October 1, 2024

AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

SERIOUS ESCALATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IRAN RETALIATES BY FIRING MISSILES AT ISRAEL ON THE SAME DAY THAT ISRAELI TROOPS AND TANKS GOING INTO LEBANON.

THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER JOINS US.

>>> THEN -- >> THIS WAS A WOMAN WHO NOT ONLY KNEW SHE HAD EARNED HER PLACE AT THE TABLE BUT CAUSE DETERMINED TO SIT AT THE HEAD OF IT.

>> IN LEE, SUPERSTAR ACTRESS KATE WINSLET PORTRAYED THE MOSTLY OVERLOOKED WAR PHOTOGRAPHER LEE MILLER.

>> ALSO, IF WHITE CHRISTIANS WANT TO SURVIVE, IF TRUMPISM WANTS TO SURVIVE, THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY NEED LATINAS AND THEY'RE DOING IT.

>> THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT.

WE SPEAK WITH JOURNALIST PAOLO RAMOS ABOUT HER NEW BOOK, THE DEFECTORS.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DOZENS OF EXPLOSIONS SOUNDED TONIGHT ACROSS ISRAEL AS IRAN TARGETED THE COUNTRY WITH A MISSILE ATTACK.

IN A STATEMENT, IRAN'S REVOLUTIONARY GUARD SAID IT DID TARGET ISRAEL YESTERDAY WITH THE RESPONSE TO THE KILLING OF THE ASSASSINATION OF THE LEADER OF HAMAS IN TEHRAN THIS SUMMER AND ALSO IRG OFFICIALS IN BEIRUT AND IN IRAN.

A U.S. DEFENSE OFFICIAL SAYS THEIR FORCES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, QUOTE, ARE CURRENTLY DEFENDING AGAINST IRANIAN LAUNCHED MISSILES TARGETING ISRAEL AND WE'LL HAVE MUCH MORE ON THIS NEWS IN TOMORROW'S SHOW.

BUT IRAN'S ATTACK CAME ON THE VERY SAME DAY THAT ISRAEL LAUNCHED A GROUND OFFENSIVE INTO LEBANON ESCALATING ATTACKS THERE HAVE ALREADY KILLED MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE AND DISPLACED MORE THAN A MILLION LEBANESE IN THE PAST FEW DAYS ALONE.

JUST BEFORE IRAN FIRED ON ISRAEL, I SPOKE WITH LEBANON'S FOREIGN MINISTER WHO IS IN WASHINGTON TO MEET WITH AMERICAN OFFICIALS, AND HE JOINED US FOR HIS FIRST INTERVIEW SINCE THE LATEST ESCALATIONS.

FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> THINGS HAVE REACHED A MAJOR CRISIS IN YOUR COUNTRY SINCE WE LAST SPOKE.

AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW THAT SEVERAL OF THE ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AGREE WITH ISRAEL'S, YOU KNOW, GROUND INCURSION INTO YOUR COUNTRY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, AS YOU'RE IN WASHINGTON TRYING TO GET SUPPORT FOR A CEASE-FIRE?

>> WELL, THEY ALSO AGREED ON THE, YOU KNOW, THE BIDEN/MACRON STATEMENT THAT CALLS FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

AND THAT CALLS ALSO THE IMPLEMENTATION OF 21-DAY CEASE-FIRE AND HE WOULD GO TO LEBANON AND NEGOTIATE A CEASE-FIRE.

OKAY.

AND THEY TOLD US THAT MR. NETANYAHU AGREED ON THIS.

AND SO WE ALSO GOT THE AGREEMENT OF HEZBOLLAH ON THAT.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED SINCE THEN.

THAT WAS THE DAY WE SAW YOU IN NEW YORK.

>> I KNOW, AND YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT GOING INTO THE SECURITY COUNCIL FOR THE CEASE-FIRE, AND BARELY 24 HOURS LATER, THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH WAS ASSASSINATED.

ARE YOU SAYING HE HAD AGREED TO A CEASE-FIRE MOMENTS BEFORE HE WAS ASSASSINATED?

>> HE AGREED, YES.

YES.

WE AGREED COMPLETELY.

LEBANON AGREED TO A CEASE-FIRE.

CONSULTING WITH HEZBOLLAH, THE SPEAKER, HE CONSULTED WITH HEZBOLLAH, AND WE INFORMED THE AMERICANS AND THE FRENCH THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED.

AND THEY TOLD US THAT MR. NETANYAHU ALSO AGREED ON THE STATEMENT THAT WAS ISSUED BY BOTH PRESIDENTS.

>> OKAY, AS YOU KNOW, MR. NETANYAHU WAS ALSO IN NEW YORK AT THE TIME, AND HE ACTUALLY SAID PUBLICLY THE IDF MUST FIGHT ON.

AND THEN HE ORDERED THE ASSASSINATION AND THE TARGETING OF THAT HEADQUARTERS, WHICH KILLED -- WHICH KILLED NESRAHALA.

GIVEN ALL OF THAT, I MEAN, WHO DO YOU HAVE ANY FAITH IN, IF THE STRONGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, THE UNITED STATES, SEEMS TO HAVE NO OR VERY LITTLE INFLUENCE AFTER PUBLICLY SAYING THAT THERE WOULD BE A CEASE-FIRE?

>> I DON'T THINK WE HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE.

WE NEED THE UNITED STATES' HELP.

WHETHER WE GET IT OR NOT, WE'RE NOT SURE YET.

BUT THE UNITED STATES IS VERY IMPORTANT, VITAL FOR THE CEASE-FIRE.

IF IT HAS TO HAPPEN, THE UNITED STATES IS ALWAYS IMPORTANT IN THIS REGARD.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE, THEN, OF THE UNITED STATES' LATEST WARNINGS TO THE REGION AND NOW PUBLICLY THAT THEY HAVE INTELLIGENCE THAT IRAN IS PREPARING AN IMMINENT BALLISTIC MISSILE ATTACK ON ISRAEL?

WHAT WILL THAT DO FOR THE SITUATION?

>> WELL, WE ALWAYS WARNED AGAINST A REGIONAL WAR.

THAT WILL DRAW THE UNITED STATES INTO IT.

AND WE THOUGHT THAT WHAT ISRAEL DID WOULD PRODUCE THAT.

UNTIL NOW, NOTHING HAD HAPPENED.

BUT THE ISSUE IS THAT THAT'S WHAT I HEAR, WE DIDN'T HEAR DIRECTLY FROM THE IRANIANS BUT THAT'S WHAT WE HEAR FROM THE NEWS TODAY, WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT IRAN BALLISTIC MISSILES FIRED TO ISRAEL OR TO BE FIRED.

>> SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, BECAUSE OTHERS HAVE SAID THIS.

I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU AGREE, THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS SUCCEEDED IN CREATING THE KIND OF DYNAMIC THAT HE WANTS ON THE GROUND AND IN THE AIR.

AND COULD POSSIBLY SUCCEED IN GETTING THE UNITED STATES TO HELP ISRAEL STRIKE IRAN.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT IF IRAN STRIKES ISRAEL?

>> WELL, HE SUCCEEDED DEFINITELY.

HE CAME THE NEXT DAY AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE AMERICANS AND THE FRENCH ON THE CEASE-FIRE.

HE CAME THE NEXT DAY, AND HIS MINISTERS WERE SAYING, NO, WE DON'T AGREE, BUT HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING.

AND WHEN HE CAME AFTER HE SPOKE AT THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HE GAVE AN ORDER TO HIT HEZBOLLAH IN SOUTHERN BEIRUT.

I'M AFRAID THAT THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO HELP ISRAEL.

THEY HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES.

AND GOD KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

REALLY, CHRISTIANE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE AFRAID OF.

AND WE DON'T LIKE -- WE, AS YOU KNOW US, PEACE-LOVING PEOPLE.

I MEAN, WE TRIED A LONG TIME AGO, BUT WE DIDN'T SUCCEED AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO TRY TO AVOID THE WAR AND HAVE A CEASE-FIRE AT LEAST ON OUR BORDERS.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY, YOU'RE A SOVEREIGN NATION, BUT YOU HAVE A SEPARATE MILITIA CALLED HEZBOLLAH.

A SEPARATE ARMY THAT HAS BEEN CONTROLLING A LOT OF THE MILITARY ACTIVITIES ALSO IN PARLIAMENT FOR DECADES.

IS THIS A MOMENT WHERE ISRAEL -- SORRY, IS THIS A MOMENT WHERE LEBANON COULD RECLAIM ITS SOVEREIGNTY IF HEZBOLLAH IS ON THE BACK FOOT NOW?

