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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP >>> ONE YEAR SINCE THE WEEKLONG CEASE-FIRE FREED MANY ISRAELI HOSTAGES.
THE FAMILIES OF THOSE ARE STILL HELD IN GAZA ARE CALLING FOR THEIR RELEASE.
I SPEAK TO ONE OF THEM.
>>> IS THE WORLD REACTS TO THE ICC IN DATING THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, I SPEAK TO LEADING HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER JEFFREY NICE.
THE MAN WHO PROSECUTED THE FORMER SERBIAN PRESIDENT.
>>> THE FIRST STATION EVER TO GO.
SEVEN DAYS A WEEK 24 HOURS A DAY.
THAT WAS THE FUTURE.
>> TED TURNER CHANGED THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE FOREVER WHEN HE FOUNDED CNN.
AT THE TIME, JOURNALISTS ARE UNDER THREAT AROUND THE WORLD.
A NEW DOCUSERIES TAKES US BACK TO WHERE IT ALL BEGAN.
MY CONVERSATION WITH PRODUCER JONI LEVIN AND PRODUCER KEITH CLARK.
>>> IS 2024 BECOMES THE HOTTEST YEAR ON RECORD, HARRY SRINIVASAN SITS DOWN WITH THE AUTHOR OF FIRE WHETHER TO TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US AND THE ENVIRONMENT.
>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
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AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
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COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
ON CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
ONE OF THE WARS ON ISRAEL'S ORDERS -- BORDERS COULD BE DRAWING TO A CLOSE WITH THE POTENTIAL CEASE-FIRE DEAL WITH HEZBOLLAH.
A SOURCE TELLS CNN ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS APPROVED AN AGREEMENT IN PRINCIPLE, BUT ANY DEAL WOULD STILL NEED TO BE APPROVED BY THE CABINET, WHICH IS PLANNING TO MEET AND VOTE ON TUESDAY.
LEBANESE OFFICIALS SAY DOZENS WERE KILLED IN AN ISRAELI STRIKE OVER THE WEEKEND, AND THAT THE DEATH TOLL HAS RISEN TO OVER 3000 SINCE MID- SEPTEMBER.
IN THE MEANTIME, THERE'S LITTLE HOPE FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, WHERE THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN THE NORTH HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS APOCALYPTIC BY AID OFFICIALS.
IT'S BEEN ONE YEAR SINCE THE ONLY DEAL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS LED TO THE RELEASE OF OVER 100 CAPTIVES TAKEN ON A OVER SEVEN.
AROUND 100 HOSTAGES ARE STILL BELIEVED TO BE HELD INSIDE GAZA TO THIS DAY.
AVIVA WAS RELEASED AS PART OF THAT DEAL LAST NOVEMBER.
HER HUSBAND, KEITH, AN AMERICAN ISRAELI CYST -- CITIZEN REMAINS IN CAPTIVITY.
SHE JOINS US FROM ISRAEL.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING TODAY REGARDING THE FACT THAT YOU AND ABOUT 100 OTHERS WERE RELEASED EXACTLY A YEAR AGO.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE DEAL THAT ENABLES THAT?
>> HELLO, EVERYBODY.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
I'M LUCKY TO BE SITTING HERE AND THAT EVERYBODY CAN SERIALIZE BECAUSE I NEARLY DIED IN GAZA.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE HOSTAGES OUT IS TO BRING THEM BACK WITH A DEAL AND WE KNOW THAT AFTER SO MANY MONTHS AND SO MANY DAYS, KEITH, MY HUSBAND, AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, UNDER GRIEF THE GROUND, 40 METERS UNDERNEATH THE GROUND JUST PRAYING SOMEBODY WILL COME TAKE HIM OUT AND BRING HIM HOME.
I CANNOT WAIT FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
>> DO YOU KNOW THAT HE IS UNDERGROUND?
HAVE YOU HAD WORD FROM OTHERS?
WERE YOU KEPT UNDERGROUND?
WHAT WAS YOUR SITUATION?
WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR HUSBAND IS GOING THROUGH?
>> YES, I WAS TWICE UNDERNEATH THE GROUND AND THEY WANT TO TELL EVERYBODY THAT IT'S WORSE THAN HELL.
IT'S THE WORST THING ANYBODY COULD GO THROUGH IN THIS WORLD.
WE WERE THROWN UNDERNEATH THE GROUND, 40 METERS GREAT AND WE WERE LEFT THERE ALONE.
I REMEMBER THE TWO TERRORIST THAT WERE WITH US WERE TALKING AND SUDDENLY, THERE WAS SILENCE.
AND I LOOKED AT KEITH AND I SAID KEITH, DO YOU THINK THEY LEFT US HERE ALONE UNDERNEATH THE GROUND?
IT WAS DARK.
WE COULD HARDLY SEE ANYTHING AND WE DID NOT HAVE ANY AGENDA.. WE GOT TO A STATE.
I LOOKED AT KEITH AND SAW THAT HE COULD HARDLY BREATHE AND HE SAID THAT HE FEELS THAT HE CAN'T BREATHE.
AND I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT I TOLD KEITH JUST LIE DOWN AND TRY AND BREATHE AND THAT'S WHAT WE DID.
WE WOULD JUST LAY DOWN, NOT ABLE TO EVEN TALK, TO PICK OURSELVES UP, EVEN TO SIT.
WE HAD TO LIE DOWN AND TRY AND BREATHE WHILE I WAS THINKING IN MY HEAD, WHO IS GOING TO DIE FIRST, KEITH OR I?
AND I JUST PRAYED THAT I WOULD DIE FIRST BECAUSE IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME THINKING I COULD NOT EVEN WATCH HIM, WATCH HIS CHEST GOING UP AND DOWN, UP AND DOWN WHILE I FELT THE SAME.
I JUST WANTED TO DIE.
>> HAVE YOU HEARD ANY WORD ABOUT HIM FOR MANY OF THE OTHER HOSTAGES OR ANYBODY?
>> NO, NOT AT ALL.
THE ONLY THING THAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THEY RELEASED THE HAMAS TERRORISTS, THEY RELEASED A VIDEO OF KEITH IN APRIL, MORE THAN HALF A YEAR AGO.
HE LOOKS MALE, OLD, TIRED.
HE IS BEGGING AND CRYING TO GET OUT OF THERE.
HE IS 65 YEARS OLD.
HE WAS TAKEN FROM HIS HOUSE WITH HAMAS TERRORISTS IN HIS PAJAMAS.
HE IS STILL THERE UNDERNEATH THE GROUND, WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.
BUT THE HOSTAGES ARE UNDERNEATH THE GROUND, JUST WHERE I WAS, AND I NEARLY DIED.
>> CAN I ASK YOU SINCE YOUR RELEASE, YOU HAVE BEEN PART OF A HOSTAGE FAMILY IS A GOOD GROUP, AND YOU WANT THEM BACK.
THEY MARKED THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF YOUR RELEASE AND OTHERS.
THE THEME OF THE GATHERING WAS A YEAR IS TOO LONG FOR A DEAL.
SO WHY DO YOU THINK THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANOTHER DEAL AND THERE HAVEN'T BEEN HOSTAGES RELEASED AND THAT FASHION?
>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHY IT IS TAKING SO LONG.
I DO KNOW THAT KEITH IS NOT SITTING IN FRONT OF ME AND I'M WAITING FOR HIM TO COME BACK AND I JUST WANT HIM TO COME BACK, ALIVE, I WANT HIM TO COME BACK STRONG.
AND I AM JUST SO SCARED OF WHAT KIND OF KEITH WE ARE GOING TO GET BACK.
HOW THIN HE IS GOING TO BE, WHAT IS HE GOING TO LOOK LIKE, IF HE IS GOING TO BE SO ILL THAT THEY WILL JUST TAKE CARE OF HIM FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE BECAUSE IT DANGEROUS THERE.
