November 1, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP .

>>> TO ME, THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WORD -- I HAVE SAID THIS THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS -- IN THE DICTIONARY TODAY, IN ANY -- IS THE WORD TARIFF.

>>> EUROPE FACES THE GREAT UNKNOWN.

WHO WILL LEAD AMERICA?

WHAT WILL THAT MEAN FOR AMERICA'S ALLIES?

>>> FRANCE'S FOR MINISTRY AFFAIRS LEADER JOINS.

>>> THEN, MORE ON VLADIMIR, A NEW PLAY THAT CHARTS THE FIGHT FOR PRESS FREEDOM IN RUSSIA, IN THE SHADOW OF PUTIN'S RISE.

>>> AND -- >> A UNIQUE ADVENTURE FOR US FROM UKRAINE.

>>, STAR SVITOLINA ON THE HORROR IN UKRAINE.

THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN TAKEN FOR ADOPTION BY RUSSIAN FAMILIES.

>>> PLUS -- >>.

A RADICAL SOCIAL CHANGE OFTEN CORRESPOND WITH PERIODS OF HIGH POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN SOCIETIES.

>> POLITICAL VIOLENCE EXPERT ROBERT PAYNE WARNS THERE COULD BE ANOTHER JANUARY 6th TYPE EVENT.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT , JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WIER, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B ENDOWMENT AGAINST ANTI- SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J. BLESHNER, WILLIAM M. DEBRA TINA FOUNDATION, THE JILL GANTZ-20 FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA HUMAN, DEDICATED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMITTEE.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

FROM NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

AMERICA'S ELECTION JITTERS, FELT AROUND THE WORLD.

ONGOING SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, BUILDING UP EUROPE'S MILITARY AND DEFENSE CAPABILITIES, AS LEADERS ANTICIPATE A POTENTIAL RETURN BY DONALD TRUMP.

DEBATES ABOUT TRUMP'S RIGHT-WING AUTHORITARIANISM ECHOES SIMILAR TENSIONS IN EUROPE, INCLUDING IN FRANCE, WHERE THIS SUMMER, THE NATIONAL VALLEY PARTY FOR LA PENNE HAD STRONG RALLIES.

MEANWHILE, IN OCTOBER, RUSSIA MADE ITS LARGEST TERRITORIAL GAINS IN UKRAINE SINCE THE SUMMER OF 2022, AS THE KREMLIN FACES ACCUSATIONS OF OPENLY MEDDLING IN ELECTIONS IN GEORGIA AND MOLDOVA.

BENJAMIN HAD.JOINED FRANCE'S NEW CONSERVATIVE LEANING GOVERNMENT AFTER THE STRONG SHOWING BY THE FAR RIGHT IN THE JULY ELECTION.

HIS AMATEUR DELEGATE FOR EUROPEAN AFFAIRS JOINS US FROM PARIS.

BENJAMIN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

A LOT OF THE FOCUS HERE, FROM THE MEDIA, FOR VOTERS, OBVIOUSLY HAS BEEN ON OUR OWN ELECTION.

JUST FOUR DAYS FROM NOW.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME WORKING IN THE UNITED STATES, IN WASHINGTON, D.C. HOW IS EUROPE VIEWING THE STAKES OF THIS ELECTION TODAY?

>> THE TRUTH IS, WHOEVER IS ELECTED, WE HAVE SO MANY VALUES IN COMMON, THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE SO MANY INTERESTS IN COMMON WHEN YOU LOOK AT RUSSIAN AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE, AND OUR NEED TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND DEFEND THEMSELVES, WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THE LOCAL ISSUES LIKE TACKLING CLIMATE CHANGE, CHINA, SO MANY ECONOMIC CHALLENGES WE FACE, WE HAVE AN INTEREST IN WORKING TOGETHER.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE TRUTH, IF YOU LOOK AT THE WRITING ON THE WALL FOR THE LAST FEW ADMINISTRATIONS IS THAT WE CANNOT JUST DEPEND ON WHOEVER GETS ELECTED EVERY YEAR FOR FOUR YEARS.

EUROPEANS NEED TO TAKE MORE OWNERSHIP FOR THEIR OWN SECURITY, FOR THEIR OWN DEFENSE, BE ABLE TO DEFEND THEIR SECURITY INTERESTS ON THEIR OWN, ESPECIALLY AS WE SEE, ONCE AGAIN, THE WAR OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION AT OUR BORDER, THAT ENGAGES OUR SECURITY AND STABILITY, FIRST AND FOREMOST.

I WOULD EVEN ADD, A STRONG AND AUTONOMOUS EUROPE IS IN THE INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES, AS WE CONTEMPLATE THE CHALLENGES WE FACE TOGETHER TOMORROW.

>> LET ME GET TO THE POINT YOU JUST MADE ABOUT EUROPE NEEDING TO REALLY TAKE A HARD LOOK AT ITSELF AND REINFORCE ITS OWN INTERNAL STRENGTH, AND ITS INVESTMENTS AND ALLIANCES.

I REMEMBER, IN 2019, IT WAS AN INTERVIEW WITH THE ECONOMIST, PRESIDENT MACRON LABELED NATO BRAIN-DEAD AND WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT WAS GOING.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT HOW TRUMP VIEWED INTERNATIONAL ALLIANCES, AND THEY DON'T SPECIFICALLY, NOT REALLY UNDERSTANDING HOW NATO FUNDING, IN HIS VIEW, WORKED, AND THE TWO WERE SENT -- 2% INCREASE FOR BUDGET SPENDING INTO NATO, NOTWITHSTANDING, WE DID SEE A CHANGE IN THE DIRECTION THE EUROPEANS WERE FORCED TO MAKE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

I'M WONDERING IF IT PLAYED A ROLE IN WHAT YOU, YOURSELF SAID, WAS A MUCH-NEEDED REASSESSMENT?

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

EVER SINCE 2017, FIRST ELECTION, VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS PUT THE QUESTION OF EUROPEAN SOVEREIGNTY AT THE HEART OF HIS AGENDA.

AS WE SEE, THE CRISIS SURROUNDING US, AS WE SEE THE WAR OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE, YOUR SING, FIRST, AN INCREASE IN DEFENSE SPENDING ACROSS THE BOARD IN EUROPE.

THE EXAMPLE OF FRANCE, IN THE MACRON PRESIDENCY, WE WILL HAVE DOUBLED DEFENSE SPENDING.

WE ALSO NEED TO INCREASE COOPERATION IN THE EUROPEAN LEVELS.

WE HAVE SO MANY REDUNDANCIES WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR WEAPONS SYSTEM, WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR DEFENSE MARKETS, AND WE WOULD BE MUCH STRONGER IF WE COULD ACT TOGETHER, ESPECIALLY IF WE FACE THE CHALLENGES.

I WILL SAY, THIS IS SOMETHING WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE UNITED STATES, FROM DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION.

IT IS A LEGITIMATE REQUEST COMING FROM AMERICANS.

IF WE WANT TO WORK TOGETHER IN A MORE BALANCED PARTNERSHIP AND FACE THE CHALLENGES WE FACE TODAY, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO INCREASE OUR DEFENSE SPENDING, AND IT NEEDS EUROPEAN COOPERATION, STRONGER EUROPEAN DEFENSE AT THE HEART OF THE AGENDA, ALSO, THE NEXT EUROPEAN COMMISSION THAT WE WILL BE SUPPORTING.

>> LET ME NOW TURN TO THE DEVILS ADVOCATE'S POINT HERE.

HOWEVER MUCH THAT YOU THINK WHATEVER TRUMP'S THREATS OR LANGUAGE, OR HIS ACTIONS STRENGTHENED THE EU AND NATO AS A WHOLE, TRUMPET 2.0 COULD LOOK QUITE DIFFERENT.

THERE WERE BALANCES IN PLACE, GUARDRAILS FROM SOME OF HIS TOP ADVISERS WHO HAD BEEN SUPPORTERS AND ADVOCATES FOR INTERNATIONAL ALLIANCES, SPECIFICALLY NATO, SPEAKING OUT STRONGLY AGAINST RUSSIA'S ILLEGAL INVASION INTO UKRAINE AND SUPPORTING UKRAINE HEAVILY.

