Reagan Insider Peggy Noonan on Trump, COVID-19 and Masculinity

>> DONALD TRUMP'S RETURN TO THE WHITE HOUSE COMES AT A DIVISIVE TIME IN AMERICAN SOCIETY AND POLITICS.

BACK IN THE '80s, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING COLUMNIST AND AUTHOR PEGGY WAS PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN'S SPEECHWRITER AND SHE REFLECTS ON HOW THE NATION HAS EVOLVED IN HER NEW BOOK, A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA.

SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, AND PEGGY, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER, IT IS WONDERFUL TO BE HERE.

>> THIS COLLECTION OF COLUMNS REMINDS ME OF HOW WHEN YOU ARE WRITING YOUR COLUMN, YOU'RE ALMOST THINKING OUT LOUD, TALKING TO YOURSELF, TALKING TO US, THEN PROCESSING INFORMATION.

YOU TAKE US STEP BY STEP THROUGH IT.

SO LET ME UNDERSTAND, HOW ARE YOU PROCESSING THE CURRENT MOMENT AND THE CURRENT ELECTION?

>> I AM PROCESSING THE CURRENT MOMENT AS IN MAR-A-LAGO, THE NEW INCOMING PRESIDENT IS SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID TO LEAVE HIS LINE OF SIGHT, AND SO, THEY ARE STAYING ALL AROUND HIM, AND GIVING SOME SORT OF PHYSICAL SENSE OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION , AND IT IS AN INTERESTING PICTURE.

IN A DIFFERENT WAY, I THINK IT IS VERY FUNNY, BUT SOMETIMES WHITE HOUSES OR INCOMING WHITE HOUSES ARE NOT QUITE CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT THEY CAN DO SOMETHING THAT IS DISTURBING TO PEOPLE, HERE IS WHAT IT IS.

IT IS LIKE THEY HAVE GOT A CHEF'S KITCHEN AND A CHEF'S STOVE, AND THEY HAVE GOT EIGHT BURNERS, AND THEY DECIDED TO PUT EIGHT POTS ON EACH BURNER, AND PUT THEM UP TO FULL BOIL, AND STEAM THE WINDOWS, AND GIVE A SENSE OF HOLY MACKEREL, WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING HERE ?

IF I WERE TO GIVE THEM ADVICE WHERE THEY ASKED FOR ADVICE, I WOULD SAY, GOSH, WITH THESE CABINET APPOINTMENTS , LOWER THE HEAT.

AMERICA HAS JUST BEEN THROUGH A DRAMATIC ELECTION .

WHAT IT WOULD LOVE TO DO, LOVE TO FEEL, WHAT WOULD BE VERY GOOD FOR MR. TRUMP IS TO MAKE THEM FEEL REASSURED THAT MATURE, NONDRAMATIC PEOPLE ARE IN CHARGE.

>> AND REASSURE THAT MATURE, NONDRAMATIC PEOPLE ARE IN CHARGE, I MEAN, TRUMP IS BASED ON DRAMA, THAT IS HIS ENTIRE PERSONA.

ARE YOU ASKING HIM TO BE SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, I AM ASKING THEM TO BE SHREWDLY SELF DISCIPLINED FOR ONCE.

AND THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU WERE WITH REAGAN, YOU DID ALL OF HIS GREAT SPEECHES.

COMPARE AND CONTRAST RONALD REAGAN AND HIS RHETORIC, WHICH A LOT OF WHICH YOU HELPED HIM WRITE, TO DONALD TRUMP'S RHETORIC.

>> WELL, RONALD REAGAN WAS A MAN WHO LOVED WORDS AND THEIR CONCRETE MEETING --MEANING AND THEIR ABILITY TO SUGGEST, SO BOTH SIDES OF WHAT A WORD IS, WHAT A SENTENCE IS.

HE HAD THEN SOMETHING THAT REAGAN HAD THAT TRUMP DOES NOT HAVE IS THAT REAGAN, SINCE THE 1960s, ACTUALLY MEANING 20 YEARS BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT, WAS SERIOUSLY EMERGING AS THE CONSERVATIVE VOICE OF THE BRAND- NEW CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IN AMERICA.

