November 7, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> I LOOK FORWARD TO SIT DOWN WITH DONALD TRUMP TO DISCUSS HOW WE CAN FACE THE THREATS COLLECTIVELY.

>> NATO AND THE WORLD PREPARE FOR DONALD TRUMP'S RETURN.

FINLAND'S PRESIDENT, ALEXANDER JOINTLY WITH HIS VIEW ON THE NEW CHAPTER IN EUROPE U.S. RELATIONS.

AND.

>>> IT HAS TO AND AT SOME POINT.

>> I ASK YOU TRAINS FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER.

>>> THEN, A WASHINGTON INSIDER ADDRESSES THE FALLOUT FROM TUESDAY'S ELECTION.

WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS WITH JONATHAN MARTIN.

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THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

>>> FROM DAY ONE, ENHANCING DEMOCRACY THE WHOLE MARK OF HIS PRESIDENCY.

NOW, HE OFFERS DONALD TRUMP THE TRADITIONAL, OFFICIAL COURTESY THAT TRUMP HAD DENIED HIM FOUR YEARS AGO.

A WHITE HOUSE MEETING IN ORDER TO FACILITATE THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER.

>> THE STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA, SINCE OUR VERY FOUNDING HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ONGOING DEBATE AND STILL, VITAL TODAY.

I KNOW FOR SOME PEOPLE IT'S A TIME FOR VICTORY, TO STATE THE OBVIOUS, FOR OTHERS, IT'S A TIME OF LOSS.

CAMPAIGNS ARE CONTESTS.

COMPETING VISIONS.

THE COUNTRY CHOOSES ONE OR THE OTHER.

WE ACCEPTED THE CHOICE, THE COUNTRY MADE.

AND I'VE SAID MANY TIMES, YOU CAN'T LOVE YOUR COUNTRY ONLY WHEN YOU WIN.

YOU CAN'T LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR ONLY WHEN YOU AGREE.

>> NOW BACK IN JANUARY, JOE BIDEN KICKED OFF HIS ABORTED PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN BY ACCUSING TRUMP OF SACRIFICING DEMOCRACY TO PUT HIMSELF BACK IN CHARGE.

THIS WE, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOWING EXACTLY WHO -- DECLARING THEIR HARDSHIPS, MANDATED A CHANGE, WORTH GOING BACK TO THE FUTURE FOUR.

IN A MOMENT, WE LOOK AT WHAT THIS MEANS FOR AMERICA AND THE WORLD, FIRST, FOR MORE ON HOW WASHINGTON PREPARES TO SHIFT BACK TO A PRESIDENCY, CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL --JEFF, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I KNOW YOU BEEN ANALYZING -- YOU KNOW, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING UNUSUAL.

HE ACTUALLY OFFERED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAVE COME TO DESERVE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> CHRISTIANE, SO UTTERLY NORMAL FOR ONE PRESIDENT TO EXTEND A BRANCH AND A PHONE CALL YESTERDAY TO THE PRESIDENT-ELECT AND INVITE HIM TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

THAT MEETING IS LIKELY TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK AND HE SAID HE WAS A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION.

LICK YOUR WOUNDS AND MOVE ON.

THE REASON IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY WAS BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT-ELECT TO JOE BIDEN, FOUR YEARS AGO, WAS NEVER AFFORDED THAT COURTESY.

THE QUESTIONING OF THE LEGITIMACY OF THE LAST ELECTION REALLY WAS A SHADOW AND MORE THAN THAT, A CANCER THAT HUNG OVER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND THE WHOLE PRESIDENCY.

BUT CHRISTIANE, WE TAKE A STEP BACK ON THIS, THE WHOLE REASON HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2020 WAS TO STOP DONALD TRUMP, THE WHOLE REASON HE RAN FOR RE- ELECTION, HE THOUGHT ONLY I CAN BEAT HIM BUT WHAT AN EXTRAORDINARY TURN OF EVENTS, SAYS PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS PUSHED FROM THE TICKET BECAUSE HE WAS NOT EQUIPPED TO SERVE.

THAT WAS CLEAR.

NOW HE WILL BE TAKING HIS LEAVE STRONGER THAN EVER.

IT'S REMARKABLE.

>> IT CERTAINLY IS A BIG COMEBACK AND I SAYS I SAID, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE CONVICTIONS, THE IMPEACHMENTS, ALL THE THINGS THAT HE'S DONE, NONETHELESS DECLARED THAT THEY WERE SUFFERING ENOUGH TO BRING THIS BACK TO OFFICE.

BUT BIDEN WAS OBVIOUSLY ADDRESSING HIS SUPPORTERS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE STRUGGLED FOR A DIFFERENT OUTCOME, LIKE KAMALA HARRIS DID YESTERDAY, WHAT DID THEY THINK THEY DID WRONG, IF ANYTHING OR FAIL TO RECOGNIZE IN THE AMERICAN MOOD.

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE, I THINK AN OVERRELIANCE ON THE ABORTION-RIGHTS MESSAGE THAT WAS A LESSON THAT DEMOCRATS ON THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS THAT, YOU KNOW, REALLY HELPED THEM STOP THEM FROM A HUGE REPUBLICAN WIN.

THIS WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AFTER THE DOBBS DECISION.

I THINK DEMOCRATIC -- THAT THIS WOULD BE A ENOUGH TO STOP THE BLEEDING IN OTHER AREAS ON THE ECONOMY ON THE RIGHT TRACK, RUN TRACK BUT IT SIMPLY WASN'T AND ONE OF THE REASONS IS, ABORTION- RIGHTS HAS PLAYED OUT IN AN ELECTION IN MANY PLACES ALREADY.

SOME STATES HAVE PASSED REFERENDUMS AND VOTERS SIMPLY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT HE SUPPORTED A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN.

HE WAS SUCCESSFUL IN MUDDYING THAT ISSUE.

HE'S CERTAINLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WRITING THAT DECISION BUT SINCE THEN, HE'S SORT OF BEEN ARMS LENGTH FROM THAT.

SO I THINK AN OVERRELIANCE ON ABORTION-RIGHTS AS A MESSAGE AND ALSO, THE FACT THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WAS, YOU KNOW, TO WIN, SHE HAD BE SEEN AS THE CHANGE CANDIDATE, AND SO CHALLENGING TO SORT OF DIFFERENTIATE YOURSELF WHEN YOU ARE STILL IN THAT ADMINISTRATION.

SHE ENTERED THIS 107 DAY CAMPAIGN WITH SO MANY HEADWINDS, MANY OF THEM WERE BECAUSE OF THE BIDEN-HARRIS OF MINISTRATION, THE ECONOMY THEY SIMPLY WAS NOT ENOUGH TO OVERCOME AND OVERTAKE THAT.

ON THE DEMOCRACY ARGUMENT WAS NOT ALSO ENOUGH TO WIN THE DAY.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO BE DIGGING IN WITH OUR GUESTS, WORLD LEADERS RIGHT AFTER.

BUT VERY QUICKLY, IN THE LAST 30 SECONDS, PRESIDENT BIDEN ALSO TRIED TO BURNISH HIS OWN LEGACY.

HE TRIED TO SAY, HOPEFULLY, NOW THE ISSUE OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND FAIR ELECTIONS AND SECURE AND SAFE ELECTIONS WILL BE LAID TO REST.

THAT WAS A CLEAR DIG AT TRUMP AND HIS ACOLYTES OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

>> IT ACTUALLY WAS BECAUSE BASICALLY WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS LOOK, THERE ARE NO CLAIMS OF VOTER FRAUD IF TRUMP WINS.

ON THAT SCORE, HE'S RIGHT, BUT IN TERMS OF BURNISHING HIS OWN LEGACY, CHRISTIANE, AT THIS MOMENT, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ASSESS HISTORY IN THE MOMENT BUT IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SEE HIS --LOOKING VERY KIND ON THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO LEAD TO THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY ONCE AGAIN.

THIS IS PART OF HIS LEGACY.

HE OF COURSE IS AWARE OF THAT, BUT HIS DECISION TO RUN FOR RE- ELECTION AND ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO COMPLETE THE TASKS AND THEN HARRIS LOSING WILL BE A CENTRAL PART OF WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAPPENS UNDER HIS WATCH.

>> JEFF, THANK YOU, AND MANY EUROPEAN --ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH ALL THIS.

THEY ARE AMONG THE MANY HEADS OF STATE AND GOVERNMENT CONGRATULATING DONALD TRUMP AFTER TUESDAY'S VICTORY.