THE HAMAS TERRORISTS DID NOT TREAT US LIKE PEOPLE.
WE DID EVERYTHING THEY WANTED TO MAKE US FEEL THAT WE ARE NOT EVEN HUMAN BEINGS.
TAKING ALL HUMAN RIGHTS AWAY.
WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK, WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO CRY, NOT ALLOWED TO FEEL.
NOT ALLOWED TO STAND AND MOVE OUR BODIES.
KEITH, WHILE HE WAS TAKEN, HE WAS PUSHED BY THE HAMAS TERRORIST AND THEY BROKE HIS RIBS, AND THEY SHOT HIM ON HIS HAND AND HE USED IT TO BEG THEM TO LIE DOWN SOMETIMES DURING THE DAY JUST TO RELAX HIS PAIN AND THEY SAID NO.
THEY USED TO EAT IN FRONT OF US WHILE THEY STARVED US.
AND THEY USED TO DRINK WATER WHILE THEY DID NOT BRING US ANY WATER TO DRINK.
I'M A WITNESS OF ONE OF THE GIRLS THAT WAS TOUCHED, AND I JUST REMEMBER HOW FRAGILE SHE WAS AFTER IT HAPPENED, BUT SHE HAD TO CONTINUE TO THE HAMAS TERRORISTS THAT DID TOUCH HER.
I'M A WITNESS OF ONE OF THE GIRLS WHO WAS BEATEN UP INTO PIECES AND SHE WAS HIT IN SUCH A BRUTAL WAY, AND SHE DID NOT EVEN SCREAM BECAUSE SHE WAS SCARED TO.
SHE WAS SCARED THAT THEY WOULD KILL HER.
AND I REMEMBER WHEN SHE CAME BACK AFTER THEY BEAT HER, SHE WAS SHAKING AND CRYING AND I CANNOT EVEN GIVE HER A HUG.
I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO.
I'LL NEVER FORGET THEM TREATING KEITH IN SUCH A BRUTAL WAY.
SO MANY TIMES I WANTED TO JUST CRY WHILE I COULDN'T.
I USED TO LOOK AT KEITH IN HIS EYES AND TELL HIM THAT I LOVE HIM AND THAT I CARE ABOUT HIM BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY THING THAT THEY LET ME DO.
THEY TOOK CONTROL OF US IN ANY WAY THAT YOU CAN THINK OF.
I'LL NEVER FORGET MYSELF TAKING MY FOOT OUT OF THE BLANKET BECAUSE I WAS TOO HOT TO COOL MYSELF DOWN.
AND THE HAMAS TERRORIST CAME AND THREATENED ME, THAT I'M NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE MY FOOT OUT, AND THAT'S THE AMOUNT OF CONTROL THAT THE HAMAS TERRORISTS HAD ON US.
AND ONE OF THE TIMES, THEY TOOK US AND PUT LACK MATERIAL AND COVERED MY EYES AND I HAD TO WALK MYSELF DOWN THREE STAIRS, UPSTAIRS, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT HUMAN -- WHERE TO PUT MY NEXT FOOT.
I'M 63 YEARS OLD.
KEITH IS 65 YEARS OLD.
HE WAS TAKEN BY HAMAS AND HAMAS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING THERE.
AND NOT LETTING KEITH AND ALL THE HOSTAGES COME HOME.
I'M WORRIED, I'M WORRIED -- >> WE HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR.
AND OBVIOUSLY, LIKE YOU, WE REALLY HOPE KEITH AND THE OTHERS COME BACK.
AND WE JUST HOPE THAT A CEASE- FIRE IN LEBANON MAY MEAN A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA AT SOME POINT, BUT WE REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATE YOU BEING WITH US ON THIS ANNIVERSARY OF YOUR RELEASE.
I CAN JUST IMAGINE THE HORROR AND THE PAIN THAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH.
THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT KEITH AND I ARE PEACEMAKERS AND WE WANT GOOD FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.
SO PLEASE HELP US MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER WORLD FOR EVERYBODY.
>> THAT'S A REALLY STRONG MESSAGE TO AND OUR CONVERSATION ON.
THANK YOU FOR THAT.
>>> ISRAEL'S CABINET HAS VOTED TO SANCTION THE COUNTRY'S OLDEST NEWSPAPER OVER THE WEEKEND SETTING ITS COVERAGE OF THE WAR ON GAZA FOLLOWING THE OVER SEVEN BED TAX AREA THEY DESCRIBE THE MOVE AS AN ATTEMPT TO SILENCE A CRITICAL INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPER.
IN THE MEANTIME, ISRAELIS AND MANY AROUND THE WORLD ARE STILL DIGESTING THE ICCS DECISION LAST WEEK TO ISSUE AN ARREST WARRANT TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND THE DEPUTY HAMAS LEADER.
THE COURT SAID IT FOUND REASONABLE GROUNDS TO BELIEVE THAT NETANYAHU BEARS CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR WAR CRIMES INCLUDING STARVATION AS A METHOD OF WAR.
BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY DAVID LANNI SAYS THEY WOULD FOLLOW DUE PROCESS IF NETANYAHU VISITED BRITAIN.
THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER ALLIES HAVE REJECTED THE ICC WARRANT.
JEFFREY NICE IS A LEADING HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER WHO PROSECUTED THE FORMER SERBIAN PRESIDENT AT THE U.N. WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL IN THE HAGUE IN 2002.
HE JOINS ME NOW FROM CANTERBURY HERE IN ENGLAND.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, JEFFREY.
YOU HEARD -- LET ME JUST RESPOND, YOU JUST HEARD THIS DESPERATE COMMENTARY FROM A FORMER HOSTAGE WHOSE HUSBAND IS STILL THERE.
THE DESCRIPTIONS SHE MADE OF HOW SHE WAS TREATED BY HAMAS AND HOW THE OTHERS WERE TREATED BY HAMAS.
I WANT TO ASK YOU YOUR OPINION AS A LEGAL SCHOLAR, AND ONE WHO HAS PROSECUTED THESE CRIMES BEFORE.
DO YOU THINK HAMAS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH GENOCIDE AS WELL AS THE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH?
AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE.
TWO WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAEL AND ANOTHER WE DO NOT KNOW IS ALIVE OR NOT.
GENOCIDE WAS NOT PART OF THE CHARGES.
>> WHETHER THE EVIDENCE WAS STRICT ENOUGH TO MEET GENOCIDE ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.
BUT WHAT HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND WAS CLEAR BEFORE THIS CONFLICT WAS STARTING, IS THAT WHAT HAPPENS IS DONE, BOTH THE FIRING OF UNTAMED ROCKET AND HOSTAGES IS OF COURSE, CRIMINAL.
NO DOUBT ABOUT ITS ABSOLUTE WICKEDNESS.
AND INDEED, IT WOULD BE VERY HARD NOT TO BE MOVED BY THE EXTREMELY POWERFUL STATEMENTS OF YOUR PREVIOUS CONTRIBUTOR.
THAT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT HAMAS IS COMFORTABLE WITH GENOCIDE BECAUSE GENOCIDE REQUIRES PROOF OF A PARTICULAR STATE OF MIND OF A LEADER OR ANOTHER PERSON SUSPECTED OF COMMITTING GENOCIDE.
AND IT'S NOT EASY TO PROVE THAT EIGHT OF MIND, ESPECIALLY AGAINST LEADERS WHO DON'T SAY VERY MUCH.
THE LEADERS YOU REFER TO DID NOT DO.
>> JUST AS A DEVILS ADVOCATE, YOU KNOW THAT THE CHARTER TALKS ABOUT THE ELIMINATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
DOES THAT WARRANT, DOES THAT REACH A LEGAL DEFINITION?
