October 22, 2024

>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AMERICA'S LAST DITCH OF DIPLOMACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

WITH NO CLEAR PLANS FOR THE DAY AFTER IN GAZA, SETTLERS ARE FILLING THE VACUUM.

CORRESPOND TO JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTS.

>> THEN.

>> THE MULLED OVER DROVE TO JOIN THE EU BUT RUSSIA'S DARK SHADOW HANGS OVER THE UKRAINIAN NEIGHBOR.

I SPOKE TO THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER.

>> ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO GET CAUGHT UP IN THE APPALLING SITUATION THEY CANNOT CONTROL.

>> THE SIEGE AUTHOR BEN McINTYRE TAKES US BACK TO THE 40 YEARS OF THE STORMING OF THE IRANIAN EMBASSY IN LONDON AND THE HOSTAGE RESCUE THAT WAS CAPTURED ON LIVE TELEVISION.

THE ELECTION, EVEN IF HE LOSES.

>> THE FORMER U.S.

SOLICITOR GENERAL NO TELLS US WHY HE'S WORRIED THAT AMERICA'S COURT MAY NOT WITHSTAND AN ELECTION CHALLENGE THIS TIME AROUND.

>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING LEAR, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

MARK J BLUSH AND OR, SEATON J MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE IS IN ISRAEL IN THE WANING DAYS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TRYING TO BRING THE WAR IN GAZA TO AN END ACCORDING TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN THE MEANTIME THE U.S.

ENVOY TO THE REGION DESCRIBING ISRAEL'S WAR ON HEZBOLLAH IN LEBANON AS "SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL."

63 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN THE ATTACKS ON MONDAY.

THE LEBANESE HEALTH MINISTRY SAYS.

ANTONY BLINKEN AND HIS MEETING WITH THE PRIME MINISTER LASTED FOR MORE THAN TWO HOURS AS DEATHS AMOUNT IN GAZA EVEN HAMAS LEADER YAHYA SINWAR.

>> WITH NO WORD FROM THE PRIVATE ASTIR AND WHAT HE SEES FOR THE DAY AFTER FACTS ARE BEING ESTABLISHED ON THE GROUND.

FAR RIGHT ISRAELIS INCLUDING GOVERNMENT MINISTERS CALLING FOR SETTLEMENTS IN THE ENCLAVE.

LET'S GO TO OUR CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND IN TEL AVIV .

JEREMY, HERE WE HAVE THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHAT DO WE HAVE IS A READOUT FROM BOTH SIDES AFTER THE MEETING.

>> Reporter: WE KNOW FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S SIDE HE EMPHASIZES TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER DURING THE MEETING THAT LASTED OVER 2 1/2 HOURS HE VIEWS THIS AS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY EFFECTIVELY TO END THE WAR IN GAZA AND STRIKE A DEAL TO BRING THE HOSTAGES BACK IN THE WAKE OF THE KILLING OF YAHYA SINWAR.

IT WAS SIMILAR SENTIMENT EXPRESSED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF.

SO TODAY AS SECRETARY ANTONY THE REGION SINCE THE OUTBREAK OF THE WAR OVER A YEAR AGO, HE ONCE AGAIN IS EMPHASIZING THE POINT BUT WHETHER OR NOT IT BEING RECEIVED BY THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER IS ANOTHER QUESTION ALTOGETHER BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER IN RECENT DAYS IS THE CONTINUED DEFIANCE AND QUITE A LOT OF BLUSTER FROM HIM AS WELL IN THE WAKE OF THE KILLING OF YAHYA SINWAR.

HE SPOKE ABOUT THE FACT HE BELIEVES THIS WAS PERHAPS THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY AFTER HAMAS INSIDE OF GAZA THAT HE MADE CLEAR AS MUCH IS THE KILLING OF YAHYA SINWAR WAS AN INFLECTION POINT IT DID NOT MARK THE END OF ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA AND HE EMPHASIZED THE ISRAELI TROOPS WILL CONTINUE TO CARRY OUT THE WAR IN GAZA UNTIL THE END .

WE KNOW OF COURSE THAT OUR EFFORTS TO TRY TO RESOLVE THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH AS WELL.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT TODAY WITH THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER IS HAPPENING BY ALMOST THE SPECIAL ENVOY FOR THE PRESIDENT ON THE ISSUE WHO'S BEEN IN BEIRUT AND WHAT HE IS PUSHING FOR.

HE'S PUTTING FOR MEETINGS WITH SHAH LEADERS IN LEBANON IN HOPES OF GETTING HEZBOLLAH TO AGREE TO A LONG-TERM CEASE-FIRE THAT NOT ONLY IMPLEMENTS THE RULES BUT IN HIS WORDS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE LEADING TO STRONGER ENFORCEMENTS.

THIS WOULD BE ONE OF THE MAIN STICKING POINTS.

THEY ARE PUSHING FOR MUCH MORE STRINGENT ENFORCEMENTS AND PERHAPS THE POSSIBILITY OF THEM ENFORCING THIS THEMSELVES OVER THE SKIES OF LEBANON AND HAS BELOW, OF COURSE WE KNOW THEY'VE SHOWN SOME WILLINGNESS TO ENGAGE IN THE CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS AFTER THEY FACED BLOW AFTER BLOW OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST MONTH BUT WE DO NOT KNOW HOW FAR THEY ARE WILLING TO GO.

>> CLOSE TO WHERE YOU ARE IN TERMS OF GAZA AND WHAT THE OUT THERE, WE KNOW ACCORDING TO AUTHORITIES SOME 400 PALESTINIANS ARE BEING KILLED IN GAZA ACCORDING TO THE AUTHORITIES THERE SINCE YAHYA SINWAR'S DEATH.

THERE IS NO PLAN FOR THE DAY AFTER, THERE'S BEEN ARTICULATED PLANS PUBLICLY BUT PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN PLANS.

>> Reporter: YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

WE ATTENDED THE CONFERENCE OF A RIGHT-WING ACTIVIST, PUSHING TO CREATE ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS INSIDE OF THE GAZA STRIP FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE 2005 DISENGAGEMENT OF THOSE SETTLEMENTS FROM GAZA.

IT IS NOT JUST THE FRINGE AT THIS CONFERENCE.

AMID CALLS FOR ALL PALESTINIANS TO BE REMOVED FROM THE GAZA STRIP, WHICH WE HEARD FROM DANIELLA WEISS A PROMINENT SETTLER ACTIVIST, WE ALSO HEARD FROM MEMBERS OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S GOVERNMENT INCLUDING SEVERAL MINISTERS.

>> THERE'S MORE TO THE RIGHT- WING CONFERENCE ON THE BORDER AMID MAPS OF GAZA AND CHILDREN'S PUZZLES PROMOTING THE CREATION OF ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN GAZA THERE ARE ALSO CALLS FOR THE MASS EXPULSION OF THE PALESTINIANS.

>> THIS IS THE RESULT OF THE BRUTAL MASSACRE OF THE ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7, THEY LOST THE RIGHT TO BE HERE EVER.

THEY WILL NOT STAY HERE.

FOR IF YOU THOUGHT THE CONFERENCE WAS CONTAINED TO THE FAR RIGHT FRINGE OF ISRAELI POLITICS THINK AGAIN.

AMONG THE HUNDREDS OF ACTIVISTS, DOZENS OF MEMBERS OF PRIME MINISTER'S PARLIAMENTARY COALITION INCLUDING THREE MINISTERS AND SEVERAL MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY.

>> WE WANT TO ESTABLISH SETTLEMENTS TO BRING SECURITY TO THE SOUTH OF ISRAEL.

WITHOUT IT, THERE WON'T BE PEACE TO THE SOUTH OF ISRAEL.

>> THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID ISRAEL DOES NOT INTEND TO RESETTLE GAZA BUT SOME OF HIS OWN MINISTERS THINK HE COULD BE SWAYED.

THE PRIME MINISTER SAID THERE WON'T BE ANY CIVILIAN SETTLEMENTS IN GAZA.