FRANCE, EMMANUEL MACRON -- ALL SAY THAT THEY WELCOME THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH HIM AGAIN.

THE HUNGARIAN PRIME MINISTER, THE CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE EU COUNCIL AND A CLOSE TRUMP ALLY SAYS HE WOULD CELEBRATE THE VICTORY WITH SEVERAL BOTTLES OF CHAMPAGNE.

AND IN FINLAND, ONE OF NATO'S NEWEST MEMBERS, ALEXANDER STUB NOTED THAT THEY WERE CLOSE ALLIES ON MANY FRONTS, INCLUDING SECURITY, TECHNOLOGY, AND SO MANY BUSINESSES.

TERRACE ON EUROPEAN GOODS, AND HIS VOLATILE POSITION ON NATO, WORKING TOGETHER MAY BE A TALL ORDER.

>>> PRESIDENT ALEXANDER 2012 FROM HELSINKI PRESIDENT ALEXANDER STUBB JOINTLY FROM HELSINKI.

THE FRONT -- DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS LIKE?

PEOPLE CALLED HIM THE CHAOS AGENT.

THERE IS SORT OF A SENSE OF A COLLECTIVE NERVOUS BREAKDOWN HAPPENING FOR FOUR YEARS AROUND THE WORLD?

>> I THINK THAT WAS PROBABLY A BAD TIME.

THERE WAS MORE OF A SENSE OF SURPRISE BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT, INCLUDING THE POLLSTERS, THAT HILLARY CLINTON WOULD WIN THE ELECTION AND I THINK EUROPE WAS THEN TRYING TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE NEW PRESIDENT CALLED DONALD TRUMP BUT NOW THIS TIME AROUND, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT DONALD TRUMP STANDS FOR.

I THINK ON FOREIGN POLICY, VERY CLEAR, SO IN MANY WAYS, YOU COULD SAY THAT A LOT OF EUROPEAN LEADERS ARE MUCH BETTER PREPARED AND PROBABLY THEY ARE MUCH MORE WILLING AND ABLE TO COOPERATE.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU'VE GOT TO WORK WITH THE NEXT PRESIDENT.

I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO DISS ONE AND PRAISE ANOTHER ONE.

I ASKED JEFF ZELENY, THE COORS LIGHT ABOUT HIS LEGACY.

INFORMED POLICY, PARTICULARLY NATO POLICY, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY HIS STRENGTHS AND LEGACY WOULD BE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE STARTING POINT FOR SMALL COUNTRY LIKE FINLAND IS BOTH JOE BIDEN AS PRESIDENT AND AT THE TIME PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTED FINNISH NATIVE --NATO MEMBERSHIP AND THAT MEANT A LOT TO US.

I THINK IT WAS A LOT TO GRAPPLE DURING THIS FOR YEAR PERIOD IT ALL STARTED, OF COURSE, ON THE 24th OF FEBRUARY, 2022, WHEN RUSSIA ATTACKED UKRAINE, SO IN THAT SENSE, I THINK AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY HAS BEEN QUITE STEADFAST, AND I WOULD ARGUE, ESPECIALLY IN THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, THAT HE WAS VERY MUCH A CROSS PARTY LINE THAT WAS COMING FROM THE U.S. >> LET ME ASK YOU FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE SINCE YOU ARE A NEW NATO MEMBER AND PUBLIC OPINION SHIFTED IN YOUR COUNTRY TO ALLOW YOU TO JOIN BECAUSE OF THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF FULL- SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

THERE IS A HUGE DEBATE IN WASHINGTON AS TO WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO TO RESOLVE OR TO CONTINUE THIS, CERTAINLY THE AMERICAN HELP FOR UKRAINE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT AND CAN YOU PICK UP ANY SLACK?

>> WELL, I THINK THE STARTING POINT IS TO SAY THAT WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER WITH UKRAINE AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO, I THINK, TAKE PRESIDENT TRUMP AT FACE VALUE IT, AND OF COURSE, HE'S TALKED A LOT ABOUT GETTING HE'S DONE BOTH IN UKRAINE AND IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND I THINK THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS FROM WHEN THE ELECTION RESULTS CAME TO PROBABLY INAUGURATION DAY AND THEN WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

YOU KNOW, MY STARTING POINT, ZELENSKYY WILL PROBABLY NEED FOUR THINGS, ONE IS TERRITORY, TO SECURITY AND SECURITY GUARANTEES, NUMBER THREE IS JUSTICE, SO RUSSIAN WAR CRIMINALS INDICTED, AND THE NUMBER FOUR IS RECONSTRUCTION AND I'M SURE THAT PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP ELECT IN HIS ADMINISTRATION ARE ALREADY WORKING WITH THE UKRAINIANS ON THAT.

AND FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAD A PHONE CALL ALREADY YESTERDAY.

>> THEY CERTAINLY DID AND TRUMP HAS SAID I CAN FIX THIS WAR IN ONE DAY.

BUT HE'S NEVER SAID WHO HE WANTS TO WIN.

>> I MEAN I THINK THE STARTING POINT THERE IS, FOR MY PERSPECTIVE AT LEAST BECAUSE THE WAR IS EXISTENTIAL, THAT POLITICALLY, YOU COULD SAY THAT UKRAINE HAS ALREADY WON BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT WAS THE AIM OF PRESIDENT PUTIN.

IT WAS TO SPLIT EUROPE, SPLIT NATO, AND MAKE SURE THAT NATO -- WHAT DO YOU GET?

HE GOT A EUROPEAN OR EUROPE, HE GOT A UNIFIED UNION HE GOT A TRANSATLANTIC PARTNERSHIP, HE GOT A REJUVENATED NATO AND OF COURSE FINLAND NOW DOUBLED THE BORDER WITH RUSSIA.

IN THAT SENSE, I WOULD ARGUE THAT POLITICALLY, UKRAINE IS ALREADY WON.

>> CAN I TALK TO YOU ABOUT MORE GENERAL IMPERATIVES HERE?

SO YOU TALKED ABOUT UNITY.

WE HAVE BEEN READING AND LISTENING TO SOME OF THE ANALYSIS SINCE THIS ELECTION.

YOU KNOW, IT'S POTENTIALLY SOME COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO SORT OF BUILD ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH DONALD TRUMP AND YOU KNOW, FLOCKING TO MAR-A- LAGO.

LET ME JUST TWEET, LET ME READ WHAT --THE FORMER U.S. -- AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S. FOR FRANCE SAID.

EXPECT YOUR CANS TO FLOCK TO MAR-A-LAGO IN DROVES TO DEMAND PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT OVER THEIR NEIGHBORS.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THIS COULD BE A DIVIDE AND CONQUER MOMENT?

>> WELL, NOT REALLY, BUT I DO HAVE TO ADMIT THAT THE FOREIGN POLICY IN TODAY'S WORLD IS PROBABLY A LITTLE MORE TRANSACTIONAL THAN WHAT IT USED TO BE.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, WHETHER WITH TRUMP OR WITH BIDEN, AS BEEN VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON FORGING ALLIANCES, THOSE ALLIANCES HAVE EITHER BEEN BILATERAL, TRILATERAL, AS WAS THE CASE WITH QUAD, WHERE YOU HAVE JAPAN UNITED STATES AND AUSTRALIA TOGETHER WITH THE U.S., AND THEN OF COURSE THEY ARE REGIONAL AS THEY ARE WITH NATO AND WITHIN THAT, YOU HAVE THOSE GUYS WHO TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN DEFENSE, LIKE FINLAND.

THEY WILL OF COURSE HAVE A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER WITH THE BITING MINISTRATION OR WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO THE UNITED STATES HAS PUT FOR A LONG TIME ALREADY THEIR INTEREST FIRST AND THAT MEANS THAT SOME BILATERAL RELATIONS ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BE DEEPER THAN OTHERS.

FINLAND, FOR INSTANCE, A SECURITY PROVIDER, LONG BORDER WITH RUSSIA.

WE HAVE A DCA AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES, A DEFENSE CORPORATION AGREEMENT.

WE ARE COUNTRY YOU CAN TRUST AND IT'S IN OUR INTEREST TO HAVE VERY CLOSE RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS A VERY CLOSE ALLY TOWERS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION OF TRUMP PROOFING?

THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY THIS, IF TRUMP DECIDES TO CHANGE THE TERMS OF NATO PROTECTION AND ALL THE THINGS THAT HE SAID BEFORE, WE HAVE HEARD PRESIDENT MACRON, WHO IS IN BUDAPEST.

THERE WAS A BIG MEETING TODAY OF EUROPEAN LEADERS, ZELENSKYY WAS THERE, AS WELL.

HE HAS SAID EUROPE MUST STOP OUTSOURCING ITS SECURITY AND WRITE ITS OWN DESTINY.

YOU KNOW THERE'S AN IDEA THAT BANDING TOGETHER WITH GERMANY, THE TWO BIG POWERS IN EUROPE, BOTH OF THEM ARE VERY, VERY GRIEVOUSLY WOUNDED.

MACRON KIND OF SHOT HIMSELF IN THE FOOT WITH THAT ELECTION THAT HE BASICALLY LOST, HE'S GOT A MASSIVE BUDGET HOLE.

HIS COALITION, IT'S PHONE APART.

WHERE DO YOU THINK EUROPE STANDS IN TERMS OF BEING SELF- SUFFICIENT?

>> TWO POINTS ON THIS.

FIRST, EUROPE NEEDS THE UNITED STATES AND THE UNITED STATES NEEDS EUROPE.

BECAUSE THE U.S.

WANTS TO BE A SUPERPOWER AND IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH CHINA, IT NEEDS ALLIES.

THOSE CLOSEST ALLIES COME FROM EUROPE, THEY ARE ABOUT 40 OF US WHO HAVE BOTH THE SAME VALUES AND INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES HAVE.

NOW ONE THING THAT I TELL MY EUROPEAN COLLEAGUES IS IT'S TIME TO START TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN SECURITY A LITTLE BIT MORE AND WHAT WE WILL SEE WITH A NEW TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, I THINK CORRECTLY SO, HE IS GOING TO FORCE OR AT LEAST PERSUADE EUROPEAN STATES TO INCREASE THEIR DEFENSE BUDGETS AND REMEMBER, IN 2014, THERE WERE ONLY THREE COUNTRIES IN NATO THAT HIT THAT 2% MARGIN.

NOW THERE ARE 23 SO THE MOVEMENT IS ALREADY THERE BUT I WOULD ARGUE THAT WE ARE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE TO INCREASE OUR DEFENSE AND EXPENDITURE AND THEN THE WAY IN WHICH IT HAPPENS IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

I THINK WE DO IT FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES WANTS IT AND TWO BECAUSE IT'S IN OUR SELF INTEREST IN THE CURRENT SECURITY POLITICAL SITUATION.

>> JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS SIGNED A RIGHT -- SOUND BITE.

I KNOW IT'S REPEATING WHAT YOU SAID BUT THIS IS ALSO THE VIEW OF THE NEW NATO SECRETARY- GENERAL.

>> WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT, HE WAS -- WHO STIMULATED US TO MOVE OVER THE 2% AND NOW, ALSO, THANKS TO HIM, NATO, IF YOU TAKE OUT THE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. FOR A MOMENT, IS ABOUT THE THANKS VERY MUCH TO HIS DOING IN HIS SUCCESS AND WE NEED TO DO MORE.

WE KNOW THIS.

>> SO I JUST WANT TO PUT THAT OUT THERE.

YOU COMMENTED ON.

YOU KNOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT ALLIANCES.

TRUMP IS NOTORIOUSLY SKEPTICAL OF ALLIANCES AND IT WAS CONSIDERED WHEN BIDEN BECAME PRESIDENT THAT HE DID A LOT TO RESTORE THE STRENGTH OF THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE.

SO ON ONE ISSUE, IF DONALD TRUMP DECIDES THAT AMERICA WILL NO LONGER PAY THAT AMOUNT TO UKRAINE, DELIVER THAT AMOUNT OF WEAPONS TO UKRAINE, KEN EUROPE, DOES EUROPE HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO FILL THE NECESSARY GAP?

>> WELL EUROPE HAS ALREADY FILLED THE NECESSARY GAP, I THINK THERE'S THIS NARRATIVE THAT THE U.S. HAS DONE MORE THAN EUROPE, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

IT'S ABOUT 50-50.

IF YOU THEN START LOOKING AT, SAY, GDP PER CAPITA, FINLAND IS THE FIFTH BIGGEST DONOR.

IF YOU, OF COURSE, LOOK AT RAW DONATIONS, THEN IT COMES FROM THE U.S., AND I DO THINK THAT EUROPE NEEDS TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY, BUT THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE INCENTIVES ALSO TO START ENDING THE WAR OR TRYING TO FIND SOME KIND OF A PEACE SETTLEMENT.

I THINK THE MONEY FUNNELS AT THE END OF THE DAY ARE GOING TO BE A LITTLE MORE IN A WIN-WIN SITUATION BECAUSE OF COURSE, WHEN THE WAR IS OVER, IT'S GOING BE ALL ABOUT RECONSTRUCTION AND SUDDENLY, WE ARE GOING TO START SEEING A LOT OF COMPANIES, EUROPEAN AMERICAN AND OTHERS WHO WANT TO COME AND DO THE RECONSTRUCTION OF UKRAINE BUT I DO THINK THAT EUROPEANS UNDERSTAND THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY BUT WE WILL SURVIVE AND WE WILL SURVIVE TOGETHER WITH THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO ON THE OTHER ISSUE, YOU ARE ONCE, I BELIEVE, FINANCE MINISTER AND AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS LITERALLY SAID HE LOVES TARIFFS.

TARIFFS IS THE BEST WORD IN THE DICTIONARY AND HE'S GOING TO SLAP SOME 20% TARIFFS ON JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY.

NOW WE WILL SEE WHETHER HE PICKS AND CHOOSES AND WHAT HE DOES BUT HE'S DONE IT BEFORE.

THIS IS WHAT AN EXPERT TOLD THE NEW YORK TIMES.

A TRUMP VICTORY IS VERY PAINFUL FOR EUROPEANS AS IT CONFRONTS HIM WITH A QUESTION THAT THEY'VE TRIED TO HIDE FROM.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH UNITED STATES THAT SEES US MORE AS A COMPETITOR AND A NUISANCE THAN A FRIEND TO WORK WITH.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT?

AND WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE RESULT OF THE MASSIVE TARIFF REGIME?

>> HERE IS WHERE I PUT MY FORMER TRADE MINISTER HAT ON, WHICH IS PROBABLY EVEN MORE RELEVANT THAN THE FINANCE MINISTER HAD IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

I BELONG, OF COURSE, TO THE CATEGORY OF FREE TRADERS.

SO I BELIEVE THAT FREE TRADE ACTUALLY IMPROVES AND GIVES ECONOMIC GROWTH AND STEALTH AND DEVELOPMENT.

NOW, I THINK WE HAVE TO PICK AND CHOOSE HERE A LITTLE BIT.

THERE WILL PROBABLY BE TARIFFS PUT UP BY THE UNITED STATES IN SOME AREAS.

SOME OF THEM WILL GO TO EUROPE, SOME OF THEM WILL GO ELSEWHERE, BUT I THINK THE KEY HERE IS TO TRY AND BUILD CONFIDENCE SO THAT EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES CAN HAVE AS MUCH FREE OF COURSE, A COMPETITORS CHINA, THEN THE U.S.

NEEDS TO CONSIDER IN WHICH DIRECTIONS THE TARIFFS GO.

THE COUNTRY, SAY, LIKE FINLAND, WHO HAVE A LOT TO GIVE ON, FOR INSTANCE, NAVAL --MOBILE NETWORKS.

NOTE YET IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OR ON QUANTUM TECHNOLOGY AND QUANTUM COMPUTERS.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT WE CAN DO WITH THE UNITED STATES BUT OF COURSE, WE WILL HAVE TO SEE HOW THINGS SETTLE, WHAT KIND OF TARIFFS MIGHT COME INTO PLAY.

THERE'S ONE LITTLE SORT OF REMINDER, EUROPE DOES HAVE EXCLUSIVE COMPETENCE, SO THE YIELD DECIDES ON TRADE, ON MONETARY POLICY AND COMPETITION.

SO THERE IT IS REALLY, BRUSSELS DECIDES AND HAS THE DISCUSSION WITH THE UNITED STATES.

>> OKAY.

SO THE ANALYSIS IS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS ESSENTIALLY IDENTIFIED TRADE AND IMMIGRATION, MIGRATION, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT AS THE BIG ISSUES OF HIS TIME OF HAS ABSOLUTELY PUSH THIS ISSUE FAR TO THE RIGHT.