CAN YOUR ARMY FILL A VACUUM?

IS THERE A VACUUM?

>> LOOK, THERE WOULD BE A VACUUM.

THE GOVERNMENT PROMISED THAT ANY TIME THERE IS WITHDRAWAL, A CEASE-FIRE, WE SEND THE ARMY SOUTH TO ASSERT THEIR PRESENCE THERE.

AND WE WILL DO THAT.

WE ARE READY TO DO IT ANY TIME THERE IS A CEASE-FIRE.

BUT WITHOUT CEASE-FIRE, WE DON'T WANT TO EXPOSE OUR ARMY, OUR ARMED FORCES TO ANY KIND OF WAR BECAUSE WE HAVE A LIMITED POWER.

AND WE DON'T WANT TO EXPOSE THEM TO ANY KIND OF WAR.

>> AND THE QUESTION ABOUT THE POWER OF THE LEBANESE ARMY, YOU MAY HAVE READ, YOUR PEOPLE MAY HAVE SHOWED YOU ARTICLES IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," COMMENTARY ON CNN BY OUR CORRESPONDENT THERE, THAT IN THIS WHOLE CRISIS, THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT APPEARS NOT TO BE ANYWHERE TO BE SEEN.

SOMEBODY ASKED WHY THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T DOING MORE, AND THIS VOLUNTEER SAID THERE'S NO GOVERNMENT TO BEGIN WITH.

THE GOVERNMENT WILL ONLY WAKE UP WAY AFTER THIS WAR HAS ENDED.

TELL ME WHAT YOU SAY TO THAT.

>> WELL, THIS IS -- THIS IS A STATEMENT PEOPLE WHEN THEY CAN'T GET AN ANSWER SOMETIMES, THEY SAY.

BUT LET ME TELL YOU, WE HAVE OVER A MILLION DISPLACED LEBANESE AND SYRIANS AS WELL.

AND MORE THAN 100, 250,000, THEY WENT TO SYRIA, WHICH EVERYBODY IN THE WESTERN WORLD WILL SAY SYRIA IS NOT SAFE FOR LEBANESE OR FOR SYRIANS.

YOU'LL SEE NOW THE LEBANESE AND SYRIANS GOING BACK TO SYRIA.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS ON OUR HANDS AS A GOVERNMENT.

YES, WE HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES.

THE PRIME MINISTER SAID IT MANY TIMES, THAT THE DECISION OF WAR WAS NOT OURS TO MAKE.

WE SHOULD TAKE A DECISION, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY CARDS IN THE SOUTH.

AND IF THERE IS HEZBOLLAH IN THE SOUTH, A RESISTANCE MOVEMENT, IT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE -- WE HAVE OCCUPATION.

IF ISRAEL HAS ACCEPTED TO REALLY FINISH AND PREVENT 1701, PROBABLY HEZBOLLAH WOULD NOT BE AS STRONG AND AS PRESENT IN THE SOUTH AS IT HAS BEEN UNTIL RECENTLY.

>> JUST TO BE CLEAR, 1701 IS THE U.N.

RESOLUTION THAT ENDED THE 2006 WAR, CALLED FOR A BUFFER ZONE, CALLED FOR ALL SIDES TO PULL BACK.

BUT HERE'S MY QUESTION.

AS YOU KNOW, HEZBOLLAH STARTED FIRING IN ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 8th, AFTER OCTOBER 7th IN SUPPORT OF HAMAS.

IT WAS UNPROVOKED IN TERMS OF THEY FIRED THE FIRST VOLLEY.

AND THE QUESTION IS, ISRAEL WAITED A YEAR BEFORE TAKING THIS ACTION INTO ITS OWN HANDS BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE STOPPED HEZBOLLAH.

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT POSITION BY ISRAEL, THAT IT HAD TO DO SOMETHING?

>> WELL, I DON'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE, I MEAN, IT WAS A LIMITED ONE.

IT WAS LIKE TWO, THREE KILOMETERS BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

IT WAS NOT A BIG WAR.

IT WAS NOT A GOVERNMENT DECISION, ANYWAY.

BUT IT WAS A LIMITED WAR THAT THEY UNDERTOOK.

THE ESCALATION WAS ALWAYS COMING FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE.

AND NOW, IT'S A BIG ESCALATION.

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO BE ENDING.

AS YOU KNOW, YOU'RE TALKING TO ME.

I'M IN WASHINGTON.

SO I PRAY THAT SOME KIND OF PEACE WOULD COME, AND I'M WORKING ON IT, AND I'M INSTRUCTED BY MY GOVERNMENT TO WORK ON PEACE.

THAT'S WHY I'M STAYING OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

YOU'RE STAYING OUT OF THE COUNTRY, I HEAR, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T RISK GOING THERE AND GETTING STUCK IF THE WAR COMES TO THE BEIRUT AND CLOSES DOWN THE AIRPORT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN.

FIRST AND FOREMOE, YOU KNOW THAT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN DISPLACED FROM NORTHERN ISRAEL.

FOR ISRAEL, IT'S NOT JUST A LIMITED THING.

IT'S A BIGGER THING.

BUT THE QUESTION I WANT TO ASK YOU IS, YOU HAVE JUST SAID LIMITED WAR.

ISRAEL NOW SAYS ITS INCURSION INTO YOUR COUNTRY IS A LIMITED OFFENSIVE.

DO YOU -- IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL IT?

HOW DO YOU TERM WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING RIGHT NOW?

>> LOOK, WHEN ISRAEL INVADES LEBANON, WHETHER IT IS LIMITED OR NOT LIMITED, IT IS AGAINST -- IT IS A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY, A UNITED NATIONS COUNTRY, AS ISRAEL IS, AND THEREFORE, WE SHOULD RESPECT EACH OTHER.

HEZBOLLAH DID NOT GO INTO ISRAEL, YES, THEY FIRED.

I'M NOT SAYING THEY STARTED THE WAR ON OCTOBER 8th, AND THEY FIRED.

THEY WERE FIRING.

AND THE ISRAELIS FIRED BACK.

NOW THERE'S AN INCURSION, AND THIS IS SOMETHING DANGEROUS.

AND I HOPE THAT THEY WILL NOT DO IT SO FAR WE HAVE BEEN THREATENED TO DO IT.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THEY SHOULD RESPECT THE INTERNATIONAL LAW, WHICH IS THEY ARE NOT.

NOR ANY KIND OF LAWS THAT THE UNITED NATIONS PUT AFTER WORLD WAR II.

>> ONE OTHER QUESTION TO YOU.

WHAT IS THE STATE DO YOU ASSESS OF HEZBOLLAH NOW?

YOU KNOW, SO MUCH OF ITS TOP LEADERSHIP, NOT JUST NESRAHALA HAS BEEN WIPED OUT.

SO MUCH OF ITS COMMUNICATION STRATEGY WITH THE PAGERS AND THE WALKIE-TALKIES AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS.

WHAT IS THE STATE OF THAT MILITARY FORCE RIGHT NOW?

AND ITS POLITICIANS?

>> WELL, I'M GOING TO BE ANALYZING RATHER THAN TELLING YOU BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT, BUT ANY KIND OF RESISTANCE MOVEMENT, THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, LEADERS ONE THROUGH THREE AND MORE THAN THAT.

SO IF ONE DIES BECAUSE THEY EXPECT THEMSELVES TO BE KILLED OR IN THE WAR.

SO NOW, THEY WERE SAYING THEY HAVE 100,000 TROOPS OR RESISTANCE PERSONS.

NOW, IF THEY HAVE 50 AND 10,000 DIE, THEY STILL HAVE 40,000.

THERE'S STILL A LARGE NUMBER.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED REALLY A CEASE-FIRE AND THEN TO CONTROL THE ISSUE AND STOP THE FIGHTING, STOP THE KILLING.

YOU KNOW, 1 MILLION DISPLACED LEBANESE, IT'S A LOT.

THEY ARE SLEEPING IN THE STREETS.

THEY ARE SLEEPING -- THEY ARE TAKING INTO, YOU KNOW, HOUSES, EMPTY HOUSES, EMPTY HOTELS, OCCUPYING THEM.

IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION WE HAVE.

WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME HUMANITARIAN HELP ALSO THAT DID NOT COME YET IN SUFFICIENT QUANTITIES TO LEBANON.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW, TO ONE OF THE GREAT WORLD WAR II PHOTOGRAPHERS WHOSE REAL STORY REMAINS LARGELY UNFOLD.

LEE MILLER COURAGEOUSLY CAPTURED THE HORRORS OF WORLD WAR II ON HER CAMERA, DEFINING THAT WAR, DESPITE MAJOR PUSHBACK SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN.

