Art, Science and the Human Experience: Ken Burns on Leonardo da Vinci

>>> UP NEXT, A DEEP DIVE INTO THE LIFE WORK OF PROMINENT RENAISSANCE GENIUS LEONARDO DA VINCI.

HE WAS AN INFLUENTIAL PHILOSOPHER AND INVENTOR OF HIS TIME.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY DIRECTED BY FATHER/DAUGHTER DUO, KEN AND SARAH BURNS.

>> THE MOST CURIOUS MAN IN HISTORY, HE WAS ALWAYS CURIOUS, NEVER TOOK NO FOR AN ANSWER.

>> THERE ARE CERTAIN SUPREME FIGURES IN THE LIFE OF OUR SITUATION, SEEM TO BELONG TO TWO WORLDS AT ONCE.

>> IMPRESSIVE ACHIEVEMENT, VOLUMES OF PERSONAL NOTE BOOKS AND A SERIOUS OF INTERVIEWS.

THEY SAT DOWN TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> KEN, OVER THE YEARS, YOU'VE MADE ALMOST 40 FILMS ALL SET IN AMERICA.

NOW YOU'RE DOING DA VINCI, WHY?

>> IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, WALTER, WORKING ON A FILM ABOUT BENJAMIN FRANKLIN TOGETHER, YOU HAD GIVEN US A GOOD INTERVIEW, AND WE WERE HAVING DINNER IN WASHINGTON, D.C., AND ALL EVENING LONG YOU WERE PUSHING ME TO CONSIDER LEONARDO DA VINCI.

IN AMERICA, THE GREATEST SCIENTIST WAS BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, IF NOT THE WORLD, AND THE COMPROMISES THAT CREATED THE UNITED STATES ARE HIS.

BUT I KEPT SAYING I DON'T DO NON-AMERICAN PROJECTS.

BUT TALKING TO MY DAUGHTER AND -- HAD CONTRIBUTED ON SEVERAL THINGS AND THEY LOVED THE IDEA OF LEONARDO.

SARAH AND DAVE PICKED UP MY GRANDCHILDREN, MOVED TO ITALY FOR A YEAR, DID THE RESEARCH, WROTE THE SCRIPT, DID MOST OF THE INTERVIEWS AND BROUGHT BACK ALL THE RAW MATERIAL WHICH WE HAD THE LUXURY AT PBS TO PORE OVER AND CREATE THIS PORTRAIT.

MANY OF THE THEMES WE GO FOR ARE UNIVERSAL IN THE AMERICAN STORY.

HERE IS A GUY SPEAKING TO THE UNIVERSEALITY OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

>> THE PEOPLE CONNECT THE ARTS TO THE SCIENCES, PEOPLE WHO CONNECT ENGINEERING TO THE HUMANITIES.

TALK ABOUT THAT THEME.

>> IT'S SPECIAL TO WHO LEONARDO WAS, HE HAD INTERESTS ACROSS A WIDE SPECTRUM AND DIDN'T SEE IT AS SEPARATE.

ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE RELATED AND PART OF HIS LARGER EFFORT TO UNDERSTAND THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING HE COULD ABOUT THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE, THE HUMAN BODY, HOW ALL THE THINGS ARE CONNECTED.

WE WERE INSPIRED BY LEONARDO'S INTEREST TO FIND WAYS TO TELL THE STORY IN WAYS THAT SHOWED THE INTERCONNECTEDNESS BETWEEN NATURE, ART, SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING, ALL THE THINGS THAT FASCINATED LEONARDO, HOW COULD WE SHOW THEM ALL AS RELATED AND CONNECTED.

>> THE ANCIENTS DESCRIBED MAN AS THE WORLD IN MINIATURE.

AS MUCH AS MAN IS COMPOSED OF EARTH, WATER, AIR AND FIRE, HIS BODY RESEMBLES THAT OF THE PLANET.

AS MAN HAS IN HIM BONES, THE SUPPORTS AND FRAMEWORK OF HIS FLESH, THE WORLD HAS ITS ROCKS, THE SUPPORTS OF THE EARTH.

AS MAN HAS IN HIM A POOL OF BLOOD, IN WHICH THE LUNGS RISE AND FALL IN BREATHING, SO THE BODY OF THE EARTH AS ITS OCEAN TIDE WHICH LIKEWISE RISES AND FALLS EVERY SIX HOURS AS IF THE WORLD BREATHES.

>> ANOTHER THING THAT CONNECTS DA VINCI TO FRANKLIN, THEY'RE TWO OF THE PEOPLE IN HISTORY WHO MOST TRIED TO LEARN EVERYTHING YOU COULD KNOW ABOUT EVERY SUBJECT KNOWABLE.

HOW DOES THAT HELP THEM FIGURE OUT THE PATTERNS OF NATURE?

>> THIS IS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE THING.

WHAT'S SO INTERESTING WITH REGARD TO LEONARDO, HE'S BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK, HE'S NOT ABLE TO TAKE A TRADITIONAL TRAJECTORY THAT HIS FATHER, A WELL-KNOWN NOTARY IN FLORENCE, WOULD HAVE PERMITTED HIM TO DO, GO TO UNIVERSITY.

HE ENDS UP KNOWING MORE THAN ANY SCHOLAR IN ANY PARTICULAR DISCIPLINE, AND HE DOESN'T SEE THE BORDERS BETWEEN THE DISCIPLINES.

HIS FIRST TEACHER IS NATURE, AND AS GUILLERMO DEL TORO SAID AT THE OPENING, HIS RESPONSIBILITY WAS INTEGRATE THE UNIVERSE, ASK IT EVERY QUESTION ABOUT ITS NATURE.

HE'S STUDYING WATER DYNAMICS, BOTANY, ATMOSPHERE, ROCKS AND GEOLOGY AND FOSSIL DISTRIBUTION.

HE'S INVENTING, LOOKING AT FLIGHT AND GRAVITY BEFORE GALILEO, AND DOESN'T HAVE A TELESCOPE OR MICROSCOPE, BUT UNDERSTANDS A FUNDAMENTAL THING THAT THE SOLAR SYSTEM AND ATOM SHARE A SIMILAR AND ONE COULD SAY PROFOUND ARCHITECTURE.

THERE'S SOMETHING INCREDIBLY COMPELLING, HE'S ABLE TO ESCAPE THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY, NO PUN INTENDED, OF HIS UPBRINGING TO BECOME A PERSON WHO KNOWS ALMOST EVERYTHING.

THE MONA LISA IS A GREAT WORK OF SCIENCE AND HIS ANATOMIES ARE GREAT WORKS OF ART, AND I CAN HEAR HIM IN MY HEAD SAYING DON'T MAKE THE DISTINCTION.

I HAVE TO MAKE THE MONA LISA BY UNDERSTANDING THE BONE STRUCTURE, HOW HAIR AND THINGS DRAPE, THE ATMOSPHERES IN THE BACKGROUND.

I HAVE TO KNOW THE CIRCULATORY SYSTEM AND HOW THE HEART WORKS.

ALL OF THAT IS SO AMAZING, ABSOLUTELY WHY THIS IS THE MOST FAMOUS PAINTING ON EARTH.

WE MAY HAVE ENCRUSTED IT WITH POP SYMBOLISM, BUT THAT SMILE IS -- IN HER SMILE IS THE WHOLE HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

AND HE'S ABLE TO TAKE AND NOT ONLY MAKE A THREE DIMENSIONAL PORTRAIT BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE HAD DONE, BUT THE INTENTIONS OF THEIR MIND, WHAT THEY'RE THINKING, FEELING, SUFFERING AND JOY.

AND HIS LIFE IS THIS JOYOUS, INQUISITIVE INTEGRATION OF EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW.

FRANKLIN IS IN THAT REALM BUT TRAILING WAY BEHIND THE GUY I THINK IS THE MAN OF THE LAST MILLENNIUM.

>> SARAH, YOUR FATHER IS TALKING ABOUT THE INTERCONNECTION FOR LEONARDO OF ART AND SCIENCE AND DIDN'T MAKE THE DISTINCTION.

I REMEMBER THE DELUGE DRAWINGS HE MADE AT THE END OF HIS LIFE AT WINDSOR CASTLE.

I ASKED THE CURATOR IF HE MADE THE SPIRALS AS WORKS OF ART OR SCIENCE, AND THE CURATOR LOOKED AT ME WITH A HAUGHTY AIR AND SAID I DON'T THINK LEONARDO WOULD HAVE MADE THAT DISTINCTION.

HOW DID YOU SEE THE WAY HIS EXPERIMENTALISM, HIS LOVE OF SCIENCE AFFECTS HIS ART AND VICE-VERSA.

>> I THINK THAT CURATOR IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THESE THINGS ARE NOT DIFFERENT FOR LEONARDO, IT'S ALL PART OF THE SAME PROCESS OF EXPERIMENTATION, EXPLORATION AND PROCESS.

HE'S INTERESTED IN UNDERSTANDING ALL THESE THINGS AND HOW DO WE GET THERE.

HOW DO YOU STUDY THEM, HOW DO YOU EXPERIMENT WITH THEM, WHERE DO WE GO?

ALL OF THAT, HE'S MAKING THESE CONNECTIONS AND SEEING PATTERNS, HE'S LOOKING FOR PATTERNS ACROSS NATURE AND TYING ALL OF THESE THINGS TOGETHER.

FOR HIM, AS MY DAD WAS SAYING, THIS IS PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER.

PAINTINGS ARE A REFLECTION OF ALL HE'S LEARNED IN STUDYING ATMOSPHERE, THE CIRCULATORY SYSTEM, EVERY ASPECT OF THE HUMAN BODY, AND HE WANTS TO COMBINE IT ALL INTO THESE PIECES OF KNOWLEDGE.

ALL OF HIS WRITING REFLECTS THAT.

THERE ARE MORE THAN 4,000 PAGES LEFT BEHIND BY HIM.

FEW PAINTINGS, MANY UNFINISHED.

BUT THE NOTEBOOKS ARE AN INCREDIBLE WINDOW INTO A VERY UNIQUE MIND, FOR THAT CURIOSITY AND ABILITY TO SEE THE INTERCONNECTEDNESS OF ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.

>> KEN, YOU USUALLY USE STILL PHOTOGRAPHS AND CALL IT THE KEN BURNS EFFECT, CIVIL WAR AND JAZZ.

HOW DO YOU DO IT IN A PERIOD WHERE THERE'S NO STILL PHOTOGRAPHS AND VIDEO?

>> WHAT WAS GREAT ABOUT WHAT SARAH AND DAVE WERE ABLE TO SUGGEST, BECAUSE OF LEONARDO'S LATERAL THINKING, IT SUGGESTED WE COULD SPLIT THE SCREEN, WHICH IS RISKY FOR US.

MY PROJECT IS TO SAY A PAINTING IS ALIVE, THREE DIMENSIONAL, YOU CAN GO INTO IT AND DO A CLOSE-UP AND LANDSCAPES ARE THE PAINTING.

WE REVERSED IT.

TO DO A SPLIT SCREEN, NOT JUST TWO FRAMES, MAYBE FOUR, SIX, NINE, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

INCLUDE MODERN FOOTAGE AND PHOTOGRAPHS ALL ACROSS THE 20th CENTURY WAS TO ENCOMPASS THE CAPACIOUSNESS OF HIS MIND AND HIS CURIOSITY.

WE RISKED RETURNING THOSE IMAGES TO THEIR PLASTICITY, THEIR TWO DIMENSIONALITY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME HONORING THE RANGE OF HIS WORK.

>> THE IDEA OF SPLIT SCREENS USED TO CONNECT THE PAST TO THE PRESENT SOMETIMES.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

>> IT'S LEONARDO'S LATERAL THINKING, WE WANT TO BE IN HIS BRAIN, THINK ABOUT WHAT HE'S SEEING AND THINKING AND PROCESSING THE INFORMATION.

ALSO THINKING ABOUT HIS IMAGINATION.

HE'S AN INCREDIBLE SCIENTIST AND THINKER, ALSO HAS EXTRAORDINARY IMAGINATION AND CREATIVITY.

THERE ARE ALL THESE THINGS, INVENTIONS, THINGS HE DRAWS, IDEAS HE HAS, THAT ARE AS YOU SAID INCREDIBLY MODERN.

IN MANY WAYS ARE THROWING US INTO THE FUTURE, INTO THE PRESENT.

HE DOESN'T INVENT THE HELICOPTER, BUT HE IMAGINES THAT SOMEDAY WE COULD CREATE MACHINES TO ALLOW US TO FLY.

ALL OF THAT GIVES US PERMISSION AND OPPORTUNITY TO USE MATERIAL FROM ACROSS THE CENTURIES TO REFLECT THAT MODERNITY AND REFLECT HIS IMAGINATION.

THESE THINGS THAT WE WILL EVENTUALLY ACHIEVE THAT HE PROFESSIZED.

WE CAN SEE HELICOPTERS AND CARS AND WHETHER HE'S PLANTING A SEED OR JUST IMAGINING THE POSSIBILITY OF THEM, IT GIVES US LICENSE TO EXPAND WHAT WE CAN THINK ABOUT AND SHOW.

FOR US, THAT WAS REALLY EXCITING.

IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT.

AND IT CREATED THIS CREATIVE OPPORTUNITY FOR US AND FOR OUR EDITORS TO PULL IN ALL KINDS OF MATERIALS WE WOULD NORMALLY NEVER CONSIDER.

EXPERIMENTAL FILMS, ALL KINDS OF STUFF.

>> YOU HAVE HIM AS THE INVENTOR OF MODERNITY.

>> EXACTLY RIGHT.

>> YEAH.

HE DIDN'T HAVE TO INVENT THE HELICOPTER EXACTLY TO BE THE INVENTOR OF MODERNITY.

>> INVENTING AN ATTITUDE AND RELATIONSHIP TO LIFE, CREATION, ALL OF HISTORY, TO POSSIBILITY.

IN SO DOING, IT KEEPS HIS MOMENT AND VIEWPOINT UTTERLY ALIVE FOR US.

WITHIN HIS PURVIEW ALL OF THIS HAS TAKEN PLACE.

IT'S WONDERFUL.

IT'S NOT SAYING THERE'S A DIRECT LINE BETWEEN LEONARDO AND SIKORSKY, WHOEVER INVENTED THE HELICOPTER, BUT THERE IS IN THE SPIRIT OF TIME THE OPENING UP OF SPACES.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS, NOT HAVING THE CLASSICAL EDUCATION, FORMAL UNIVERSITY EDUCATION IS GREAT, BEING LIBERATED FROM THAT.

BUT ALSO HE DOESN'T LEAVE AS MUCH PERSONAL TABLOID INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HE'S FEELING.

WE DON'T HAVE DIARIES.

4,000-PLUS PAGES THAT SARAH SAID ARE HIS PHILOSOPHY.

WE GET INSIDE HIS HEAD AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT HIS RELATIONSHIP.

FINALLY IMPORTED BY THE KING OF FRANCE TO BE HIS ARISTOTLE, YOU GO TO THE PRESUMPTION THAT IT'S ALEXANDER.

ARISTOTLE IS A GREAT PHILOSOPHER AND THINKER AND WRITER, BUT SO IS LEONARDO.

HE'S JUST NOT PUBLISHED IN HIS DAY.

IT ACCRETES OUT.

ALSO A BOTANIST, ANATOMIST, ARTIST AND CREATOR OF THE TWO MOST FAMOUS PAINTINGS IN THE WORLD.

>> MONA LISA AND THE LAST SUPPER.

>> WE HAD A LAST SUPPER IN OUR HOUSE.

THE MONA LISA IN IN EVERYONE'S IMAGINATION.

TO BE ABLE RESET THEM, TAKE OFF THE LAYERS OF POPULAR CONSIDERATION AND REBUILD A MONA LISA, VIRGIN IN THE ROCKS, LADY WITH THE ERMINE OR THE LAST SUPPER AND DO IT IN A WAY THAT ADDS VALUE THAT I THINK HE WOULD APPRECIATE.

WE MAKE JOKES ABOUT HER SMILE, WE COULD GO BACK TO A TIME WHEN THERE WAS A STUNNING REVELATION IN ALL OF HUMANITY IN THE 24-YEAR-OLD WIFE OF A WELL-TO-DO SILK MERCHANT.

>> HE PAINTS 14 OR 15 TOTALLY FINISHED PAINTINGS, HE LEAVES MOST OF HIS ART UNFINISHED.

LIKEWISE, DESIGNS HELICOPTERS THAT DON'T FLY AND WEAPONS OF WAR THAT ARE NEVER BUILT.

AS YOU LOOK AT HIS UNFINISHED WORK, WHAT DO YOU LEARN?

I KNOW YOU PROBABLY STOOD IN FRONT OF THE ADORATION OF THE MAGI, MY FAVORITE UNFINISHED PAINTING OF ALL TIME.

>> ALL TIME.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE THAT AS A FAILURE, AND I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY AT ALL.

I THINK HE WAS INTERESTED IN PROCESS AND SAW THOSE WORKS AS EXPERIMENTS, SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS EVEN IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT THAT WAY.

FOR HIM IT WAS ABOUT WHAT HE COULD LEARN FROM THAT PROCESS AND HOW ALL OF WHAT HE'S LEARNED COULD BE DEPICTED IN THIS WAY.

I THINK WE'RE VERY LUCKY AS WITH THE ADORATION THAT HE DIDN'T FINISH IT.

IT'S SPECTACULARLY BEAUTIFUL EVEN IN THE PARTIALLY UNFINISHED STATE, AND IT GIVES US A SENSE OF WHAT HIS PROCESS WAS, HOW HE LAYERED THESE WORKS AND UNDERDRAWINGS AND UNDERPAINTINGS AND HOW HE SAW THE WORK, THE PAINTING ITSELF, AS AN EXPERIMENT.

AND THAT HE WAS MAKING CHANGES ON THE PANEL AS HE WENT, REARRANGING WHERE THIS THING WAS, MOVING SOMETHING AROUND, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY THE WAY HE WANTED TO TELL THIS STORY.

BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THE PAINTINGS IN THAT ONE IN PARTICULAR ARE TELLING A STORY, AND REFLECTING ALL THESE DIFFERENT EXPRESSIONS AND IDEAS, THINKING ABOUT HOW ALL THESE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE REACTED IN THAT SCENE.

INCREDIBLY AMBITIOUS, MAY TOO AMBITIOUS TO FINISH.

>> IT'S A NARRATIVE, JUST LIKE THE LAST SUPPER, EMOTIONAL MOVEMENT.

>> EXTRAORDINARY, IT UNFOLDS OVER TIME.

THE FACT IT'S UNFINISHED IS THIS WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY TO SEE EVERYTHING HE PUT INTO A PAINTING AND THAT'S SORT OF UNIQUE.

>> YOU CALL HIM THE INVENTOR OF MODERNITY, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE IF HE CAME BACK TODAY?

>> SARAH, DAVE AND I TALK ABOUT THIS A LOT.

I THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE OVER THE LAST 50 OR SO YEARS I'VE TOUCHED, TRIED TO WAKE UP, HE WOULD BE THE PERSON LEAST, SORT OF, URBED BY ARRIVING IN THE PRESENT MOMENT.

I THINK HE WOULD GO YOU DID THIS, YOU GOT THAT DONE.

YOU GOT TO THE MOON?

HOW DID YOU HANDLE THE GRAVITY THING.

HE WOULD BE THERE AND WOULD BE A FILM FILMMAKER AND PUT US ALL OUT OF BUSINESS, DOING IT BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE.

HE COULD DO IT.

HE'S ROOTED CLEARLY IN THIS TIME, LOOKING BACK TO THE ANCIENTS AND PROFESSIZING WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BECOME.

THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC MODERNITY AND MEANINGFULNESS HE WILL ALWAYS HAVE.

>> SARAH BURNS, KEN BURNS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US, WALTER.

>> THANK YOU.