WE JUST TALKED ABOUT TARIFFS AND PROTECTIONISM AND WE KNOW WHAT HE WANTS TO DO WITH IMMIGRATION, MASS DEPORTATION.

AND THE THING IS, THAT IS THE CASE ALL OVER EUROPE RIGHT NOW I MEAN, EVEN MORE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT, IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT ARE TAKING MUCH, MUCH MORE TOUGH AND MORE RIGHT WING POLICIES ON MIGRATION.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT TRUMP AND PEOPLE LIKE GEORGIA MALONEY AND -- ALL THESE PEOPLE HAVE PUSHED EUROPE MUCH FURTHER TO A NATIONALIST RIGHT?

>> OH, DEFINITELY.

THE MEGATREND THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS TO THE RIGHT.

SO IF THERE WAS A PENDULUM, SAY AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR, IT WAS ALL ABOUT MARKET, MARKET, FREEDOM, FREEDOM, FREEDOM.

I'M INCLUDING FREE MOVEMENT AND IMMIGRATION.

NOW THAT TREND HAS SWUNG OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE AND I THINK IT ALREADY STARTED SOME TIME DURING THE FINANCIAL CRISIS BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT NOT COMFORTABLE WITH SAY, THE CAPITALIST FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE, HIT MORTGAGES, IT HIT JOBS, IT HIT GROWTH, AND SUDDENLY, PEOPLE FELT QUITE SORT OF DISORIENTED.

GLOBALIZATION WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A GOOD THING TO US AND ESPECIALLY TO ME, AND THEN SUDDENLY, YOU ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE IT DIDN'T.

OF COURSE, REX IT -- BREXIT WAS A MANIFESTATION OF THAT.

THAT IS THE MEGATREND THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IN 2024 BUT I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR THE BETTER PART OF AT LEAST 15 YEARS.

>> AND YOU THINK IT WILL CONTINUE OR DO YOU THINK THERE IS A SWING BACK TO BE HAD?

>> THERE'S ALWAYS A SWING BACK.

AT SOME STAGE, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, IN THE WORLD ORDER IN GENERAL, RIGHT NOW, THERE IS THIS REJECTION OF MULTILATERALISM, OF RULES, FREE TRADE, OF INSTITUTIONS, OF THE WTO, OF THE U.N., AND WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT WE LIVE NOW NOT IN A BIPOLAR, NOT IN A UNIPOLAR, BUT A MULTIPOLAR WORLD AND WITH THIS MULTI- POLARITY COMES CHAOS.

IN ORDER TO CONTAIN THAT CHAOS, WE NEED MULTILATERAL.

WE NEED RULES BUT SOMEONE NEEDS TO START SETTING THEM.

I'M JUST AFRAID IT'S GOING TO TAKE 5 TO 10 YEARS BEFORE THINGS START TO SETTLE.

WITH OR WITHOUT DONALD TRUMP, BUT HE'S GOING TO BE SUCH A KEY PLAYER IN THIS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S REALLY AN INTERESTING POINT TO CLOSE WITH.

PRESIDENT STUBB, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM HELSINKI.

>>> WE TALKED ABOUT UKRAINE, IT MAY BE THE MOST DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY DONALD TRUMP RETURN.

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY -- PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH APPROACH BUT THE INCOMING PRESIDENT AND HIS VICE PRESIDENT REPEATEDLY CAST DOUBT ON AMERICA'S COMMITMENT TO UKRAINE DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

NOW ANDRII ZAHORODNIUK IS THE FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER FROM UKRAINE AND HE'S JOINING US FROM WESTERN UKRAINE.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM AND PERSPECTIVE.

IN THE WAKE OF A NEW DIRECTION IN AMERICAN LEADERSHIP.

AND EVEN CONGRESS IS POSSIBLY GOING TO BE ALL REPUBLICAN.

PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH.

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT?

>> WELL, THE SITUATION IS THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN IS CLEARLY ADAMANT TO KEEP A WAR ON UKRAINE AND THE ONLY THING WHICH CAN STOP HIM IS THAT WE CONSTRUCT THE PERSPECTIVE THAT HE LOSES.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY.

IF WE CLEARLY SEES THE PERSPECTIVE OF LOSING AND HE SEES --EITHER ECONOMIC OR MILITARY OR BOTH.

THEN HE WILL CONSIDER THE IDEAS OF SOMEHOW STOPPING THE WAR AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO CONSTRUCT.

ALL OTHER OPTIONS ARE NOT GOING BEING TRIED FOR AT LEAST THE LAST 10 YEARS AND THAT NEVER WORKED.

SO THAT'S A PERSON WHO UNDERSTANDS ONLY HIS STRENGTHS.

STRENGTHS OF THE OTHER SIDE AND IF HE SEES THE STRENGTHS, IF HE SEES THE OPPORTUNITY THAT HIS POSITION MAY BE EXTREMELY VULNERABLE, EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, THEN HE WOULD CONSIDER SOME SORT OF NEGOTIATIONS OR SOME SORT OF WAY OUT AND STOPPING THE WAR.

SO FAR, HE DOESN'T SEE THAT AND HE'S CONTINUING AND CLEARLY, WE CAN SEE FROM THE NEXT YOUR BUDGET THAT THEY ARE GOING TO COMMIT A LOT OF MONEY, TENS OF BILLIONS INTO THE WAR AND OBVIOUSLY, THAT JUST, IT'S A HUGE ISSUE FOR US.

>> LET ME STOP YOU FOR A SECOND.

I NEED TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ON THIS.

PUTIN HAS SAID THAT DONALD TRUMP'S CLAIM TO BE ABLE TO END THIS WAR IN ONE DAY, WHICH IS WHAT HE SAID IS AN OVER EXAGGERATION AND YOU SAY, WHAT MANY ANALYSTS SAY, THAT YES, STRENGTH IS THE ONLY THING THAT PUTIN UNDERSTANDS.

SO WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO A, YOU KNOW, A J.D.

VANCE OR, LET ME JUST PLAY WITH J.D.

VANCE HAS SAID ABOUT IT AND THE FACT THAT THEY BELIEVE YOU SHOULD ESSENTIALLY SUE FOR PEACE.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> WHAT THIS LOOKS LIKE IS TRUMP SITS DOWN, HE SAYS THAT RUSSIANS, THE UKRAINIANS, THE EUROPEANS, YOU GUYS NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS A PEACEFUL SETTLEMENT LOOK LIKE, AND WHAT IT PROBABLY LOOKS LIKE IT'S SOMETHING LIKE THE CURRENT LINE OF DEMARCATION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, THAT BECOMES LIKE A DEMILITARIZED ZONE.

IT'S HEAVILY FORTIFIED SO THE RUSSIANS DON'T INVADE AGAIN.

>> DOES THAT SOUND LIKE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU?

>> THIS IS NOT THE WAR OF OUR TERRITORY.

THIS IS A WAR OF EXISTENCE OF UKRAINE, IT'S EXISTENTIAL FOR UKRAINE AND THIS IS A WAR ABOUT THE WORLD ORDER, INTERNATIONAL, ET CETERA.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT SOME REGIONS OR SOME VILLAGES OR SOME TOWNS.

WE HAVE SEEN QUITE A LOT OF IDEAS COMING FROM ALL KINDS OF -- AND POLICYMAKERS AND ANALYSTS SAYING THAT OH, IN ORDER TO GET THESE -- AND SO ON, THIS IS COMPLETELY A DEVIATION FROM ACTUALLY THE SITUATION.

PUTIN IS NOT WAGING THIS WAR TO GET SOME LITTLE BIT OF TERRITORY.

HIS GOALS ARE MUCH MORE STRATEGIC AND MUCH MORE SERIOUS AND MUCH BIGGER THAN THAT.

SO WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT AND IN ORDER FOR PUTIN TO STOP THE WAR, HE NEEDS TO BE SEEN VERY CLEARLY, AND THAT IS WHAT THE, THAT'S THE ONLY WAY IT CAN PRODUCE.

ANY IDEAS ABOUT, LET'S SUGGEST THAT UKRAINE GIVES UP SOMETHING LIKE, YOU KNOW, SOME REGION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ILLEGAL.

IT'S NOTHING LIKE THAT IN ANY LAWS AT ALL AND WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT LEGAL.

AND I DON'T THINK ANY DEMOCRATIC NATION WANTS TO BRING THIS INTO PRACTICE.