>> I THINK THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THOUGHT OF AS A POSSIBLE OR PROBABLE COMPONENT PART OF ANY ALLEGATIONS OF GENOCIDE MADE AGAINST THOSE WHO STICK TO THAT PARTICULAR CHARGE.
SOME VARIATION, YOU CAN TELL ME IF I AM WRONG ABOUT THAT OR NOT.
BUT IT MAY BE WIDER THAN THOSE WHO CHARTED THE ORIGINAL CHARTER.
AFRAID I DON'T THINK THAT IN ITSELF IS ENOUGH.
IT MAY ALSO BE THE CASE THAT THE COURT IN ISSUING THESE ARREST WARRANTS HAS IN MIND THAT IT CAN ADD FURTHER CHARGES, ALLEGATIONS TO THE ALLEGATIONS THAT SUPPORT AN ARREST WARRANT FOR ARREST WARRANTS.
>> SO LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE HUGE SORT OF HORNETS NEST.
THAT'S THE THURSDAY INDICTMENT OF NOT ONLY MOHAMMED OF HAMAS, DEPUTY OF THE MILITARY WING, BUT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU OF ISRAEL AND HIS DEFENSE MINISTER.
THAT IS -- THE THING'S ALLEGED CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY WERE PART OF A WIDESPREAD AND SYSTEMATIC ATTACK AGAINST THE CIVILIAN POPULATION OF GAZA.
BACK IN MAY, YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU WELCOMED ALL THE INVESTIGATION, AND THE DECISION TO APPLY FOR WARRANTS.
NOW THE WARRANTS HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE PANEL AT THE ICC.
WHAT I WANT TO FIRST ASK YOU IS ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE LEVEL OF REJECTION, OF THESE WARRANTS AGAINST ISRAELI LEADERS BY ALLIES, AND MANY, MANY NEWSPAPERS AND LEADING OPINION MAKERS AND THOUGHT LEADERS?
>> NO, I'M NOT SURPRISED.
THE HORRIFYING CONFLICT BETWEEN PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, ELSEWHERE IN ISRAEL, THE STATE OF ISRAEL, GENERATES THE STRONGEST OF EMOTIONS IN POLITICIANS, AND IN COMMENTATORS AND EVEN IN MEDIA.
BUT YOU LEGAL ISSUES OF WHETHER OR NOT CERTAIN CRIMES MAY HAVE BEEN COMMITTED AND IF SO, BY WHOM, NEED TO BE ATTACHED FROM EMOTION AND LOOKED AT CLINICALLY.
SO ON ONE HAND, THERE'S NO REASON TO DOUBT THAT THE VERY EXTENDED CONSIDERATION GIVEN BY THESE JUDGES, THE MATERIAL PRESENTED TO THEM, HAS LED TO A SOLID CONCLUSION THAT IT MAY BE VERY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE ON ANY FORM OF APPEAL OR RECONSIDERATION.
IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE EMOTIONAL RESPONSE ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS CONFLICT.
AND THEREFORE, LEAD TO ENTHUSIASTIC ACCEPTANCE OF THE APPROPRIATENESS OF ENTRIES ARRESTING ESTHER NETANYAHU AND THE OTHER GENTLEMEN IF THEY FALL INTO A PARTICULAR COUNTRY.
AND ON THE OTHER SIDE TO OUTRIGHT REJECTION OF THE COURT.
IT IS UNFORTUNATE IN MY VIEW.
>> WHAT IS UNFORTUNATE?
>> IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THERE ISN'T A MORE GENERAL EXCEPT ENDS OF THE USE, AND I USE THE WORD USE PERHAPS IN A PARTICULAR WAY.
THE USE OF THE COURT BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
POWERFUL COUNTRIES GENERALLY.
WHAT YOU AND I WISH TO SEE IS THE END OF THE WAR.
WE WISH TO SEE THIS KIND OF HORRIFYING TREATMENT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES COME TO AN END.
AND I'M AFRAID OUR POLITICAL LEADERS OVERLOOK THE POTENTIAL VALUE OF INVESTIGATION.
NOT NECESSARILY CONVICTIONS BY OTHER WAR CRIMINALS, BY WAR CRIMINALS.
IT MAY OR MAY NOT AFFECT THE BEHAVIOR OF FUTURE LEADERS OF CONFLICT.
WE OVERLOOK OR THEY OVERLOOK THE VALUE OF INVESTIGATION.
IF SUPPORT HAD BEEN GIVEN BY THE ICC TO INVESTIGATE OPERATION PROTECTIVE EDGE, WHICH HAPPENED IN 2014, WHEN IT WAS GIVEN JURISDICTION.
THAT HAD ENTHUSIASTIC SUPPORT.
IT IS BY NO MEANS CERTAIN THAT WHAT HAPPENED STARTING IN OCTOBER LAST YEAR WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.
>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU, I DON'T HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME LEFT, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.
I WAS IN THE HAGUE REPORTING ON YOUR PROSECUTION OF THE SERBIAN PRESIDENT AND THE OTHER ALLEGED WAR CRIMINALS WHO ALSO WERE INDICTED ON GENOCIDE CHARGES.
AND OF COURSE, THERE WAS A WHOLE ORDER OF THEIR BACKERS WHO TOTALLY REJECTED IT.
RUSSIA, EAST EUROPEAN NATIONS, THE GLOBAL SOUTH.
THEY TOTALLY REJECTED IT.
THE SAME HAS HAPPENED ABOUT THE ICC INDICTMENT OF PUTIN.
WE KNOW THAT THE ICC HAS INDICTED THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF SUDAN AND OTHERS.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT THE LEADER OF A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY SUPPORTED BY THE UNITED DATE HAS BEEN INDICTED.
SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
THAT'S ONE OF THE FOUR LINES THAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW.
>> STANDING BACK AND NOT FOCUSING ON THE HORRORS OF THIS PARTICULAR CONFLICT, FOR THE COURT TO DELIVER ON ITS MANDATE, AND TO LOOK AT A PROBLEM THAT HAPPENS TO BE SENSITIVE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS A GOOD THING.
BECAUSE IT SHOWS THAT THERE IS AT LEAST THE POSSIBILITY OF ADMITTEDLY LIMITED VALUE THAT THERE MAY BE JUDICIAL INVESTIGATION AND PROCESSES OF AN INTERNATIONAL COURT THAT CAN STAND UP TO THE BIG PRESSURES THAT INEVITABLY COME FROM HEGEMONIC POWERS LIKE THE UNITED DAYS OF AMERICA.
AND I SUSPECT TIME WILL SHOW THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATIONS AROUND THE WORLD WOULD PREFER TO SEE THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL LAW IN THIS CASE DOING WHAT LITTLE IT MAY, BUT THE BEST IT CAN TO SEEING A CONFLICT SUCH AS THE HORROR HAPPENING IN ISRAEL, GAZA AND ON THE WEST BANK TO CONTINUE.
>> AND LASTLY, ONE OF THE STATUTE OR THE GUIDELINES IS THAT IF THE COUNTRY HAS AN INDEPENDENT AND ACTIVE JUDICIARY, AND SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE COUNTRY TO DO IT.
THE ICC SAID THERE WOULD BE NO PROGRESS SINCE IT APPLIED FOR THE WARRANTS.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
DO YOU THINK IT WAS TOO SHORT A TIME TO GIVE THE ISRAELI JUDICIAL SYSTEM A CHANCE TO LOOK INTO IT?
COULD IT HAVE DONE IN THE MIDST OF WAR?
>> THEY WERE SPECIFICALLY INVITED TO CONSIDER ASKING FOR DEFERRAL.
THEY DIDN'T.
THAT WAS ONE OF THE MATTERS DEALT WITH AS A NATIONAL JURISDICTION.
IS IT LIKELY OR POSSIBLE IN THE EMOTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THIS CONFLICT SETS, THAT ISRAEL WOULD INSTITUTE WAR CRIMES TRIALS AGAINST NETANYAHU I THINK IS LIKE NOT LIKELY.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.
