December 10, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WHILE SYRIANS CELEBRATE, I SPEAK TO YOU FOREIGN-POLICY CHIEF ABOUT BASHAR AL ASSAD'S FALL, THE BLUE TO VLADIMIR PUTIN AND WHAT COULD BE NEXT FOR UKRAINE.

THEN.

>> IT SEEMS LIKE THE WORLD IS GOING A LITTLE CRAZY RIGHT NOW.

>> THE TRUMP DOCTRINE.

FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL ELBRIDGE COLBY LAYS OUT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WORLDVIEW JUST WEEKS BEFORE HE RETURNS TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

>>> PLUS -- >> THERE'S A LOT OF HISTORY AND PRECEDENT THAT SAYS THIS PROCESS WORKS.

>> THE CASE FOR BACKGROUND CHECKS.

NOAH BOOKBINDER, FOR COUNSELORS TO THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, TELL HARI SREENIVASAN TRUMP'S CABINET PICKS MUST BE VETTED BY THE FBI.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON A NEW ERA AGAINST IN SYRIA AS REBELS APPOINT A CARETAKER PRIME MINISTER FOR THREE MONTHS IN ORDER TO OVERSEE A TRANSITION OF POWER.

THE REALITY OF LIFE WITHOUT ASSAD IS SINKING OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT ONCE JUBILANT AND BROKEN AS THE ATROCITIES OF THE GYM ARE BROUGHT TO THE SURFACE.

ON THE LEVEL, RUSSIA AND IRAN ARE TRYING TO DOWNPLAY THE SEVERITY OF THE BLOW EVEN AS U.S. AND ISRAEL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE MOMENT TO BOMBARD TARGET INSIDE SYRIA.

WE WILL EXAMINE THE GLOBAL FALLOUT AND CONSEQUENCES IN A MOMENT.

FIRST, RUMORS OF FLEW IN THE FIRST HOURS OF THE FALL OF SECRET PRISON CELLS LOCKED BY FLEEING GUARDS , DEPRIVING THEM OF FOOD, WATER, AND EVEN OXYGEN.

TODAY, THE ASSOCIATION OF DETAINEES AND THE MISSING SAY EMPTY WITH THE WHITE HELMET RESCUERS CONFIRM "NO EVIDENCE OF UNDISCOVERED SECRET CELLS OR BASEMENT ."

FOR THAT CONFIRMATION FUELED BY FEAR AND DESPERATION, THOUSANDS OF RELATIVES WENT UP THERE IN SEARCH OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN CONDEMNED TO ASSAD DUNGEONS.

HERE IS CORRESPONDENT CARISSA WARD.

>> Reporter: THE ROADS ARE CHOKED WITH CARS FULL OF PEOPLE LOOKING FOR LOVED ONES .

AS SOON AS THEY SEE OUR CAMERA, THE APPROACH, HALTING LISTS OF NAMES OF THOSE WHO VANISHED INSIDE ASSAD'S DUNGEONS NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN.

YOU HAVE TO GET THEM OUT BEFORE TOMORROW, THIS MAN SAYS.

THEY DON'T HAVE FOOD, THEY DON'T HAVE WATER.

>> EVERYONE HAS JUST STARTED RUNNING.

IT IS NOT CLEAR IF THEY HAVE MANAGED TO GET INTO THIS PART OF THE PRISON.

"MY GOD, MY GOD.

MY GOD."

AS THE CROWD SURGES TOWARD THE PRISON.

IT LOOKS LIKE THEY THINK THAT THEY HAVE MANAGED TO TO GET ACCESS.

A LOT OF CELEBRATORY GUNFIRE, PEOPLE ARE JUST FLOODING IN.

AFTER THE INITIAL JUBILATION, AND AGONIZING WEIGHT FOR CONFIRMATION FROM THE RESCUE WORKERS.

MANY HERE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR DECADES.

HOPE WAS SOMETHING THEY DID AND LET THEMSELVES FEEL UNTIL NOW.

RESCUE WORKERS WITH CEREALS WHITE HELMETS BREAK THROUGH THE CONCRETE LOOKING FOR A WAY IN.

NO ONE IS CERTAIN WHERE THIS RED SECTION IS, OR IF IT EVEN EXISTS.

INSIDE THE PRISON, FAMILY MEMBERS ARE SEARCHING TOO.

YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE JUST COMING THROUGH ALL OF THE PAPERS AND RECORDS THEY CAN FIND, LOOKING FOR NAMES, SEEING IF MAYBE THEIR LOVED ONES ARE THERE.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SYRIANS WERE FORCIBLY DISAPPEARED IN SEDNAYA, LOST IN THE ABYSS OF A PRISON THAT WAS KNOWN AS A SLAUGHTERHOUSE .

