November 22, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

THIS IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

AS RUSSIA HITS UKRAINE WITH A MISSILE, WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT FROM KYIV OF THE WEAPONS TURNING UP IN THE KREMLIN WAR.

>>> AND THE CHARGES AGAINST BENJAMIN NETANYAHU OUTRAGEOUS, AND WITH HEAR FROM A WOMAN LIVING IN GAZA.

>>> AND NOW, AFTER A JOHN GALLAGHER JR. IS JOINING US ON THEIR HIT MUSICAL.

>> AND RALPH KATZ LAYS OUT FOREIGN POLICY WITH RALPH ISSACSON.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSS I BY JIM ATWOOD AND THE SYLVIAA AND SIMON BPOYTA FOUNDATION AND MARK J. BLESHNER, AND THE FILOMEN FOUNDATION, AND THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ FUND, AND KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN DEDICATED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES, AND BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BARBARA ROGERS AND FROM CONTRIBUTIONS OF YOUR PBS STATION AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLDRIGA IN WASHINGTON.

AND THE PRESIDENT IS CALLING THIS A RECKLESS SITUATION OF WESTERN COUNTRIES SUPPLYING WEAPONS TO KYIV.

AND LAWMAKERS ARE FEARFUL OF MORE RUSSIAN STRIKES.

MEANWHILE THE TOP UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS ARE ADMITTING THAT THE SITUATION ON THE FRONT LINES IS DIFFICULT.

PUTIN'S ASSAULT ON UKRAINE APPEARS TO BE GETTING A BOOST FROM KIM JONG-UN.

THE NORTH KOREAN FIGHTERS ARE SHOWING UP ALONG THE RUSSIAN FORCES AND THEY ARE USING THE NORTH KOREAN-MADE MISSILES, BUT AS NICK PATON WALSH REPORTS, THEY ARE RELIANT ON NORTH AMERICAN MADE COMPONENTS.

>> Reporter: THE DEAD HORRIFICALLY COMMON IN KYIV, BUT THEY ARE TURNING UP SOMETHING MORE IN THE RUBBLE, NOT KOREAN, BUT RUSSIAN-MADE MISSILES MADE TO FLY HERE TO CAUSE THIS BARBERISM KILLING A MAN AND HIS SON MADE FROM CIRCUITRY OF THE UNITED STATES.

CNN IS TOLD THAT THE MISSILES WERE RISING WITH A TOLL OF OVER 500 OF THEM THIS YEAR, AND AT LEAST 60 OF THEM USING NORTH KOREAN KMTs, BUT THESE MISSILES ARE PART OF THE AID AS NORTH KOREAN TROOPS ARE COMING TO RUSSIA RELYING ON A SOPHISTICATION SMUGGLED INTO THE HERMIT KINGDOM, AND ONE ON DISPLAY AT THIS KYIV WAREHOUSE OF MISSILE FRAGMENTS AND IT IS A HOUSE OF HORRORS AND DRONES THAT HAUNT THE NIGHT SKIES, AND ROCKETS THAT TEAR DOWN LIVES.

THEY PICK THROUGH THE DUST TO LEARN HOW THE KILLING MACHINES WORK.

HERE, REBUILDING A IRANIAN DRONE AND THE CIRCUITS.

THESE ARE PARTS HERE OF A MISSILE, AND A DRONE AND THESE ARE ALL RECONNAISSANCE DRONES THAT HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO FOR MANY MONTHS, BUT THESE KM-23 MISSILES ARE RELIED ON BY THE COMPONENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES AND THE NETHERLANDS.

THIS BOX IS CONTAINING SMALL BITS OF CIRCUITRY OF HOUSEHOLD NAMES OF THE USA AND EUROPE AND SUBJECT THE SANCTIONS, BUT SMUGGLED FROM CHINA TO NORTH KOREA.

SO WHEN YOU OPEN THIS UP AND SEE THE AMERICAN COMPONENTS, HOW DID YOU FEEL?

THE JOURNEY THAT THE CIRCUITS HAVE MADE THROUGH CHINA AS THE MIDDLEMAN, BUT ULTIMATELY, THEY ARE U.S.-MADE AND DESIGNED.

THEY SAY THAT THE FIRMS NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FROM THE GROWING USE OF THE MISSILES AS THE GROWING REACH OF THIS WAR GROWS.

>> THANK YOU, NICK PATON WALL FRSH THAT REPORT FROM KYIV.

AND NOW, THE DECISION TO ISSUE ARREST WARRANTS FOR PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND HIS COUNTERPART GALAN IN GAZA GOES ON.

UNITED STATES PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WEIGHED IN SAYING IT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

BUT THE COURT SAID THAT THE COURT RESTORES HOPE AND INTERNATIONAL LAW AND INSTITUTIONS.

THE ACTION OF THE INTERNATIONAL COURT COMES FROM THE DEATH TOLL IN GAZA PASSES 44,000 PEOPLE ACCORDING TO HEALTH OFFICIALS.

AFTER THE NEWS BROKE, I SPOKE TO A FAMILY WHO BARELY SURVIVED THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK HAVING BEEN RESCUED FROM THE KIBBUTZ BY HIS FATHER.

SOME IN THE KIBBUTZ ARE STILL BEING HELD HOSTAGE.

THIS IS WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

>> THIS IS THE THING THAT EVEN IF YOU EXPECTED IT, IT IS A GUT PUNCH, AND EVERY ISRAELI GOING TO ASK, HOW CAN A YEAR AFTER OCTOBER 7, THE BIGGEST MASSACRE OF JEWS SINCE THE HOLOCAUST, AND AFTER THE FIRST FEW WEEKS WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD REALLY STOOD UP TO SUPPORT ISRAEL, AND WE HAD AN TRAIN OF WORLD LEADERS COMING HERE TO WHERE WE ARE ISOLATED.

>> AND NOW WE WANT TO HEAR FROM ANOTHER WRITER AMERICAN WRITER LAILA AL HA DAD DAD AND MANY OF FAMILY MEMBERS ARE STILL IN GAZA.

AND NOW, LAILA, BEFORE WE GET TO THE ORDERS ISSUED BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT, AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR FAMILY AND HOW THEY ARE DOING.

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE IN GAZA CITY HAVE BEEN THERE AND NO AID HAS ENTERED FOR ABOUT A MONTH.

MANY OF MY FAMILY AND COUSINS ARE STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE AND NO OTHER WAY TO PUT IT, AND I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN SURVIVING SOLELY ON WHATEVER CANNED FOODS THEY CAN GET THEIR HANDS ON AND THEY HAVE NOT TASTED ANY SORTS OF FRESH PRODUCE OR FRESH PROTEIN FOR MONTHS UPON MONTHS.

AND IT IS HEARTBREAKING, AND WE DO OUR BEST TO TRY TO AMPLIFY, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T COMPLAIN, BUT WE DO OUR BEST TO TRY TO AMPLIFY THE SITUATION AND THEIR VOICES AND TO ADVOCATE ON THEIR BEHALF WHEN THEY FEEL LIKE THE WORLD HAS ABANDONED THEM.

>> AND YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO US AND YOUR WORLD ABOUT YOUR FAMILY BASICALLY AS A MEDIUM, TO AMERICA, FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS HAD CONSTANT COMMUNICATIONS WITH YOUR FAMILY FOR OVER A YEAR NOW.

AND TELL US, BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT THEY ARE NOT COMPLAIN, BUT IT IS QUITE SHOCKING, ACTUALLY HOW PEOPLE CAN ACCLIMATE TO WAR IN SUCH DIRE CONDITIONS.

WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU OVER A YEAR INTO THIS WAR NOW?

>> WELL, THEY ARE TELLING ME FIRST AND FOREMOST THAT IT IS NOT A WAR.

IT IS A GENOCIDE, AND THIS IS BECOMING ABUNDANTLY CLEARSH AND THEY WISH THAT THE WORLD WOULD HAVE CAUGHT ON TO THIS MUCH SOONER, BECAUSE THEY CERTAINLY UNDERSTOOD IT THAT EARLY ON WHEN IT WAS CLEAR TO THEM THAT WHAT WAS BEING TARGETED HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY KIND OF SORT OF MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE BUT IT WAS CIVILIAN IN NATURE AND WHETHER IT WAS HOSPITALS OR THEIR SCHOOLS OR THEIR UNIVERSITIES.

