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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
AS ISRAEL KEEPS UP THE ATTACKS ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, WHAT WILL THE END GAME BE?
WE DISCUSS THE STRATEGY OF ASSASSINATIONS.
AND, HOW WILL IRAN REACT, AS ISRAEL DELIVERS BATTLEFIELD BLOWS TO ITS PROXIES?
I ASK EXPERT ALI VAEZ, SENIOR ADVISER AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP.
THEN -- ♪♪♪ THE NEW FILM PUTTING A HUMAN FACE ON WHAT'S AT THE HEART OF THIS DECADES-LONG WAR.
THE STRUGGLE FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS AND STATEHOOD.
DIRECTOR FARAH NABULSI AND ACTOR SALEH BAKRI DISCUSS "THE TEACHER."
ALSO AHEAD -- >> YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE GROWING THE FOOD OR EXTRACTING THE RESOURCES OF OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES WHO ARE LOOKING DOWN ON YOU.
>> A DAUGHTER OF WORKING CLASS AMERICA CHALLENGES PEOPLE'S PRECONCEPTIONS.
SARAH SMARSH TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HER NEW BOOK, "BONE OF THE BONE."
♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE NEXT STAGE OF THE WAR AGAINST HEZBOLLAH WILL START SOON.
THOSE ARE THE WORDS OF THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER.
WHILE HIS COUNTRY CONDUCTS GROUND RAIDS INSIDE LEBANON RIGHT NOW, ACCORDING TO THE UNITED STATES.
WASHINGTON SAYS ANY GROUND INVASION COULD BE MORE LIMITED THAN ORIGINALLY THOUGHT.
OF COURSE, THE U.S. HAD CONFIDENTLY ANNOUNCED A 21-DAY CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH LAST WEEK, JUST DAYS BEFORE PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU ORDERED THE IDF TO ASSASSINATE THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH.
THE ISRAELIS ATTRIBUTED THIS DISCONNECT TO AN HONEST MISUNDERSTANDING.
BUT WILL ISRAEL'S DECAPITATION OF HEZBOLLAH IN LEBANON ACTUALLY RACHET THE WAR DOWN?
NOT IF THE PAST IS ANYTHING TO GO BY.
WHILE ISRAEL HAS DEALT BLOWS TO MANY OF ITS FOES SINCE IT WAS ATTACKED BY HAMAS A YEAR AGO, IT ALSO HAS HAD A LONG HISTORY OF ASSASSINATIONS.
JUST LOOK AT SOME OF THESE FIGURES TAKEN OUT SINCE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU BECAME PRIME MINISTER IN 1996.
TARGETED IN GAZA AND SYRIA AND BEIRUT, AND THE HAMAS LEADER IN TEHRAN JUST THIS PAST JULY.
AND YET, WAR CONTINUES TO FLARE PERIODICALLY, AND THE PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI CONFLICT AT THE HEART OF ALL OF THIS REMAINS UNRESOLVED.
JOINING ME NOW ON THIS SITUATION IS NABIL FAHMY, THE FORMER EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, AND ONLY ONE OF TWO ARAB COUNTRIES THAT HAVE A PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL.
FOREIGN MINISTER FAHMY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
COULD I JUST START BY ASKING YOU WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEAR THE IDF OR THE DEFENSE MINISTER SAY THAT THE NEXT STAGE OF THE WAR AGAINST HEZBOLLAH IS AT HAND?
>> WELL, IT'S NOT ANYTHING THAT SURPRISES ME, BECAUSE, REGRETTABLY, FOR DECADES NOW, THE ONLY REAL TOOL THAT ISRAEL HAS USED IN TRYING TO DEAL WITH CONFLICT IN THE REGION HAS BEEN FORCE.
THEY HAVE TACTICS, BUT THEY NEVER HAVE A REAL STRATEGY.
AND I WANT, IF I MAY, TO EMPHASIZE HERE, THIS HAS REALLY DANGEROUS CONSEQUENCES.
ON THE REGION, AND EVEN ON THE SECURITY LEVEL.
>> LET ME -- YEAH, SORRY.
GO AHEAD.
>> ON THE REGION, BECAUSE MORE AND MORE, I HAD THIS DISCUSSION THIS MORNING HERE IN CAIRO WITH SOME PEOPLE, I WAS ASKED, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE ISRAEL WANTS PEACE?
IS THIS THE WAY TO MOVE PEACE FORWARD?
SO, EVEN IN A COUNTRY, THE FIRST COUNTRY TO HAVE PEACE ISRAEL, THE QUESTION IS BEING RAISED NOW, ARE THE ISRAELIS REALLY IN FAVOR OF PEACE?
MY SECOND POINT IS, THE REAL THREAT IS FROM WITHIN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES AND WITHIN ISRAEL ITSELF, BECAUSE OF OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.
AND MY THIRD AND LAST POINT AND I'LL ALLOW YOU TO GO TO YOUR NEXT QUESTION, YOU VERY CORRECTLY REFERRED TO, IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, THAT THESE KINDS OF ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.
HEZBOLLAH, THAT ISRAEL TARGETED THESE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, ACTUALLY -- IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE ISRAELI ATTACKS AGAINST LEBANON IN '82, THAT'S WHEN HEZBOLLAH EMERGED, SO, LET'S BE SERIOUS HERE.
WE, IN EGYPT, ARABS WANT PEACE, BUT THE ISRAELI HAVE TO PROVE THEY WANT PEACE, NOT ONLY WANT TO PREVAIL OVER THE REGION BY FORCE.
>> LET ME JUST PUT THE COUNTERNARRATIVE TO YOU, THAT I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT STRATEGY VERSUS TACTICS, BUT CLEARLY, ISRAEL HAS REALLY SORT OF DONE ALMOST A 180 SINCE OCTOBER 7th, WHEN IT WAS AT ITS LOWEST POINT, ITS MILITARY AND ITS INTELLIGENCE HAD BEEN BREACHED BY HAMAS, AND NOW MOST ANALYSTS ARE SAYING THAT IT'S DEALING VERY SIGNIFICANT BLOWS, IT HAS, TO HAMAS, IT HAS TO HEZBOLLAH, IT IS TO IRAN AND TO SYRIA.
WOULD YOU AGREE, FOR THIS MOMENT, THAT NETANYAHU HAS REVERSED HIS FORTUNES?
>> AH, YES.
I DO THINK THAT WITHIN ISRAEL ITSELF, YOU'VE SEEN NOW MUCH MORE IN A POSITIVE SENSE THAN A NEGATIVE SENSE, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT HE'S CHANGED TACTICS, BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD A CONFLICT FOR OVER 70 YEARS.
SO, THIS EPISODE OF VIOLENCE AND COUNTERVIOLENCE IS SIMPLY A TACTIC IN THIS PROCESS.
WE WANT TO END VIOLENCE ON ALL SIDES AND ACHIEVE PEACE.
YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE THAT WITHOUT DEALING WITH THE CANCER IN ISSUE.
THE OCCUPATION ITSELF.
>> CAN I JUST TALK AGAIN ABOUT THE -- THE POLICY OF TARGETED ASSASSINATIONS, JUST, I MEAN, BASICALLY, ASSASSINATIONS, WHICH, LET'S NOT FORGET, HAVE ALSO KILLED A LOT OF CIVILIANS, ACCORDING TO THE AUTHORITIES ON THE GROUND.
WE PUT UP A PICTURE OF MANY WHO HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATED OVER THE LAST 30-ODD YEARS, AND ONE OF THOSE WHO ISRAEL ATTEMPTED TO ASSASSINATE WAS IN THE '90s, AND BASICALLY, THE MOSSAD AGENTS TRIED TO INJECT A POISON INTO HIS EAR, AND APPARENTLY DID, BUT WHEN THE KING OF JORDAN AT THE TIME GOT WIND OF IT, HE DEMANDED NETANYAHU SEND THE ANTIDOTE TO MAN WAS, AND A ACTUALLY SAVED HIS LIFE.
