October 3, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE LATEST FROM THE MIDDLE EAST AS THE WIDER WAR ESCALATES AND ISRAELI BOMBS POUND BEIRUT, THE LEBANESE CAPITAL.

>>> THEN -- >> I KNOW FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY SOUL THAT WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HEAL IF THE HOSTAGES DON'T COME BACK.

>> NEARLY A YEAR SINCE OCTOBER 7th, I'M JOINED BY ONE OF ISRAEL'S MOST HIGHLY RESPECTED JOURNALISTS, ILANA DAYAN.

WHERE SEES HER COUNTRY TODAY.

>>> OUR AL JAZEERA JOURNALIST TAREQ ABU AZZOUM JOINS US FROM THERE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> I BELIEVE WHAT I WITNESSED WAS AN IMMORAL APARTHEID REGIME.

>> WRITER TA-NEHISI COATES TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HIS MUCH DISCUSSED BOOK "THE MESSAGE" WHICH GRAPPLES WITH HIS VISIT TO THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE WAR OF THREATS IS ESCALATING BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

ISRAEL'S U.N.

ENVOY DANNY DANON WARNING THAT RETALIATION FOR IRAN'S BALLISTIC MISSILE ATTACK, QUOTE, WILL BE SOON.

AND TEHRAN WARNING OF BROADER BOMBARDMENT IF ISRAEL RESPONDS.

MEANTIME, ISRAELI BOMBS STRUCK CENTRAL BEIRUT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 18 YEARS, KILLING AT LEAST NINE PEOPLE.

THE IDF ALSO SAYS IT STRUCK HEZBOLLAH'S INTELLIGENCE HEADQUARTERS IN THE SOUTH.

IT TOO HAS SUFFERED CASUALTIES.

IN THE PAST TWO WEEKS, MORE THAN A THOUSAND PEOPLE IN LEBANON HAVE BEEN KILLED.

LET'S GO STRAIGHT TO BEIRUT, WHERE JOMANA KARADSHEH IS JOINING US.

JOMANA, WE TALKED TO YOU LAST NIGHT.

THINGS JUST SEEM TO BE ESCALATING WHERE YOU ARE, AND NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NEARLY 20 YEARS, THIS STRIKE ON DOWNTOWN BEIRUT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS, WHAT WE'VE SEEN HERE IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN INTENSIFICATION IN THESE STRIKES, MOSTLY THEY'VE BEEN TARGETING THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS OF BEIRUT.

IN THE PAST FEW HOURS, WE'VE HEARD MULTIPLE STRIKES.

THE ONLY THAN ONE THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS COMMENTED ON IS THE ONE YOU MENTIONED.

THEY SAID THEY STRUCK AN INTELLIGENCE HEADQUARTERS, A HEZBOLLAH INTELLIGENCE HEADQUARTERS.

NOW HEZBOLLAH SAYS THAT ITS MEDIA OFFICE WAS HIT.

NO WORD ON CASUALTIES YET.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS HAS HAD A HEAVY PRESENCE OF HEZBOLLAH.

THIS IS WHERE THE ISRAELI MILITARY KILLED THE LEADER OF HEZBOLLAH, HASSAN NASRALLAH, AND OTHER TOP COMMANDERS.

BUT IT'S ALSO -- IT'S ONE OF THE MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREAS OF THE COUNTRY.

OR AT LEAST IT WAS.

WE'VE SEEN A MASS EXODUS FROM THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS, BUT YOU STILL HAVE CIVILIANS THERE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOWHERE TO GO, WHO DECIDED TO STAY IN THEIR HOMES.

IT HAPPENED DURING THE DAY WHERE PEOPLE, SOMETIMES WE'VE SEEN THEM RETURNING TO GET WHATEVER BELONGINGS THEY CAN GRAB.

AND, YOU KNOW, PERHAPS THE MOST WORRYING DEVELOPMENT FOR PEOPLE HERE HAS BEEN WHAT WE SAW HAPPEN NEARLY 24 HOURS AGO LATE LAST NIGHT WAS THIS STRIKE THAT YOU MENTIONED IN THE MIDDLE OF BEIRUT, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, WITH NO PRIOR WARNING, A STRIKE THAT HIT A BUILDING WITH AN OFFICE FOR A HEALTH AUTHORITY AFFILIATED WITH HEZBOLLAH.

AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT AT LEAST NINE PEOPLE WERE KILLED, SEVEN OF THEM ACCORDING TO THAT AUTHORITY ARE MEDICS.

BUT THE FEAR, THE ANXIETY, CHRISTIANE, THAT THAT CREATED HERE IS JUST VERY HARD TO PUT INTO WORDS BECAUSE WHILE THESE STRIKES HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS, NOW PEOPLE ARE FEELING THAT THEY'RE EXPANDING BEYOND THAT, HITTING THE HEART OF BEIRUT FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THAT 2006 WAR.

WE WERE OUT ON THE STREETS SPEAKING WITH PEOPLE.

YOU HEAR THEM SAYING THAT THEY FEEL NOW THAT NOWHERE IN THEIR COUNTRY, IN THEIR CITY IS SAFE ANYMORE.

THIS FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN.

THEY DESCRIBE IT THE FEAR OF A REPEAT.

THEY SAY OF WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN IN GAZA.

I MEAN, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU RIGHT NOW, AND WE CAN STILL HEAR THE ISRAELI DRONES BUZZING OVERHEAD, AS DO THE PEOPLE OF BEIRUT.

AND A REMINDER THAT A STRIKE COULD HAPPEN AT ANY TIME, ANYWHERE.

>> AND JOMANA, YOU SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HEARD THE DRONES, ET CETERA, AND PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FLEE WHEN THEY CAN.

BUT WE HEAR AND WE READ THAT THE SHELTERS SEEM TO BE OVERFLOWING.

CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT WHERE CIVILIANS ARE ABLE TO GET TO FOR SAFETY AND SHELTER?

>> IT IS SUCH A CATASTROPHIC SITUATION, CHRISTIANE.

I MEAN, JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, WE SAW THAT MASS EXODUS FROM THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS.

WE SAW THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE POURING INTO THE STREETS OF BEIRUT AS THE AIR STRIKES REALLY BEGAN IN THAT PART OF THE CAPITAL.

AND PEOPLE HAD NOWHERE TO TURN.

THEY WENT OUT.

THEY WERE SLEEPING IN PARKS, ON THE SIDEWALKS.

THE ICONIC WATERFRONT OF BEIRUT, THE CORNICHE, PEOPLE WERE JUST SITTING THERE, FAMILIES WITH YOUNG CHILDREN.

AND WHEN WE RETURNED TODAY, YOU STILL HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT ON THE STREET BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO TURN.

YOU HAVE MATTRESSES.

YOU HAVE TENTS NOW THAT ARE SET UP THERE.

AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THE SHEER NUMBERS.

MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT, HAVE BEEN DISPLACED IN A MATTER OF DAYS.

AND THEY ARE TRYING THEIR BEST TO SET UP THESE SHELTERS, TURNING SCHOOLS INTO DISPLACEMENT CENTERS, BUT THEY REALLY CAN'T KEEP UP WITH THE NUMBERS, ESPECIALLY AS YOU'RE SEEING MOTHER AND MORE OF THESE EVACUATION ORDERS.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS WE'RE GETTING TODAY FROM UNHCR.

160,000 SYRIANS AND LEBANESE CITIZENS CROSSED THE BORDER INTO SYRIA BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO.

>> JOMANA KARADSHEH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BRINGING US UP TO DATE ON THAT FRONT IN THIS WAR.

>>> NOW IT IS HARD TO REMEMBER THE WORLD AS IT WAS A YEAR AGO JUST BEFORE OCTOBER 7th AND THIS CURRENT SURGE OF BLOODSHED AND WAR.

IT'S BEEN, AS WE SAY, ALMOST A YEAR SINCE HAMAS' BRUTAL ATTACK ON ISRAEL THAT KILLED AROUND 1200 PEOPLE AND SAW HUNDREDS MORE TAKEN HOSTAGE.

AND ON THE PROGRAM TO TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF THE REGION AND ISRAEL TODAY IS ILANA DAYAN.

SHE IS ONE OF ISRAEL'S MOST RESPECTED JOURNALISTS, AND WE SPOKE ABOUT WHAT HER COUNTRY HAS BEEN THROUGH AND WHAT THE FUTURE MIGHT HOLD.

ILANA DAYAN, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

>> I WANT TO GET TO YOUR OBSERVATIONS ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU'VE COVERED AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE EXPERIENCED IN THE PAST YEAR.