YOU KNOW, BOTH OF MY UNCLE'S HOUSES WERE LEVELED AND DESTROYED TO THE GROUND FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, AND SO WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME IS THAT THEY WANT PEOPLE TO KEEP SPEAKING UP, WHETHER IT IS INDIVIDUALS OR COURTS, AND THEY WANT PEOPLE TO PURSUE EVERY AVENUE AT THEIR DISPOSAL TO PUT AN END, YOU KNOW, TODAY BEFORE TOMORROW TO THIS GENOCIDE SO THEY CAN BEGIN TO TRY TO REBUILD A RETURN TO SOME SEMBLANCE OF NORMALCY.

>> AND WE SHOULD NOTE THAT BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND NO COURT IN A CASE BEFORE THE ICJ IS THAT THIS IS NOT A GENOCIDE AND NOT WITHSTANDING THAT THE HUMAN TOLL AND SUFFERING THERE.

I DO WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION AND YOUR REACTION AND THEN YOUR FAMILY'S REACTION.

>> WELL, THERE IS PLAUSIBLE.

AND THEY HAVE FOUND THAT THERE IS PLAUSIBLE ACTS OF GENOCIDE, AND THAT IS SIGNIFICANT TO NOTE, AND IT IS NOT A WHOLESALE THING, AND NOT EITHER/OR, AND MANY ACTS OF GENOCIDE HAVE BEEN FOUND TO BE OCCURRING.

>> LET ME GET YOUR REACTION TO THE ICC NEWS YESTERDAY OF THE ARREST WARRANTS OF ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND THE DEFENSE MINISTER JOHAN GALLANT AND HOW THE FAMILY HAS REACTED TO THE NEWS THERE IN GAZA.

>> I THINK THAT IT WAS CERTAINLY A WELCOMED DECISION FOR THE PALESTINIANS, THE WORLDOVER INCLUDING FOR MY FAMILY MEMBERS IN GAZA FOR WHOM I HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO SPEAK WITH ABOUT THIS.

I THINK THAT NOT JUST BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, AND WHAT IS DONE TO US, BUT FOR PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE SUFFERED OBVIOUSLY DECADES, SYSTEMIC ISRAELI OPPRESSION, AND IT IS A RARE MOMENT OF VALIDATION FOR PALESTINIANS, AND YOU KNOW, A SENSE OR STEP TOWARDS ACCOUNTABILITY.

BECAUSE FOR SO LONG REALLY, THE REASON THAT THIS CONTINUES IS BECAUSE OF ISRAEL'S IMPUNITY, AND OF COURSE, UNFLAGGING AND UNWAVERING SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO, THEY ARE HOPEFUL, AND THEY SEE THIS AS SORT OF ONE BUILDING BLOCK, IF YOU WILL, ON TOP OF MANY OTHERS, AND AS WE KNOW, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON GENOCIDE, AS YOU KNOW, BUT THERE IS STILL AN URGENCY AND THE THOUGHT THAT SOMETHING MUST BE DONE TO STOP IT, AND THAT IS THE ONLY CONVERSATION THAT WE SHOULD BE HAVING RIGHT NOW, AND SO IN THAT SENSE, THIS WAS VERY WELCOMED, BUT OF COURSE, THEY ALSO WISH THEY COULD SEE TANGIBLE RESULTS, AND THAT THIS WOULD TRANSLATE ON THE GROUND IN TERMS OF IMMEDIATELY ENDING THE GENOCIDE, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY SEEING ARRESTS OF ISRAELI OFFICIALS, AND OF COURSE, IN THE LONG TERM AN END TO PALESTINIAN SUFFERING BY WAYS OF DISMANTLING THE OCCUPATION, AND ISRAELI APARTHEID AND SO ON.

>> THAT IS WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU AND FOLLOW UP ON, AND BECAUSE WE KNOW THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND HAMAS WELCOMED THE DECISION OF THE ICC AND THE PALESTINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UK SAID YESTERDAY OF THE ARREST OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND GALLANT IS NOT ONLY A STEP TOWARDS ACCOUNTABILITY, BUT IT IS A STEP FORWARD TO CREDIBILITY OF THE RULES BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER AND THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU OR JOHAN GALLANT BEHIND BARS ANY TIME SOON, BECAUSE THERE ARE EUROPEAN SIGNATORIES TO THE ICC AND SAID IF THEY TRAVEL TO THEIR COUNTRIES THEY WOULD BE FORCED TO OBLIGE, BUT OF COURSE, THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A SIGNATORY, AND SO WHAT IS THE IMPACT FOR YOUR FAMILY IN GAZA FOR THIS DECISION.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THEM TODAY, TOMORROW AND IN THE WEEKS TO COME?

>> I THINK FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT IS A VALIDATION OF WHAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED, OF THEIR SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY, AND IT GIVES THEM HOPE.

HOPE IS SO CRUCIAL AT A TIME WHEN WE ARE FACING THE FASTEST-PACED DELIBERATE DESTRUCTION OF A SOCIETY AND STARVATION OF A PEOPLE IN RECENT HISTORY, AND EVEN THOUGH THIS IS THE MOST WELL DOCUMENTED GENOCIDE, IT IS EQUALLY THE MOST DENIED.

AND SO TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE ICC COME OUT AND ISSUE THESE ARREST WARRANTS, AND TO BE ABLE TO GIVE THEM THIS GLIM OREF HOPE AND NOT JUST HOPE IN THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER WHICH OF COURSE GAZA HAS EXPOSED, SO WELL, THE HYPOCRISY AND DOUBLE STANDARDS, AND AGAIN, THE HOPE FOR PALESTINIANS AND MY FAMILY IN GAZA THAT THE WORLD HAS NOT FORGOTTEN ABOUT THEM, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WORKING TO ENSURE THAT THEIR SUFFERING COMES TO AN END IMMEDIATELY, AND THAT IS SO, SO IMPORTANT AS I SAID WHEN IT FEELS LIKE THE WORLD IS COLLUDING TO ENSURE THEIR DESTRUCTION AND ERASE UR.

>> AND THE ARREST WARRANTS WERE NOT LIMITED FOR NETANYAHU AND GALLANT, BUT ALSO FOR HAMAS LEADER DAY YEF WHO THEY SAID THEY KILLED THIS SUMMER, BUT FOR WHOM WE HAVE SEEN ARREST WARRANTS FOR SINWAR AND OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED AS WELL.

AND HOW ARE THE PALESTINIANS REACTING TO THOSE CHARGES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY TO THOSE?

WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE GA SANS THERE, AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR A ROLE FOR LEADERSHIP IN THE FUTURE?

>> WELL, THOSE ARE ALL GREAT QUESTIONS, AND BASED ON MY CONVERSATIONS WITH MY FAMILY MEMBERS AND THE ONLY THING THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS HOW TO SURVIVE THE NEXT DAY.

ONE CONVERSATION WAS VERY ILLUMINATING WHEN THEY SAID THAT WHEN THE BOMBS ARE FALLING, AND I SHOULD MENTION THAT U.S.-PROVIDED BOMBS, THEY SOMETIMES THINK ABOUT WH WHERE IT IS THAT THEY SHOULD SHELTER OR SLEEP, BECAUSE IT WILL IMPACT HOW THEY DIE, AND THEY WANT TO DIE IN THE LEAST PAINFUL WAY POSSIBLE, AND THESE ARE DECISIONS THEY ARE HAVING TO MAKE DAY IN, DAY OUT, WHAT TO FEED THEMSELVES, AND HOW TO SURVIVE FROM ONE DAY TO THE NEXT AND HOW TO GET CLEAN WATER, AND THOSE WITH CHILDREN LIKE MY COUSIN, HOW TO EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED SCHOOLS FOR MORE THAN A YEAR, AND THEY ARE HOPING TO S ACCOUNTABILITY NOT ONLY FOR ISRAEL, BUT THE UNITED STATES AS WELL, AND BLINKEN AND BIDEN AND THE REST OF THEM ARE BROUGHT TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR ROLE IN ALL OF THIS AND IN PROVIDING THE UNFLAGGING MILITARY SUPPORT WITHOUT NONE OF WHICH ALL OF THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE OF COURSE.