WELL, NOW, SHE'S THE ONE CAUGHT IN THE LENS, AS THE AWARD-WINNING ACTRESS KATE WINSLET PLAYS HER IN THE NEW FILM "LEE."

>> I'M HEADING TO THE FRONT.

>> THAT'S NOT WHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY.

>> READY TO GO?

>> AND I RECENTLY MET UP WITH KATE WINSLET IN NEW YORK TO TALK ABOUT IT.

KATE WINSLET, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT IS WONDERFUL FOR ME, ANYWAY, AND FOR THE GENERAL AUDIENCE I'M SURE, TO SEE YOU PLAYING ONE OF THE MOST ELUST RHEEs WAR CORRESPONDENTS OF THE 20th CENTURY.

WHAT MADE YOU CHOOSE THIS CHARACTER WHO REALLY WASN'T WELL KNOWN FOR WHAT SHE WAS BEST AT?

>> I THINK IT'S PROBABLY EXACTLY AS YOU SAY.

SHE WASN'T WELL KNOWN.

AND SHE WASN'T REVERED, I FELT, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

I KNEW WHO LEE MILLER WAS, AND I WAS AWARE OF HER WORK AS A PHOTOGRAPHER.

AND I KNEW WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE.

BUT I FOUND THAT AS I STARTED TO REALLY DIG IN TO THE REST OF HER LIFE, THE SORT OF HEADLINE DESCRIPTION OF HER WAS FORMER MUSE, ACTUALLY NOT EVEN THE, A FORMER MUSE AND EX-LOVER OF MANRAY, EX-COVERGIRL, EX-VOGUE MODEL.

THESE KIND OF REDUCTIVE THINGS THAT REDUCED HER IN A WAY.

REDUCED HER POWER, INFANTILIZED HER, STIRK HER IN A MOMENT IN HISTORY THAT SHE COULDN'T WAIT TO GET AWAY FROM.

>> MANRAY, FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, THE GREAT SURREALIST ARTIST OF THE 20th CENTURY.

IT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER SHE DIED THAT HER SON FOUND BOXES OF HER DIARIES AND PHOTOS HIDDEN AWAY IN THE ATTIC.

ALMOST LIKE SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TELL, DIDN'T WANT TO LET ON.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS?

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS A CASE OF WANT.

I THINK IT WAS A CASE OF COULDN'T.

I THINK IT WAS A CASE OF SO MANY PEOPLE HAD TERRIBLE DEBILITATING PTSD AFTER WORLD WAR II.

AND LEE WAS NO EXCEPTION TO THAT.

IN FACT, QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

IT RETRIGGERED IN HER THE TRAUMA OF SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO HER AS A CHILD.

AND I THINK THE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE TO SUCH EXTREME HORROR AS THEY WITNESSED DURING THE WAR, IT CRACKED HER OPEN, AND I THINK REVEALED OLD WOUNDS THAT SHE SIMPLY HAD TO DO HER VERY BEST TO CLOSE.

AND PART OF THAT WAS QUITE LITERALLY CLOSING HER PHOTOGRAPHS AND PRINTS INTO BOXES, SHUTTING THEM AWAY, PUTTING THEM IN THE ATTIC, AND NEVER SPEAKING OF IT.

AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT ANTHONY PENROSE HAD NO IDEA WHAT HIS MOTHER HAD DONE DURING WORLD WAR II UNTIL AFTER HER DEATH IN 1977.

AND HE FOUND THOSE BOXES.

>> AND HE DID WRITE THE BOOK ON WHICH THIS FILM IS BASED.

>> YEAH.

>> WHICH IS PRETTY GREAT TRIBUTE FROM A SON WHO HAD A DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS MOTHER.

>> YEAH, SO LEE, BECAUSE OF HER TRAUMA, AND BECAUSE SHE GOT PREGNANT WITH HIM UNEXPECTEDLY JUST AFTER THE WAR, SHE FOUND IT EXTREMELY HARD TO BE A MOTHER.

SHE HAD A DANGEROUS RELATIONSHIP WITH ALCOHOL, AND HE HAS TALKED ABOUT HOW FRACTURED THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS, EVEN DESCRIBING IT AS CAUSTIC AT TIMES.

I RECENTLY HEARD HIM SAY THAT UNTIL HE OPENED THOSE BOXES AND STARTED TO READ HER ARTICLES ABOUT THE SEIZURE OF SAN MARLO AND LOOK AT THOSE IMAGES HE SAID I JUST THOUGHT SHE HAD BEEN THIS USELESS OLD DRUNK, AND HERE SHE WAS REVEALED TO ME AS BEING SO MUCH MORE THAN I EVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED OR EVER COULD HAVE HOPED.

AND IT'S BEEN A PHENOMENAL JOURNEY FOR HIM, PIECING TOGETHER WHO SHE TRULY WAS, BUT COMING TO UNDERSTAND WHY SHE HAD BEEN THE WAY SHE HAD BEEN TO HIM AS A MOTHER.

>> IT'S REALLY AMAZING THAT WE HAVE BROUGHT THIS UP SO EARLY BECAUSE IT GOES RIGHT TO THE HEART OF WHAT IT IS TO BE A WOMAN AND A WOMAN AT WORK, AND A WOMAN WHO DOES DANGEROUS THINGS.

THIS SORT OF STARTED AT THE BEGINNING BEFORE THE VERY FAMOUS PICTURE OF HER IN HITLER'S BATHTUB.

SHE WANTED TO GO COVER THE BRITISH WAR EFFORT.

SHE WASN'T ALLOWED, RIGHT?

>> YES, SHE WAS INITIALLY, AFTER SHE HAD DECIDED THAT BEING A WAR CORRESPONDENT FOR BRITISH VOGUE IN ORDER TO CONVEY INFORMATION TO THE FEMALE READERS OF BRITISH VOGUE, SHE INVENTED THAT JOB.

AND INITIALLY, SHE WAS, YEAH, SHE WAS GIVEN THE TASK OF GOING AND PHOTOGRAPHING, AS YOU SAY, THE WOMEN, THE PILOTS FERRYING BOMBERS BETWEEN BASES AND THE WOMEN'S QUARTERS, ET CETERA, BUT SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY DETERMINED TO GO TO THE FRONT LINE.

AND WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED, THEY WERE NOT.

LEE WAS ONE OF APPROXIMATELY FOUR OR FIVE U.S.

CORRESPONDENTS WHO DID EARN THEIR ACCREDITATION TO GO, BUT EVEN THAT FIGHT AND EVEN WHEN SHE GOT THERE, AS WE SEE IN THE FILM, SHE'S TOLD NO WOMEN IN THE PRESS BRIEFING.

I MEAN, THE UTTER OUTRAGE.

AND WHAT I LOVED AND STILL LOVE AND WILL FOREVER LOVE ABOUT LEE IS THAT SHE LED HER LIFE WITH INTENTION AND GRACE, INTEGRITY AND RESILIENCE, FEMININITY, AND SHE NOT ONLY KNEW SHE HAD EARNED HER PLACE AT THE TABLE BUT WAS DETERMINED TO SIT AT THE HEAD OF IT.

AND THAT FOR ME IN TERMS OF A GLOBAL MESSAGE ABOUT FEMALE LEADERSHIP IS PHENOMENAL AND IMPORTANT.

>> AND THEN, SHE SOMEHOW BECAME THE FIRST PERSON TO BREAK THE NEWS OF SOME OF THESE CONCENTRATION CAMPS, NOTABLY DACHAU.

HOW DID SHE EVEN GET THERE?

>> LEE WAS PHENOMENALLY GOOD AT USING HER CHARMS.

SHE REALLY WAS.

AND SHE LENT INTO THE FACT SHE WAS A WOMAN AND COULD BUDDY UP WITH THE GUYS EASILY.

SHE WOULD CHITCHAT WITH THE GIs AND FIND INFORMATION ON THE INSIDE AND JUST FOLLOW HER NOSE.

AND THE MORE AND MORE THEY WERE HEARING ABOUT PEOPLE GOING MISSING, AND THE MORE THAT THEY BECAME AWARE THAT NO ONE KNEW WHERE THEY HAD GONE TO OR HAD BEEN TAKEN, THE HUNGRIER IT MADE LEE TO UNEARTH THIS MYSTERY, THIS ATROCITY, THIS LIE.

AND TO REVEAL IT TO THE WORLD.

SHE KEPT HEARING RUMORS OF SOMETHING HAPPENING DOWN SOUTH.

AND SHE WRITES ABOUT THAT.

AND WE INCLUDE WORDS TO THAT EFFECT IN OUR FILM.

