November 5, 2024

>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> ELECTION DAY IN AMERICA AS THE WORLD WAITS WITH FETID BREATH , WE LOOK AT A BIG ISSUE RARELY MENTIONED IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

TODAY'S POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

>> PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INTERESTED AND NOW THEY ARE WORRYING AND CONCERNED ABOUT AN ELECTED POWER, UNCHECKED POWER AND THE FACT THAT THIS MIGHT BE COMING FOR AMERICA.

>> AS AMERICA VOTES A LOOK AT UNELECTED POWER REVISITING MY CONVERSATION WITH BIOGRAPHER ROBERT CARO, 50 YEARS SINCE HE EXAMINED ROBERT MOSES WHO BUILT AND EVEN TRAMPLED OVER NEW YORK.

>> YOU ARE PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE FACE OF THE EARTH WHEN YOU'RE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PEOPLE CAN'T RESIST THAT POWER.

>> THE HIGHEST CALLING , WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO DAVID RUBENSTEIN ABOUT HIS INTERACTIONS WITH MOST LIVING PRESIDENTS AND WHAT IT MEANS TO LEAD AMERICA.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT , JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION TO VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

NO EXAGGERATION TO SAY THAT TODAY THE EYES OF THE WORLD ARE ON THE UNITED STATES.

IN THE COMING HOURS OR DAYS WE WILL LEARN WHO WILL BE THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY AND OF COURSE, THERE'S ANOTHER NATION VYING FOR THE TITLE, CHINA.

THE MAJOR ISSUES OF THIS CAMPAIGN, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, IMMIGRATION, THE ECONOMY AND ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA, AMERICA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA WAS NOT AMONG THEM AND NO MATTER WHO THE NEXT PRESIDENT IS, COMPETITION BETWEEN THE WORLD'S TWO BIGGEST ECONOMIES AND MILITARIES WILL CONTINUE.

MANY ANALYSTS AND EXPERTS SAY THE U.S.-CHINA RIVALRY WILL DOMINATE THIS CENTURY AND PERHAPS EVEN BE DECIDED BY THE END OF THIS DECADE AND SO WHAT ARE THE POSSIBLE SCENARIOS AHEAD IN THE FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED WORLD?

FORMER DEPUTY SENIOR DIRECTOR OF CHINA AND TAIWAN ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, HE'S THE AUTHOR OF THE LONG GAME.

CHINA'S GRAND STRATEGY TO DISPLACE AMERICAN ORDER.

HE JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU SAY AND LIKE-MINDED EXPERTS SAY, CHINA IS MOST DEFINITELY IN A BATTLE OF COMPETITION AND IN IT TO WIN AND TO RIVAL THE UNITED STATES.

YOU LAY OUT SOME AREAS WHICH THEY ARE VERY FAR.

LET'S HEAR THE STAKES, WHAT ARE THE STAKES OF BEIJING'S EFFORTS TO DISPATCH THE U.S. AS A SUPERPOWER?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES UNDERSTAND THIS IS A DECISIVE DECADE IN THE COMPETITION WITH CHINA AND IF THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T TAKE URGENT ACTION THAT COULD FALL BEHIND CHINA TECHNOLOGICALLY AND BECOME DEPENDENT ECONOMICALLY OR BE DEFEATED BY CHINA MILITARILY.

THIS DECADE REALLY COUNTS AND THE STAKES ARE HIGH.

IN SECTOR AFTER SECTOR ON THE ECONOMIC AND TECH SIDE THEY ARE MAKING MAJOR GAINS.

THERE'S A REAL QUESTION ABOUT THE UNITED STATES AND WHAT THEY WILL DO IF IT FALLS BEHIND.

TAKE AUTOMOTIVE AS THE MOST RECENT EXAMPLE.

THE STAKES ARE ENORMOUS FOR WASHINGTON AND FOR THE AVERAGE AMERICAN CITIZEN.

CAN THE U.S. BASICALLY MAINTAIN ITS POSITION AS CHINA PUTS PRESSURE ON EVERY FOUNDATIONAL ELEMENT OF AMERICAN POWER.

>> SOME WOULD SAY WHAT ARE YOU KIDDING?

AMERICA IS THE BIGGEST ECONOMY, BIGGEST MILITARY, THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN TERMS OF ALLIES IN THE WORLD BUT YOU, I WANT TO KNOW THE FACTS THAT WOULD MAKE YOU SAY THAT.

YOU HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, IT IS THE FIRST GEOPOLITICAL RIVAL TO SURPASS 70% OF U.S. GDP.

WHAT ABOUT INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY OR SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT?

HOW MUCH FURTHER AHEAD ARE THEY?

>> IT'S ABOUT THE RATE OF CHANGE.

LET'S LOOK AT A FEW KEY INDICATORS.

CHINA IS 70% OF AMERICA GDP.

NO AMERICAN RIVAL HAS REALLY REACH THAT NUMBER.

YOU LOOK AT THE MANUFACTURING CAPABILITY.

THEY ACCOUNT FOR MAYBE 35% OF GLOBAL MANUFACTURING.

THE LAST TIME A COUNTRY HAD THAT KIND OF CONCENTRATION OF GLOBAL MANUFACTURING WAS US AFTER WORLD WAR II AND YOU LOOK AT TECHNOLOGY.

SECTOR AFTER SECTOR YOU SEE THEM PUSH THE EDGE.

AUTO COMPANIES, ELECTRIC VEHICLES PROBABLY BETTER THAN MOST COMPANIES AROUND THE WORLD OR BETTER THAN ANY OTHER ELECTRIC COMPANIES AROUND THE WORLD AND YOU LOOK AT NUCLEAR REACTORS, FOURTH-GENERATION NUCLEAR REACTORS, NEW TECHNOLOGY AND THEY WILL BUILD IT AT SCALE WHICH CREATES A POSSIBILITY THEY WILL HAVE GREATER POWER GENERATION NOT IN ONLY TOTAL BUT ON A CAPITAL BASIS AND TAKE SOLAR PANELS OR BATTERIES AND AGAIN YOU SEE CHINA GOING AHEAD.

A LOT OF REPORTS ARE SAYING THEY HAD THIS PLANNED MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO.

THEY INVEST TO LEAD IN 10 KEY GLOBAL SECTORS AND IS THE REPORT CARD COMES AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE DOING WELL SO THAT'S THE ECONOMIC STAKE PUTTING ASIDE THE MILITARY COMPETITION WHERE THERE ARE CHALLENGES OF THE TAIWAN STRAIT WHERE IF THINGS GO WRONG IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIED PARTNERS.

>> I'M GOING TO GET DEEPER INTO WHAT OTHERS SAY ABOUT CHINA BEING IN SOME ECONOMIC DECLINE BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THEN, THERE'S BEEN A GENERATIONS LONG DEBATE OVER WHETHER TO DEAL WITH CHINA BY ENGAGEMENT OR BY COMPETITION OR INDEED NOW, BY SOURCE OF UNITED TO ISOLATE, ALLIES AND BLOCKS BEING FORMED TO ISOLATE CHINA.

WHAT HAPPENED TO ENGAGEMENT?

WHY WAS THE GLOBALIZATION PROJECT WRONG?

IF YOU THINK IT WAS.

>> I THINK ENGAGEMENT WAS PREMISED ON THE THEORY THAT ESSENTIALLY THE U.S. HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE TO PEOPLE CONNECTION WITH CHINA AND A LOT OF ECONOMIC CONNECTION TO CHINA AND WAS TRYING TO SORT OF ENGAGED CHINA DIPLOMATICALLY AS WELL AND EVENTUALLY THEY WOULD GRADUALLY CONVERGE WITH THE U.S. SYSTEM.

IT WOULD BE A FULL ON LIBERAL DEMOCRACY BUT A LOT LESS ILLIBERAL TODAY CLOSER TO SINGAPORE AND THE PROJECT ULTIMATELY DID NOT BEAR OUT.

THE HOPE WAS THAT IF YOU BROUGHT THEM THE WT THOUGH IF YOU LOOK AT THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY, THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THAT POSSIBILITY AND TOOK STEPS TO MAKE SURE THEY COULD STAY AS THEY WERE.

THIS AUTOCRATIC SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT SO ENGAGEMENT IN THIS WAY MADE A BET THAT DIDN'T PAY OFF.

