PolitiFact Founder Explains the “Epidemic of Lying” in American Politics

>>> WELL, NOW, AS AMERICANS GEAR UP FOR THE ELECTION, OUR NEXT GUEST WARNS OF AN EPIDEMIC OF LYING IN U.S.

POLITICS.

PARTICULARLY WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

BILL ADAIR JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK, "BEYOND THE BIG LIE," AS FOUNDER OF POLITIFACT.

HE IS WELL PLACED TO ACCOUNT FOR MANY DISINFORMATION COMES FROM, HOW IT SPREADS, AND THE DANGER THAT IT POSES TO DEMOCRACY.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

BILL ADAIR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW POLITICS MAY KNOW YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN AROUND SINCE -- WELL, YOU'VE BEEN AROUND FOR AWHILE, YOU WERE IN NEWSPAPERS BEFORE, BUT YOU FOUNDED POLITIFACT IN 2007.

JUST, IF YOU WOULD JUST TELL THE STORY OF WHY YOU DECIDED TO START THIS, LIKE, HOW DID THE WHOLE THING START?

>> SO, I STARTED POLITIFACT IN 2007 WHEN I WAS THE WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR "THE ST. PETERSBURG TIMES," THE BIGGEST NEWSPAPER IN FLORIDA, AND NOW "THE TAMPA BAY TIMES," BUT THE ROOTS OF IT REALLY GO BACK FARTHER TO WHEN I WAS COVERING THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS, AND POLITIFACT SORT OF GREW OUT OF MY OWN GUILT, BECAUSE I FELT LIKE, AS A WASHINGTON REPORTER, AND AS A POLITICAL REPORTER, I WAS NOT DOING MUCH FACT-CHECKING, AND I FELT LIKE WE NEEDED TO DO THAT.

SO, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT TIME PERIOD, 2003, 2004, 2005, THERE WERE -- THE INTERNET WAS JUST KIND OF GETTING GOING AS A SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION, AND THERE WAS -- THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE WERE WONDERING, IS THAT TRUE?

SO, I WENT TO MY EDITORS AND SAID, HEY, FOR THE 2008 ELECTION, LET'S START A FACT-CHECKING WEBSITE, AND SO THEY AGREED TO THAT.

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT WITH POLITIFACT IS THAT THERE HAD BEEN OTHER GOOD FACT-CHECKING EFFORTS, MOST NOTABLY FACTCHECK.ORG FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA.

WHAT WE DID DIFFERENTLY IS, WE CREATED A RATING SYSTEM ON OUR TRUTH-O-METER, FROM TRUE TO FALSE, WITH OUR LOWEST RATING, PANTS ON FIRE.

AND WE ALSO KEPT SCORE BY PERSON, SO, WE COULD TELL YOU HOW MANY TRUE, HALF TRUE, FALSE RATINGS ANY PARTICULAR POLITICIAN HAD.

SO, THAT WAS THE INNOVATION.

>> WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THE QUESTION OF WHY THIS MATTERS, BUT FOR NOW, I -- THERE ARE A THAT YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK, AND YOU CAN EXPLAIN ALL OF THESE.

THE FIRST IS, YOU SAY THAT IT'S AN EPIDEMIC.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW IS THAT -- EVERYONE CAN JOIN IN ON THE LYING.

IT USED TO BE HARDER TO GET A MASS AUDIENCE.

YOU HAD TO STAND AT A MICROPHONE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAD TO GO ON TELEVISION, YOU HAD TO GO ON THE RADIO.

AND NOW ANYONE CAN GET A MASS AUDIENCE WITH A QUIRKY MESSAGE, A VIRAL VIDEO SO, THAT CAN MAKE LIES SPREAD SO FAST.

SO, THAT REALLY HAS MADE IT AN EPIDEMIC.

>> THE OTHER THING YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SEEING PLAY OUT RIGHT NOW IN THE CURRENT ELECTION SEASON, YOU SAY, REPUBLICANS DO IT MORE.

WHY IS THAT?

>> SO, THAT HAS BEEN APPARENT TO ME REALLY BEFORE I STARTED POLITIFACT.