INDUSTRIAL SCALE ARBITRARY DETENTION AND TORTURE, ALL TO KEEP ONE MAN IN POWER.

THEY CALL THIS THE WHITE AREA OF THE PRISON BECAUSE THEY SAY THE CONDITIONS HERE ARE MUCH BETTER THAN IN OTHER AREAS.

BUT, YOU CAN SEE, IT IS STILL MISERABLE.

IN THE CENTER OF THE PRISON, ANOTHER FRANTIC RUSH.

SOMEONE THINKS THEY HAVE FOUND A TUNNEL.

THEY DESPERATELY TRY TO GET A LOOK INSIDE.

OTHERS LOOK ON HELPLESS, NOT KNOWING IS AGONY.

ASSAD MAY BE GONE BUT THE LEGACY OF HIS CRUELTY.

>> CLARISSA WARD IN DAMASCUS.

NOW, KAJA KALLAS IS THE IN YOU FOREIGN-POLICY CHIEF, HAVING PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS PRIME MINISTER OF ESTONIA AND SHE IS ONE OF UKRAINE'S STAUNCHEST SUPPORTERS.

SHE JOINED THE PROGRAM LIVE FROM BRUSSELS FOR HER FIRST INTERNATIONAL TV INTERVIEW IN HER NEW ROLE.

HI, REPRESENTATIVE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE TALKED TO YOU A LOT AS PRIME MINISTER.

I WANT TO ASK YOU GIVEN YOU, THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SIMILAR SCENES TO THAT, MAYBE AN ESTONIAN AS IT BROKE FREE FROM SOVIET GULAG SYSTEMS.

DOES THAT RING ANY BELLS, WHAT PEOPLE IN SYRIA ARE LOOKING AT NOW?

>> OF COURSE.

WHEN YOU HAVE LIVED UNDER OPPRESSION FOR SUCH A LONG TIME, THE FREEDOM AND THE FEELING OF HOPE, LOOKING TO THE FUTURE, IS IMMENSE.

ALSO I THINK SYRIA FACES HOPEFUL BUT UNCERTAIN FUTURE.

PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR PUNISHMENT FOR THE CRIMES, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES WHO HAVE BEEN BEHIND THE PRISON CELLS.

IT IS A LOT OF CHAOS GOING ON.

I STILL WANT TO STRESS THAT SYRIA, THE SYRIAN PEOPLE ARE QUITE HAPPY WITH THE DEVELOPMENT.

>> HOW DO YOU THINK THE EU IS GOING TO RESPOND AND INTERACT WITH THIS NEW SYRIAN GOVERNMENT OR TRANSITIONAL BODY?

AS YOU KNOW, THE LEADER OF HTS, THE REBEL GROUP THAT DID LIBERATE SYRIA, HAS BEEN CALLED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY THE UNITED STATES, AND OTHERS.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO RESOLVE?

IS THE EU LOOKING TO HAVE, TO START RELATIONS AGAIN WITH SYRIA?

>> WELL, OVER THE WEEKEND WE HAVE BEEN IN CLOSE CONTACT WITH THE REGIONAL ACTORS.

I THINK FOR THE INTERNATIONAL ACTORS AS WELL AS THE REGIONAL ACTORS, WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS NOT IS STABILITY IN THE COUNTRY, THAT THERE IS NO REVENGE, NO RETALIATION, NO VIOLENCE AGAINST THE MINORITIES AND THERE ARE MANY WE KNOW ALSO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM HAS TO BE SO, RIGHT NOW, IT IS ALL VERY FRESH.

OF COURSE, THE NEW LEADERSHIP HAS TO BE JUDGED BY THEIR DEEDS.

THIS WILL COME IN DAYS OR WEEKS OR SO.

>> THEY HAVE SPOKEN THE RIGHT WORDS.

THEY SAY, THEY USE THE WORD SECT.

THEY SAY THAT ALL SECTS HAVE TO BE RESPECT IT.

YOU ARE RIGHT.

THE COMING DAYS AND WEEKS AND AND ALSO.

IN TERMS OF EUROPE, AS WE REMEMBER BACK IN 2015, THERE WERE MILLIONS OF SYRIAN REFUGEES AND OTHERS TRYING TO ESCAPE THE HORRORS THAT THEY FACED IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TOOK MANY IN, MOST NOTABLY GERMANY.

BUT NOW, MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE PAUSING ASYLUM APPLICATIONS FROM SYRIA.

GERMANY, AUSTRIA, THE UK, NORWAY, ITALY, SWITZERLAND, AND GREECE, APPARENTLY SPAIN IS TO CONTINUE.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY THIS WOULD HAPPEN, DO YOU AGREE WITH IT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE?