YOU'RE A MEMBER OF HIS GOVERNMENT.

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

>> THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, A LIBERAL PARTY HAS A VARIETY OF OPINIONS AND I CAME HERE TODAY FOR ONE REASON, WE HAVE THE RIGHT AND THESE PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PUT EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE AND EVERY TOOL THAT IS LEGITIMATE TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND SAVE OURSELVES.

>> THAT PUSH TO SETTLE GAZA COMES AS THEY HAVE KILLED MORE THAN 400 PEOPLE IN NORTHERN GAZA OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS ACCORDING TO THE GAZA OFFICIALS WERE TENS OF THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE AND AS THE U.S. LAUNCHES ANOTHER DIPLOMATIC PUSH TO ENCOURAGE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO END THE WAR IN GAZA AND STRIKE A HOSTAGE DEAL BUT IT'S PEOPLE LIKE FAR RIGHT NATIONAL SECURITY MINISTER WHO ARE KEEPING NETANYAHU IN POWER AND I ASK HIM WHAT WILL BECOME OF GAZA'S PALESTINIANS, HIS RESPONSE IS STARK .

HE WILL ENCOURAGE EMIGRATION BUT ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE CONFERENCE, OTHERS INCLUDING THE OCTOBER 7 SURVIVORS, THEY ARE RAISING THEIR VOICES REJECTING THOSE WHO .2 OCTOBER 7 TO JUSTIFY SETTLING GAZA.

>> THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION THAT HAPPENED TO FURTHER THEIR AGENDA AND THEIR AGENDA IS NOT ABOUT SECURITY.

IT'S ABOUT A SETTLEMENT.

IS ABOUT CONQUEST.

WE HAVE TO FIND SOME SORT OF NEGOTIATION WITH THE OTHER SIDE.

WE CANNOT FORCEFULLY GO INSIDE AND TAKE LAND AND DISRUPT VIOLENCE.

>> A CALL SO FAR UNHEEDED BY THOSE IN POWER.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO HEAR THE RIGHT- WING VOICES IN THE ISRAELI POLITICS, THEY REALLY DO HAVE KEYS TO POWER IN MANY WAYS.

AS WE TRY TO GLEAN WHETHER OR NOT THE PRIME MINISTER WILL BE RECEPTIVE TO THESE ENTREATIES FROM THE UNITED STATES TO SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY IN THE WAKE OF YAHYA SINWAR'S KILLING AND THE WAR IN GAZA, STRIKING A HOSTAGE DEAL, THESE ARE SOME OF THE PEOPLE , THESE MINISTERS WHO ATTENDED THE CONFERENCE.

THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE HIS EAR AND THEY MIGHT SWAY HIM AS HE MAKES A POLITICAL CALCULATION.

>> IT'S SO INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN OPINION FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THE CLOSEST AND WHO WOULD BE THE MOST "IN DANGER" FROM THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACK, THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF HOW TO END THIS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR YOUR REPORTING.

ANOTHER TOP U.S. OFFICIAL HAS BEEN TRYING TO MOVE ANOTHER MAJOR WAR TOWARDS THE END.

THE DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN HAS BEEN IN UKRAINE OFFERING MORE WESTERN MILITARY SUPPORT WHILE THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT, VLADIMIR PUTIN HOSTED THE BIGGEST GROUP OF WORLD LEADERS SINCE INVADING UKRAINE AND BEING SLAPPED WITH SANCTIONS MEANT TO ISOLATE HIM.

THE SO-CALLED BRICKS NATIONS OF CHINA, INDIA, BRAZIL, AND SOUTH AFRICA ARE ATTENDING.

UKRAINE'S NEIGHBOR, MOLDS OVER WATCHES MOSCOW'S EVERY MOVE WITH ALARM AS IT EKES TO AVOID UKRAINE'S FATE AND IN AN INCREDIBLY TIGHT REFERENDUM THIS WEEKEND THE COUNTRY VOTED TO JOIN THE EUROPEAN UNION BUT THE VOTE WAS MARRED BY ALLEGATIONS OF BLATANT ELECTION INTERFERENCE BY RUSSIA.

HERE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND THE STAKES MULLED OVER'S DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AS WELL AS THE FOREIGN MINISTER AND JOINS ME FROM THE CAPITAL NOW.

MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME ASK YOU AND THE DAY AFTER THIS REFERENDUM, HOW ARE YOU FEELING IN TERMS OF YOUR NATION'S SECURITY AFTER THE VOTE AS THIN AS IT WAS?

>> THERE WAS A CELEBRATION OF DEMOCRACY AT THE END OF THE DAY.

THE PEOPLE OF MOLDOVA HAVE SPOKEN DESPITE THE KREMLIN'S ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY, OUR DEMOCRACY HAS WITHSTOOD AND HAS SHOWN THE ENTIRE WORLD WITH THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE IS.

THE SECURITY SITUATION WILL CONTINUE TO BE COMPLICATED THAT OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE COMING MORE ADEPT AND ABLE TO DEFEND MULLED OVER AND THIS IS THE TESTAMENT TO THE RESILIENCE OF OUR COUNTRY AND FOR OUR PEOPLE.

WE ARE THANKFUL TO THE PEOPLE FOR THAT AND THE INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS FOR THEIR SUPPORT.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT WAS SO SLIM ?

YOUR SIDE WAS TALKING UP A MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT WEEN IN THE WEEKS BEFORE AND I THINK YOU ATTRIBUTE THIS SLIM WHEN 2- D IS FOR VOTES, MOLDOVANS ABROAD.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS WAS SO THIN OR SLIM IN THE END?

>> WE WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN THAT VOTED IN THE VOTES ACTUALLY BROUGHT THIS OUTCOME TO A POSITIVE ONE.

NONETHELESS, IT WAS LARGELY THE RESULT OF A FORCEFUL CAMPAIGN TO BRING SHADY MONEY TO THE COUNTRY AND BRIBE VOTERS BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS FUGITIVE OLIGARCH WHOSE A FUGITIVE FOR MOLDOVAN JUSTICE WHO PLAYS TO THE TUNE OF THE KREMLIN.

HAVING LEFT MOLDOVANS POORER AFTER THE $1 BILLION FRAUD AND THE OTHER FRAUDS THAT THEY HAVE OPERATED WITHIN, THEY ARE INTERIM AND STERILIZING AND WOMANIZING THE POVERTY THEY LEFT BEHIND TO HOLD MULLED OVER BACK BUT WE WILL NOT ALLOW THEM TO HOLD US BACK ANYMORE.

WE HAVE BEEN HELD BACK FOR 30 YEARS AND NOW WE ARE MOVING FORWARD AND AFTER THIS VOTE WE MOVE FORWARD TO THE EUROPEAN FEDERAL NATIONS.

>> LET ME READ YOU WHAT THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN JOHN KIRBY SAID CONFIDENT THAT IS YOU THE UNITED STATES IN OUR EARLY ASSESSMENT THAT RUSSIA IS WORKING ACTIVELY TO UNDERMINE MULLED OVER SELECTION AND ITS EUROPEAN INTEGRATION AND WE HEAR FROM YOUR PRESIDENT WHO CALLED THE UNPRECEDENTED ASSAULT USING THE MOST DISGRACEFUL MEANS TO KEEP OUR NATION TRAPPED IN UNCERTAINTY AND INSTABILITY ABOUT THE PROCESS.

APART FROM YOUR ALLEGATIONS OF THE GENERAL INTERFERENCE , VOTE BUYING, WHAT SPECIFICALLY HAVE THE PEOPLE YOU ACCUSE, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO AFFECT THIS VOTE?