BUT FIRST, WHAT IS THE FEELING AMONGST ISRAELIS RIGHT NOW AS THIS WAR EXTENDS IN LEBANON AND YOU HAVE ISRAELI SOLDIERS KILLED, BUT ALSO IS EVERYBODY WAITING FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF THE IRAN-ISRAEL WAR?

>> YES, THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE ON THE VERGE OF A REGIONAL WAR.

WE ARE IN A REGIONAL WAR WITH ISRAEL AND IRAN CONFRONTING EACH OTHER AFTER IRAN HAS LAUNCHED 180 BALLISTIC MISSILES ON ISRAEL LAST TUESDAY.

IT'S OBVIOUS THAT IRAN IS ENTERTAINING THE POSSIBILITY THAT ISRAEL WILL STRIKE ITS NUCLEAR SITES.

ISRAEL, ON THE OTHER HAND, KNOWS THAT IT CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT AMERICAN BACKING.

THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, THE LAST THING THEY WANT NOW IS AN ALL-OUT WAR HERE FOR WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTIONS THERE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT WHICH NOBODY WANTS TO HAPPEN MIGHT STILL HAPPEN.

THAT'S THE QUESTION NOW FACING ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND ISRAELI PUBLIC.

WILL ISRAEL, FOR A CHANGE, REALIZE THE LIMITS OF POWER, SEEK FOR A POINT OF EXIT AND UNDERSTAND THAT EVENTUALLY THERE WILL HAVE TO BE A DIPLOMATIC ARRANGEMENT FOLLOWING THE MILITARY ACT.

SO IF YOU'RE ASKING WHAT ISRAELIS IS WAITING FOR?

WE ARE WAITING TO SEE WHAT ISRAEL WILL DO, BUT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT WE'RE ON THE VERGE OF A WAR IN WHICH THE STAKES COULD HAVE BEEN HIGHER.

>> THE QUESTION IS, DOES ISRAEL WANT IT?

BECAUSE CLEARLY, YOU JUST SAID THE MILITARY IS BACK.

THE INTELLIGENCE IS BACK.

ALL THOSE THINGS THAT WERE ESSENTIALLY DEMOLISHED, THE IDEA OF ISRAEL'S PROWESS IN THOSE TWO KEY AREAS ON OCTOBER 7th.

WHAT DOES ISRAEL WANT?

I MEAN, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS RIDING HIGH.

AND THE ROCK BOTTOM POLL NUMBERS HE HAD AFTER OCTOBER 7th ARE INCREASING, AND HIS MAJORITY IN THE KNESSET IS INCREASING.

>> WHAT DOES ISRAEL WANT?

IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK, OF COURSE.

YES, YOU'RE RIGHT.

NETANYAHU IS RIDING HIGH IN THE POLLS.

HE HAD A GREAT COUPLE OF WEEKS, NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE MILITARY ACHIEVEMENTS, PHENOMENAL SUCCESSES, BUT ALSO BECAUSE HE IS POLITICALLY SAVVY LIKE NO OTHER POLITICIAN I KNOW.

HE WAS ABLE TO NORMALIZE AND CONSOLIDATE HIS COALITION.

JUST LAST WEEK HE WAS ABLE TO HAVE HIS FIERCEST RIVAL FROM THE LEFT LIKUD A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO TO JOIN THE COALITION, GET A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND GIVE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU COALITION A LIFELINE OF TWO MORE YEARS.

BUT IF YOU ASK ISRAELIS, MOST ISRAELIS THINK THAT WE HAVE TO GO TO THE BALLOTS.

MOST ISRAELIS THINK WE HAVE TO GO FOR A HOSTAGE DEAL.

MOST ISRAELIS WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED FOR THIS COALITION.

THE THING IS THEY DON'T GET TO DECIDE.

THE MAJORITY IN THE KNESSET GETS TO DECIDE.

BUT WHAT IT MEANS IS THE RIFT WITHIN ISRAELI SOCIETY IS EVER DEEPER.

AND IF YOU WANT A PROOF FOR THAT, IN A COUPLE OF DAYS, WE WILL MARK THE FIRST YEAR ANNIVERSARY FOR THE CATASTROPHE, THE ATTACK OF OCTOBER 7th.

WE WILL HAVE TWO CEREMONIES.

ONE IS A GOVERNMENT-RUN OFFICIAL CEREMONY WHICH WAS PRERECORDED WITHOUT ANY AUDIENCE.

THE OTHER WILL BE IN THE SAME EVENING, THE PEOPLE'S CEREMONY, PRODUCED BY THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS OF OCTOBER 7th.

THE BIGGEST PERFORMERS IN ISRAEL WILL BE THERE.

THOUSANDS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELIS WILL COME TO THE CENTRAL PARK OF TEL AVIV.

AND THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF THE ISRAELI CONDITION THESE DAYS.

MANY ISRAELIS WANT THIS HORROR TO BE OVER.

MANY ISRAELIS DON'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT.

AND STILL MANY ISRAELIS KNOW THAT THE WARS THAT WE ARE FIGHTING THESE DAYS ARE AS JUST AS A WAR CAN BE.

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT.

IT'S COMPLICATED.

>> IT'S VERY DEFINITELY COMPLICATED.

AND I WANT TO START, I GUESS, BY PLAYING A PIECE OF VIDEO THAT YOU AIRED ON YOUR PROGRAM.

AND IT HAD NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE, AND IT IS ON THAT DAY, OCTOBER 7th.

AND IT ACTUALLY GOES TO THE HEART OF PART OF THE CRISIS, WHICH IS THE HOSTAGES.

>> HONESTLY, IT'S SUCH A HUMAN ACT OF DEFIANCE WHEN YOU CAN DO NOTHING ELSE.

IT IS ACTUALLY REMARKABLE, THAT.

AND IT STRIKES ME THAT THIS HAS BEEN THE DEMAND OF THE ISRAELI PEOPLE SINCE OCTOBER 7th, ABOVE ALL, TO GET PEOPLE BACK, TO GET THEIR PEOPLE BACK.

AND IT'S FALLEN OUT OF THE HEADLINES NOW.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT HOSTAGES.

CERTAINLY THE GOVERNMENT AND OTHERS.

AND I WONDER WHERE ARE PEOPLE ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW?

DO THEY JUST LOOK AT THE MILITARY SUCCESSES OF THE LAST TWO WEEKS?

OR IS THERE STILL THIS GAPING HOLE, THIS WOUND?

>> YOU KNOW, THE HOSTAGES' FAMILIES SPENT A HOLIDAY DINNER YESTERDAY NIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE, DEMANDING THAT THE HOSTAGES COME BACK.

AND I GOT TO TELL YOU, OF ALL THE REPORTING I DID ABOUT THIS WAR, THE ONE THING THAT STUCK WITH ME IS AN OFFICIAL WHOSE PART OF THE NEGOTIATING TEAM SITTING IN FRONT OF ME LAST SPRING.

HE WAS WILLING TO GO ON RECORD.

HE LET ME RECORD HIM.

AND HE SAID WHEN I UNDERSTOOD THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS NOT DOING WHAT IT CAN DO TO BRING ABOUT A DEAL, I WAS DEVASTATED, DEVASTATED.

HE'S A SENIOR AND VETERAN OFFICER.

AND HE TOLD ME I KNOW OF HOSTAGES WHO DIED MENTALLY BEFORE THEY DIED PHYSICALLY.

CARMEL GHAT, THE DAUGHTER OF KINERET, THAT YOU JUST SAW SURVIVED 11 MONTHS IN CAPTIVITY.

JUST RECENTLY, A MONTH AND A HALF AGO SHE WAS FOUND DEAD ALONG WITH FIVE OTHER HOSTAGES IN A TUNNEL IN RAFAH.

SO MANY ISRAELIS -- I'LL SPEAK FOR MYSELF NOW.

I THINK THIS IS ONE STAIN THAT WILL NEVER BLEACH.

IF OUR GOVERNMENT LETS THESE HOSTAGES STAY THERE AND DIE THERE, AND, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THEY ARE BEING TORTURED.

WE KNOW THEY ARE STARVING.

WE KNOW AT LEAST HALF OF THESE 101 HOSTAGES ARE STILL ALIVE.

AND WE KNOW THAT TO PUT IT DELICATELY, THERE WERE CHANCES TO STRIKE A DEAL.

DID NETANYAHU MISLEAD EVERYBODY?

GIVING THE IMPRESSION THAT HE'S NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH?