NOW, THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN, SOME FROM TRUMP MUSCULAR LANGUAGE, ABOUT WHAT THE U.S.'S ROLE IF HE WINS, IN NATO, WOULD LOOK LIKE, AND WHAT U.S.'S AID TOWARDS UKRAINE COULD LOOK LIKE IF HE IS REELECTED.

HE SAID, THIS WAR WILL END ON DAY ONE.

MOST PEOPLE ASSUMES -- ASSUME THAT MEANS UKRAINE WOULD HAVE TO ACQUIESCE AND AGREE TO A MUCH WEAKER DEAL WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN THAN THEY WOULD LIKE AT THIS POINT.

DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

>> TO REACT TO YOUR QUESTION, THE QUESTION OF UKRAINE, THE SECURITY OF UKRAINE, TODAY, IS OUR FIRST AND FOREMOST CONCERN.

IF YOU LOOK, ABANDONING UKRAINIANS TO RUSSIAN AGGRESSION WOULD BE A HISTORIC MISTAKE.

WE, EUROPEANS, NEED TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINIAN -- WHATEVER THE DECISION MADE BY THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION -- IT IS ON OUR BORDER, THE STABILITY -- >> CAN YOU DO?

SORRY, DON'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT YOU.

CAN YOU DO IT WITHOUT U.S. SUPPORT IS MY BOTTOM LINE QUESTION.

>> I HOPE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO DO IT TOGETHER.

ONCE AGAIN, IT IS THE SECURITY INTEREST OF BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN.

IF YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED THE LAST FEW WEEKS, YOU SEE EUROPEAN TRIPS SENT TO STOP EUROPEAN AGGRESSION, SERIOUS PROBLEM IN UKRAINE WITH THE IRANIAN GROWTH OF MISSILES USED TO FUEL RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

YOU CAN SEE A GLOBAL DIMENSION TO THIS THAT GOES WAY BEYOND JUST A WAR IN UKRAINE.

IT IS EUROPEAN SECURITY THAT IS AT STAKE, AND I WOULD SAY, A GLOBAL CHALLENGE AGAINST DEMOCRACY THAT IS ALSO AT THE HEART OF THE NATO ALLIANCE.

THIS IS WHY WE SUPPORT CONTINUING TO INCREASE SUPPORT TO UKRAINE AND WE WILL BE FINALIZING, THE NEXT FEW DAYS, HOPEFULLY, A $50 BILLION LOAN FUNDING ON THE WILLFUL PROFITS OF RUSSIAN FROZEN ASSETS IN EUROPE THAT WILL LEAD TO MORE SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY TO UKRAINE.

WE SUPPORT FRANCE -- FRANCE SUPPORTS INVITING UKRAINE TO NATO -- THIS WILL SEND A STRONG MESSAGE TO THE MORALITY UKRAINIAN POPULATION, AND WILL ALSO SEND A MESSAGE TO THE KREMLIN THAT WE ARE WITH UKRAINIANS IN THE LONG RUN.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, ONCE AGAIN, TO ENSURE LONG-TERM DETERRENCE AND STABILITY IN THE REGION.

IT IS A COMMON INTEREST THAT WE HAVE.

ONCE AGAIN, I WOULD SAY, AS WE LOOK AT THIS, AS EUROPEANS, UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING AND DYING FOR THEIR FREEDOM AND THEIR SOVEREIGNTY, FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE, BUT THEY ALSO DEFENDING THE SECURITY OF EUROPEANS' STRATEGIC, MILITARY SECURITY, BUT ALSO LOOKING AT FOOD PRICES, ENERGY PRICES, IT IS OUR INTEREST THAT ARE AT STAKE, AND THIS IS WHY WE ALL NEED TO BE ABLE TO STEP FORTH TOGETHER AND SUPPORT THEM.

>> IS A YOUR GOVERNMENT'S VIEW THAT A FUTURE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION VIEWS THOSE STAKES JUST AS HIGH AS YOU DO AND SEES THE CURRENT DYNAMIC IN EUROPE THE WAY YOU JUST DESCRIBED?

IT IS NOT JUST FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, IT IS HIS RUNNING MATE J.D.

VANCE THAT HAS BEEN CRITICIZED FOR DESCRIBING THE WAR IN UKRAINE, MORE OR LESS, AS A TERRITORIAL, REGIONAL ISSUE WITHOUT A REAL THREAT TO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES.

>> LIKE I SAID, IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE HISTORICALLY TO ABANDON UKRAINIANS.

ONCE AGAIN, IT IS NOT ONLY OUR SECURITY, BUT IT IS ALSO A PRECEDENT WE WOULD CREATE FOR OTHER FEARS AND AGGRESSIONS DOWN THE ROAD.

SO, IT INVOLVES OUR INTEREST, BUT ALSO, THE INTEREST OF THE ALLIANCE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND I THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO WORK TOGETHER ON THIS.

ONCE AGAIN, EUROPEANS NEED TO STEP UP ON DEFENSE SPENDING, THIS IS WHY WE NEED TO STEP UP ON DEFENSE COOPERATION AT THE EUROPEAN LEVEL, DEVELOPED THE FINANCIAL INSTRUMENTS TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINIANS, EVEN THE -- ON OUR OWN IF NEEDED -- THIS IS THE BEST MESSAGE FRANCIS AND INTUIT'S PARTNERS IN EUROPE.

BY THE WAY, I WANT TO ADD, IF YOU LOOK AT THE COMBINED MILITARY, ECONOMIC, HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT EUROPEANS, AS A WHOLE, HAVE YOU SEEN PROVIDE TO UKRAINE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE AGGRESSION FEBRUARY 24th, 2020, HIGHER THAN THOSE OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BURDEN SHARING, EUROPEANS STEPPING UP, TAKING THEIR PART AND THEIR RESPONSIBLE IT FOR THEIR OWN SECURITY, EUROPEANS ARE HERE.

>> NO DOUBT.

THE EUROPEANS HAVE DIFFERENT LEASE BUT -- STEPPED UP THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF.

I KNOW YOU ARE BEING VERY DIPLOMATIC, AS YOU SHOULD BE, REPRESENTING YOUR GOVERNMENT TYPICALLY, STATING THAT YOU ARE CAPABLE AND WILLING TO WORK WITH ANY ADMINISTRATION THAT THE U.S. ELECTS IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT IS NOTABLE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF YOUR NEIGHBORING LEADERS, VIKTOR ORBAN, HAS GONE UP PUBLICLY AND PUT HIS THUMB ON THE SCALE, SAY, HE WOULD LIKE FOR DONALD TRUMP TO WIN, HE ENDORSED HIM AND HAS MET WITH HIM IN THE UNITED STATES RECENTLY, HERE IS WHAT HE TWEETED OCTOBER 31st.

JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WISHED HIM THE BEST OF LUCK NEXT TUESDAY.

FIVE DAYS TO GO, FINGERS CROSSED.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT, GIVEN THE CRITICISM?

I KNOW YOU HAVE HER THAT SHE HAS RECEIVED EVER BEING STRUNG, AUTHORITARIAN, DEMOCRACY PROPONENT, AND ALSO, ONE OF THE OUTLIERS, IN TERMS OF PROVIDING AID FOR UKRAINE, ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD AGREE, AND FOR THE MOST PART, HE HAS, BUT IT HAS BEEN AN UPHILL BATTLE TO GET THEM TO SIGN OFF WHERE MOST OF YOUR NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES HAVE.

DOES THAT WERE YOU WHEN YOU HEAR -- WORRY YOU WHEN YOU HEAR THAT?

IS IT APPROPRIATE?

>> THE GLASS HALF-FULL, THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS, WE MANAGED TO STAY UNITED AND IMPOSE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA, AND RENEW THEM ON A DAILY BASIS.

WE HAVE MANAGED TO APPROVE THE DIFFERENT REGIMENTS THE EUROPEAN FACILITY HAS ALLOWED US TO FUND, THE WEAPON DELIVERIES WE HAVE SENT TO UKRAINE.