>> WELL THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CRIMINAL CASES PENDING ABOUT THE ILLEGAL FUNDING AND LEGAL CAMPAIGN FINANCING BUT THERE'S THE INCREDIBLE WEALTH OF JOURNALISTIC INVESTIGATION SHOWCASING HOW THE CRIMINAL GROUP HAS BEEN OPERATING IN MULLED OVER AS THEY TRY TO UNDERMINE OUR WILL TO JOIN THE EUROPEAN FEDERAL NATIONS AND TRYING TO UNDERMINE THE BUSINESS INSTABILITY OF MULLED OVER AND THEY HAVE TRIED HARD AND HAVE FUNNELED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND EUROS FROM THE KREMLIN INTO THEIR -- AND EVEN WITH ALL THAT, WE HAVE REMAINED STEADFAST TO SEE THE FUTURE INTO A PEACEFUL AND PROSPEROUS FAMILY.

WE WORK HARD TO MAINTAIN THIS TRACK AND LOOK FORWARD TO THE RUNOFF FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WHICH ARE HIGHLY CONSEQUENTIAL IN TWO WEEKS TIME.

>> THIS BRINGS ME TO AN INTERVIEW I HAD WITH HER PRESIDENT ONE YEAR AGO.

SHE ESSENTIALLY FORETOLD AND PROPHESIED, IF YOU LIKE, THIS PRECISE , THESE ACCUSATIONS YOU ALL HAD A RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE AND THIS IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME OVER A YEAR AGO.

>> RUSSIA CONTINUES TO PRESENT A THREAT.

TODAY WE THE PROGRESSION FROM RUSSIA AND THEY ARE TRYING TO INFLUENCE, THE ENERGY, THE WEAPONS THERE.

AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR THEY TRY TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT.

>> YOUR GOVERNMENT.

>> EXACTLY.

YOU'VE SEEN VIOLENT PROTESTERS WELL, THEY TRIED TO USE VIOLENT PROTESTERS BUT SINCE OUR INSTITUTIONS DEALT WITH THE RISK WE ARE SEEING RUSSIA TRYING TO DO OTHER THINGS.

FOR INSTANCE, USING DIRTY MONEY TO PURCHASE VOTERS AND OF COURSE WE WILL SEE MORE OF THIS AND THESE ATTEMPTS BY RUSSIA TO UNDERMINE UNDERMINE OUR PROCESS INCLUDING DURING THE ELECTIONS WHEN WE HAVE LOCAL ELECTIONS INTO NEXT YEAR DURING NATIONAL ELECTIONS.

>> SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THE RUNOFF HAPPENING IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS SHE SAID IN RELATION TO THE VOTE, UNFORTUNATELY, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM DID NOT MANAGE TO DO ENOUGH TO PREVENT THEFT AND VOTE CORRUPTION.

YOU SAID YOU WERE CONFIDENT IN THE INSTITUTIONS BUT SHE DOESN'T SEEM TO CONFIDENT.

DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR INSTITUTIONS COULD PROTECT THE PRESIDENTIAL VOTE?

>> OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE CERTAINLY NOT PERFECT AND THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO TO CLEAN UP CORRUPTION AND TO ACTUALLY STRENGTHEN OUR INSTITUTIONS THAT MULLED OVER IS NOT ONLY GOING THROUGH BUT REACHING MEANINGFUL PROGRESS NO MATTER HOW DIFFICULT IT'S BEEN OVER THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS WE HAVE SUFFERED ENORMOUSLY AND ECONOMICALLY.

OUR INSTITUTIONS HAVE BECOME STRONGER DUE TO THE EXTERNAL REFORMS WE ARE PUTTING IN PLACE RIGHT NOW WHICH ARE THE HOPE FOR OUR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT AND WHAT IT REST UPON AS WITHIN SECURITY, WE ARE NOW INDEPENDENT SO IT IS WITH THE OTHER REFORMS THAT WE HAVE LIVING BEEN LAMENTING.

WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO AND WE DON'T SHY AWAY FROM THE DIFFICULT PATH.

WE ARE THANKFUL FOR OUR CITIZENS WHO HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING US IN THIS CHALLENGING AND DIFFICULT BUT INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TIME THIS WAY WE CAN ANCHOR OURSELVES INTO THE EUROPEAN FEDERAL NATIONS AND NOT LOOK BACK BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN HELD BACK FOR TOO LONG.

>> THE REASON WHY WE ARE ALSO INTERESTED IN FOCUSING ON THIS AND REPORTING ON THIS AND TALKING TO YOU IS BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT OF YOUR NORTHERN NEIGHBORS, YOUR UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.

YOU SPOKE WITH THE PRESIDENT, EVERYONE'S CONCERNED OF A REPEAT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN UKRAINE AND YOU REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED, THE UKRAINIAN ATTEMPT TO INTEGRATE CLOSER WITH THE YOU THAT GOT THE FIRST RUSSIAN ASSAULT, THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA, THE INVASION OF THE EASTERN PORTION OF UKRAINE.

DO YOU FEAR THAT GIVEN THAT YOU HAVE RUSSIAN TROOPS IN THIS PART OF YOUR COUNTRY >> CERTAINLY THERE ARE ANXIETIES WITHIN THE COUNTRY BUT IT HAS DECREASED FROM 2 1/2 YEARS AGO BUT ADDING INSULT TO INJURY.

NOT ONLY HAVE THEY ATTACKED IN A BARBARIC WAY OUR NEIGHBOR UKRAINE BUT THEY'VE CONTINUED TO KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND THEY ARE ALSO TRYING TO INSTRUMENTAL LIES AND EMPLOYEE FEAR MONGERING TACTICS TO INCREASE THE ANXIETY AND MULLED OVER TO SCARE THEM INTO SUBMITTING INTO THE KREMLIN'S WILL BUT WE WILL NOT BE SUBDUED.

WE HAVE SEEN THE HORRORS OF THE RUSSIAN WORLD IN UKRAINE AND WE ARE USED TO HAVING PEACEFUL RELATIONS WITH EVERYONE.

WE ARE A PEACEFUL COUNTRY AND WE WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE BUT AS LONG AS WE SEE THE HORROR HAPPENING IN UKRAINE AND THE BARBARIC AGGRESSION ON A DAILY BASIS THE RUSSIAN WORLD WILL DECREASE AND MOLDOVANS WILL AS WE HAD SEEN IN THE ELECTION LOOK TOWARD INSTABILITY IN EUROPE WHICH HAS PROVEN ITSELF TO BE A PROJECT OF PEACE AND PROSPERITY AND MANY WHO LIVE IN EUROPE HAVE CONVINCED THEMSELVES OF THAT AND CERTAINLY THAT IS A POSSIBLE WAY FOR OUR COUNTRY.

>> WHEN YOU SEE THE HELP THEY GOT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED STATES AND THEY'VE PLEDGED YOU $2 BILLION TO HELP THE VARIOUS INSTITUTIONS AND BOLSTERING DEMOCRACY, DO YOU HAVE FAITH THAT YOUR ALLIES ARE DOING ENOUGH AND COULD HELP KEEP YOU SAFE IF YOU NEED IT?

>> WE HAVE TO HAVE FAITH .

IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD, WE CANNOT RENOUNCE OUR HOPE AND WE HAVE TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

WE ARE ALSO ENCOURAGED BY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SO FAR.

THE SUPPORT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS NATIONAL COMMUNITY FOR MULLED OVER HAS BEEN STRONG.

IT WILL ALLOW US TO WHETHER THE ENORMOUS STORM.

WHEN THE KREMLIN PUSHED US WITH OUR BACKS AGAINST THE WALL HOPING WE WOULD CRUMBLE BUT THINGS TO THE RESILIENCE OF OUR PEOPLE AND THE SOLIDARITY OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, OUR PARTNERS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION IN UNITED STATES AND OTHERS IN THE FREE WORLD, WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WEATHER THE STORM AND MULLED OVER'S ENERGY SECURITY IS A LOT STRONGER THAN IT WAS.

WE COULD ALSO ADVOCATE, OF COURSE, ON BEHALF OF UKRAINE TO GET THIS SUPPORT BECAUSE UKRAINE IS DEFENDING US.

>> DEPUTY MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>>> A FOUR DECADE STORY THAT READS LIKE TODAY'S HEADLINES AT A TIME WHEN WESTERN RELATIONS WITH A BRAND-NEW ISLAMIC REPUBLICAN WERE ROCK-BOTTOM.