DID HE CHANGE THE MANDATE OF THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THE NEGOTIATION TIME AND AGAIN?

DID HE SPIN THE PHILADELPHIA ROUTE SUBJECT WHEN THE BRASS WAS SAYING THAT IT'S OKAY TO PULL OUT FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING A DEAL?

AND NOW AS YOU SAID, THE FOCUS HAS SHIFTED TO THE NORTH.

WHEN WILL WE TALK ABOUT THE HOSTAGES AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO OUR SOCIETY IF THEY DON'T COME BACK?

THERE IS A CONTRACT BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND THEIR GOVERNMENT THAT SOMEBODY WILL BE THERE TO SAVE US.

IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO US, THAT'S THE DEFINING ETHOS OF THE ISRAELI SOCIETY.

AND I KNOW.

I KNOW FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY SOUL THAT WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HEAL IF THESE HOSTAGES DON'T COME BACK.

>> I MEAN, HONESTLY FOR ME, ILANA, THE QUESTION IS WHY, GIVEN THE CONTRACT, AS YOU CALL IT, THAT WE ALL KNOW ABOUT.

WE'VE SEEN IT IN ACTION IN THE PAST OVER OTHER HOSTAGES.

AND WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THE ROSH HASHANAH DINNER BEFORE LICHT ACTIVISTS THREW EGGS CURSED MEMBERS OF HORJ HOSTAGE FAMILIES.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY?

IS IT BECAUSE DESTROYING HAMAS IS SO -- WHATEVER THE REASON, THAT THERE IS A TRADE-OFF THAT MAKES IT WORTH DISMISSING THESE PEOPLE WHO, AS YOU SAY, ISRAEL HOLDS SO SACRED IN THE PAST.

>> NO, I DON'T HAVE A BETTER ANSWER THAN YOU DO.

AND I KNOW THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS IN EVERY POLL SAY THAT THE DEAL IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

THE CHIEF OF STAFF SAID IT YESTERDAY NIGHT IN A DINNER, A HOLIDAY DINNER INSIDE GAZA WITH THE TROOPS.

AND MANY ISRAELIS KNOW THAT EVEN ISRAELIS WHO VOTED FOR THIS COALITION -- NOW, YES, LEADERSHIP HAS MANAGED TO ISSUE.

AND I KNOW THAT FOR MANY ISRAELIS, THIS IS STILL NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE.

STILL, TRUTH HAS TO BE TOLD.

SINWAR DOESN'T REALLY WANT A DEAL AS MUCH AS MANY ISRAELIS WANT.

HE DID REFUSE TOO MANY OF THE OUTLINES THAT WERE ON THE TABLE.

HE IS NOW NOT COMMUNICATING.

HE IS UNPLUGGED SOMEHOW AND NOT COMMUNICATING.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE CAN JUST HOPE FOR THE BETTER.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I KNOW AND I INTERVIEWED THE PEOPLE WHO CAME BACK.

AND WE KNOW ABOUT THIS FATHER WHO TOLD HIS DAUGHTER BEFORE SHE WAS RELEASED AND HE STAYED THERE, JUST MAKE SURE THEY DON'T FORGET ME.

I JUST INTERVIEWED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AN OLD LADY WHO CAME BACK.

AND SHE TOLD ME SHE SPOKE TO THIS PERSON BEFORE SHE WAS RELEASED.

HE WAS IN A CAGE IN A TUNNEL.

HE BEGGED HER THAT THEY TAKE CARE OF HIM.

AND SO WE KNOW ENOUGH FOR US, FOR ISRAEL, FOR ISRAELI LEADERSHIP TO MAKE THAT A TOP PRIORITY.

HAMAS CAN BE DEALT WITH LATER.

>> I WANT TO REMIND YOU OF SOMETHING YOU SAID TO ME ON MY PROGRAM WHEN I FIRST SPOKE TO YOU IN THE COUPLE OF WEEKS AFTER OCTOBER 7th ABOUT THE HAMAS ATTACKS.

JUST LISTEN.

>> I THOUGHT THAT I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT OUR ENEMIES.

NONE OF US, CHRISTIANE, NONE OF US EVEN IMAGINED THIS IS THE KIND OF ENEMY THAT WE ARE CONFRONTING.

THIS IS PART OF TRYING TO RECKON WHAT HAPPENED TO US OCTOBER 7th.

SO MUCH WAS BROKEN.

THE EFFECT THAT WE'LL ALWAYS FEEL PROTECTED WAS BROKEN.

THE SENSE THAT WE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT OUR ENEMIES IS BROKEN.

THE SENSE OF SECURITY, NATIONAL SECURITY AND PERSONAL SECURITY WAS BROKEN.

THE SENSE THAT OUR MILITARY KNOWS EVERYTHING, THEY CANNOT BE BLINDED.

>> WE'VE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF IT, BUT THE IDEA THAT YOU NEVER IMAGINED YOUR ENEMY COULD DO THAT.

AND OBVIOUSLY, IN THE YEAR SINCE, YOU HAVE SEEN THE REVENGE.

41 PLUS THOUSAND PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED INCLUDING SOME 16,000 CHILDREN.

AND I WONDER WHETHER THAT -- THAT VISUAL, THAT HUMAN TOLL ON THE OTHER SIDE IS GETTING THROUGH TO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE AND WHAT YOU ALL THINK ABOUT IT NOW A YEAR AFTER.

>> I REMEMBER YOU ASKED ME ABOUT THAT TOO, AND THAT WAS IMMEDIATELY AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

AND I TOLD YOU THAT WE ARE UNCOVERING THE MONSTROUS FACE OF OUR ENEMY, THE ENEMY THAT HIDES AMMUNITION IN SCHOOLS AND CLINICS AND MOSQUES.

AND I KNOW THAT AFTER OCTOBER 7th CAME OCTOBER 8th, AND OCTOBER 28th.

AND THIS WAR HAS TAKEN A TERRIBLE TOLL ON CIVILIANS AND ALSO INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

AND I'VE BEEN TO RAFAH A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, AND I'VE SEEN THE DESTRUCTION.

AND I KNOW THAT WE REPORTERS, ISRAELI MEDIA ARE NOT COVERING IT ENOUGH.

ON THE OTHER HAND, CHRISTIANE, I HAVE TO TELL YOU, IT'S TRICKY, BECAUSE I FIGURE THAT EVERY TIME I COVER OCTOBER 7th OR RATHER EVERY TIME I COVER OCTOBER 8th, THE NOTION OF THE TRAGEDY IN GAZA THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, I CARRY OCTOBER 7th WITH ME.

I CARRY EVERYTHING I SAW, THE BODIES I SAW, THE ATROCITIES I SAW, THE PEOPLE I KNOW, THE SECOND COUSIN OF MINE WHO WAS KIDNAPPED AT GUNPOINT, OUR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT WHOSE FAMILY, TWO PARENTS AND TWO KIDS WERE EXECUTED AT GUNPOINT, THE GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS MURDERED WITH HER AUTISTIC GRANDCHILD.

SO I CARRY THE SCARS BECAUSE IT'S SO PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED.

IT IS SOMETHING WHICH WE ALL EXPERIENCE SO PERSONALLY THAT I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT THAT THE SENSE OF DETACHMENT YOU HAVE TO HAVE AS A REPORTER IS SOMETHING VERY DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT.

AND THE ONE THING THAT COMES TO MIND, TO MY MIND IS THE TESTIMONY THAT I READ OF DR. DAVID HASSAN.

HE IS A NEUROSURGEON FROM DUKE UNIVERSITY IN THE U.S.

HE IS OF PALESTINIAN ORIGIN.

HE TRAVELLED TO GAZA TO RAFAH AND KHAN YUNIS TWICE.

HE TREATED WOUNDED CHILDREN WHOSE FAMILY WAS ALL KILLED.

HE SAW HARDSHIP AND PAIN.

HE TOLD THE INTERVIEWER HE WAS LOOKING FOR ISRAELI HOSTAGES TO TREAT THEM AS WELL.

HE WAS WALKING THE CORRIDORS OF THE HOSPITAL LOOKING FOR ISRAELI HOSTAGES.

AND I THINK, CHRISTIANE, HE COULDN'T FIND THEM AND HAMAS DIDN'T LET HIM MEET THEM.

AND FOR ME, THAT'S KIND OF AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE ISRAELIS HAVE TO SEEK IN OURSELVES.

WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR OUR LIVES, BUT WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR OUR SOUL, AND WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR OUR VALUES.