THAT WILL ALSO NOT STOP PUTIN THOUGH WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT -- WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS OF THE WAR AND PUTIN NEEDS TO SEE THAT HIS ENDEAVOR, HIS ADVENTURE FAILED.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU ON THE GROUND.

WE HAVE HEARD YOUR DEFENSE, THE CHIEF OF THE MILITARY GENERAL AND OTHERS, SENIOR LEADERS, INCLUDING SOLDIERS, DEFENDING ON THE GROUND.

I MEAN THINGS ARE VERY, VERY TOUGH, THEY SAY.

VERY TOUGH, EVEN WHERE YOU ALL DID AS A SURPRISE AND AS A SHOW OF STRENGTH AND, YOU KNOW, EASILY OCCUPIED THAT PART OF RUSSIAN TERRITORY, THEY ARE PUSHING YOU BACK, POORLY THEY'VE GOT NORTH KOREAN SOLDIERS.

IT'S REALLY BAD ON THE FRONT LINE.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS THAT AND WHAT IS THE NUMBER ONE THING YOU NEED?

>> CLEARLY, WE SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT THINGS WILL ALWAYS TOUGH.

AND THERE'S BEEN A TOUGH WORLD ALL THE WAY THROUGH FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS.

AND ALSO, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN FIGHTING IT, WITH ONE HAND TIED BACK BECAUSE WE ALWAYS HAVE SOME LIMITATIONS.

WE HAVE LIMITATIONS OF USING THE FIREPOWER, WE HAVE CONSTANT SHORTAGE OF THE WEAPONS AND WE HAVE A SHORTAGE OF SOME CLASSES OF WEAPONS.

FOR EXAMPLE, AIRPOWER.

NEVER FIGHT THE WAR LIKE THAT.

IT WILL ALWAYS BE A QUESTION OF LONG-RANGE POWER, LONG-RANGE FIREPOWER, WITH AIRPOWER AND SOMETHING TO KEEP THE ENEMY AWAY FROM THE FROM LINE.

AND WE HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THE WAR THE FRONT LINE ALL THE WAY THROUGH FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS.

SO YEAH.

THINGS ARE VERY EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AND WE CERTAINLY NEED THIS RESULT.

IS NOTHING NEW WHICH APPEARED OVER THE LAST WEEK OR MONTHS OF OUR REQUESTS AND OUR SORT OF PLEDGES TO THE ALLIES.

WE STILL NEED THEIR SHELLS, WE STILL NEED WEAPONS, WE STILL NEED GROUND-BASED DEFENSE.

BUT WE DO NEED TO BUMP UP THE LONG-RANGE FIREPOWER CAPABILITIES SUCH AS AIRPOWER AND MISSILES.

LIKE DON'T SHOOT AT RUSSIANS, DON'T SHOOT AT RUSSIAN LANE, THEY JUST DON'T MAKE MILITARILY ANY SENSE.

IF -- >> DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE UNDER A PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> WELL, WE DON'T KNOW, OF COURSE, BECAUSE THIS IS A NEW ADMINISTRATION AND THERE WILL BE A NEW POLICY AND WE WILL HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

ALL THAT WE HEAR FROM DONALD TRUMP, WHICH IS, I HAVE TO SAY, ENCOURAGING, IS THAT HE WANTS TO STOP THE WAR.

SO WE ALSO WANT TO STOP THE WAR.

WE WANT THE WAR TO END BECAUSE NOBODY IN UKRAINE ENJOYS THAT AT ALL AND WE OBVIOUSLY ALL WANT TO BE OVER.

AND THE ONLY THING IS THAT CONCESSIONS ARE NOT GOING TO STOP THE WAR.

THE ONLY THING WHICH CAN STOP THE WAR IS STRENGTH, WHICH WAS JUST SAID BEFORE.

SO, IF HE WANTS TO STOP THE WAR, REALLY, THEN HE WILL HAVE TO FACE THE REALITY THAT PUTIN -- THE NATURE OF PUTIN'S REGIME AND WE NEED TO SHOW HIS STRENGTH AND WE NEED TO SHOW A PERSPECTIVE OF LOSING AND WHAT GIVES US THE CHANCE TO STOP IT.

>> AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU NEED AND ALL YOUR OFFICIALS SAY IT, AND YOUR FRIEND MINORS, THAT YOU NEED MORE PEOPLE.

NOW WE KNOW THAT RUSSIA HAS LIMITLESS SUPPLIES OF PEOPLE, NO MATTER HOW CASUALTIES THERE ARE, THEY KEEP REPLACING THEM.

THEY PAID A LOT OF MONEY, WE UNDERSTAND FROM REPORTING.

THEY PAID RECRUITMENT FEES COFFIN FEES, DEATH FEES.

DO YOU THINK UKRAINE IS GOING TO HAVE TO RESORT TO THAT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BEING SUCCESSFUL AT THE MOMENT AS YOUR RECRUITMENT DRIVE.

>> WE ACTUALLY ARE SUCCESSFUL.

WE ARE ALREADY BRINGING A VERY SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF PEOPLE INTO THE ARMED FORCES.

WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT WE SHOULDN'T PLAY RUSSIAN PLAYBOOK ON THE WAR.

WE CANNOT HAVE THIS WAR AS A LAND-BASED IN A FRONTLINE LIKE LIKE FRONTLINE PEOPLE CLASH BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY TO LOSE MORE PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.

WE NEED TO KEEP THE WAR AS A KEEP THE ENEMY OUTSIDE OF THE FRONT LINE AND THAT IS HOW NATO WOULD FIGHT THAT WAR BECAUSE THE WAR IS CURRENTLY HERE ON THE FRONT LINE IS NOT THE ONE WHICH ANY NATO GENERAL WOULD WANT TO WORK WITH AND TO FIGHT WITH.

THE THING IS, ABOUT THE CAPABILITIES, WHICH WOULD GIVE US AN ADVANTAGE, THESE CAPABILITIES ARE VERY WELL KNOWN TO ALL NATO GENERALS INVOLVED IN THIS MATTER AND THIS HAS BEEN VERY CLEARLY COMMUNICATED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE THREE YEARS OF THE CAMPAIGN AND ALL WE NEED IS A POLICY WHICH WILL ALLOW US TO FAST-TRACK THIS CAPABILITIES AND TO USE THEM PROPERLY SO WE CAN ACTUALLY KEEP THE -- OUTSIDE OF UKRAINE.

AND TECHNICALLY, IS IT POSSIBLE?

ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE.

OTHER CAPABILITIES FOR THAT?

YES THERE ARE.

WHAT'S REQUIRED IS EXLEY POLICY AND THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF POSSIBILITY.

THIS IS A MATTER OF CHOICE.

WE DO HOPE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WILL MAKE IT RIGHTEOUS.

>> LET ME JUST SAY, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PROMISED ANOTHER 425 MILLION NEW MILITARY ASSISTANCE DOLLARS.

THE STATE DEPARTMENT, I'M GOING TO RESIST.

THIS LATEST PACKAGE DEMONSTRATES THE U.S.

COMMITMENT TO SEARCH SECURITY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE THAT CONGRESS HAS AUTHORIZED.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN CLEAR THAT WE WOULD UTILIZE AS MUCH OF THE AUTHORITY THAT CONGRESS HAS AUTHORIZED IN SUPPORT OF UKRAINE AS POSSIBLE BEFORE HE LEAVES OFFICE.

JUST TO BE CLEAR, DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE STUFF THAT'S ALREADY BEEN PROMISED?

>> WE RECEIVED, SOME OF THE STUFF, WHICH HAS BEEN PROMISED, AND WE KEEP RECEIVING, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, DO WE RECEIVE ENOUGH TO WIN, DO WE RECEIVE ENOUGH?

NO.

AND THAT IS VERY CLEAR AND THAT'S BEEN THE CASE AGAIN FOR A WHILE NOW.

WE WELCOME U.S. GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

WE EXTREMELY APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT FROM THE U.S. PEOPLE BUT WE DO NEED TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THIS GAME.

WE NEED TO INSTALL NEW CAPABILITIES INTO THE CREATE THAT ADVANTAGE, WHICH WOULD SET THAT SORT OF NEW BASE OF THE WAR, WHICH WILL BRING THE IDEA THAT HE'S ACTUALLY GOING TO LOSE IT.

THIS IS STILL TO BE BUILT.