>> IS THE MAN WHO CHANGED THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE FOREVER.
WHEN TED TURNER FOUNDED CNN JUNE 1980.
THE FIRST EVER 24-HOUR CABLE NEWS CHANNEL, HE DEMOCRATIZED INFORMATION BY BEAMING IT INTO HOMES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
NOW A NEW DOCUSERIES CALL ME TED TAKES US BACK TO WHERE IT ALL BEGAN, WITH AN INTIMATE LOOK AT HIS PERSONAL LIFE AND HIS TURBOCHARGED CAREER.
HERE IS A WEB.
>> I CAME UP WITH THE IDEA THAT SUPERSTITION WOULD BE A GOOD WAY TO DESCRIBE OURSELVES.
HOW COME NOBODY ELSE THOUGHT THE WORLD WAS ROUND UNTIL COLUMBUS CAME AROUND?
>> AN AMERICAN HERO.
>> HE WANTED TO BUILD THIS ENTERTAINMENT EMPIRE.
>> I SPOKE TO THE HUSBAND AND WIFE DUO PRODUCER JONI AND WRITER KEITH ABOUT TED TURNER'S GUIDING PRINCIPLES AND HIS ENDURING LEGACY.
JONI AND KEITH, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
A LOT HAS BEEN DONE ON TED TURNER.
WHAT WAS IT THAT YOU WANTED TO ACHIEVE WITH THIS SERIES?
>> YOU KNOW, I FELT ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT TED, I FELT NO ONE HAD DONE A DEEP DIVE ON HIS LEGACY AND WORK.
NOT JUST ACHIEVEMENTS, WHICH ARE MANY.
BUT REALLY LOOKING AT THOSE SHADOWS AND OBSTACLES THIS MAN HAD TO OVERCOME TO BECOME THE PERSON THAT HE IS TODAY.
THE THING THAT I LOVED ABOUT TED IS THAT HE ALWAYS FELT THAT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS WE THE PEOPLE.
THE FANS IN THE STADIUM, THE CITIZENS OF THE WORLD THAT COULD CHANGE THE MOMENTUM OF THE GAME, WHETHER IT'S CLIMATE, NUCLEAR, THE ENVIRONMENT.
PRESERVATION OF DEMOCRACY.
LIKE HE HAS DONE AND CONTINUES TO DO.
THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I FELT EVERYBODY SHOULD TAKE A PAGE FROM.
IT WAS BEING ABLE TO REALLY PUT THAT FOR US SO THAT PEOPLE CAN TAKE A LOOK AT THIS AND BECOME ACTIVE, PROACTIVE.
BE INVOLVED, BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES.
HE WAS SUCH A BELIEVER.
HE WAS TOLD NO SO OFTEN AND TURNED IT INTO ON.
THAT WAS SUCH A GREAT MESSAGE.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO DO BUT FOURTH AND WHAT I WANTED TO DO THIS.
>> DO YOU THINK YOU GUYS LEARNED ANYTHING MORE ABOUT TED THAN YOU DID NOT KNOW BEFORE BY GOING THROUGH THIS PROCESS THAT JONI HAS DESCRIBED?
>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT IS INTERESTING TO ME FROM A STORYTELLERS POINT IS JUST THIS PERSONAL JOURNEY.
WE CAN APPRECIATE THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF MANY OF THE ICONS THAT WE HAVE THERE.
INTENSE JOURNEY.
WHEN A MAN STANDS UP AND BASICALLY SAYS AT THE BEGINNING, I'M AFRAID OF ABANDONMENT.
I'M AFRAID TO BE ALONE.
I JUST THINK THAT SUCH A DEEP DIVE INTO SOMEBODY'S PSYCHE.
AND ACCOMPLISHED SO MUCH.
YET CARRYING THIS BURDEN.
BASICALLY JUST GUIDED EACH AND EVERY DAY.
>> JUST WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY ONE OF THE CLIPS YOU HAVE GIVEN US.
IT IS THE IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENED.
HOW HE WAS ABANDONED AT A VERY, VERY YOUNG AGE.
HERE IS THIS CLIP.
>> I CAME ALONG NOVEMBER 19th, 1938.
FIRST TURN FORTH -- BORN NORTH OF THE MASON DIXON LINE.
ANOTHER BABY CAME ALONG IN 1941.
THE APPLE OF MY PARENTS I.
THAT DAY WAS SIGNIFICANT.
BECAUSE WHEN THE JAPANESE ATTACKED PEARL HARBOR JUST A FEW MONTHS LATER, MY FATHER JOINED THE U.S. NAVY.
THEY DECIDED TO TAKE THEIR INFANT DAUGHTER, MARY JANE, BUT LEAVE ME BEHIND TO ATTEND THE CINCINNATI BOARDING SCHOOL.
I WAS 4 YEARS OLD.
>> HONESTLY, JUST THAT SCENE IS HEARTBREAKING.
OF COURSE, I HAVE BEEN AN EMPLOYEE AND IN THE MIRE OR -- AN ADMIRER OF MY BOSS FOR DECADES.
THE VULNERABILITY AND THE WAY YOU BETRAYED IT IS NOT SOMETHING EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT.
TELL ME WHAT DID THAT INITIAL SENSE OF ABANDONMENT DUE TO HIM?
HOW DID IT AFFECT HIM AS A YOUNG MAN AND THEN AS AN ENTREPRENEUR AND GLOBAL GAME CHANGER?
>> I THINK HE STRUGGLED WITH THAT, AND ANXIETY, A LOT.
WHAT IT DID IS ALSO PROPELLED HIM FORWARD.
AND SO IT IS ALMOST LIKE THE IDEA THAT YOU KNOW IF YOU AS A SHARK DON'T KEEP MOVING, YOU DIE.
THAT IS KIND OF TED.
HE ALWAYS NEEDED TO BE MOVING.
THERE WAS ALWAYS MORE TO DO.
ALWAYS MORE MOUNTAINS TO CLIMB.
I THINK ON ONE HAND IT WAS A POWERFUL MOTIVATOR FOR HIM.
AND YET IT ALSO WAS SOMETHING THAT ALWAYS DAMAGED HIM.
YOU KNOW, LIKE JANE SAID, HIS FATHER TRIED TO BREAK HIM AND HE DID NOT PUT I THINK HIS FATHER REALLY DAMAGED HIM.
THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE DAMAGE.
JOHN MALONE SAYS THIS WONDERFUL THING.
NO AMOUNT OF SUCCESS CAN PULL THE NEEDLE OUT OF YOUR ASS THAT HAS BEEN STUCK UP THERE SINCE YOU WERE A CHILD AND THAT WAS HIS NEEDLE.
>> LET'S JUST SAY FROM THE OUTSET, THESE ARE ALSO TITANS OF THE INDUSTRY AND I THINK THEY BOTH FEEL THAT THEY HAD A LOT TO ALL TED TURNER, WHO WAS THE TRAILBLAZER AND AS SUCH, KEITH, YOU GOT THEM AS EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS.
THEY HELPED FUND AND WERE VERY IMPORTANT INTERVIEWS THROUGHOUT THE SERIES.
>> HAD, AS YOU KNOW, AND YOU WILL SEE, IS A BIGGER THAN LIFE CHARACTER.
HE IS A PIRATE.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
CHAMPION.
LOST AT SEA.
ALL THOSE GREAT THINGS.
AND THEY LIVE VICARIOUSLY THROUGH HIM.
THE MORE CONSERVATIVE GUYS MIGHT DO SOME OF THOSE THINGS.
THEY DON'T DO IT TO THE EXTENT.
THIS GUY, YOU KNOW, GO FORTH AND SAY ALL THE THINGS AND BUST DOWN THE DOORS.
