Tom Nichols: Donald Trump Would Be “George Washington’s Nightmare”

>>> WITH LESS THAN A MONTH TO GO UNTIL THE U.S. ELECTION, THE RACE IS IN THE FINAL FURLONG.

AND AS THE POLLS GET TIGHTER AND CRITICAL SWING STATES, SO DOES THE PRESSURE TO KEEP CAMPAIGNING.

THE ATLANTIC HAS OFFICIALLY NOW ENDORSED VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IN HIS LATEST PIECE FOR THE MAGAZINE, TOM NICHOLS TELLS READERS AND NOW SHARES WITH HARI SREENIVASAN WHY HE BELIEVES RE-ELECTING DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE FOUNDING FATHER GEORGE WASHINGTON'S WORST NIGHTMARE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

TOM NICHOLS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR MOST RECENT COLUMN, THE COVER STORY FOR "THE ATLANTIC" IS TITLED "WASHINGTON'S NIGHTMARE: DONALD TRUMP IS THE TYRANT THE FIRST PRESIDENT FEARED."

WHY THIS ARTICLE, WHY NOW?

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO TAKE US BACK IN HISTORY?

>> WELL, THE ANSWER TO WHY NOW IS BECAUSE WE'RE IN A HOTLY CONTESTED ESSENTIALLY TIED ELECTION WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO RETURN TO OFFICE WITH A VERY CLEAR AGENDA TO BECOME AN AUTOCRAT, TO SUBVERT THE CONSTITUTION, TO UNDERMINE AMERICAN FREEDOMS, TO STAIN THE PRESIDENCY EVEN WORSE THAN HE DID THE FIRST TIME AROUND.

AND I THINK HE THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT WHEN WE WERE PUTTING THIS PIECE TOGETHER TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT ALL PRESIDENTS, EVEN THE WORST PRESIDENTS BEFORE TRUMP, STILL HAD THIS KIND OF BENCHMARK OF GEORGE WASHINGTON, A MAN OF INTEGRITY.

NOT A SAINT.

A MAN WITH A LOT OF PERSONAL FLAWS.

BUT NONETHELESS, SOMEONE WHO SET THE STANDARD FOR PRESIDENTIAL BEHAVIOR.

AND EVEN WHEN THEY VIOLATED, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR, I THINK OTHER PRESIDENTS AT LEAST TRIED TO PAY LIP SERVICE TO IT, OR UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY WERE WALKING IN WASHINGTON'S FOOTSTEPS.

TRUMP SEEMS BOTH UNAWARE OF THAT AND REALLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING RELATED TO THE OFFICE OTHER THAN HOW MUCH POWER AND SECURITY IT CAN BRING TO HIM.

SO I THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO SAY THAT AND TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

WE DO HAVE A BETTER HERITAGE AND A BETTER HISTORY TO DRAW ON.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO SORT OF POINT BACK TO THE FOUNDING FATHERS, ORIGINALISTS, CONSTITUTIONALISTS SAY WELL, THIS IS THE TEMPLATE THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS HAD SET OUT FOR US.

WHAT YOUR ARTICLE REALLY SHOWS IS REALLY THE PATH IN A WAY THAT WASHINGTON FORGED AND THE BENCHMARK HE SET FOR PRESIDENTIAL BEHAVIOR OVERALL.

>> RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK WE GET HUNG UP SOMETIMES ON THE IDEA THAT THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT ANYTHING SHOULD EVER CHANGE, YOU KNOW, THAT BECAUSE IT WAS DONE, THINGS WERE DONE A CERTAIN WAY OR CERTAIN LAWS WERE PASSED THAT NOTHING COULD EVER CHANGE.

WASHINGTON FOR ONE BELIEVES THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO CHANGE THEIR CONSTITUTION AS LONG AS THEY DID IT PEACEFULLY AND THROUGH DEMOCRATIC MEANS.

BUT WHAT WASHINGTON REALLY REMINDS US IS THAT HE FELT THAT THE PRESIDENCY SHOULD BE OCCUPIED BY A PERSON OF DECENCY AND VIRTUE AND PATRIOTISM, SOMEONE WHO WAS ABLE TO PUT THE COUNTRY AHEAD OF THEMSELVES.