THE RESULT HAS BEEN THERE'S THIS RECONSIDERATION OF APPROACH AND WHAT YOU'VE SEEN OVER THESE LAST SIX OR SEVEN YEARS IS THE MOVEMENT FROM ENGAGEMENT TO SOMETHING NEW AND A DISAGREEMENT ABOUT WHAT THE NEW THING IS.

FUNDAMENTALLY WE ARE CHARACTERIZING WHAT IS NEW, COMPETITION, THAT THEY SHOULD PUT THEIR INTEREST FIRST.

IT'S THE IDEA THAT WE HAVE A DIFFERENCE OF INTERESTS WHICH REQUIRE THE U.S. TO TAKE CERTAIN STEPS THAT CHINA MAY NOT ALWAYS LIKE.

>> ONE OF THE BIG COMPLAINTS ABOUT GLOBALIZATION OR OUTSOURCING IS THAT THIS AFFECTS THE AMERICAN WORKER.

SO YOU CREDIT DONALD TRUMP WITH HAVING BEEN, I GUESS THE FIRST PRESIDENT TO REALLY PUT COMPETITION ON THE TABLE AND YET, YOU SAY YEAH, IT WAS A GREAT IDEA OR A POSITIVE THING BUT, WHAT IS THE BUTT?

>> IN HIS CAMPAIGN OF 2015 ARTICULATED THIS CRITIQUE OR THIS IDEA THAT PERHAPS INTERNATIONAL TRADING SYSTEMS OR THE TERMS OF TRADE WITH CHINA WERE NOT SERVING AMERICAN INTEREST AND WE ARE SEEING THE INDUSTRIALIZATION ACROSS THE BOARD BUT THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO WE DO NEXT?

HIS APPROACH WAS TO RAISE TARIFFS ON CHINA AND YOU SEE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CONTINUED ELEMENTS OF THIS .

THE TARIFF INCREASE ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WHICH WAS MORE TAILORED THAN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BUT THE POINT OF THE INCREASE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS TO GET A DEAL WHICH WOULD ALLOW AMERICA TO DO SOMETHING MEMBERS OF BOTH PARTIES WANT TO DO, REBUILD AS MANY FACTORING SECTORS AND THE PROBLEM IN PART AND I HATE TO PUT IT THIS WAY WAS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SO EAGER FOR A TRADE DEAL HE TOOK A BAD DEAL.

HE WANTED THE DEAL AHEAD OF THE CAMPAIGN AND IT'S ONE THAT ALLOWED THE UNITED STATES TO KEEP IMPORTING CHINESE MANUFACTURING GOODS.

THEY WOULD NOT CHANGE THEIR UNFAIR PRACTICES AND AMERICA WOULD EXPORT COMMODITIES TO CHINA AND THAT WAS THE PHASE 1 TRADE DEAL AND THAT COMMODITIES FOR MANUFACTURED GOODS IS A TIME-TESTED RECIPE FOR INDUSTRIAL DECLINE SO THE DIAGNOSIS WAS RIGHT.

THE STAFF DIDN'T WANT TO DEAL BUT ULTIMATELY HE THOUGHT THE DEAL WAS IN HIS OWN INTEREST SO IT'S THE ONE HE PURSUED SO YOU SEE THAT PATTERN ACROSS A LOT OF THESE KEY ISSUES WITH THE BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS BUT HE TAKES HIS OWN APPROACH OUTSIDE OF THAT NORM.

>> SO AGAIN, THE CONSENSUS , WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE RIGHT WAY NOT TO SQUANDER WHAT TRUMP STARTED OFF BY DOING?

WHAT HAVE BEEN THE RIGHT DEAL OF THE RIGHT STEP?

>> THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT APPROACH HERE, A MORE TAILORED SET OF TARIFFS BECAUSE NOT EVERYTHING ON MANUFACTURED PRODUCT IN CHINA IS A CONCERN TO WORKERS OR AMERICAN INDUSTRY.

PUTTING TARIFFS ON EVERYTHING COULD BE INFLATIONARY SO THERE'S A CALIBRATION THAT COULD HAVE BEEN THERE AND MORE FUNDAMENTALLY THAN THAT, THE FOCUS OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WAS ON GETTING CHINA TO CHANGE ITS A POLICY APPROACH WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FOCUS OF THE PHASE 1 TRADE DEAL RATHER THAN SAYING WE ACCEPT THE DEAL AS LONG AS YOU BUY THE COMMODITIES.

ONCE WE ACCEPTED A DEAL WITH THEM WE LOST OUR ABILITY TO SUSTAIN THE CASE ON INDUSTRIAL POLICY.

THIS WAS FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO BUT THE POINT IS IN A SECOND POSSIBLE TRUMP TERM WILL THERE BE A DESIRE TO STRIKE A QUICK DEAL AGAIN OR WILL HE STAY THE COURSE AND PUSH HARDER FOR THE CHANGES ON INDUSTRIAL POLICY THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO SEE WHICH WOULD GIVE OUR MANUFACTURERS A BETTER CHANCE TO COMPETE?

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN CHINA SOUGHT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM AS AN ACCELERANT OF WHAT THEY BELIEVED TO BE AMERICAN DECLINE AND YET PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS ADMINISTRATION DID CONTINUE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME TARIFF REGIME IN THE SAME ISOLATION OF CHINA.

>> I WOULD NOT SAY THE BIDEN APPROACH IS ABOUT ISOLATING CHINA.

THE GROUTING OF THEIR APPROACHES IN THE AMERICAN INTEREST.

THEY HAVE CERTAIN INTERESTS LIKE MAKING SURE THE ECONOMY DELIVERS FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS OR THAT WE LEAD IN TECHNOLOGY AND DETER CHINA FROM USING FORCE IN ASIA .

THESE INTERESTS ARE WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS PROSECUTING WHICH ISN'T THE SAME AS CONTAINMENT.

CHINA IS TOO BIG TO BE CONTAINED IS NOT TO SAY THAT THE CASES AT THAT THEY SHOULDN'T COMPETE WHERE THEY NEED TO COMPETE TO SECURE THEIR INTERESTS.

I WOULD NOTE THERE'S MORE BIPARTISANSHIP ON CHINA POLICY THAN PEOPLE REALIZE MANY OF THE STEPS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, SOME OF THEM WERE BUILT ON BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED STAYED ON IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND KEPT WORKING WITH CHINA.

CONGRESS PASSED LEGISLATION TO ADVANCE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S STEPS ON CHINA ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS.

THE KEY DIFFERENCE IS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR SECOND TERM ARE YOU GOING TO SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CHINA POLICY OR THE CHINA POLICY OF HIS STAFF?

IT'S THE BIPARTISAN WAY THAT WE DESCRIBED IT.

THE POLICY OF TRUMP HIMSELF COULD BE OUTSIDE OF THE NORM WHICH IS THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION AS WE APPROACH THE SECOND HALF OF THE DECISIVE DECADE.

>> THE NEXT QUESTION IS, SO WHAT HAPPENS UNDER A HARRIS ADMINISTRATION?

I KNOW YOU'RE NOT AN ADVISOR BUT YOU COULD TELL FROM POTENTIALLY THE WAY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT SHE WAS PART OF HAS ACTED.

>> I CANNOT SPEAK WITH AUTHORITY ON WHAT THEY WOULD DO BUT WHAT I THINK I COULD SAY IS VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WAS A CRITICAL PART OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATIONS ASIA AND CHINA POLICY SHE WAS INVOLVED WITH KEY MEETINGS WITH JUST ABOUT EVERY KEY LEADER.

SHE MADE SEVERAL TRIPS WITH THE REGION.

SHE HELD THE FIRST-EVER SORT OF LEADER LEVEL MEETING BETWEEN THE U.S., JAPAN, AND THE PHILIPPINES AND ORGANIZED LEADERS AT ONE OF THOSE SUMMITS AFTER THEY LAUNCHED A MISSILE SO THERE'S A LOT OF DEEP EXPERIENCE AND IT SUGGESTS A FOUNDATIONAL ELEMENT SAYS THEY STAND WITH PARTNERS AND PROSECUTE THEIR INTERESTS AND INVEST IN DETERRENCE AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE SEE IT THE SAME WAY.