AND THE PACKAGE WHICH HAS BEEN PROMISED IS GOING TO KEEP US GOING BUT THIS IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THINGS DRAMATICALLY.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE WAR.

IS VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.

IF WE WERE UP TO SET A PIECE IN THE REGION, THAT CAN ONLY REBUILD THROUGH THE STRENGTHS, THROUGH THE CORRECT POLICY AND DO THE CORRECT CAPABILITIES, WHICH ARE BROUGHT ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> ANDRII ZAHORODNIUK, FORMER UKRAINE DEFENSE MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> WHILE THE WORLD IS WONDERING WHAT A SECOND DONALD TRUMP TERM WILL BRING, MANY ARE FALLING BACK ON THEIR MEMORIES OF TRUMP, THE CHAOS AGENT DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

JONATHAN MARTIN HAS WRITTEN ALL ABOUT THAT TURBULENT TIME AS CO- AUTHOR OF THIS WILL NOT PASS.

FOR POLITICO AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE IMPLICATIONS OF TRUMP'S RE- ELECTION AND WHAT WENT WRONG FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND JONATHAN MARTIN.

WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

PRECINCT BY PRECINCT AND AFTER THIS ELECTION WAS THAT DEMOCRATS DON'T HAVE A HARRIS OR BIDEN PROBLEM, THEIR CHALLENGES ARE FAR DEEPER.

THEY HAVE A VOTER PROBLEM.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> A PROJECTION FROM THE ELECTORATE.

IT'S AKIN TO A COMPANY THAT'S TRYING TO SELL A PRODUCT AND THE CUSTOMERS DON'T WANT TO BUY THE PRODUCT.

WHEN PROCTER & GAMBLE OR APPLE OR WHOEVER ELSE FACES THAT CHALLENGE, BOY, THEY GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND THEY TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GIVE THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT AND THAT IS THE ONUS ON DEMOCRATS NOW.

THEY ARE BEING REJECTED BY A LARGE SWATH OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE WORKING CLASS, FRANKLY, OF AMERICA, ACROSS RACIAL LINES, AND WALTER, THAT WAS THE FOUNDATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC COALITION FOR MUCH OF THE 20th CENTURY, AS YOU KNOW, AND TO BE REJECTED BY THESE VOTERS WHO HAVE FAVORED A BILLIONAIRE, YOU KNOW, WHO IS COZYING UP WITH FELLOW BILLIONAIRES IS HUMILIATING FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT IT DOES SHOW TO THEM THAT THEY DO HAVE TO FIND THE MESSAGE THAT'S MORE APPEALING TO THE WORKING-CLASS CORE OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE SIMPLY CANNOT WIN -- LET ALONE FIND 51 SENATE SEATS WITH SUBURBANITES.

THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OUT THERE.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WORKING-CLASS.

WHAT TYPE OF ISSUES HAVE FAILED THE DEMOCRATS IN TRYING TO APPEAL TO THE WORKING CLASS?

IT USED TO BE THE PARTY OF THE WORKING-CLASS.

>> IT WAS THE PARTY OF THE WORKING MAN FOR DECADES AND I THINK, BUT HERE IS THE COMING FIGHT.

THE BERNIE SANDERS CROWD ON THE WE WERE NOT SUFFICIENTLY FOCUSED ON ECONOMIC POPULIST MESSAGE, THE PEOPLE VERSUS THE POWER.

WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO OUR POPULIST ROOTS AND DRIFT AWAY FROM THIS KIND OF PROTO- CORPORATISM, MUCH MORE FRIENDLY TO A HIGH INCOME EARNER.

OTHER FOLKS IN THE PARTY ARE GOING TO SAY LET'S BE HONEST, CULTURE AND IDENTITY AND WE ARE TALKING TOO MUCH.

TO SOUND LIKE THE FACULTY CLUB TO BORROW A LINE FROM -- AND WE ARE USING LANGUAGE THAT'S ALIENATING TO THESE FOLKS WHO ARE NOT AS FIXATED ON IDENTITY AS THE ELITES IN AMERICA ARE AND THAT IS THE CHALLENGE FOR US.

THAT'S THE COMING DEBATE.

ECONOMICS OR IDENTITY, FRANKLY.

>> LET'S UNPACK BOTH OF THOSE AND START WITH THE ECONOMICS.

YOU MENTIONED BERNIE SANDERS.

>> YEAH.

>> AFTER THE ELECTION, HE SHOULD SAY HE SAID IT SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRISE THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHICH HAS ABANDONED WORKING-CLASS PEOPLE CLASS HAS ABANDONED THEM.

FIRST, IT WAS THE WHITE WORKING CLASS, NOW IT'S LATINO AND BLACK WORKERS, AS WELL.

SHOULD THE DEMOCRATS HAVE FOUGHT AGAINST CORPORATE AND GREED AND OTHER THINGS AND FOUGHT FOR THE WORKING-CLASS MORE?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IS THE CRITIQUE.

FROM BERNIE SANDERS WAS MOSTLY A GOOD SOLDIER DURING THE CAMPAIGN BUT IS HONESTLY TELLING US HOW HE REALLY FEELS.

I THINK THERE ARE CLEARLY AREAS WHERE DEMOCRATS COULD HAVE DONE MORE TO GO AFTER TRUMP ON CLASS RELATED ISSUES.

THE ONE THAT STICKS OUT IN MY MIND IS WHEN HE BRAGGED ABOUT NOT PAYING OVERTIME TO THE PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR HIM AND FOUND OTHER WORKERS TO REPLACE THEM.

I MEAN YOU TALK ABOUT A GIFT FROM THE GODS, HERE SOMEBODY WHO IS PROMISING TO END TAXES ON OVERTIME BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE CLAIMED HE NEVER PAID OVERTIME TO HIS OWN WORKERS.

NOT CAPITALIZING ON THAT, I THINK, WAS, IN FACT, A HUGE MISTAKE.

>> LET ME GO BACK TO THE BROADER THING, WHICH IS THE POPULISM.

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY DEMOCRATS WHO ARE ABLE TO KEEP A POPULIST MESSAGE, WHETHER IT WOULD BE JIMMY CARTER OR BILL CLINTON EARLY ON.

BUT WHAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO AND WHAT I THINK BERNIE SANDERS IS TALKING ABOUT IS REALLY EMBRACING POPULISM.

>> YEAH, LOOK.

BIDEN WAS ABLE TO DO THAT AT TIMES BECAUSE HE HAD SORT OF A LABOR HISTORY AND LIKE TALKING ABOUT UNIONS.

AND YOU KNOW, BUT IT WAS NEVER REALLY HARRIS'S FORTE.

SHE COMES OUT OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT BACKGROUND IN THE BAY AREA.

SHE IS NOT REALLY A CLASS WARRIOR, IT WASN'T THE KIND OF NATURAL LANGUAGE FOR HER TO USE.

I JUST DON'T THINK IT WAS, IT WAS OBVIOUSLY HER APPROACH.

ALSO, WALKER, DEMOCRATS, I THINK, HAVE BEEN SO FIXATED ON DRIVING THEIR NUMBERS IN THE SUBURBS AND TRYING TO DRIVE A WEDGE THROUGH THE OLDER REPUBLICAN COALITION, TALKING ABOUT ABORTION RIGHTS, TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND DONALD TRUMP SORT OF LOW CHARACTER.

GALVANIZING HIGH INCOME EARNERS IN THE SUMMERS BUT AGAIN, DEMOCRATS DID JUST FIND, WITH A LOT OF THOSE VOTERS WHO ARE NOW BASICALLY DEMOCRATS OPERATIONALLY BUT THERE'S JUST SIMPLY NOT THE NUMBERS THERE, OKAY?

YOU JUST LOOK IN A PLACE LIKE A MICHIGAN OR A PENNSYLVANIA AND YOU CAN GET A HELL OF A LOT OF VOTES -- >> THE OTHER ISSUE, ABOUT BESIDE THE ECONOMIC ONE ARE THE CULTURAL ONE.

THE POPULIST ONES.

DEMOCRATS GETTING PAINTED AS THE PARTY OF TRANSGENDER ATHLETIC RIGHTS OR BATHROOM RIGHTS OR WHATEVER.

TO WHAT EXTENT WILL THOSE REAL ISSUES AND TO WHAT EXTENT DID A CUT AGAINST THE DEMOCRATS?

>> WELL, IN TERMS OF BEING A REAL ISSUE, I THINK IT'S NOT REALLY A REAL ISSUE.