>> AS A JOURNALIST HERE IN AMERICA TO SEE WHAT HAS BEEN RARE THESE DAYS AND THIS IS THE BIPARTISAN CONDEMNATION OF THE REPUBLICAN, AND MOST OF THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS TO THIS ICC RULING OF SAYING THAT THERE IS NO LEGITIMACY HERE FOR THESE ARREST WARRANTS, AND THE INCOMING NSA DIRECTOR MIKE WALTZ SAID THAT THE ICC HAS NO CREDIBILITY, AND WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN IN THE STATEMENT, AND LET'S PLAY SOUND FROM THE SPOKESPERSON CAREEN JEAN-PIERRE.

>> WE REJECT THE ISSUE OF ARREST WARRANTS FOR THE PRIME MINISTER AND PROCESSER ERRORS THAT LED TO THIS DECISION.

THE ICC DOES NOT HAVE JURISDICTION OVER THIS MATTER, AND YOU HAVE HEARD US SAY THIS BEFORE.

>> AS AN AMERICAN WHO ALSO HAS SUCH A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS WAR AS WELL, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT IT IS VERY TELLING THAT THE UNITED STATES WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS, YOU KNOW, THE ICC'S ARREST WARRANTS CHARGES AGAINST PUTIN, RUSSIA, AND CALLED IN THAT, AND BIDEN CAME AROUND AND THEN WELCOMED AND CALLED THIS PARTICULAR SERIES OF EVENTS THAT ARREST WARRANTS AGAINST NETANYAHU AND GALLANT OUTRAGEOUS, AND I THINK THAT IF ANYTHING IS OUTRAGEOUS, IT IS THE GLARING DOUBLE STANDARDS THAT THIS HAS EXPOSED, RIGHT.

AND THE POST WORLD WAR II RULES-BASED ORDER AS YOU SAID, AND THERE IS SOMEHOW AN EXCUSE OR JUSTIFICATION FOR ISRAEL, AND THAT IS AGAIN AT THE HEART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND I THINK THAT INCREASINGLY, AND NOT JUST ISRAEL, BUT THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO FIND THEMSELVES ISOLATED AND PARIAHS WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DEFEND A PLAUSIBLE GENOCIDE, AND THE SLAUGHTER AND EXTERMINATION OF THE PEOPLE.

AT WHAT POINT WILL YOU FINALLY DRAW A RED LINE AND SAY THAT WE ARE GOING TO APPLY INTERNATIONAL LAW EQUALLY OR IS IT THAT THE PALESTINIANS ARE THE HUMANS OF WHICH THE LAWS OF WAR AND HUMANS DON'T APPLY.

>> AND LAILA, SORRY WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT IT STRUCK ME WHEN WE HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH YOU LAST YEAR THAT IT WAS A BINARY CHOICE OF YOU AND YOUR FAMILY TO BE TERRORISTS AND BE KILLED OR IF THEY DON'T ABIDE BY THE LEAFLETS THAT ARE DROPPED, THEY HAVE TO LEAVE.

IN YOUR VIEW, AND FROM WHAT YOU HEAR FROM THE FAMILY, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE ONE OR ANOTHER, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES.

>> YEAH, AND I MEAN, ANOTHER WAY TO PUT THIS IS OF COURSE WHAT HAS BEEN THE CALLED THE SMOELTRIDGE PLAN, AND YOU CAN BE VOLUNTARILY EXPELLED FROM THE NORTH AS MY COUSINS ARE, OR YOU STAY WHERE YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE KILLED.

SO IT IS NOT NECESSARILY A CHOICE THAT THEY HAVE, AS I SAID.

IT IS A FALSE CHOICE, BUT THEY CHOOSE TO REMAIN TO EXIST NONETHELESS, AND IN THAT EXISTENCE, AND IN THAT DEFIANCE THEY FEEL IT IS A SORT OF REJECTION OF WHAT HAS BEEN CALLED THE FINALITY OF GENOCIDE.

>> LAILA, HA WE WISH NOTHING BU THE BEST FOR YOUR FAMILY AND BEING THEIR VOICE, AND WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME FOR JOINING US.

>> IT IS MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND NEXT TO THE NOTORIOUS SHIP WRECK AND ONE OF AMERICA'S BEST LOVED FOLK ROCK BANDS AND MAYBE IT IS AN UNUSUAL COMBINATION, BUT LISTEN, BECAUSE IT IS THE E INSPIRATION BEHIND THE BRAND-NEW MUSICAL "SWEPT AWAY" OPENING ON BROADWAY.

IT IS THE DARK STORY OF SALVATION AND BROTHERHOOD AT SEA, AND FROM THE TOP CHARTING SIBLINGS THE AVID BROTHERS.

SCOTT AND SETH JOIN US TO TALK ABOUT THE MUSIC ON BROADWAY STAGE, AND THE ACTOR STAR OF THE SHOW TELLS US WHY THIS SHOW IS SO IMPORTANT TO HIM.

WELL, SCOTT, SETH AND JOHN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, AND CONGRATULATIONS.

"SWEPT AWAY" OPENING ON BROADWAY, AND WHAT AN ACCOMPLISHMENT, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR NOW A DECADE.

AND I READ THAT COLLECTIVELY AS A BAND, YOU DECIDED TO TAKE A STEP REMOVED AS THIS WAS UNFOLDING AND AS A PRODUCTION WAS COMING TOGETHER, AND TELL US ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, ABOUT REMOVING OURSELVES WHICH IS ONE OF OUR SUPERPOWERS AS A BAND.

WHEN IT BECAME SOMETHING THAT WE WERE ENGAGED IN, AND HOW WE WOULD ENGAGE IN IT WAS A MOMENT THAT WE WOULD USE TO EXERCISE THAT POWER WHICH IS THE NONPOWER TO STEP OUT AND SEE HOW IT WOULD LAND WITH THE WRITING AND THE DIRECTION AND THE ACTORS AS IT DID.

THEN, IF WE FELT IT NECESSARY FOR OUR LOVE AND CARE AND THE CRAFT TO INTERJECT, WE WOULD.

BUT, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT OFTEN WHEN YOU ARE WORKING WITH THIS MANY INCREDIBLE BRILLIANT MINDS.

>> YEAH, IT CAME TOGETHER RATHER WELL, YOU SAID.

>> YES, IT DID COME TOGETHER RATHER WELL, AND WE HAD PERSONAL THINGS THAT WE WOULD SAY VERY LITTLE.

>> SETH, THIS WAS ALL BASED ON MINIONETTE, WHICH IS BASED ON A SHIP THAT CAPSIZE AND THE SURVIVING MEMBERS RESORTED TO CANNIBALISM, AND THE SURVIVOR IN THE BOOK WAS YOUR FATHER, AND SO TALK ABOUT GETTING THIS BOOK FROM YOUR FATHER ON THE ROAD PERFORMING AND THEN SOMEHOW GETTING THE IDEA TO TURN THIS INTO AN ALBUM.

>> YES, WELL OUR DAD IS BIG ON STORIES OF HEROISM, STORIES OF GRIT, SURVIVAL AND SO, HE HAS ALWAYS PASSED THEM ALONG TO US.

HE PASSED "CUSTOM OF THE SEA" TO SCOTT.

IN THAT TIME, THE EARLY TIME OF THE BAND, 2002-2003, WE WERE IN THIS LITTLE VAN, AND IT WAS US VERSUS THE WORLD.

WE TALKED ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND THERE WERE LONG HOURS OF CONVERSATION, LONG HOURS OF SOLVING PROBLEMS AND WORKING TOGETHER.

THAT BOOK, IT RZ NATED WITH ALL THREE OF US.

BEYOND BEING JUST CAPTIVATING AND INCREDIBLE STORY, WE RESPONDED HEAVILY TO THE FUNDAMENTAL POINT OF THE STORY WHICH IS ABOUT TRUTH-TELLING.

ABOUT TELLING THE TRUTH.

THAT HIT US HARD, AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WE WANTED TO BE A PART OF IN THE SONG WRITING AND IN OUR PERFORMING.

AND IT WAS JUST A VERY NATURAL SORT OF EXTENDED METAPHOR THAT JUST STARTED TO MAKE SENSE TO US THAT OUR VAN WAS LIKE A DING HI, AND WE WERE IN THE SEA OF THE UNKNOWN, AND THE SONGS THAT WE WERE WRITING, THEY FELL RIGHT IN LINE WITH THIS TRUTH TELLING CONCEPT.