THEY WANT THOSE KINDS OF POLICIES.

IN A SECOND TRUMP TERM COULD THEY KIND OF PUSH THOSE POLICIES FORWARD OR WILL THEY TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

THOSE ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS AND DIFFERENCES WE MIGHT SEE IN THE TIME AHEAD.

>> OBVIOUSLY THE CHIPS ACT ABOUT THE SEMICONDUCTOR YEARS HAS BEEN VIEWED BIPARTISAN WAY AS A SUCCESSFUL PIECE OF LEGISLATION UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

TRUMP HAS SET ON THE TRAIL HE DOESN'T LIKE IT AND WANTS TO REPEAL IT SO DID MIKE JOHNSON THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE RECENTLY.

I EXPECT WE PROBABLY WILL BUT WE HAVE NOT DEVELOPED THAT PART OF OUR AGENDA YET HE SAYS WALK THE COMMENTS BACK SO HOW DAMAGING WOULD BE TO REVEAL THE CHIPS ACT?

>> I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY DAMAGING AND THIS GOES BACK TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHAT WAS THEIR APPROACH?

IT WASN'T ABOUT CONTAINMENT BUT ABOUT INVESTING THE AMERICAN STRENGTH AT HOME AND ALIGNING ON THAT BASIS AND COMPETING WITH CHINA SO ON THE INVESTMENT SIDE, THE UNITED STATES IS DEPENDENT ON THE IMPORT OF SEMICONDUCTORS FROM ASIA, FROM TAIWAN IN PARTICULAR THE IDEA IS THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO INTO DENIES THE CAPABILITY.

THE CHIPS ACT IS A CRITICAL INGREDIENT IN THAT APPROACH AND WITHOUT IT, WE WON'T BE ABLE TO BRING BACK CHIP MANUFACTURING SO THE IDEA THAT WE COULD REPEAL IT OR UNDERMINE IT IS DEVASTATING FROM THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO INCREASE THE AMERICAN COMPETITIVE POSITION AND A FEW WEEKS AGO WE FOUND OUT THAT TSMC THE TAIWANESE COMPANY MAKING CHIPS WITH THE CHIPS ACT SUPPORT WAS ABLE TO BASICALLY AT AN AMERICAN PLANT EXCEED THE YIELDS IT GETS ON THE CHIPS AT THE PLANT WHICH MEANS WERE NOT ONLY MAKING STUFF IN AMERICA BUT WE ARE MAKING A BETTER THAN EXPECTED AND WITHOUT THIS ACT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE AND YOU ENTRENCH THE DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN SUPPLY CHAINS WHICH IS DANGEROUS AND NOT AN AMERICAN INTEREST.

>> THE NARRATIVE IS THAT IS POTENTIALLY ABOUT TO BECOME THE DOMINANT POWER BUT OTHERS SAY LOOK AT THE ECONOMY THERE.

IT'S BEEN STUMBLING A LITTLE BIT OR MAYBE IT HASN'T.

LOOK AT THE HOUSING BUBBLE, LOOK AT THIS AND THAT.

WHAT'S THE TRUTH?

>> THE WAY THAT THE PRESIDENT THERE LOOKS AT IT, HE'S NOT FOCUSING ON THE INDICATORS HE SEES TECHNOLOGY AS A CRITICAL PART OF MAKING CHINA POWERFUL AGAIN.

A WORLD THAT'S GONE THROUGH MULTIPLE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTIONS.

STEAM POWER WHICH LED TO THE RISE OF GREAT BRITAIN.

MASS MANUFACTURING, THE THIRD REVOLUTION SUSTAINING THE RISE OF AMERICA.

WE ARE IN THE FOURTH INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, WHO WINS THIS WILL SET THE TABLE GEOPOLITICALLY AND HE'S MAKING A BET THAT THEY COULD SLOW DOWN ECONOMICALLY BUT THEY ARE MAKING A LONG-TERM INVESTMENT TO WIN THE TECHNOLOGY AND THAT THEIR COMPANIES WITH SUPPORT COULD STAY SOLID LONGER THAN WESTERN COMPANIES CAN.

IT IS A BET THAT IS IMPERILED APART FROM THE MICROECONOMIC CHALLENGES WE FACE.

>> THERE'S SO MUCH TO SET UP TO BE SAID ABOUT CHINA AND ITS HUMAN RIGHTS -- ITS POLICY ON WHAT IT MIGHT DO AROUND THE WORLD IF IT BECOMES THE DOMINANT POWER BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MILITARY POWER WE TOUCHED ON EARLIER?

DO YOU BELIEVE IF CHINA IS STRUGGLING AND IF AS SOME PEOPLE SAY IT IS PEAKING, IS THIS A DANGEROUS TIME?

IS TAIWAN AT RISK FROM CHINESE POWER GRAB?

>> THE ONE QUESTION IS DOES CHINA BELIEVE IT IS PEAKING .

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY IT'S POWER IS PEAKING BUT I'M NOT SURE WE COULD BE CONFIDENT.

XI JINPING IS MAKING A BIG BET ON THE FUTURE AND IT'S PAID OFF.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT IT'S COME OUT BY BLOOMBERG OR SENATOR MARCO RUBIO'S COMMITTEE AS WELL AS BY THE THINK TANKS IN WASHINGTON SHOWING ON EACH SECTOR CHINA TECHNOLOGICALLY IS DOING WELL SO WE TAKE THAT QUESTION TO THE MILITARY SOME SAY CHINA BELIEVES IT IS PEAKING AND WILL ACT NOW AND THINKS IN THE FUTURE IT WILL BE HARDER FOR THEM TO REACT AND I'M NOT SURE IF THEY THINK THEY ARE DOING WELL THAT THE SAME LOGIC WILL HOLD.

IT DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME PRESSURE TO TAKE ACTION TODAY.

LOOKING AT THE LAST 10 YEARS YOU MIGHT HAVE A DIFFERENT READ THAN THE WESTERN ECONOMISTS ON ITS TRAJECTORY AND YOU MIGHT THINK THINGS ARE GOING BETTER FOR YOU THAN OTHERS AND EVEN IF YOU AREN'T SURE YOU COULD NOT FULLY ADMIT CHINA COULD BE FACING HEADWINDS.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING ON THE BINGO CARD FOR THEIR COMMUNIST PARTY OFFICIALS SO ALL THAT SUSTAINS THE IDEA WE THINK THAT THEY ARE PEAKING BUT IF THEY DON'T IT MAY NOT AFFECT THEIR BEHAVIOR THE SAME WAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANALYSIS.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> WITH THAT IN MIND AS WE AWAIT RESULTS OF THE ELECTION, LET'S LOOK AT A DIFFERENT KIND OF POWER, THE UNALIKE IT KIND WHERE MONEY AND INFLUENCE RULE.

50 YEARS AGO, THE GREAT WRITER AND HISTORIAN, ROBERT CARO PUBLISHED HIS FIRST MANUAL OPUS, THE POWERBROKER, A 1300 PAGE BIOGRAPHY OF THE MASTER BUILDER ROBERT MOSES WHO FOR DECADES WIELDED ENORMOUS POWER OVER NEW YORK'S PUBLIC WORKS.

THIS UNLIKELY BLOCKBUSTER IS A CULTURAL ICON SELLING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF COPIES AND EVEN BECOMING A HIT ON TIK TOK AND A PODCAST STAPLE .

HE'S RACING AGAINST TIME TO FINISH HIS BIOGRAPHY SERIES ON LYNDON JOHNSON AT 89 YEARS OLD.

ROBERT CARO, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> OH MY GOODNESS, 50 YEARS ON, THE POWERBROKER MOWER POPULAR THAN EVER.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

>> PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED AND NOW THEY ARE WORRIED AND CONCERNED ABOUT THE UNALIKE POWER, UNCHECKED POWER AND THE FACT THAT IT MIGHT BE COMING FOR AMERICA.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE YOU KNOW, ROBERT MOSES WAS THE GUY WHO BUILT NEW YORK, LET'S SAY THAT MOST PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT HIM THINK WOW, LOOK WHAT HE DID, WHAT A CITY.

BUT TO YOU, WHAT DOES ROBERT MOSES STAND FOR?