HERE IS A FRAGMENT OF AN INTERVIEW ABOUT THAT THAT I HAD WITH HIM IN EGYPT, BACK IN 2012.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> Translator: BUT GOD SAVED ME, WHEN THEY TRIED TO ASSASSINATE ME.
>> KING HUSSEIN SAVED YOU.
>> ALLAH SAVED ME.
THEN KING HUSSEIN.
>> KING HUSSEIN DEMANDED THE POISON AND THE ANTIDOTE -- >> Translator: THIS, AND THIS IS A STANDING THAT'S GREAT ON THE PART OF KING HUSSEIN, I'M STILL LOYAL TO HIM AND I PRAY FOR HIM, AND I AM OBLIGED FOR THIS COURAGEOUS STANCE THAT FORCED NETANYAHU TO GIVE THE ANTIDOTE.
AND THANK GOD I WAS HEALED.
BUT I MENTION THIS IN THE VEIN OF THE ISRAELI CRIME.
>> FOREIGN MINISTER FAHMY, I BRING THAT UP, BECAUSE HE'S ONE OF THE RARE ONES WHO GOT AWAY, SO TO SPEAK, AND IS STILL A HAMAS LEADER.
I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU AGAIN, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE RESULT OF KILLING SOMEBODY AS POWERFUL AS NASRALLAH, THE RESULT ON HEZBOLLAH, THE RESULT ON IRAN, EVEN, THE RESULT ON THE REGION?
>> YOU WILL HAVE MORE OPPOSITION GROUPS LIKE HAMAS, LIKE HEZBOLLAH, AND YOU WILL ALSO NOW, PURSUING A VERY FORCEFUL ASSASSINATION POLICY, BUT ALSO A POLICY WHERE YOU DRAW NO DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER BETWEEN CIVILIANS AND COMBATANTS, WHICH YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE, IS THE REACTION.
IT'S NOT -- IT'S REALLY GOING TO BRING THE CONFLICT BACK TO THE PEOPLE.
AND WHEN I SAY BACK TO THE PEOPLE, I MEAN CIVILIANS.
AND THAT'S GOING TO ACTUALLY BE NOT ONLY IN ARAB TERRITORIES, BUT ACTUALLY WITHIN -- WITHIN ISRAEL, AND THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS CONSEQUENCE ON EITHER SIDE.
>> AND GAZA IS ON YOUR BORDER, OBVIOUSLY, RAFA IS THE -- IS THE BORDER THERE, AND OBVIOUSLY YOU AND QATAR, AND OTHERS, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.
CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER THAT'S AT ALL LIKELY, IS IT STILL IN THE OFFING?
AND -- AND WHETHER YOU THINK HAMAS HAS BEEN MATERIALLY WEAKENED.
IT CLEARLY HAS.
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF THE FIGHTERS KILLED.
SINWAR, WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM IN A LONG TIME, AND CLEARLY, HANIYEH WAS KILLED.
SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK, HOW DO YOU JUDGE THE STATE OF HAMAS RIGHT NOW?
>> WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE VERY STRONG FORCE USED BY ISRAEL, WITHOUT ANY ACCOUNTABILITY, BE THAT AGAINST HAMAS OR CIVILIANS, HAS HAD AN EFFECT ON THE WHOLE STRUCTURE OF HAMAS IN GAZA.
WITH THAT BEING SAID, THIS IS ONLY -- THIS MOST RECENT PHASE OF THE PROCESS.
THE ISSUE I'M MAKING IS, THE MORE YOU USE FORCE, EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY FEEL YOU'RE GETTING SOME IMMEDIATE SECURITY, YOU'RE ACTUALLY CREATING MORE OPPOSITION DOWN THE ROAD THAN YOU HAD IN THE PAST, AND THAT'S WHAT THE HISTORY BOOKS TELL YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
THE ONLY WAY FORWARD FOR SECURITY FOR ARABS AND ISRAELIS IS TO ACHIEVE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
>> AND THAT, I HAVE TO SAY, AS YOU KNOW, BETTER THAN I DO, SEEMS FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY, BECAUSE THIS CURRENT ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER HAS DISMISSED THAT OUT OF HAND.
SO, WE'LL SEE HOW THAT GOES IN THE FUTURE.
BUT FOR NOW, FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.
>>> SO, WHAT ABOUT IRAN?
HOW DOES IT UNDERSTAND THE ELIMINATION OF ITS MAIN REGIONAL ALLY, HASAN NASRALLAH?
THE U.S. IS RAISING THE ALARM ABOUT A POSSIBLE REVENGE ATTACK BY TEHRAN ON ISRAEL.
FOR MORE NOW, I'M JOINED BY ALI VAEZ, HE'S DIRECTOR OF THE IRAN PROJECT AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP.
ALI VAEZ, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
SO, EVERYBODY'S BEEN WAITING FOR THE SO-CALLED IRANIAN RESPONSE AFTER THE ASSASSINATION OF HANIYEH ON IRAN'S TERRITORY ITSELF.
IT HASN'T HAPPENED, AND IRAN HAS BEEN SIGNALING SOME KIND OF RESTRAINT WHILE IT WAS AT THE U.N. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN NOW?
>> IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.
LOOK, THE REALITY IS THAT IRAN'S OPTIONS REALLY RANGE FROM UNPALATABLE TO OUTRIGHT UGLY.
IN THE SAME WAY THAT IT FACED SIMILAR OPTIONS WHEN HANIYEH WAS KILLED, IN THE SENSE THAT IF IRAN DOES RESPOND, DIRECTLY OR EVEN INDIRECTLY, IT MIGHT ACTUALLY PROVIDE JUSTIFICATION FOR ISRAEL TO EXPAND THE WAR, WHICH IS ONE THING THAT IRAN HAS NOT WANTED, AND IF IT'S DIRECTLY INVOLVED, IRAN IS DIRECTLY INVOLVED AND CAUSES DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ON ISRAELI SOIL, THEN IT HAS PROVIDED REASON FOR ISRAEL TO STRIKE IRAN DIRECTLY.
AND THIS IS A MUCH STRONGER, SUPERIOR MILITARY POWER, BACKED BY THE WORLD'S NUMBER ONE SUPERPOWER MILITARILY, AND SO, THIS IS A BIG RISK FOR THE IRANIANS.
BUT IF THEY DON'T RESPOND, THEY ALSO -- THEY RISK LOSING FACE AND CREDIBILITY.
THEIR ALLIANCE SYSTEM, BASICALLY, BOILS DOWN TO ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR NONE.
AND THAT'S ALSO VERY DANGEROUS FOR THE IRANIANS.
AND I THINK LOOKING BACK AT THE PATTERN OF THE PAST FEW MONTHS, AND THE FACT THAT THEY DIDN'T RESPOND TO HANIYEH'S KILLING AND DECIDED TO DEMONSTRATE RESTRAINT, HAS CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED THAT ISRAEL HAS GOT THE WRONG LESSON, AND IS CONTINUING TO PUSH THE ENVELOPE, SO, I THINK THERE'S SOME SERIOUS RETHINKING HAPPENING IN TEHRAN NOW.
>> LET ME PLAY YOU A BIT OF AN INTERVIEW, AN EXCERPT THAT I CONDUCTED WITH JAVAD ZARIF, TWO DAYS BEFORE NASRALLAH WAS ASSASSINATED.
AND HE ALSO SORT OF REITERATED THAT -- I THINK HE USED THE WORD ENTRAPPED BY ISRAEL, INTO GOING, YOU KNOW, TO INCURRING ANOTHER WAR.
HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.
I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT IT AFTERWARD.
>> IRAN HAS EXERCISED RESTRAINT WHEN ISRAEL CONDUCTED MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST IRAN, CONDUCTED TERRORIST OPERATIONS, KILLING THE LEADER OF HAMAS, WHO WAS ATTENDING THE INAUGURATION OF OUR PRESIDENT, OF ALL THINGS.
AND WE EXERCISED RESTRAINT.
WE BELIEVE THAT HEZBOLLAH IS CAPABLE OF DEFENDING ITSELF.