THE SIEGE AND THE EMBASSY GRIPPING THE WORLD AND WHILE YOU MIGHT THINK OF THE AMERICAN HOSTAGES IN TEHRAN, THIS CRISIS UNFOLDED IN LONDON.

IN THE SPRING OF 1986, THE GUNMEN STORMED THE EMBASSY AND HELD 26 PEOPLE CAPTIVE.

THE HIJACKERS WERE OPPOSED, THEY HOPED THE SIEGE WOULD LEAD TO AUTONOMY.

IT WAS A SOUTH WEST REGION OF IRAN.

THEY WATCHED IN REAL TIME AS TENSIONS RATCHETED UP ENDING IN AN EXTRAORDINARY RAID BY THE BRITISH SPECIAL FORCES.

CARRIED LIVE ON TELEVISION.

THIS BOOK ON THE SIEGE TELLS THE STORY OF THAT WEEK.

McINTYRE TOOK ME THERE AND WE SPOKE RECENTLY IN LONDON.

>> AND McINTYRE WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THIS ROLLICKING TRUE STORY THAT YOU'VE TURNED INTO AN AMAZING BOOK CALLED THE SIEGE AND WHAT IS THE SIEGE?

>> THE MORNING OF 13 APRIL 1980, SIX ARMED GUNMEN BURST INTO THE IRANIAN EMBASSY AND HERE IN LONDON.

OVERLOOKING HYDE PARK.

BEAUTIFUL HUGE 60 ROOM GEORGIAN TOWNHOUSE AND HELD THE HOSTAGES OVER SIX DAYS.

IT WAS ON EVERY NEWS CHANNEL AND EVERY NEWSPAPER.

THE BIGGEST TERRORIST INCIDENT THAT HAD HAPPENED IN THE UK BUT IF YOU ASK WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT THAT STORY TODAY MOST PEOPLE THINK IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM IS 1979, AS YOU KNOW HAD BEEN THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION COME OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT WAS IN PLACE, IN FACT THE GUNMEN WERE ARABS OPPOSED TO THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT.

>> THEY WERE BANKROLLED AND ARMED AND TRAINED BY SADDAM HUSSEIN.

>> HE WANTED TO DESTABILIZE THE REGIME.

THIS WAS THE FIRST BATTLE, IF YOU LIKE IN THE WAR WHICH WOULD INTERRUPT A FEW MONTHS LATER.

>> LET'S GO BACK A LITTLE BIT.

WE KNOW WHO THE HOSTAGE TAKERS WERE, THE TERROR GROUP.

WHO WERE THE ACTUAL HOSTAGES?

26 HOSTAGES INSIDE OF THE EMBASSY FOR SIX DAYS.

>> THEY WERE AN EXTRAORDINARY MIXTURE.

SOME OF THEM WERE IRANIAN DIPLOMATS.

NEWLY APPOINTED BY THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

HARDLINERS IDEOLOGUES PEOPLE WHO BACKED THE AYATOLLAH AND IRANIANS WHO WERE EMPLOYEES FROM THE PREVIOUS REGIME WHO SUPPORTED THE SHAH.

THEN THERE WERE SOME WHO HAPPEN TO BE IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

TWO BBC JOURNALISTS.

CHRIS KRAMER WHO YOU MIGHT KNOW.

>> MANY YEARS LATER HE BECAME THE PRESIDENT OF CNN INTERNATIONAL AND I REMEMBER HIM TELLING THE STORY AND HE REALLY QUITE SUFFERED FROM THE ANXIETY OF IT FOR A LONG TIME AFTERWARD.

>> HE DID, HE FELT A REAL GUILT ACTUALLY HE WERE ONE OF THE FEW THAT WAS RELEASED EARLY AND FELT HE HAD INVEIGLED HIS WAY OUT.

IT HAUNTED HIM FOR A LONG TIME.

THERE WERE SOME WHO HAD SIMPLY BEEN PASSING IN THE WAITING ROOM.

THERE WAS A CARPET SALESMAN.

RON MORRIS, THE MAJOR DONOR IN THE BUILDING.

IN A WAY, THAT'S WHAT I FOUND FASCINATING ABOUT THE BOOK.

THE STORY OF ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO GOT CAUGHT UP IN THIS APPALLING SITUATION THAT THEY CANNOT CONTROL.

>> YOU GET THIS SENSE THAT THERE IS SO MUCH, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT WORD, HUMANITY ABOUT IT.

THE HOSTAGES THEMSELVES.

I KNOW THERE'S THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME.

YOU TALKED ABOUT ANOTHER SYNDROME, THE LEMUR SYNDROME.

IT WAS A RELATIONSHIP THAT DEVELOPED BETWEEN THEM.

>> VERY MUCH SO.

YOU GET THIS A LOT IN HOSTAGE SITUATIONS, THE CAPTORS AND THE CAPTIVES DEVELOP A SORT OF BOND.

THE GUNMEN WOULD GIVE LONG LECTURES TO THE HOSTAGES ABOUT WHY THEY WERE DOING THIS AND WHY IT MATTERED AND BY THE END OF IT EVEN SOME OF THE HARDLINE IRANIANS WOULD SAY WELL, THEY'VE GOT A POINT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS I'D NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE, HOW THE HOSTAGE, THE CAPTORS GAVE THEIR CAPTIVES VALIUM TO DESTRESS THEM AT NIGHT AND CANVAS ABOUT WHAT KIND OF FOOD THEY SHOULD ORDER IN TO KEEP THEM ALIVE.

>> THEY HAD ARRIVED WITH MEDICINES INTENDED TO KEEP THEIR CAPTIVES CALM.

THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WOULD ASSOCIATE WITH TERRORISM AND THE WAY I TRIED TO AVOID THE WORD TERRORIST BECAUSE IT'S A LOADED WORD.

THESE WERE MEN OF VIOLENCE AND I'M NOT DEFENDING THEM BUT THEY DID NOT INTEND TO SPILL TERRIBLE TERROR INTO THE LOCAL POPULATION.

THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD TAKE THE HOSTAGES AND BARTER THEM IRAN AND THOUGHT THEY WOULD GO HOME.

>> THEY DEMANDED THAT, AS YOU SAY OF THE NEW BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, MAGGIE THATCHER WHO HAD TO PROVE HERSELF IN THIS CASE AND YOU ARE WRITING ABOUT THIS, THE WAY SHE BEHAVED WAS WHAT MADE HER THE IRON LADY AND GAVE HER THE NICKNAME.

TELL ME, WHAT HER INSTRUCTIONS WERE TO THE FORCES AND THE GOVERNMENT?

>> THIS SHOWED THE BEST AND YOU COULD ARGUE, THE WORST OF MAGGIE THATCHER.

SHE WAS RESOLUTE.

SHE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THE GUNMEN WOULD NOT GET WHAT THEY WERE THERE FOR.

THEY WOULD NOT BE GIVEN A PLANE TO FLY BACK TOWARD THE EAST AND SHE WAS EXTRAORDINARILY KIND OF, SHE WAS QUITE PIGHEADED IN HER WAY AND SHE DIDN'T GIVE THE POLICE MUCH TO NEGOTIATE WITH.

THE GUNMEN WHO IS NO FOOL QUICKLY REALIZED HE WAS IN AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION AND THE TENSION RATCHETED UP ALMOST IMPOSSIBLY.

THEY HADN'T FACTORED IN ONE CRUCIAL ELEMENT, MARGARET THATCHER BEFORE THE ABSOLUTE KIND OF CLAMPED DOWN ON NO NEGOTIATIONS WITH TERRORISTS BUT IT DID INFORM THATCHER'S ATTITUDE TOWARD TERRORISM IN GENERAL.

THE IRA SITUATION WAS CRITICAL AND FROM THIS MOMENT ON SHE HAD NO INTENTION OF NEGOTIATING WITH ANY KIND OF TERRORISTS BUT IT WAS A GAMBLE ON HER PART.