>> HE STANDS FOR TWO OPPOSITES.

ONE IS A FORM OF GENIUS.

IN 1924 WHEN HE WAS ONLY A YOUNG MAN, HE DREW A MAP OF NEW YORK WITH ALL OF THE ROADS AND PARKWAYS, ALL OF THE EXPRESSWAYS.

MOST OF THE BRIDGES AND PARKS.

HE SPENT THE NEXT 44 YEARS IN POWER FILLING IN THOSE SPACES AND BUILDING THE ROADS AND PARKS.

HE CREATED NEW YORK IN HIS IMAGE, IT LOOKS AND WORKS THE WAY HE WANTED IT TO WORK.

>> IS THIS A GOOD THING OR A BAD THING ?

>> I HAPPEN TO THINK IT'S A REALLY BAD THING .

THE EMBLEM OF HOW BAD IT IS, A CITY IN WHICH SUCH A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF THE PEOPLE HAVE TO DRIVE TO WORK AND BE HOME FROM WORK EVERY NIGHT NO MATTER HOW FAR AWAY THEY LIVE.

RIGHT NOW, THE HEAVY COMMUTING A LONG ISLAND FROM MANHATTAN, IT'S A PLACE CALLED PARK JEFFERSON.

TO GET FROM MANHATTAN TO PARK JEFFERSON IS 200 HALF HOURS TO A HALF HOURS EACH WAY.

FIVE HOURS A DAY TO COMMUTE AND 25 HOURS A WEEK.

1000 HOURS A YEAR.

THAT IS TIRING.

YOUR HOME AT NIGHT AND YOU'RE TIRED.

I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I'M FAMILIAR WITH ROBERT MOSES DID AND IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

WHEN HE WAS BUILDING THE LONG ISLAND EXPRESSWAY, LONG ISLAND WAS MOSTLY FARMS.

THE LAND WAS CHEAP.

HE COULD HAVE BUILT A LIGHT RAIL LINE DOWN THE CENTER OF THE LONG ISLAND EXPRESSWAY AND EVERYONE SAID PLEASE, DO SO.

HE WAS SO INSISTENT THAT NO LIGHT RAIL LINE BE BUILT AND HE WOULDN'T BUILD IT.

MORE THAN THAT, HE BUILT THE FOUNDATIONS UNDERNEATH SO LIGHT YOU COULD NEVER BUILD IT AND EVERY TIME I'M DRIVING IN FROM LONG ISLAND AND YOU SEE 2 1/2 HOURS OF HEADLIGHTS COMING TOWARD YOU, BUMPER-TO-BUMPER TRAFFIC YOU SAY, IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, REALLY INTERESTING FOR ANYONE WHO KNOWS THAT STRETCH OF LONG AND CLOGGED ROADWAY.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOU DID IT THIS WAY THEN?

>> HE WANTED TO DO IT THAT WAY.

ROBERT MOSES LISTENED TO NO ONE.

HE CREATED A FORM OF POWER WHERE HE DIDN'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO ANYBODY.

HE COULD DO IT HOW HE WANTED TO.

HE WASN'T ELECTED TO ANYTHING, CHRISTIANE.

HE WASN'T ELECTED TO THE MAYOR OR GOVERNOR BUT HE HAD MORE POWER THAN ANY MAYOR OR GOVERNOR OR ANY POWER OR MAYOR OF MAYOR OR GOVERNOR PUT TOGETHER.

>> WHO GAVE HIM THAT POWER?

>> NO ONE GAVE THEM THE POWER HE CREATED A PUBLIC AUTHORITY WHICH BUILD BRIDGES AND TUNNELS AND COLLECTED TOLLS IN ITS MODERN FORM HE WAS INDEPENDENT OF ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL AND WAS NEVER ELECTED TO ANYTHING HIMSELF.

HE HAD THE REVENUES, THE VAST REVENUES.

EVERY TIME YOU PUT A QUARTER IN THE SLOT AND THE BRIDGES WERE A TUNNEL IN NEW YORK CITY YOU WERE BASICALLY PAYING IT DIRECTLY TO ROBERT MOSES FOR 44 YEARS.

>> ANOTHER THING HE DID AND MAYBE THIS IS PART OF WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME NOW, HE MOVED, I DON'T KNOW HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR RESIDENCES IN ORDER TO BUILD THIS INFRASTRUCTURE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND AGAIN, HOW DID HE GET AWAY WITH THE HOMING ALL OF THESE PEOPLE?

>> ALMOST NOBODY KNOWS BUT IT IS ASTONISHING.

I WAS TRYING TO GET A NUMBER SO CONSERVATIVE THAT HE COULDN'T ARGUE WITH ME, OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HE DISPOSSESSED OR THROUGH OUT OF THEIR HOMES FOR HIS EXPRESSWAYS AND PARKWAYS.

HIS BRIDGES AND HIS PARKS.

A VERY CONSERVATIVE NUMBER IS 500,000 PEOPLE, HALF 1 MILLION PEOPLE.

>> NOBODY POLITICALLY REBELLED AGAINST THAT?

>> EVERY SO OFTEN SOMEONE WOULD REBEL BUT THE POWER WAS IN ROBERT MOSES'S HANDS.

>> SO YOU HAVE THIS MISSION TO ESSENTIALLY YOU KNOW EXAMINE ROBERT MOSES, WARTS AND ALL.

DID YOU INTERVIEW HIM AND HOW DID YOU GET ON WITH HIM?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF FAMOUS WRITERS HAD BEGAN TO WRITE BOOKS ABOUT HIM BUT I SUPPOSE HE SAID TO THEM EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD HIS AIDE SAY TO ME, I WILL NEVER TALK TO HIM, MIND FAMILY WILL NEVER TALK TO HIM, FRIENDS WILL NEVER TALK TO HIM AND HE HAD THIS PHRASE AND I'M NOT SURE IF I REMEMBER THE WORDS, ANYONE WHO WANTS A CONTRACT TO DO WORK FOR THE CITY OR STATE WILL NEVER TALK TO HIM.

>> HE MUST HAVE LOVED YOU EVEN MORE AFTER THE BOOK WAS PUBLISHED.

>> HE WASN'T IN LOVE WITH THE BOOK BUT AS SOON AS I BEGAN ASKING HIM QUESTIONS AS YOU OR I WOULD CALL A HARD QUESTION HE ENDED THE INTERVIEW RIGHT THERE AND I NEVER SAW HIM AGAIN.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE PROCESS BECAUSE IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW IS YOU WERE PART OF IT, A DOCUMENTARY HAS BEEN MADE OF YOU AND YOUR LONGTIME EDITOR THE LATE ROBERT GOTTLIEB.

HE APPARENTLY INSISTED THAT YOU MOVE 350,000 WORDS FROM YOUR DRAFT OF THE POWERBROKER.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT ALL OF THESE YEARS LATER AND WHAT WAS MISSING?

>> I FEEL SAD.

I WROTE THE BOOK WITH 1,050,000 WORDS .

BOB GOTTLIEB TRYING VERY HARD GOT THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF WORDS YOU COULD GET ON THE PAGE TO MAKE IT A READABLE AND NICE PAGE AND THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF PAGES YOU COULD GET IN A BOOK THEN BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE AS GOOD A FINDING AS THEY DO NOW AND IT CAME OUT TO 700,000 WORDS SO WE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE OF CUTTING 350,000 WORDS.

SOME OF THOSE CHAPTERS THAT WERE CUT I REALLY THOUGHT WERE SOME OF THE BEST IN MY OPINION, THE BEST STUFF I HAD EVER WRITTEN.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE, IT WAS A SAD TIME.

>> WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM ARE THEY IN AN ARCHIVE OR DO YOU HAVE THEM?

>> WELL I HAVE HUGE BOXES FULL OF PAGES.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS IN THERE AND WHAT ISN'T SO I WILL HAVE TO LOOK.

>> WILL SOMEONE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THEM BECAUSE THERE'S ANOTHER BOOK TO BE WRITTEN OR PUBLISHED .

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT FROM THAT DOCUMENTARY, WHAT LIZZIE GOTTLIEB BASICALLY SAID.

>> THESE BOOKS ARE ABOUT URGENT THINGS.