I DON'T WANT TO EXAGGERATE, ALSO, WE HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN A UNITED FRONT FROM EUROPEANS IN THE SUPPORT OF UKRAINE.

I WANT TO ADD TO THIS, WHEN WE HAD THIS DIALOGUE, WE ALSO HAD TO DEFEND OUR INTERESTS THINKING ABOUT TRADE ISSUES.

HE WANTED TO HAVE A ROBUST TRANSATLANTIC, BUT ADVANCED TRANSLATE THE PARTNERSHIP WITH OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS.

WE ARE MUCH STRONGER IF WE ARE UNITED.

I THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT MISTAKE ON OUR END TO GO FOR BILATERAL RELATIONS, TRANSACTIONAL RELATIONS, WHEN WE ACTUALLY NEED TO STAY UNITED AND SHOW A UNITED FRONT FOR THIS TRANSATLANTIC UNION SEE THE RELATIONSHIP, OR THEIR AMANPOUR WE CAN AND DIVIDE US, LIKE VLADIMIR PUTIN.

HE WILL CLEARLY BE LOOKING AT THAT.

KEEPING A UNITED FRONT, I THINK, IN THIS DIALOGUE, IS MORE CRITICAL THAN EVER.

>> LET ME?

-- QUICKLY, ONE OF DONALD TRUMP'S FAVORITE WORDS, TARIFFS, AND PROPOSING A SAFETY PERCENT SURCHARGE ON CHINESE GOODS, 10% SURCHARGE ON EUROPEAN MADE GOODS.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT A FUTURE TRADE WAR FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> WE ARE EACH OTHER'S MOST IMPORTANT TRADING PARTNER.

WE HAVE A STRONG ECONOMIC INTEREST ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC TO CONTINUE TO TRADE, CONTINUE TO WORK TOGETHER, AND ONCE AGAIN, NOT DIVIDE, BECAUSE THIS WILL ONLY FUEL OUR ADVERSARIES AND OPPONENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GEORGIA, MOLDOVA TODAY, THIS IS THE EUROPEAN ASPIRATION THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN, HIS INTERFERENCE, IS TRYING TO GO AFTER THIS WOULD NOT BE IN OUR INTEREST.

THAT BEING SAID, EUROPEANS DEFEND THEMSELVES, DEFEND THEIR INTERESTS.

WE HAVE DEVELOPED TOOLS OF EUROPEAN LEVEL IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, NOT TO BE NAOVE ON TRADE ISSUES I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, WE IMPOSE TARIFFS ON CHINESE ELECTRIC VEHICLES AS A RESPONSE TO THE DISLOYAL TRADE PRACTICES BY CHINA THAT WAS HEAVILY SUBSIDIZING ITS ELECTRIC VEHICLE INDUSTRY, AND THE EUROPEANS HAVE GOT TOGETHER TO MANAGE TO IMPOSE TARIFFS.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE WERE CAPABLE OF DOING A FEW YEARS AGO.

THIS IS ALSO THE AGENDA OF THE EUROPEAN SOVEREIGNTY, DEFENDING ITSELF, AND PRESIDENT MACRON HAS BEEN PUSHING THAT AT THE EUROPEAN LOVABLE -- LEVEL.

>> BENJAMIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

WE APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> HARD TO BEAT RUSSIAN PRESIDENT BUT, PUT IN FOR THEATRICS.

THAT IS WHY A PLAY CALLED "VLADIMIR" MAKES A BOLD AND SURPRISING CHOICE.

IT IN HIMSELF NEVER APPEARS IN THE PLAY, BUT HIS LIVING PRESENCE IS FELT AND EVERYTHING THAT TRANSPIRES.

IT IS A STORY OF A JOURNALIST COVERING PUTIN IN THE EARLY DAYS OF HIS REGIME.

WESTERN LEADERS SAW HIM AS A NEW HOPE FOR RUSSIA, IGNORING WARNING SIGNS OF THE AUTOCRACY.

FRANCESCA, THE JOURNALIST, AND THE EDITOR AND FRIEND CLOSE TO HER, FRANCESCA WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM -- WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I HAVE TO SAY, I REALLY ENJOYED THIS PLAY.

IT HAD A LITTLE TOO CLOSE TO HOME, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT HAS TRANSPIRED, AND OBVIOUSLY, ALL OF THE ATTENTION WE HAVE FOCUSED ON, FOR RUSSIA THE LAST TWO AND HALF YEARS, THE WAR IN YOUR CRANE, BUT THIS TAKES US BACK TO 2000, BEGINNING WITH THE PRESIDENT SIGNING UP TO THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC ON NEW YEAR'S EVE WITH HIS MESSAGE, SAYING, THEY WILL WAKE UP TO A NEW PRESIDENT, AND THE PRESIDENT WAS AN UNKNOWN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY.

VLADIMIR PUTIN.

HERE WE ARE, AND YOUR CHARACTER, FRANCESCA, REALLY A FICTIONAL CHARACTER, BUT ONE WHO IS BASED, A LOT, ON AN INTREPID REPORTER WHO ACTUALLY LOST HER LIFE WORKING ON FINDING THE TRUTH UNCOVERING A WAR IN CHECHNYA.

HOW MUCH DID YOU KNOW ABOUT THE BACKGROUND OF THIS STORY WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN AND NOT PART OF RUSSIAN HISTORY BEFORE YOU TOOK THE PARK?

>> I DIDN'T KNOW A LOT, BUT I READ A LOT OF THE WORK, AND ALSO, WATCHED A LOT OF DOCUMENTARIES.

REALLY, RUSSIAN HISTORY IS SO IMMENSE, SO EXTRODINARY, AND SO, YOU HAVE TO REALLY GO BACK QUITE A BIT TO REALLY GET A RUN-UP OF IT, AND, FOR THIS SPECIFIC PART, WHICH YOU REALLY SEE THE MOMENT OF THIS SORT OF APPLICATION SPEECH FROM YELSIN, THE JUMP TO 2004, THE FIRST SCENE OF THE CRADLE, AND YOU HAVE SEEN HIM BE IN POWER FOR FOUR YEARS, AND IT IS HIS FIRST ELECTION, HEAVY QUOTES.

AND SO, YES, HAD TO GO BACK IN AND REALLY REMIND MYSELF WHAT EXACTLY WAS GOING ON.

ALL OF THE PEOPLE, WHOM THE MOVING PARTS ARE, BECAUSE I FOUND IT COMPLICATED.

>> IT WAS COMPLICATED, YET, IT ALL HAPPENED SO QUICKLY, AND WHAT YOU WERE ABLE TO DELIVER MASTERFULLY IN THIS PLAY SET A LEVEL OF SUSPENSE FOR A STORY THAT SADLY HAD ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN.

WE KNEW THINGS WOULD END, BUT THERE WAS A SENSE OF HOPE AND OPTIMISM AND FREEDOM OF THE PRESS, IN JOURNALISM AND STORYTELLING, AND AS AN EDITOR OF SORTS, THE MORE LEVELHEADED THINKER OF THE TWO, BAAS WAS ALWAYS RUNNING AFTER THE NEXT BIG STORY.

WHAT DREW YOU TO YOUR CHARACTER, AND TO THIS PLAY, AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE RUN UP TO THE SHOW.

>> FOR.

I DID A READING OF THE PLAY FOR ERICA SCHEFFER, PLAYWRIGHT, DAN SULLIVAN, THE DIRECTOR, ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE WE WENT INTO PRODUCTION.

MY KNOWLEDGE OF RUSSIAN HISTORY IS PROBABLY EVEN LESS THAN FRANKIE'S.

BUT I COULD SENSE THE PLAY RIGHT AWAY A WRITER WITH A REAL VOICE.

THERE WAS A RIGHTEOUSNESS TO ERICA'S WRITING.

AS ERICA SAYS IN THE PROGRAM NOTES, SHE WANTED THE PLATE TO FEEL LIKE A CRY OF FRUSTRATION, OF DISILLUSIONMENT, AND I RECOGNIZED THAT IN THE WRITING.