AND SHE AND DAVIE SHERMAN WERE ALWAYS THE FIRST IN THE DOOR AT ANY SCOOP.

AND THEY ARRIVED AT DACHAU NOT KNOWING REALLY ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE ABOUT TO SEE.

BUT KNOWING THAT THAT'S WHERE ALL THE MILLIONS OF MISSING HAD ALLEGEDLY BEEN TAKEN, ONE OF MANY PLACES, MANY MANY PLACES ACROSS EUROPE AS OF COURSE WE NOW KNOW.

SO MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAD BEEN TAKEN TO.

WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO THEM, OF COURSE, THEY WERE ONLY ABOUT TO DISCOVER.

>> THROUGH HER PICTURES.

>> THROUGH HER PICTURES.

>> AT ONE POINT, THE MOST FAMOUS PICTURE THAT BASICALLY THE WORLD KNOWS ABOUT LEE MILLER IS FRANKLY HER IN HITLER'S BATHTUB AND IT'S BEEN VERY MISREPRESENTED OVER THE YEARS.

AS SOME KIND OF DILETTANTE ACTION, SOME KIND OF WAR TROPHY.

AND THE CLIP THAT WE'RE GOING TO PLAY SHOWS DAVIE SHERMAN, THE COLLEAGUE, SETTING UP THE SHOT OF YOU AS LEE MILLER IN THE BATHTUB.

>> DAVIE.

>> WHAT?

>> QUICK, I NEED YOU.

>> FOR WHAT?

>> WAS IT GOOD?

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> HERE.

>> YEAH.

>> READY?

>> FOR HISTORY'S SAKE, TELL US WHY SHE TOOK THAT BATH?

IT WASN'T JUST A WAR TROPHY, AND HITLER WAS COMMITTING SUICIDE OR HAD JUST COMMITTED SUICIDE IN HIS BUNKER AT THAT TIME.

>> YES, SO THE EVENTS OF THAT DAY ARE QUITE EXTRAORDINARY.

LEE AND DAVIE SHERMAN HAD BEEN IN DACHAU THAT MORNING.

SHE AGAIN FOLLOWING HER NOSE, HAD BEEN AWARE OF HITLER'S MUNICH ADDRESS FOR SOME YEARS, A LITTLE LIKE NUMBER 10 DOWNING STREET, PEOPLE KNOW WHERE IT IS.

SHE WAS DETERMINED TO MAKE HER WAY THERE.

THEY BRIBED THEIR WAY IN.

ANTHONY PENROSE BELIEVES SHE WOULD HAVE GIVEN THEM HALF A BOTTLE OF BRANDY OR A CARTON OF CIGARETTES AND GOTTEN IN THE DOOR.

AND IT'S TRUE THERE WAS AN ENTIRE REGIMEN IN THERE HAVING A PARTY.

LEE AND DAVIE HAD NOT WASHED OR CHANGED THEIR CLOTHES FOR SIX WEEKS, AND THEY CERTAINLY HADN'T TOUCHED HOT WATER.

AND THAT'S A FACT, A HISTORICAL FACT.

SO IT JUST DOESN'T SURPRISE ME THAT LEE WOULD THINK, WELL, THERE'S NO ONE HERE.

THERE'S A LOCKABLE DOOR.

THERE'S HOT RUNNING WATER.

AND I BELIEVE AND TONY PENROSE SHARES THE SAME VIEW, THAT IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN UNTIL SHE WAS IN THAT BATH THAT SHE REALIZED HANG ON A SECOND.

THIS MIGHT JUST BE SOMETHING I NEED TO DO.

>> TO WASH OFF THE HORROR.

>> TO WASH OFF THE DIRT OF DACHAU AND THE HORROR AND THE EVIL IN HITLER'S BATHTUB, TO STAMP THAT MUD INTO HIS GIRLY LEMON YELLOW BATH MAT, AS SHE HERSELF DESCRIBED IT.

IT'S PURE LEE.

IT JUST DOESN'T SURPRISE ME, NOW I KNOW HER AS INTIMATELY AS I DO, I CAN ABSOLUTELY SEE WHY SHE WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> WE HAVE ANOTHER CLIP WHERE LEE HAS SENT THESE PICTURES OF THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS BACK TO VOGUE.

YOU SEE THE SORT OF LEE CUTTING THEM UP IN ANGER BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PRINTED, AND SHE WANTS TO GET THIS STORY OUT.

WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS CLIP.

>> STOP STOP STOP STOP.

>> HISTORICAL RECORD.

>> WHO CARES?

NOBODY SAW THEM, YOU DIDN'T PRINT THEM.

>> I FOUGHT FOR THEM, LEE.

I FOUGHT FOR THEM.

THESE MUST BE PRESERVED.

>> TO STAY IN A FILING CABINET.

>> THE MINISTER THOUGHT THEY WOULD STIR PEOPLE.

>> THIS HAPPENED.

THIS REALLY HAPPENED.

>> LEE, LEE, LEE.

THESE IMAGES WILL DISTURB PEOPLE MORE THAN THEY HAVE BEEN DISTURBED.

PEOPLE NEED TO MOVE ON.

>> MOVE ON?

MOVE ON.

A LITTLE GIRL IN A DEATH CAMP.

BEATEN.

HOW DOES SHE MOVE ON?

EVER, EVER.

EVER.

>> SO FOR ME, THAT WAS AN INCREDIBLE SCENE BECAUSE HAVING COVERED WAR MYSELF, AND SOMETIMES BEING TOLD YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT AMOUNT OF DETAIL OR THAT AMOUNT OF ACTUAL HORROR, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY, THE REACTION THAT LEE HAD.

TELL ME ABOUT HER AND THE ARGUMENT SHE WAS HAVING WITH THE EDITOR WHO WAS ON HER SIDE, THE EDITOR WAS A BIG SUPPORTER OF HER.

AND DID THOSE PICTURES EVENTUALLY GET PUBLISHED, AND WHAT IMPACT DID THEY HAVE?

>> SO, LEE AND AUDREY, THEY HAD A RATHER EXCEPTIONAL RELATIONSHIP.

THEIR BOND CROSSED OVER FROM A BOSS AND AN EMPLOYEE INTO THE TERRITORY OF VERY GENTLE, IMPORTANT FEMALE PARTNERSHIP.

THIS REALLY HAPPENED, THIS SCENE.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY DID TAKE PLACE.

I MET A WOMAN WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING THE FILM WHO IS NOW IN HER 90s WHO WAS A 15-YEAR-OLD SECRETARY AT VOGUE AT THE TIME.

SHE TOLD ME THIS STORY.

SHE SAID KATE, I WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED THAT WAS RATHER REMARKABLE.

LEE CAME IN ONE DAY AND SHE WAS RATHER DRUNK.

SHE WAS IN A TERRIBLE STATE, AND SHE WAS FURIOUS THAT MORE OF HER PHOTOGRAPHS HADN'T BEEN PRINTED IN BRITISH VOGUE AND SHE STARTED PULLING OPEN DRAWERS AND RIPPING OPEN BOXES UNTIL SHE FOUND HER NEGATIVES AND PICKED UP MY SCISSORS AND STARTED HACKING INTO THEM.

AS THOUGH SHE WAS TRYING TO CUT THEM OUT OF HERSELF.

THAT'S HOW I READ THAT.

AND THE ONLY WAY THIS YOUNG GIRL COULD GET LEE TO STOP CUTTING FOR FEAR SHE WAS GOING TO HURT HERSELF, SHE SAID NOW YOU LOOK HERE, LEE MILLER.

THOSE ARE MY GOOD SCISSORS.

YOU JOLLY WELL GIVE THEM BACK.

LEE LOOKED HER IN THE EYE, ALMOST STARTLED BY THIS YOUNG GIRL'S FIRMNESS, AND SHE STOPPED AND PUT THE SCISSORS DOWN AND LEFT.

I HAVE ACTUALLY HELD THOSE CUT-UP NEGATIVES MYSELF IN MY HAND.

AND WHEN I HEARD THAT STORY, I KNEW IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A PART OF OUR FILM PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THAT DEEP METAPHOR THAT LEE WAS SO TRAUMATIZED AND SO DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET RID OF THESE THINGS THAT SHE HAD SEEN, LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE.

LEE FELT COMPLETELY BETRAYED BY THAT.

AND ACTUALLY THERE WAS AN INTERVIEW WITH AUDREY THAT WE LISTENED TO FROM THE '80s BEFORE SHE DIED WHERE SHE DOES SAY IN FACT IT DID HAUNT HER FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE THAT SHE HADN'T DONE MORE.

BUT SHE DID HAVE THEM PRINTED IN AMERICAN VOGUE.