AND WASHINGTON DID THAT.

WASHINGTON INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO LEAVE THE PRESIDENCY.

EVEN THOUGH HE WAS A MAN OF GREAT AMBITION, HE WAS ALWAYS DEEPLY CONCERNED THAT HE WOULD FAIL, THAT HE WOULD SOMEHOW NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE UP TO WHAT THE COUNTRY NEEDED FROM HIM.

AND I THINK THAT, AGAIN, THAT'S A USEFUL REMINDER BECAUSE THOSE ARE ETERNAL THINGS.

THOSE ARE NOT PARTICULAR AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION OR PARTICULAR LAWS OR PARTICULAR DOCTRINES, 18th OR 19th CENTURY.

A BASIC SENSE THAT THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE A PERSON OF INTEGRITY, DECENCY, EMPATHY, RECTITUDE, CIVIC VIRTUE, SOMEBODY WHO CARES ABOUT THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU SAID THAT THREE OF WASHINGTON'S MOST IMPORTANT QUALITIES WHEN YOU KIND OF BREAK THE ARTICLE DOWN IN THAT WAY, HIS REFUSAL TO USE GREAT POWER FOR HIS OWN ENDS, HIS EXTRAORDINARY SELF DEMAND, AND MOST OF ALL HIS UNDERSTANDING THAT NATIONAL LEADERS IN A DEMOCRACY ARE ONLY TEMPORARY STEWARDS OF A CAUSE FAR GREATER THAN THEMSELVES.

YOU KIND OF JUXTAPOSE THROUGHOUT THE ARTICLE EACH OF THESE CHARACTERISTICS BY DIVING INTO THE HISTORY OF WASHINGTON.

BUT ALSO COMPARING IT AND CONTRASTING IT TO THE BEHAVIOR OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

>> WELL, THAT LAST ONE IS REALLY IMPORTANT, HARI, THAT NOTION OF BEING A GUARDIAN OR A STEWARD OF INSTITUTIONS AND OF DEMOCRACY.

THAT'S WHAT ALLOWED WASHINGTON TO WALK AWAY FROM POWER MULTIPLE TIMES, EVEN WHEN IT WAS BASICALLY OFFERED TO HIM ON A PLATTER.

IN 1783, THE ARMY WANTED HIM TO LEAD THEM TO PHILADELPHIA TO OVERTHROW CONGRESS, BECAUSE THEY WERE FED UP WITH NOT GETTING PAID AND JUST TO SHOW YOU HOW FAR BACK THIS IDEA GOES, THEY WERE CONVINCED THAT DEMOCRACY DOESN'T WORK.

AND WASHINGTON CRUSHED THAT.

HE ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO DO IT AND SHAMED THEM.

WHEN IT CAME TIME FOR HIM TO LEAVE THE ARMY, HE DID THE UNTHINKABLE, HE WENT AND HANDED IN HIS MILITARY COMMISSION AND SAID I WANT TO GO BACK TO BEING A CIVILIAN, WHEN THEY WOULD HAVE LEFT HIM IN UNIFORM FOREVER.

OF COURSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO SERVE TWO TERMS.

THEY TALKED HIM INTO IT.

JEFFERSON AND HAMILTON TALKED HIM INTO IT ESPECIALLY.

BUT WHEN IT CAME TIME FOR HIM TO LEAVE, HE WOULD NOT STAY.

HE COULD HAVE STAYED UNTIL HE DIED, AND HE BASICALLY SAID I'M GOING TO HOME.

TRUMP, BY CONTRAST, THINKS OF ALL THESE THINGS AS THINGS THAT BELONG TO HIM.

HE THINKS OF ALL THESE INSTITUTIONS, THE ARMY, THE WHITE HOUSE, THE PRESIDENCY, EVERYTHING IN IT, ALL THE BOXES OF HIS DOCUMENTS, THE FURNITURE, THE RUG, YOU NAME IT, HE THINKS THAT THIS IS JUST ANOTHER CORPORATE ACQUISITION FOR HIM, AND THAT THESE ARE HIS TOYS THAT HE CAN OWN AND USE AT WILL.