WHEN I WAS STARTING CONGRESS, I REMEMBER THINKING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST A LOT MORE -- AT THE TIME, STRETCHING THE TRUTH, AND LYING, COMING FROM REPUBLICANS.

I COVERED THE CAPITOL AND WHATEVER THE ISSUE WAS, I WOULD JUST FIND THAT REPUBLICANS TOOK MORE LIBERTIES.

AND THEN, WHEN I BECAME EDITOR OF POLITIFACT AND WE STARTED POLITIFACT IN 2007, WE REALLY SAW IT FIRST-HAND.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, THAT WAS SARAH PALIN, IT WAS JOE THE PLUMBER, THEN CAME OBAMACARE AND ALL THE LIES ABOUT OBAMACARE.

AND SO, FOR THE FIRST FEW YEARS THAT WE WERE DOING THIS, IT WAS REALLY CLEAR THAT THERE WAS MORE LYING FROM THE RIGHT.

NOW, FOR THE BOOK, TO BACK UP MY OBSERVATIONS AND MY INTERVIEWS, WE ALSO DID SOME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF FACT CHECKS FROM POLITIFACT AND "THE WASHINGTON POST" FACT CHECKER, AND TO BE DOUBLY SURE, WE REMOVED THE BIGGEST LIE YARD, DONALD TRUMP, AND THERE WERE STILL FAR MORE LIES FROM REPUBLICANS THAN DEMOCRATS.

SO, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY QUESTION THAT THAT PATTERN WAS TRUE, AND IS PARTICULARLY TRUE NOW.

>> SO, YOU'VE TOLD US THE WHAT, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WHY?

LIKE, WHY WOULD IT BE THAT REPUBLICANS/CONSERVATIVES TELL MORE POLITICAL LIES?

>> SO, I ASKED THAT QUESTION TO MANY FORMER REPUBLICANS, SOME CURRENT REPUBLICANS, POLITICAL OPERATIVES, ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND I GOT SOME COMMON ANSWERS.

SO, FIRST, ONE WAS HISTORICAL.

A LOT OF THEM PUT THE TURNING POINT IN THE EARLY 1990s WHEN NEWT GINGRICH TOOK OVER THE HOUSE REPUBLICANS.

THAT CHANGED THE CULTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THEY SAY, BECAUSE IT -- IT ESTABLISHED A CULTURE THAT SAYS, ANYTHING GOES.

IF YOU WANT TO WIN, YOU CAN -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN THROW SOME ELBOWS, YOU CAN LIE.

WHAT MATTERS IS WINNING.

ALONG THOSE LINES, DENVER RIGGLEMAN, REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN FROM VIRGINIA WHO SERVED ONE TERM, PUT IT TO ME THIS WAY, HE SAID, THAT MANY REPUBLICANS SEE THEIR WORK AS PART OF THIS EPIC BATTLE, AND IN THAT, IT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT CAUSE TO THEM THAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE THAT LYING IS JUSTIFIED IN THAT -- IN THAT EPIC BATTLE.

AND THEN, THE OTHER THING YOU NEED TO ADD INTO IT IS, MEDIA ECOSYSTEM IN -- ON THE RIGHT, FOX NEWS, TALK RADIO, THAT NOT ONLY DOESN'T QUESTION THE LIES FROM REPUBLICANS, BUT ECHOES THEM, AND EVEN PROFITS FROM THEM.

SO, PUT ALL THOSE THINGS TOGETHER, AND IT REALLY HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY JUST ACCEPTS LYING AS PART OF ITS CULTURE.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT THIS -- SOMETHING THAT IS IN THE NEWS AT THE MOMENT, WHERE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT, SAID THAT HAITIAN MIGRANTS TO A CERTAIN TOWN WERE EATING PEOPLE'S PETS.

AND THIS ALL CAME FROM SOME KIND OF POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AND THEN -- THE ORIGINAL PERSON WHO POSTED THIS SAID SHE DIDN'T -- SHE ACKNOWLEDGED LATER, SHE DIDN'T -- SHE HAD NO BASIS FOR THIS, SHE'D HEARD SOMETHING, SHE REGRETTED HAVING SAID IT, BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T EXPECT ALL THIS TO ENSUE, BUT THEY KEEP SAYING IT.