AS WE STARTED TO MAKE THE RECORD, IT WAS SORT OF REVEALED TO US THAT THERE WERE TOO MANY PARALLELS TO IGNORE.

>> AND JOHN, THIS HAS BEEN LIKE A FULL CIRCLE MOMENT FOR YOU, AND EXPERIENCE I WOULD IMAGINE, AN ACCLAIMED ACTOR IN YOUR OWN RIGHT AND I HAVE READ THAT MICHAEL MAYOR, THE DIRECTOR INSISTED THAT YOU PARTICIPATE AND PLAY A ROLE AS A LEADING ACTOR IN THIS PRODUCTION, IS IT TRUE THAT YOU WERE THE ONE WHO INTRODUCED MICHAEL TO THE AVETT BROTHERS MUSIC?

>> YES, I WAS AN UNOFFICIAL REP FOR THE AVETT BROTHERS, AND I AM A DIE-HARD FAN, AND I SAW THEM AT A FESTIVAL AND I BOUGHT "MINGONETT" AND I WOULD GO SEE THEM PLAY ANYWHERE I WAS NEAR, AND THEN I GOT INVOLVED WITH "SPRING AWAKENING" AND WITH MICHAEL MAYOR, AND I SAID THAT YOU HAVE TO GO SEE THIS BAND, AND THEY ARE THE BEST SONGWRITERS AND THE LIVE SHOW IS SECOND TO BEST, AND THEN I GOT MICHAEL INTO THEM, AND SO WHEN I WAS DOING "AMERICAN IDIOT" ON BROADWAY, AND I HAD THEIR POSTER ON THE WALL -- >> YOU DID NOT PAY HIM TO SAY THIS?

>> SO I MADE MICHAEL LISTEN TO MUSIC AND AS PEOPLE ALWAYS DO, HE FELL IN LOVE WITH IT, AND THEN THIS JUST ALSO RANDOMLY BECAME MICHAEL'S WAY A FEW YEARS LATER, AND THE MATT MATTISON, THE PRODUCER REACHED OUT TO MICHAEL, AND HE SAID, THIS IS AMAZING, AND IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A MUSICAL THEATER WITH THE AVETT BROTHERS YOU HAVE TO GET JOHNNY, BECAUSE HE KNOWS THE MUSIC INSIDE AND OUT.

>> AND NOT ONLY INSIDE AND OUT, YOU ARE QUOTED BY "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AS A SUPERFAN, AND YOU WERE BREAKING THE BANJO STRINGS, AND SCREAMING SO HARD, BECAUSE IT IS LIKE THEY WERE GOING TO DIE ON STAGE AND THEY WOULD DO A DISSERVICE IF WE DON'T DO THE SAME THING WITH THIS SHOW EVERY NIGHT.

CLEARLY, THAT IS THE MANTRA THAT YOU WALK ON STAGE WITH EVERY SINGLE DAY HAVING EXPERIENCED BEING SOMEONE WHO IS A SUPER FAN.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE GOLD STANDARD IS REALLY JUST SCOTT AND SETH AND THE BAND AND THEIR WHOLE ENTERPRISE, AND WE JUST, IT IS THE NORTH STAR FOR US, AND WE WOULD NOT BE DOING THE SHOW WITHOUT THE SONGS THAT THEY WROTE.

SO WHEN WE ARE OUT THERE ON STAGE EVERY NIGHT, THEY ARE ALWAYS ON OUR MIND, BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT US HERE.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DOING ON STAGE EVERY NIGHT.

THEY SET A HIGH BAR.

THAT WE ARE JUST CHASING.

WE ARE JUST CHASING IT EVERY NIGHT.

>> AND LET ME SAY THIS, THE MUSIC, INDEPENDENT OF THE MUSIC, THE CHARACTER THAT JOHN IS PLAYING, AND IF YOU SEE THE SHOW, IT IS A VERY UNIQUE CRITERIA TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THAT CHARACTER.

HIM HAVING SUCH A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SONGS, VERY MUCH HELPS TO SET THE FOUNDATION, BUT IT IS HIS TALENT AND DEDICATION THAT REALLY CREATES THE SPACE.

>> AND IT SPEAKS TO THE DEDICATION THAT YOU BROUGHT TO THE SET, AND THAT THE PRODUCERS INSISTED THAT THE ORIGINAL CAST REMAIN HEREUNTO THIS DAY AND WITH STARK SANDS AND WAYNE DUVAL AND THE FOUR MAIN CHARACTERS HERE, TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP THAT YOU BUILD WITH THEM IN THIS PRODUCTION.

>> YEAH, FROM THE FIRST REHEARSAL, IT WAS CLEAR THAT WE ARE FAMILY, AND WE CAN TRUST EACH OTHER.

WE CAN GO AS FAR AS THIS PIECE IS GOING TO REQUIRE US TO GO AND KNOW THAT WE'LL BE HELD BY EACH OTHER AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER ON STAGE.

I HAVE TWO SISTERS, BUT I DON'T HAVE ANY BROTHERS, BUT NOW I FEEL THIS REAL SENSE OF BROTHERHOOD WITH MY CAST MATTS, AND WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH SOMETHING.

AND IT IS EXTRAORDINARY, BECAUSE THERE ARE LOTS OF EMOTIONAL PLACES THAT YOU CAN GO AS A PERFORMER, BUT I HAVE NOT TOUCHED A PIECE OF MATERIAL THAT HAD THIS KIND OF THE UNNAMEABLE MAGIC TO IT THAT WHERE WE GO ON STAGE EVERY NIGHT IS, IT IS MYSTERIOUS TO EVEN US IN THAT WE KIND OF AREN'T GUIDING THE SHOW, AND IT IS FEELING THAT THE SHOW AND THE MUSIC IS CARRYING US THROUGH, AND THANKFULLY, I CAN DO IT WITH THE THREE GUYS.

>> IT IS AN ALL MALE CAST INTERESTINGLY.

>> IT IS A BIG BROTHERHOOD OF THE WHOLE CAST.

>> A BIG BROTHERHOOD, BUT BIOLOGICALLY, YOU HAVE TWO BROTHERS IN THE SHOW WHO ARE THE MAIN CHARACTERS AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF BIG BROTHER AND LITTLE BROTHER, AND I THINK THAT THE DYNAMIC BETWEEN TWO REALLY STANDS ALONE ON THIS SETA AND AS WE SEE THE EVOLUTION OF THE PLAY, AND YOU SEE THAT THE DIFFERENCE THESE TWO ACTORS BRING TO THEIR CHARACTERS, AND A I'M JUST WONDERING, YOU ARE BROTHERS IN A BAND TOGETHER, AND THE SONG PERFORMED HERE "NO HARD FEELINGS."

♪ AND WALK THROUGH THE NIGHT ♪ STRAIGHT SO THE LIGHT ♪ HOLD IN THE LOVE I HAVE KNOWN IN MY LIFE ♪ ♪ AND KNOW NO HARD FEELINGS ♪ >> WHAT INSPIRED THAT SONG?

>> IT IS A INSPIRED BY DEATH BED SONG, AND IT IS ABOUT CONSIDERING YOUR LIFE AT THE END OR THE HOPES THAT YOU HAVE FOR WHAT YOUR PERSPECTIVE MIGHT BE LIKE AT THE END THAT YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO, AFTER GOD-WILLING A LIFE OF LETTING GO, THAT AT THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU HAVE TO FINALLY EVEN LET YOUR BODY GO AS WELL, THAT YOU COULD PERHAPS BE IN A PLACE OF SETTLENESS WITH IT.

IT TOOK ABOUT EIGHT YEARS TO WRITE THE SONG.

FOR ME TO LIVE LONG ENOUGH FOR IT TO FINISH ITSELF SORT OF, BUT I CAN REMEMBER WHEN THE IDEA CAME ABOUT, I WAS DRIVING THROUGH STATESVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA, AND I WAS DRIVING AND I'M LEFT-HANDED, AND SO I AM DRIVING, AND I HAD TO GET HOME, AND I COULD NOT STOP.

I WROTE THE FIRST LINES LIKE ON THE CONSOLE AND I WAS CRYING.