HOW POWER WORKS IN AMERICA AND THE EFFECT OF POWER ON THE POWERLESS AND THINGS THAT WE ALL REALLY NEED TO LEARN AND BOB CARO THINGS AND I FEEL MY FATHER AGREES BUT UNLESS THE SENTENCES ARE AS COMPELLING AND RIVETING AS POSSIBLE NO ONE WILL READ THE BOOKS OR CARE.

FOR THEM, AS HE SAYS, EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT, EVERY SINGLE DETAIL.

THEY ARE VERY OPINIONATED AND STRONG-WILLED.

THEY EACH THINK THEY ARE RIGHT SO THEY REALLY GET INTO IT IN THE NITTY-GRITTY AND ON THE BIG PICTURE ISSUE US AS WELL.

>> IN THE END, WOULD YOU SAY YOU ARE AT PEACE WITH THE AMOUNT THAT THE BOB GOTTLIEB GOT YOU TO EXCISE FROM YOUR DRAFTS?

>> NO .

IF YOU LOOK AT THIS EXHIBIT THAT IS ON NOW THERE ARE EXCERPTS FROM A CHAPTER THAT I THOUGHT WAS REALLY ABOUT AS GOOD AS I COULD WRITE AND I ALWAYS FELT BAD THAT CHAPTER ISN'T IN THE BOOK BUT THE FACT WAS WE BOTH REALIZED IT HAD TO GO.

WE HAD TO GET 350,000 WORDS OUT OF IT OTHERWISE WE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUBLISH IT.

I DIDN'T REALLY WANT TO HAVE TWO VOLUMES BUT I WAS SO DESPERATE AT SOME POINT THAT I MENTIONED THE POSSIBILITY OF TWO VOLUMES AND BOB GOTTLIEB SAYS I MIGHT GET PEOPLE INTERESTED IN ROBERT MOSES ONCE BUT I WILL NEVER GET THEM INTERESTED IN ROBERT MOSES TWICE.

>> TO SUM UP YOUR MEMORIES, YOUR APPRECIATION OF GOTTLIEB ?

>> WE WERE BOTH RATHER STRONG- WILLED PEOPLE.

HE CARED AS MUCH ABOUT WRITING AS I DID.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE AGREED ABOUT WRITING.

WE WERE HAVING A LOT OF REALLY VIOLENT FIGHTS IN WHICH ONE OR THE OTHER OF US WOULD STOCK OUT OF HIS OFFICE.

HE WAS THE PRESIDENT THERE SO HE COULD STOCK INTO SOMEONE ELSE'S OFFICE AND TALK TO THEM ABOUT SOME OTHER PROBLEM OR PROJECT BUT I HAD NO PLACE TO GO EXCEPT THE BATHROOM SO PEOPLE MUST HAVE THOUGHT I HAD A REALLY WEAK BLADDER.

>> BOB CARO, YOU ARE A FUNNY MAN.

SO OBVIOUSLY YOUR OTHER PROJECT HAS BEEN ABOUT LYNDON B. JOHNSON.

LYNDON B. JOHNSON WAS THE LATEST IN THE LAST PRESIDENT WHO VOLUNTARILY DECIDED NOT TO RUN FOR ANOTHER TERM BECAUSE OF THE PRESSURES AND PUBLIC REACTION AGAINST THE WAR IN VIETNAM AND WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU SAW JOE BIDEN PULLING OUT FOR DIFFERENT REASONS BUT NONETHELESS NOT GOING FOR ANOTHER TERM AFTER THINKING HE WOULD?

>> VERY DIFFERENT THOUGHTS .

YOU KNOW, WITH BIDEN I FELT IT WAS SOMETHING VERY POIGNANT AND I WAS GLAD HE STEPPED DOWN.

I FELT THAT HE WAS AGING AND I FEEL BEING PRESIDENT IS A MAN KILLING JOB AND I FELT THAT HE WAS NOT UP TO IT ANYMORE BUT THE FACT THAT YOU WANT TO BE PRESIDENT ALL YOUR LIFE AND YOU GET TO BE PRESIDENT AND THEN YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP THE PRESIDENCY, YOU GIVE UP WHAT YOU WANTED ALL YOUR LIFE IS POIGNANT.

JOHNSON WAS A DIFFERENT SITUATION.

HE SENT 600,000 MEN, 600,000 MEN TO VIETNAM.

THE DEATH RATE AMONG THOSE SOLDIERS WAS RISING EVERY WEEK.

THERE WERE 58,000 THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN KILLED.

350,000 SERIOUSLY INJURED FOR A WAR THAT REALLY HAD NO REASON SO I DIDN'T FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT JOHNSON STEPPING DOWN AS I DID ABOUT BIDEN.

>> TALK TO ME ABOUT THE PRESSURE ON A VICE PRESIDENT WHEN THEY SEEK THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT WHETHER IT WAS JOHNSON SEEKING THE OFFICE AND HAD IT THRUST UPON HIM BY JOHN F. KENNEDY'S ASSASSINATION AND BEING ELECTED AND NOW KAMALA HARRIS IN THE SAME SIMILAR POSITION WHAT IS YOUR REFLECTION ON THAT?

>> A GOOD QUESTION.

IT'S THE TOUGHEST THING TO DECIDE HOW TO ASSUME THE PRESIDENCY AND TO WHAT EXTENT ARE YOU GOING TO STAY OR THE POLICIES OR YOUR PREDECESSOR AND TO WHAT EXTENT YOU THINK THOSE POLICIES ARE ON AND WILL YOU CHANGE THEM AND WHAT WILL PEOPLE SAY ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE CHANGING THEM WITHOUT BEING ELECTED?

>> HOW WOULD YOU SAY JOHNSON TOOK KENNEDY'S AGENDA FORWARD?

>> THAT'S FASCINATING.

YOU KNOW, KENNEDY'S LEGISLATIVE AGENDA HAD BEEN ALMOST COMPLETELY STOPPED BY THIS COMMITTEE LEADER IN CONGRESS.

I FORGET THE YEAR BUT I THINK OF THE 17 GREAT STANDING COMMITTEES IN THE SENATE I THINK THEY WERE THE CHAIRMAN OF 11 AND BECAUSE KENNEDY WAS PUSHING CIVIL RIGHTS THEY WERE REALLY STOPPING HIS WHOLE LEGISLATIVE AGENDA SO FOUR DAYS AFTER JOHNSON'S , AFTER THE ASSASSINATION.

JOHNSON HAVE TO GIVE A SPEECH TO THE JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS.

HE'S NOT EVEN IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

HE STILL LIVING IN HIS HOME.

HE'S UPSTAIRS SLEEPING AND DOWN IN THE KITCHEN FOUR OF HIS SPEECH WRITERS AND ADVISORS ARE WORKING ON THIS SPEECH TO GIVE TO CONGRESS AND AROUND MIDNIGHT HE COMES DOWNSTAIRS AND BASICALLY SAYS HOW ARE WE DOING AND THEY SAID WELL, WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN AN AGREEMENT ON A LOT OF THE THINGS BUT THE ONLY THING WE REALLY AGREED ON, YOU MUST NOT MAKE CIVIL RIGHTS A PRIORITY LIKE KENNEDY DID AND IF YOU DO THAT THE SOUTHERNERS ARE GOING TO STOP YOUR WHOLE LEGISLATIVE AGENDA.

IT'S A NOBLE CAUSE BUT A LOST CAUSE.

DON'T FIGHT FOR IT.

LYNDON JOHNSON SAYS WILL WHAT'S A PRESIDENCY FOR THEN?

IN HIS SPEECH HE SAYS OUR FIRST PRIORITY MUST BE TO PASS JOHN KENNEDY'S CIVIL RIGHTS BILL.

THE THRILLING THING TO ME.

I STILL GET GOOSEFLESH WHEN I SEE HIM MAKING THAT STATEMENT AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE SEATED IN A ROW IN FRONT OF HIM.

>> SOMEONE MIGHT SAY THAT'S A BOLD MOVE.

I WONDER WHETHER TODAY POLITICIANS HAVE THAT MORAL COURAGE AND THE COURAGE TO DELIVER WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN SO WHAT WAS IT LIKE AND WHAT HAS IT BEEN LIKE TO THIS DAY TO LIVE WITH JOHNSON FOR SO LONG AND WILL YOU COMPLETE THE FIFTH INSTALLMENT OF YOUR MAJESTIC BIOGRAPHY?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I'M AFRAID THE LAST QUESTION ISN'T UP TO ME.