IN AN ARTICLE ENTITLED BELIEVE IT.

THEY WERE PRINTED ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE AND ACROSS MANY MORE PAGES IN THE END, AND AUDREY DID FIGHT FOR THAT.

>> YOU HAVE PLAYED OTHER CHARACTERS OF THE WORLD WAR II NAZI ERA.

THE READER NOTABLY, YOU GOT AN OSCAR FOR IT.

YOU STARTED, I THINK, YOUR FILM CAREER WHEN YOU WERE 17 OR SO.

YOUR DAD, I READ, DROVE YOU TO THE AUDITION FOR HEAVENLY CREATURES.

AND IT APPEARS THAT YOU GREW UP IN A VERY LEVEL-HEADED, LOVING FAMILY.

AND I JUST WONDER, GIVEN ALL THE TRAUMA AND PTSD THAT YOU PORTRAY IN FILMS OF THOSE CHARACTERS, WHAT HELPED YOU GET THROUGH A SUPERSTAR CAREER IN THE LEVEL-HEADED WAY THAT YOU SEEM TO HAVE TURNED OUT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE HONEST ANSWER IS, YOU KNOW, PART OF ME IS NOT SURE.

I THINK PERHAPS EXACTLY AS YOU POINT OUT, I DID HAVE AND DO HAVE AN EXTREMELY GROUNDED, LOVING FAMILY WHO CARE ABOUT THE IMPORTANT THINGS.

THEY CARE ABOUT TOGETHERNESS, THEY CARE ABOUT FEASTING AND SHARING.

AND STOPPING AND CLIMBING TREES AND NOT BEING ENDLESSLY CONSUMED BY PHONES AND SOCIAL MEDIA.

AND WHAT THE WHITE NOISE IS SAYING.

I HAVE NEVER READ REVIEWS.

I HAVE NEVER BEEN MOTIVATED BY THE WRONG THING.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU GROW UP IN A FAMILY THAT IS SO WEALTHY WITH HEART AND WEALTHY WITH AFFECTION AND SPONTANEITY, IT MEANT THAT I FELT I WAS NEVER SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING MORE IN MYSELF.

I WAS SEARCHING FOR A DREAM.

I WAS PURSUING A DREAM THAT I BELIEVED IN.

I KNEW I WANTED TO ACT.

I WAS DETERMINED TO DO IT.

AND SO WHEN I WENT FOR THAT AUDITION FOR HEAVENLY CREATURES, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT, EVEN HOLDING A FILM SCRIPT IN MY HAND, WOW, THIS IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.

KIND OF HEAVY AND THICK.

OH, MY GOD, THIS CHARACTER WHO IS ON EVERY SINGLE PAGE.

MY GOODNESS.

IF I COULD GET THIS JOB, AND MY DAD JUST LOOKED AT ME AND SAID YOU'LL GET IT.

I THOUGHT, YES, ACTUALLY, YES.

AND FROM THEN ON, I HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO MAINTAIN A SENSE OF GROUNDEDNESS, DETERMINATION, PERHAPS WHEN I WAS MUCH YOUNGER WAS POSSIBLY SOMETHING THAT GAVE ME THE COURAGE TO EVEN WALK OVER THE THRESHOLD AND INTO THOSE AUDITION ROOMS.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO JUST TRICK YOURSELF.

IT IS ME THEY WANT.

THEY JUST WON'T KNOW UNTIL I WALK IN THE ROOM.

OKAY, IT'S ME.

>> AT SOME POINT, THOUGH, YOU HAD SO MUCH PRESSURE FROM THE PUBLIC GAZE, PROBABLY THE MALE GAZE.

YOU HAD SO MANY PAPARAZZI.

YOU DEVELOPED A BIT OF A CRISIS, A HEALTH CRISIS OVER ALL THAT.

HOW DID YOU GET THROUGH THAT DARK TUNNEL?

>> I THINK WHERE I WAS VERY FORTUNATE, AND I ALWAYS JUMP TO THE POSITIVE, IS MENTALLY, I WAS OKAY.

I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T CRACK.

I DIDN'T HAVE A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN.

I HAVE NEVER TAKEN DRUGS.

REALLY NEVER TAKEN DRUGS.

AND ACTUALLY, PEOPLE WILL OFTEN SAY TO ME, HOW DID YOU NOT COMPLETELY GO UNDER?

AGAIN, THAT IS BECAUSE I HAVE THIS LEVEL FAMILY.

IF IN DOUBT, I GO HOME FOR SUNDAY LUNCH AND MY MOM WOULD HAVE PUT THE WORLD TO RIGHTS WITH HER WONDERFUL ROAST DINNER.

BUT I WAS A BIT POWERLESS AS TO HOW TO NAVIGATE THE WAY WHEN DEALING WITH A LEVEL OF SCRUTINY FROM MAINSTREAM MEDIA THAT I KNEW WAS MORALLY VERY WRONG.

AND WHAT WAS I GOING TO DO, STAND UP AND DEFEND MYSELF FOR JUST BEING MYSELF?

I MEAN, I WASN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG.

I WAS JUST BEING CRITICIZED FOR HOW I LOOKED PHYSICALLY.

THAT IS NOT OKAY.

AND IT MAKES ME SO HAPPY TO SIT BACK AND WATCH WONDERFUL, POWERFUL YOUNG ACTRESSES WHO ARE JUST GORGEOUS AND ENJOYING THIS EXPERIENCE OF ACTING GOING INTO FULFILLING CAREERS AND STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES AND EACH OTHER.

AND NOT BEING AFRAID TO SAY HANG ON A MINUTE, YOU CAN'T SAY THAT ABOUT ME.

THAT'S NOT NICE.

AND IT'S A WONDERFUL THING TO THINK THAT I MIGHT HAVE, YOU KNOW, BEEN A PART OF IGNITING THAT DISCUSSION AND MAKING SURE THAT THOSE CONVERSATIONS CONTINUE TO HAPPEN, BECAUSE IT REMAINS TO BE SPECTACULARLY IMPORTANT.

>> WHICH BRINGS US FULL CIRCLE TO LEE MILLER AGAIN IN THE FILM.

IN THE FILM, THERE ARE SCENES TOWARD THE BEGINNING OF THOSE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, EPICUREAN DELIGHTS IN THE GARDEN.

THERE'S MANRAY, ALL THE OTHER CHARACTERS, AND LEE IS SITTING THERE BARE CHESTED, BARE BREASTED, AND SHE'S NOT NECESSARILY THE FITTEST.

I READ THAT YOU DECIDED NOT TO EXERCISE WHILE YOU WERE PREPARING FOR THE FILM TO GIVE YOUR BODY A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A SOFT TOUCH.

>> YOU JUST DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO BE TRUE TO THE ROLE THAT YOU'RE PLAYING.

AND THAT'S WHO LEE WAS.

SHE WAS SO COMFORTABLE WITH HER PHYSICAL SELF.

SHE LIVED LIFE AT FULL THROTTLE ON HER TERMS.

IN EVERY CAPACITY.

MENTALLY, EMOTIONALLY, SEXUALLY, PHYSICALLY, WITH HER FRIENDSHIPS, WITH HER LOVERS, WITH THE JOB THAT SHE DID, WITH HOW SHE SAW THE WORLD.

SHE SAW IT HER WAY.

SHE DID THINGS HER WAY.

AND THAT AS A MESSAGE NOW, I THINK, IS PHENOMENALLY IMPORTANT FOR WOMEN.

AND I HAVE TO SAY, I AM A LOT LIKE THAT MYSELF.

SHE WAS REALLY COMFORTABLE WITH HER BODY.

IN A WAY THAT IS, WAS, ADMIRABLE.

AND IS A VERY FAMOUS RECREATION OF A PHOTOGRAPH THAT SOME OF WHICH WERE TAKEN BY LEE, SOME BY MANRAY, OF THIS PICNIC SCENE, AND IT'S HOT, THE WOMEN AREN'T WEARING THEIR TOPS.

THE MEN, THEY DON'T WEAR THEIR SHIRTS.

AND YEAH, WE WANTED LEE TO BE NAKED ON HER TERMS THROUGHOUT THE FILM.

SO WE NEVER SEXUALIZED HER EVER, AND THAT WAS A CHOICE THAT WE MADE.

AND IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE STUCK TO THAT.

AND I LOVE IT.

I THINK IT'S VERY POWERFUL.

>> INDEED.

KATE WINSLET, THANK YOU SO MUCH, FOR DEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND LEE IS OUT IN CINEMAS NOW.

>>> NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE THE VOTES OF 63 MILLION LATINOS WILL BE A DECIDING FACTOR IN WHO BECOMES THE NEXT PRESIDENT.