>> FIRST, IT IS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT WHEN THE REFUGEES FROM A WHIRRING REGION WANT TO GO BACK.

THAT IS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT SHOWING THAT THEY WANT TO GO BACK TO THEIR HOMES AND REBUILD THE COUNTRY.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BUILD A DEMOCRATIC SYRIA ALSO RETURN AND GIVE THEIR EFFORTS TO REALLY RECONSTRUCT THE COUNTRY AS IT IS BECAUSE THAT BRINGS STABILITY TO THE REGION.

WE ALREADY KNOW FROM THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES THAT THEY SEE THE REFUGEES RETURNING.

OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE, WITH THE LOCAL INTERLOCUTORS, THAT IT IS A SAFE PLACE TO RETURN AND IS ALSO IN OUR INTEREST THAT SYRIA DEVELOPS SO THAT THE INVESTMENTS FOR IN, PEOPLE HAVE JOBS, PEOPLE CAN LIVE THERE, BECAUSE FOR THE STABILITY OF THE REGION, SYRIA IS A VERY IMPORTANT ACTOR.

>> WHAT IF PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO GO BACK ?

IS THERE ANY SECURITY FOR THEM?

FOR INSTANCE, THE AUSTRIAN GOVERNMENT IS CONSIDERING DEPORTATIONS.

THE INTERIOR MINISTER SAYS "I HAVE INSTRUCTED THE MINISTRY TO PREPARE AN ORDERLY REPATRIATION AND DEPORTATION PROGRAM TO SYRIANS ."

HOW DOES THAT LOOK?

WE ARE HEARING ABOUT MASS DEPORTATIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THAT HE WILL UNDERGO IN TERMS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT IS THIS GOING TO LOOK LIKE, DO YOU THINK, IN AUSTRIA OR OTHER PARTS OF EUROPE?

>> WELL, SO FAR, IT HAS BEEN DIFFERENT MEMBER STATES REALLY SAYING WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO.

I THINK REFUGEE STATUS, TO LOOK INTO DETAILS, IS ALWAYS CONNECTED WITH THE WHIRRING REGION.

YOU CAN'T LIVE WHERE YOUR HOME IS BECAUSE THERE'S A WAR GOING ON AND YOU ARE A REFUGEE FROM RUNNING FOR YOUR LIFE FROM THAT REGION.

IF THE WAR ENDS AND IT IS POSSIBLE TO RETURN, OF COURSE, THE QUESTION IS, HOW TO DO IT BETTER BECAUSE, OF COURSE, ALSO EUROPE IS NOT MADE OF RUBBER THAT EVERYBODY JUST ARE FIT HERE.

I THINK IT IS VERY EARLY TO TELL RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T DISCUSSED THIS WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTERS IN EUROPE, WHAT IS OUR APPROACH, AND WE ALSO NEED TO DISCUSS THIS ON THE EUROPEAN LEVEL.

THE ASSIGNMENT RULES ARE THERE AND ASSIGNMENT RULES ARE A PLACE, THE MEMBER STATES ACT BY IT.

>> YOU MENTIONED BEFORE AND MINISTERS.

YOU ARE GOING TO BE MEETING THEM, I THINK, SOON.

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A MEETING WITH ALL OF THE FOREIGN MINISTERS.

THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF EU COUNTRIES WHO ARE TURNING VERY ANTI-IMMIGRATION.

WE KNOW, AND THERE IS A VERY, VERY RIGHT WING SENTIMENT THAT IS REALLY BIG.

IF THERE IS ONE BIG THING THAT UNITES A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE, IT IS AN ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT.

BUT, I WANT TO PUT THIS TO YOU, BECAUSE I SPOKE TO FORMER CHANCELLOR ENGLER MERKEL WHEN SHE WAS DOING HER BOOK TOUR IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT MIGRATION AND ABOUT EUROPE'S COMMITMENT TO IT AND THE DANGERS OF BATTENING DOWN THE HAD HINGES.

>> WE NEED TO SOLVE THIS ISSUE OF THE COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN.

OF COURSE, ILLEGAL MIGRATION NEEDS TO BE FOUGHT AGAINST.

THESE HUMAN TRAFFICKERS NEED TO BE FOUGHT AGAINST.

BUT, THE HARSHER WE ARE IN TRYING TO SHUT OURSELVES OFF AGAINST THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE FOR THIS ISSUE WOULD BECOME.

I AM FAIRLY CONVINCED OF THIS.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

IT IS TRUE THAT IN EUROPE, IN MANY COUNTRIES LIKE YOU POINTED OUT, WE HAVE A BIG ISSUE IN DOMESTIC POLITICS ABOUT MIGRATION.

AND, YOU CAN ARGUE WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG BUT IT IS THE REALITY.