I'M GOING TO BE WRITING AS LONG AS I CAN.

>> WHAT WAS IT LIKE AND CONTINUES TO BE LIKE LIVING WITH JOHNSON?

>> IT'S AMAZING AND I'M INTERESTED IN HOW POLITICAL POWER WORKS AND I'M INTERESTED IN HOW CONGRESS WORKS IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WORKS.

LYNDON JOHNSON WAS A GENIUS AT THAT.

YOU KNOW IN THE FIRST FIVE MONTHS OF 1965, LYNDON JOHNSON PASSES MEDICARE, MEDICAID, THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, A NEW IMMIGRATION ACT, AND SEVEN DIFFERENT EDUCATION ACTS AND EVERYTHING WE THINK WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS AN EDUCATION HE DID.

INCREDIBLE THAT HE WAS ABLE TO GET THESE THINGS THROUGH SO TO WATCH THEM DO IT AND LISTEN TO HIM ON THE TAPES THAT HAVE BEEN RECORDED.

YOU SAY, THIS IS HOW GOVERNMENT REALLY WORKS OR REALLY CAN WORK IF THE GUY IN CHARGE OF IT IS IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF.

>> DID YOU THINK THAT THE BIOGRAPHIES OF JOHNSON AND ROBERT MOSES WOULD BE SUCH MATERNAL BLOCKBUSTERS?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

YOU KNOW THE FIRST EDITOR I HAD ON THE ROBERT MOSES BOOK BEFORE BOB GOTTLIEB USED TO SAY, I GOT A SMALL ADVANCE TO DO THE BOOK AND WHEN I ASKED FOR MORE MONEY BECAUSE AFTER FOUR OR FIVE YEARS I WAS OUT OF MONEY HE SAID YOU KNOW, NO ONE'S GOING TO READ A BOOK ON ROBERT MOSES SO YOU'VE GOT TO BE PREPARED FOR A SMALL PRINTING AND I HEARD THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR SEVEN YEARS NO ONE'S GOING TO READ A BOOK ON ROBERT MOSES AND TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH I BELIEVED IT.

I BELIEVE IT WAS AN IMPORTANT BOOK TO WRITE AND TO HAVE READ BECAUSE I THOUGHT WE HAD TO TAKE REAL LESSONS FROM ROBERT MOSES AND LYNDON JOHNSON BUT I MYSELF DIDN'T THINK AND MOSES HIS CASE THIS WOULD GET READ.

>> FINALLY HOW OLD ARE YOU?

>> 88.

>> MY GOODNESS .

>> SORRY YOU HAD TO ASK.

>> I'M ASKING BECAUSE HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE SECRET OF YOUR VIGOR ?

YOU ARE VIGOROUS PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY.

>> I'VE GOT NO EXPLANATION.

I HAPPEN TO LIKE WRITING.

>> WILL WE LIKE READING WHAT YOU WRITE.

KEEP GOING.

ROBERT CARO THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> OUR NEXT GUEST TAKES A WIDER LOOK INTO A VARIETY OF AMERICAN PRESIDENCIES, HIS BOOK, THE HIGHEST CALLING, CONVERSATIONS ON THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY.

THE RENOWNED BUSINESSMAN AND FINANCE THERAPIST DAVID RUBENSTEIN INTERVIEWED SOME OF THE GREATEST POLITICAL FIGURES FROM LIVING AMERICAN PRESIDENTS TO TOP HISTORIANS AND JOURNALISTS AND JOINS ALTAR ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE LIVES AND LEGACIES OF THOSE WHO OCCUPIED AMERICA'S HIGHEST OFFICE.

>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.

DAVID RUBENSTEIN, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> ON THIS BOOK ABOUT THE INTERESTING PRESIDENTS YOU INTERVIEWED A LOT OF HISTORIANS AND SOMETIMES HE STARTED BY ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY DID YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS PRESIDENT SO LET ME THROW THIS BACK AT YOU.

WHY DID YOU WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY?

>> WHAT I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER BOOK ON THE PRESIDENCY IS BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN AN INFINITE NUMBER OF THEM.

I CAN'T SAY MINE WILL CHANGE THE WORLD BUT WHAT I WAS HOPING TO DO IS SHOW HOW THE PRESIDENTS REPUTATIONS CHANGE AND HOW IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT OUR PRESIDENT AND MOST IMPORTANTLY I WANT PEOPLE TO GET EXCITED ABOUT PRESIDENTS AND VOTE.

WE HAVE 160 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED IN THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BUT 80 MILLION PEOPLE WHO WERE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE CHOSE NOT TO AND I'M HOPING MORE PEOPLE WILL VOTE THIS TIME AND I THINK OUR DEMOCRACY WILL BE STRONGER IF MORE PEOPLE VOTED.

>> CALLED THE PRESIDENCY THE GREATEST CALLING IT WASN'T REALLY THAT IN OUR EARLY HISTORY.

EVEN GEORGE WASHINGTON WASN'T CONSIDERED TO BE MORE THAN ONE OF THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.

WHY DO YOU CALL THIS THE GREATEST CALLING AND HOW DID IT BECOME THIS?

>> WHEN HE BECAME PRESIDENT WE HAVE 3 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY AND WEREN'T EXACTLY A GLOBAL POWER AND BEING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WASN'T THOUGHT TO BE THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD.

GEORGE WASHINGTON DIDN'T WANT TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND HAD TURNED IT DOWN FOR SOME TIME BUT WHEN WOODROW WILSON WENT TO PARIS TO HELP NEGOTIATE THE TREATY OF VERSAILLES HE WAS TREATED LIKE A GOD AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN PARIS CHEERED HIM ON.

THE FIRST TIME THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES LEFT THE COUNTRY AS A PRESIDENT OF THE FIRST TIME I THINK THE WORLD SAW THE MOST IMPORTANT MAN IN THE WORLD WERE PERSON IN THE WORLD, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHILE HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY PEOPLE WHO WASN'T AS PROMINENT LIKE LET'S SAY HARDING OR COOLIDGE WHEN FDR BECAME PRESIDENT IT WAS CLEAR MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THAT'S WHY SAY THIS IS THE HIGHEST CALLING RESUMING SO MANY PEOPLE SPEND SO MUCH TIME TRYING TO BECOME THE PRESIDENT AND POINTING OUT IN THE BOOK PEOPLE SPENT A COUPLE OF YEARS IN THEIR LIFE TRYING TO BECOME PRESIDENT AND OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT SPENT 47 YEARS OF HIS LIFE THINKING ABOUT BECOMING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND YOU SAY TO YOURSELF WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO DO THIS?

JOHN KENNEDY WAS ASSASSINATED AND LYNDON JOHNSON WAS DRIVEN FROM OFFICE AND RICHARD NIXON HAD TO RESIGN AND GERALD FORD COULDN'T GET REELECTED.

RONALD REAGAN WAS ASSASSINATED OR ALMOST ASSASSINATED SO WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT THE JOB?

IT'S THE HIGHEST CALLING ARE PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH WHEN YOU ARE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PEOPLE CANNOT RESIST THIS POWER.

>> ONE OF THE REPUTATIONAL CHANGES THAT STRUCK ME IN THE BOOK IS YOU'VE GOT A GREAT WRITER WHO WROTE ABOUT CALVIN COOLIDGE WHOSE REPUTATION SEEMS TO BE COMING BACK UP.

EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.

>> WHEN RONALD REAGAN BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HE TOOK COOLIDGE HIS PORTRAIT AND PUT IT IN THE CABINET ROOM BECAUSE HE ADMIRED WHAT HE STOOD FOR.

HE BELIEVED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD SOLVE ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS AND BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE A BALANCED BUDGET WHICH IS RARE AND BELIEVED THAT THERE SHOULD BE I WOULD SAY REDUCE FEDERAL EXPENDITURES IN CERTAIN TYPES OF AREAS AND DIDN'T BELIEVE IN TALKING TOO MUCH THERE WAS A PERSON WHO SAID TO HIM I BET SOMEONE ELSE THAT I COULD GET YOU TO SAY MORE THAN TWO WORDS THAT HE SAID YOU LOSE.