HAD THIS GONE WRONG AND SHE WAS WORN BEFORE THE FINAL ASSAULT TOOK PLACE ON THE BUILDING BY THE SAS, SHE WAS WARNED THERE WOULD BE 40% CASUALTIES IF THEY WERE LUCKY IF THAT HAD HAPPENED THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF THATCHER.

>> THAT'S IF THEY WERE LUCKY .

IN THE EVENT THAT ALMOST TOTAL SUCCESS SO LET'S GO TO WHAT LAUNCHED THE ASSAULT BY THE SAS , THE CRITERIA THEY HAD AGREED THAT IF SUCH AND SUCH HAPPENS WE WILL GO IN.

>> THATCHER HAD LAID DOWN A RULE, IF ONE HOSTAGE WAS KILLED, NEGOTIATIONS COULD CONTINUE FOR A TIME BECAUSE IT EXPLANATION FOR IT IF TWO HOSTAGES WERE KILLED, THEY WOULD GO IN.

THEY HAD BEEN WAITING IN THE NEXT DOOR BUILDING SINCE THE FIRST HOUR.

>> THEY'D BEEN LISTENING, RIGHT?

>> THEY DRILLED HOLES THROUGH THE BUILDING AND LURED DISCERNING LISTENING DEVICES.

EVERY FOOD PACKET THAT WENT IN WAS ALSO A BUGGING DEVICE SO THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD A GOOD IDEA OF WHERE EVERYONE WAS IN THE BUILDING SO SHE SAID IF THE BEGIN KILLING HOSTAGES WE GO IN.

THERE WAS BREWING TENSION INSIDE OF THE BUILDING BETWEEN THE EXTREMIST GUNMEN AND ALSO EXTREMISTS ON THE IRANIAN SIDE.

ONE PARTICULAR CHARACTER, A MEMBER OF THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD WAS A HOSTAGE BUT HE WAS ALSO THERE AND HE WAS REALLY A SPY WITHIN THE EMBASSY TO MAINTAIN IDEOLOGICAL CONTROL OVER THE OTHER PEOPLE EMPLOYED THERE.

IT WAS A REALLY HARD LINE.

IN A WAY HE WAS JUST AS HARD LINED TO THE GUNMEN.

THEY CAME INTO DIRECT CONFLICT AND HE WAS MURDERED IN THE FINAL CLOSING MOMENTS OF THE EXTRAORDINARY SCENE HE WAS KILLED AND HIS BODY WAS ROLLED OUT OF THE FRONT DOOR BUT THERE HAD BEEN ANOTHER OR SEPARATE SET OF VOLLEY OF SHOTS INTERPRETED BY THE POLICE AS BEING ANOTHER HOSTAGE WHO HAD BEEN KILLED SO WHEN THATCHER HEARD THAT SHE TRIGGERED WHAT THEY CALLED OPERATION NIMROD, A FULL-SCALE MILITARY ASSAULT ON THE BUILDING.

>> ONE OF THE EXTRAORDINARY FACTORS HERE IS THAT THE BBC, THE BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION, THEY BROKE INTO IT, LIVE PROGRAMMING PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME IT HAPPENED AND IN THE MIDST OF THIS IMPORTANT SNOOK A MATCH.

>> I WAS ONE OF THE 14 PEOPLE WATCHING THAT MATCH.

WE WERE GLUED TO THE FINAL FRAMES OF THAT MATCH AND IT WAS HURRICANE HIGGINS AGAINST HIS OPPONENT.

IT WAS AS EXCITING AS SOMETHING LIKE THAT EVER GETS.

WE WERE ON THE EDGE OF OUR SEAT WITHOUT WARNING, HE MOVED TO THE LIVE FOOTAGE OF THE MEN IN BATTLE HELMETS WITH MACHINE GUNS BREAKING INTO THE BUILDING AND THROWING BOMBS AND WHAT APPEARED TO BE BOMBS INSIDE AND DASHING INSIDE.

THE MOST DRAMATIC TELEVISION ANYONE HAD EVER SEEN.

THERE HAD BEEN FOOTAGE OF EXTRAORDINARY EVENTS, THE KILLING OF JFK AND THE MOON LANDING BUT NEVER LIVE TELEVISION WHICH ENTERED EVERYONE'S SITTING ROOM AT THE SAME TIME AND NOT ONLY ON THE BBC BUT ALL THREE CHANNELS, THREE WHOLE CHANNELS THEN.

ALL THREE BROKE LIVE FOR THE STORY.

>> THE RESULT WAS WHAT?

OF THE HOSTAGES TAKEN HOW MANY WERE RESCUED?

>> ALL BUT ONE.

THERE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS KILLED ANY OTHER HOSTAGE KILLED IN THE CROSSFIRE ALL THE OTHER HOSTAGES WERE RESCUED.

IT WAS AN ASTONISHING ACHIEVEMENT AND IT CATAPULTED THE SAS TO PROMINENCE.

THEY BECAME A SENSATION.

YOUNG MEN BEGAN QUEUING UP OUTSIDE OF THE RECRUITMENT CENTERS SAYING I WILL GO AND DO THIS AND IN A WAY THEY WERE EVER SINCE , THE TENSION BETWEEN THE CELEBRITY OF THIS SECRET UNIT AND THE NEED FOR SECRECY.

IT IS HARD TO BE BOTH.

>> OF THE CAPTORS OF THE GROUP THAT STARTED THIS, HOW MANY OF THEM SURVIVED?

>> ONE .

FIVE OF THEM WERE KILLED BY THE SAS.

THE ONE SURVIVOR, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT STOCKHOLM SYNDROME CONCEALED HIMSELF AMONG THE WOMEN HOSTAGES INSIDE.

THERE WERE SIX WOMEN INSIDE OF THE BUILDING WHOSE STORIES HAD NEVER BEEN TOLD BEFORE.

>> WHY?

>> THEY WERE SECRETARIES.

THEY SERVE THE OLD REGIME AND BEEN THERE.

ONE PARTICULAR WOMAN WHO HAD BEEN EXTRAORDINARY SHE WAS THE SENIOR SECRETARY IN THE EMBASSY.

>> SHE MANAGED TO KEEP EVERYONE CALM BUT AS THEY WERE TAKING OUT THE ONE SURVIVING GUNMAN HE HID AMONG THE HOSTAGES AS THEY WERE BEING TAKEN OUT.

SO WILLINGLY, CLEARLY TRY TO PROTECT HIM AND HE SURVIVED.

HE SERVED A LONG SENTENCE IN BRITAIN, HE SERVED TERRORISM OFFENSES.

>> ALL OF THIS HAPPENED WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT?

>> IT WAS THE MOMENT WHEN HOSTAGETAKING HAD BECOME A PARTICULAR INSIGHT INTO THE PREMISES.

IT WAS KIND OF A RAGE IF YOU LIKE WITH TERRORISTS SORT OF THE FASHION OF THE DAY AND AFTER THIS, IT BARELY HAPPENED AGAIN THERE WAS A COMPLETE DETERRENT EFFECT.

IT DIDN'T STOP TERRORISM AT ALL BUT IT MEANT AS IT WERE, THE PLATES OF TERRORISM WERE BEGINNING TO SHIFT.

THE IRA WERE ALSO WATCHING TELEVISION THAT MONDAY AND PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND THEY DIDN'T TAKE HOSTAGES AGAIN AFTER THIS IT HAD A DETERRENT EFFECT.

WITH THE PREMIERSHIP, THE AFTER AND THERE'S AN ARGUMENT TO SAY THAT IT WAS HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL.

SAILING OUTSIDE THE DOWN SIDE OF BIG BEND.

SHE WAS INCREDIBLY PROUD OF IT.

>> THERE WAS ANOTHER HOSTAGE WHO ALSO WORKED IN THE EMBASSY, HE WAS THE GUARD.

HE WAS ONE OF THOSE OBVIOUSLY WHO WERE KEPT CAPTIVE BUT HE HAD A GUN IN HIS COAT OR UNDER HIS ARM ATTACHED TO HIS BODY THAT HE NEVER REVEALED.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> THIS WAS THE ERA WHEN THE BRITISH POLICEMAN WEREN'T ARMED.