AND IT WAS -- IT IS A FUNNY THING TO BE LIKE A SONG THAT I WAS WRITING MADE ME CRY AND IT SEEMS IS EGOTISTICAL, BUT YOU KNOW THEM WHEN YOU ARE SINCERELY GETTING THEM TO BE USED AS CHANNEL, AND THAT MYSTERIOUS THING THAT MUSIC IS WHEN GOD IS HANDING YOU A CONCEPT AND A MELODY WITH THE CONCEPT AT THE SAME TIME AND YOU ARE WORKING VERY LITTLE, AND ALLOWING, AND THAT IS A VERY PURE EXPERIENCE FOR ME IN MY LIFE.

>> IT IS RARE FOR A BAND TO LAST AS LONG AS YOURS, AND YOU SAID EGO IS A BIG FACTOR, AND IT IS IN ALL OF US AND IN FAME AMONGST CELEBRITIES, BUT IS IT IS EASIER OR HARDER TO KEEP THE BAND GOING AS FAMILY AS OPPOSED TO JUST FRIENDS WHO GET TOGETHER TO FORM A BAND?

>> I AM SURE THAT SCOTT HAS SOMETHING TO SAY TO THIS, BUT ONE QUICK THING THAT I SAID TO MY WIFE THE OTHER DAY, BECAUSE SHE SAID, IT IS CRAZY HOW CLOSE Y'ALL STILL ARE, AND I SAID IN A WAY, WE NEVER LEFT EACH OTHER TO BECOME SO DIFFERENT THAT WE COULD NOT CONNECT AGAIN, AND WE HAVE JUST STAYED CLOSE THROUGHOUT, AND WE ARE ON THE BUS, AND SLEEP IN BUNK BEDS NEXT TO EACH OTHER.

>> I WILL SAY ABOUT IT, THAT WE ARE SLOW IN HOW WE OPERATE, BECAUSE WE, I THINK THAT WE LOOK AT OUR BONDS WITH US AND EACH OTHER IN OUR FAMILIAL GROUP WHICH IS ALSO OUR VOCATION, AND OUR BRAND AND OUR COMPANY AS WELL, BUT WE PUT THAT BOND BEFORE WE PUT SKILL.

IT WAS NEVER GOING TO BE ARE YOU A GOOD ENOUGH GUITARIST TO LET US SING FOR YOU, BUT IT IS THAT WE ARE BROTHERS AND LET'S DO THIS BEFORE PEOPLE.

>> HMM.

>> AND AS WE HAVE BROUGHT PEOPLE INTO OUR WORLD ALONG THE WAY, BEFORE WE SAID, HEY, WE NEED A TOUR MANAGER, AND WE THOUGHT THAT WHO IS OUR BEST FRIEND WHO LOVES US THE MOST, AND WHO CARES BEING SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO CARE FOR EACH OTHER, AND LOVE EACH OTHER, AND THE SKILL AND THE TALENT AND THE SUCCESS AND THE AMBITION AND ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF ITSELF AS WE CULTIVATE THAT OTHER.

TO YOUR POINT, JOHN, I THINK THAT IS HAPPENING WITH THIS GROUP.

THAT HAPPENED WITH THE WAY THAT "NO HARD FEELINGS" WAS WRITTEN ABOUT EIGHT YEARS, AND THAT IS ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES TO WRITE A GOOD SONG OR FOR YOU HAVE TO BE WRITTEN INTO A GOOD SONG.

OR TEN YEARS INTO A GOOD SONG.

I WOULD BE SKEPTICAL BEFORE.

>> AND I AM THINKING ABOUT THE DEMONS THAT YOU FACE AND THE RANGE OF THE SPIRITUALITY AND TRUTH-TELLING, FACT-SEEKING AND THEN CANNIBALISM, AND HOW DID YOU FACTOR THAT INTO THE ARC OF THE CHARACTER?

>> IT WAS, YOU KNOW, AN INTERESTING PROCESS, BECAUSE WHEN I FIRST READ THE SCRIPT I THOUGHT, I CANNOT DO THIS, AND I HAD SAID YES TO THE PROJECT BEFORE THERE WAS A SCRIPT, BECAUSE I SAID IF JOHN LOGAN IS WRITING THE SCRIPT, AND AVETT BROTHERS AND JOHN MAYOR, AND OF COURSE I WANT TO BE IN THAT ROOM, BUT IT WAS A YEAR BEFORE I READ THE PIECE, AND THEN A YEAR LATER THEY SENT ME THE SCRIPT, AND I THOUGHT, OH, I HAVE SOME THOUGHTS HERE.

THAT IS NOT QUITE RIGHT AND I AM NOT SO SURE THAT I CAN PULL THIS OFF AND I AM REALLY RESPECTING THAT YOU THINK THAT I CAN DO THIS JOB, BUT I AM NOT SO SURE.

IT IS A LOT OF BLIND FAITH, AND I HAVE BEEN CALLED TO THIS THING AND I HAD NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THIS ROLE, BUT I SHOWED UP ON DAY ONE OF THE REHEARSAL AND JUMPED IN AND LISTENED TO THE MUSIC AND I READ THE WORDS AND I LOOKED TO MY DIRECTOR, AND EVENTUALLY, IT JUST, IT RISES UP.

IT COMES TO YOU.

I THINK THAT I -- IT SOUNDS VERY ACTOR-Y AND EMBARRASSING TO SAY, BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE, I FEEL LIKE THE CHARACTER IS PLAYING ME.

I DON'T REALLY FEEL LIKE I'M REALLY -- AND I KNOW THAT I AM DOING THE WORK OF COURSE EVERY NIGHT, BUT THERE WASN'T A TON OF LIKE THOUGHTFUL DECISION-MAKING WITH THIS ROLE.

IT WAS A LOT OF INSTINCT OF JUST, WHAT IS COMING THROUGH THE SONG AND WHAT IS COMING THROUGH THE TEXT.

>> WELL, YOU ACCOMPLISH IT.

I SAW IT OPENING NIGHT, AND IT IS JUST STELLAR AND THE PERFORMANCE AND THE MUSIC AND THE SET DESIGN AND EVERYTHING.

>> MAJOR.

MAJOR.

>> CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL OF YOU, AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> ARE YOU SPENDING THANKSGIVING TOGETHER AS A FAMILY?

>> WE ARE.

>> I WONDERED IF I SHOULD ASK.

AND AN EXTRA SEAT AT THE TABLE.

>> LET'S DO IT.

I WILL BE COOL.

I WILL BE COOL.

NOT TOO CLOSE.

>> AND EXTRA SECURITY.

>> PASS THE GRAVY, PLEASE.

>> THANK YOU, ALL.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THAT WAS SO FUN.

AND NOW FROM TARIFFS TO TAX CUTS, AND PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP PROMISES TO REVITALIZE THE UNITED STATES BRINGING IN A NEW GOLDEN AGE.

ECONOMIST LAUREN KATZ RUNS A THINK TANK THE AMERICAN COMPASS TO RESTORE THE NATION'S LIBERTY, AND HE IS LOOKING AT DISCUSSING AMERICAN FISCAL LIBERTIES AND WHAT HE THINKS OF TRUMP'S PLANS.

>> THANK YOU, BEIAN KA.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU STARTED A GROUP CALLED AMERICAN COMPASS, AND IT HAS HELPED TO SHIFT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND YOUR OWN THINKING SHIFTED AWAY FROM JUST A GROWTH-ORIENTED ECONOMY TO ONE THAT WAS MORE POPULOUS, AND TELL ME IF THAT IS RIGHT, AND EXPLAIN WHY AND HOW IT HAPPENED.

>> IT IS MOSTLY RIGHT, AND I SHOULD SAY THAT GROWTH IS RIGHT, AND I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A LOG CABIN IN THE WOODS, BUT THE WAY WE FOCUSED ON GROWTH IS GROWTH FOR ITS OWN SAKE, AND ASSUMED THAT ALL GROWTH IS GOOD, AND I ALWAYS REFER TO THAT WE ARE HEARING THE ECONOMIC PIE METAPHOR, AND XWROE THE PIE, AND THEN EVERYONE CAN HAVE MORE PIE.

WE REALLY DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS IN THE PIE OR WHO GOT HELP BAKE IT, AND MAYBE TAKE THE METAPHOR TOO FAR, BUT PEOPLE DON'T JUST CONSUME STUFF.