AND I THINK THAT THEY ALL ACKNOWLEDGE AT LEAST PRIVATELY I GUESS, IS THAT THEY OWE THEIR FORTUNES TO TED.
WHEN CABLE STARTED, THEY HAD A HOPE OF GETTING SOMETHING LIKE 8% OF THE AUDIENCE NATIONWIDE.
TED CAME AND SAID HELL NO, I WANT 100%.
I WANT TO COMPETE WITH THE NETWORKS.
>> JUST TO REMIND PEOPLE, I KNOW IT BECAUSE I WORK FOR CNN, BUT WITH THE RISK AND THE GAMBLE AND THE ALL IN, HE CHANGED THE ENTIRE MEDIA LANDSCAPE.
IT WAS REALLY A GLOBAL REVOLUTION.
JUST A REMINDER HOW THAT HAPPENED, HOW PERILOUS IT WAS, COULD HAVE FAILED AT ANY MOMENT ALONG THE WAY.
>> THAT GOES BACK TO TED'S NATURE.
HIS INSTINCTIVE NATURE.
HE REALLY HAD IT READ WHATEVER THE IT IS.
AGAIN, PEOPLE THOUGHT HE WAS NOT.
AND THEY ALWAYS SAID NO TO HIM.
AS I SAID, HE TOOK NO AND TURNED IT INTO ON.
THAT IS WHO HE WAS.
HE WAS ALWAYS PLANTING THE FLAG, YOU KNOW.
HE USED TO SAY HE WOULD GO AS FAR AS HE CAN AND AS FAST AS HE CAN.
WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN I GET THERE.
CNN OR CABLE OR WHATEVER IT WAS.
THAT WAS JUST HIS NATURE.
HIS INNER BELIEF IN WHO HE WAS.
THINGS WERE NOT ALWAYS TRANSACTIONAL FOR HIM.
YOU DON'T FIND THAT.
>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU THAT.
THAT'S ASKING ABOUT THOSE WHO WORK FOR HIM AND WHO HAVE BEEN IN HIS ORBIT ALWAYS ADMIRED THAT HE DID THE RIGHT THING ON CLIMATE, THE ENVIRONMENT, ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
EVEN TRYING TO BRING PEACE.
TO THE SOVIET UNION AS IT WAS.
THAT'S HIM NARRATING FROM A DIFFERENT PROJECT, HOW ESSENTIALLY HE TOOK OVER HIS FATHER'S BILLBOARD BUSINESS.
TRYING TO SAVE THAT.
BEFORE HE EVEN BECAME THE CABLE REVOLUTIONARY.
HERE WE GO.
TRUTH BE TOLD.
I DOUBT MOST PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS UP TO RUNNING THE BUSINESS ANYWAY.
AFTER ALL, IT WAS NOT LONG BEFORE THAT THAT MY FATHER HAD DECLINED ON GIVING ME EVEN THE TOP JOB IN THE ATLANTA OPERATION.
HE SAID TEDDY, YOU'RE JUST NOT GOING TO MAKE IT.
>> BUT IT WAS, I REALLY WANT TO SHOW HIM, PROVE TO HIM THAT I COULD DO IT.
FOR WHATEVER REASON, WHEN HIS DAD WAS AROUND, HE WAS ALWAYS A FAILURE.
>> TURNER ADVERTISING REPRESENTED MY FATHER'S LIFE'S WORK.
HE LOVES THE COMPANY.
WHAT HE WOULD REALLY WANT ME TO DO WAS TO SAVE IT.
>> AGAIN, I REALLY INTERESTING BEGINNING FOR HIM BUSINESSWISE.
HE IS NARRATING PART OF THAT AND THEN YOU HAVE HIS SON PICKING UP SOME OF THE STORY.
SO HE ALWAYS FELT THAT HE HAD TO SOMEHOW PLEASE HIS DAD WHO WAS IN HIS LIFE, VERY HARD ON HIM, OFTEN AND ENDED UP DYING BY SUICIDE.
THAT ALSO IS A BIG BURDEN THAT HAD CARRIED THROUGH HIS LIFE.
>> I THINK TED WAS HAUNTED BY HIS FATHER.
I THINK FOR TED, WHO LOVED HIS FATHER, EVEN THOUGH HIS FATHER ABUSED HIM, PHYSICALLY ABUSED HIM, BEAT HIM AND ALL OF THAT STUFF.
AS JANE SAID, HIS FATHER TRIED TO BREAK HIM, BUT COULDN'T.
I THINK IT'S ALSO THAT SENSE THAT HAUNTED TED.
HIS FATHER WAS A WOMANIZER.
AND THAT WAS TED, TOO.
HIS FATHER WAS NOT AROUND FOR HIS KIDS.
FOR TED WHEN HE WAS YOUNG.
AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER, TED HAVE THIS FABULOUS REVELATION OF WHAT WAS IMPORTANT.
HE HAD THREE THINGS IN HIS LIFE.
HE HAD FAMILY, BUSINESS AND SAILING.
HE WAS NAMED SAILOR OF THE YEAR FOUR TIMES IN A DECADE.
HE WON THE AMERICA'S CUP.
HE SURVIVED A RACE WERE 15 OTHER PEOPLE DIED AND 80 BOATS WERE SUNK.
THE WORST DISASTER IN HISTORY.
AND TED IS AT THIS CROSSROADS STARTING CNN.
WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME?
YOU LOOKED AROUND AND AT ONE POINT, HE DISCARDED HIS VALUE AND SAID WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME IS SAILING IN BUSINESS.
AND THEN SAID YOU KNOW WHAT, VALUE IS MORE IMPORTANT.
BUSINESS IS IMPORTANT.
I'M GOING TO PUT THEM WITH THE OTHER LEVEL OF MY LIFE, SAILING AND HE QUIT AND FOCUS ON HIS FAMILY AND BUSINESS.
>> I THINK THAT IS REALLY THE ARK OF HIS STORY.
HE'S NOT A RIGHTEOUS MAN.
HE STARTED OFF SOMEWHAT SELFISH, I WOULD SAY.
IT THEN BECOMES MORE SELFLESS WHEN HE DOES REALIZE IT'S NOT ALWAYS ABOUT HIM.
IT'S WHAT YOU HAVE LEFT AT THE END.
THE FAMILY, THE ENVIRONMENT.
AND IT'S OUR PLANET BECAUSE HE LOVES THE PLANET.
HE LOVES THE PEOPLE WITHIN THE PLANET.
THAT'S HIS WHOLE GOAL TO SAVE.
SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK THAT IS ULTIMATELY WHERE HE GOT TO.
>> FINALLY, I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T REALLY TALKED ABOUT THE IMPACT OF CNN ON THE WORLD.
WHAT WILL THE SERIES TELL ABOUT CNN, ITS ORIGINAL PROMISE, HOW IT NEXT LOADED ON TO THE WORLD OBVIOUSLY DURING THE FIRST WAR AND NOW THAT LEGACY MEDIA IS BEING OVERTAKEN BY PODCAST, SOCIAL MEDIA, STREAMING.
>> WHEN IT FIRST STARTED, TED ALWAYS FELT IT WAS NOT ABOUT THE PERSONALITIES.
IT WAS ABOUT GIVING THE FACTS, STATE THE FACTS AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THINGS.
AND THAT IS WHAT HE WAS ALL ABOUT.
AND YOU KNOW, WANTED TO BE INTERNATIONAL, WANTED TO BE EVERYWHERE.
THAT REALLY STARTED WITH CASTRO, AFTER HE REALIZED CASTRO LOOKS AT CNN ALL THE TIME.
THAT IS WHEN TED CAME HOME AND PICKED UP THE PHONE AND STARTED CALLING ALL THESE OTHER COUNTRIES TO SET IT UP.
BUT YOU KNOW THAT YOU WERE THERE AT CNN EARLY ON WHEN YOU ARE WONDERING WHETHER HE COULD EVEN PAY THE BILLS.