HE WAS A DIFFERENT PERSON.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN ELECTED ALMOST CERTAINLY TO ANOTHER TERM BUT CHOSE TO GO BACK TO HIS NATIVE NEW HAMPSHIRE AND REMAIN THERE OR NATIVE VERMONT I SHOULD SAY AND REMAIN THERE.

HE WAS A PERSON WHO I THINK ADMIRED BY MANY PEOPLE INCLUDING THE PERSON I INTERVIEWED BECAUSE HE DID NOT TRY TO BRAG ABOUT HIMSELF OR GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DO MORE THAN IT SHOULD DO AND HE WAS TRYING TO BALANCE THE BUDGET, A UNIQUE THING WHICH IS UNCOMMON THESE DAYS.

>> HE TALKS ABOUT FRANKLIN D ROOSEVELT AND JUST AS OTHERS HAVE DONE TALKED ABOUT HOW POLIO WAS SO IMPORTANT OTHERWISE HE MIGHT HAVE JUST BECOME A PLAYBOY.

EXPLAIN WHY OVERCOMING ADVERSITY IS PART OF BECOMING A PRESIDENT?

>> HIS THEORY IS THAT FDR WAS A NICE MAN BUT NOT CONSIDERED AN INTELLECTUAL GIANT BY HIS PEERS OR MUCH OF A LEADER AND CERTAINLY KIND OF A PERSON WHO WAS NEVER GOING TO AMOUNT TO MUCH AS HIS PEERS MAY HAVE THOUGHT BUT WHEN HE CONTRACTED POLIO, SUDDENLY HE RECEIVED MORE GRIT AND DETERMINATION TO FIGHT THE POLIO AND IT'S POINTED OUT IN THE INTERVIEW IF HE HAD BETTER DOCTORS AND THEY RECOGNIZED IT AT THE OUTSET HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WALK AGAIN BUT HE HAD POOR TREATMENT FROM 30 DAYS BEFORE THEY RECOGNIZED WHAT IT WAS AND AS A RESULT HE COULD NEVER WALK AGAIN BUT HE USED GRIT AND DETERMINATION TO PULL HIMSELF BACK INTO THE LIMELIGHT OF POLITICAL LIGHT THAT IT PROBABLY MADE HIM A STRONGER PERSON WHICH I THINK I AGREE WITH, HAD HE NOT HAD POLIO FDR MAY HAVE NOT HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT OR HAVE THE GRIT TO DO THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO TO BECOME THE PRESIDENT OR BE A GOOD PRESIDENT.

>> YOU BEGAN A FEEL FOR IT IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE U.S. PRESIDENCY AS A MID-LEVEL DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISOR FOR JIMMY CARTER AND HE TOLD A GREAT STORY OF INAUGURATION DAY WERE YOU GOT TO GO TO THE WHITE HOUSE FIRST BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE IS RUNNING THE SHOP.

TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO WORK WITH CARTER AND WHAT DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WENT INTO THE WHITE HOUSE FOR THE FIRST TIME?

>> I CAME FROM A BLUE-COLLAR BACKGROUND.

MY PARENTS WEREN'T COLLEGE OR HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATED AND THE IDEA THAT THREE YEARS OUT OF THE LAW SCHOOL I'M WORKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE WAS SURPRISING TO MY PARENTS AND MY FRIENDS I'D GROWN UP WITH AND IT WAS SURPRISING TO ME.

I HAD TO PINCH MYSELF EVERYDAY WHEN I WORKED IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THERE'S NOTHING LIKE THE THRILL OF WORKING AT THE WHITE HOUSE AS AN ADVISOR BECAUSE YOU'RE AT THE CENTER OF POWER MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS FOR PRESIDENT WHICH WILL LIKELY AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.

I DIDN'T TAKE A DAY OFF FOR FOUR YEARS.

I ENJOYED IT AND IT WAS A HIGHLIGHT OF MY LIFE.

THE STORY YOU ARE REFERRING TO IS I WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE BUT I DID KNOW HOW TO GET INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AND I FORGOT TO GET CLEARED IN SO HAD THERE BEEN AN EMERGENCY DURING THAT FIRST HOUR OR TWO WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD ANYONE TO COVER IT.

>> PRESIDENT CARTER IS NOW REACHING HIS 100th BIRTHDAY AND HE IS IN HOSPICE CARE.

TELL ME, PERSONALLY, WOULD YOU THINK OF HIM AND YOU THINK HIS REPUTATION IS DUE TO BEING INCREASED?

>> HIS REPUTATION WILL GET BETTER FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, HIS POST PRESENT HE PRESIDENCY HAS BEEN SPECTACULAR AND POST PRESIDENT 44 YEARS, 11 TIMES AS MUCH TIME TO DO THINGS AND HE'S DONE A SPECTACULAR THING AS PRESIDENT.

HE'S WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE FOR THINGS HE DID AFTER HE LEFT HIS PRESIDENCY AND AS A PRESIDENT HE GOT MORE DONE THAN PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THIS TIME.

CARTER GOT ENORMOUS NUMBERS OF THINGS THROUGH CONGRESS BUT BECAUSE HE PROPOSED SO MANY MORE HE DIDN'T GET CREDIT FOR AS MUCH AS BEING SUCCESSFUL AND HE WAS TRYING TO GET TOO MANY THINGS DONE AND GOT MANY OF THEM DONE THE PEOPLE THOUGHT HE WAS A BIT OF A FAILURE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T GET MANY OF HIS THINGS DONE OR GET THE HOSTAGES OUT, HAD HE GOTTEN THE HOSTAGES OUT DURING HIS TERM AS PRESIDENT I THINK HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN REELECTION.

>> GEORGE HW BUSH, HE HAD A SUCCESSFUL ONE TERM AS PRESIDENT IN OTHER WORDS HE COMPROMISED ON TAXES WHICH PROBABLY DIDN'T HELP HIS REELECTION BID BUT IT DID HELP THE ECONOMY AND BROUGHT US TO A SAFE LANDING.

AFTER THE BERLIN WALL FELT AFTER SPIKING A BALL TO THE END ZONE AND PURSUED THE FIRST GULF WAR AND A WAY THAT GOT US IN AND OUT RATHER THAN A LONG-TERM WAR.

WHY DID HE NOT GET REELECTED AND WILL HISTORY TREAT HIM BETTER?

>> I THINK HE DIDN'T GET REELECTED FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.

HE WENT BACK ON HIS WORD THAT HE WOULD INCREASE TAXES CLOSER TO A SMALLER DEFICIT HE DID AGREE TO INCREASE TAXES AND WENT ON TO A COMMITTEE HE MADE.

HE WAS PERCEIVED AT THE TIME WE WERE IN A RECESSION WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT WHILE WE WERE NOT IN RECESSION THERE WAS A PERCEPTION AND THAT WAS A PROBLEM AND I THINK THAT HE WAS DEALT A DIFFICULT BLOW BY SOMEONE RUNNING AGAINST HIM FOR A YEAR OR SO, ROSS PEROT.

HE WAS A BUSINESSMAN WHO RAN AS AN INDEPENDENT AND WELL HE DIDN'T GET ANY ELECTORAL VOTES HE GOT 19% OF THE POPULAR VOTE BUT SPENT MOST OF HIS TIME RAILING AGAINST GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH WHICH WAS A PROBLEM.

BUSH IS YOU PROBABLY POINTED OUT, HE HEADED THE COLD WAR PEACEFULLY AND HELPED UNITE GERMANY WITHOUT A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH RUSSIA AT THE TIME WHICH WAS CONTROVERSIAL TO REUNITE GERMANY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HE DID THE KUWAIT WAR IN A WAY THAT SHOWS PEOPLE HOW TO WAGE MASSIVE WARS, WE WON DECISIVELY WE GOT OUT AND ACCOMPLISHED OUR MISSION.

>> GEORGE W. BUSH MADE A LOT OF DECISIONS DURING HIS PRESIDENCY WHICH WERE HOTLY DISPUTED DURING HIS TIME .

DID HE INDICATE TO YOU IN HIS DISCUSSION ANYTHING THAT HE HAD SECOND THOUGHTS ON?