SO, HE KNEW HIS STUFF, HE KNEW WHAT HE WANTED TO SAY.

HE KNEW WHAT QUOTE FROM THE FOUNDERS HE WANTED TO USE.

YOU WELL KNOW, DONALD TRUMP OF COURSE HAS BEEN NONE OF THAT AND HAS DONE NONE OF THAT.

HE IS A MAN WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BACKGROUND, WHO NOW AND THEN SHOWED AN INTEREST IN POLITICS, AND NOW AND THEN WOULD GO MAKE A SPEECH, BUT HE WAS NOT THE VOICE OF A REAL PHILOSOPHICAL THING, AND MOSTLY, HIS SOUND --I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE, HIS SOUND IS UTTERLY GENUINE TO HIM.

HE DOESN'T TRY TO HIDE MUCH, IN A WAY, YOU KNOW?

HE TELLS YOU THIS IS WHAT I AM GOING TO DO, THIS IS WHY, WE WILL FIGURE OUT THE DETAILS LATER, BUT THIS IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.

HE HAS MORE THE BLUNT AND PERHAPS NO CONTEXT SOUND OF MODERN AMERICA.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED , "A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA," A GREAT TITLE .

EXPLAIN WHY.

>> DECADES AGO, I READ CHARLES DE GAULLE'S WAR MEMOIRS AND I FOUND IT A LITTLE MASTERPIECE ACTUALLY.

NOT QUITE IN THE LEAGUE OF U. S. GRANTS WAR MEMOIRS, BUT AN IMPRESSIVE BOOK FROM A DEEPLY IMPRESSIVE MAN, WHO HAD AN ALMOST MYSTICAL --I THINK A MYSTICAL ATTACHMENT WITH HIS NATION.

WITH HIS COUNTRY, AND ITS MEANING AND HISTORY.

AND WHAT STRUCK ME WHEN I READ, THE FAMOUS FIRST SENTENCE OF HIS MEMOIR IS, "ALL MY LIFE, I HAD A CERTAIN IDEA OF FRANCE. "

IT WAS SO SIMPLE AND HE EXPLAINED THAT IT WAS IN ONE PART EMOTIONAL AND IN ONE PART BASED ON RATIONAL THOUGHT, AND I WILL NEVER FORGET SEEING THAT SENTENCE AND THINKING, DO YOU KNOW, NOT TO COMPARE MYSELF TO CHARLES DE GAULLE, BUT THAT WAS TRUE OF ME ALSO.

ALL OF MY LIFE, I HAVE HAD A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA.

FOR ALL ITS PROBLEMS, ALL ITS FLAWS, ALL ITS FAILURES, IT WAS A GOOD NATION , A UNIQUE FORCE IN THE WORLD, A NEW THING IN THE HISTORY OF MAN, BASED ON A NEW THOUGHT, ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL HERE UNDER THE LAW, AND WHEREVER YOU START DOES NOT DICTATE WHERE YOU WILL WIND UP, AND TO ME, THIS IS NOT A GAUZY FEELING ABOUT AMERICA, THIS IS A TRUTHFUL , FACTUAL FEELING ABOUT AMERICA, AND I DO THINK --NOT TO GO TOO LONG HERE, I THINK THE BALANCE OF OUR NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT OUR COUNTRY HAS IN THE PAST 10 YEARS SKEWED MORE TOWARDS THE PAINFULLY SHAMED --AND I JUST THINK, WELL, GUYS, WE HAVE GOT TO REORDER THIS A LITTLE BIT, WE HAVE GOT TO REBALANCE HERE.

I FEEL VERY PROTECTIVE ABOUT AMERICA.

>> AND THE AMERICA THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, THE AMERICA THAT RONALD REAGAN SPOKE ABOUT WAS FUNDAMENTALLY OPTIMISTIC.

THE MORNING IN AMERICA FEEL.

AND YOU JUST SAID THAT AMERICA IS NOW KIND OF FEELS SHAMED, IT IS ALMOST A DYSTOPIAN VISION THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING WRONG.

EXPLAIN, UNPACK THAT.