IT IS IMPORTANT THEIR IDENTITIES AS WORKERS AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN ECONOMY THAT STILL MAKES STUFF, AND WE ARE NOT DEPENDENT ON OTHER COUNTRY, AND I THINK THAT REALLY OVER THE LAST DECADE, AND SINCE 2012, WE SAW THE COST OF NOT CARING ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

AND SO, MY FOCUS, AMERICAN COMPASS' FOCUS, AND THE FOCUS OF CONSERVATIVES IS YES, WE WANT GROWTH, BUT WHAT KIND OF GROWTH?

HOW DO WE KNOW IT IS GROWTH THAT SUPPORTS WORKERS AND FAMILIES.

>> AND TARIFFS ARE A PART OF THE CENTER OF THE ARGUMENT OF THIS NEW CONSERVATIVE POPULISM, BUT IN SOME WAYS, CONSERVATISM AND REPUBLICANS HAVE GENERALLY BEEN FOR FREE TRADE.

WHAT CHANGED?

>> WELL, IT IS FUNNY, BECAUSE IT DEPENDS WHAT TIME FRAME YOU LOOK AT, AND REPUBLICANS WERE THE PARTY OF TARIFFS FOR MOST OF THE REPUBLICAN HISTORY, AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS PROUDLY A TARIFF MAN, AND McKINLEY AND EISENHOWER HAS A WHOLE SECTION IN HIS MEMOIR HOW HE TALKS ABOUT, YES, WE STARTED TO OPEN UP FREE TRADE AFTER WORLD WAR II, BUT WITH AN EYE FIRST AND FOREMOST TO PROTECTING THE AMERICAN WORKERS, AND EVEN RONALD REAGAN WHEN HE CAME TO JAPAN ESPECIALLY, HE WAS SO PROTECTIONIST THAT THE KATO INSTITUTE CALLED HIM THE MOST PROTECTIONIST PRESIDENT SINCE HERBERT HOOVER, AND SO IT IS A POST-COLD WAR IDEA THAT THE FOLKS LEFT OF CENTER, AND I WOULD SAY LIBERTARIAN IN THE MARKET FUNDAMENTALIST MORE SO THAN CONSERVATIVES WHO JOINED WITH THE FOLKS LEFT OF CENTER, AND THE LARRY SUMMERS OF THE WORLD, AND WHO IS BILL CLINTON'S TREASURY SECRETARY TO ALL SAY FREE TRADE IS THE ANSWER, AND FREE TRADE IS GOING TO SOMEHOW MAKE EVERYBODY BETTER OFF, AND THE REALITY IS THAT IT HAS NOT WORKED.

>> WE HAVE GONE THROUGH THE ELECTION IN WHICH INFLATION WAS THE HUGE ISSUE, AND AREN'T YOU WORRIED THAT TARIFFS COULD RAISE THE PRICE OF AMERICAN GOODS?

>> WELL, TARIFFS ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO HAVE SOME EFFECT ON THE PRICES ESPECIALLY ON THE SHORT RUN, BUT THAT IS IN PART THE POINT, RIGHT?

TO MAKE IT MORE ATTRACTIVE TO BUY THINGS MADE HERE IN AMERICA.

I THINK THAT THE RIGHT WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IS WITH THE REFERENCE TO THE PAST, TO THINK ABOUT WHERE WE WERE IN THE YEAR 2000 WHEN PEOPLE WERE SAYING THAT WE SHOULD GET RID OF THE TARIFFS AND DO FREE TRADE WITH CHINA AND THAT WILL MAKE PEOPLE BETTER OFF, AND WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, DID IT MAKE PEOPLE BETTER OFF?

YES, IT WAS CHEAPER, BUT THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICANS RECOGNIZE IT WAS NOT A GOOD TRADEOFF AND SO THE CHEAPEST THING MADE WITH SLAVE LABOR AND SUBSIDIZED BY A COMMUNIST PARTY NOT ACTUALLY CERTAINLY NOT A FREE MARKET TO BE BUYING THAT.

IT DOES NOT SERVE FAMILIES WELL, AND DOES NOT SERVE COMMUNITIES WELL, AND SO NOTHING IS FREE, AND THERE ARE TRADEOFFS IN ALL OF THE POLICY DECISIONS, BUT IF WE BELIEVE THAT WE MADE THE TRADEOFFS WRONG WHEN WE LEANED ALL IN ON FREE TRADE, THEN WE SHOULD HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT WE WILL BE GETTING THE TRADEOFF RIGHT WHEN WE GO TO OTHER WAY INSTEAD.

>> WELL, WHAT'S THE POINT OF DOING THAT?

IS IT TO BRING BACK MANUFACTURING JOBS?

IS IT TO HAVE MUCH MORE OF THE MADE IN AMERICA PROGRAM?

>> I THINK THAT THE FUNDAMENTAL GOAL IS TO BRING OUR ECONOMY BACK INTO BALANCE.

YOU KNOW, HIGH LEVELS OF TRADE COULD BE A GREAT THING IF IT WERE ACTUALLY TRADE, RIGHT?

THAT IS THE STORY THAT WAS TOLD TO US, AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN MAKE MORE EFFICIENTLY FOR US, AND WE WILL MAKE THINGS MORE EFFICIENTLY FOR THEM, AND WE WILL BE BETTER OFF, AND IF WE COULD DO THAT, THAT IS GREAT, BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED INSTEAD IS THAT THINGS THAT WE USED TO MAKE ARE MADE ELSEWHERE, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE THAT WE MAKE INSTEAD.

>> ISN'T THAT ON US?

ISN'T THAT A PROBLEM WITH OUR OWN MANUFACTURING?

>> NO, IT IS NOT.

BECAUSE THE REASON THAT EVERYTHING MOVED OFFSHORE IS NOT THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH AMERICAN WORKERS AND IN FACT, THE AMERICAN WORKERS ARE THE MOST PRODUCTIVE IN THE WORLD.

IT IS BECAUSE FOREIGN COUNTRIES ARE NOT PLAYING BY THE RULES.

CHINA AGGRESSIVELY SUBSIDIZING AND PAYING FOR THE COST OF WHAT MOSTLY WENT INTO THE COST OF MAKING THINGS THERE, AND HELPING THE COMPANIES TO EXPLOIT THE WORKERS THERE, AND ANOTHER GOOD EXAMPLE IN VERY HIGH TECHNOLOGY PRODUCTS AND THINK OF THE SEMICONDUCTORS AND WE INVENTED THE SEMICONDUCTORS AND WE WERE THE WORLD'S LEADER IN SEMICONDUCTORS AND WHY IS TAIWAN NOW THE LEADER IN SEMICONDUCTORS AND NOT BECAUSE THERE IS ANYTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THE OUTCROPPING THERE, IT IS BECAUSE CHINA'S GOVERNMENT PLOWED ALL OF THE MONEY INTO SAYING, BUILD THE WORLD'S SEMICONDUCTORS HERE, AND THE MODEL DID NOT WORK, BECAUSE THE ECONOMISTS DID NOT THINK VERY HARD ABOUT HOW THE PEOPLE, THE COUNTRIES WERE BEHAVING, AND SO I THINK THAT IF WE CAN GET BACK TO THE SITUATION WHERE THERE IS ACTUALLY A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, WE CAN GET BACK TO THE KIND OF FREE MARKET THAT CERTAINLY I WANT TO HAVE, AND THAT, THAT DOES TYPICALLY WORK FOR PEOPLE, AND YES, IT IS GREAT IF WE ARE BUYING THINGS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT THEY ALSO NEED TO BUY THINGS FROM US, AND THAT IS GOING TO CREATE BETTER JOBS AND STRONGER COMMUNITIES IN THE UNITED STATES AND IT IS GOING TO CREATE FRANKLY MORE RESILIENCE.

ONE THING THAT WE HAVE LEARNED IN THIS COUNTRY PARTICULARLY THROUGH THE PANDEMIC IS THAT IF YOU ARE RELYING ON OTHERS TO MAKE STUFF FOR YOU, YOU ARE GOING TO END UP IN A VUL NERABL POSITION.

>> NOW, YOU HAVE A RANGE OF THINGS TO BE MADE IN AMERICA IF YOU PUT A TARIFF ON THINGS RANGING FROM SEMICONDUCTORS THAT YOU MENTIONED DOWN TO LOUISIANA AND MISSISSIPPI AND WHERE IT USED TO BE A LOT OF TEXTILES AND BLUE JEANS MADE, AND DO YOU THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE ACROSS THE BOARD OR CERTAIN THINGS THAT WE SHOULD PUT TARIFFS ON OR SPECIALIZE ON IN AMERICA?