DESPITE A HISTORY OF ANTI-IMMIGRATION RHETORIC, DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN MAKING INROADS WITH THIS CONSTITUENCY, WHICH WAS ONCE RELIABLY DEMOCRATIC.

OUR NEXT GUEST INVESTIGATES THIS SHIFT IN HER NEW BOOK "DEFECTORS" THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA.

AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST PAOLO RAMOS JOINS US TO EXPLAIN.

>> THANKS.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK TITLE IS THE DEFECTORS, THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA.

LET'S UNPACK THE TITLE HERE.

HOW ABOUT THE RISE?

HOW DID WE GET TO WHERE WE ARE NOW?

>> YEAH, I THINK IN STARTING IN 2016, I WAS ACTUALLY WORKING ON THE HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN AT THAT POINT.

AND I THINK SO MUCH OF THE THEORY OF CHANGE IN THAT CAMPAIGN, SO MUCH OF WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE WINNING FORMULA FOR HILLARY CLINTON, I REMEMBER PERFECTLY, WAS THIS IDEA THAT IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP, AT THAT POINT WAS SAYING THINGS LIKE MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS ARE CRIMINALS, RAPISTS, THE IDEA WAS THE LATINO VOTING BLOC WOULD RISE IN THESE UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS OR INDEPENDENTS, THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE BELIEVED.

AND THEN FAST FORWARD, OF COURSE, TO NOVEMBER 2016, AND THE CASE IS THAT LESS THAN 50% OF LATINOS SHOWED UP.

AND THEN COMES NOVEMBER 2020.

AND AFTER FOUR YEARS OF TRUMPISM, AFTER THE COUNTRY SEES FAMILY SEPARATIONS, AFTER THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN SHOWS THE ELECTORATE SORT OF THOSE VIDEOS REMINDING PEOPLE OF THE CRIES OF THOSE CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED, AFTER FOUR YEARS OF THAT, DONALD TRUMP DOES BETTER WITH LATINO VOTERS IN 2020 THAN HE DOES IN 2016.

I THINK IT'S BETWEEN 8 TO 10 POINTS.

PEW RESEARCH HAS HIM AT 38% IN NOVEMBER 2020.

AT THAT POINT, BASED ON THOSE RESULTS, BASED ON A LOT OF THE CONVERSATIONS I WAS HAVING ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITH LATINO VOTERS, UNDERSTANDING THE WAY THAT IN VERY SUBTLE WAYS THEY WERE WARMING UP TO THINGS LIKE MASS DEPORTATIONS AND THE WALL AND CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

I UNDERSTOOD LATINOS WERE SENDING A DIFFERENT MESSAGE, PERHAPS THE IDEA OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS BECOMING A LITTLE MORE FRACTURED.

>> YOU BREAK THE BOOK DOWN KIND OF INTO THREE BIG SUBSECTIONS.

TRIBALISM, TRADITIONALISM, AND TRAUMA.

EXPLAIN THE ROLE OF WHAT TRIBALISM IS AND HOW IT CONTRIBUTES TO THIS RISE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK WHEN WE THINK OF THE IDEA OF LATINO TRUMP SUPPORTERS, THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

OR EVEN POLITICS.

I THINK WHAT I DISCOVERED IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE REAL ANSWERS, THE HARDEST ANSWERS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE PERHAPS MORE UNCOMFORTABLE TO TALK ABOUT.

BY THAT I MEAN REALLY UNDERSTANDING THE SORT OF RACIAL BAGGAGE THAT I BELIEVE A LOT OF LATINOS INCLUDING MYSELF, A LOT OF US ARE CARRYING FROM LATIN AMERICA.

WHAT IT MEANS TO SORT OF HAVE BEEN COLONIZED FOR SO MANY YEARS, THE WEIGHT OF COLONIZATION.

THAT IN AND OF ITSELF CREATES I BELIEVE A LOT OF INTERNALIZED RACISM, COLORISM, THAT MANIFESTS IN AMERICAN POLITICS IN NOT SO MANY WAYS.

AND THAT'S THEN HOW YOU CAN EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT EVEN LIKE SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP FEELS SO COMFORTABLE, FOR INSTANCE, GOING TO THE BRONX.

TALKING TO A GROUP OF BLACK LATINOS AND LATINO TRUMP SUPPORTERS, BECAUSE HE BELIEVES HE CAN SORT OF TAP INTO A RACIAL AND ETHNIC GRIEVANCE THAT IS VERY FAMILIAR TO SOME LATINOS.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED ISABEL, WHAT DID SHE REPRESENT ABOUT THIS IDEA, THIS ANTI-BLACKNESS?

>> ISABEL IS SOMEONE I TALKED TO IN THE BRONX.

SHE IS AN AFRO LATINA, A BLACK DOMINICAN WOMAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER IN 2016 AND 2020.

AND SHE PLANS ON VOTING FOR HIM NOW.

AND ISABEL IS SOMEONE THAT WAS PARTICULARLY DRAWN TO DONALD TRUMP NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HIS POLICY PROPOSALS BUT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF THE WAY IN WHICH HE SORT OF CRIMINALIZED AND STIGMATIZED SOMETHING LIKE BLACK LIVES MATTER.

SHE SAW A DISTANCE BETWEEN HERSELF AND HER IDENTITY AS AN AFRO LATINA AND SORT OF AMERICAN BLACK POPULATION.

AND EVEN WHEN I WAS CONVERSING WITH HER, SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS HOW DO YOU IDENTIFY, ISABEL, AND HER FIRST ANSWER WAS I'M A HISPANIC, AND WHEN YOU PUSH BACK AND SAY WHAT IS YOUR RACE?

HOW DO YOU SEE YOUR RACE?

HOW DO YOU IDENTIFY THROUGH THAT LENS?

SHE KEPT GOING BACK TO THIS IDEA, I AM HISPANIC AND I'M NOT BLACK.

ALWAYS SORT OF INSURING THAT SHE CREATED A DISTANCE BETWEEN HERSELF AND BLACK AMERICANS.

SO THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

WHAT DOES SHE SEE IN TRUMPISM THROUGH THE WAY THAT SHE IDENTIFIES?

IT HAS SO MUCH TO DO WITH THE 15th CENTURY, THE WAY THAT THE SPANISH COLONIZERS REALLY INSTITUTED A CASTE SYSTEM AND GAVE SO MANY LATINOS REGARDLESS OF YOUR RACE AND BACKGROUND AND ETHNICITY, IT GAVE EVERYONE THE PERMISSION TO ALWAYS SORT OF DRAW DIRECT LINE TO YOUR WHITENESS, ALWAYS DRAW A DIRECT LINE TO THE SPANISH COLONIZERS.

AND IN THIS COUNTRY, WE'RE SORT OF RACE IS SEEN IN BINARIES, SOMEONE LIKE ISABEL, WHEN SHE HAS TO OPT BETWEEN BEING BLACK OR BEING WHITE, UNDER THE GUISE OF BEING A HISPANIC, SHE CHOOSES WHITENESS.

AND IN THAT, THAT'S WHERE TRUMPISM IS ABLE TO REALLY TAP THAT GRIEVANCE.

>> YOU SPENT QUITE A BIT OF TIME WITH LATINO EVANGELICALS, WHICH IS A SUBGROUPING THAT MOST AMERICANS HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO.

WHY IS THAT GROUP IMPORTANT IN THIS COMING ELECTION CYCLE?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE I THINK REPUBLICANS AND DONALD TRUMP AND THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT AS THEY'RE SEEING SORT OF THE RATE OF WHITE EVANGELICALS AND WHITE CHRISTIANS DECLINE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THEY'RE SEEING AN OPPORTUNITY WITHIN LATINO EVANGELICALS AND EVEN WE THINK ABOUT NOVEMBER 2020, DURING THAT CAMPAIGN CYCLE, DONALD TRUMP LAUNCHES HIS EVANGELICALS FOR TRUMP, NOT EVEN HIS LATINO EVANGELICALS FOR TRUMP, BUT HIS EVANGELICALS FOR TRUMP NATIONAL CAMPAIGN.

HE LAUNCHES IT, NOT IN OHIO OR PENNSYLVANIA OR WEST VIRGINIA.

HE GOES TO MIAMI-DADE COUNTY.

HE TALKS TO A GROUP OF LATINO EVANGELICALS.

SO THE OPPORTUNITY THEY'RE SEEING THERE IS THE FACT THAT LATINOS HAVE BECOME THE FASTEST GROWING GROUP OF EVANGELICALS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY'RE ALSO, IF YOU DIG INTO THE NUMBERS, YOU SEE LATINO EVANGELICALS OVER 50% OF THEM BELIEVE IN THINGS LIKE CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

THEY'RE ABLE TO SORT OF BLUR THE LINES BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE.