>> WELL, I WILL TELL YOU WHAT ONE OF MY GREAT WORRIES IS POINT .

THERE ARE A LOT OF FAMILIES IN AMERICA THAT DON'T WORK AND ARE NOT SO SUCCESSFULLY BRINGING UP KIDS WITH ORDER AND LOVE.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE IN AMERICA.

WE ARE IN AN AMERICA OF DISPLACED PEOPLE, ALWAYS PUSHING OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND WE HAVE HAD INTERESTING PARENTING STYLES, BUT WHEN I WAS A KID IN AMERICA IN THE 50s AND 60s, COMING FROM A SOMEWHAT TURBULENT FAMILY, I ALWAYS WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE THE FEELING, WALTER, THAT WHAT IS IN THE FAMILY IS THIS , BUT WHEN I OPEN THE FRONT DOOR, I GO INTO AMERICA AND IT IS A GOOD PLACE, AND IT WON'T BE UNKIND TO YOU BASED ON YOUR SEX OR YOUR RACE, IT WILL BE ACCEPTING OF YOU AND GOOD TO YOU.

WHAT I FEAR IS THAT IN THE PAST, I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG, 10 OR 20 YEARS, WE HAVE LEFT KIDS FROM TURBULENT HOMES THINKING I'M NOT SAFE HERE, AND GUESS WHAT, I JUST OPENED THE FRONT DOOR TO GO OUT AND I AM NOT SAFE THERE EITHER.

IT IS A RATHER WICKED PLACE.

THIS IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN ON MY MIND AS A WORKING WRITER FOR DECADES.

AND I FEEL WE ARE SELLING THOSE POOR KIDS SHORT.

AND WE HAVE GOT TO GIVE THEM A DIFFERENT VISION , SO THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THEY CAN HAVE A CHANCE HERE AND THEY CAN RISE HERE, AND THEY CAN BE ACCEPTED HERE, AND THEY CAN BE PART OF THIS BIG PROJECT THAT WE HAVE.

SO, THAT HAS BEEN VERY MUCH ON MY MIND.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN OFTEN ABOUT THE NEED SPECIFICALLY TO TEACH , AS A CULTURE, WE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO TEACH AGAIN HOW YOUNG BOYS SHOULD FIT IN AND YOUNG BOYS SHOULD LIVE.

WHY ARE YOU PARTICULARLY WORRIED ABOUT YOUNG BOYS, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A SON AND NOW A NEW GRANDSON?

>> BECAUSE BOYS NEED MASCULINE MODELS .

IN SOME SPECIAL WAY, BOYS NEED TO BE TAUGHT THROUGH THE MODELING OF OTHERS HOW TO BE A BOY AND HOW TO BE A MAN AND WHAT THE MASCULINE VIRTUES ARE, AND HOW TO BE A GENTLEMAN, AND HOW TO BE KINDLY AND STRONG AT THE SAME TIME.

THIS, TOO, HAS BEEN A MATTER OF REAL CONCERN TO ME, AND I FEEL LIKE --LIKE WE ARE GETTING IT WRONG A BIT, AND I DON'T LIKE IT THAT WE MAKE SOMETIMES THESE DAYS BOYS FEEL LIKE THEY ARE NOTHING, THEY HAVE NO SPECIAL PLACE, THEY HAVE LOST THEIR PLACE.

AND IT DISTURBS ME.

>> WE DID THAT TO WOMEN FOR CENTURIES, ISN'T THIS JUST ABOUT A REBALANCING?

>> YES.

IT IS ABOUT A SENSITIVITY.

CAN YOU HELP EVERYBODY AT THE SAME TIME?

DO YOU HAVE TO REALLY HELP THE GIRLS AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BOYS OR THE WOMEN AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MEN?

WE CAN DO IT ALL.

WE SHOULDN'T EVER BE CATEGORIZING AND DEFINING AND LIMITING PEOPLE BY WHAT THEY WERE BORN AS.

IT IS NOT GOOD.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU SEE IN THE BOOK IS YOU TALKED TO SOME TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS, EVEN DURING THE TUMULTUOUS FIRST TERM OF DONALD TRUMP, AND THEY WERE LOOKING TO SORT OF THE POST-TRUMP ERA, BACK TO REAL CONSERVATIVE.