AND IT COULDN'T BE MORE DIFFERENT FROM WASHINGTON'S NOTION THAT THESE ARE IMPORTANT INSTITUTIONS THAT WILL OUTLIVE HIM AND THAT BELONG TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS IN THE ARTICLE THAT LEFT OUT OF ME WAS SOMETHING THAT JOHN KELLY SAID AT AN EVENT IN MOUNT VERNON ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON.

AND HE SAID ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS WE SHOULD REMEMBER ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON IS THAT HE WENT HOME.

YOU GO ON TO WRITE, "PEOPLE WHO ARE MAD FOR POWER ARE A MORTAL THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.

THEY MAY HOLD DIFFERENT TITLE.

AT THE HEART, THEY ARE TYRANTS."

EXPLAIN.

>> THE WHOLE POINT OF A DEMOCRACY IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO SHARE AND EXERCISE POWER IN THE NAME OF YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS AND TO RELINQUISH THAT POWER WHEN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE LAW AND ELECTIONS REQUIRE YOU TO DO THAT.

THE NOTION THAT POWER IS YOURS TO KEEP FOREVER IS FUNDAMENTALLY AN UNDEMOCRATIC NOTION.

THESE INSTITUTIONS DON'T BELONG TO YOU.

THE OFFICES DON'T BELONG TO YOU.

YOU ARE THERE AS A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHY WE CALL IT PUBLIC SERVICE.

YOU'RE THERE AS A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND KELLY POINTED OUT NOT ONLY THAT WASHINGTON WENT HOME, BUT HE DID IT TWICE.

AS I SAID EARLIER, HE GAVE UP HIS MILITARY COMMISSION, ESPECIALLY IN THE 18th CENTURY, PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T DO THAT.

YOU DIDN'T JUST SAY OKAY, I'M TIRED OF BEING A GENERAL.

HERE, I'M GOING GO BACK TO MY FARM.

AND THAT'S REALLY ESSENTIAL TO THE DEMOCRATIC SPIRIT, THIS NOTION YOU TRUST YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS SO THAT WHEN YOU'RE DONE DOING YOUR TIME SERVING YOUR COUNTRY, YOU HAND THAT OFFICE, YOU HAND THAT POWER, YOU HAND THOSE INSTITUTIONS TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO WILL THEN EXERCISE THEM AND HOPEFULLY WITH THE SAME VIRTUE AND DILIGENCE THAT YOU DID.

>> TOM, I SOMETIMES WONDER WHETHER THE CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING ABOUT KIND OF ALMOST POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY AND IDEA AND SORT OF PRINCIPLE IS SOMEWHERE FLYING AT A DIFFERENT ALTITUDE THAN WHERE PEOPLE ARE ABOUT THE DECISIONS THAT THEY MAKE.

WHAT EXPLAINS IF WE HAD SOME SHARED CIVIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS DEMOCRACY WAS, WHAT EXPLAINS THE FEALTY TO DONALD TRUMP OVER THESE OTHER IDEALS?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A SAD THING, HARI, BECAUSE WE USED TO HAVE THIS SHARED UNDERSTANDING.

AND IT WASN'T A MATTER OF EDUCATION, AND IT WASN'T A MATTER OF BEING WELL READ OR HAVING COLLEGE DEGREES.

WE ALL UNDERSTOOD THE BASICS OF PEOPLE, THE BASIC HISTORY THAT WAS GIVEN TO US BY PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE WASHINGTON, JAMES MADISON, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, AND OTHERS.

THAT'S STILL OUT THERE, AND IT'S STILL BEING TAUGHT.

BUT WHEN PEOPLE ARE RESENTFUL, WHEN THEY BECOME DRAWN INWARD, AND THEY'RE CONSTANTLY CONVINCED NOT JUST BY DONALD TRUMP, BUT BY THIS STREAM OF RIGHT-RING MEDIA POUNDING MESSAGES OF GRIEVANCES, YOU BECOME KIND OF NARCISSISTIC, AND YOU CAN ONLY LOOK INWARD.