AND WHAT USED TO BE SAFE SPACES FOR A LOT OF LATINO EVANGELICALS, SO MANY ASYLUM SEEKERS AND MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS WOULD COME TO THIS COUNTRY AND ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THEY DO, YOU FIND A CHURCH.

THAT'S SORT OF WHERE YOU FEEL AT HOME.

WHAT USED TO BE THE SAFE SPACES, THESE PLACES OF REFUGEE, THESE PLACES OF COMMUNITY, AND THE LAST FIVE YEARS THEY HAVE BECOME SO POLITICIZED.

YOU HAVE SO MANY PASTORS THAT HAVE INTERVIEWED THAT ARE STARTING TO MERGE THE WORLDS OF MAGA AND POLITICS AND FAITH.

AND TYPICALLY THROUGH THIS SORT OF FRAMING OF IT'S GOOD VERSUS EVIL.

AND THAT REALLY CATCHES PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

AND THEN THESE PASTORS, THEY'RE VERY CHARISMATIC PASTORS THAT ARE VERY COMMANDING AND HAVE SO MUCH POWER OVER THEIR FOLKS.

I REMEMBER DURING COVID, DURING THE PANDEMIC, ONE OF THE WOMEN I INTERVIEWED TOLD ME THAT SHE WOULDN'T LISTEN TO DR. FAUCI, BUT SHE WOULD LISTEN TO HER PASTOR.

IT WAS HER PASTOR WHO WOULD TELL HER TO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE, TO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO MAINSTREAM MEDIA, TO PAY ATTENTION TO HIM.

SO THAT SORT OF SHOWS YOU THE WAY THESE SPACES ARE SHIFTING.

PART OF IT IS A POLITICAL STRATEGY.

IF WHITE CHRISTIANS WANT TO SURVIVE, IF TRUMPISM WANTS TO SURVIVE, THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY NEED LATINOS AND THEY'RE DOING IT.

>> YOU INTRODUCE US TO A CHARACTER, ANTHONY, KNOWN AS CONSERVATIVE ANTHONY.

WHAT'S HE LIKE?

>> ANTHONY IS SOMEONE THAT IS TYPICALLY PATROLLING THE U.S. MEXICO BORDER, HE SITS IN HIS CAR FOR MANY HOURS A DAY.

HE HAS A PHONE, A GO-PRO, AND HE HAS BECOME IN HIS OWN WORDS AN INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST.

SO HE'S JUST DOING THESE LIVESTREAMS UP AND DOWN THE U.S./MEXICO BORDER, PARTICULARLY IN THE EL PASO SECTOR.

NOW, MOST OF HIS CONTENT IS ESSENTIALLY THE FALLING.

HE TAKES LIVE' STREAM VIDEOS OF ASYLUM SEEKERS CROSSING, MIGRANTS CROSSING, AND TYPICALLY THE DESCRIPTION OF THE VIDEOS AS HE'S TALKING TO THE CAMERA IS THIS IDEA THAT THOSE MIGRANTS THAT HE'S CAPTURING ARE DANGEROUS PEOPLE.

THAT THEY'RE HERE TO INVADE THE COUNTRY, AND THAT THEY POSE A FUNDAMENTAL THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES.

HE'S BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS.

NOW, ANTHONY IS A FIRST GENERATION AMERICAN.

HIS FAMILY ARE MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS.

THEY LEFT MEXICO BECAUSE OF VIOLENCE.

I THINK WHAT ANTHONY REPRESENTS IS REALLY AN EXTREME EXAMPLE, I HAVE TO BE CLEAR, HE'S AN EXTREME EXAMPLE, ALL OF THESE CHARACTERS ARE EXTREME EXAMPLES OF A PATTERN THAT IS HAPPENING.

IT'S THIS IDEA THAT MORE AND MORE LATINOS, PARTICULARLY THIRD GENERATION, PARTICULARLY A SECTOR LIKE ANTHONY THAT IS BECOMING MORE AMERICANIZED AND MORE ASSIMILATED ARE WARMING UP TO THE IDEA OF THE MASS DEPORTATIONS AND THE WALL AND THE OTHERIZING, AND I THINK ANTHONY IS THE MOST EXTREME EXAMPLE OF THAT.

HE'S SOMEONE THAT IN CONVERSATION, MOST OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO IS SORT OF RE-ENFORCE THE IDEA, LOOK, I CAN BE A MEXICAN AMERICAN, BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM.

THEY'RE DIFFERENT THAN I AM.

I THINK ONCE AGAIN, SORT OF WHAT TRUMPISM IS REALLY BETTING ON.

THIS IDEA THAT PEOPLE LIKE ANTHONY HAVE BECOME SO AMERICANIZED, SO ASSIMILATED THAT THEY TOO CAN SORT OF BUY INTO THE NATIVISM, THEY TOO CAN PLAY THE US VERSUS THEM GAME.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, I WOULD SAY THE MOST SORT OF COMPLICATED FACTOR IN ALL OF THAT IS THAT I GOT THIS IMPRESSION WITH ANTHONY Y THINK THERE'S THIS FEAR AMONG SOME LATINOS THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AS AMERICAN AS ANYONE ELSE, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY SINCE THEY WERE BORN, I THINK THERE'S THIS FEAR THAT SORT OF WHITE AMERICA, MAINSTREAM AMERICA WILL ALWAYS SEE THEM AS A SORT OF PERPETUAL FOREIGNER IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

I GOT EVEN THAT SENSE WITH ANTHONY, THE SORT OF WAY HE KEPT RE-ENFORCING HIS AMERICANNESS.

AND THAT FEAR OF SORT OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS OTHERIZING YOU, THEN FOR SOME LATINOS, THAT IN AND OF ITSELF CAN SORT OF LEAD YOU TOWARD EXTREMISM.

CAN LEAD YOU TO REALLY, REALLY, REALLY DRIVE YOU TO MAKE THE CASE THAT I BELONG IN THIS COUNTRY, AND IN SOME WAYS, IT LEADS YOU TO SOMEONE LIKE ANTHONY.

>> JUST IN JUNE, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN KIND OF RELAUNCHED A COALITION CALLED LATINO AMERICANS FOR TRUMP.

I WONDER IF YOU SEE ANYTHING ABOUT JUST THE WAY THAT THAT'S TITLED AND LABELED, IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT'S SO STRATEGIC AND SO INTENTIONAL THAT THEY'RE NOT JUST SAYING LATINOS FOR TRUMP.

IT'S LATINO AMERICANS FOR TRUMP.

IT'S, AGAIN, BETTING ON THIS IDEA THAT THERE IS A SEGMENT OF LATINOS THAT IS SO AMERICANIZED NOW, THAT IT WOULD BE VERY EASY FOR THEM TO TAP INTO THE OTHERIZING AND THE NATIVISM AND THE ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE LATINO ELECTORATE TODAY COMPARED TO 20 YEARS AGO, THERE'S SOME SENSE TO THAT STRATEGY.

THEY SEE IT IS THIRD GENERATION LATINOS THEREAT THE FASTEST GROWING SEGMENT OF LATINOS.

THEY'RE UNDERSTANDING AMONG THE VOTING BLOC, THE MAJORITY ARE U.S. BORN, THE MAJORITY ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 50, AND THE MAJORITY SPEAK ENGLISH.

SO AGAIN, THE BET THERE IS TO REALLY TRY AND DRIVE LATINOS TO GET A GROUP OF LATINOS TO BELIEVE, LOOK, YOU'RE PART OF US.

YOU'RE NOT ONE OF THEM, YOU'RE NOT PART OF THOSE LATINOS.

YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE BLACK COALITION, NOT PART OF THE IMMIGRANTS.

AGAIN, THE OTHERIZING INFUSED IS VERY POWERFUL.

JUST BECAUSE WE'RE LATINOS OR IMMIGRANTS DOES NOT MAKE US IMMUNE TO THAT RHETORIC.

IN FACT, THERE'S A LOT OF POWER TO THAT WHEN YOU ARE A MINORITY IN THE COUNTRY AND SOMEONE TELLS YOU, YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU BELONG WITH US, THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL.

>> YOU ALSO ARE ABLE TO IN THIS BOOK TAKE THIS SORT OF 30,000-FOOT VIEW OF HISTORY FOR A LOT OF READERS THAT MIGHT NOT REALLY KNOW ABOUT AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN LATIN AMERICA AND SOUTH AMERICA.