I THINK YOU SAID THAT REAGAN'S OLD CONSERVATIVISM WAS PHILOSOPHICALLY RIGHT, BUT IT IS NOT FULLY ONLINE WITH THE CRISES OF OUR TIMES.

WHY IS THAT?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I'M A LITTLE IMPATIENT WITH THE WHAT WOULD REAGAN DO, WHAT WOULD REAGAN SAY?

THESE POLICIES ARE NOT REAGANESQUE.

LOOK, IF IT IS 1962 AND JOHN F. KENNEDY IS PRESIDENT, PEOPLE AROUND HIM SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING AROUND AND SAYING HE IS DOING THINGS DIFFERENT FROM FDR.

FDR'S AGE AND THE IMMEDIATE POLITICAL DEMANDS OF HIS AGE WERE DIFFERENT FROM JOHN F. KENNEDY'S.

DONALD TRUMP'S AGE AND ISSUES ARE DIFFERENT FROM RONALD REAGAN'S.

I'M NOT REALLY --I'M NOT A FAN OF -- OKAY, PHILOSOPHICALLY, WE HAVE WORKED OUT WHERE WE STAND ON THIS ISSUE AND WE WILL STAND THERE UNVARYING WEIGHT FOREVER, NO MATTER WHAT THE REALITY OUTSIDE.

RONALD REAGAN , TO GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE OF A DIFFERENCE, IS THAT RONALD REAGAN IN 1980 WAS DEALING WITH AN ESSENTIALLY -- AND ADDRESSING AN ESSENTIALLY HEALTHY COUNTRY.

HEALTHY IN ITS WAYS AND WAYS OF LIVING, I GUESS.

DONALD TRUMP'S AMERICA IS A VERY DIFFERENT AMERICA, IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE VERY DISTURBED AND TORMENTED BY A LACK OF PARTICULAR KINDS OF JOBS , BY DRUGS, BY FAMILIES THAT SEEM TO COHERE LESS.

SO, YOU KNOW, AS WHAT DID LINCOLN SAY, AS OUR TIMES ARE NEW, WE MUST THINK ANEW.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THINKING ANEW.

BUT CERTAINLY, KEEP YOUR KIND OF --WHATEVER KIND OF CONSERVATIVE YOU ARE, WHATEVER, KEEP THAT PRESENT AND APPLICABLE.

BECAUSE PHILOSOPHY IS MATTER.

THEY ARE THE GROUNDING FOR EVERYTHING.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ECHOES THROUGH YOUR BOOK IS COVID, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, EARLY ON IN COVID, YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT IT.

I HAVE A THEORY ABOUT COVID, WHICH IS THAT IT TURNED INTO A CLASS DIVIDE, AND THERE WERE A CERTAIN CLASS OF PEOPLE, USUALLY THE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, WHO HAD TO GO TO WORK, AND WERE APPALLED BY ALL THE LOCKDOWNS AND RESTRICTIONS, AND THEN THERE WAS SORT OF AN OVER CLASS WHO SAID FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.

AND THAT DIVIDE BECAME A POLITICAL DIVIDE AS WELL THAT WAS REFLECTED IN THIS ELECTION.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT BECAME A POLITICAL DIVIDE, BUT ALSO REFLECTED AND UNDERLINED A POLITICAL DIVIDE THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING.

I WROTE ABOUT THIS SOMEWHAT IN SOME VERY CONTROVERSIAL COLUMNS.

YOU KNOW, IN ONE, I SAID --AND I ACTUALLY JUST THINK THIS, WORKING-CLASS FOLK WILL HAVE TOUGH LIVES AND HAVE TO STOP AT THE SHOP RIGHT AND DRIVE THE TRUCK.

THEY CAN BE PRETTY TOUGH ABOUT LIFE, YOU KNOW?

IN PART BECAUSE THEY PROBABLY CAME FROM A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TOUGHNESS, SO THEY SEE THIS TERRIBLE GERM COMING AND THEY KNOW IT IS TROUBLE AND THEY ARE WEARING THE MASK, BUT THEY ARE ALSO SEEING THE LAPTOP CLASS, THAT IS ME AND YOU, STAYING HOME AND WHAT?