EVEN THOUGH IT'S BEEN -- IT'S BEEN REPEATEDLY DEBUNKED.

I MEAN, THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT PEOPLE GET FIRED FROM JOBS FOR.

YOU -- YOU COULD GET ARRESTED FOR LYING IN CERTAIN CONTEXTS.

>> I THINK WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT THE HISTORY OF THIS CAMPAIGN, WE'LL SAY THAT THAT LIE, ABOUT THE DOGS AND CATS, WAS, IN MANY WAYS, TYPICAL OF THE KIND OF LYING THAT WE SAW THROUGHOUT THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

AND WHAT'S STRIKING ABOUT IT IS, ON ONE HAND, IT WAS THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED.

THE FACT-CHECKERS DID AN EXCELLENT JOB OF TELLING YOU THAT IT WAS NOT TRUE.

REPORTERS NOT ONLY MADE CALLS ABOUT IT, THEY VISITED SPRINGFIELD, THEY TALKED TO PEOPLE, THEY TRACKED DOWN THE ORIGIN OF IT, AND THEY PROVED IT WASN'T TRUE.

DID THAT MATTER?

UNFORTUNATELY, NOT.

DONALD TRUMP DOUBLED DOWN ON THAT IN THE DEBATE AND WHEN DM DAVID MUIR QUESTIONED ABOUT ABOUT IT, DONALD TRUMP SAID, WELL, HE HAD SEEN IT ON TV.

SO, THAT TO ME WAS IN A NUTSHELL, WHAT'S WRONG WITH LYING THESE DAYS IS THAT POLITICIANS JUST DO IT WITHOUT ANY CARE AT ALL ABOUT BEING CALLED OUT ON LIES.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT AS WE GO FORWARD FROM THIS IS, HOW CAN WE CHANGE THIS SYSTEM TO GET PEOPLE TO CARE ABOUT LYING AND TO GET POLITICIANS TO CARE ABOUT LYING?

>> JANUARY 6th IS SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY SAW, IF THEY -- IF THEY WERE PAYING ATTENTION, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM AT THIS POINT.

AND WHILE SOME OF THEM STILL ADHERE TO THESE LIES AND INSIST THEY ARE PATRIOTS AND SO FORTH, IT'S ALL THIS -- BUT A LOT OF THEM SAID THAT THEY WERE RADICALIZED, BASICALLY, BY WHAT THEY HEARD, AND THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE BEING CALLED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

AND THEY SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WITH HINDSIGHT, THEY RECOGNIZE THEY WERE WRONG.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT KIND OF PUSHED PEOPLE TO THAT POINT?

WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THOSE PARTICULAR LIES PUSHED PEOPLE IN THIS KIND OF VIOLENT AND DANGEROUS DIRECTION?

>> SO, UNUSUAL ANSWER, THE FACEBOOK ALGORITHM.

SO IN THE BOOK, I DEVOTE A CHAPTER TO A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER FROM PARKERSBURG, WEST VIRGINIA, WHO IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO STORMS THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th.

AND THE REASON THAT I CHOSE TO FOCUS ON HIM, HIS NAME IS ERIC BARBER, IS THAT HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE ALONG WITH ABOUT TWO DOZEN OTHER PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

SO, I READ ALL OF THOSE TRANSCRIPTS, AND I NOTICED ONE COMMON WORD KEPT POPPING UP.

WHEN THE INVESTIGATORS ASKED EACH OF THEM HOW THEY CONNECTED WITH PEOPLE, HOW THEY GOT INFORMATION ABOUT THE STOP THE STEAL RALLY THAT TOOK THEM TO WASHINGTON, ONE AFTER ANOTHER, THEY KEPT SAYING FACEBOOK.

AND SO, IF YOU -- IF YOU ASK BARBER ABOUT SORT OF WHAT RADICALIZED HIM, HE'S PRETTY BLUNT IN SAYING, IT WAS FACEBOOK.