AND OUR VALUES ARE VALUES OF COMPASSION AND CARE AS WELL.

AND YES, I THINK OF THE TRAGEDY IN GAZA, AND I THINK WE DON'T COVER ENOUGH.

YOU'RE RIGHT IN THAT SENSE.

ONE THING THAT I KEEP THINKING ABOUT, WE MIGHT BE ACHIEVING PHENOMENAL MILITARY SUCCESSES THESE DAYS, AND IT SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW, THAT THE REALITY IS CHANGING AND THAT IRAN IS LOSING BOTH ITS PROXIES IN LEBANON AND IN GAZA.

BUT THE FACT THAT WE CAN MAKE THEM LOSE DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE ARE WINNING, BECAUSE THEY CAN INFLICT SO MUCH INJURY AND PAIN AND DAMAGE.

THERE WAS SEVEN ISRAELIS KILLED IN A HORRIBLE TERROR ATTACK IN JAFFA THE OTHER DAY.

AND SOLDIERS ARE BEING KILLED IN LEBANON.

SO I FIGURE THAT WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO BOTH EXERCISE MILITARY MIGHT AND RECOGNIZE THE LIMITS OF MILITARY MIGHT AND TRY TO FIND THE BRIDGE TO THE FUTURE, TO DOUBT OUR PAST, TO RECKON WITH OUR DEMONS, AND TO TRY TO SEE A WAY TO BUILD ANOTHER KIND OF REALITY IN THIS TOUGH NEIGHBORHOOD OF OURS.

IT'S COMPLICATED, AS WE SAID, BUT THE SHEER THOUGHT OF THAT POSSIBILITY HELPS ME BREATHE WITH BOTH LUNGS SOMETIMES.

NOT VERY OFTEN.

>> ILANA DAYAN, AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND SHE IS THAT RARE BREED OF PHENOMENAL JOURNALIST WITH PHENOMENAL HUMANITY AS WELL.

AS WE MENTIONED, THERE ARE CONCERNS THAT ISRAEL'S HOSTAGES ARE BEING FORGOTTEN AND PALESTINIAN SUFFERING IN GAZA IS BEING IGNORED.

BUT WHILE THE ATTENTION HAS SHIFTED TO LEBANON AND IRAN, THE WAR ON GAZA IS STILL VERY INTENSE, KILLING ALMOST 100 PEOPLE IN THE PAST 24 HOURS.

ADDING TO MORE THAN 40,000 WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN KILLED IN THE PAST YEAR, INCLUDING ABOUT 16,000 CHILDREN, ACCORDING TO THE AUTHORITIES IN GAZA.

TAREQ ABU AZZOUM, A CORRESPONDENT FOR AL JAZEERA ENGLISH, JOINED ME FROM DEIR AL BALAH IN CENTRAL GAZA FOR A VIEW OF THE PAST YEAR FROM THERE.

MANY OF HIS COLLEAGUES AT THE NETWORK HAVE BEEN KILLED WHILE TRYING TO COVER THIS WAR.

TAREQ ABU AZZOUM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AND I JUST WANT TO NOTE FOR OUR VIEWERS THAT WE'VE JUST GONE FROM A PRETTY FIRST WORLD CAMERA OPERATION IN ISRAEL TO A WAR-TIME UNDER BOMBARDMENT SKYPE PRETTY BAD CONNECTION.

AND THAT'S JUST THE REALITY OF WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

SO CAN I ASK YOU TO REFLECT ON WHERE WERE YOU ON OCTOBER 7th AND OCTOBER 8th WHEN THE WAR THEN CAME TO YOU?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, THANKS, FIRST, FOR HAVING ME.

WHEN OCTOBER 7th REALLY ATTACKED WE WERE IN OUR HOMES IN A VERY CLOSE BORDER TOWN.

WE WERE LIVING PEACEFULLY AND SLEEPING, AND WE WOKE UP ON THE SOUND OF BOMBARDMENT AND ATTACKS.

IT WAS A VERY TOUGH DAY FOR EVERYONE IN PALESTINE, SIMPLY BECAUSE THAT DAY HAS TURNED AND CHANGED THE LIVES OF MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS NOW UPSIDE DOWN.

CLEARLY WE WERE FORCED TO LEAVE OUR HOMES AND HOUSES UNDER REALLY HEAVY ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT.

WE WERE FORCED TO MOVE FROM ONE NEIGHBORHOOD TO ANOTHER LOOKING FOR SOME SORT OF SAFETY.

WE WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE NORTH OF THE STRIP AFTER FOLLOWING THE ISRAELI MILITARY ORDERS TO NO LONGER REMAIN IN THE NORTH OF GAZA, BECAUSE IT WILL BE AN ACTIVE MILITARY WAR ZONE.

AND FOR ME ALONGSIDE MY FAMILY MEMBERS, WE HAVE BEEN DISPLACED OVER FIVE TIMES SINCE THE WAR BEGAN AND THE SITUATION WAS CATASTROPHICALLY VERY DIRE, BECAUSE YOU KNOW WE DID NOT MANAGE TO TAKE ANY SORT OF OUR ITEMS AND ENDED UP IN RAFAH.

AND LATER WITH THE ERUPTION OF THE GROUND INVASION IN RAFAH, WE HAVE BEEN FORCED AGAIN TO BE DISPLACED, THIS TIME TO DEIR AL BALAH IN THE CENTRAL AREAS.

>> AND TAREQ, YOU'RE A JOURNALIST.

DID YOU IMMEDIATELY LEAP INTO ACTION TO TRY TO COVER WHAT WAS GOING ON?

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW THAT NOW AT LEAST 116 JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

SOME OF THEM ARE YOUR AL JAZEERA COLLEAGUES.

TELL ME WHAT IT'S BEEN LIKE AS A JOURNALIST TO LIVE THROUGH THIS, BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GET OUT AND FACE THE CRISIS RATHER THAN TRYING TO SEEK SHELTER.

>> WELL, FIRSTLY, MY FIRST AND TOP PRIORITY WAS HOW I CAN MOVELY MICHIGAN FAMILY TO A PLACE THAT CAN HAVE SOME SENSE OF PARTIAL SAFETY.

AND THEN I JUST MANAGED TO BE ABSOLUTELY JOINING THE FIELD HERE IN GAZA STRIP TO PHOTO OP EVERY LATEST DEVELOPMENT ON THE GROUND AND HOW THE COURSE OF ACTIONS ARE ONGOING IN GAZA.

WE HAVE BEEN FILMING AND DOCUMENTING ALL THE SECURITY AND HUMANITARIAN DEVELOPMENTS.

OF COURSE MULTIPLE AREAS IN THE STRIP IN THE NORTH AND THE CENTRAL AREAS AND IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF GAZA.

IT HAS BEEN A VERY TOUGH JOB SINCE DAY ONE BECAUSE YOU ARE OPERATING IN A VERY ACTIVE MILITARY ZONE THAT HAD BEEN DAY BY DAY GETTING MUCH MORE WORSE WITH VERY SYSTEMATIC AND DELIBERATE DESTRUCTION OF RESIDENTIAL HOMES, KEY INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND THE MOUNTING NUMBERS OF ATTACKS ON JOURNALISTS WHO AT LEAST MUST HAVE SOME SORT OF SPECIAL PROTECTIONS ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN REGULATIONS.

BUT IN GAZA, EVERY DAY FOR PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS IS A QUESTION OF LIFE OR DEATH.

LIKE YOU LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

YOU'RE COMPLETELY UNSURE IF YOU'RE GOING RETURN BACK TO YOUR FAMILY OR NOT.

AND THIS IS A PROPER REFLECTION ABOUT THE SYSTEMATIC TARGETING OF PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN 100 AND 60 PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS WERE KILLED SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

SOME OF THEM WERE KILLED ALONGSIDE WITH FAMILY MEMBERS, AND OTHERS AS THEY WERE PRACTICING THEIR PROFESSIONS ON THE GROUND.

EVEN SOMETIMES WHEN WE ARE MOVING IN AREAS THAT COULD BE SO MUCH AT TERMS OF THE BOMBARDMENT, PEOPLE SOMETIMES ARE SO MUCH AFRAID OF OUR EXISTENCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE GROWING FEELING THAT THE JOURNALISTS ARE COMPLETELY A LEGAL TARGET FOR THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

OF COURSE THEY HAVE BEEN TARGETED.

PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS WHO WERE TRYING TO COVER THE LATEST ISRAELI CRIMES IN GAZA.