BEING DETACHED FROM THEIR REAL LIVES , AND DETACHED FROM THEIR NEED TO SIMPLY LIVE THEIR LIVES, AND I THINK MAYBE DETACHED FROM A CERTAIN COMMON SENSE AND ATTACHED TOO MUCH TO THE SORT OF WE KNOW THE SCIENCE, WE ARE THE SUPERIOR FOLK STUFF, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS PAINFUL, AND I DIDN'T LIKE IT, AND YES, WE ARE STILL WORKING IT OUT.

I THINK PART OF THE STORY OF THE 2024 ELECTION --I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT REFLECTED IN A BOWL, IT IS ONLY MY HUNCH, THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, A LOT OF THEM WANTED TO SAY TO LOOK AT THE YEARS 2020, 2024, AND SAY GOODBYE TO ALL THAT.

GOODBYE.

WE ARE GOING TO REORDER THINGS.

>> ONE OF THE TOUGHEST COLUMNS IN YOUR BOOK IS RIGHT AFTER THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON CAPITOL HILL, AND YOU CALLED IT A SIN AGAINST HISTORY, AND YOU SAID THAT TRUMP WAS THE CHIEF INSTIGATOR OF IT, AND YOU SAID YOU SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE.

>> WHATEVER COMES FIRST.

>> AFTER ALL THIS, HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO NOW MAKE OF JANUARY 6th AND THE FACT THAT IT REBOUNDED?

LOOK, I KNOW WHAT I THINK OF JANUARY 6th.

IT WAS A TERRIBLE SIN AGAINST HISTORY AND AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT GOT THESE ANGRY, YOUNG GUYS AND SAID TO THEM, I WILL MEET YOU AT THE CAPITOL, WE WILL CATCH UP WITH THE BAD GUYS THERE.

IT WAS DELIBERATE AND MISCHIEVOUS TO THE POINT OF MALICE, AND THEN AS THE STORY PLAYED OUT ON OUR AIRWAVES ON THE INTERNET AND ON CABLE TV LIVE, HE SAT AND WATCHED IT.

IT WAS GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE, JUST GROSSLY SO.

NOW, IF I WERE A TRUMP SUPPORTER, I WOULD SAY CAN YOU GUYS RELAX ABOUT THIS?

IT WAS 1000 GUYS IN A NATION OF 335 MILLION.

THEY WEREN'T ALL ARMED WITH GUNS AND LOOKING TO SHOOT SOMEBODY, THEY WERE ACTING OUT AND ACTING UP, AND THE LAW CAME DOWN ON THEM.

MAN, THE BOOK WAS THROWN AT THEM, THEY ALL WENT TO JAIL.

RELAX, THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS.

SO, THAT IS THE ANSWER I OFTEN GET.

>> AND WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE?

>> MINE.

[ LAUGHTER ] I'M SORRY, YOU CANNOT DO JANUARY 6th, YOU JUST CAN'T.

>> YOU ARE FUNDAMENTALLY OPTIMISTIC IN THIS BOOK , IN THE SPEECHES YOU WROTE, OTHER THINGS.

WHAT IS MAKING YOU, IF ANYTHING, OPTIMISTIC THESE DAYS?

>> OH, OPTIMISTIC -- I HAVE FAITH.

I THINK ALWAYS PREPARE FOR A BAD TIME, BUT LIVE THROUGH EACH DAY IN A HAPPY WAY.

YOU ARE LUCKY TO BE HERE, JUST LUCKY TO BE HERE, LUCKY TO BE ALIVE.

SO, ENJOY THIS THING THAT WE HAVE.

UM, HAVE FAITH IN OTHER PEOPLE.

I NEED AMERICANS THROUGHOUT AMERICA ON MY TRAVELS, THERE SUCH A GOOD PEOPLE.

SO, I WORRY ABOUT US A LOT.

BUT I LOVE US A LOT.

AND THERE YOU ARE.

>> PEGGY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER, VERY MUCH, IT WAS AN HONOR.