FACEBOOK OFFERED HIM THIS -- THIS TASTY FEED OF -- OF CLIPS FROM FOX AND -- AND LOVE FOR BEING -- FOR BEING TRUMPY IN THE THINGS THAT HE POSTED, AND SO, IT REALLY -- IT REALLY GOT HIM TO BE AN EXTREME SUPPORTER OF DONALD TRUMP.

IN FACT, HE WENT TO WASHINGTON NOT SO MUCH TO ATTEND THE RALLY, ALTHOUGH -- I MEAN, HE WENT TO ATTEND THE RALLY, BUT HE ALSO WENT TO CREATE CONTENT FOR HIS FACEBOOK FOLLOWERS.

SO, I WAS REALLY STRUCK THAT -- AT THE -- AT THE ROLE THAT FACEBOOK PLAYED WITH ALL OF THESE PEOPLE, THAT THE INVESTIGATORS INTERVIEWED, AND I -- I FOUND THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY DIDN'T GET DISCUSSED AS MUCH IN ALL OF THIS COVERAGE OF THE PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

>> DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY IT IS THAT AMERICANS SEEM TO BE SO INDIFFERENT TO THIS AT THE MOMENT?

AT LEAST SOME AMERICANS.

AT LEAST ENOUGH AMERICANS ARE INDIFFERENT DO IT THAT IT PERSISTS, BECAUSE IF IT DIDN'T WORK, THEY'D STOP DOING IT.

>> I THINK IT'S BECAUSE AMERICANS FEEL OVERWHELMED WITH INFORMATION.

THAT LIFE SEEMS SO COMPLICATED, AND THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO TEASE OUT WHAT'S TRUE AND WHAT'S NOT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO SIT THERE WITH ONE WEBSITE, FIGURING OUT IF EVERY CANDIDATE THAT THEY HEAR SOMETHING -- IS THAT TRUE?

AND YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DO HOMEWORK TO LISTEN TO A POLITICAL SPEECH.

THINGS ARE -- THE INFORMATION AGE WAS SUPPOSED TO SIMPLIFY OUR LIVES IN MANY WAYS, AND TO THE CONTRARY, IT HAS MADE THINGS MORE COMPLICATED, BECAUSE WE OFTEN FEEL OVERWHELMED BY THIS AVALANCHE OF INFORMATION AND THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

AND I THINK ALONG THOSE LINES, PEOPLE ARE, LIKE, EH, THEY'RE LYING, THERE THEY GO AGAIN.

AND I THINK THEY JUST SORT OF SHRUG AND SAY, WELL, POLITICIANS HAVE ALWAYS LIED, AND I DON'T THINK THEY DISCERN THE FACT THAT IT REALLY IS DIFFERENT NOW.

YOU KNOW, IN THE OLD DAYS, THE LYING SOMETIMES HAD CONSEQUENCES, THERE WERE DEFINITELY POINTS LIKE LBJ'S LIES ABOUT THE VIETNAM WAR, BUT TODAY, LIES ABOUT CLIMATE, LIES ABOUT COVID, HAVE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR OUR WORLD, FOR OUR LIVES.

AND PEOPLE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THESE THINGS.

>> SAY A LITTLE BIT MORE, IF YOU WOULD, I KIND OF JUMPED AHEAD A LITTLE BIT, ABOUT WHY IT MATTERS SO MUCH.

>> PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN THE SYSTEM.

THEY DON'T TRUST THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, THEY DON'T TRUST INSTITUTIONS, THEY DON'T TRUST GOVERNMENT.

THEY DON'T TRUST THE NEWS MEDIA.

IF YOU LOOK AT POLLS, POLLS JUST SHOW DECLINING TRUST IN ALL SORTS OF INSTITUTIONS OVER THE YEARS.

AND SO LYING JUST CONTRIBUTES TO THAT, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE LIKE, WHAT CAN I BELIEVE?

AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, OUT IN THE HORIZON, WE HAVE THE POTENTIAL FOR A HUGE STORM OF ARTIFICIAL DEEP FAKES AND OTHER SORTS OF FAKE CONTENT THAT IS GOING TO MAKE THIS PROBLEM EVEN WORSE.

BUT -- BUT THE RESULT IS A LACK OF TRUST IN OUR INSTITUTIONS, SO, THAT'S SERIOUS.

THE OTHER BIG THING IS, WE CAN'T HAVE A SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT IMPORTANT ISSUES IF WE CAN'T AGREE ON THE SAME FACTS.

IF YOU HAVE ONE PARTY THAT DENIES THAT THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING, WE CAN'T HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT CLIMATE.

IF THAT PARTY CONTINUES TO PUT OUT FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT CLIMATE, AS THE REPUBLICANS DO, WE CAN'T HAVE THE IMPORTANT CONVERSATION THAT WE NEED TO HAVE ABOUT POLICIES THAT MIGHT ADDRESS CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> LOOK, IF LYING IS AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL STRATEGY, WHY DON'T DEMOCRATS DO IT MORE?

>> THE DEMOCRATS ARE STOPPED FROM LYING BY TWO THINGS.

ONE, I DON'T THINK THEY BELIEVE IT'S AS EFFECTIVE AS THE REPUBLICANS DO.

THEY ALSO DON'T HAVE THE MEDIA ECOSYSTEM THAT WOULD EGG THEM ON THE WAY THAT THE CONSERVATIVE ECOSYSTEM DOES.

AND THEY ALSO -- THEY ALSO FEEL SHAME IN WAYS THAT I'M AFRAID TOO MANY POLITICIANS ON THE RIGHT DO NOT.

ONE SENIOR WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL PUT IT TO ME THIS WAY, SAYING, WHEN A DEMOCRAT GETS A PANTS ON FIRE FROM POLITIFACT, THEY GET A CALL FROM THEIR BIG DONOR THAT SAYS, HEY, WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

THIS IS NOT GOOD.

WHERE AS ON THE RIGHT, THE CALL PROBABLY IS, HEY, GOOD FOR YOU, MAN, YOU STUCK IT TO THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW?

SO, THERE'S A DIFFERENT CULTURE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT -- THEY JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT LYING PAYS OFF THE WAY THAT THE REPUBLICANS DO.

>> SO WHAT'S THE WAY OUT OF THIS, BILL?

>> SO, WHAT I TRIED TO DO WAS THINK ABOUT, WELL, WHAT DO POLITICIANS CARE ABOUT?

WHAT DO THEY NEED, AND THEN, HOW COULD WE DEVELOP A POLICY THAT COULD ADJUST THE AVAILABILITY OF THOSE THINGS BASED ON THEIR RECORD FOR LYING?

AND SO, ONE THING THAT MY STUDENTS CAME UP WITH IS ADVERTISING.

SO, POLITICIANS NEED ADVERTISING.

THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO REACH THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND OTHER SUPPORTERS THROUGH ADVERTISING, PARTICULARLY ON THE WEB, PARTICULARLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

AND SO, HOW ABOUT CHARGING MORE TO POLITICIANS WHO HAVE WORSE RECORDS FOR LYING AND CHARGING LOWER RATES FOR POLITICIANS THAT HAVE BETTER RECORDS?

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY HITS THEM WHERE THEY NEED IT.

IF YOU COULD GET THE AD NETWORKS AND SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS TO DO THAT, YOU COULD PUT A DENT IN THE PROBLEM.

I DON'T THINK IT WOULD SOLVE IT, BY ANY STRETCH, BUT I THINK YOU COULD -- YOU COULD HAVE AN IMPACT.

ANOTHER IDEA, SAME SORT OF CONCEPT, IS TO TAKE SOMETHING THAT'S VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH REPUBLICANS, A PLEDGE AGAINST TAX INCREASES, AND APPLY THAT SAME APPROACH TO LYING.

GROVER NORQUIST, THE HEAD OF THE AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM, REALLY, ONE OF THE MORE POWERFUL PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON, HE STARTED A PLEDGE WHERE POLITICIANS PLEDGE THAT THEY WON'T RAISE TAXES.

WHAT IF YOU DO THE SAME THING ABOUT LYING?

IF THEY PLEDGED NOT TO LIE, AND THAT -- THE SIGNING OF THAT PLEDGE BECAME A THING, WHERE THEY WOULD BE CHALLENGED IF THEY DIDN'T DO THAT?

>> BILL ADAIR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, IT IS THE FILM DONALD TRUMP DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SEE.