SO FOR HIM, I THINK IT WAS THE IDEA OF CONNECTING THE WORLD.
I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY I THINK HIS WHOLE GOAL IN THE BEGINNING, WAS MAKING SURE THAT -- WE SHOULD ALL BE CONNECTED IN A SENSE.
>> CNN CHANGED THE WORLD BUT I THINK CNN CHANGED TED.
>> I DEDICATE THE NEW CHANNEL FOR AMERICA.
>> I THINK THAT IS WHEN HE REALIZED THAT THE WORLD IS BIGGER THAN HIS LITTLE WORLD OF ATLANTA, SAILING, ALL OF THESE THINGS.
WHEN HE WENT AND STARTED THESE THINGS, THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD ALL WANTED TO MEET TED BECAUSE OF THE REACH OF CNN IN ITSELF.
EVERYBODY COULD TAP INTO WHAT THE AMERICANS WERE THINKING, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, BUT IT CHANGED TED.
THAT'S WHEN HE SAID THE WORLD IS BIGGER THAN ME.
I'M INTERESTED IN THE ENVIRONMENT.
HOW CAN I USE MY PLATFORM TO GO OUT THERE?
AND THE GUY WAS A ROCK 'N ROLL STAR.
>> JONI, KEITH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> AND THAT'S A REMARKABLE STORY.
THE SIX PART DOCUMENTARY IS NOW STREAMING ON MAX, WHICH IS OWNED BY CNN PARENT COMPANY WARNER BROS.
DISCOVERY.
THE ANNUAL CLIMATE SUMMIT THAT WRAPPED UP IN AZERBAIJAN OVER THE WEEKEND.
AFTER WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH OVER WHICH POLLUTING NATIONS SHOULD BE PAYING POORER NATIONS TO DECARBONIZATION MITIGATE THEIR CLIMATE CRISES.
THE DEAL STRUCK WAS ABOUT A QUARTER OF WHAT THEY HAD ASKED FOR.
THIS COP 29 IN OIL-PRODUCING AZERBAIJAN FOLLOWS LAST YEAR'S IN THE UAE, AND HAMMERED OUT A LANDMARK COMMITMENT TO TRANSITION AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS.
SAUDI ARABIA HAS BEEN LOBBYING TO DERAIL THAT COMMITMENT EVER SENSE.
AND HOPES DONALD TRUMP'S RETURN TO THE WHITE HOUSE WILL HELP GIVEN HIS DRILL, BABY, DRILL POLICIES AND CABINET PICKS FILLED WITH INDUSTRY EXECUTIVES AND THE REGULATORS.
WILDFIRES SPREAD ACROSS NORTH AMERICA WITH INCREASING FREQUENCY.
THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THAT AND THE HARSH POLICY IS BEING FELT.
HE DETAILS THIS IN THE RECENT NEW YORK TIMES OPINION PIECE AND JOINS HARRY SRINIVASAN IN THIS DISCUSSION.
>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.
AMERICANS, AND NORTH AMERICANS IN GENERAL ARE USED TO SEEING NOW THE FOREST FIRE SEASON.
AND WE ASSOCIATE IT WITH, SAY, CALIFORNIA, MAYBE COLORADO.
YOU WROTE A PIECE RECENTLY THAT SAID LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE NORTHEAST IS BURNING.
WHY IS IT SIGNIFICANT?
WHAT'S THE CHANGE HERE?
>> I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THIS CREEPING OF FLAMMABILITY.
LIKE SO MANY OTHER AMERICANS AND CANADIANS, WE ASSUMED 10 YEARS AGO THAT WILDFIRES WERE A CALIFORNIA PROBLEM, MAYBE A COLORADO PROBLEM.
MAYBE IN AUSTRALIA PROBLEM, BUT I LIVE IN BRITISH COLUMBIA, TECHNICALLY A RAIN FOREST AND WE'VE BEEN HAVING TERRIBLE FIRE SEASONS FOR THE PAST DECADES.
ASIDE CREEPING NORTHWARD INTO OREGON, INTO WASHINGTON AND INTO BC.
AND SO LOGICALLY, YOU WOULD THINK OKAY, THIS IS STILL MOVING.
AND I THINK IN THE NORTHEAST WHERE I GREW UP, WE ARE IN A VERY FAMILIAR LANDSCAPE WHERE WE HAVE THIS SENSE THAT WE WANT TO BE TOUCHED BY THAT.
IT'S A WESTERN THING, AN AUSTRALIAN THING.
NICE AND WET HERE.
COOL AND GREEN.
AND WE HAVE THIS TREND IN HEATING, WARMING, AND DRYING.
SPREADING STEADILY AND MEASURABLY IF YOU TALK TO FORRESTER'S AND HYDROLOGIST, THEY HAVE THE INSIDE SCOOP ON IT.
THEY ARE NOT SURPRISED BY THIS.
THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW IS IN THE DRIEST YEAR IN RECORDED DROUGHT HISTORY FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.
>> HELP OUR AUDIENCE DISTINGUISH IN THEIR MINDS WHAT MIGHT BE THE WEATHER VERSUS WHAT MIGHT BE CLIMATE.
RIGHT NOW AS WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, I'M DOING THIS FROM NEW YORK CITY AND WE ASK ARYANS ONE OF THE LONGEST DRY SPELLS.
WE ARE STARTING TO SEE THIS FROM A MONTH AND A HALF WITHOUT RAIN.
HELP US PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE THAT IT'S MAYBE NOT JUST THIS YEAR OR THIS CYCLE WITH THE LONGER TRENDLINES.
>> SO THERE ARE THESE TWO TRACKS THAT WE ARE ON AND ONE IS NATURAL LIMIT FLUCTUATION.
WE HAVE WARM YEARS, COLD YEARS, SNOWY WINTERS, DRY WINTERS, BUT THEN YOU ALSO HAVE -- THAT'S NATURAL TO SEE FLUCTUATION THERE.
ON TOP OF THAT, THOUGH, WE HAVE FOSSIL RULED THE MISSION DRIVEN CLIMATE CHANGE WHICH IS MEASURABLY HITTING THE ATMOSPHERE AND THE OCEANS.
SO THAT IS THIS EXTRA PUSH FROM BEHIND.
WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS RECORD TEMPERATURES.
WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS WARMER TEMPERATURES IN THE NORTHEAST.
THINK ABOUT YOUR LAUNDRY OUTSIDE ON A WARM DAY, IT WILL DRY FASTER.
SO DOES THE FOREST FLOOR AND THE GRASSES.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT GLOBALLY, IT IS NOT JUST THE NORTHEAST WITH LOW RESERVOIRS.
ONE OF THE GREAT RIVERS OF THE CANADIAN NORTH IS RIGHT NOW AT RECORD LOW LEVELS.
THERE ARE HUGE LAKES IN THE CANADIAN SUBARCTIC.
AND SEES THAT ARE AT RECORD LOW LEVELS.
THE AMAZON RIVER IS AT A RECORD LOW LEVEL.
THIS IS A GLOBAL ISSUE.
WHEN YOU HAVE WARMER AIR, YOU HAVE MORE EVAPORATION.
>> WHAT IS SO UNSEASONABLE ABOUT THIS?
SO OUT OF THE ORDINARY THAT EVEN OUR BODIES FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE?
>> I GREW UP IN MASSACHUSETTS.
I REMEMBER SNOW FLURRIES IN OCTOBER.
I SOUND LIKE AN OLD MAN SAYING THAT BUT I DON'T THINK ANYBODY OF ANY AGE REMEMBERS HUNDREDS OF WILDFIRES BURNING UP AND DOWN THE I-95 CORE DOOR.
THAT'S NOT ANYBODY'S DIARY.