I WAS A POLITICAL SCIENCE MINOR IN COLLEGE, AND I LOVE THE DIALECTIC AND THE ARGUMENT.

I LOVE THE LANGUAGE OF POLITICAL ARGUMENTS, AND ERICA JUST NAILS IT.

SHE IS THE DAUGHTER OF TWO RUSSIAN IMMIGRANTS, SO THERE'S AN AUTHENTICITY BUT HER WRITING, ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE AS A FIRST-GENERATION AMERICAN.

AND SO, I JUST RECOGNIZED A REALLY POTENT PLAY, AND IT WASN'T LOST ON ME THAT WE WOULD BE PERFORMING THE PLAY DURING OUR GENERAL ELECTION IN THE UNITED STATES.

I FOUND THAT CORRELATING RUSSIAN POLITICS TO OUR CURRENT POLITICAL CLIMATE HERE, IN THE U.S., ILLUMINATING, SCARY, AND VERY IMPORTANT TO TELL.

>> REALLY, OF COURSE, ESPECIALLY HEADING INTO THIS WEEK, THE AUDIENCE SITTING THERE, BUT THEIR TICKETS.

I HAVE A LINE IN THE BEGINNING WHERE I SAY, ABOUT THIS ELECTION -- I WON'T SAY WHAT IT IS -- ABOUT THIS ELECTION.

YOU CAN JUST FEEL IT, THE ENERGY ANYWAY, BUT PARTICULARLY , YOU CAN FEEL IT FROM THE BEGINNING.

>> YEAH.

GO AHEAD.

>> NEITHER LEADER, OBVIOUSLY -- BEFORE TRUMP'S RISE TO THE POLITICAL SCENE -- AS YOU SAID IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, AS IT APPEARS IN THE WAY WITH PUTIN, BOTH OF THESE -- IN MY OPINION -- AUTHORITARIAN-LEANING LEADERS INFILTRATE THE PLAY.

IT IS VERY EXCITING TO DO A PLAY THAT FEELS THAT OF THE MOMENT.

IT IS A DIALOGUE THAT WE HAVE WITH THE AUDIENCE EVERY NIGHT THAT IS QUITE THRILLING.

, I HAVE TO SAY, AT THE CORE IS REALLY THIS IDEA OF SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER, BEING COURAGEOUS, AS OPPOSED TO FALLING IN LINE, AND A FEELING OF NUMBNESS, THAT THE KREMLIN HAS REALLY ESTABLISHED AND SUCCEEDED AT TAKING HOLD OF A COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, WHICH UNLIKE THE UNITED STATES, WHERE WE MAY BE, ONE COULD ARGUE, TAKE FOR GRANTED OUR FREEDOMS, FREEDOM OF THE PRESS, FAIR ELECTIONS.

RUSSIA, WITH ALL THE CORRUPTION IN THOSE EARLY DAYS, UNDER YELTSIN, THERE WAS HOPE FOR REAL REFORMS AND FREEDOMS THAT MANY HERE TAKE FOR GRANTED, AND THERE IS A SCENE I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW OUR VIEWERS, WHERE THE TWO OF YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT IT IS TO DO WITH THAT MORAL DILEMMA, AS A BOSS, AND HIS EMPLOYEE, AND AMONGST FRIENDS AS WELL.

LET'S PLAY IT.

>>, INTERVIEW, THE KREMLIN'S COMMUNICATION DIRECTOR.

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THAT IS NOT STATE RUN MEDIA.

>> OUR BOSS IS IN AND OUT OF THE COUNTRY AS IT IS.

>> WE ARE STILL GETTING PAYCHECKS USED TO LIVE EDITORIALS.

>> HOW LONG?

HOW LONG BEFORE HE ENDS UP IN LONDON, AND IT IS NOT WORTH THE RISK TO PUBLISH?

>> COULD BE YEARS.

>> IT COULD BE MONTHS.

>> YOU WILL BE SHUT DOWN BY THE GOVERNMENT.

>> GETTING SHUT DOWN IS THE BEST CASE SCENARIO!

THE BEST DON'T MAKE JOKES.

STOP IT!

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!

>> ONE OF YOU, YOU ARE BEING THE VOICE OF REASON HERE.

YOU ARE BEING THE VOICE SEEKING THE TRUTH.

WALK US THROUGH THAT DYNAMIC, AND HOW YOU BOTH EXPERIENCED IT.

LET'S START WITH YOU, FRANCESCO.

>> WELL, SO INTERESTING TO SEE THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, SORRY.

>> I KEEP CALLING YOU RYAN, TOO, BECAUSE THAT IS HOW I SEE YOU.

APOLOGIES.

>> THAT IS FINE.

I LOVE IT.

WHAT I WILL SAY, GOING IN, IS THAT WHAT I HAVE COME TO REALIZE IS THAT HER JOURNEY AND IN THIS QUEST FOR EMPATHY, A QUEST FOR HOW CAN YOU STAY EMPATHETIC, HOW CAN YOU KEEP YOUR HEART OPEN.

SHE HAS A LINE IN NEAR THE END OF THE PLAY, HOW HUMAN CAN YOU BE, HOW MUCH WILL YOU LET YOURSELF FEEL THAT IS LIKE THE ANTITHESIS APATHY, HOW YOU CLOSE DOWN YOUR HEART SO THAT YOU CAN'T TAKE IN THIS HORRIFFIC INFORMATION.

SO, SHE IS WORKING AGAINST THAT ALL THE TIME, AND IT REALLY BRINGS HER TO HER KNEES BY THE END OF THE PLAY.

SHE SORT OF HAS A HUGE MOMENT OF UNRAVELING BECAUSE OF EVENTS THAT HAPPENED TO HER IN THE PLAY, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE EVENTS OF THE REGIME SHE IS TRYING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST.

IN THIS SCENE, REALLY, WHAT IS HAPPENING IS, AS WELL AS TALKING ABOUT CONTINUING TO FACE THESE HORRIBLE TRUTHS IS A FRIENDSHIP AND STARTS GO APART, BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY, VERY CLOSE, LIKE BEST FRIENDS.

THEY ARE LIKE FAMILY TO EACH OTHER, AND, SUDDENLY, HE SAYS, HE IS GOING TO TAKE A DIFFERENT ROUTE, AND THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF THIS RIFT, WHERE SHE FINDS HERSELF, BY THE END OF THE PLAY, EXTREMELY A LOT, AND THAT MAKES THE DECISION HARDER, BUT ALSO, IN A WAY, EASIER FOR HER TO MAKE, BECAUSE SHE FEELS LIKE SHE IS THE ONLY PERSON LEFT DOING THIS.

FOR THAT REASON ALONE, SHE HAS TO DO IT.

SHE IS A MOTHER WHO HAS A DAUGHTER WHO SAYS, PLEASE STOP, AND WATCHING THE DOCUMENTARY ABOUT ANNA -- HER CHILDREN SPEAK ABOUT THAT -- THEY SPEAK ABOUT HER HAVING HAD THOSE CONVERSATIONS, AND SHE CONSIDERED IT AN EXTREME -- AT THE END OF THE DAY, IS AN EXTREME ACT OF COWARDICE TO DROP THAT BALL WHEN YOU ARE HOLDING IT, AND IT IS YOUR TURN YOU HAVE GOT TO KEEP RUNNING WITH IT UNTIL YOU CAN'T ANYMORE.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT IS HARD TO KNOW WHAT THE DECISION IS LIKE, BECAUSE, I DON'T LIVE IN A ROOM -- REGIME LIKE THAT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE A FAMILY AND SAY TO THEM, THIS IS WHAT I MIGHT DO, THIS MIGHT HAPPEN TO ME BUT IN THAT PARTICULAR SCENE, IT'S ABOUT TWO PEOPLE MAKING VERY DIFFERENT DECISIONS ABOUT THE PLACE THAT THEY ARE IN, THAT THEIR COUNTRY IS IN, THAT WORD LIFE.

>> YES.

>> NORBERT, IT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF YOUR LOVE FOR RHEA AND YOUR SYMPATHY.