WE LOST RECENTLY OUR COLLEAGUES IN THE NORTH OF THE GAZA STRIP IN A VERY DELIBERATE ATTACK AS THEY WERE HEADING TO FILM A REPORT IN A SHODDY REFUGEE CAMP.

THIS IS VERY DEVASTATING IN FACT.

IT IS A MOMENT THAT MAKES EVERYONE LOOK AND THINK TWICE ABOUT HIS JOB.

THE RESILIENCE AND THE DETERMINATION OF PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS IS COMPLETELY UNWAVERING.

THEY ARE WORKING ON THE GROUND, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE ISRAELI BAN OF THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS TO ACCESS THE GAZA STRIP, EXCEPT IN SOME CERTAIN CASES FOR SOME IMMEDIATE CHANNELS WHO MANAGE TO GET A PARTIAL ACCESS TO PARTICULAR PARTS IN GAZA, INCLUDING RAFAH AND IN THE NORTH.

AND THEY HAVE SOME SORT OF CONTROLLED TRIPS BY THE MILITARY, EVEN THEIR CONTENT HAS BEEN VERIFIED BY THE ARMY BEFORE.

IT COULD BE RELEASED FOR THEIR VIEWERS.

>> YOU KNOW, TAREQ WE ALL OWE YOU A HUGE DEBT OF GRATITUDE, BECAUSE AS YOU CORRECTLY SAY, YOU ARE THE WORLD'S EYES AND EARS ON THE GROUND BECAUSE INTERNATIONALS ARE NOT ALLOWED IN.

WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU WANT TO HAVE MORE OF US IN?

OR DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE FULLY ABLE TO TELL THE STORY?

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE OR IMPACT IF INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS WERE ALLOWED IN?

>> WELL, THE PRESENCE OF INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT IN ORDER TO ENABLE THE VIEWERS AROUND THE GLOBE TO HAVE MORE ACCESS AND REACH WHAT HAPPENED IN GAZA.

PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS IN FACT SINCE DAY ONE OF THE FIGHT HAVING BEEN DOING THEIR BEST BY ALL SORTS OF OF THEIR EVEN CAPABILITIES ON THE GROUND TO KEEP REPORTING, DESPITE ALL THEIR HUMANITARIAN AND TECHNICAL CHALLENGES THAT THEY HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH AND PRESENTED COMMUNICATION CHALLENGES, LACK OF SAFETY, EVEN OF HUMANITARIAN RESOURCES.

INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS HAVE ONLY BEEN GIVEN ACCESS TO AREAS WHERE THE ARMY EXISTS.

BUT THEY DID NOT REALLY GET CLOSE UP TO PALESTINIANS AND HOSPITALS, PALESTINIANS IN EVACUATION CENTERS, SLEEPING IN OPEN AREAS IN THE STREETS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR HOMES EVEN ARE JOBLESS RIGHT NOW.

THEY CAN HAVE MUCH GREATER UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE REALITY OF THIS ONGOING CONFLICT AND HOW PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WIDELY IMPACTED FROM THIS ONGOING WAR.

SO WE BELIEVE THAT THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS HAVE A VERY PROFOUND ROLE IN RAISING THE HEIR AWARENESS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

BUT PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS, THEY HAVE DONE THEIR JOB PERFECTLY AND BRAVELY, AND THEY ARE STILL ONGOING WITH THEIR REPORTING AND COVERAGE, DESPITE ALL THE SECURITY AND HUMANITARIAN OBSTACLES AND CHALLENGES ENCOUNTERING THEM IN FACT, CHRISTIANE.

>> WELL, WE STILL TRY TO LOBBY THE GOVERNMENT TO LET US IN.

BUT CAN I JUST ASK YOU A DIFFERENT QUESTION ON WHETHER YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE THE PULSE OF PEOPLE THERE ON NOT JUST THE ISRAELI OFFENSIVE, BUT ON HAMAS AS WELL.

LET ME JUST READ A LITTLE BIT.

I MEAN ABED, WHO YOU PROBABLY HEARD OF WAS A LONG-TERM CRITIC OF HAMAS.

HE WAS BEATEN UP BY MASKED MEN IN JULY.

PICTURES OF HIM IN HOSPITAL HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC.

AND PUBLIC DISSENT APPEARS TO BE GROWING DUE TO THE HUMAN TOLL OF THIS WAR, GROWING AGAINST HAMAS.

HOW PRESENT IS HAMAS IN GAZA RIGHT NOW?

DO YOU SEE THEM?

DO YOU FEEL THAT THEY'RE -- WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT FIGHTERS, IS ANYBODY SORT OF DISTRIBUTING AID OR KEEPING WHATEVER, DOING ANY >> WELL, IN ORDER TO MAKE IT MUCH MORE CLEAR FOR EVERYONE THAT WHOP IS DISTRIBUTING AID IN GAZA ARE THE NGOs ALONGSIDE WITH THE UNITED NATIONS RELIEF AND WORK AGENCY FOR PALESTINIAN REFUGEES.

WE CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THAT AID WERE FLOWING FROM THE RAFAH CROSSING AND THE EGYPTIANS.

BUT WITH THE BEGINNING OF THE GROUND INCURSION TO RAFAH, IT HAS BEEN A VERY BIG HUMANITARIAN FLAW WITH OPERATIONS BEING CONDUCTED BY THE HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES.

THERE HAS BEEN ISSUED IN REPORTS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE DECREASE IN THE NUMBERS OF HUMANITARIAN CONVOY TO MULTIPLE AREAS IN THE STRIP, ESPECIALLY IN NORTH OF GAZA WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUFFERING FROM HIGH RATES OF MALNUTRITION AND ALSO AROUND THE CORNER DUE LACK OF FUEL AND ESSENTIAL FOOD ITEMS TO THAT VERY MARGINALIZED PART OF GAZA.

AND IN TERMS OF THE MILITARY PERSONS FOR HAMAS, WE CANNOT REALLY HAVE A VERY CLOSE LOOK ON THE MILITARY ACTIVITIES BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ENGAGED WITH THE ISRAELI FORCES AND COMBAT IN A VERY CLOSE CONTACT FIGHTING, AND WE CANNOT HAVE A PROPER ACCESS TO THESE PLACES.

AND THE SAME TIME, THE ISRAELI MILITARY MANAGED TO DESTROY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITY, AND THEY ARE NO LONGER EXIST AS A MILITARY FORMAT.

SO GENERALLY, WHAT WE CAN SEE ON THE GROUND IS A VERY CLEAR ESCALATION WHERE THE ARMY HAS THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN MASSIVELY HIT IN THEIR HOMES.

THE HOUSES HAVE BEEN HIT WHERE IT COMPLETELY PACKED WITH CIVILIANS.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, THERE HAS BEEN A VERY MASSIVE INCREASE UPON ATTACKS ESPECIALLY ON EVACUATION CENTERS THAT ARE RUN BY THE UNITED NATIONS.

FAMILIES IN FACT HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THE ARMY TO MOVE TO THESE AREAS AFTER DESTRUCTION OF THEIR HOMES.

AND AFTER FOLLOWING THESE ORDERS, THEY HAVE BEEN HIT BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

SO THERE HAS BEEN A VERY GROWING SENSE AMONG PALESTINIANS THAT GAZA IS NO LONGER A SAFE PLACE.

AND SPECIFICALLY THAT IS THE REALITY.

PALESTINIANS, IN FACT, HAVE BEEN STUCK IN THE MIDDLE AS CONFLICT BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL IS STILL RAGING DAY BY DAY.

BUT ISRAEL HAS PREVIOUSLY MANAGED TO ENTIRELY DISMANTLE LOTS OF THEIR BRIGADES.

BUT WE CAN SEE THAT THE FIGHTING IS STILL ONGOING AND RAGING IN AREAS THAT HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN ANNOUNCED TO BE MILITARILY DISMANTLED AND CLEAR.

THIS IS A VERY HUGE CON FLUCTUATION OF THE MILITARY'S STATEMENTS.

AND PALESTINIANS NOW THEIR MAIN CONCENTRATION IS HOW THEY CAN SURVIVE.

THEY'RE MOVING TO LOTS OF AREAS AND NOW THEY ARE TRAPPED IN A VERY TINY STRIP OF LAND CALLED AMAWASI, JUST A FEW KILOMETERS AWAY FROM WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW.

AND DESPITE THIS HORRIFIC HUMANITARIAN CONDITIONS THAT THEY ARE EXPERIENCING IN AL MAWASI, THEY HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THAT AREA WITHOUT ANY SORT OF WARNING.