ORDINARY POLICEMAN DIDN'T CARRY GUN.

HE DID NOT WANT TO BE A FRONTLINE COP.

HE WANTED A QUIET LIFE AND YET, HE IS IN A WAY A HERO IN THIS STORY BECAUSE WHEN THE GUNMEN ATTACKED HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE STANDING GUARD OUTSIDE, A RATHER ENERGETIC WORD FOR WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE WAS HAVING A CUP OF COFFEE INSIDE AND AS THEY BURST THROUGH FIRING THEIR MACHINE GUNS THE GLASS FROM THE SHATTERED SECURITY DOOR WENT INTO HIS FACE SO HE WAS COVERED IN BLOOD SO HE MANAGED TO PRESS THE EMERGENCY BUTTON ON HIS LAPEL AS HE STAGGERED BACK.

THE GUNMEN BEGAN TO SEARCH EVERYONE BUT THEY DIDN'T FIND HIS GUN WHICH HE KEPT UNDER HIS TUNIC.

HE KEPT IT UNDER HIS TUNIC FOR THE NEXT SIX DAYS.

>> HE CALCULATED HAD HE PULLED IT OUT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT DEAD.

THEY ALL WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT DEAD.

THEY HAD MACHINE GUNS AND HAND GRENADES, THAT AGAINST A PISTOL, A 38 SMITH & WESSON, HE DID PULL A GUN IN THE END.

I WON'T GIVE AWAY HOW HE PULLED THE GUN BUT IT PLAYS A VERY IMPORTANT PART IN THE FINAL PART OF THE STORY.

TREVOR IS AN EXTRAORDINARY MAN.

HE WAS AWARDED THE GEORGE CROSS FOR WHAT HE HAD DONE.

HE LOST IT AND PUT IT IN HIS WIFE'S SEWING BASKET AND FORGOT WHAT HAPPENED TO IT.

>> DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT GROUP ?

>> IS ONE OF THE IRONIES OF THE STORY THAT CAMPAIGNER THE ATTEMPT TO WIN AUTONOMY FOR THAT OIL-RICH PORTION OF IRAN IS AS OBSCURE AND FORGOTTEN TODAY AS IT WAS 43 YEARS AGO.

TERRORISM DOESN'T WORK IN THAT CONTEXT AND DID NOT ACHIEVE WHAT THEY WANTED TO ACHIEVE.

THEY ARE STILL A THOROUGHLY SECOND-CLASS GROUP WITHIN THE IRANIAN SOCIETY.

HEARD OF THEM.

IT COMES AS A SURPRISE TO THEM.

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN ANOTHER KUWAIT OR QATAR, A SMALL OIL- RICH STATE SO THIS IS HOW HISTORY WORKS.

YES, IN A WAY THAT THIS WHOLE EPISODE ACHIEVED NOTHING.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THE SIEGE.

A REAL PAGE TURNER.

WITH EARLY VOTING HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES, CANDIDATES TRUMP AND HARRIS ARE REACHING OUT TO LATINO VOTERS IN SWING STATES BUT AS THE DATE NEARS THE FEARS ARE GROWING ABOUT HOW THE COUNTRY WILL GO WITH WHAT COULD BE A CLOSE RESULT ESPECIALLY IN A KEY STATE LIKE PENNSYLVANIA WHICH MAY NOT BE ABLE TO ANNOUNCE A FINAL TALLY UNTIL DAYS AFTER NOVEMBER 5.

THE FORMING ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL, TALKS ABOUT WHAT THE CONVERSATION IS PART OF THE ONGOING INITIATIVE WITH REPORTS ON THREATS TO DEMOCRACY THE IMPACT OF CHANGES TO VOTING LAWS AND WHAT CITIZENS NEED TO KNOW CALL PRESERVING DEMOCRACY.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

HE WROTE IN A RECENT OP-ED FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, IN CASE OF ELECTION CRISIS, THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW.

YOU ARE WARNING VIGILANCE AHEAD OF THIS.

>> LOOK, I'M NORMALLY SOMEONE WHO URGES CALM AND THINKS MOST POLITICAL REACTIONS ARE OVERBLOWN IN THE COUNTRY BUT THIS IS ONE IN WHICH I FEEL THE OPPOSITE.

I DON'T THINK AMERICANS ARE THINKING THROUGH WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID OR WHAT HE DID BEFORE IN 2020 OR HOW ALL OF THIS RELATES TO THE LAW AROUND THE ELECTIONS AND WHAT UNFORTUNATELY COULD TAKE PLACE ON NOVEMBER 5 AND THE DAYS AFTERWARD.

SO YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ARE LOOKING AT THE POSSIBILITY OF A SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.

ONE THAT MAKES JANUARY 6, 2021 LOOK LIKE A DRESS REHEARSAL AND I HOPE I'M WRONG ABOUT THAT AND I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT IT BUT EVERY INDICATION THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS GIVEN IS THAT HE WILL FIGHT AND CONTEST THE ELECTION EVEN IF HE OUTRIGHT LOSES AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME.

>> WHAT IF SOMEONE IS WATCHING THE SAYS OF COURSE , HE WAS ACTING DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

THIS IS A PARTISAN TAKE.

>> THIS ISN'T A PARTISAN THING.

I'M NOT EVEN A PARTICULARLY PARTISAN GUY.

I'M VERY MUCH A CENTRIST BUT I BELIEVE DEEPLY IN THE RULE OF LAW AND I SAW WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6, 2021 AND IT DEVASTATED ME.

THE ESSENCE OF THE COUNTRY IS THE RULE OF LAW AND THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER AND WHEN YOU HAVE DONALD TRUMP NOW RUNNING AND CANNOT ADMIT HE LOST, HIS VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, JD VANCE WHO SAYS IN THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE, HE CAN'T ADMIT THAT TRUMP LOST IN 2020.

ALL OF THIS IS AN INDICATION OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN OVER THE NEXT MONTH AND IF HARRIS HAD SAID SIMILAR THINGS THAT SHE ENACTED IN SIMILAR WAYS YOU'D BE FIRST --I'D BE THE FIRST PERSON OUT THERE SAYING THIS AS JUST AS BAD.

THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER, THE RIGHT TO VOTE ARE ENDURING AMERICAN VALUES THAT AREN'T ABOUT PARTY.

>> WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT HAVE RECOLLECTION?

WHAT WERE THE LEGAL AND CHALLENGES THAT HE IS POSED AFTER THE ELECTION WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE CHALLENGES?

>> IN 2020 DONALD TRUMP LOST THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE 306-232.

YOU NEED 270 VOTES TO WIN SO HE HAD TO FILE CHALLENGES IN HAVE A HOPE OF OVERTURNING THE ELECTION AND HE DID SO.

HE DID IN STATE COURT AND FEDERAL COURT AND GOT 62 DIFFERENT CASES AND HE LOST THEM ALL BUT HE STILL TRIED HE PRESSURED STATE LEGISLATURES AND GOVERNORS TO TRY AND THROW OUT THE VOTES AND HAVE FAKE SLATES FOR ELECTORS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THEN HE PRESSURED LOCAL OFFICIALS, STATE ELECTION BOARDS TO TRY TO THROW OUT INDIVIDUAL VOTES IN VARIOUS COUNTIES ALL WITH THE HOPE OF TRYING TO FLIP SEVERAL DIFFERENT STATES AND WHEN ALL OF THAT FAILED HE WENT TO CONGRESS.

CONGRESS ON JANUARY 6 HAS THE DUTY TO OPEN ALL OF THE ELECTORAL VOTES AND COUNT THEM SO WHAT HE TRIED TO DO WAS HAVE HIS VICE PRESIDENT IMPUGN THE VOTE AND THROW OUT THE VOTES OF CERTAIN STATES.

VICE PRESIDENT PENTZ REFUSED TO DO THAT AND NONETHELESS TO DO THAT AND TAKE UP THE VOTING OBJECTIONS THAT THEY DID SO AGAINST THE BACKDROP WHERE THEY HAD TO RUN THE TABLE BECAUSE THERE ARE 306 VOTES THAT BIDEN HAD.