WE REALLY ARE GOING THROUGH THIS VISIBLE, MEASURABLE CHANGE AND WE ARE FEELING IN OUR BODIES.
IT'S CHANGING OUR CONCEPT OF WHAT THE SEASONS ARE.
SO NOW OUT WEST, PEOPLE'S CONCEPT OF SUMMER, RATHER THAN BEING THIS TIME OF LIBERTY, FREEDOM AND BEING OUT SIDE, WHEN IS THE SMOKE GOING TO ROLL IN?
WHEN AM I GOING TO HAVE TO STAY INSIDE BECAUSE IT IS TO SMOKY?
BETWEEN BRITISH COLUMBIA, AND WASHINGTON STATE, IT'S NOT A REALITY THAN ANY OF US GREW UP IN.
OUR CONSCIOUSNESS IS BEING FORCED INTO THIS NEW CONCEPT OF WHAT SEASONS EVEN NEED AND THAT CREATES A REAL DISSONANCE.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WE HAVE BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME, NOT JUST IN NORTH AMERICA BUT AS SAPIENS ON EARTH.
I HAVE NEVER HAD TO GO THROUGH A CHANGE THIS RAPID WHERE IN A DECADE OR TWO WE ARE ACTUALLY HAVING TO ALMOST REDEFINE WHAT SEASONS ARE.
>> YOU WROTE A FASCINATING BOOK CALLED FIRE WEATHER.
IN IT, YOU DESCRIBED THE FIRE IN 2016 IN ALBERTA, CANADA.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED IN THERE IS THAT ESSENTIALLY NOW FIRES ARE BURNING OVER A LONGER SEASON WITH GREATER INTENSITY THAN ANY OTHER TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.
WHY IS THAT?
>> THERE ARE A COUPLE OF FACTORS.
ONE OF THEM, THE SIMPLEST ONE, IS THE HEAT THAT WE ARE GENERATING.
WHAT THE IRONY IS IS THAT OUR ECONOMY, OUR CIVILIZATION IS POWERED BY FIRE.
WE THINK ABOUT OIL AND GAS AS ENERGY, BUT IT DOES NOT BECOME ENERGY UNTIL WE BURN IT, SO WE ARE BURNING TRILLIONS OF FIRES AROUND THE GLOBE IN OUR ENGINES, IN OUR FURNACES, HOT WATER HEATERS, IN OUR STOVES GLOBALLY.
THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF FIRE AND ALSO EMISSIONS COMING OFF OF ALL OF THOSE FIRES.
IMPACT ON THE ATMOSPHERE IN TERMS OF CO2 AND METHANE MAKING THE WHOLE PLANET HOTTER.
AND THE IRONY IS THAT MAKES THE PLANET MORE CONDUCIVE TO BURNING.
SO YOU CAN COUPLE THAT THAN WITH 100 YEARS OF VERY SICK DECIBEL FIRES OF RUSSIAN, ESPECIALLY IN NORTH AMERICA, SO NOW YOU HAVE THESE HUGE BUILDUPS IN THE FOREST INCLUDING THE NORTHEAST.
WHICH LOGOFF 150 YEARS AGO.
WITH THESE ELEVATED TEMPERATURES, MORE ELEVATION, YOU HAVE A DRYER FOREST, AND IT'S EASIER FOR THE FIRES TO GET GOING.
IN FORT McMURRAY, THIS PETROLEUM HUB OF CANADA, WHICH IS 600 MILES NORTH OF THE MONTANA BORDER IN THE SUBARCTIC, IT WAS 93 DEGREES.
THERE WAS ICE ON THE LAKES.
93 DEGREES.
THE RELATIVE HUMIDITY THAT DAY, MAY 3rd, 2016, WAS 12%, EQUIVALENT TO DEATH VALLEY IN THE MONTH OF JULY.
SO, WE ARE HAVING THESE CONDITIONS THAT CREATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR FIRE THAT WE REALLY HAVE HARDLY EVER SEEN BEFORE.
>> THERE WERE IN THE FIRE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, 88,000 PEOPLE THAT WERE EVACUATED, RIGHT?
AND WHEN YOU SEE IMAGES OF FIRE APPROACHING DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY THE UNITED STATES, WE SEE A MIX OF REACTIONS.
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE I CANNOT WAIT TO GET OUT.
I AM STUCK IN TRAFFIC.
THIS IS HORRIBLE.
DON'T WANT TO DIE HERE.
AND THERE'S OTHER PEOPLE WHO, SIMILAR TO A HURRICANE, AND UP TRYING TO HUNKER DOWN AND TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS IS MY REALLY, REALLY PRECIOUS HOME.
I WILL STAND HERE WITH A FIRE HOSE.
WHAT EXPLAINS HOW THIS AFFECTS PEOPLE, AND FIGURING OUT AND OF THEIR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP TO THE ENVIRONMENT, THEIR BELONGINGS.
>> THIS IS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS OF THE DECADE.
AS FIRE IMPINGES MORE ON OUR COMMUNITIES BECAUSE IT BURNS FASTER AND MORE INTENSELY NOW BECAUSE OF HEAT.
IN FACT, THAT WAS A COVER STORY, THE CHANGING NATURE OF WILDFIRE, HOW FAST IT MOVES.
MANY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN FIRE PRONE PLACES ESPECIALLY OUT WEST HAVE A KIND OF OUTDATED NOTION OF FIRE, AND WHAT THEY MIGHT DO TO COMBAT IT.
NOW FIRES ARE MOVING FASTER.
SUCH INTENSITY THAT THEY CAN PROJECT RADIANT HEAT CLOSE TO 1000 DEGREES.
A HUMAN CANNOT SURVIVE THAT.
WHAT IS YOUR HOME IS UNINSURED, OR WHAT IF YOU LIVE ON A RANCH AND YOUR GRANDFATHER FOUGHT FIRES AND YOUR MOM THOUGHT FIRES AND SO YOU ARE GOING TO, TOO, EXCEPT NOW IT IS 110 DEGREES.
AND THE RELATIVE HUMIDITY IS IN THE SINGLE DIGITS.
THIS IS NOT JUST GOING TO BE A FIRE ON THE LAND.
IT WILL BE A FIRE STORM ROLLING OVER YOU.
AND I THINK THERE IS A NATURAL STUBBORNNESS AND I WISH TO PROTECT WHAT IS OURS.
BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE MEANS TO REPLACE IT, YOU DON'T HAVE INSURANCE, WHICH FEWER AND FEWER AMERICANS HAVE NOW, IT'S GOING TO CHANGE YOUR CALCULUS.
THERE'S A FEW DIFFERENT FACTORS.
SOME OF IT IS GOING BACK TO CONSCIOUSNESS AND THINKING ABOUT HOW WE ARE NEEDING TO CATCH UP WITH THE CLIMATE.
THE CLIMATE IS MOVING BEYOND US RIGHT NOW.
WE STILL HAVE OUTDATED NOTIONS OF IT.
IT'S CAPABLE OF NEW OUTRAGES NOW.
WE HAVE SEEN IT IN THE FLOODING AFTER HURRICANE HELENE.
WE'VE SEEN IT IN THE FIRES.
REALLY SHOCKING ENERGY.
>> I WONDER WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO LONG FOR THE CAPITAL MARKETS, THE INSURANCE PROVIDERS TO REFLECT THESE CLIMATE REALITIES .
WE SEE NOW A NUMBER OF STATES WERE 12 INSURANCE CARRIERS ARE SO PULLED OUT OF CALIFORNIA IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE ENSURING WILDFIRES.
WHAT HAPPENS TO CAPITAL MARKETS REFLECTING THE RISK APPROPRIATELY?
>> THERE IS EXTRAORDINARY DISSONANCE IN THE FINANCIAL SECTOR.
SO YOU HAVE THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY WHO DOES THE MATH, AND THEY REALIZE THAT WE CANNOT AFFORD THESE LOSSES ANYMORE.