WELL CAN REMEMBER THE LATER ATTACK THERE THAT KILLED AT LEAST 100 PALESTINIANS.

YESTERDAY, GAZA'S HEALTH MINISTRY ANNOUNCED THAT AT LEAST 99 PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED IN ISRAELI ATTACKS.

OF COURSE AND KHAN YOUNIS.

ONE OF THE ORPHAN INSTITUTIONS IN GAZA HAVE BEEN BOMBED.

WE ARE REALLY EXPERIENCING A VERY TURBULENT REALITY THAT COULD NOT BE REALLY SAFE.

IT HAS BEEN A YEAR OF MASSIVE CONFRONTATIONS, SYSTEMATIC DESTRUCTION OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ALONGSIDE WITH ALL AREAS THAT PALESTINIANS FIND IT AS A REFUGEE.

BY THE WAY, IF INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS CAN GET CLOSER TO WHERE PEOPLE CAN LIVE, THEY WILL DISCOVER MORE HORRIFIC AND VERY BLISTERING REALITY ABOUT HOW THE PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING TO AFFORD THEMSELVES WITH WATER, WITH FOOD.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PURE ACCESS TO WATER.

YOU KNOW THE VAST MAJORITY OF WATER RESOURCES IN GAZA HAVE BEEN CONTAMINATED DUE TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CIVIL INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE ARE TALKING TO HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS, AND THEY HAVE EXPRESSED THE INABILITY TO FREELY WORK ON THE GROUND BECAUSE OF THE ISRAELI RESTRICTIONS AND VERY UNTENABLE SECURITY CONDITION ON THE GROUND.

>> TAREQ ABU AZZOUM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> AL JAZEERA HAS COME UNDER FURTHER INTENSE CRIM AND LEGAL PRESSURE FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, WHICH HAS NOW BANNED THE NETWORK FROM OPERATING INSIDE ISRAEL, AND ITS OFFICES IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK HAVE BEEN BROKEN INTO AND WELDED SHUT BY ISRAELI TROOPS.

>>> NOW, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THAT HE MUST CONFRONT THE TRUTH, NO MATTER HOW DIFFERENT.

THE AWARD WINNING JOURNALIST TA-NEHISI COATES IS DOING EXACTLY THAT IN HIS NEW BOOK "THE MESSAGE" IN WHICH HE JOURNEYS TO SENEGAL, ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, AND HE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT HE FOUND.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

TA-NEHISI COATES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, MICHEL.

>> I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW YOUR PREVIOUS WORK, ESPECIALLY "BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME."

BUT IN THIS NEW BOOK, YOU GO TO THREE DIFFERENT PLACES.

YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR TRIPS TO THREE DIFFERENT PLACE, TO SENEGAL, TO SOUTH CAROLINA, AND TO ISRAEL AND TO THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.

YOU'VE ALREADY GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION FOR THIS BOOK.

SOME OF IT QUITE HEATED, IT HAS TO BE SAID.

BUT I WANT TO START WITH YOU START IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS SENEGAL.

I MEAN, THIS YOUR FIRST TRIP THERE.

YOU DESCRIBE THESE FEELINGS OF REAL DISQUIET WHILE YOU WERE THERE, SORT OF FEAR, JUST SADNESS, AND A KIND OF HEAVINESS.

CAN YOU JUST DESCRIBE WHY, OR WHAT IT IS THAT YOU WERE FEELING?

AND WHY YOU THINK YOU WERE FEELING THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M OF THE GENERATION OF CHILDREN BORN IN I GUESS THE '70s, OR MAYBE IT STARTED IN THE LATE '60s WHERE IT BECAME POPULAR TO GIVE YOUR KIDS AFRICAN NAMES AND TO REALLY RAISE CHILDREN WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS AND DIFFERENT NOTIONS OF AFRICA AND DIFFERENT IDEAS OF AFRICA.

AND THAT EFFORT REALLY WAS TO OVERCOME A VERY RACIST TELLING AND STORIES OF WHAT AFRICA WAS AND THUS TO JUSTIFY THE TREATMENT OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.

AND THAT IN TURN WAS COUNTER WITH DIFFERENT FERGUSONS OF HISTORY.

SOME OF THEM THEMSELVES QUITE MYTHICAL.

BUT HERE I WAS CONFRONTED WITH THE REAL THING.

NO MORE STORIES.

NO MORE NARRATIVES.

THIS IS IT, BUDDY.

THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT IT IS, YOU KNOW.

AND I WAS GOING TO BE CRAFTING STORIES OF MY OWN, TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT THAT I ACTUALLY TOOK FOR GRANTED THAT THIS REALLY WAS A CLICHED AS IT WAS, THE MOTHERLAND.

THAT WAS REALLY WHERE I WAS GOING.

I JUST WAS TERRIBLY AFFECTED.

AND MAYBE I WAS NOT TOTALLY PREPARED TO BE AFFECTED.

>> CAN I THROW SOMETHING OUT.

WERE YOU AFRAID YOU WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED?

THE AGE I WENT.

I UNDERSTAND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID.

BUT ACTUALLY AS I'M REFLECTING ON YOUR QUESTION, MAYBE I WAS.

ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK ABOUT IS LURKING IN THE BACK OF MY MIND, WHAT IF ALL OF THOSE RACIST NARRATIVES WERE ACTUALLY TRUE, YOU KNOW.

THAT'S TERRIBLE TO ADMIT, YOU KNOW.

BUT CERTAINLY THAT WAS IN THE BACK OF MIND THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS HAUNTING ME.

I DIDN'T EXPECT TO BE WELCOMED WITH DRUMS AND, YOU KNOW, WELCOME HOME, BROTHER.

>> BROTHER, YES.

>> I DIDN'T EXPECT ANY OF THAT.

THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.

BUT LIKE I SAID, IT'S TERRIBLE TO ADMIT.

PERHAPS I FEARED THAT I WOULD NOT FIND A CITY IN DAKAR OF HUMAN BEINGS.

>> THAT IS A HARD THING TO ADMIT.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU FOUND THERE THAT IS IMPORTANT TO THE OVERALL NARRATIVE THAT YOU'RE SHARING IN THIS BOOK?

>> YOU KNOW, THE FIRST ESSAY, AND I GUESS WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE MINUTE, AND THE LAST IN CONVERSATION WITH EACH OTHER.

WHEN YOU'VE HAD A HORRIFIC, VIOLENT EVENT HAPPEN TO YOU SUCH THAT IT REALLY BREAKS LINEAGE AND BREAKS TIME, HOW DO YOU RECONSTRUCT YOURSELF?

HOW DO YOU RECONSTRUCT YOURSELF IN A WAY THAT IS TRUTHFUL, REFLECTS YOUR ETHICS, TELL THE STORIES THAT YOU REALLY FEEL LIKE EMBODY YOUR SENSE OF JUSTICE.

I THINK THERE IS GREAT TEMPTATION WHEN YOU SUFFER THROUGH AN EXPERIENCE LIKE WE HAVE AND THE HUMILIATION THAT COMES WITH IT.

TO GO COMPLETELY IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, YOU KNOW, AND MAYBE IGNORE SOME OF THE REALITY THAT ACTUALLY MAKES YOU A HUMAN BEING.

SENEGAL, DAKAR WAS REALLY MY OPPORTUNITY TO CONFRONT SOME OF THOSE STORIES AND SOME OF THOSE IDEAS THAT ACTUALLY I WAS RAISE ON MYSELF, THAT EMBODY MY VERY NAME, ACTUALLY.

>> IN STORY, I GUESS, AS YOU WOULD SAY, IN STORY, THEY WERE EMBODIED IN STORY, AND THAT STORY KIND OF INFILTRATED YOU IN WAYS THAT YOU PERHAPS WERE NOT REALLY AWARE OF.

SO THEN MAY OF 2023, YOU VISITED ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.

SO IN THE BOOK, YOU DRAW PARALLELS BETWEEN JIM CROW AMERICA AND THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF THESE TERRITORIES.

YOU CALLED IT SEPARATE UNEQUAL ALIVE AND WELL.

YOU SAY IT'S A PLACE WITH A GLARE OF RACISM BURNED MORE INTENSELY THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN YOUR LIFE THAN YOU HAD EVER SEEN.

>> YEAH.

>> SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY YOU SAY THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TWO SIDES.