MOST HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS TEAMS ARE DEALING WITH THIS.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW CASES BUT IT'S JUST A WEDGE FOR THE REPUBLICANS TO USE TO TRY TO SORT OF JAM DEMOCRATS AND MAKE THEM CHOOSE BETWEEN THEIR TRADITIONAL AFFINITY AND SUPPORT FOR MARGINALIZED CONSTITUENCIES LIKE THOSE IN THE LGBT COMMUNITY AND THE BROADER ELECTORATE THAT'S GOING TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH -- AND BOYS PLAYING IN GIRLS SPORTS AND OBVIOUSLY WORKED PRETTY WELL.

AND WALKER, MAYBE THE MOST MEMORABLE ACT THAT TRUMP RAN ON WAS THAT KAMALA HARRIS WANTS TO USE TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO PAY FOR TRANS SURGERY FOR PRISONERS, WHICH ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE A CONSERVATIVE PARITY, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE, THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN CALIFORNIA.

AND IT WAS A GIFT FROM THE GODS FOR THE REPUBLICANS WHO PUT THIS ON REPEAT IN TELEVISION ADS, IT RAN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THIS GETS TO THE HEART OF THE DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGERS.

LOSING, NOT JUST WORKERS, WALKER, BUT LOSING MEN.

LOOKING TO LOSE WORKING-CLASS MEN WHO, FROM A CULTURAL STANDPOINT JUST HAVE A HARD TIME SUPPORTING DEMOCRATS.

>> IT'S A PROBLEM ABOUT LOSING MEN PARTLY A SEXISM AGAINST A WOMAN CANDIDATE?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT'S DIFFICULT FOR A WOMAN TO GET ELECTED PRESIDENT IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TWO EXAMPLES OF THAT AND WE WOULD BE NAIVE TO SAY OTHERWISE.

IT'S EVEN HARDER WHEN SHE'S A BLACK WOMAN.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THAT WAS A CHALLENGE FOR HARRIS, THAT THAT OBVIOUSLY WAS SOMETHING THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING BEYOND BUT I THINK THE GROUND WAS SOMEHOW, IN SOME WAYS LAID FOR HER IN WAYS THAT ARE EVEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR HER BECAUSE THERE'S THE PRE-EXISTING STRUCTURAL CHALLENGE FOR DEMOCRATS AS BEING THIS PARTY OF THE SO-CALLED WOKE.

I WROTE SOMETHING IN OCTOBER AND I READY, FOR HARRIS, SHE WAS NOT THE FACULTY CLUB TYPE.

SHE'S NOT DOING THE LINKAGE POLICE.

SHE WOULD'VE BEEN PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE, I THINK, SORT OF TAKING A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

WOULD'VE HAD CREDIBILITY TO DO IT AS A BLACK WOMAN IN A SORT OF PUZZLING THAT SHE WOULDN'T HAVE DONE MORE OF THAT.

SORT OF TAKING A STAND, A SISTER SOLDIER DURING THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE EXCESSES OF THE CAMPUS LANGUAGE POLICE.

I THINK SHE COULD'VE DONE THAT AND IT MAY HAVE HELPED.

>> YOU SAID THAT, IN ONE WAY, SHE COULD'VE GONE WAS TO RUN A MORE POPULIST -- YOU SAID SHE SHOULD RUN TO THE CENTER A BIT MORE.

A MODERATE.

EXPLAIN WHY AND HOW THAT WOULD'VE WORKED AND WHY SHE DIDN'T DO IT.

WELL, LOOK.

THERE ARE WAYS THAT YOU CAN LEVEL POPULIST TO TAX AGAINST DONALD TRUMP ON ISSUES OF ECONOMIC FAIRNESS LIKE THE OVERTIME ISSUE BUT STILL BROADLY AND TOTALLY, REASSURE VOTERS IN THE POLITICAL CENTER THAT YOU ARE GOING TO GOVERN FROM THE CENTER.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT BILL CLINTON AND BARACK OBAMA UNDERSTOOD INTUITIVELY.

YOU CONSTANTLY HAVE TO PRACTICE DEFENSIVE POLITICS IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS THE CENTER TO CENTER RIGHT, AND BY THE WAY, IT CERTAINLY CENTER TO CENTER RIGHT IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VERSION OF THIS COUNTRY TO REASSURE PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE NOT CRAZY LIBERAL AND THAT'S JUST THE BURDEN OF RUNNING AND WINNING A NATIONAL ELECTION AS A DEMOCRAT.

IS WHY THE LAST TWO WERE AFFECTED.

IT WAS CONSTANTLY ON THEIR MINDS.

HOW DO I REASSURE THE CENTER THAT I'M NOT EXTREME.

>> CAN YOU DO THAT BY -- LIZ CHENEY AND OTHERS?

>> SHE TRIED TO DO THAT AROUND THE EDGES BUT HERE'S MY CONCERN ABOUT THE LIZ CHENEY STUFF.

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WITH HER, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT JANUARY 6, DEMOCRACY AND THE GUARDRAILS OF OUR CONSTITUTION, THAT'S NOT STUFF THAT'S GOING TO WIN YOU NEW VOTERS ARE VOTING ON JANUARY 6 IN OUR CONSTITUTION ARE ALREADY IN YOUR COLUMN BY NOW.

THEY ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT TRUMP.

THEY ARE ALREADY FOR YOU.

YOU'VE GOT TO GIVE THE VOTERS WHO ARE NOT QUITE YET FOR YOU SOMETHING AND WALTER, I WAS WITH HER IN LIZ CHENEY IN WISCONSIN.

PEOPLE STOOD UP FROM THE AUDIENCE AND SAID I'M A LIFETIME REPUBLICAN VOTER.

TELL ME HOW I CAN BE FOR YOU.

PLEASE REASSURE ME AND SHE COULDN'T DO IT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE BIG SHIFT BEING MEN AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE NOTICED WHEN I LISTEN TO TALK RADIO OR I'M ONLINE, THAT THERE IS A ROW CULTURE OUT THERE, ESPECIALLY A YOUNG YOUNG MEN.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR LIFETIME, REPUBLICAN WON HISPANIC MEN, BUT IT'S A TECH BROKE CULTURE AND A FINANCE BROKER CULTURE --BRO CULTURE.

THAT'S JUST, IT'S JUST FLOCKED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW.

>> IT HAS, AND I KIND OF WONDER IF WE WOULD EVEN CALL IT A BRO CULTURE IN THE 1980s OR 90s.

I DON'T THINK MEN WERE APPRECIABLY DIFFERENT THEN.

THEY WERE STILL MASCULINE AND SORT OF INTO SPORTS AND, YOU KNOW, AS OUR BUDDY SAYS, A HAMBURGER AND WATCH A FOOTBALL GAME.

I JUST THINK THIS SORT OF BROADER CULTURE HAS CHANGED SOMEWHAT AND WE ARE NOW DETERMINED TO PLACE FOLKS IN SORT OF IDENTITY BOXES IN WAYS THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST, IT WOULD'VE SORT OF, TO BORROW A PHRASE, BOYS BEING BOYS.

SO I'M NOT SURE HOW DIFFERENT IT IS BUT WHAT IS DIFFERENT, WHICH IS JUST EN MASSE BLOCKING TO SUPPORT REPUBLICANS.

>> THERE'S SOMETHING THAT WIRED MAGAZINE, I LOVE THE PHRASE THEY BEEN USING, CALLS THE MANNO SPHERE -- PODCAST, SOME OF OUR VIEWERS MAY NOT OF HEARD OF, BUT THE TOP ONES LIKE AIDEN ROSS AND THEN YOU HAVE JOE ROGAN AND TUCKER CARLSON AND LEX FREDMAN BUT HE WENT ON ALL OF THOSE.

ONLINE AND IN THE PODCAST WORLD.

>> WALTER, YOU ARE SO DEAD ON.

IT'S THE NEW CELEBRITY CULTURE.

IS TAKING PLACE OFF TV MOVIES.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

THE SATURDAY BEFORE THE ELECTION, I WAS AT PENN STATE, THE OHIO STATE PENN STATE GAME AT A TAILGATE WITH ONE OF THE GOP CANDIDATES IN PENNSYLVANIA AND THERE WAS A PODCASTER THERE AND SOMEBODY WHO IS A POPULAR PODCAST THAT WAS KIND OF PART SPORTS, PART POLITICS.

WALTER, HE WAS FLOCKED WITH PEOPLE ASKING HIM FOR SELFIES.