"THE APPRENTICE" PORTRAYS A YOUNG TRUMP AS HE MAKES HIS ASSENT IN 1970s NEW YORK.

AFTER THE FILM WAS SHONE AT THE CANNES FILM FESTIVAL IN MAY, TRUMP'S LAWYER SENT A CEASE AND DESIST LETTER IN AN ATTEMPT TO BLOCK THE RELEASE.

HERE'S WHAT THE DIRECTOR TOLD CHRISTIANE WHEN THEY SAT DOWN TOGETHER IN LONDON.

>> THE REASON IT'S CALLED "THE APPRENTICE" IS BECAUSE HE IS APPRENTICE TO THIS VERY PROMINENT LAWYER BY THE NAME OF ROY COHN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> VERY FAMOUS DURING THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, BEFORE THAT, THE McCARTHY HEARINGS, AND HE WAS REALLY VERY, VERY EXTREME, VERY GOOD LAWYER, VERY, VERY RIGHT WING, WHO PROFESSED ALWAYS THAT HIS MAJOR CLIENT WAS AMERICA.

BUT I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP, BECAUSE IT IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT THE WRITER GABRIEL SHERMAN SAYS IS WHERE TRUMP LEARNED WHAT WE NOW KNOW AS TRUMPISM.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> THERE'S RULES.

THE FIRST RULE IS ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK.

>> GOING TO BE THE FINEST BUILDING IN THE CITY.

MAYBE THE COUNTRY.

IN THE WORLD.

>> RULE TWO.

ADMIT NOTHING.

DENY EVERYTHING.

>> THERE'S NEVER BEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS OF THIS MAGNITUDE, THIS QUALITY.

>> OH.

CHEESE BALLS OVER HERE.

>> WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

>> YOU WANT ONE?

>> NO, IT LOOKS TOTALLY DISGUSTING.

>> CHEESE BALLS.

>> RULE THREE, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, YOU CLAIM VICTORY, AND NEVER ADMIT DEFEAT.

>> YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE TO WIN.

>> I MEAN, IT IS ACTUALLY VOID THEIR.

NOW, THAT'S A TRAILER, THE THREE RULES ARE ALL BROKEN UP WITH SCENES AND MUSIC.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

DENY, DENY, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, AND NEVER, EVER ADMIT DEFEAT.

AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT AS A STRAIGHT LINE FROM THERE TO JANUARY 6th.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, IT'S ABOUT, LIKE, REALITY WORKS FOR YOU, MANIPULATE IT.

IF IT DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU, JUST MANUFACTURE THE REALITY YOU NEED.

>> GABRIEL SHERMAN, WHO WROTE THE SCREENPLAY, BASICALLY SAID, OF COURSE, THAT HE HAD HEARD ROGER STONE, A VERY CLOSE TRUMP ALLY, BACK IN THE 2016 CAMPAIGN, SAY THAT TRUMP WAS WINNING BECAUSE HE WAS IMPLEMENTING THE LESSONS ROY COHN TAUGHT HIM, THESE THREE LESSONS.

>> RIGHT.

AND OBVIOUSLY, WE FOR DRAMATIC REASONS, WE TRY TO SIMPLIFY THAT, YOU KNOW, AND, YOU KNOW, MR. TRUMP, HE'S LIKE A SPONGE-LIKE CHARACTER, AND SORT OF AN IDEOLOGY OR WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD, BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO, IF YOU WIN, WHATEVER YOU WIN, HOWEVER YOU WIN, YOU WON.

AND THEN, YOU CAN SORT OF WORRY ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES AND WORRY ABOUT THE NARRATIVE AFTERWARDS, AND IT'S BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL.

>> EVEN IF YOU LOSE, YOU WIN, BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT YOU WON.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE -- THE WINNING HAPPENS SORT OF IN THE -- IN THE WORLD OF MEDIA.

AND THE WINNING HAPPENS ON THE NEWSPAPER PAGE, AND IF YOU WIN THERE, THEN THE REALITY WILL SOMEHOW FOLLOW, YOU KNOW?

>> AND YOU CAN WATCH THAT FULL INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIANE LATER THIS WEEK.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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