WHILE THERE IS A PART OF ME THAT DOES NOT LIKE MIXING IT UP AND FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE, THERE IS ALSO A PART OF ME THAT SAYS THERE IS SOMETHING DISHONORABLE AND ACTUALLY UNLOVING ABOUT WITNESSING CERTAIN THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE IMPORTANT AND NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS I WENT TO THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM ON TWO DIFFERENT TIMES.

THE FIRST TIME I WENT IN THE WAY THAT TYPICALLY PALESTINIAN MUSLIMS GO.

AND WE WERE HELD FOR ABOUT 45 MINUTES FOR ARMED GUARDS BEFORE THEY GAVE US ENTRANCE.

THERE WAS NO VISA -- >> YOU WENT TO AL AQSA?

>> THE AL AQSA MOSQUE.

NO REASONING WAS GIVEN ON ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THEY JUST HELD US BECAUSE THEY COULD.

AND WHEN I CAME BACK, THE WAY AN AMERICAN TOURIST MIGHT COME OR A CHRISTIAN TEMPLE MIGHT COME, IT WAS SO EASY.

I JUST BREEZED THROUGH.

IT WAS THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD.

THIS CONTROL OF TIME AND SPACE EXTENDED OUT INTO THE WEST BANK WHERE THERE ARE ROADS FOR PALESTINIANS AND THERE ARE ROADS FOR ISRAELI SETTLERS, WHICH IMMEDIATELY SET OFF.

YOU GOT TWO DIFFERENT ROADS FOR TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES OF PEOPLE THAT IMMEDIATELY SETS OFF ALARM BELLS FOR ME.

YOU'RE SEEING IN THE TERRITORY, AND YOU CAN SEE ONE PLACE WHERE SETTLEMENTS ARE AND WHERE SETTLERS LIVE.

AND THEY'RE MARKED IN A CERTAIN WAY.

AND THEN YOU CAN SEE OTHER AREAS WHERE THE PALESTINIAN VILLAGES AND HAMLETS, AND WHERE THEY LIVE.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THESE ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE.

YOU GO TO THE OLD CITY OF HEBRON, AS I HAVE TALKED ABOUT.

AND THERE ARE STREETS WHERE I AM WALKED DOWN IF IT IS MADE CLEAR TO THE GUARDS THAT MY MOTHER WAS A CHRISTIAN, I AM A CHRISTIAN AND MY GRANDMOTHER IS A CHRISTIAN.

BUT MY PALESTINIAN GUIDES DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO.

THAT'S JUST IN BRIEF WHAT I SAW.

SO MUCH MORE.

BE UP THAT SETS OFF CERTAIN THINGS FOR ME.

AND THEN I CAME BACK AND HAD TO DO THE READING AND THE RESEARCH ON TOP OF THAT TO UNDERSTAND THE GOVERNANCE AND THE STRUCTURES THAT ARE BENEATH AND MAKE THAT POSSIBLE AND IN SOME WAYS MANDATE THAT.

AND I WAS LEFT WITH THE CONCLUSION AND THE FACT WHAT I WAS WITNESSING WAS SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL.

THAT IT WAS THE CLOSEST THAT I WOULD SEE IN MY TIME TO THE JIM CROW THAT MY PARENTS WERE BORN INTO.

>> SO IS THERE A POINT AT WHICH YOU SAID TO YOURSELF I CANNOT ONLY JUST SEE THIS, I HAVE TO WRITE ABOUT IT AND ACCEPT WHATEVER COMES WITH MY WRITING ABOUT IT IN THIS WAY?

WAS THERE A PIVOTAL MOMENT?

OR WAS THAT ALWAYS THE PLAN?

>> THAT WAS ALWAYS THE PLAN.

BUT I KNEW BY SAYING -- I KNEW THIS IS GOING TO BE HARD.

THIS IS GOING TO BE ROUGH.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT'S HARD?

WHAT IS HARD?

>> I DON'T LIKE HURTING PEOPLE'S FEELINGS, MAN.

I'M KIND OF LAUGHING, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE.

I DON'T ENJOY TELLING PEOPLE THINGS, TELLING PEOPLE UNPLEASANT THINGS.

AND TO BE REALLY I GUESS DIRECT WITH YOU, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO I HAVE HAD IN MY LIFE WHO I CARE ABOUT, SOME WHO HAVE BEEN COLLEAGUES OF MINE, I'VE SPENT VERY INTIMATE TIME AROUND WHOSE FEELINGS THIS WILL HURT.

VERY, VERY DIFFERENT VIEW OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL THAN I DO, HAVE TIES TO IT.

I BELIEVE WHAT I WITNESSED WAS AN IMMORALAL APARTHEID REGIME.

THOSE ARE MY CONCLUSIONS.

THAT'S WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK.

I DON'T TAKE SAYING THAT LIGHTLY.

I WOULD NEVER NOT FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO SAY IT.

BUT I DID BASED ON WHAT I WITNESSED AND WHAT I READ AFTERWARDS.

>> SO YOUR CORE CONCLUSIONS ARE IT'S AN APARTHEID REGIME.

THE LIFE THERE FOR PALESTINIANS IS UNBEARABLE.

IT'S UNBEARABLE.

IT'S DEMEANING.

IT'S DEHUMANIZING.

AND IT'S MORALLY UNJUSTIFIABLE.

WOULD THAT BE -- >> THAT WOULD BE CORRECT.

THAT WOULD BE CORRECT.

AND I WANT TO ADD TWO THINGS TO THAT.

THE FIRST THING, I KNOW THIS WORTH APARTHEID IS HARSH.

>> IT'S FRAUGHT.

>> I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO THINK I'M JUST THROWING THAT AROUND CASUALLY.

IT WAS NOT JUST WHAT I OBSERVED.

IT WAS READING THE REPORTS OF AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL WHERE THEY MADE THE CASE FOR APARTHEID.

IT WAS READING THE REPORTS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS, THE ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP WHERE THEY MADE THE CASE FOR APARTHEID.

IT WAS READING HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AND THEIR REPORTS.

IT WAS READING THE REPORTS OF AL HAQQ.

IT WAS READING THE WORDS AND THE QUOTES OF PEOPLE LIKE FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARACK OR EHUD OMAR, AND WARNING THAT ISRAEL WAS IN FACT TIPPING INTO APARTHEID.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT IT WAS ROOTED IN.

SO I KNOW THAT IS A HEAVY WORD FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

BUT I DON'T WANT THEM TO THINK THAT I'M SORT OF CASUALLY LOBBING GRENADES FOR THE HECK OF IT.

>> SO LET ME GO INTO SOME OF THE CRITICISM OF THE WORK.

THE BOOK IS JUST OUT, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY READ IT.

SOME OF THE CRITICISM IS YOU WENT FOR TEN DAYS.

YOU WENT FOR TEN DAYS.

THIS IS A NATION STATE THAT HAS EXISTED IN ITS CURRENT FORM FOR 75 YEARS AT THIS POINT.

BUT THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS TO THIS LAND FOR CENTURIES.

YOU HAVE -- NOT JUST THE PALESTINIANS HAVE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS TO THIS LAND, BUT ALSO THE HEBREW PEOPLE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS TO THIS LAND.

AND THESE BORDERS HAVE MOVED BACK AND FORTH FOR CENTURIES.

THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE OFTEN CRITICIZE JOURNALISTS FOR.

THEY SAY OH, YOU GO SOME PLACE FOR TEN DAYS AND THEN YOU'RE ENTITLED TO THE TELL THE WORLD ABOUT IT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WHAT I SAY TO THAT IS THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE HOLD IN OR MORAL THAT WE WITNESS THAT CONTEXT, 600-WORD BOOKS, REPORTS, EVEN MORE TIME WON'T MAKE OKAY.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT I CAN IMAGINE THAT I WILL SEE THAT WILL MAKE IT OKAY THAT ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE LIVES IN A SETTLEMENT AND ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE LIVES IN A VILLAGE AND THERE IS PERHAPS HALF A MILE BETWEEN THOSE TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

AND ONE GROUP HAS DIRECT ACCESS TO WATER AND THE OTHER DOES NOT THERE.

IS VERY LITTLE THAT I CAN IMAGINE, THERE IS NOTHING I CAN IMAGINE SEEING THAT ALLOWS FOR A SOCIETY IN WHICH THERE ARE TIERS OF CITIZENSHIP, BUT AT THE TOP TIER OF THAT IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE BE THEY JEWISH OR WHOEVER, BUT IN THIS CASE BECAUSE IT'S ISRAEL, THE JEWISH WHO HAVE THE TOP TIER OF CITIZENSHIP.

AND EVERYONE ELSE IS SOMETHING LESS.