YOU AGREE WITH HER PURSUIT IN THESE STORIES, AND YOU KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH LIES, BUT YOU ALSO KNOW THAT, AS SO MANY RUSSIANS EXPERIENCED, MORE OR LESS, DECISIONS, THAT YOUR CHARACTER HAD TO, AT A CERTAIN POINT, THAT THEIR OWN SAFETY, THEIR FAMILY'S WELFARE AND ECONOMIC SECURITY, FOR MANY OF THEM, SADLY, MAYBE -- >> YEAH.

>> THAT WAS MORE OF AN IMPORTANT FACTOR.

>> DEFINITELY.

ALSO, THE ASPECT OF THE PLAY, I THINK, IS HOW THE POLITICAL ALWAYS BECOMES PERSONAL.

RIGHT?

A TOXIC LEADER, AUTHORITARIANISM TRICKLES DOWN.

WE ARE SEEING IT IN AMERICA RIGHT NOW.

THIS IS PUTIN PLAY BOOK 101.

IF YOU CAN SO DIVISION, BETWEEN FAMILY MEMBERS, BETWEEN PARENTS AND CHILDREN, IF YOU CAN SEW THAT CONSPIRACY-LADEN, PEER- BASED TYPE OF GOVERNMENT -- RIGHT -- POISONS EVERYTHING.

IT POISONS CIVIC LIFE, IT POISONS INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT THAT SCENE IS ABOUT.

PUTIN'S REGIME HAS MADE IT SO INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS FOR FREE PRESS TO EXIST.

YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE A SIDE.

AND, IT EVENTUALLY DESTROYS THIS VERY LOVING RELATIONSHIP.

ERIKA SAID SOMETHING REALLY INTERESTING ABOUT THE RUSSIAN MIND, BUT THE GENERAL RUSSIAN PSYCHE, AND KIND OF THE POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES.

SHE SAID, WHEN YOU HAVE A SOCIETY THAT HAS BEEN DISILLUSIONED BY THE GOVERNMENT, GENERATION AFTER GENERATION, AFTER GENERATION, IT CREATES A BODY POLITIC THAT IS APATHETIC, MISTRUSTFUL, MISTRUSTFUL OF GOVERNMENT, INSTITUTIONS, A KIND OF A WHOLE SOCIETAL SHRUGGING OF THE SHOULDERS, SAYING, WHAT CAN I DO .

>> POWERLESSNESS.

>> A POWERLESSNESS.

MY CHARACTER IS FEELING THAT IN THAT SCENE.

>> LISTEN, LIKE ERIKA, I, MYSELF, AND A POLITICAL REFUGEE AND IMMIGRANT FROM THE FORMER SOVIET UNION TO THE UNITED STATES.

A LOT OF THIS RESONATED TOO CLOSE TO HOME FOR ME.

YOU PLAYED IT, PORTRAYED IT, BEAUTIFULLY AND MASTERFULLY.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE OUT OF TIME NOW, BUT IT IS A FASCINATING PLAY.

I SAID AS ANYONE WHO CAN GO SEE IT HERE.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THERE IS A CLEAR LINE FROM THE AUTHORITARIAN VLADIMIR PUTIN OF THE EARLY 2000'S FROM THE TOTALITARIAN DICTATOR OF TODAY.

WESTERN SANCTIONS AS HE ROLLS UP TERRITORY IN UKRAINE.

INSIDE UKRAINE, A REAL-LIFE HORROR STORY IS UNFOLDING.

THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN OCCUPIED PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ARE REPORTED TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN BY RUSSIA FOR ADOPTION BY RUSSIAN FAMILIES.

THESE IMAGES ARE FROM TESTS CALLING FOR THEIR RETURN IN BELGIUM LAST YEAR.

NOW, TENNIS PLAYER ELINA SVITOLINA, WHO WAS HERSELF A CHILD IN UKRAINE , NOW AMBASSADOR FOR BRINGING KIDS BACK YOU A, WORKING TO REPATRIATE CHILDREN TAKEN BY RUSSIA.

WE SPOKE WITH HER ABOUT HOW THIS IMPACTS HER LIFE ON AND OFF THE COURT WITH HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> Reporter: WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, ELINA SVITOLINA.

>> HELLO .

>> Reporter: AT THIS MOMENT ESPECIALLY COMING UP STOOD OUT AS A UKRAINIAN PLAYER.

UKRAINIAN PUBLIC PERSON IN THE WEST, ALWAYS SPEAKING UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE BEEN BACK AND FORTH, RECENTLY, TO VISIT FAMILY, AND THE COUNTRY IS OBVIOUSLY AT WAR.

IS IT DIFFERENT, WHAT ARE YOU SEEING NOW WHEN YOU GO BACK COMPARED TO WHEN YOU LEFT?

>> IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT COUNTRY THAT I NOTICED.

SO, OVER THE YEARS OF THE WAR, GOING FOR ALMOST THREE YEARS -- SO, NOW, IT IS EXTREMELY CHALLENGING TIMES FOR MY COUNTRY, AND HALF OF MY FAMILY IS STILL THERE.

HAVE WAS MY UNCLE -- HIS FAMILY IS THERE, MY GRANDMOTHER, STILL IN ODESA.

IT IS TOUGH ON A DAILY BASIS , BECAUSE THEY ARE COMING EVERY DAY, ON A DAILY BASIS.

IT IS VERY TOUGH, MENTALLY, I MUST SAY.

I THINK THEY'RE SPENDING SOME TIME WITH MY GRANDMOTHER, AND I CAN TELL YOU, IT IS VERY, VERY DANGEROUS PLACE TO BE, AND VERY SAD TO SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING USED TO IT.

IT IS VERY STRANGE THING TO SAY, BUT WHAT I NOTICED IS PEOPLE ARE USED TO THE ROCKETS, BEING TWO KILOMETERS FROM THEIR HOMES, AND THIS IS VERY SAD TO SEE HAPPEN.

>> WE SAW YOU GET QUITE EMOTIONAL AT WIMBLEDON THIS SUMMER.

YOU REACHED THE QUARTERFINALS THE SAME DAY AS THERE WAS AN AIRSTRIKE THAT HIT A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL IN KYIV.

TALKING TO YOU ABOUT AN ORGANIZATION YOU HAVE BEEN AND ARE NOW AMBASSADOR FOR, BRING KIDS BACK.

TELL ME, WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF THE CRISIS, WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THESE CHILDREN?

WE KNOW THAT SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN TAKEN, KIDNAPPED, ABDUCTED BY RUSSIA -- INTO RUSSIA -- AND YOUR OWN COUNTRY HAS MADE YOU AN AMBASSADOR ON THIS.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO DO THIS?

WHAT IS THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM?

>> YES.

THIS IS THE PRESIDENTIAL INITIATIVE, CALLED BRING KIDS BACK UA, WHICH TAKES CARE OF THE KIDS THAT HAVE BEEN KIDNAPPED, AND THERE ARE MORE THAN 20,000 KIDS THAT ARE BEING STOLEN FROM UKRAINE, AND KIDS ARE OUR FUTURE.

THEY ARE OUR HOPE, AND THIS IS A BIG DANGER FOR US, UKRAINIANS.

SO, WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WHAT IS IN OUR POWER TO RING THOSE KIDS BACK, TO BRING THEM BACK TO LIFE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEIR FAMILIES.

THEY MUST GET AS THE CAMPS FOR THEIR HEALTH, FOR THEIR EDUCATION, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT THEY ARE THERE, THAT THEY ARE NOT SEEING THEIR FAMILIES, AND SOME OF THEM, THEY HAVE BEEN STOLEN, AND CHANGED THEIR NATIONALITY, THEIR AGE, AND BEING EDUCATED AS RUSSIAN CITIZENS.

SO, THIS CRIMES HAS TO STOP.

THIS IS VERY, VERY CLOSE TOPIC TO MY HEART, AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT I WANTED TO BECOME AMBASSADOR OF THIS INITIATIVE.

>> WE KNOW THAT ABOUT 400 HAVE BEEN RETURNED, BUT USUALLY ONLY THROUGH SORT OF WHISTLEBLOWERS, AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED UKRAINE GET THEM BACK.