>> WELL, THE NICE THING ABOUT A TARIFF ACROSS THE BOARD IS THAT IT DOES IN A SENSE LET THE MARKET DECIDE.

SO SAY WE PUT A 10% TARIFF ACROSS THE BOARD, AND ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN MAKE IN THE U.S. FOR WITHIN 10% OF THE COST OF MAKING IT ELSEWHERE IS SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL THINK ABOUT BRINGING BACK TO THE U.S. AND IF WE DO THAT, WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY IN GOVERNMENT DECIDING, OH, THAT IS T-SHIRTS, AND OH, NO, THAT IS CHEMICALS OR, OH, NO, SEMNY CONDUCKS OR THE AND IT IS MORE CONSISTENT WITH A FREE MARKET TO SAY MAKING THINGS IN AMERICA MATTERS, AND WE WILL HAVE A THUMB ON THE SCALE OF WHAT IS MADE IN AMERICA, AND WHO IS MAKING THE INVESTMENTS, AND WHERE THE STUFF IS BUILT, IS BETTER LEFT UP TO THE MARKET, AND THEN WHEN IT COMES TO THING LIKE SEMICONDUCTORS AND IF THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOU FEEL THAT YOU WANT FOR DEFENSE OR OTHER SUPPORT, THEN YOU WILL HAVE THE CHIPS ACT WHICH IS SUPPORTING THESE CHIPS MADE IN THE UNITED STATES IS BECAUSE RIGHTLY, PEOPLE RECOGNIZE CHIPS ARE SPECIAL, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO PICK AND CHOOSE EVERY SPECIAL THING, AND WE WANT TO HAVE A BROAD POLICY TO THEN LET PEOPLE IN THE MARKET FIGURE OUT WHAT MAKES THE MOST SENSE TO BE BUILT HERE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT THE C.H.I.P.s ACT WHICH IS TO GET THE MANUFACTURING BACK, AND DO YOU THINK THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SHOULD KEEP THAT C.H.I.P.s ACT INTACT?

>> YES.

I HAVE BEEN VERY MUCH IN SUPPORT OF IT, AND IT WAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, AND IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE, AND I IT STARTED OUT AS A REPUBLICAN PROPOSAL IN DEFENSE OF THE NATIONAL DEFENSE ACT, AND SO FAR, THE INDICATIONS ARE THAT IT HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL.

THE PLANTS ARE GETTING BUILT.

THEY ARE STARTING TO COME ONLINE AND PERFORM VERY WELL.

SO, I THINK THAT IT IS A PLACE WHERE WE ARE GETTING AN EXCELLENT RETURN ON INVESTMENT.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CAT CUTS FROM BEFORE ARE SET TO EXPIRE NEXT YEAR AND I CAN'T QUITE TELL FROM READING YOU, TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU ALSO SUBSCRIBE TO WHAT IS GENERALLY THE REPUBLICAN ORTHODOXY WHICH IS TO CUT TAXES, CUT TAXES, CUT TAXES.

>> WELL, I DON'T TYPICALLY SUBSCRIBE TO THE MARKET FUNDAMENTALIST VIEW THAT WE HAVE HAD IN THE PAST FEW DECADES IN THE RIGHT THAT YOU SHOULD ALWAYS JUST CUT TAXES MORE NO MATTER WHAT, AND THAT IS A RELATIVELY RECENT THING, AND RONALD REAGAN AFTER THE INITIAL TAX CUT LEFT THE GOVERNMENT WITH LESS REVENUE THAN HE EXPECT AND HE RAISED TAXES FIVE TIMES TO DEAL WITH THE DEFICIT.

BUT WE HAVE TO RAISE TAXES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT THAT WE WANT TO HAVE, BUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN RECENT YEARS, THERE WAS A THEORY, WELL, YOU CUT THE TAXES AND THEY PAY FOR THEMSELVES OR YOU CUT TAXES, AND THIS IS GOING TO CREATE SO MUCH GROWTH WE ARE ALL BETTER OFF ANYWAY, AND IT HAS NOT COME TRUE.

>> WHEN YOU CREATED AMERICAN COMPASS, YOU SAID PART OF ITS GOAL WAS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE POST TRUMCH P RIGHT OF CENTER I GOING TO BE, AND WELL, WE ENDED UP NOT POST-TRUMP, BUT ANOTHER TRUMP, AND SO TO WHAT EXTENT IS HE A GOOD MESSENGER OR GOOD LEADER FOR THIS MOVEMENT, AND TO WHAT EXTENT DOES SOME OF WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING CONFLICT WITH WHAT DONALD TRUMP BELIEVES?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WE HAVE SEEN THAT TRUMP HAS DONE AN EXTRAORDINARY SERVICE TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT AND AS A RESULT OF THE NATION, IN DISRUPTING AND REJECTING A LOT OF THE KIND OF OLD ORTHODOXY THAT WAS NOT SERVING ANYBODY WELL.

HE HAS BROUGHT A LOT OF NEW THINKING, A SNLD OF WHICH I AGREE WITH, AND SOME OF WHICH I DON'T ON A WHOLE RANGE OF ISSUE, AND IT HAS REALLY CREATED THE SPACE FOR CONSERVATIVES TO STOP JUST FLIPPING THROUGH THE 1980 PLAYBOOK AND IMAGINING THAT IT IS ALWAYS RONALD REAGAN'S FIRST TERM, AND INSTEAD SAYK IT IS THE 2020s, AND WE HAVE DIFFERENT SET OF PROBLEMS TODAY, AND WE HAVE TO APPLY CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES TO SOLVING THOSE PROBLEM, AND SO THERE ARE SOME PLACES WHERE HE IS EXACTLY ON THE RIGHT TRACK OF TARIFFS AND TRADE POLICY IS ONE OF THOSE AREAS, BUT THERE ARE OTHER AREAS WHERE I WOULD DISAGREE WITH HIM, BUT THE DIRECTION IS -- >> LIKE WHAT?

>> WELL, LABOR POLICY IS AN AREA WHERE, I TEND TO THINK THAT WE FOCUS MUCH MORE ON WORKER POWER AND ACTUALLY BE CONCERNED WITH WORKERS HAVING LEVERAGE TO NEGOTIATE AGAINST EMPLOYERS, AND I THINK THAT HIS VIEW TENDS TO BE MUCH MORE IN THE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN MODEL OR MOLD THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO HAVE BUSINESSES TO HAVE FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, AND IF THEY DO WHAT IS BEST FOR PROFITS THEN THAT IS GOING TO END UP WORKING OUT FOR WORKERS AS WELL.

SO, THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES WHERE I WOULD SAY THAT WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRANSITION, BUT IF I AM LOOKING AT THE DIRECTION THAT WE ARE GOING, AND THE CHOICE OF J.D.

VANCE AS HIS VICE PRESIDENT AND MARCO RUBIO AS HIS SECRETARY OF STATE, WE ARE CLEARLY GOING TO A DIRECTION OF MUCH HEALTHIER AND CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT IS GOING TO BE SERVING THE INTERESTS OF WORKERS AND FAMILIES AND I THINK THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE ELECTION RESULTS FROM THIS YEAR IS THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE NOTICING THAT, TOO.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU HAVE PUSHED FOR, AND THIS ALIGNS WITH WHAT TRUMP WANTS EVEN MORE SO THAN YOU DO, WHICH IS STOPPING IMMIGRATION, AND HAVING eVERIFY, AND MASS DEPORTATIONS OF IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE HERE WITHOUT DOCUMENTATION ILLEGALLY, AND TO WHAT EXTENT IS THAT TO YOU A WAY TO HELP AMERICAN WORKERS, AND WOULDN'T THAT FUNDAMENTALLY GUT PARTS OF THE ECONOMY FROM AGRICULTURE TO CONSTRUCTION.

>> AND FIRST OF ALL TO BE CLEAR OF WHAT I WANT, I WANT TO FIRST OF ALL ENFORCE THE LAW, AND IN ANY TOPIC THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SIC LAW AND ORDER ENFORCEMENT IS THE FIRST THING, AND BASIC IMMIGRATION POLICY IS TO CONSIDER THE MARKET EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION.