HE HAD SUCH A MARGIN THEY COULD NOT JUST IMPUGN THE ELECTION INTEGRITY IN ONE STATE OR TWO BUT IT HAD TO BE MANY.

THE WORRIED THIS TIME AROUND IS THAT THE ELECTION COULD BE CLOSER IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE IN ANY ONE STATE THAT MIGHT SWING THE ELECTION AND IF THAT IS THE CASE THAT ANYONE COURT DECISION OR A DECISION BY CONGRESS ON JANUARY 6 TO THROW OUT ANYONE STATES VOTES ALL OF THAT COULD SWING THE ELECTION.

IT'S THE CASE THAT CONGRESS IN 2022 PAST SOMETHING IMPORTANT, TRYING TO PREVENT THAT AND MY VIEW IS THAT IT SHOULD PREVENT IT, THE LAW IS WRITTEN IN SUCH A WAY TO STOP THE BOGUS OBJECTIONS BUT THE QUESTION IS, THE LAW IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PEOPLE APPLYING IT AND TRYING TO ENFORCE IT AND IF YOU HAVE SOME FAITHLESS ACTORS IN THIS SYSTEM IN CONGRESS OR ELSEWHERE YOU COULD HAVE DEEP CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.

>> RIGHT NOW THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF THE IMPARTIALITY OF THE SUPREME COURT IS PROBABLY AT ITS LOWEST POINT IN OUR LIFETIMES IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAS TO BE ADJUDICATED BY THE SUPREME COURT PEOPLE AUTOMATICALLY SAY YOU KNOW WHAT, THESE JUSTICES ARE X AND Y IDEOLOGICALLY AND THIS IS JUST ANOTHER SIGN OF A GOVERNMENT ILLEGITIMATE IN ITS DIFFERENT COURSES AND ARE NO LONGER REPRESENTATIVE OF MY VIEW OR THE PEOPLE'S VIEW.

>> I WANT TO SAY TWO THINGS ABOUT THIS.

WE MAY NOT GET TO THE SUPREME COURT BECAUSE CONGRESS ON JANUARY 6 MAY THROUGHOUT THE VOTES FROM A PARTICULAR STATE AND EVEN IF IT IS CHALLENGED BY VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, THE POSITION THAT'S A POLITICAL QUESTION AND NOT SOMETHING FOR THE COURTS TO DECIDE AT ALL AND LEAVE THE JUDGMENT IN PLACE OF STRIKING OUT PENNSYLVANIA WITH A 25 ELECTORAL VOTES OR SOMETHING LIKE IT SO WE MAY NOT GET TO A DECISION OF MERIT BUT THE SUPREME COURT, THAT IS .1 AND .2, I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT TO POINT TO THE KIND OF POLLS AND SAY THAT THE SUPREME COURT IS AT ITS LOWEST CREDIBILITY IN OUR LIFETIMES AND THAT WORRIES ME.

ONE OF MY FIRST CASES, I WAS A JUNIOR LAWYER IN 2000 AND I REMEMBER, PHYSICALLY, ON DECEMBER 12 THE SUPREME COURT RULED AGAINST VICE PRESIDENT GORE AND HE RIGHT AWAY SAID, THE SUPREME COURT HAS SPOKEN AND I'M GOING TO GO CONCEDE.

THAT DEMONSTRATED THE REVERENCE HE HAD IN THE COUNTRY HAD IN THE PARTY HAD FOR THE SUPREME COURT.

HE MIGHT HAVE DISAGREED WITH THAT DECISION BUT HE ACCEPTED I'M WORRIED THAT EVEN IF THE COURT TODAY ACTS IN A NONPARTISAN WAY HAVE OF THE COUNTRY WILL NOT VIEW IT THAT WAY AND THAT'S SCARY BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN A STABILIZING INFLUENCE LIKE IN 2000 AND PLAYING THE ROLE IN OUR DEMOCRACY AND AGAIN, I DISAGREED WITH HOW THEY DECIDED THESE THINGS ON DECEMBER 12 BUT I AND AMERICANS RESPECTED IT AND MOVED ON.

>> WE ESTABLISHED THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD VOTER FRAUD OF THE TACTICS THAT THE TEAM TOOK THROUGH THESE LEGAL CHALLENGES AND ELECTORAL CHALLENGES IT DIDN'T WORK IN THEIR FAVOR YET, HERE WE ARE FOUR YEARS LATER IN THERE SEEMS TO BE A SIGNIFICANT GAP BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENED AND THE PERCEPTION .

THERE'S A QUOTE YOU HAVE HERE, THE ROADS ARE NO LONGER AMATEURS.

THEY SPENT THE LAST FOUR YEARS GOING PRO , DEVISING A STRATEGY ACROSS MULTIPLE FRONTS, STATE EXECUTIVE BRANCHES AND ELECTION JUDGES TO OVERTURN ANY CLOSE ELECTION.

EXPLAIN THE KIND OF GOING FORWARD?

>> AS I SAID I'M NOT A PARTICULARLY POLITICAL PERSON BUT I'VE WATCHED WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHICH USED TO STAND FOR LAW AND ORDER AND STAND FOR THE RIGHT TO VOTE I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF ARGUING THE VOTING RIGHTS CASE IN THE SUPREME COURT AND IT HAD BEEN REAUTHORIZED RECENTLY 421 TO 3 IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND 98-0 IN THE SENATE.

THAT IS THE REVERENCE WITH WHICH BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES TOOK THE RIGHT TO VOTE JUST A FEW SHORT YEARS AGO AND UNFORTUNATELY WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE LAST YEARS IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS PURGED MANY OF ITS MEMBERS WHO HAVE TRIED TO SAY HEY, YOU KNOW, THAT IS NOT AMERICA THAT IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC WAY OR THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER.

JUST LOOK AT THE IMAGES THAT WENT AROUND THE WORLD OF WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAPITAL AND UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE NOW NOT PART OF THE PARTY SO SOME OF THE INSTITUTIONAL CHECKS WE HAD LAST TIME AROUND, VICE PRESIDENT PENTZ WHO ON JANUARY 6, 2021 PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE.

PEOPLE LIKE THAT AREN'T THERE BUT INSTEAD YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE LIKE JD VANCE TO REPLACE PENTZ WHO ARE FULLY IN ON YOU KNOW, THE NOTION THAT DONALD TRUMP WON IN 2020 AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THEN YOU WILL CERTAINLY BELIEVE IN 2024 NOW WHATEVER ELECTION NONSENSE HE COOKS UP AND THAT IS WHAT WILL LEAD TO WHAT I FEAR IS THIS CRISIS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURES AND GOVERNORS MANSIONS AND IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS AND IN THE COURTS BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL.

>> WE WERE HAVING THIS ELECTION, THERE ARE DIFFERENT LAWSUITS CHALLENGING DIFFERENT ELEMENTS OF HOW THE VOTE IS COUNTED AND WHICH DISTRICTS COUNT SO WALK US THROUGH SOME OF THIS AND WHAT IS THE STRATEGIC BENEFIT OF DOING THIS?

>> THERE'S AT LEAST 90 DIFFERENT LAWSUITS THAT HAVE BEEN FILED WHICH IS ABOUT 300% FROM 2020 SOME OF THEM CHALLENGING NEW PROCEDURES IN VOTING LIKE THE ELIMINATION OF THE MAIL DROP BOX BALLOTS FOR THE INCLUSION OF VOTER ID LAWS LIKE IN NORTH CAROLINA.