LAST WEEK, THE FIRST LADY OF UKRAINE URGED THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO DO MORE.

SHE SAID, THE TAKING OF 19,000 CHILDREN TO RUSSIA IS AN ACT WITNESSED BY THE WORLD I WAS MET WITH INADEQUATE ACTION.

YOU ARE CURRENTLY IN CANADA FOR A CONFERENCE OF FOREIGN MINISTERS .

SOME 40 NATIONS HAVE PLEDGED, YOU KNOW, COOPERATION AND SUPPORT FOR THIS INITIATIVE.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO COME OUT OF THIS CONFERENCE IN CANADA?

>> I WANT TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE ONE MORE TIME.

I FEEL LIKE THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF OTHER STATEMENTS MADE BY OUR FIRST LADY, YOU KNOW, BY THE REPRESENTATIVES, BUT I WANT MORE ACTION.

I WANT MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS ISSUE.

I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE BEEN ASKING, WE HAVE BEEN GETTING A LOT FROM OUR PARTNERS, A LOT OF THEM, BUT ALSO, THE ONE THAT THIS ISSUE GOES UNDER -- >> FINALLY, I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE W-2 THE FINALS, THIS YEAR, IN SAUDI ARABIA, CAUSING CONTROVERSY.

THE GREAT BILLIE JEAN KING SAYS NOTHING CHANGES UNLESS YOU ENGAGE.

OTHERS HAVE BEEN MORE OUTSPOKEN AGAINST GOING TO SAUDI ARABIA.

I SPOKE TO THEM BOTH A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, AND I ASKED MARTINA ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID WE WANTED TO SEE MORE PROGRESS MADE BEFORE WE GOT THERE, BUT AGAIN, THE MONEY WAS NEEDED.

WE WERE HONEST ABOUT IT, LIKE IN SAUDI ARABIA, WE NEEDED MONEY.

WE STAND SUPPORTING THE WOMEN THAT MADE THAT DECISION THAT IS OKAY.

THIS IS WHERE THE LINE IS, AND THEY MIGHT HAVE A DIFFERENT LINE IN THE SAND IS ALL.

>> WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT?

ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE SAUDI ARABIA LOCATION?

>> I FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE HAD A LOT SAID ABOUT THIS.

FOR ME, I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO PROMOTE TENNIS, IT HAS TO GO ALL AROUND THE WORLD, FOR WOMEN'S SPORTS, WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO INTRODUCE THIS SPORT TO SOME COUNTRIES THAT WERE NOT ALLOWED TO DO SPORT, OR HAD A REALLY SMALL ACCESS TO THIS.

SO, I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE FOR THE SPORT TO EVOLVE, AND TO GET MORE GIRLS, GET MORE WOMEN INTO IT.

>> DO YOU THINK IT IS UNFAIR THAT WOMEN GET MORE CRITICISM THAN THE MEN?

THE MEN GO TO SAUDI ARABIA, AND AS MARTINEZ SAID, AND AS BILLIE JEAN HAS SAID, THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE MONEY IN WOMEN'S TENNIS.

THIS IS ONE WAY TO GET IT.

>> YEAH.

I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF WOMEN, IN GENERAL, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO PROMOTE WOMEN'S SPORTS.

I FEEL LIKE THERE IS STILL A HUGE GAP BETWEEN MEN'S SPORT, WOMEN'S SPORTS.

SO, I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO MAKE STEPS, WE HAVE TO MAKE MISTAKES AND LEARN FROM THEM, TRY AGAIN, TRY BETTER, AND WE WILL EVENTUALLY SUCCEED, BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SOME STEPS, AND SOMETIMES, THEY CAN BE ROUGH, BUT FEEL LIKE IT IS BETTER TO DO SOMETHING, AND TRY TO FIND THE RIGHT WAY FOR WOMEN'S SPORT.

>> ELINA SVITOLINA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US .

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> ONLY A FEW DAYS LEFT UNTIL THE U.S. ELECTION, AS YOU KNOW, AND THE EXTREMELY TIGHT RACE BETWEEN HARRIS AND TRUMP IS KEEPING PEOPLE ON THEIR TOES, ESPECIALLY AFTER JANUARY 6th MANY FEAR THE OUTCOME COULD LEAD TO ANOTHER SEISMIC EVENT IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PROFESSOR ROBERT PAYNE, AN EXPERT, JOINING US TO DISCUSS HOW FUTURE ATTACKS COULD BE PREVENTED.

>> ROBERT PAYNE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

YOU HAVE BEEN STUDYING POLITICAL VIOLENCE, ROLLING OUT THESE SURVEYS SINCE 2021, BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, WELL, WHO ARE MORE OPEN TO THE IDEA OF CLINICAL VIOLENCE TO GET WHAT THEY WANT.

WHAT IS THE LATEST SURVEY THAT YOU HAVE, AND WHAT YOU THINK, AS YOU STATED, THERE IS A COMICAL, SERIOUS RISK ANOTHER JANUARY 6th THAT HAPPENED DURING THIS ELECTION CYCLE?

WHY?

>> OUR MOST RECENT SURVEY IS SEPTEMBER, JUST ABOUT A MONTH AGO, SEPTEMBER 16th WHEN IT CAME OUT OF THE FIELD, AND WE FOUND THAT 6% OF AMERICA -- THE EQUIVALENT OF 15 MILLION AMERICAN ADULTS -- SUPPORT THE USE OF FORCE TO RESTORE DONALD TRUMP TO THE PRESIDENCY, AND 8% OF AMERICAN ADULTS SUPPORT THE USE OF FORCE TO PREVENT DONALD TRUMP FROM BECOMING PRESIDENT.

THESE NUMBERS MATTER, BECAUSE SUPPORT FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE CAN MANAGE LONE ACTORS, FOR THEIR OWN PSYCHOSOCIAL REGIONS, ON THE EDGE OF VIOLENCE, OVER THAT EDGE, AND TAKE ACTION, AND THIS CAN HAPPEN BECAUSE THAT SUPPORT FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE I JUST IDENTIFIED OFTEN SHOWS UP IN SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT OFTEN SHOWS UP IN SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS.

SO, THE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN TERRIBLY STABLE OVER THE LAST YEAR, SO, WE SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED WHEN WE SEE VOLATILE ACTORS ATTEMPT TO ASSASSINATE NANCY PELOSI, AS HAPPENED, ATTEMPT TO ASSASSINATE BARACK OBAMA, THE ASSAILANT WHO TRIED TO GET INTO HIS HOUSE WITH GUNS AND WEAPONS IN HIS VEHICLE IN JUNE 2023, OR TWO ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

IN ALL OF THESE CASES, ALTHOUGH THERE IS LOTS OF DETAILS ABOUT THE INDIVIDUALS AND ATTACKERS THAT ARE DIFFERENT, AND IN ALL OF THOSE CASES, THEY WERE SEEKING TO DO WHAT THEY BELIEVE WOULD BE POPULAR FOR THEIR AUDIENCE.

>> PROFESSOR, VIOLENCE HAS BEEN A PART OF THE POLITICAL SYSTEMS.

SO, IF YOU ARE ABLE TO LOOK BACK LONGER FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WHAT IS SO CONCERNED ABOUT IT TODAY?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

THE MOMENT WE ARE IN TODAY IS NOT UNPRECEDENTED IN OUR HISTORY, BUT WE ARE IN A HISTORICALLY FINE PERIOD OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

THOSE CASES I JUST DISCUSSED ARE A CLUSTER, AND THERE ARE MORE.

YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE 1960'S AND '70S, 50 YEARS AGO, TO FIND OTHER HIGH POINTS THAT LOOK LIKE THIS.

WHAT ARE WE IN THIS HISTORICALLY HIGH PERIOD?

AS IN THE 1960'S, PERIODS OF SOCIAL CHANGE AND RADICAL SOCIAL CHANGE OFTEN CORRESPOND WITH PERIODS OF HIGH POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN SOCIETIES.

THAT IS THE COMMON PATTERN, WHAT IS THE SOCIAL CHANGE THAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH TODAY?