I UNDERSTAND THAT 50 INSURANCE COMPANIES HAVE PULLED OUT OF LOUISIANA AND FLORIDA ALONE IN THE PAST FOUR YEARS.
I DID NOT EVEN KNOW THERE WERE 50 INSURANCE COMPANIES THERE.
THEY CAN NO LONGER AFFORD TO COVER LOSSES ON MULTIBILLION- DOLLAR DISASTERS, WHICH ARE HAPPENING ALMOST ANNUALLY NOW.
SO THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY IN A WAY AS THE GROWN-UPS IN THE ROOM ARE ACTUALLY OBSERVING THE DAMAGE DONE AND TABULATING IT IN THIS QUITE OBJECTIVE WAY.
MEANWHILE, YOU HAVE THE PETROLEUM INDUSTRY, FINANCIAL MARKETS WHO ARE VERY BULLISH ON ANYTHING THAT APPEARS TO MAKE MONEY.
THERE'S A LOT OF INVESTMENT IN OFFSHORE DRILLING RIGHT NOW.
THERE IS A TERRIBLE DISCONNECT AND CONFLICT OF INTEREST, EVEN WITHIN THE FINANCIAL MARKETS.
SO THAT'S ANOTHER RECKONING FOR THE 2020S.
WE HAVE TO SQUARE UP OR NATURE IS GOING TO SQUARE IT UP FOR US.
>> AT THE MOMENT, THE NOMINATIONS THAT PRESIDENT ELECT TRUMP HAS FOR HIS EPA CHIEF HAS GOT A FOSSIL FUEL EXECUTIVE.
AND HE HAS MADE NO SECRET ABOUT, TRUMP, THE PARIS ACCORDS, SO WHAT DOES THAT DO TO ANY KIND OF COHESIVE POLICY?
>> IT PUTS US IN A REALLY VULNERABLE POSITION, WHEN YOU EFFECTIVELY HAVE A POLICY OF LIMA DENIAL, WHICH THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA DOES.
AND IT LOOKS LIKE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEY HAVE.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE THE LEADERS SAYING THIS ISN'T HAPPENING, THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE, AND YET WE ARE HAVING BILLION-DOLLAR DISASTERS THAT ARE UNINSURABLE EVERY YEAR.
WE ARE HAVING BIGGER FIRES, BIGGER FLOODS.
SO THERE IS -- WE CANNOT REALLY FUNCTION AS A SOCIETY, AND IN A WORLD THAT'S LIVING BY TWO DIFFERENT REALITIES OR DIFFERENT STANDARDS.
SO THE UPSHOT FOR THE CITIZEN IS SUFFERING AND CONFUSION.
THE UPSHOT FOR THE STATES IS THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE MORE INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY AT THE MUNICIPAL LEVEL AND THE STATE LEVEL FOR MANAGING THEIR OWN CLIMATE POLICY WHEN IN FACT, THE SCIENCE IS OBJECTIVE.
>> WHAT DOES THAT SCENARIO LOOK LIKE AS THE MATH BECOMES LESS INHABITABLE FOR DIFFERENT CLIMATE REASONS?
>> EXACTLY.
WHERE DO YOU GO?
THERE IS A CONTRACTION THAT WILL HAPPEN, DRIVEN BY THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY.
SOME PEOPLE STILL REMAIN WITHOUT INSURANCE.
YOU ARE REALLY EXPOSED AND THAT IS THE KIND OF VULNERABILITY THAT MAKES IT HARD FOR SOCIETIES TO FUNCTION WELL.
SENATOR SHELDON WHITEHOUSE FROM RHODE ISLAND PUT IT REALLY WELL WHEN HE SAID WITHOUT INSURANCE, CLIMATE DISRUPTION MAKES PLACES, MAKES HOMES UNINSURABLE.
AND WHEN A HOUSE IS UNINSURABLE, IT'S HARD TO GET A MORTGAGE.
WITHOUT A MORTGAGE, THAT IMPACTS THE HOUSING INDUSTRY.
WHEN IT IMPACTS THE HOUSING INDUSTRY, YOU DO NOT HAVE A FUNCTIONING ECONOMY BECAUSE THAT IS ONE OF THE PILLARS OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY.
IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
IT'S QUITE SIMPLE.
WHEN YOU ARE PUTTING THESE VULNERABLE SITUATIONS, WHEN YOU DON'T DEAL WITH CLIMATE, DON'T DEAL WITH CO2, AND BECOMES MORE FLAMMABLE, MORE FLAMMABLE, THAT WILL HAVE DIRECT, MEASURABLE IMPACTS AS WE ARE SEEING IN THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY ON OUR ENTIRE ECONOMY.
LOOKING TO ADDRESS CLIMATE IN A MEANINGFUL WAY WHICH WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE THE TOOLS TO DO.
>> IS THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY ABLE TO GET ITS ARMS AROUND IT?
IT SEEMS IN RECENT MEETINGS, THE STATES PRIMARY ECONOMIC BRIBERY IS IN FOSSIL FUELS.
THIS HAPPENED IN AZERBAIJAN.
I WONDER IF THEIR EFFORTS TO TRY TO CREATE FUNDS TO MITIGATE ON IT DISASTERS, BUT IT'S ALWAYS HUNG UP ON WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT OR HOW MUCH ARE THE SMALLER COUNTRIES WHO MIGHT FEEL A GREATER BRUNT OF IT BY THEIR GEOGRAPHY, HOW MUCH DO THEY -- HOW MUCH ARE THEY ENTITLED TO?
HOW MUCH TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GENERATING THE FOSSILS AND OMISSIONS OF?
>> THERE IS NO MITIGATION FUND THAT'S GOING TO COVER THE GLOBAL CLIMATE DAMAGE BILL.
WHEN YOU LOSE AN ENTIRE ISLAND, AN ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD, MY UNDERSTANDING EVEN JUST FOR HURRICANE HELENE, WHICH IS ONE HURRICANE, I THINK THE TAB THAT IS OVER $150 BILLION.
MILTON RAN ON THE HEELS OF THAT, THAT'S RIGHT UP THERE, TOO.
NO ONE TALKS ABOUT HURRICANE JOHN WHICH CAME IN AT THE SAME TIME AND TRASHED THE RESORT CITY FOR THE SECOND TIME IN 11 MONTHS.
THAT'S A WHOLE TOURIST CITY.
THE WHOLE ECONOMY WIPED OUT.
WHO IS GOING TO BUILD THERE NOW?
THESE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE DROPS IN THE BUCKETS THAT'S REALLY GOING TO BE TENS OF TRILLIONS.
THAT JUST HIGHLIGHTS THE DISSONANCE.
THERE IS A DEEP LONGING THAT WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO.
AND THE UNEVEN TRANSITION INTO RENEWABLE ENERGY WHICH IS HAPPENING IN PARALLEL WITH OTHER THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT.
IT'S UNSTOPPABLE, BUT IT'S A PATCHWORK AT THE MOMENT.
>> THE BOOK IS CALLED FIRE WEATHER.
THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
>>> HUNDREDS OF CLIMATE ACTIVISTS GATHERED IN SOUTH KOREA TO SHOW US LIFE IN PLASTIC IS NOT FANTASTIC.
FORMING A GIANT HUMAN SIGN URGING TO AND PLASTIC, THEY ARE CALLING FOR MEANINGFUL CHANGE TO COME OUT OF THE UNITED NATIONS PLASTIC TOUR WHICH BEGAN TODAY.
MANY HOPE TO SEE AN END TO OUR DEPENDENCE AND PLASTICS TO PROTECT OUR LAND AND OUR OCEANS.
THE CONTINUED ACTIVISM OF BAROMETERS TO KEEP UP THE GOOD FIGHT FOR A BETTER CLEANER FUTURE.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FOR NOW.