SOME OF THEM ARE CHALLENGING SOME NEW PRACTICE THAT'S COME IN AS A RESULT OF THE LAW AND SOME ARE SAYING THE LAW HAS CHANGED AND THAT THE NEW PRACTICE AUTHORIZED BY LEGISLATURE HAS NOT BEEN FULLY IMPLEMENTED SO THEY ARE FAILING ON THE JOB EITHER FOR EXAMPLE RESTRICTING MAIL-IN BALLOTS OR PERMITTING THEM SO YOU'VE GOT THOSE KINDS OF CHALLENGES THEN YOU HAVE WELL, WE WILL SEE ON THE ACTUAL EXECUTION OF VOTING ON THAT DAY WHETHER THERE ARE POLLING PLACES THAT ARE OPEN TOO LONG OR TOO SHORT OR IF THERE IS ANY SORT OF NATURAL DISASTERS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT WHICH KEEP THE POLLS CLOSED OR OPEN ANY NUMBER OF POSSIBILITIES AND OF COURSE THE ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUD THAT TOO MANY PEOPLE VOTED OR TOO FEW PEOPLE VOTED AND THE LIKE.

ALL OF THAT WILL PLAY OUT IN COURT.

SOME OF THOSE COURTS WILL BE STATE COURTS WHICH HAS PARTISAN ELECTIONS.

MOST PEOPLE THINK OF JUDGES IN AMERICA AS NONPOLITICAL AND THAT'S TRUE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL WHEN YOU WHERE THE FEDERAL ROBE YOU AREN'T A MEMBER OF A POLITICAL PARTY , THAT'S NOT TRUE AT THE STATE LEVEL.

INDEED, MANY STATES INCLUDING PENNSYLVANIA AND GEORGIA WHICH BOTH MIGHT PLAY AN OUTSIZED ROLE ON NOVEMBER 5, BOTH OF THEM HAVE ELECTIONS, FOUR JUDGES IN WHICH THEY RUN AS A DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN SO IMAGINE, IF THE CASES ARE FILED AND YOU'VE GOT EITHER A DEMOCRATIC COURT OR PUBLIC COURT MAKING THESE DECISIONS WHICH COULD BENEFIT A POLITICAL PARTY OR THE OTHER WHICH COULD BECOME VERY SCARY VERY QUICKLY .

THE ANALOG OF THE QUESTION YOU ARE ASKING BEFORE ABOUT THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT BUT NOW IT'S AT THE STATE LEVEL AND IT'S SOMETHING I THINK THAT WE REALLY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT AS WELL.

>> JUDGES IN GEORGIA UPHELD THOSE RIGHTS DOES THIS GIVE YOU CONFIDENCE OR IS IT SOMETHING YOU ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO OPTIMISTICALLY?

>> IT WAS A GREAT DECISION BY A SINGLE JUDGE BUT MY CONCERN IS THAT THOSE DECISIONS WILL GO UP ON APPEAL AND COULD COME OUT THE OTHER WAY BUT THAT'S WHAT I THINK ABOUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WHAT MY PROFESSION IS ABOUT AND IN THAT CASE IT WAS A REPUBLICAN JUDGE WHO RUNS AS A REPUBLICAN AND LOOKED AT THE CHALLENGE THAT WAS AN ISSUE AND RULED A CERTAIN WAY TO PROTECT THE WAY MY LEGAL EDUCATION IS ALWAYS TRAINING ME, THAT'S WHAT I HOPE THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT WILL DO IN THE OTHER JUDGES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WHAT I LECTURE ABOUT IS WHAT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS MINIONS ARE GOING TO DO ON NOVEMBER 5.

THEY HAVE SIGNALED THEY WILL BE ALL IN ON ATTACKING THE INTEGRITY OF THE RIGHT TO VOTE WHICH WILL PUT ENORMOUS PRESSURE ON THE INSTITUTIONS AND IF THERE IS ONE THING TO THINK OF AS VIEWERS LISTEN TO THIS IT IS THE ROLE OF THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS ON JANUARY 6 WERE TRUMP TRIED LAST TIME AND FAILED AND HE WILL TRY AGAIN.

IF HE COULD GET A MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE TO THROW OUT THE VOTE FROM A PARTICULAR STATE LIKE PENNSYLVANIA THIS COULD SWING THE ELECTION.

YOUR ARTICLE WHAT IF NO CANDIDATE WINS THE MAJORITY AGAINST THIS AND THAT'S WHERE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR MISCHIEF LIES WHAT MISCHIEF COULD HAPPEN?

>> THAT'S A DIFFERENT ONE, THAT'S NOT THE JANUARY 6 MISCHIEF I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, MISCHIEF UNDER THE 12th AMENDMENT SO THE 12 AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION WHICH IS AROUND FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS BUT IT HASN'T KICKED IN TWO CENTURIES BUT WHAT IT SAYS IS IF THERE IS NO ONE WHO GETS THE MAJORITY IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE THEN THE DECISION FOR THE PRESIDENCY IS MADE BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND FOR THE VICE PRESIDENCY IS MADE BY THE SENATE SO THERE ARE SOME COCAINE ARCANE VOTING RULES I WILL WALK YOU THROUGH BUT THINK OF THAT, YOU COULD HAVE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT IS A REPUBLICAN AND THE VICE PRESIDENT IS A DEMOCRAT BECAUSE THE SENATE PICKS ONE AND HAS PICKS THE OTHER OR VICE VERSA THAT'S UNWIELDY AND PERHAPS EVEN POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO POLITICAL PARTIES OCCUPYING THOSE TWO WORLDS.

THE 12th AMENDMENT SAYS THAT IF THERE IS A TIE OR NO ONE GETS THE MAJORITY IT WOULD GO TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES BUT IT DOES UNDER A SPECIALIZED SET OF RULES WHICH DO NOT EXIST ELSEWHERE.

EACH STATE GETS ONE VOTE SO YOU COUNT UP THE NUMBER OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND LOOK AND SEE ARE THEY MORE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT?

THAT IS HOW THAT STATE WILL ULTIMATELY VOTE.

IF THAT WERE TO TAKE PLACE TODAY I THINK THERE ARE 26 DELEGATIONS IN WHICH REPUBLICANS HAVE THE MAJORITY.

SO IF THIS WERE TO TAKE PLACE TODAY DONALD TRUMP WOULD WIN BECAUSE THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WOULD GIVE HIM THAT VOTES AND OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW, IT'S A NEW CONGRESS WHICH WILL DECIDE THAT IT'S NOT THE OLD CONGRESS SO SOME THINGS >> WHAT DO WE DO TO STRENGTHEN OUR INSTITUTIONS?

YOU MENTIONED CONGRESS HAD PASSED THE ELECTORAL FORMAT BUT EVEN THAT THERE SEEM TO BE SHORTCOMINGS.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S AMBIGUOUS BUT CERTAINLY HIS LAWYERS ARE SUGGESTING THAT IT IS AMBIGUOUS AND THAT THESE OBJECTIONS FOR VOTING COULD BE MORE BROAD THAN WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK AND WILL ARGUE THAT THE LAW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL SO THAT THIS SHOULD BE SET ASIDE AND SHOULD BE RAW POLITICAL POWER IN CONGRESS WHICH DECIDES THESE THINGS SO THIS COULD VERY WELL PLAY OUT INTO ME THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, WE ARE ONLY A FEW WEEKS AWAY FROM THE ELECTION, TO REALLY BEGIN A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE IS AS AMERICANS.

THE MOST PRECIOUS THING WE HAVE LIKE WHY PEOPLE LIKE MY PARENTS CAME TO THIS COUNTRY WE ARE NOW AND WE DON'T KNOW WHO WILL WIN OR WHAT THE ACCUSATIONS AND THE LIKE WILL BE SO WE NEED A NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW WHATEVER HAPPENS AND WHEN THOSE VOTES OCCUR ON NOVEMBER 5, WE HAVE TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY AND NOT DISCOUNT THEM FOR PARTISAN ADVANTAGE BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING BIGGER AT STAKE THAN WINNING OR LOSING THIS ELECTION IT'S ABOUT THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY AND IF WE WANT THESE SHENANIGANS TO BE PLAYED, WE SAW THEM PLAYED IN 2020 AND FORTUNATELY THEY FAILED BUT THEY MAY NOT FAIL THIS TIME AND THAT IS WHY I THINK A CONVERSATION NOW IS SO IMPORTANT.

>> THE PROFESSOR AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THAT'S IT FOR NOW AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE .

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