AND ALL OF THESE OTHER CONCEPTS -- SERVICE, DUTY, HONOR, HONESTY JUST GET CROWDED OUT AS NOISE.

AND ALL YOU CAN HEAR IS YOURSELF AND YOUR OWN ANGER.

AND A LOT OF THE TRUMP VOTERS I THINK -- AND, YOU KNOW, THIS I THINK IS SOMETHING THAT'S BECOME CLEARER OVER EIGHT YEARS.

EIGHT YEARS AGO, WE HAD A LOT OF THEORIES ABOUT WHY THIS HAPPENED, BUT MOST OF THEM HAVEN'T PANNED OUT.

THIS REALLY DOES COME DOWN TO GRIEVANCE AND RESENTMENT BEING GINNED UP AMONG A PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE REASONABLY WELL OFF, WHO LIVE REASONABLY COMFORTABLE LIVES, BUT DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT THE COUNTRY IS CHANGING, THAT DEMOGRAPHICALLY AND SOCIALLY, THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED IN WAYS THEY JUST DON'T HAPPEN TO LIKE.

AND SO THEY'VE CROWDED ALL OF THIS OUT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.

THEY KNOW -- I GUESS I WOULD ARGUE, AS I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS, I THINK SOMEWHERE DEEP DOWN, THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG, WHICH MAKES THEM EVEN MORE RESISTANT TO ANY DISCUSSION, BECAUSE IT'S VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THEM.

BUT WE -- AS I KEEP SAYING, I WROTE THIS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TO LIVE THIS WAY.

WE DON'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

THE HERITAGE OF WASHINGTON AND THE FOUNDERS AND LINCOLN AND ROOSEVELT AND OTHERS, IT'S ALL AVAILABLE TO US.

WE DON'T NEED ANY SPECIALIZED TRAINING TO EMBRACE IT.

IT'S THERE AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE FOR US.

>> SO TOM, IN THE SAME VEIN, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE APPEAL AND EMBRACE OF DONALD TRUMP AND ELON MUSK.

YOU WROTE A SEPARATE PIECE EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT CLASSIFIED THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

YOU CALLED THEM PLUTOCRATS MASQUERADING AS ORDINARY AMERICANS.

>> PART OF THIS RESENTMENT AND THIS ANGER AND THIS SORT OF ITCHING RESENTMENT ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE IS THAT A LOT OF THESE VOTERS SEE OTHER PEOPLE LIVING RELATIVELY GOOD LIVES, AND THAT ENRAGES THEM.

THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

THEY THINK THEY SHOULDN'T BE LIVING GOOD LIVES.

THEY WANT THEM PUNISHED.

THERE WAS A TRUMP VOTER YEARS AGO WHO GOT THROWN OUT OF WORK BECAUSE ONE OF TRUMP'S GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN THREATS.

AND SHE SAID "THIS ISN'T WHAT I VOTED FOR.

HE IS NOT HURTING THE PEOPLE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE HURTING."

AND THAT IS VERY MUCH -- ONCE YOU'RE VOTING TO HURT PEOPLE, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THIS KIND OF RESENTFUL TRIBE, AND YOU DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR INTERESTS.

YOU DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT POLICY.

YOU WANT PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH ENOUGH AND POWERFUL ENOUGH, PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP AND MUSK AND VANCE, WHO IS A MULTIMILLIONAIRE HIMSELF, YOU WANT TO SEE PEOPLE GO OUT THERE AND HAVE THE ABILITY TO HURT PEOPLE THAT YOU THINK SHOULDN'T BE LIVING AS WELL AS THEY ARE.

THAT TO HURT PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO NOT BE PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU, AND TO MAKE THEM PAY ATTENTION TO YOU.

AND THAT'S WHY I THINK -- THEY'RE ATTRACTED TO THESE PLUTOCRATIC FAKE POPULISTS, BECAUSE THESE GUYS HAVE THE MONEY AND THE REACH TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE MISERABLE IF THEY REALLY CHOOSE TO.