>> HE HAD SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT THE INVASION OF IRAQ AND I THINK HE FELT THAT HAD HE KNOWN ABOUT THERE WERE NO MASS DESTRUCTION WEAPONS HE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE INVADED HE SECURED HIS POSITION SO THERE ARE MANY THINGS HE WOULD NOT GUESS.

HE WAS CRITICAL OF THE IDEA OF BAILING OUT THE BANKS AND THOUGHT THIS WAS ANTITHETICAL TO EVERYTHING HE STOOD FOR.

EVERYTHING IS WORKED OUT IN THE ECONOMY RECOVERED BUT I THINK THAT HE HAD SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA NOW HE THINKS IT PROBABLY DID WORK AND AS TO THE WAR ON IRAQ YOU COULD TALK ABOUT THAT FOREVER.

HE'S NOT GOING TO SAY HE MADE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE HE'S JUST GOING TO SAY HAD HE KNOWN THINGS THE CIRCUMSTANCE OF INDIFFERENCE HE MIGHT HAVE DONE A DIFFERENT THING.

IS HAVING TROUBLE SECOND- GUESSING HIMSELF.

>> YOU INTERVIEWED DONALD TRUMP AND MARA LONGO AT THE DAY OF ONE OF HIS TRIALS.

WHAT WAS THAT INTERVIEW LIKE?

>> OF INTERVIEWED HIM BEFORE HE TOLD ME IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE WOULD RUN FOR PRESIDENT AND I SAID PRESIDENT OF WHAT?

I COULDN'T BELIEVE HE WAS GOING TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I WAS SURPRISED AS MANY WERE.

WHILE MANY PEOPLE ARE CRITICAL OF HIM HE'S BEEN THE NOMINEE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THREE TIMES IN A ROW.

NO ONE ELSE HAS DONE THAT SO HE OBVIOUSLY HAS SOME FLAIR FOR CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE THAT'S HARD TO PUT YOUR FINGER ON BUT HE HAS THE ABILITY TO POSSIBLY BE ELECTED AS PRESIDENT AND I WOULDN'T RULE OUT HIS ELECTION.

DONALD TRUMP, WHEN YOU INTERVIEW HIM HE'S OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS AND HE MIGHT SAY THINGS OTHERS MIGHT DISAGREE WITH BUT HE'S NEVER IN DOUBT.

NEVER IN DOUBT ABOUT HIS VIEWS.

>> YOU INTERVIEWED PRESIDENT BIDEN NOT TOO LONG AGO.

IT WAS THE FULL HOUR, JUST THE TWO OF YOU IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

TELL ME WHAT HE WAS LIKE AND WHAT TYPE OF FEELINGS WAS HE HAVING ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING POLITICALLY.

>> HE EXPECTED TO BE THE NOMINEE OF THE PARTY THIS INTERVIEW OCCURRED BEFORE HE DECIDED NOT TO PURSUE THE NOMINATION.

I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR A LONG TIME HE WAS THE FIRST UNITED STATES SENATOR TO ENDORSE JIMMY CARTER MY FORMER BOSS AND I HAD KNOWN HIM IN MANY DIFFERENT CONTEXTS IN WASHINGTON DC AND I'VE BEEN THE CHAIRMAN OF THE KENNEDY CENTER AND THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SMITHSONIAN TO THINK ABOUT IT HE WAS ELECTED TO THE SENATE WHEN HE WAS 29 1/2.

HIS WIFE DIES AND DAUGHTER DIES IN A TRAGIC ACCIDENT AND HE ALMOST DOESN'T BECOME SENATOR HE WANTS TO SAY AT HOME WITH HIS SONS BECOMES TO BE SENATOR.

HE FINALLY MAKES IT AT AN OLDER AGE, 78 AND HAS FOUR YEARS AS PRESIDENT.

HE HAD SIGNIFICANT THINGS THROUGH LIKE THE CHIPS ACT AND DEALT WITH VARIOUS ISSUES ON OTHER THINGS BUT I THINK HE WOULD PREFER TO HAVE ANOTHER TERM BUT IN THE END THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT WAS A PLEASANT TIME AND OBVIOUSLY THE TIME WHEN YOU INTERVIEW HIM WHEN HE'S MOST EXCITED TALKING ABOUT HIS FAMILY AND HIS PARENTS AND WHEN YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT HIS MOTHER AND FATHER HE REALLY LIGHTS UP AND IS AN INCREDIBLE INDIVIDUAL AND I THINK WHY SOME OF YOU PEOPLE OVER SO MANY YEARS THOUGHT HE SHOULD BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

HE'S AN INTERESTING PERSON AND VERY NICE TO INTERVIEW AND SOMEONE THAT I ENJOYED GETTING TO KNOW.

>> ONE OF THE BIG POLITICAL QUESTIONS OF COURSE WAS HIS AGE WITH HIS AGE WAS CATCHING UP WITH THEM.

HE, TO WHAT EXTENT, DID YOU FEEL HE WAS GETTING OLDER FROM THE PERSON YOU HAD KNOWN FOR DECADES?

>> I DIDN'T SEE THE PROBLEMS THAT APPEARED IN THE DEBATE .

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN DUE TO A NUMBER OF THINGS AND CLEARLY, PEOPLE AGE A BIT, I'M NOW 75 AND I WAS DOING THIS INTERVIEW AT 65 AND I MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO A BETTER JOB THAN I DID TODAY.

I DON'T SEE THAT HE'S AGED ANYMORE THAN A NORMAL AGING PROCESS WOULD HAVE OCCUR BUT AGAIN I'M NOT A DOCTOR.

WE PUT THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW IN THE BOOK WE DID NOT DID IT EDIT IT OUT SO I THINK YOU DID A GOOD JOB.

IT'S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THAN DOING AN INTERVIEW IN FRONT OF ME.

>> HOW WHICH IS THE PRESIDENT AND SAW THAT THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE TIM WALZ WAS SAYING MAYBE WE SHOULD GET RID OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

TELL ME WHAT REFORM DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD AND SHOULD NOT BE?

>> BE A GOOD THING TO GET RID OF.

>> WE CREATED THESE ELECTORS.

>> THOSE WHO ELECTED PRESIDENT WHO WON A MINORITY OF THE POPULAR VOTE.

I THINK THAT'S NOT AS DEMOCRATIC AS WE WOULD LIKE BUT TO BE REALISTIC THAT WON'T CHANGE IT TAKES TWO THIRDS OF EACH HOUSE OF THREE QUARTERS OF EACH STATE TO GET A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT SO I THINK I PREFER TO FOCUS ON THINGS MORE REALISTIC AND I THINK IT BE BETTER IF WE HAD LIMITS ON WHAT PRESIDENT COULD DO FINANCIALLY AS PRESIDENT WITH NO LIMITS ON THAT NOW AND NO LIMITS ON WHAT HE OR SHE COULD DO, THE FIRST FINANCIAL ASSETS, KENNEDY PUT HIS ASSETS IN A TRUST.

CARTER DID AS WELL AND IF YOU ARE A CABINET OFFICER YOU HAVE TO PUT YOUR ASSETS IN A TRUST.

THEY COULD BE GOOD IF WE HAD MORE DISCLOSURE ON HEALTH.

THEY GAVE A PRO FORMA OR A DESCRIPTION BUT NOT VERY MUCH.

I THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT WOULD FIND A WAY TO GET TOGETHER AND MAYBE COMBINE THEIR COLLECTIVE EXPERIENCE IN SOME WAY TO HELP THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW WE DON'T HAVE A MECHANISM FOR DOING THAT BUT I THINK THAT THIS WOULD BE NOT A BAD IDEA AS WELL AND I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD PROBABLY GET RID OF AS MUCH MONEY IN POLITICS AS WE CAN.

IT'S TOO MUCH MONEY IN POLITICS.

WE NEED TO TAKE ABOUT $7 BILLION OR $8 BILLION TO FINISH THE CAMPAIGN IT IT'S IMPORTANT YOU GOT TO SPEND THAT MUCH MONEY AND BECAUSE SO MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED YOU HAVE THE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THE PRESIDENTS ARE FORCED TO MAKE DECISIONS BECAUSE DONORS ASK THEM TO DO SOMETHING AND MAYBE THAT'S NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AT THAT TIME.

>> DAVID RUBENSTEIN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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