WHEN WE HAVE A LOT OF WORKERS IN AMERICA, AND AMERICAN CITIZENS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE LEGALLY WHO ARE WORKING IN VERY LOW-WAGE JOBS AND STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET, THE IDEA OF BRINGING IN MILLIONS MORE WORKERS TO COMPETE WITH THEM, I THINK IT IS ABSURD.

IT DOES AN EXTRAORDINARY DISSERVICE TO THEM, AND INSTEAD, WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE IS TO MAKE A CLEAR COMMITMENT, AND THIS IS GOING BACK TO THE BASIC POINT ABOUT CAPITALISM THIS IN THE WAY TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE U.S., IF YOU ARE AN EMPLOYER AND IF YOU ARE A BUSINESS IS TO CREATE BUSINESSES THAT HAVE GOOD PRODUCTIVE JOBS THAT AMERICANS CAN AND WILL DO AND ALLOW THEM TO SUPPORT FAMILIES.

EVERY TIME BUSINESSES ARE FACING THAT CHALLENGE, THEY SET THEIR HAIR ON FIRE AND RUN AROUND SCREAMING LABOR SHORTAGE, LABOR SHORTAGE AND WE NEED MORE CHEAP LABOR INSTEAD, AND THE ANSWER HAS TO BE, NO, YOU DON'T GET MORE CHEAP LABOR, BUT YOU GET THE ENJOYMENT OF SOLVING THIS CHALLENGE, AND THAT IS TO MAKE YOUR WORKFORCE MORE PRODUCTIVE AND THAT IS THE SECRET SAUCE TO BRING PROSPERITY TO EVERYBODY, AND THAT IS THE DEMAND OF THE ECONOMY TO EASE THE PRESSURE WITHOUT MAKING A LOT OF MONEY TO DO THAT.

>> AND YOU WROTE A NOTE THAT IF MR. TRUMP BRINGS BUSINESS EXECUTIVES INTO THE GOVERNMENT TO CREATE BETTER CUSTOMER SERVICE, AND CREATE SPACE FOR MORE PRIVATE CUSTOMER INNOVATIONS, HE WILL EARN WELL DESERVED PRAISE.

IF HE UNLEASHES MORE AGENCIES, HE WILL HAVE MORE PEOPLE TO RELY AND ROLE-PLAY SCENES FROM AYN RAND NOVELS, EVEN HIS OWN PARTY WILL TURN AGAINST HIM.

AND THAT ROLE-PLAY SCENES FROM AYN RAND NOVELS EVOKES ELON MUSK.

>> WELL, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE SEGMENTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY STILL THAT WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT IS TO JUST SORT OF SLASH-AND-BURN GOVERNMENT AND GET RID OF ALL OF THE PROGRAMS, AND WHAT WE FIND WHENEVER WE DO RESEARCH ON WHAT AMERICANS ACTUALLY WANT IS THAT THEY ARE VERY FRUSTRATED WITH GOVERNMENT THAT DOESN'T WORK WELL, AND DOESN'T WORK EFFICIENTLY, BUT THERE IS ALMOST NOTHING THAT THEY WANT GOVERNMENT TO DO LESS OF.

WHEN YOU ARE ACTUALLY GOING THROUGH THE MAJOR THINGS THAT GOVERNMENT DOES, AND THE KIND OF SUPPORTS THAT GOVERNMENT PROVIDES, AND EVEN WHEN YOU ARE ASKING THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS AND EVEN TALKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE HELPING PEOPLE TO AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE, THERE IS AN OVERWHELMING PREFERENCE TO SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING THE SAME OR IN FACT DOING MORE.

NOW, OBVIOUSLY THAT HAS TO BE BALANCED AGAINST WHAT WE CAN AFFORD, AND THERE ARE SITUATIONS IF WE ARE GOING TO BE GETTING OUR BUDGET BACK IN CONTROL, WE HAVE TO GO TO FIND SOME WAYS TO REDUCE SPENDING, BUT THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE HUGE AREAS OF THE GOVERNMENT THAT PEOPLE ARE JUST HOPING THAT WE CAN GET RID OF, THAT IS A VERY NARROW UNPOPULAR APPROACH, AND I THINK THAT UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE A LOT OF LEADERS, AND SOME POLITICAL, BUT ESPECIALLY FROM THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY WHO DON'T NECESSARILY UNDERSTAND THAT, AND SO I THINK THAT THERE IS TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY FOR GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, AND THIS IS A WONDERFUL THING TO PURSUE.

AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE IDEA THAT WHAT SUCCESSFUL, AND WHETHER YOU WANT TO CALL IT POPULISM OR GOOD CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT LOOKS LIKE, IT IS NOT GETTING RID OF GOVERNMENT, BUT IT IS TO MAKE IT WORK BETTER FOR PEOPLE.

>> ORRIEN CASS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THIS IS WONDERFUL.

THANK YOU.

>> FINALLY, WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH THE REFLECTIONS ON THE POWER OF THE POSSIBLE.

CHRISTIANE HAS BEEN IN SPAIN WHERE MEN AND WOMEN'S TENNIS HAS BEEN TAKING CENTER STAGE THIS WEEK.

YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT RAFAEL NADAL PLAYED THE FINAL MATCH AT THE DAVIS CUP THERE.

A NN THE BILLY JEAN CUP, ITALY TOOK THE TITLE, AND THE NAMESAKE HAS PLAYED MUCH OF HER SPORTS, AND SHE TELLS CHRISTIANE THAT MANY OF THE PLAYERS HAVE LIVED THEIR DREAM.

>> ORIGINALLY IN 1970, IT WAS THE BIRTH OF WOMEN'S PROFESSIONAL IN 1970, AND HERE'S THE THREE THINGS, AND THIS IS THE THREE GOALS -- ANY GIRL BORN IN THIS WORLD, IF SHE IS GOOD ENOUGH, BECAUSE THIS IS PRO TENNIS, IF SHE IS GOOD ENOUGH, SHE WILL HAVE A PLACE TO COMPETE.

NUMBER TWO, THAT WOMEN WOULD BE APPRECIATED FOR OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS, NOT ONLY OUR LOOKS.

BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS ABOUT OUR LOOKS, AND OH, MY GOSH, THEN, IT WAS EVEN WORSE.

AND NUMBER THREE, AND MOST IMPORTANT, ALSO, IS THAT WE BE ABLE TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING THE SPORT THAT WE LOVE AND HAD THE PASSION TO PLAY.

THOSE WERE THE THREE THINGS THAT WHEN WE SAT DOWN.

I LOVE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY, BILLIE JEAN, YOU STARTED THE WTA AND ABOUT EQUALITY AND THIS, AND REALLY?

IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE THREE THINGS WHY WE STARTED, THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE PUT DOWN.

>> I WANT TO END ON A SORT OF BUSINESS AND YOUR PERSONAL STORY.

I HAVE HEARD YOU SAY THAT THERE H HAVE BEEN THREE GENERATIONS, AND THE FIRST GENERATIONS -- >> THE FIRST TWO, AND BY THE THIRD.

>> AND BY THE THIRD IT IS ABOUT I, AND THE PLAYERS' SENSE OF COMMUNITY, AND ON OF THE OF THAT, I HAVE HEARD YOU COULD HAVE WON A LOT MORE TITLES HAD YOU NOT BEEN WORKING FOR THE WE.

>> YEAH, BUT I MADE THAT DECISION.

>> AND I KNOW THAT YOU DID.

>> I HAVE SAT DOWN WITH MYSELF AND I SAID, IF I DECIDE TO KEEP DOING THIS AND HELP THE SPORT AND WOMEN'S SPORTS AND OTHER THING, I AMNER GOING TO WIN AS MANY TITLES.

I AM JUST NOT.

WE HAD 4:00 IN THE MORNING MEETINGS AND I CANNOT GET READY.

I AM GOING TO.

>> AND THAT IS EXTRAORDINARY AND THAT IS THE BUSINESS ASPECT OF IT, AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE EQUAL RIGHTS OF IT.

>> AND IT IS GOING TO THE 12-YEAR-OLD EPIPHANY WHEN I SAID THAT I AM GOING TO FIGHT FOR EQUALITY.

>> AND YOU WON 39 GRAND SLAM, RIGHT?

>> I GUESS.

>> THAT IS NOT TOO SHABBY.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, AND IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER PBS.COM/AMANPOUR.