>> SO WHAT WAS IT ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON, WHO WAS INCREDIBLY POPULAR, BUT WHO WASN'T INTO POPULISM OR THE WISDOM OF THE CROWDS?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A WONDERFUL EXAMPLE TO SHOW THAT YOU CAN BE ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY -- WASHINGTON RAN UNOPPOSED.

TWO UNANIMOUS VICTORIES IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

COULD HAVE HAD A THIRD IF HE REALLY WANTED IT.

AND YET WAS DEEPLY DISTRUSTFUL OF POPULAR EMOTION, AND MADE NO BONES ABOUT THAT.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DISTINGUISHED WASHINGTON AND THE EARLY FOUNDER, THE EARLY PRESIDENTS UP UNTIL YOU GET TO MAYBE THE AGE OF ANDREW JACKSON, WHO BECOMES THE FIRST REAL POPULIST KIND OF PRESIDENT, WAS THAT THEY ALL SAID LOOK, WE'RE NOT HERE TO SIMPLY AMPLIFY THE EMOTIONS OF ORDINARY PEOPLE.

WE'RE HERE TO SERVE THE PUBLIC.

WE HEAR YOU, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SIMPLY DO WHATEVER YOU WANT DONE.

THAT'S WHY THE FOUNDERS BUILT IN ALL THESE CHECKS AND BALANCES.

THEY PUT A SENATE IN TO SLOW DOWN LEGISLATION.

THEY HAD A PRESIDENT WHO HAD A VETO.

THEY UNDERSTOOD THIS ROLE THAT YOU SIMPLY COULD NOT RULE A COUNTRY BY DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

THIS ISN'T LIKE ATHENS WHERE EVERYBODY CROWDS INTO THE PUBLIC SQUARE AND YELLS LOUDLY, AND THAT ALL OF THE LOUDEST CHEERS CREATE POLICY.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T WANT, BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP PROMISE.

HE GOES TO RALLIES AND HE SAYS HOW ABOUT IF I DO THIS, AND THE CROWD CHEERS.

AND HE SAYS SEE, I'M A GENIUS.

IT'S A GREAT IDEA.

SOMETHING THAT WASHINGTON WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE.

AND TO THEIR CREDIT, MOST OF THE EARLY FOUNDERS WOULD NEVER HAVE EVEN CONSIDERED DOING THAT.

IN FACT, THEY WORRIED ABOUT IT.

THEY WORRIED ABOUT A DEMAGOGUE WHO WOULD TRY TO LEAD THE COUNTRY BY DOING THAT KIND OF APPEAL TO EMOTION AND TO RAGE AND TO ANGER.

AND THEY PUT INSTITUTIONS IN PLACE TO TRY TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TAUGHT FUTURE 25 YEARS AT THE U.S.

NAVAL WAR COLLEGE.

YOU TAUGHT ABOUT WASHINGTON.

BUT FOR THIS STORY, YOU KIND OF WENT BACK AND RESEARCHED HIS LIFE.

YOU POINT OUT IN THE ARTICLE, AS MANY PEOPLE KNOW THAT HE WASN'T WITHOUT FLAWS.

HE WAS A SLAVE HOLDER.

BUT I ALSO WONDER, EVEN KIND OF KNOWING THAT, WHY HAVE WE ELEVATED GEORGE WASHINGTON TO THIS ALMOST MYTHICAL STATUS?

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MONUMENTS IN WASHINGTON ALONE.

YOU HAVE THESE BEAUTIFUL, ORNATE PLACES FOR LINCOLN AND JEFFERSON, AND YOU LITERALLY HAVE THIS EGYPTIAN OBELISK AS THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK PART OF IT IS THAT WASHINGTON HIMSELF WAS SOMETHING OF A SPHINX-LIKE CHARACTER.

IT HURT HIM TO TALK.

WE JOKE ABOUT THE FALSE TEETH.

HE WAS ALWAYS A MAN WHO WAS VERY CAREFUL WITH HIS WORDS.

BUT IN LATER LIFE, IT ACTUALLY DID HURT HIM TO SPEAK.

SO HE JUST LISTENED, WAS VERY DELIBERATIVE, KEPT HIS OWN COUNCIL.