WELL, THE BIG, HISTORIC SOCIAL CHANGE IS WE'RE GOING FROM A WHITE MAJORITY TO A WHITE MINORITY, TRULY MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

IN 1990, 77% OF AMERICANS WERE NON-HISPANIC WHITE.

TODAY, THAT NUMBER IS 61%.

IN 10 OR 12 YEARS, THE NUMBER WILL BE 50, THEN 49%.

WE ARE GOING THROUGH THE PERIOD OF TRANSITION.

ABOUT 20 YEARS, STARTED ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO, AND THAT CORRESPONDS WITH THE RISE OF DONALD TRUMP, AND ALSO THE OPPOSITION TO DONALD TRUMP, AND THAT ALSO CORRESPONDS WITH THE RISE OF THIS PERIOD I CALL THE ERA OF VIOLENT POPULISM IN AMERICA, AND THAT ERA OF VIOLENT POPULISM IS, UNFORTUNATELY, LIKELY TO BE WITH US FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, BECAUSE IT IS A CAUSE FROM DONALD TRUMP, BUT HE IS ALSO THE SYMPTOM OF THIS ERA THAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH, AND IT IS NOT SIMPLY A MATTER OF THIS ONE OR THAT ONE, THIS ELECTION OR THAT ELECTION.

THINGS HAVE BEEN GETTING WORSE STEADILY AS WE ARE GOING THROUGH THIS HISTORIC TRANSITION TO A GENUINELY MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

THAT IS ENORMOUS SOCIAL CHANGE.

BIGGER SOCIAL CHANGE THAN THE 1960'S.

>> IS THIS DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT PLAYING OUT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PEOPLE ARE FEELING SO ANXIOUS?

I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY IT LEADS INTO THIS RACIST IDEA OF A GREAT REPLACEMENT THERE.

RIGHT?

I'M WONDERING WHETHER THE SUBSET OF THE POPULATION WHOSE GREATEST ANXIETIES ARE ABOUT BEING REPLACED, IF YOU WILL, ARE THOSE PEOPLE MORE LIKELY TO WANT POLITICAL VIOLENCE?

SAY, THEN PEOPLE WHO MIGHT SEE THE PATTERN, BUT DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO IT AS STRICTLY?

>> INSIDE OF OUR BODY POLITIC TODAY, AS IT IS TOLD YOU, THERE ARE 6% OF AMERICANS THAT SUPPORT THE USE OF FORCE TO RESTORE DONALD TRUMP, AND THEY ALSO HEAVILY BELIEVE IN THAT GREAT REPLACEMENT CONSPIRACY THEORY, AS YOU JUST SAID.

HOWEVER, THE OTHER 8% ARE ALSO SUPPORTING VIOLENCE AGAINST TRUMP.

A WAY TO THINK ABOUT THIS IS THAT YOU HAVE A PORTION ON THE RIGHT WHO WANTS TO SLOW DOWN OR REVERSE THIS TRANSITION TO A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY, AND YOU HAVE A PORTION ON THE LEFT THAT WANTS TO CONTINUE AND ACCELERATE THAT SHIFT FOR FEAR IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

YOU SEE, THE LEFT IS RESPONDING TO THE RISE OF TRUMP, AND IT IS RESPONDING IN NOT JUST, LIKE, WELL, IT IS OKAY IF HE WINS, NO, IT IS RESPONDING IN A WAY THAT IS QUITE SERIOUS IN WAY WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN OUR LIFETIMES, AND THE REASON IS BECAUSE THE FEAR IS, IF TRUMP WINS, THIS WILL ACTUALLY KEEP MINORITIES AS SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS, PRETTY MUCH FOREVER, AND THAT IS A DAUNTING PROSPECT FOR MANY PEOPLE ON THE LEFT.

NOW, THE RISK OF VIOLENCE IS GREATER ON THE RIGHT, ALTHOUGH, WE HAVE SEEN VIOLENCE ON THE LEFT.

THE REASON IT IS GREATER IS BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP.

HE HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT HE IS WILLING AND WILL STOKE VIOLENCE TO EGG ON A MOB, TO SEIZE THE CAPITOL, TO STOP THE CERTIFICATION OF AN ELECTION THAT GOES AGAINST HIM.

NO OTHER POLITICAL LEADER IN OUR HISTORY, NEARLY 250 YEAR HISTORY, EVER DID THAT.

SO, NOT THAT THERE IS, ESSENTIALLY, A COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL SO FAR -- YOU CAN THINK OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE AS LIKE A WILDFIRE.

THEIR UNIQUE COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL -- THAT IS HOW WE KNOW WE ARE IN WILDFIRE SEASON.WE CAN MEASURE THE CHANGE IN SIZE OF DRY COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL, MEASURED QUITE SCIENTIFICALLY, BUT WE CAN'T MEASURE, SCIENTIFICALLY, THE TRUTHS BECAUSE THOSE ARE ON INSPECTED LIGHTNING STRIKES, CAMPFIRES LEFT UNATTENDED, WE ARE CIGAR BUTTS THROWN OUT OF THE WINDOW.

IN THE CASE OF THESE, TRIGGERS, SOME LIKE DONALD TRUMP, WHO IS ACTUALLY TRIGGERING AND SETTING OFF AND IGNITING THAT COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL.

THE MOST EXTREME CASE, OF COURSE, WAS JANUARY 6th, WHERE HE BROUGHT THE COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL TO WASHINGTON, D.C., AND THEN HE THREW MATCHES RIGHT INTO THE CROWD TO IGNITE THEM AGAINST THE CAPITOL, AND ONCE THEY WERE IN THE CAPITOL, HE IGNITED THEM FURTHER TO ATTACK HIS OWN VICE PRESIDENT, MIKE PENCE.

SO, WE ARE IN A WILDFIRE SEASON .

THE MOST DANGEROUS TRIGGERS ARE ON THE RIGHT, BUT WE JUST NEED TO RECOGNIZE, IT IS A WILDFIRE SEASON WHERE THERE ARE COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL ON BOTH SIDES.

>> TO CARRY THIS ANALOGY FURTHER, WE HAVE AN INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE WHERE THERE IS A SIGN THAT SAYS, WILDFIRE SEASON, WILDFIRE RISK, EXTREME, HIGH, LOW.

RIGHT?

IT IS WHAT ABOUT IN THE OPEN.

WE UNDERSTAND IT.

WE DON'T NECESSARILY SEEM TO HAVE THAT SORT OF IN THE STRUCTURE AND TO OUR CONVERSATION.

WHAT CAN WE DO IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM TO CREATE A VEHICLE FOR NOT JUST NEED OPINIONS TO BE SHARED, BUT FOR THEM TOGETHER -- TO GATHER WEIGHT?

>> WE KNOW INCENDIARY MATERIAL CAN COMBUST, BUT CALMING RHETORIC IS THE CALLING WHERE THEY CAN HELP CALM DOWN THE OF FIRE.

WHERE THE CALLING RHETORIC SHOULD COME FROM HIS OUR SENIOR POLITICAL LEADERS.

WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE HIS SENIOR LEADERS WOULD SAY, ALL POLITICAL VIOLENCE, NOT JUST VIOLENCE BY THE OTHER SIDE, BUT ALL POLITICAL VIOLENCE IS ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, AND ANTI- AMERICAN, AND A LEADER WHO HAS BEEN DOING THAT MOST IS PRESIDENT BIDEN.

FOR SEVERAL YEARS, WE HAVE FOUND , IN OUR DATA, STRONG SUPPORT FOR CLINICAL VIOLENCE TO RESTORE A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO ABORTION.

10% OF THE PUBLIC SUPPORTS THAT.

THAT IS A LOT OF PEOPLE, 30 MILLION PEOPLE.

WELL, WHY DON'T WE SEE MORE VIOLENCE IN THAT REGARD?