IT HAS BEEN EXERCISING RESTRAINT IN NOT DOING SO.
IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME IN BEFORE HEZBOLLAH HAS TO TAKE ITS DEFENSE INTO ITS OWN HANDS, AND MAYBE THE SITUATION WILL GET OUT OF HAND AT THAT TIME.
>> SO, YOU SEE, I MEAN, CLEARLY PUTTING THE ONUS ON HEZBOLLAH, ON NOT SUGGESTING IT WOULD GET INVOLVED.
BUT DOES THERE COME A POINT, AS YOU WERE SAYING, WHERE IRAN IS FORCED, I GUESS, FOR THE WHOLE DETERRENT REASON, THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN GOING AT IT SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
IT WAS SAID IT NEEDED TO RE-ESTABLISH DETERRENCE.
FIRST, YOU THINK IT HAS RE-ESTABLISHED DETERRENCE, ISRAEL?
AND DOES IRAN HAVE TO COUNTER TO ESTABLISH DETERRENCE OR NOT?
>> WELL, IRAN'S DETERRENCE IS CLEARLY IN RUINS RIGHT NOW.
AND THIS IS WHY I THINK THERE IS A RETHINK HAPPENING IN TEHRAN, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THE POLICY OF DEMONSTRATING RESTRAINT AS THE FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER WAS SAYING, WHICH WAS BASED ON THIS LOGIC THAT ISRAEL WANTS TO GOAT THEM INTO A TRAP THAT WOULD THEN RESULT IN PULLING THE UNITED STATES INTO A DIRECT CONFRONTATION WITH IRAN, HAS ONLY TURNED OUT TO BE A TRAP THAT THEY DIDN'T EXPECT.
A TRAP THAT ISRAEL HAS NOW EFFECTIVELY MANAGED TO CUT IRAN'S HANDS AND COMPLETELY DISMANTLE HEZBOLLAH'S LEADERSHIP IN WAYS THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE.
BUT NONE OF THIS CHANGES THE FUNDAMENTALS, CHRISTIANE, WHICH IS THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, HEZBOLLAH AND ALL OF THESE OTHER GROUPS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE SHIELDS THAT WOULD PROTECT IRAN.
NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
AND THAT IS WHY I THINK THE OPTION OF PREFERENCE FOR IRAN, EVEN UNDER THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES, WOULD BE TO TRY TO REGROUP AND REHABILITATE HEZBOLLAH, AND WE KNOW, OF COURSE, HEZBOLLAH'S CAPABILITIES HAVE BEEN DIMINISHED AS A RESULT OF ISRAELI STRIKES.
WE DON'T KNOW IF THEY'VE BEEN COMPLETELY DEPLETED.
BUT WHATEVER REMAINS OF HEZBOLLAH'S FORMIDABLE CAPACITIES, IF THEY WANT TO USE IT, PROBABLY IRANIANS WOULD COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT'S A QUESTION OF NOW OR NEVER.
AND THAT WOULD BE IRAN'S OPTION OF CHOICE, RATHER THAN GETTING INTO A DIRECT CONFLICT WITH THE U.S. AND ISRAEL ITSELF.
>> CAN I ASK YOU WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE UNITED STATES AMIDST ALL OF THIS?
I MEAN, IT'S BEEN UNABLE, AS I PUT TO THE FOREIGN MINISTER, FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER OF EGYPT, TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE, TO BROKER A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL.
IT CLEARLY DIDN'T STOP ISRAEL FROM ITS OPERATIONS IN LEBANON, AND IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ACTUAL GROUND WAR IN LEB LEBANON, WHICH THE U.S. IS CONFIRMING AND SO HAS THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER.
IS THIS A RARE TIME, AND THEREFORE, IS IT DANGEROUS THAT THE U.S. HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO HAVE ANY INFLUENCE ON ANY OF THE ACTORS IN THAT REGION?
>> WELL, IT'S ABSOLUTELY DISASTROUS FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CONSTANTLY WARNED ISRAEL AGAINST PUSHING THE ENVELOPE TOO FAR, AND ISRAEL HAS IGNORED THE U.S.'S ADVICE AND HAS CONTINUED TO ESCALATE TENSIONS.
IT IS TRUE THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH IT, AND SOME OF THE WARNINGS THAT IS BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD ABOUT THE ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES OF ISRAELI ACTIONS HAVE NOT MATERIALIZED.
BUT THAT IS EXACTLY THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT CREATE OVERCONFIDENCE AND RESULT IN OVERREACH, WHICH WOULD THEN EVENTUALLY BACKFIRE.
AND REMEMBER, ISRAEL IS HISTORICALLY VERY GOOD AT WINNING TACTICALLY, BUT THE IRANIANS ARE VERY GOOD AT WINNING STRATEGICALLY AND PLAYING THE LONG GAME.
AND THERE'S ANOTHER CONSIDERATION HERE THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.
THE MORE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SUCCEEDS IN WEAKENING IRAN'S REGIONAL DETERRENCE, THE MORE HE FAILS BY PUSHING IRAN'S TOWARD THE ULTIMATE DETERRENCE, AND THAT IS NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND GIVEN IRAN'S PROXIMITY TO NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAPABILITY, THIS IS A PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS MOMENT, AND UNFORTUNATELY, AGAIN, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS COMPLETELY ABSENT IN ALL OF THESE DISCUSSIONS, BECAUSE IT HAS PROVEN TO BE THE JUNIOR PARTNER IN ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH ITS STRONGEST ALLY IN THE REGION, ISRAEL.
>> OH, THAT'S GOING TO STING, THAT'S GOING TO STING THE U.S. FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT.
BUT LET ME JUST SAY THIS, I OBVIOUSLY ASKED ZARIF ABOUT IT, AND HE SAID, QUOTE, WE DO NOT WANT TO BREAK OUT, BECAUSE WE HAVE DECIDED THAT IT'S JUST NOT IN OUR INTEREST, AND WILL NOT AUGMENT OR SECURITY.
I KNOW THEY'RE MUCH CLOSER TO IT, BUT WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE OTHERS, THE NEW PRESIDENT, IN NEW YORK, DID YOU HAVE ANY, YOU KNOW, HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO ABSORB ANYTHING FROM WHAT THEY WERE THINKING?
THERE WAS ONE QUOTE, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TRUE, THAT HE SAID HE WAS POTENTIALLY READY TO LAY DOWN ARMS IF ISRAEL DOES THE SAME.
IS THAT EVEN LIKELY THAT HE DID SAY THAT?
>> WELL, IT'S ON TAPE, AND HE SAID SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES, BUT MOSTLY IN A KIND OF CONCEPT YULE DISCUSSION.
THE REALITY IS, THIS IS A ADMINISTRATION IN IRAN THAT IS VERY OPEN ENGAGEMENT WITH THE WEST, AND IS VERY KEEN ON GETTING SOME SORT OF ECONOMIC REPRIEVE, EVEN IN THE FORM OF VERY NARROW, LIMITED TRANSACTIONAL DEALS WITH THE WEST.
I THINK THE PROBLEM THAT THEY HAVE AND THEY PROBABLY GOT A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF IT IN THIS WEEK OF DIPLOMATIC SPEED DATING IN NEW YORK WAS THAT SOME OF IRAN'S OBJECTIVES WERE IN CONFLICT WITH ONE ANOTHER.
IT'S VERY HARD TO GET SANCTIONS LIFTED FROM THE WEST, WHEN YOU'RE ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE WEST WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE.
BECAUSE IRAN IS ASSISTING RUSSIA, OR YOU'RE ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE UNITED STATES WHEN IT GETS TO TENSIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
AND OF COURSE NASRALLAH'S KILLING HAS JUST SHARPENED ALL OF THESE CHOICES FOR THE IRANIANS, BUT I THINK THEY ARE, AT LEAST UNTIL LAST WEEK, THEY WERE DESPERATE FOR SOME SORT OF A NUCLEAR DEAL, WHICH NOW IS IN QUESTION.