BUT ON TOP OF THAT, I THINK AMERICANS NEEDED A UNIFYING MYTH, A UNIFYING ALMOST GOD-LIKE FIGURE AROUND WHOM THEY COULD RALLY.

AND WASHINGTON WAS A GREAT CHOICE.

HE HAD WON THE WAR.

HE HAD PRESIDED OVER THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.

HE WAS A MAN OF UNIMPEACHABLE INTEGRITY.

HE WAS RESPECTED BY EVERYONE ACROSS THE BOARD AMONG THE EARLY REVOLUTIONARIES.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS A YOUNG NATION, WE WANTED TO HAVE A FOUNDING HERO.

YOUR POINT ABOUT THE OBELISK IS SO WELL TAKEN BECAUSE THE FEW STATUES OF WASHINGTON THAT WERE DONE AROUND THAT TIME WERE REALLY BAD.

I MEAN, THEY WERE MODELED ON GREEK GODS.

THE ROTUNDA OF THE CAPITOL HAS WASHINGTON TO THIS DAY.

YOU CAN SEE HIM SITTING IN THE HEAVEN LIKE A DEITY.

AND THAT'S NOT WHO HE WAS.

AND I THINK HE WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED THAT VERY MUCH NOW THAT I THINK I KNOW HIM BETTER.

BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF FOUNDING, YOU KNOW, A NEW NATION THAT WE NEED OUR PANTHEON OF HEROES, AND WASHINGTON WAS THE FIRST AND GREATEST AMONG THEM.

>> YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT THIS ELECTION IS MORE CRUCIAL, MORE PIVOTAL THAN PREVIOUS ONES IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HEAR A LOT FROM THE LEFT, BUT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HEAR THAT IN THE SAME WAY FROM THE RIGHT.

I MEAN, WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN FOR YOUR PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR AMERICA AT LARGE, DEPENDING ON THE OUTCOMES HERE?

>> WELL, MY FORMER PARTY.

I LEFT SEVERAL YEARS AGO BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP.

AND BECAUSE OF THE GENERAL DRIFT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH HAS BECOME JUST A CULT OF PERSONALITY AND A VEHICLE FOR POWER.

I THINK THE REASON THIS ELECTION, THE PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE STILL USING TERMS LIKE EXISTENTIAL.

YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP'S FIRST TERM COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE TERRIFYING THAN IT WAS.

THERE WERE STILL SOME PEOPLE WHO BOTTLENECKS AND OBSTRUCTED SOME OF THE WORST THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO DO.

THEY WON'T BE THERE THIS TIME.

MORE TO THE POINT, YOU COULD ARGUE THAT IN 2016, THIS WAS A ONE-OFF, THAT IT WAS A WEIRD ELECTION BETWEEN TWO DEEPLY UNPOPULAR PEOPLE, TRUMP AND HILLARY CLINTON, AND THAT TRUMP COBBLED TOGETHER THIS KIND OF FREAKISH OUTCOME IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

IF HE WINS IN 2024, I'M SORRY TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONFRONT THE REALITY THAT THIS IS WHO WE ARE, THAT THIS IS WHO A LARGE NUMBER OF AMERICANS REALLY ARE, THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT.

AND THEY THINK IT'S -- THEY THINK IT'S DESIRABLE, AND THEY THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE ENJOYING.

AND THAT'S NOT A FUNCTIONAL, HEALTHY DEMOCRACY.

AND I THINK WE ARE NO LONGER THE GREATEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD.

WE'RE NO LONGER THE DEMOCRACY WE ONCE THOUGHT WE WERE, THAT WE ARE, YOU KNOW, A COUNTRY THAT'S IN DEMOCRATIC DECLINE.

BECAUSE ONCE -- ONCE YOU CAN ARGUE IS A MISTAKE OR A ONE HUFF OFF.

TWICE HE TRIED AND WAS DEFEATED.

IF HE COMES IN ON THE THIRD TRY, I THINK YOU JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN THIS COUNTRY AND THAT WE ARE NOT THE COUNTRY WE ONCE WERE.

>> STAFF WRITING FOR "THE ATLANTIC" TOM NICHOLS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.