ONE OF THE BIG REASONS IS PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN DOING IS, FROM THE DAY OF THE DOBBS DECISION, JUNE 22nd, 2022, WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN DOING IS CONDEMNING THE DOBBS DECISION, BUT ALSO HAVING BIG, FAT PARAGRAPHS THAT CONDEMN POLITICAL VIOLENCE, EVEN IF IT COMES FROM THE LEFT, AND HE THEN SAYS, TAKE THAT ANGER YOU ALL FEEL, REDIRECT IT AWAY FROM VIOLENCE AND TOWARD VOTING.

NOT TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE TO NOT BE ANGRY, HE IS TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE TO REDIRECT THAT ANGER INTO VOTING, AND CHANGE THE RESULT IN THE DEMOCRATIC WAY.

WHILE THAT IS EXTREMELY VALUABLE -- AND HE HAS BEEN SAYING THAT NOT JUST ABOUT THE ISSUE OF ABORTION -- BUT HE ALSO, IN HIS OVAL OFFICE ADDRESS RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST TRUMP ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT, SAID THE VERY SAME THING FOR 15 MINUTES IN FRONT OF THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, WHERE HE CONDEMNED ALL POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

>> FOR OUR AUDIENCE, THIS IS NOT JUST A CAUTION IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WINS.

IT SEEMS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE UNDERLYING TREND YOU DOCUMENT IT THROUGH YOUR SURVEYS, IS MORE STRUCTURAL IN NATURE, THAT WE NEED TO PREPARE AS A COUNTRY FOR THE PROSPECT OF ALMOST AN INCREASED SEASON OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE THAT MAY SHOW ITSELF IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE WORKING OUT OF WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT WHEN THERE IS SIGNIFICANT SUPPORT FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN THE BODY POLITIC, THESE VOLATILE ACTORS THAT WILL THEN BE NUDGED OVER THE EDGE, AND THIS IS HAPPENING MORE, MORE, AND MORE, AND WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE REACHES OF THIS ARE ACTUALLY LOCATED IN THIS STRUCTURAL CHANGE IN OUR COUNTRY.

IT IS ONE OF THE MOST DRAMATIC SOCIAL CHANGES THAT ANY COUNTRY HAS GONE THROUGH ALREADY.

AND THIS IS NOT -- THIS CHANGE TO A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY -- THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN IN A YEAR, WE ARE GOING THROUGH THE 20- YEAR TRANSITION PERIOD NOW, ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH IT, AND THIS CORRESPONDS, STARTING 10 YEARS AGO, STARTING TO REALLY SEE THE CUSP OF THE CHANGE.

THAT IS WHEN DONALD TRUMP CAME ON THE SCENE, METEORIC RISE, AND ALSO, THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION BECAME METEORIC.

YES, THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP THE FOUR IN THE '90S, PAT BUCHANAN, ALMOST THE EXACT SAME RHETORIC, BY THE WAY, AND ALSO, THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN AROUND.

BUT THOSE ISSUES HAVE DOMINATED OUR POLITICS THE LAST 10 YEARS, AND THAT IS HAPPENING, NOT SIMPLY BECAUSE OF SOCIAL MEDIA, IT IS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF THIS STRUCTURAL CHANGE WE ARE GOING THROUGH AS A COUNTRY.

SO, WE HAVE TO PREPARE FOR THIS, AND WE NEED OUR POLITICAL LEADERS TO STEP UP AND RECOGNIZE THAT PART OF THEIR LEADERSHIP NOW IS CONDEMNING POLITICAL VIOLENCE WHEREVER IT COMES FROM, EVEN IF IT COMES FROM THEIR OWN CONSTITUENTS.

>> WHEN YOU TALK TO THESE POLICE CHIEFS AND AUTHORITIES, WHAT YOU TELL THEM?

RIGHT NOW, WE GOT THE FBI, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SENDING WARNINGS, SAYING, DOMESTIC TERRORISTS WANT TO SEW VIOLENCE THROUGHOUT THE SELECTION PROCESS.

WE HAVE SEEN BALLOT BOXES CATCHING FIRE FROM INCENDIARY DEVICES IN OREGON AND WASHINGTON.

HOW DO YOU TELL PEOPLE TO PREPARE?

>> THE KEY ELEMENTS IDENTIFY OUR WHAT WILL DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS, AND WILL DETERMINE THE OUTCOME?

OBVIOUSLY, THE VOTERS ITSELF, AND ALSO, THE ELECTION OFFICIALS.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE THREATS AGAINST THE ELECTION OFFICIALS, FOR EXAMPLE, THESE AREN'T DISCONNECTED, ISOLATED EVENTS FROM ALL THOSE OTHER ACTS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE I JUST POINTED OUT.

THEY ARE JUST ANOTHER DIMENSION OF THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE AROUND THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS, AND SPECIFICALLY, AROUND THE OUTCOMES RELATED TO TRUMP, BECAUSE TRUMP ISN'T JUST A POLITICAL LEADER.

HE IS REPRESENTING FOR NOT ONLY HIS PEOPLE, BUT THE FOLKS WHO DISAGREE WITH TRUMP.

THIS RETURN TO -- KEEPING FROZEN IN TIME -- THIS WHITE MAJORITY DEMOCRACY, AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, YOU CAN EXPECT THE VIOLENCE WILL BE VERY FOCUSED AROUND WHAT WILL DETERMINE HIS SUCCESS OR FAILURE, AND THAT IS RESULTING IN THE MAIL AND BALLOT BOXES THAT ARE NOW BEING BURNED -- IT IS NOT LOCAL.

WHAT IS LOCAL IS NATIONAL.

AND SO, THAT IS SOMETHING I'VE BEEN WARNING ABOUT IN DETAIL, WITH MANY HUNDREDS OF THESE OFFICIALS, AND HE ORGANIZATIONS THEMSELVES NOW ARE REACTING.

>> LAST ELECTION, TOOK SEVERAL DAYS TO START BEFORE THERE WERE KIND OF CALLS BY MEDIA INSTITUTIONS AND SO FORTH.

IF THIS ELECTION IS JUST AS CLOSE, WHAT HAPPENS IN THAT PERIOD, WHERE THERE IS AN UNCERTAINTY?

>> THE UNCERTAINTY, AS YOU ARE COMPLAINING, THAT WORKS AGAINST US AND FOR MORE VIOLENCE, BECAUSE THAT UNCERTAINTY EQUATES TO THE POSSIBILITY OF THIS EVEN PROBABILITY -- OF MORE TRIGGERS.

SO, THOSE TRIGGERS COULD COME WITH MORE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

FOR EXAMPLE.

WILL THERE BE CONSPIRACY THEORIES EVEN IF THE ELECTION IS COMPLETELY CLEAR?

VERY LIKELY SO.

THIS IS ALSO WHY IT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A TRANSPARENCY AS WE GO FORWARD, AND THIS IS ALSO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT THIS TIME AROUND, THIS ELECTION, THAT WE RECOGNIZE THAT THE SECURITY OF THE CENTRAL VALID TABULATION CENTERS AFTER NOVEMBER 5th ARE SELF -- THIS, ITSELF, IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

I MEAN, THE PHYSICAL SECURITY, NOT THE CYBERSECURITY.

WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT, LAST TIME, 2020, THE MAIN VIOLENCE OCCURRED JANUARY 6th, PRECISELY BECAUSE IT HAPPENED LAST TIME ON JANUARY 6th, WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT WE MIGHT CALL A JANUARY 6th TYPE EVENT HAPPENING MORE AT THE STATE LEVEL, OR BAD ACTORS SEEKING TO NOT JUST HARM ELECTION OFFICIALS, BUT PHYSICALLY DESTROY BALLOTS IN STATES WHERE THE ELECTION IS DECIDED BY TWO PERCENTAGE OR TWO, BECAUSE IF YOU CAN DESTROY, SAY, 2 OR 3% OF THE PHYSICAL BALLOTS IN A STATE, SAY, PENNSYLVANIA, AND IF PENNSYLVANIA IS THIS POSITIVE OF THE ELECTION, SEE HOW YOU CAN THROW THE WHOLE ELECTION INTO CHAOS.

SO, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT, THIS YEAR, IS A PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE PROBLEM.

>> PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, ROBERT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THANK YOU.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT BUT WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT?

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