AND YOU WRITE, THE U.S.'S LEGACY OF SPREADING AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM IN LATIN AMERICA HAS CAST A LONG SHADOW DIRECTLY IMPACTING ITS CURRENT BATTLE WITH DEMOCRACY.

UNPACK THAT A LITTLE BIT.

>> I THINK SPECIFICALLY I WRITE THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF I THINK A PHENOMENON WE'RE SEEING NOW IN POLITICS AND WE HAVE BEEN SEEING IT FOR YEARS AT THIS POINT, FOR INSTANCE, JUST TO GROUND PEOPLE IN REAL EXAMPLES, YOU OFTEN SEE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TRYING TO CAST TRUMP AS A DICTATOR, FOR INSTANCE.

THEY USE THE WORD A LOT, AND THE THINKING THERE GOES, THE STRATEGY IS IF YOU CAN MAKE A GROWING GROUP OF LATINOS BELIEVE THAT DONALD TRUMP IS THAT, THEN THEY WILL BE SCARED OF THAT IMAGE BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL TRAUMA THAT MANY LATINOS CARRY WITH THEM.

IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

THERE'S A CERTAIN RISK OF A BACKLASH THERE BECAUSE SO MANY LATINOS HAVE A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMETHING LIKE STRONGMEN RULE AND WAYS THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE EVEN THROUGH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE THAT AT TIMES, WHEN SORT OF DEMOCRACY FEELS MESSY AND UNSTABLE AND CHAOTIC, AT TIMES THIS IDEA OF STRONGMAN RULE IS NECESSARY.

TO BRING IT BACK, NOT TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND TO WAY PERHAPS THAT THE U.S. HAS CREATED THAT CONTEXT, THINK ABOUT THE 20th CENTURY.

THE WAY THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN THIS SORT OF NAME OF RIDDING THE WEST OF COMMUNIST AND THE RED SCARE IN LATIN AMERICA, WHETHER IT WAS TO PERU TO CHILE, NICARAGUA, THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTED STRONGMAN RULE, AND SOME CASES THEY SUPPORTED MILITARY JUNTAS.

AND IT CREATED THAT CONDITION THAT IN CERTAIN MOMENTS, WHEN IT HAS TO DO WITH RIDDING COMMUNISM, PERHAPS ANY FORM OF POLITICAL CIVILITY, THIS IDEA MAY BE NECESSARY.

AND THEN WHEN YOU ADD SORT OF THE FACT THAT MANY LATINOS THAT COME TO THE UNITED STATES FROM LATIN AMERICA, OVER 70%, CARRY THOSE POLITICAL TRAUMAS WITH THEM, AND THOSE ARE TRAUMAS THAT ARE THEN PASSED ON THROUGH GENERATIONS.

THEN YOU REALLY START TO EXPLAIN WHY SOMETHING LIKE FRAMING DONALD TRUMP MAY NOT ALWAYS REALLY STICK WITH PEOPLE.

>> WHAT WAS INTERESTING JUST IN THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS TO WATCH IS HOW KAMALA HARRIS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS PIVOTED MORE TO THE RIGHT ON IMMIGRATION RELATED ISSUES.

HER RESPONSE TO DONALD TRUMP IS USUALLY ABOUT A PIECE OF LEGISLATION, A BIPARTISAN BILL THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT HELPED KILL FROM THE OUTSIDE.

AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO SAY STATES LIKE ARIZONA WHERE YOU JUST RECENTLY WERE FOR A REPORTING TRIP, HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT?

>> LOOK, I THINK WE'RE ABOUT TO SEE HOW THAT MESSAGE WILL RESONATE IN A BATTLEGROUND STATE LIKE ARIZONA OR NEVADA.

IT MAKES SENSE, AFTER EIGHT YEARS OF SORT OF INJECTING SO MUCH FEARMONGERING IN THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE, I'M TALKING TO YOU FROM NEW YORK CITY, WHERE MILES AWAY FROM THE BORDER AND I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW ONOFTEN IT IS NEW YORKERS TELL ME MIGRANTS ARE POSING A THREAT TO MY EXISTENTIAL BEING.

DONALD TRUMP AND REPUBLICANS HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB AT CREATING SO MUCH FEAR ABOUT MIGRANTS AND ASYLUM SEEKERS AND THE BORDER THAT YOU HAVE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT IS SORT OF PLAYING INTO THAT REPUBLICAN TRAP AND IS REALLY SHIFTING TO THE CENTER ON THIS ISSUE.

NOW, IN THE NOVEMBER 2020 ELECTION AND 2016, DEMOCRATS TYPICALLY SORT OF DISTANCED THEMSELVES FROM REPUBLICANS BY SAYING LOOK, WE'RE THE PARTY THAT WILL PASS COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM.

WE'RE THE PARTY THAT WILL HUMANIZE AND SORT OF REINSTATE DIGNITY AT THE BORDER AND INTEGRITY AT THE BORDER.

HERE YOU HAVE VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS THAT IS SHIFTING THAT MESSAGE.

WHEN SHE TALKS ABOUT THE BORDER AND IMMIGRATION, SHE TYPICALLY LEADS WITH BORDER SECURITY, AND IS PRESENTING THIS IMAGE OF HERSELF AS A SORT OF TOUGH ON CRIME, TOUGH ON THE BORDER.

SO TO YOUR POINT, DOES THAT RESONATE?

MAYBE IT RESONATES IN PENNSYLVANIA.

MAYBE IT RESONATES HERE IN NEW YORK.

MAYBE IN OHIO.

PERHAPS IN FLORIDA.

BUT IN A STATE LIKE ARIZONA AND NEVADA, WHERE IMMIGRATION IS SO PERSONAL FOR LATINOS THERE, I WONDER HOW MUCH THAT WILL LAND.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LATINO ELECTORATE WHERE YOUNG LATINOS THAT NOW HAVE A LOT OF POLITICAL POWER, SAW THEIR PARENTS BEING CRIMINALIZED AND TARGETED BY SHERIFF JOE ORPIO, UNDER SB-1070, THEY SAW THE WAY LATINOS WERE RACIALLY PROFILED.

I THINK BASED ON THE CONVERSATIONS I HAD, THERE'S A LOT OF LATINOS THERE THAT ARE SCARED OF DONALD TRUMP'S MASS DEPORTATIONS PROMISES, THAT ARE SCARED OF THE ARIZONA IMMIGRATION BALLOT, THAT THREAT TO BRING BACK ARIZONA TO THOSE DAYS OF SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT MESSAGE FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT.

PERHAPS A MESSAGE THAT IS MORE SIMILAR TO WHAT JOE BIDEN SAID IN 2020, WHICH WAS LEADING WITH WE NEED COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM.

WE NEED TO HUMANIZE IMMIGRANTS, AND THAT'S SORT OF THE SENSE I GET.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE DEFECTORS, THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA."

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER MAY BE IN HOSPICE CARE, BUT HE'S STIM MARKING MILESTONES.

AND HE GOES SOMEWHERE NO OTHER U.S. LEADER HAS GONE BEFORE.

BY REACHING 100 YEARS OLD TODAY.

GROWING UP DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF FDR, HIS OWN STINT IN THE WHITE HOUSE CAME IN 1977, WHEN HE INHERITED A FRAGILE POST-VIETNAM, POST-WATERGATE AMERICA.

NONETHELESS, HE BROKERED THE FIRST EVER ISRAEL/ARAB PEACE TREATY, THE CAMP DAVID ACCORDS WITH EGYPT.

>> THE STRUGGLE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS OVERRIDES ALL DIFFERENCES OF COLOR OR NATION OR LANGUAGE.

THOSE WHO HUNGER FOR FREEDOM, FOR THIRST FOR HUMAN DIGNITY, AND WHO SUFFER FOR THE SAKE OF JUSTICE, THEY ARE THE PATRIOTS OF THIS CAUSE.

I BELIEVE WITH ALL MY HEART THAT AMERICA MUST ALWAYS STAND FOR THESE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS AT HOME AND ABROAD.

THAT IS BOTH OUR HISTORY AND OUR DESTINY.

>> DESPITE BEING A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT, HE WENT ON TO HAVE GREAT SUCCESS AFTERWARDS.

THE CARTER FOUNDATION VIRTUALLY ERADICATED THE EXCRUCIATING SICKNESS CAUSED BY GUINEA WORM IN AFRICA AND WORKED TIRELESSLY TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY WORLDWIDE BY MONITORING ELECTIONS WHICH NOW WILL BE FOCUSED CLOSER TO HOME.

AS FEARS FOR U.S. DEMOCRACY SWIRL AROUND THE UPCOMING U.S. ELECTION.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT WHEN WE'LL HAVE MUCH MORE ON THE MASSIVE ESCALATIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.