PEOPLE CALLING UP LEFT AND RIGHT.

MUCH MORE SO THAN THE ACTUAL POLITICIANS IN PENNSYLVANIA WHO WERE THERE AT THE TAILGATE.

THE SELFIES WERE FOR HIM, NOT FOR THE CAMERAS.

WOULD IT HAVE MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE IF BIDEN HAD NOT SOUGHT RE-ELECTION TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO?

>> I DO THINK SO.

I THINK THE ORIGINAL SIN HERE, YOU COULD SAY POLITICALLY IS TWO THINGS.

A, IT'S BIDEN PUTTING HARRIS ON 2020.

BASICALLY, ENSURING THAT SHE MADE A SUCCESSOR, AND SECONDLY, IT'S BIDEN'S INSISTENCE, I GUESS SURE THE CO-ORIGINAL SIN, IF YOU WILL.

BIDEN'S INSISTENCE, WALTER, ON RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION AS HE WAS GOING TO TURN 82 YEARS OLD.

REALLY, NOBODY IN HIS ORBIT OR EVEN IN THE PARTY IS INSISTING ON OTHERWISE.

THAT, FOR ME, WAS THE DEAFENING SILENCE.

NOBODY IN HIS FAMILY, STAFF, OR THE SENIOR LEADERS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAID A WORD ABOUT THE WISDOM OF RUNNING AN 82-YEAR-OLD FOR RE-ELECTION.

BY THE WAY, LOOKED EVERY BIT OF A TWO.

>> THE LARGER QUESTION IS OF GUARDRAILS, WHETHER IT'S GUARDRAILS, MAYBE FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EDITORIAL BOARD ABOUT TOO HIGH OF TURFS, -- TARIFFS, OR TALKING ABOUT GUARDRAILS THAT KEEP THEM WITHIN CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS, DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE PEOPLE AND WHO WILL THEY BE WHO WILL TRY TO PUT GUARDRAILS AROUND TRUMP THIS TIME THE WAY THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE DID EARLY ON IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THAT ADMINISTRATION.

TRUMP CAME IN, SURROUNDED BY STAFF AND THE CABINET THAT WAS MOSTLY PEOPLE THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, IN THAT OLD CONSENSUS, WALTER, THAT YOU MENTIONED, NEOLIBERAL, NEOCONSERVATIVE, AND CERTAINLY ON CAPITOL HILL, BUT THE LEADERS WERE PAUL RYAN, MITCH McCONNELL.

NOW THEY ARE LIKELY GOING TO BE LIKE JOHNSON IN THE HOUSE AND I THINK LIKE --PEOPLE WHO BOTH COME FROM KIND OF PRE-TRUMP TRADITION, MORE CONSERVATIVE THROUGH A BUSH CONSERVATIVE.

BUT STILL, THEY ARE GOING TO BE MUCH MORE VOLATILE TO ACCOMMODATE TRUMP.

ESPECIALLY AFTER THE SELECTION BECAUSE THEY SEEK THE SUPPORT HE HAS ACROSS THE BOARD AND I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO BE EVEN MORE RELUCTANT TO CONFRONT HIM.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME MOST ABOUT THE SELECTION IN THE PAST FEW YEARS IS THE DEEP POLARIZATION.

PEOPLE JUST CAN'T TALK TO PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO IN AN ERA WHEN IT WAS OBAMA RUNNING AGAIN AGAINST JOHN McCAIN, MITT ROMNEY.

HOW DEEP IS THIS POLARIZATION, AND HOW IS THAT GOING TO SHAPE AMERICAN POLITICS THE NEXT 10 YEAR?

>> WELL, IT'S THE BIG STORY OF OUR TIME.

POLITICS HAS BECOME LESS ABOUT YOUR PREFERENCE AND MORE ABOUT THE STATION OF YOUR IDENTITY.

IT'S NOT PISTACHIO OR STRAWBERRY WHERE DESSERT IS GOOD OR EVIL.

IT'S WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON AND THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT FROM WHAT POLITICS WAS 20 YEARS AGO AND I THINK THAT HAS CREATED A LOT OF THE CONTENTIOUSNESS IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK HE'S MORE OF A SYMPTOM OR AN ACCELERANT THAT HE IS THE STORY BUT OBVIOUSLY, NOW THAT HE'S BACK IN POWER, THAT IS NOT GOING AWAY AND I THINK, IT'S GOING TO CAUSE HUGE RIFTS IN THIS COUNTRY BOTH CULTURALLY AND, FRANKLY, IN FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES, TOO.

AND IT'S A CHALLENGE AND I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST STORY LINES WE ARE GOING TO SEE IS WHAT DO DEMOCRATS DO?

DO THEY MERELY GO TO THE BARRICADES AND TRY TO RESIST TRUMP LIKE THEY DID IN 2016 AND 2017, OR ON THE RESULTS SO SHOCKING TO THEM THAT THEY TRY TO ACCOMMODATE SOME LEVEL OF TRUMPISM?

>> TO ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION.

>> OH, LOOK.

I THINK THE MAJORITY OF THEM WILL GO TO THE BARRICADES AND TRY TO RESIST.

I DO.

>> IS THIS A MAJOR POLITICAL REALIGNMENT OF TECTONIC SHIFT THAT WE HAVE SEEN TALKING ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM WORKING-CLASS TO GENDER ISSUES AND OTHER THINGS, OR IS THIS, WILL RESHAPE AMERICAN POLITICS JUST THE WAY THE NEW DEAL DID?

OR IS THIS SOMETHING TEMPORARY?

>> I THINK IT'S TEMPORARY.

LOOK, I THINK WE ARE IN A.

OF EXCEEDINGLY CLOSE ELECTIONS IN WHICH THE PARTIES TRADE THAT POWER IN A DIVIDED COUNTRY THAT'S CLEAVED THOSE LINES OF CLASS, GENDER, AND REGION.

THAT MUCH.

I SPOKE TO A STORY AND LAST WEEK AT THE MISSONI IN ABOUT THIS.

THIS DOES REFLECT THE KIND OF POST-CIVIL WAR PERIOD THAT I THINK TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE, HIGH IMMIGRATION, AND I REALLY DIVIDED COUNTRY IN WHICH POLITICS WAS NOW A PART OF IDENTITY IN WHO YOU WERE MORE THAN IT WAS A PREFERENCE AND BECAUSE THE COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED, I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE CLOSELY FOUGHT ELECTIONS AND, FRANKLY, BACK AND FORTH, WALTER, BECAUSE WHEN ONE PARTY OVERREACHES OR MISSTEPS, THE OTHER PARTY WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT AND WILL GO ON AND ON AND ON.

I THINK IN THAT SAME WAY, FOR SOME TIME TO COME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, JONATHAN MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> FINALLY.

>>> THE BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT HAS JOINED -- JUST DAYS BEFORE -- ON THE G20 SUMMIT.

I SPOKE TO PRESIDENT LULA FOR A SNIPPET.

YOU KNOW WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID IN HIS FIRST TERM.

HE PULLED THE UNITED STATES OUT OF THE LANDMARK CLIMATE ACCORD.

DO YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO DO THE SAME THING AGAIN?

>> WELL -- >> Translator: HE HAS TO THINK AS AN INHABITANT OF THE PLANET EARTH, AND IF HE THINKS AS THE RULER OF THE MOST IMPORTANT, RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, MORE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS BETTER PREPARED FROM THE -- HE HAS TO HAVE THE NOTION THAT THE U.S. IS IN THE SAME PLANET THAT I AM AND THAT THE ALIGNMENT OF 300,000 INHABITANTS AND SO ALL OF US WILL HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE MAINTENANCE OF THIS PLANET.

WE NEED TO GUARANTEE THAT THE PLANET SHOULD NOT BE SUFFERING -- 1.6.

THAT THE RIVERS SHOULD CONTINUE HEALTHY WITH CLEAN WATERS.

SO WE NEED TO GUARANTEE THAT THE BIOMES OF THE COUNTRIES SHOULD BE PRESERVED AND SO THIS IS A COMMITMENT THAT I HAVE, NOT ONLY IS THE PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL, AS A HUMAN BEING THAT LIVES IN THE PLANET CALLED EARTH, THERE'S NO OTHER PLACE TO LIVE.

ONLY EARTH.

>> YOU CAN CATCH THE FULL CONVERSATION ON OUR SHOW TOMORROW.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG.

THANKS FOR JOINING US, AND WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW.