“How Ivy League Admissions Broke America:” David Brooks Explains

>> TO THE U.S., , THE ELECTION HAS HIGHLIGHTED A DISTRUST IN AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

MANY WORKING- CLASS WORKERS VOTED REPUBLICAN DUE TO THE REPUTATION OF THE DEMOCRATS AS THE EDUCATED ELATE.

ELITE.

DAVID BROOKS ARGUES THAT A DYSFUNCTIONAL SYSTEM OF MERITOCRACY IS LARGELY RESPONSIBLE AND NEEDS TO BE REDEFINED.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOUR RECENT COVER STORY IN THE "ATLANTIC" DIVES INTO HOW WE HAVE CREATED A SYSTEM OF MERITOCRACY THAT'S NOT WORKING, CREATED A DIPLOMA DIVIDE IN AMERICA.

YOU WRITE THE MERITOCRACY HAS PROVOKED A POPULIST BACKLASH TEARING SOCIETY APART.

THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DIVIDE IS ALONG EDUCATIONAL LINES.

LESS EDUCATED VOTE REPUBLICAN, MORE EDUCATED VOTE DEMOCRAT.

>> IT GROWS OUT OF A CULTURAL DIVIDE.

PEOPLE WITH HIGH SCHOOL DEGREES AND COLLEGE DEGREES ARE LIVING IN DIFFERENT WORLDS.

PEOPLE WITH HIGH SCHOOL DEGREES MORE LIKELY TO BE OBESE, DIE EARLIER, MARRY, HAVE KIDS OUT OF WEDLOCK.

THEY HAVE FEWER FRIENDS.

WE'VE CREATED TWO DIFFERENT AMERICAS.

WE CREATED THAT UNINTENTIONALLY BUT ON PURPOSE.

WE CREATED A WORLD IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO DO WELL IN SCHOOL GET TO GO TO FANCY COLLEGES, MARRY EACH OTHER, INVEST HEAVILY IN THEIR KIDS THAT GO TO FANCILY COLLEGES.

MOVE TO THE SAME 10 OR 12 CITIES, AUSTIN, SAN FRANCISCO, WASHINGTON, AND INHERITED A CASTE STRUCTURE.

AND 50% OF AMERICA LOOKS AT THIS, YOU HAVE TOO MUCH POWER AND YOU'RE NOT THAT COMPETENT.

AND WE'RE GOING TO REVOLT.

THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT.

YOU GO BACK TO THE HARVARD PRESIDENT 100 YEARS AGO.

HOW DOES THAT TRANSLATE INTO THE SITUATION?

>> JAMES CONANCE INHERITED A SITUATION, GETTING INTO HARVARD WAS SUPER EASY IF YOUR DAD WENT TO HARVARD.

PRINCETON, YALE, SCHOOLS LIKE THAT FOR THE PROTESTANT ESTABLISHMENT.

THE IDEAL IN THOSE DAYS WAS TO BE A WELL- BRED MAN.

AND YOU DIDN'T WANT TO STUDY HARD, ECONOMICS WERE NOT IMPORTANT, BUT YOU HAD TO BE SOCIALLY POLISHED.

HE DECIDED IT WAS RIDICULOUS, WE CAN'T ENTER THE 21st CENTURY LED BY THESE PEOPLE AND WE NEED A NEW ELITE.

HE BELIEVED IN S. A. T. TESTS AND GOOD GRADES.

SAID WE'LL PLUCK ALL THE SMART KIDS AND PUT THEM IN HARVARD, YALE, PRINCETON, TO RUN THE SOCIETY WELL.

CREATING A NEW ELITE.

THE PROBLEM IS RICH FAMILIES LEARNED TO GAME THE SYSTEM, AND THE SECOND PROBLEM, HE DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT DEFINITION OF HUMAN ABILITY.

IT WAS ALL IQ.

IF YOU WANT TO BE ASTRO-PHYSICIST, HAVE A HIGH IQ.

BUT THOSE OF US WHO LIVE LIFE KNOW OTHER THINGS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

BEING CURIOUS, HAVING A PASSIONATE DRIVE, BEING A GOOD TEAMMATES, GRATEFUL TO OTHER PEOPLE, DECISIVE TOWARDS YOURSELF.

ALL THE TRAITS HARD TO MEASURE GOT LOPPED OFF.

WE CREATED THIS INHERITED CASTE SYSTEM THAT'S NOT COMPETENT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SELECT ON THE BASIS OF THE REAL SKILLS IN SOCIETY.

>> IS IT OKAY TO ASCRIBE THIS CURRENT SITUATION TO THE MERITOCRACY IN THE AMOUNT THAT YOU DO?

MEANING, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU, DAVID BROOKS, GIVING ENOUGH CREDIT TO THE SOCIAL POLICIES THAT MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE COME UP WITH THAT MIGHT HAVE EXACERBATED THE VERY DICHOTOMY IN AMERICA WE'RE DESCRIBING?

IS IT ALL THE MERITOCRACY, AREN'T OTHER THINGS RESPONSIBLE AS WELL?

>> I'M MONOMANIACAL ABOUT THIS, MAYBE I OVERSTATE IT.

BUT A LOT OF THE SOCIAL POLICIES GROW OUT OF THE ASSUMPTIONS OF THE EDUCATED CLASS.

I'M A MEMBER.

I TEACH AT ELITE SCHOOL, DEEP IN THE SYSTEM.

BUT WE DECIDED MOVING TO POST INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY, WE NEEDED AMERICANS TO LOOK LIKE US.

THE EDUCATION POLICIES WERE TO FUNNEL ALL KIDS INTO COLLEGES BECAUSE YOU NEED THE COLLEGE TO GET THE QUOTE JOBS OF THE FUTURE.

IMMIGRATION POLICY, RELATIVELY OPEN BORDER FOR CHEAP FOR US, BUT MORE COMPETITION FOR THE WORKING-CLASS.

AND A LOT OF JOBS WERE SHIPPED OVERSEAS.

NOT JOURNALIST, BUT LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE.

>> WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, SHOP CLASS WAS AN OPTION, AND YOUNGER PEOPLE ARE FLUMMOXED BY THE IDEA OF TEACHING CARPENTRY AT HIGH SCHOOL.

WE AS A CULTURE DECIDED NOT TO INVEST IN THOSE TRACKS FOR SECONDARY AND PRIMARY EDUCATION.

>> USED TO TRAIN SHOP CLASS, MORE ARTS EDUCATION.

USED TO BE THE COURTESY CLUB, PEOPLE TAUGHT SOCIAL SKILLS.

WE DO A LITTLE IN SOCIAL AND EMOTIONAL LEARNING, NOT AS MUCH AS WE SHOULD.

WE TOOK ONE FORM OF INTELLIGENCE, THE ABILITY TO DO WELL IN SCHOOL, SAID THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.

YOU GET STRAIGHT As, THAT'S THE PERSON WE WANT TO PROMOTE.

AND BY 9 OR 10 YEARS OLD, THE KIDS KNOW THE SCHOOL THINKS I'M SMART AND PUT INTO THE PRESSURE COOKER, OR I'M DUMB AND I'M PROBABLY MENTALLY CHECKING OUT.

IT'S WRONG TO SORT KIDS AT THAT EARLY AGE, ESPECIALLY BY A NARROW AND BOGUS CRITERIA.

THE MERITOCRACY IS BASED ON THE NON SEQUITUR THAT DOING WELL AT SCHOOL IS THE SAME AS DOING WELL AT LIFE.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE GRADES AND LIFE OUTCOMES IS ESSENTIALLY TRIVIAL.

THERE WAS A STUDY, SOMEBODY LOOKED AT THOUSANDS OF CASES OF PEOPLE FIRED FROM THEIR JOB, AND WHY.

11% OF THE CASES BECAUSE THEY LACKED INTELLIGENCE OR TECHNICAL SKILLS.

89% OF CASES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE BAD TEAMMATES, HARD TO COACH, DIDN'T TRY HARD, WEREN'T CALM UNDER PRESSURE.

THESE ARE NONCOGNITIVE SKILLS.

THEY'RE HARD TO COUNT.

TO ME THEY'RE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE AND OUR SCHOOLS HAVE SHUNTED THEM OFF TO THE SIDE.

>> WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS SOMEWHAT SIMPLE IDEA, THAT'S STAYED AROUND BECAUSE IT'S A SIMPLE IDEA, THAT NUMBER ONE PEOPLE GO TO NUMBER ONE SCHOOLS?

THAT THERE IS A PURPOSE IN HAVING BASELINE STANDARDIZED MEASUREMENTS TO SORT.

>> WELL, IT JUST DOESN'T -- NUMBER ONE PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY GO TO NUMBER ONE SCHOOLS.

HIGH IQ, GOOD.

1600 S. A. T. s WILL HELP YOU IN LIFE, PROBABLY LEAD TO HIGHER JOBS AND INCOMES.

BUT A STUDY THAT LOOKED AT SUPER SMART PEOPLE OVER THEIR LIFETIMES, AND THEY DID FINE, DOCTORS AND LAWYERS, TOP 1%.

NONE WERE GENIUSES, NONE WERE CREATIVE.

IT'S NOT THE SAME AS CREATIVITY AND GOOD JUDGMENT.

THEY'RE REALLY GOOD CONFIRMING TO THEMSELF THAT THEIR FALSE IDEAS ARE TRUE.

THERE'S A LOT ASIDE FROM THAT.

A STUDY SOMEBODY DID OF STUDENTS, GAVE THEM CONSULTING PROBLEMS AS IF IN A CONSULTING FIRM.

IVY LEAGUE KIDS DID ONLY A TINY AMOUNT BETTER THAN THE OTHER KIDS.

ADAM GRANT TOOK THE RESULTS AND CALCULATED THAT A YALE GRAD IN CONSULTING PROBLEMS DID 1.

9% THAN A GRAD FROM CLEVELAND STATE.

THAT'S NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE.

PARENTS OF HIGH SCHOOL JUNIORS THINK THERE'S AN AWESOME DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRINCETON AND PENN OR BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, PENN STATE AND PENN, OR WILLIAMS COLLEGE AND SOME OTHER COLLEGE.

BUT THESE --THIS IS A STATUS SYSTEM THAT REALLY HAS NO CORRELATION IN REALITY.

>> I HAVEN'T MET ANY COLLEGE ADMINISTRATORS IN MY TIME REPORTING ON HIGHER EDUCATION WHO ARE HAPPY WITH THE RANKINGS AND HOW DISPROPORTIONATE THAT NUMBER FACTORS INTO HOW PROSPECTIVE PARENTS THINK.

BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY AN IDEA THAT'S CREPT IN, BEEN ESTABLISHED IN THE MINDS OF THOSE PARENTS, LOOK THIS IS THE SYSTEM THAT HAS CREATED THIS AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR GOOD AS WELL AS THE THINGS YOU DESCRIBE.

RIGHT?

>> AS I SAY, I WENT TO THESE SCHOOLS AND NOW TEACH AT ONE.

TAUGHT FOR 20 YEARS AT DIFFERENT ELITE COLLEGES AND THEY'RE AWESOME PLACES FILLED WITH AWESOME PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE CURRENTLY IN THEM ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

THE PROBLEM IS THEY'RE PART OF A SYSTEM ESTABLISHED 70 OR 80 YEARS AGO AND WE'RE ALL STUCK IN THE SYSTEM.

MOST OF US ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE SYSTEM, SO PARENTS, A LOT OF PARENTS THINK THERE'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE PUT ON THEIR KIDS IN JUNIOR AND SENIOR YEAR IN HIGH SCHOOL BUT THEY CAN'T UNILATERALLY DISARM BECAUSE THE NEIGHBOR DOWN THE STREET MIGHT BE A TIGER MOM MAKING HER KIDS COMPETE.

YOU CAN'T WITHDRAWAL.

THE ADMISSIONS OFFICERS DON'T LIKE THE SYSTEM, BUT THEY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE EXCLUSIVELY, REJECTING CERTAIN PEOPLE, THE MEDIAN S. A. T. SCORE.

THEY'RE TRAPPED IN THE SYSTEM.

TEACHERS DON'T LIKE TEACHING TO THE TEST, BUT STANDARDIZED TESTS HAVE BECOME A MAIN FORCE OF THIS SYSTEM, THAT THEY HAVE TO TEACH TO THE TEST.

TO ME, THE ONLY WAY TO FIX THE MERITOCRACY IS CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF MERIT.

>> TAKE DAVID BROOKS' IDEA, RUN ITS COURSE, NEXT YEAR THE ADMISSIONS COUNSELLORS SAY HOW DO I IMPLEMENT THIS.

IF I WANT TO DEEMPHASIZE IQ OR TEST SCORE AND START MEASURING FOR THINGS THAT BROOKS IS OUTLINING, COURAGE AND GRIT AND SENSE OF PURPOSE AND HOW GOOD OF A TEAMMATE YOU ARE, HOW DO WE START TO THINK ABOUT RESTRUCTURING THE SYSTEM AND MEASURING APPROPRIATELY?

>> FIRST NEED TO MAKE SCHOOLS NOT THE SORTING SYSTEM OF SOCIETY.

YOU CAN'T TELL A PERSON'S POTENTIAL AT AGE 18, YOU JUST CAN'T.

YOU'RE CREATING A BOGUS SYSTEM.

SECOND THING, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS OUR HIGH SCHOOLS AND ELEMENTARY AND MIDDLE SCHOOLS ORIENTED THEMSELVES TO FEED INTO THIS SYSTEM, GRADES, AP TESTS AND S. A. T. s ARE WHAT MATTER PRIMARILY.

SOME SCHOOLS HAVE WAYS OF DOING EDUCATION THAT'S DIFFERENT.

ONE OF THE MODELS I DESCRIBE, ALL ARE OUT THERE AND MOST TEACHERS LOVE THEM, WOULD LOVE TO TRANSFER.

ONE MODEL IS PROJECT-BASED EDUCATION.

THERE ARE NO GRADES, NO CLASS PERIODS, YOU'RE PART OF A TEAM, YOU'RE GIVEN A BIG PROJECT TO WORK ON.

THERE'S A SCHOOL I SAW A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT RECENTLY, SOME OF THE STUDENTS WERE IN A TEAM AND HAD TO ANALYZE WHY DO CIVILIZATIONS DECLINE, AND NOT ONLY ANALYZE IT, BUT BUILD A WOODEN GIZMO WITH CHARTS WITH ALL THE FACTORS.

THINKING ABOUT A PROBLEM TOGETHER, WORKING WITH THEIR HANDS AND THINKING TOGETHER.

THAT'S MORE LIKE IT.

YOU HAVE GRADES AND SCORES BUT ALSO A PORTFOLIO OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

SOME SCHOOLS HAVE THE PORTFOLIO DEFENSE, GET THE STUDENTS IN FRONT OF A TEAM OF TEACHERS AND ASK THEM WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS OR THAT DECISION.

THAT'S MORE HOW THE WORKPLACE WORKS.

WHEN YOU GET THAT KIND OF SCHOOL, YOU'RE NURTURING INITIATIVE, WORKING ON TEAMS, HAVING DESIRE, BEING CURIOUS, BEING ABLE TO WORK HARD THROUGH A DIFFICULT PROBLEM, CULTIVATING THAT.

AND YOU CAN'T QUANTIFY IT.

BUT YOU CAN CREATE A BIOGRAPHY OF THE PERSON AND THEN THAT CAN BE SENT TO SCHOOLS AND THEY CAN FIND THE RIGHT PERSON.

WE'D HAVE GREATER DIVERSITY OF EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS CATERING TO A GREATER DIVERSITY OF HUMAN ABILITIES.

>> WE HAD MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS ON THE PROGRAM, WHAT'S INTRIGUING WHEN WE LISTEN TO THE STATISTICS OF HOW LIKELY YOU ARE TO GET INTO COLLEGE IF YOUR PARENTS WENT TO AN ELITE COLLEGE, MAKES YOU LOOK AT THIS AND SAY IS IT MERITOCRATIC SYSTEM IF IT'S TILTED TO LEGACIES?

>> IT'S INHERITED MERITOCRACY.

ALL THE CONTRIBUTIONS THAT THE EDUCATED PARENTS MAKE TO THEIR KIDS, EDUCATION, OBOE PRACTICE, TRAVEL, TEAMS.

THEY INVEST INTO THOSE KIDS AND IF YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T COMPETE.

BY EIGHTH GRADE THE CHILDREN OF THE AFFLUENT ARE FOUR GRADES AHEAD.

BY HIGH SCHOOL THEY HAVE WAY HIGHER S. A. T. SCHOOLS.

IT'S A SYSTEM YOU CAN GAME.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS --THE REASON HIS WORK IS VALUABLE, REMINDING US OF THE IMPORTANCE --WE'RE SCHOOL OBSESSED AND SHOULD BE COMMUNITY OBSESSED.

HE TALKS ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES CREATE RADICALLY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF SOCIAL MOBILITY, AND IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME.

AMERICAN CHILD SPENDS 13% OF TIME IN SCHOOL, 87% IS SPENT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

THE NEIGHBORHOOD MATTERS.

AND HIS RESEARCH SHOWS ALL SORTS OF UNEXPECTED THINGS.

CROSS-CLASS FRIENDSHIPS.

IF YOU HAVE A FRIEND FROM A DIFFERENT SOCIAL CLASS, THAT SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES YOUR SOCIAL MOBILITY.

BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND MAY SHOW YOU DIFFERENT FORMS OF LIFE YOU DON'T SEE IN YOUR IMMEDIATE EXPERIENCE, MAY HAVE IDEAS FOR YOU TO GET INTO A SCHOOL, PURSUE A CAREER.

THAT SUPER MATTERS.

ARE THERE FATHERS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD?

DOESN'T HAVE TO BE YOUR OWN.

A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH FATHERS AROUND, THE GUYS HAVE A ROLE MODEL TO FOLLOW IN LIFE.

NEIGHBORHOOD EFFECTS ARE SUPER IMPORTANT AND NOT THINK ABOUT --AS WE THINK WHO BENEFITS FROM SOCIETY, IT'S NOT JUST THE SCHOOL, IT'S THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND FAMILY, THE SOFT SKILLS, NONCOGNITIVE, BUT IMPORTANT SKILLS.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER THROUGHLINE IN YOUR ESSAY, YOU SEEM TO BE ADVOCATING FROM A SHIFT FROM THE ME MODEL TO US MODEL.

YOU WRITE QUOTE WE WANT A SOCIETY RUN BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SMART, YES, BUT ALSO WISE, PERCEPTIVE, CARING, RESILIENT AND LOOKING FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

IN AMERICA OF 2024, IS THAT SOMETHING TO TILT TOWARD?

CULTURAL FORCES ALL SEEM ALIGNED TOWARDS AN IDEA OF EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES.

IT DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

>> THAT'S THE CULTURE OF INDIVIDUALISM WE'VE HAD AT THE SAME TIME.

I WOULD SAY BACK TO POST WORLD WAR II PERIOD.

I THINK WE'VE HAD 60 YEARS OF HYPER INDIVIDUALISM, RIGHT WING WHICH IS ECONOMIC, OR PROGRESSIVE INDIVIDUALISM, WHICH IS ABOUT LIFESTYLE.

WE'VE HAD A LOT OF INDIVIDUALISM AND CREATED MORE FREEDOM FOR OURSELVES, WHICH IS GREAT, BUT ALSO WEAKENED THE TIES BETWEEN EACH OTHER.

MY VIEW RIGHT NOW, OUR POLITICAL MOMENT, RIGHT AND LEFT, WE DECIDED WE NEED MORE COMMUNITY, BUT WE'RE HAVING A BIG FIGHT OVER WHAT COMMUNITY WE PREFER.

MAGA PREFERS HIGHLY NATIONALIZED, MAYBE PATRIARCHAL COMMUNITY.

PROGRESSIVES WANT A COMMUNITY BASED ON ETHIC IDENTITY.

THE LAST TUMULTUOUS YEARS HAVE BEEN CULTURAL.

CHOPPING AT THE SYSTEM OF NARCISSISM AND TRYING TO MOVE TOWARD A DIFFERENT COMMUNAL CULTURE AND SEARCHING FOR A COMMUNITY TO BUILD THAT WILL BE HEALTHY.

>> DAVID BROOKS, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

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