>> ALL RIGHT.
ALI VAEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.
>>> NOW, GETTING BACK TO THE HUGE ISSUE AT THE HEART OF ALL OF THIS, THERE HAVE BEEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS KILLED BY ISRAEL AFTER THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS BY HAMAS.
BUT TOO OFTEN, THE HUMAN STORIES AT THE HEART OF THIS CRISIS GO UNREPORTED.
BUT MY NEXT GUESTS, THE DIRECTOR FARAH NABULSI, HAS TRIED TO GIVE THEM A VOICE WITH HER NEW FILM, IT'S CALLED "THE TEACHER," ABOUT A PALESTINIAN MAN NAMED BASEM WHO TURNED AWAY FROM MILL TAN SI TO BECOME AN ENGLISH TEACHER.
BUT WHEN ONE OF HIS PUPILS SEES HIS BROTHER MURDERED BY A SETTLER, EVENTS BEGIN TO SPIN OUT OF CONTROL.
HERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF THE TRAILER.
>> HELLO, MISS LISA.
WELCOME TO OUR HOME.
>> YOU'RE NOT CONFINED IN THAT PRISON ANYMORE.
YOU HAVE TO FINISH SCHOOL.
PLEASE, MAN.
>> AND FARAH NABULSI JOINS US, WITH THE STAR OF THE FILM, SALEH BAKRI.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
A REALLY DRAMATIC TELLING OF THE HEART OF THIS SITUATION.
WHAT ACTUALLY CAUSED YOU TO TAKE THIS ISSUE AND MAKE A FILM ABOUT IT?
>> SO, CHRISTIANE, I'M PALESTINIAN BY HERITAGE, BY BLOOD, BORN, RAISED, EDUCATED IN THE UK HERE, BUT I TRAVEL TO PALESTINE A LOT, AND I'VE WITNESSED WITH MY OWN EYES, AS WELL AS SPOKEN WITH DOZENS AND DOZENS OF PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED FIRST-HAND MUCH OF THE CRUEL, ABSURD THINGS THAT TAKE PLACE IN THE SCREENPLAY, SUCH AS PALESTINIAN CHILDREN BEING PROCESSED THROUGH ISRAELI MILITARY DETENTION, OR HOME DEMOLITIONS, OR ILLEGAL ISRAELI SETTLER VIOLENCE AND VANDALISM, AND I FELT VERY COMPELLED TO TELL THESE STORIES AND LEND MY ARTISTIC EXPRESSION TO THEM, AS WELL AS A STORY I CAME ACROSS DURING MY TRAVELS, AND I DISTIPGTLY REMEMBER THE UK MEDIA, MAYBE EVEN YOURSELF COVERING THIS, WHEN AN ISRAELI OCCUPATION SOLDIER WAS CAPTURED IN 2006, AND IN 2011, HE WAS RELEASED FOR OVER 1,000 PALESTINIAN POLITICAL PRISONERS.
HUNDREDS OF WHOM WERE WOMEN AND CHILDREN, HUNDREDS OF WHOM WERE BEING HELD IN ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION, WITHOUT TRIAL OR CHARGE.
AND AT THE TIME, I JUST THOUGHT THIS WAS AN INSANE BALANCE IN NEVER COULD I HAVE IMAGINED, THOUGH, THAT THAT IMBALANCE AND VALUE FOR HUMAN LIFE WOULD BE MAGNIFIED AT THE TIME OF THIS FILM'S RELEASE, WHERE WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS KILLED, MAIMED, BURNED, BLINDED, NEARLY 2 MILLION DISPLACED, SO -- THAT IMBALANCE AND VALUE FOR HUMAN LIFE, I DON'T KNOW WHERE WE STAND WITH THAT.
>> AND WHEN WAS THE FILM SHOT?
OBVIOUSLY WAY BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, RIGHT?
YOU ARE PALESTINIAN YOURSELF.
>> OF COURSE.
>> DO YOU LIVE IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK?
>> NO, I LIVE IN PALESTINE 1948, WHICH BECAME ISRAEL TODAY.
>> OKAY.
SO, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS FILM?
WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE OF THE HUMAN STORIES, MAYBE YOUR OWN FAMILY, FRIENDS HAD EXPERIENCED?
>>.
>> WE ARE LIVING IN PALESTINE, AND PALESTINE IS SCATTERED, IS -- WE ARE NOT ABLE TO LIVE A NORMAL LIFE, MEANING, WE CANNOT MOVE IN OUR OWN HOMELAND FREELY.
MEANS, IF I WANT TO WORK WITH PEOPLE FROM GAZA, I CANNOT, WITH ARTISTS FROM GAZA, I CANNOT.
I'VE NEVER BEEN TO GAZA.
IF I WANT TO WORK WITH ARTISTS FROM THE WEST BANK, THEY CANNOT GET TO WHERE I LIVE, BECAUSE THEY NEED A PERMIT FROM THE ISRAELI ARMY, AND USUALLY ARTISTS DON'T WANT TO GET PERMITS FROM ARMIES, THEY WANT TO BE FREE.
AND THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR BEING FREE.
SO, THIS IS -- THIS IS WHERE I LIVE, AND -- AND I EXPERIENCE THAT EVERY DAY, LIKE EVERY DAY IN THE MORNING, I WAKE UP, AND IN MY MIND, WELL, I'M STILL HERE, THE OCCUPATION IS STILL THERE, AND I'M LIVING THAT.
SO -- SO -- PEOPLE IN THE WORLD -- PEOPLE WHO DOESN'T EXPERIENCE OCCUPATION, THEY DON'T THINK OF THAT, THEY GO -- THEY WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, THEY HAVE A NEW DAY TO LIVE.
>> WHEN I WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, I THINK, OKAY, ANOTHER DAY, I NEED TO GET, YOU KNOW, GET MYSELF PREPARED FOR ANOTHER DAY.
>> SO, EVERY DAY IS A BATTLE FOR SURVIVAL.
>> EVERY DAY.
IT'S A CONSTANT FIGHT.
>> SO, FARAH, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU BUILD A STORY AROUND A TEACHER, EVERYBODY CAN IDENTIFY WITH A TEACHER, ALL OVER THE WORLD.
TWO BOYS, TEENAGERS, EVERYBODY CAN IDENTIFY WITH THAT.
THEY HAVE -- THEY HAVE THE HOME, WHICH THEY SEE DEMOLISHED AND SIGH THEIR MOTHER IN DISTRESS, AND THEY HAVE AN OLIVE GROVE, THEIR FINANCIAL LIFELINE, WHICH THEN GETS BURNT DOWN BY A SETTLER.
AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE -- OKAY, SO, LET ME PLAY THIS CLIP, BECAUSE THIS IS ABOUT THE HOUSE DEMOLITION.
>> SO, FARAH, YOU HAVE WRITTEN THE STORY FOR "THE TEACHER," TO DISADVISE REVENGE, BECAUSE IT'S JUST GOING TO BE WORSE.
WHAT CAUSED YOU TO WRITE THAT DIALOGUE LIKE THAT?
WHAT MADE YOU CREATE THIS MAN, WHO HAS OBVIOUSLY SEEN TERRIBLE THINGS, AS WELL, TRY TO GET THE KIDS TO -- TO DO -- TO DO IT DIFFERENTLY?
>> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE WORD DIFFERENTLY.
THIS IS A FILM ABOUT THE LOVE OF A PARENT AND IT'S ABOUT THE PURSUIT OF JUSTICE.
AND IT'S A DEEPLY HUMAN STORY THAT IS CENTERED AROUND THESE SPECIFIC CHARACTERS, THAT IS SET IN THIS BRUTAL, VIOLENT REALITY OF MILITARY OCCUPATION AND COLONIZATION AND APARTHEID.
SO, I'M MORE INTERESTED IN THE HUMAN DYNAMICS.
I'M INTERESTED IN THE REAL-LIFE CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES THAT DRIVE PEOPLE TO TAKE THE ACTIONS THEY TAKE, AND MAKE THE DECISIONS THEY MAKE.
RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, BRANDING THEM -- THE SOCIO-POLITICAL YOU SEE, THE HOME DEMOLITIONS AND SO FORTH, IS PRESENT AND INTEGRAL TO THE STORY, BUT MY FOCUS IS ON THE PERSONAL.
>> SO, I'M JUST GOING TO -- I'M GOING TO READ SOME OF THE STATS THAT WE HAVE, WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, SINCE -- SINCE OCTOBER 7th, THERE'S BEEN A MASSIVE UPTICK IN HOUSE DEMOLITIONS, IN VIOLENCE BY SETTLERS AND THE MILITARY AGAINST PALESTINIANS ON, YOU KNOW, PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS WHO HAVE HAD TO FLEE.
APPARENTLY IT'S REALLY GOT -- >> PRIOR TO OCTOBER 7th, IT WAS AN ALL-TIME HIGH.
>> AND NOW IT'S AN ALL-TIME ALL-TIME HIGH.
SETTLER VIOLENCE INCREASED AFTER, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE RIGHT WING CAME IN, BY A HUGE PERCENTAGE, INCIDENTS, YOU KNOW, IN THE WEEK POST-OCTOBER 7th WERE 40% HIGHER THAN THE HEIGHT, JUST BEFORE.
>> RIGHT.
>> BUT ONE OF THE MOST DRAMATIC SCENES IS WHEN YOU, I THINK YOU COME ACROSS THE FIRE IN THE -- IN THE OLIVE GROVE, AND THE TWO BOYS ARE TRYING TO GET THE SETTLERS TO STOP BURNING DOWN THEIR OLIVE GROVES.
I WANT TO PLAY THAT.
♪♪♪ >> SO, THAT THERE IS THE CRIME, WELL, THE BEGINNING OF THE CRIME, AND THEN SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS.
ARE YOU -- ARE WE ALLOWED TO SAY -- >> IT'S IN THE TRAILER.
>> IT'S NOT THE FULL, FILL SPOILER ALERT.
SO, THE OLDER BROTHER, WHO IS TRYING TO STOP THE SETTLERS FROM BURNING THEIR OLIVE GROVE GETS SHOT BY A SETTLER.
AND YOUR CHARACTER IS TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO -- TO HELP THOSE -- THOSE BOYS.
WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND NOW, AS YOU -- I SAW YOU LOOKING VERY CLOSELY, AND I KNOW IT TOOK YOU A LONG TIME TO ACTUALLY SEE THE WHOLE FILM.
>> WELL, I WAS THINKING THAT THESE OLIVE TREES, IT'S OUR LAND, IT'S THE PALESTINIAN LAND.
AND IT WAS ALL STOLEN.
AND IT WAS ALL BURNED.
AND THERE IS NO PEACE SINCE THIS SYMBOL OF PEACE, THERE'S NO PEACE IN PALESTINE SINCE IT WAS STOLEN.
AND -- AND THE PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO LEAVE.
NOW, YOU KNOW, I LONG -- I LONG -- I'M LONGING FOR, LIKE, MOST OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE FOR US TO RETURN BACK TO OUR HOMELAND.
AND TO LIVE TOGETHER WITH THE ISRAELIS WHO ARE THERE IN PEACE AND IN A DECENT LIFE, AND WITH DIGNITY.
YOU KNOW?
AND WHEN I SEE THIS SCENE, I THINK ABOUT THE WHOLE TRAGEDY, AND, YOU KNOW, I CANNOT ALSO DISTINCT MY PERSONAL PAIN AS A PALESTINIAN FROM THE COLLECTIVE PAIN, AND IT IS IN ME, WHEREVER I GO.
AND WHAT I DO, I DO LIFE I DO -- THIS IS THE CULTURE OF LIFE, AND -- IN FRONT OF THE CULTURE OF DEATH, THAT IS SPREAD BY RUTHLESS REGIME.
>> THERE ARE A LOT OF TWISTS AND TURNS, BUT JUST PICKING UP ON WHAT SALEH JUST SAID, ABOUT TRYING TO LIVE IN PEACE AND DIGNITY WITH ISRAELI NEIGHBORS, YOU BRING A STORY THREAD INTO THIS FILM, WHICH IS ACTUALLY ABOUT, I BELIEVE, AN AMERICAN JEWISH FAMILY WHOSE SON HAS COME TO ISRAEL, JOINED THE IDF, AND NOW HE'S KIDNAPPED.
AND -- AND THE TEACHER'S CHARACTER, WHO IS ALSO A FATHER, WHO ALSO HAS A TRAGEDY WITH HIS SON WHICH I'M NOT GOING TO SAY RIGHT NOW, COMMUNICATES IN A HALLWAY WITH THIS AMERICAN JEWISH FATHER, WHO IS TRYING TO GET HIS SON BACK, AND YOU HAVE THEM SAY SOMETHING ACTUALLY REALLY REMARKABLE.
WELL, I THINK IT'S REMARKABLE, YOU KNOW -- >> THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION.
>> THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION, BUT THE AMERICAN -- THE JEWISH AMERICAN EXPRESSES SORROW FOR THE PALESTINIAN FATHER, AND THE PALESTINIAN FATHER SAYS, WELL, I'M SURE HE'LL, YOU KNOW, HE'LL BE RELEASED, YOUR SON, BECAUSE THEY VALUE, YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF -- >> THEY'LL KEEP HIM ALIVE, AND HE SAYS, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
HE SAYS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT YOUR PEOPLE BELIEVE YOUR SON IS WORTH 1,000 OF MINE.
>> RIGHT.
SO, THAT WAS, A, YOU MADE A POINT, BUT B, YOU DID BRING IN THE OTHER SIDE A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE IS -- YOU KNOW, ON MANY OCCASIONS, ANOTHER DIMENSION.
>> YOU KNOW, WHEN I CAME ACROSS THIS STORY OF GILAD SHALIT, I REMEMBER THINKING TO MYSELF, WELL, TO THAT INDIVIDUAL'S PARENT, THEIR LOVED ONES, WHAT ARE THEY WORTH, YOU KNOW?
IF I ASK YOU WHAT YOUR CHILD IS WORTH OR MY CHILD IS WORTH, WE SAY THE WORLD, RIGHT?
AT THE END OF THE DAY, I REMEMBER THINKING THAT, AS WELL.
AND WHEN ONE IS PROVIDING A SORT OF HUMANITY TO YOUR OWN CHARACTERS, I DON'T SEE THE NEED TO DEHUMANIZE ANYONE ELSE IN THE PROCESS IN MY FILM MAKING PROCESS.
SO, I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THAT DYNAMIC AND THAT PARALLEL OF TWO FATHERS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, BEAR IN MIND WHAT I ALSO FOUND INTERESTING WAS THAT IN THE CASE OF BASEM, HIS LOSS ISSER REVOKABLE, IT'S IRREVERSIBLE, AND HE HAS NO RECOURSE FOR JUSTICE.
IN THE CASE OF SIMON COHEN, THE FATHER, HE HAS A POWER BEHIND HIM.
HE HAS THE GOVERNMENT BEHIND END, HE -- HE'S OKAY AS IT WERE.
WHERE AS FOR BASEM AND MOST PALESTINIANS, UNFORTUNATELY, NO MATTER HOW BIG THE CRIME OR THE LOSS, WHEN THE PEOPLE YOU NEED TO TURN TO FOR JUSTICE ARE ONE IN THE SAME AND COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE SYSTEM IS PERVERTED.
>> THERE'S A VERY, VERY POWERFUL SCENE INSIDE AN ISRAELI COURT, WHICH THE PALESTINIANS ONLY HAVE ACCESS TO, AND THE KILLING OF THE BROTHER IS JUST DISMISSED, THEY JUST SAY, NO PROOF, NO CASE, NO INVESTIGATION, NO NOTHING, AND THERE IS NO JUSTICE, NO EQUAL JUSTICE -- >> EXACTLY.
>> FOR PALESTINIANS.
BUT FINALLY, WHAT DO YOU HOPE PEOPLE WILL TAKE AWAY FROM THIS?
WHAT DO YOU WANT THE ORDINARY VIEWER, THE MOVIE-GOER, TO KNOW?
>> NOT TO GIVE UP, TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, TO RESIST.
TO KNOW THAT THERE IS ALWAYS A HOPE, AND WE SAY IN ARABIC -- [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] THERE IS NO RIGHT.
WE DON'T LOSE A RIGHT IF WE ARE ASKING FOR IT, IF WE CONTINUOUSLY ASKING FOR THIS RIGHT.
SO, WE ARE NOT -- WE ARE NOT GOING TO STOP.
AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE RESISTING AND DOING THIS WORK FOR ME, THIS IS WHY I DO -- THIS IS WHY -- THIS IS THE RESISTANCE I KNOW TO DO, AND I HOPE WE CONTINUE RESISTANCE UNTIL WE GET OUR RIGHTS BACK.
>> IN THE MEANTIME, IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE THESE STORIES, WHICH SO FEW PEOPLE -- BECAUSE EVEN JOURNALISTS NOW ARE HEAVILY RESTRICTED, EVEN ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.
JUST FINALLY, DO YOU HAVE A DISTRIBUTOR, HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO SELL THIS FILM?
>> THIS IS A BRITISH/PALESTINIAN FILM, WE DO NOT HAVE A DISTRIB YOUR IN THE UK AND IRELAND, SO, AT THE MOMENT WITH THE CINEMA RELEASE, IT IS SELF-DISTRIBUTED, BUT I THINK IT'S SUCH A PERTINENT FILM -- >> AND THE BRITISH FILM INSTITUTE, FILM FESTIVAL IS HAPPENING IN THE NEXT WEEK.
IS IT ENTERED?
>> NO, WE'VE DONE ALL OUR FESTIVALS AND NOW IT'S THE CINEMA RELEASE.
>> WELL, GOOD LUCK.
>> THANK YOU.
>> REALLY TOUCHING STORY.
>> THANK YOU.
>> REALLY INTERESTING.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR BEING IN.
"THE TEACHER," WHICH IS NOW OUT IN CINEMAS ACROSS THE UK AND IRELAND.
>>> SO, IN THE UNITED STATES, STORM HELENE HAS SOWN DESTRUCTION IN THE RURAL MIDWEST, ACROSS POVERTY-STRICKEN APPALACHIA.
LIFE-THREATENING FLOODING LEAVING RESIDENTS IN LIMBO.
WHITE WORKING CLASS REGIONS LIKE THESE HAVE BEEN STAIR OWE TYPICALLY ATTACHED TO THE REPUBLICAN MAGA MOVEMENT, BUT OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THE PICTURE IS FAR MORE COMPLEX.
AUTHOR SARAH SMARSH TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HER NEW BOOK "BONE TO THE BONE."
>> SARAH, WELCOME.
>> THANK YOU.
>> WE LAST TALKED TO ABOUT YOUR MEMOIR "HEARTLAND," NOW YOU ARE BACK WITH A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS.
IS THERE A THROUGH-LINE, A CONNECTING TISSUE AMONG THOSE TWO?
>> WHILE THIS NEW COLLECTION, "BONE OF THE BONE" INVOLVES THE LAST DECADE OF MY WORK AS A JOURNALIST, ACTUALLY, FOR MORE LIKE 20 YEARS, HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT INDEED THE COMMON THEME BETWEEN "HEARTLAND" AND THIS NEW BOOK, WHICH IS SOCIOECONOMIC CLASS, WHICH REMAINS AN UNDERDISCUSSED AND MAYBE POORLY ARTICULATED ASPECT OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, SO, I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT, WRITING ABOUT THAT FOR A LONG TIME.
HAS A LOT TO DO WHERE I COME FROM.
AND THIS COLLECTION IS A DIFFERENT FORM, BUT VERY MUCH THE SAME MESSAGE.
>> AS YOU POINTED OUT, WE DON'T TEND TO TALK ABOUT CLASS IN THIS COUNTRY IN THE WAY THAT PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES DO.
SO, DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU FIRST FIGURED OUT THERE WAS THIS THING ABOUT CLASS, AND THAT IT DID AFFECT YOUR LIFE?
>> I DO.
SO, GROWING UP, MY FIFTH GENERATION WHEAT FARM IN KANSAS WHERE I WAS RAISED WAS TECHNICALLY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, SO, INDEED, WE WERE POOR BY FEDERAL MEASURES.
I NEVER WOULD HAVE USED THAT WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF, BECAUSE WE HAD ENOUGH TO EAT AND WE HAD A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD.
THERE WAS A LOT OF WORK THAT WENT INTO KEEPING THOSE TWO THINGS TRUE, AND A LOT OF PRECARETY ABOUT THOSE SITUATIONS, BUT NONETHELESS, YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T HAVE CONSIDERED MYSELF QUOTE UNQUOTE POOR.
WHEN I LEFT THE FARM TO BECOME A FIRST GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT, EVEN AT A STATE UNIVERSITY, I FOUND THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS LOOKING AT KIDS, THEY GOT A CAR FOR HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATIONS, OR THEIR PARENTS SENT THEM CHECKS AND WERE PAYING THEIR WAY -- I COULDN'T FIND A WORD FOR IT.
AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT WHILE I DID GET ACADEMIC SCHOLARSHIPS AND, YOU KNOW, I GOT A PELL GRANT, BECAUSE OF OUR INCOME AND ALL THAT, NUB THELESS, MY IDENTITY WAS OFTEN PRESUMED TO BE AN ECONOMIC PRIVILEGE, ALONG WITH THE RACIAL PRIVILEGE.
ONE OF THOSE CERTAINLY TRUE, AND THE OTHER ONE WAS NOT SO MUCH.
SO, I FOUND THAT THE LANGUAGE WAS LACKING.
>> WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT I NOTICED ABOUT THIS BOOK, I DON'T KNOW THAT I SAW AS MUCH IN "HEARTLAND" BUT I FEEL LIKE I DEFINITELY SEE IN THIS IS THE RAGE.
THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER AT BEING IGNORED.
THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER AT BEING KIND OF MISREPRESENTED.
DO YOU FEEL THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?
>> I THINK IT'S TRUE, CERTAINLY.
I WOULD LIKE TO THINK AND HOPE THAT, BECAUSE FOR ME, THIS WOULD BE A MARK OF GOOD WRITING.
THERE'S A CONTROLLED FURY ABOUT IT, IF YOU WILL.
I ALREADY DID THE THINKING THROUGH AND PROCESSING OF WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE THAT I'M THEN CONVEYING WITH, AS YOU SAY, SORT OF THE RAGE, OR THE ANGER AND THE FIRE THAT THAT WAS -- THAT RELATES TO MY EARLY LIFE EXPERIENCES, AND TODAY, YOU KNOW, THE POVERTY AND DISADVANTAGES THAT MY LOVED ONES AND FAMILY FACE STILL.
I DO THINK THE BOOK IS STRUCTURED CHRONOLOGICALLY, FROM 2013 TO PRESENT, AND I THINK THAT IN THE EARLIER PIECES, THERE'S MORE OF THAT EMOTIONAL COMPONENT SPECIFICALLY.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WRITE ABOUT IS THE DIFFICULTY OF WRITING ABOUT THE SO-CALLED WHITE WORKING CLASS, AND JUST HOW HARD IT IS TO HAVE GOTTEN THESE PIECES PUBLISHED AND SEEN, YOU KNOW, AND OUT THERE.
AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- YOU SPECULATED ABOUT A LOT OF THE REASONS THAT MIGHT BE, BUT I DO WONDER WHETHER THE RISE OF DONALD TRUMP AS A NATIONAL FIGURE.
ARE MORE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN YOUR WORK BECAUSE OF IT, OR DOES IT CUT IN ANOTHER WAY, IN A WAY, KIND OF REINFORCING SOME OF THE THINGS THAT MAKE YOU CRAZY?
>> RIGHT, YEAH.
YEAH, I DO -- I THINK IT CUTS IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.
FOR SURE, CLASS, AND SPECIFICALLY THE WHITE WORKING CLASS, THE WHITE WORKING POOR, IS NOW, YOU KNOW, A KIND OF FIXTURE IN HEADLINES AS A CONCEPT, OR A DEMOGRAPHIC OR A TERM, AND IT IS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THAT POLITICAL MOVEMENT, AND THAT POLITICAL FIGURE HAS ARTFULLY AND SUCCESSFULLY LEVERAGED, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL TOOLS OF MANIPULATION, IN MY VIEW, TO, YOU KNOW, GARNER A SHIFT TO THE RIGHT AMONG THAT GROUP IN TERMS OF VOTING HABITS.
THERE IS, I BELIEVE, A DISCOURSE THAT DIVERTS ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE I'M REALLY MAD AT, WHICH IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE IMMENSE POWER.
PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT CALL THEM THE PUPPET MASTERS OF OUR POLITICAL MOMENT, YOU MIGHT CALL THEM MEDIOCRE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND LITTLE MORAL COMPASS.
WHETHER IT'S CORPORATIONS OR THE FACTIONS BEHIND DARK MONEY OR, YOU KNOW, I'M INTERESTED IN, YES, WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THAT VERY DANGEROUS POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT IS MAGA, AND HOW IT CAME TO BE AND WHY IT IS.
THE -- WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN TALKING ABOUT, WHERE MY ANGER IS UPWARD, TOWARD THE TOP.
THE VERY TOP.
THE TOP OF THE TOP.
AT A MOMENT OF HISTORIC WEALTH INEQUALITY, THAT HURTS EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE WHITE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, AND, OF COURSE -- THERE'S ANOTHER ISSUE, IS THAT THE WORKING CLASS, OF COURSE, IS ITSELF RACIALLY DIVERSE AND DIVERSE IN EVERY WAY.
SO, IT HAS BROUGHT THE TERM TO THE FORE IN WAYS THAT IT WAS MISSING FROM OUR DISCUSSION PREVIOUSLY, BUT IN WAYS THAT I BELIEVE ARE PROBLEMATIC AND MISLEADING.
>> I WAS STRUCK BY ONE OF THE ESSAYS, IT'S CALLED -- THAT YOU WROTE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," IT'S CALLED "LIBERAL BLIND SPOT S ARE HIDING THE TRUTH."
JUST READ A LITTLE BIT FROM THAT ESSAY, IF YOU WOULD.
>> SURE.
MOST STRUGGLING WHITES I KNOW LIVE LIVES OF QUIET DESPERATION, FEELING ANGRY AT THEIR WHITE BOSSES, NOT AT THEIR COWORKERS OR NEIGHBORS OF COLOR.
MY DAD'S BOSSES WERE PEOPLE HE LOATHED.
IT IS UNFAIR POWER THAT MY DAD DESPISES.
THE LAST RANT I HEARD HIM ON WAS NOT ABOUT RACE OR IMMIGRATION, BUT ABOUT THE RECENT ROYAL WEDDING -- THIS IS A PIECE FROM 2018 -- THE SPECTACLE OF WHICH MADE HIM SICK.
WHAT'S SO SPECIAL ABOUT THE ROYALS, HE TOLD ME OVER THE PHONE FROM A CHEAP MOTEL AFTER WORKING CONSTRUCTION HUNDREDS OF MILES FROM HOME?
BUT THEY'LL GET THE BEST HEALTH CARE, THE BEST EDUCATION, THE BEST FOOD.
MEANWHILE, I'M IN ARKANSAS, ALL I WANT IS SOME CHICKENS AND A GARDEN AND A PLACE TO GO FISHING ONCE IN AWHILE.
WHAT MY FATHER SEEKS IS NOT A RETURN TO TIMES THAT WERE WORSE FOR WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, BUT PROGRESS IN A SOCIETY IN WHICH EVERYONE CAN GET BY, INCLUDING HIS WHITE COLLEGE EDUCATED SON THAT GRADUATED INTO THE GREAT RECESSION AND FOR TEN YEARS SOLD HIS OWN PLASMA FOR GAS MONEY.
>> YEAH, AND YOU GO ON TO POINT JUST HOW -- I DON'T KNOW THE WORD TO USE, INTEGRATED, DIVERSE, YOUR DAD'S CIRCLE IS, I MEAN, HE WORKS WITH PEOPLE FROM ALL DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.
BUT HOW THEN DO YOU EXPLAIN, YOU KNOW, THE APPEAL OF SOMEBODY LIKE TRUMP?
I MEAN, SOMEBODY WHO IS RICH, SOMEBODY WHOSE DAD WAS RICH.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE APPEAL?
>> IT'S HARD TO DO IT.
BECAUSE AS THE PASSAGE BEARS WITNESS TO, MY FAMILY AND MY IMMEDIATE COMMUNITY, WE DON'T GET IT, EITHER.
THERE WAS AN IDEA 20 YEARS AGO, A BOOK CAME OUT CALLED "WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS," THAT HOT BUTTON CULTURAL OR SOCIAL ISSUES HAD BEEN LEVERAGED OR SEIZED BY THE FAR RIGHT, OR, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENTS, TO CONVINCE SOME PEOPLE TO QUOTE UNQUOTE VOTE AGAINST THEIR OWN BEST INTEREST IN ECONOMIC TERMS, AND THAT MIGHT BE ABORTION OR OTHER KIND OF CULTURAL AND SOCIAL TOPICS.
IT NEVER SAT WELL WITH ME, AND THE NOTION SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE ARE STUPID.
I KNOW THEY AIN'T STUPID.
I THINK IT'S MORE LIKE THIS, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PLACE AND A PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ON THE LOSING END IN A LOT OF WAYS, SIMULTANEOUS WITH, IN THE CASE OF WHITE VOTERS, RACIAL PRIVILEGE, I WOULD SAY THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, FOR A FEW DECADES, DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A GROUND GAME, IF YOU WILL, IN THOSE PLACES, AND THERE'S -- THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE RESULTS IN STRATEGIC USE OF RESOURCES,.
I'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED A DEMOCRAT KNOCKING ON MY DOOR DURING A CAMPAIGN SEASON, SO, THAT'S ONE.
AND THEN, AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT, LET'S SAY DURING MY '80s CHILDHOOD, THE REAGAN ERA, OR EVEN INTO THE '90s, DURING MY ADOLESCENCE, I'M HEARING ON RADIO STATIONS ON THOSE LONG RIDES DOWN COUNTRY HIGHWAYS, RUSH LIMBAUGH OR CONSERVATIVE TALK RADIO, THEN FOLLOWING FROM THAT WAS FOX NEWS AND NOW, OF COURSE, OUR SOCIAL MEDIA ERA, THERE ARE MESSAGES THAT HAVE COOPTED THE TERMS AND THE SYMBOLS OF THAT PLACE TO SOMEHOW SUGGEST THAT A RURAL IDENTITY MEANS THESE PARTICULAR POLITICAL IDEAS OR THAT THOSE THINGS ARE SYNONYMOUS.
THAT WAS -- THAT'S INTENTIONAL.
IT'S BEEN SUCCESSFUL.
IF NOBODY'S LOOKING AT YOU, IT FEELS LIKE ABOUT INVALIDATION.
IT FEELS LIKE YOU'RE UNSEEN.
IT FEELS LIKE MAYBE YOU'RE GROWING THE FEED OR EXTRACTING THE RESOURCES THAT ARE FUELING OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES WHO ARE LOOKING DOWN ON YOU WHILE YOU'RE DOING THAT WORK, AND NOBODY'S TALKING TO YOU.
AND IF SOMEBODY SHOWS UP AND TALKS TO YOU AND LOOKS RIGHT AT YOU, EVEN IF IT'S A BUNCH OF LIES AND JUST -- TO MY MIND, A HORRIFYING MESSAGE, WELL, WE ARE -- POLITICS IS AN EMOTIONAL BUSINESS, IT'S -- IT'S NOT NECESSARILY SO RATIONAL, AS IT IS FELT.
AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE ACROSS PARTY LINES IN A LOT OF WAYS.
>> IS ANYTHING GETTING BETTER WHEN IT COMES TO THE THINGS THAT HAVE MADE YOU CRAZY ALL THESE YEARS?
>> I THINK SO.
I REALLY THINK THAT EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, -- I JUST GOT DONE TELLING YOU ALL THE WAYS I THINK WE DON'T TALK ABOUT CLASS NECESSARILY PRODUCTIVELY, AT LEAST WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, KIND OF, ISH.
AND I WOULD SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- THAT'S AN IMPROVEMENT, OVER THE BIG VOID THAT I SENSED AS THAT FIRST GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT IN 1998 GOING, LIKE, I DON'T -- I DON'T EVEN HAVE A WORD FOR WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, BUT THERE'S SOMETHING.
SO, I BELIEVE WE HAVE BEGUN THAT CONVERSATION, AND WE'RE NEW AT IT, WE'RE -- WE'RE EARLY.
WE NEED -- WE NEED JUST A DIVERSE SPATE OF PEOPLE AND EXPERIENCES AND PROFESSIONS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT, TO IMPROVE THE LANGUAGE.
BUT YEAH, I THINK -- I THINK WE'RE -- WE'VE BEGUN THE JOURNEY, AND THAT IS HEARTENING TO ME.
>> YOU CERTAINLY HAVE DONE YOUR PART, WITH YOUR -- WITH YOUR WORK.
SOME PEOPLE MIGHT ARGUE, SO HAS J.D.
VANCE.
HE CAME TO FAME BECAUSE OF HIS OWN MEMOIR, "HILLBILLY ELEGY," WHICH WAS MADE INTO A MOVIE, AND NOW HE'S, YOU KNOW, BECOME, YOU KNOW, AN IMPORTANT PUBLIC FIGURE.
CANDIDATE FOR THE VICE PRESIDENCY.
IF HE WINS THAT JOB OR NOT, HE'S IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE, RIGHT?
I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT YOU MAKE OF HIM.
>> RIGHT.
WHEN YOU ASKED ABOUT -- IF THE TRUMP ERA, IF YOU WILL, HAD SORT OF BEEN A BOONE FOR ME PROFESSIONALLY, ARE PEOPLE MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY SORT OF THING, ACTUALLY, I TURNED DOWN A LOT OF INVITATIONS, RIGHT AROUND THAT MOMENT THAT THAT BOOK HAD COME OUT, TO BE A SORT OF TRUMP WHISPERER, IF YOU WILL, BECAUSE JUST -- IT WASN'T -- IT WASN'T MY MESSAGE, IT WASN'T RIGHT TO ME, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN IT MYSELF.
AND SO, I DO THINK PRETTY CLEARLY I'VE FOUND A GROOVE IN THAT SENSE AND THEN WROTE IT INTO POLITICS WITH A CAPITAL P AS HIS OWN PROFESSIONAL SHIFT.
THAT BOOK ALWAYS HAD A LOT OF RED FLAGS IN IT FOR ME.
>> BECAUSE WHY?
>> YEAH, SO, I DON'T BEGRUDGE -- EVEN IF I DON'T AGREE WITH POLITICS, HE'S TELLING HIS STORY ABOUT WHERE HE CAME FROM, AND I WAS, LIKE, CHEERING FOR ANYBODY, THEY BEAT THE OLDS TO HAVE THEIR STORY TOLD.
THAT SAID, IT DID STRIKE ME AS KIND OF A CONSERVATIVE -- PARTICULARLY TOWARD THE END OF THE BOOK.
WHAT FELT TO ME LIKE A LOT OF FINGER WAGGING AT THE VERY PLACE THAT HE COMES FROM, AND THE PEOPLE THAT HE COMES FROM, PINNING THEIR, YOU KNOW, POOR OUTCOMES OR NEGATIVE LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES ON THEIR OWN DECISIONS, WITH SOME SORT OF MORAL FRAMEWORK RELATING TO CHARACTER.
AS SOMEONE WHO -- I'VE NEVER -- I'VE ALWAYS REJECTED THE NARRATIVE ABOUT GETTING OUT, SO TO SPEAK.
YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE TO, IN MY CAREER, BUT I LIVE IN RURAL KANSAS TODAY, AND I WENT BACK WITH AN INTENTION TO WRITE ABOUT AND DOCUMENT THAT SPACE AND EXPERIENCE, NOT IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR, AND IT SEEMED TO ME LIKE HE WAS WRITING A STORY ABOUT THE PAIN, AND THAT'S REAL, ABOUT WHERE HE CAME FROM, BUT ALSO WITH -- A VERY SPECIFIC FRAMEWORK ABOUT -- YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE, KIND OF FELT LIKE WHAT WAS AN UNDERCURRENT, OR AN UNDERPINNING, AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S FAIR OR NOT, BUT IT'S HOW IT STRUCK ME.
AND THAT DOES KIND OF CORRELATE MORE WITH THE CONSERVATIVE POLITICS, IN MY VIEW, SO, I -- I'M NOT ALL THAT -- I'M NOT ALL THAT SURPRISED THAT HE WENT INTO -- THAT HE SOUGHT ELECTED OFFICE AND THAT HE'S NOW, YOU KNOW, KIND OF AN XEM PARTICULAR OF THAT KIND OF CONSERVATIVE -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY APPROPRIATION OF, BUT CLAIMING OF CERTAIN SYMBOLS AS THOUGH COUNTRY OR BLUE JEANS OR COWBOY BOOTS MEANS A CERTAIN SET OF BELIEFS.
I -- I KNOW FIRST-HAND THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE, EVEN ON MY OWN DIRT ROAD.
>> WELL, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, WHO -- WHO ARE YOU -- WHO ARE YOU HOPING WILL FIND YOUR BOOK?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS LOVELY, IF SOMEONE SAYS -- AND YOU MIGHT APPRECIATE THIS, AS A PROFESSIONAL COMMUNICATOR, IF SOMEONE SAYS, I READ THIS, AND NOW MY EYES ARE OPEN TO THIS THING THAT I DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE.
BOY DOES THAT MAKE MY HEART SING.
BUT THE THING THAT REALLY IS JUST THE MOST MOVING AND GRATIFYING FOR ME IS IF IT'S SOMEONE FOR WHOM IT -- IT'S NOT THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THIS THING, NOW THEY KNOW, IT'S THAT THEY ALWAYS KNEW THIS THING, AND NOBODY SAID IT FOR THEM, AND NOW THEY FEEL SEEN IN SOME WAY, FOR HAVING READ IT.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S KIND OF AN OLD WRITING ADAGE, WRITE THE THING YOU WISH EXISTED, OR YOU WOULD LIKE TO READ YOURSELF, AND "HEARTLAND" AND THEN THIS COLLECTION, THESE ARE MESSAGES AND IDEAS THAT I DIDN'T ACCESS, WEREN'T AVAILABLE TO ME AS A KID, IN A STRUGGLING RURAL SPACE, AND SO, IF NOW SOMEONE IN THAT SPACE FEELS SEEN, THAT WOULD BE MY -- MY GREATEST -- MY GREATEST HOPE.
>> SARAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANKS, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
>>> AND FINALLY, REMEMBERING A MUSIC LEGEND.
KRIS KRISTOFFERSON DIED ON SATURDAY, AGED 88.
FROM THE U.S. ARMY TO OXFORD UNIVERSITY, HE HAD AN INCREDIBLE CAREER ON THE BIG SCREEN AND IN MUSIC, INCLUDING RELEASING THE BALLAD "HELP ME MAKE IT THROUGH THE NIGHT," WHICH WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH NOW.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.
♪♪♪ ♪ ALL I'M TAKING IS YOUR TIME ♪ ♪ HELP ME MAKE IT THROUGH THE NIGHT ♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
♪♪♪