THERE IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I WOULD HAVE SEEN IN 30 MORE DAYS.

AND I WILL ADD THAT EVEN THAT CRITICISM IS FAMILIAR TO ME, BECAUSE, IN FACT, DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WHEN WHITE SOUTHERNERS WOULD OFTEN SAY YOU WHITE NORTHERNERS WHO COME DOWN HERE STIRRING UP TROUBLE, YOU DON'T KNOW THE NEGRO LIKE WE DO.

YOU HAVEN'T BEEN DOWN HERE.

YOU DON'T LIVE DOWN HERE.

YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT IS.

>> YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION.

>> YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION.

BUT IF YOU ASK THE BLACK FOLKS THERE, THEY WOULD TELL YOU UNDERSTAND IT PERFECTLY.

YOU KNOW?

AND SO I JUST -- I GET IT.

I GET THAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE.

I WOULD LIKE TO DO MORE.

BUT I CAN'T HELP BUT FEEL IF I HAD A DIFFERENT POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THIS, THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICIZING MY JUST ONLY GOING THERE FOR TEN DAYS WOULD THINK TEN DAYS WERE ACTUALLY QUITE ENOUGH.

>> THE OTHER CRITICISM IS YOU DID NOT INCLUDE IN THE BOOK PEOPLE WHO DEFEND THE GOVERNMENT.

IN FACT, YOU CRITICIZE THE IDEA OF WHAT WE CALL -- WHAT WE HAVE STARTED TO CALL BOTH SIDING THE ISSUE, ESPECIALLY IN JOURNALISM.

BUT I STILL WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR UNWILLINGNESS TO INCLUDE FOR PURPOSES OF THIS REPORT OTHER VIEWS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE CONSTANTLY BEING INSTRUCTED, ESPECIALLY IN THIS VERY POLARIZED TIME THAT THAT'S FUNDAMENTAL TO EMPATHY.

AND IF WE DON'T AT LEAST ENGAGE IN THAT PRACTICE, THAT WE'RE NOT BEING TRUE TO THAT FUNDAMENTAL VALUE OF TRYING TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE AS HUMANS.

HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT?

>> THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS THE PRO-ISRAEL POINT OF VIEW, THE ZIONIST POINT OF VIEW, THOSE WHO VIEW THE ZIONIST PROJECT AS A GOOD THING, AS A MORAL THING, AS A JUST THING, THEY'RE NOT UNREPRESENTED IN THE VEHICLES OF AMERICAN MEDIA, IN OUR NEWSPAPERS AND OUR MAGAZINES AND OUR TELEVISION SHOWS.

THAT VIEWPOINT IS NOT UNREPRESENTED.

ON THE CONTRARY, IT'S ONE THAT I WAS VERY MUCH EXPOSED TO.

AND WITH THE PURPOSE OF THAT LAST ESSAY REALLY IS, IS I AM SOMEONE WHO WENT SOMEWHERE AND SAW SOMETHING AND CAME BACK STRUGGLING WITH HOW IT COULD BE THAT WHAT I SAW WAS SO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT -- THAN THE STORY THAT I WAS CONSUMING IN MY MEDIA ON A REGULAR BASIS.

AND I REALLY WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHY.

AND I THOUGHT THAT THE WAY TO DO THAT, MY TOOL FOR DOING THAT WAS TO PRIVILEGE THE WORDS OF THOSE WHO I BELIEVE HAVE BEEN UNJUSTLY PUSHED OUT OF THE FRAME.

AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, THE PALESTINIANS.

MY FEELING IS THAT MANY OF THE PUBLICATIONS THAT WILL LODGE THAT CRITICISM WOULD DO WELL TO LOOK AT THEIR OWN BY-LINES AND COUNT HOW MANY PALESTINIANS THEY'VE PUBLISHED OVER THE PAST 10 OR 15 YEARS.

AND SO IT IS QUITE RICH TO ME THAT I AM BEING CRITICIZED OR THAT I WOULD BE CRITICIZED FOR NOT TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO WILL DEFEND WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE AN UNJUST ORDER, YOU KNOW, IN PUBLICATIONS THAT I ACTUALLY THINK ARE PART OF HOW THAT ORDER MAINTAINS ITSELF.

WHEN YOU DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO SPEAK, WHEN YOU DON'T ALLOW THEM A PLACE NOT JUST IN YOUR INDIVIDUAL WORK, BUT IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE CONVERSATION, IT BECOMES A LOT EASIER TO DO THINGS TO THEM.

>> YOU KNOW I -- I'M WONDERING IF, THOUGH -- IS THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE THAT ONE FAITH GROUP IS PRIVILEGED OVER OTHER FAITH GROUPS?

BECAUSE THAT IS NOT UNIQUE TO ISRAEL.

ISRAEL'S NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT PRIVILEGES ONE FAITH GROUP OVER ANOTHER FAITH GROUP.

THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE THAT ISRAEL IS SEEN AS DIFFERENT, THAT ISRAEL CEASE ITSELF AS DIFFERENT?

>> I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT EXCLUDEING A VERY IMPORTANT GROUP OF PEOPLE HERE, AND THAT'S PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS, WHO I INTERVIEWED SOME OF AND FELT AS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AS ANYBODY ELSE.

THERE IS AN INCIDENT I DESCRIBE HAPPEN IN HEBRON WHERE I'M ASKED MY RELIGION.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT IS VERY INTERESTING ABOUT THAT?

I WAS ALSO ASKED MY MOTHER'S AND MY GRANDMOTHER'S RELIGION.

WHEN YOU START ASKING THAT, YOU ARE ASKING SOMETHING BESIDES DO I ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR.

THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPER GOING ON.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS GREAT EVIL IN THIS WORLD, YOU KNOW, AND I AM WARY OF SINGLING ISRAEL OUT AS SOMEHOW SINGULAR OR MORE EVIL OR WHATEVER, BUT THE POINT I WOULD MAKE IS I AM RESPONSIBLE AS AN AMERICAN, AND PARTICULARLY AS A CITIZEN OF A COUNTRY THAT TAKES SOMEBODY LIKE MARTIN LUTHER KING AS ITS PATRON SAINT, THAT WALKS AROUND TALKING ABOUT WITH GREAT PRIDE ABOUT THE TRIUMPHS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND EQUALITY, HOW CAN I THEN GO TO A COUNTRY WHERE WE BOAST ABOUT OUR SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH AND SEE A TWO-TIERED SOCIETY LITERALLY WITH CITIZENSHIP DECIDED BY ETHNICITY, RELIGION, AND RIGHTS ARE DECIDED BY ETHNICITY AND RELIGION, AND THEN JUST SAY YOU KNOW WHAT?

THERE IS A LOT OF OTHER EVIL IN THE WORLD TOO AND TURN MY BACK.

I JUST DON'T HAVE THAT IN ME TO DO THAT.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, AND I'VE BEEN STRUGGLING TO FIND THIS PASSAGE, BUT THIS IS WHEN YOU WERE WALKING AT THE MEMORIAL TO THE HOLOCAUST, YOU WRITE -- SO THIS IS ANOTHER STORY ABOUT WRITING ABOUT POWER, ABOUT SETTLING ACCOUNTS, A STORY NOT OF REDEMPTION, BUT OF REPARATION.

WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO?

>> MYSELF.

WELL, I WAS TALKING TO MY STUDENTS.

I THINK THAT YOUR IMAGINATION HAS TO BE SLIGHTLY AHEAD AND MAYBE EVEN MORE AHEAD THAN THE PRESENT POLITICS.

AND I THINK THERE IS GREAT, GREAT DANGER IN THINKING THAT BECAUSE YOU LACK POWER IN A PARTICULAR MOMENT, YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO HURT AND DAMAGE OTHER PEOPLE.

I AM NOT IN THAT CASE MAKING A NARROW CRITIQUE OF ISRAEL OR OF ZIONISM.

THIS IS I THINK A VERY, VERY HUMAN IMPULSE TO THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU WENT THROUGH SOME HORRIFIC EXPERIENCE, YOU THEREFORE HAVE A KIND OF MORAL AUTHORITY AND ARE THEREFORE THEN NOT CAPABLE OF INFLICTING HORRORS ON OTHER PEOPLE.

AND AS MUCH AS I FEEL LIKE I SAW THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, IN MY TRAVELS OVER THERE, I MEAN, I WAS TALKING TO US TOO.

I WAS VERY MUCH TALKING TO US TOO.

AND I THINK THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SAY.

>> TA-NEHISI COATES, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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