THIS IS THE ISSUE.

ACTUALLY LOOKING BACK IN THE HISTORY, THIS IS ALSO WHAT OUR ADVERSARIES WANT TO SAY ABOUT EUROPE, THAT EUROPE IS UNDER A HUGE MIGRATION PRESSURE.

THEY ALSO CREATE THIS THEATER OF DIFFERENT WARS, IN AFRICA, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IN UKRAINE, SO THAT THERE IS A FLOW OF MIGRANTS, REFUGEES FROM THOSE REGIONS TOWARD EUROPE, SO THIS NARRATIVE MEETS THE REALITY.

AND, THAT IS, OF COURSE, THE PROBLEM BECOMES OUR ADVERSARIES ALSO KNOW THAT MIGRATION IS A VULNERABILITY.

THEY ARE WEAPONIZING IS ALSO AGAINST US.

SO, THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ALSO ABOUT EUROPE.

SO, WHAT DO WE DO WITH THIS?

LEGAL ROUTES FOR LEGAL MIGRATION AND THE RULES HAVE TO BE IN PLACE.

BUT, IT IS TRUE THAT WE NEED TO WORK WITH THE COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN THAT ALSO TAKE THEIR PEOPLE BACK.

WE NEED TO FIGHT AGAINST THE HUMAN SMUGGLERS THAT TREAT PEOPLE BADLY AND I MISS THEM SOMETHING THAT CAN'T BE DELIVERED.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY ASPECTS TO THIS.

>> YOU MENTIONED UKRAINE.

AND, IN FACT, ON YOUR FIRST DAY IN YOUR NEW RULE, YOU VISITED UKRAINE.

WHAT SHOULD UKRAINIAN REFUGEES, WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN LEGAL STATUS, WORK PERMITS, ETC.

SINCE THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF 2022, WHAT SHOULD THEY BE FEARING RIGHT NOW?

ARE THEY, WILL THEY STILL BE SAFE TO STAY?

>> WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO GO BACK TO THEIR HOMES.

PEOPLE ARE NOT FLEEING THEIR HOMES OR LEAVING THEIR HOMES BEHIND THE CAUSE THEY JUST BUT, THEY HAVE TO BECAUSE THERE'S A WAR GOING ON OR SOMETHING.

SO, IF WE ARE ABLE TO CREATED THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY CAN RETURN, BECAUSE IT IS A SAFE COUNTRY, THEN I THINK PEOPLE ARE ALSO HAPPY TO RETURN, TO REBUILD THEIR COUNTRY, THEIR OWN HOME, WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN USED TO LIVING.

SO, I THINK THIS IS ALSO THE UKRAINIANS ARE TELLING US ALL THE TIME WE WANT OUR CHILDREN BACK, WE WANT OUR PEOPLE BACK, BECAUSE THEY ALSO NEED THE PEOPLE TO REBUILD THE COUNTRY AFTER THE WAR IS OVER.

>> I KNOW BUT THEY HAVE SORT OF A RIGHT TO REMAIN, IS THAT GOING TO BE RENEWED?

THE WAR IS NOT OVER IN UKRAINE.

>> YES, THIS IS INTERIM SO IT IS RENEWED EVERY YEAR.

IN FEBRUARY, IT IS ONE YEAR AND THEN IT IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE MEMBER STATES, WHETHER IT IS RENEWED FOR THE NEXT YEAR.

I DON'T SEE THE WAR BEING OVER IN UKRAINE.

SO, IN FEBRUARY, WE WILL DISCUSS THIS AGAIN.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

YOU WERE ONE OF THE BIGGEST BACKERS OF THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE AND ONE OF THE CLEAREST I OF RUSSIA AND VLADIMIR PUTIN'S AIMS AND AMBITIONS, PERHAPS EVEN BEYOND UKRAINE.

SO, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE RUSSIANS, LIKE THE IRANIANS, ARE BENDING OVER BACKWARDS TO TRY TO PORTRAY WHAT HAPPENED IN SYRIA AS ANYTHING BUT A MAJOR BLOW FOR A MAJOR INVESTMENT THAT THEY MADE, BACKING ASSAD.

PRESIDENT TRUMP , OTHERS HAVE SAID ACTIVELY, THIS SHOWS THAT RUSSIA IS WEAK, THAT IT'S ADVENTURE IN UKRAINE AND THE TERRIBLE WARMTH HAS DRAINED IT OF ITS ABILITY TO FIGHT TWO WARS AT ONCE, AND WHO KNOWS WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

GAME PLAN THIS OUT FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS LOSS INTERIOR WILL MEAN FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN IN TERMS OF, I DON'T IN UKRAINE?

>> WELL, THIS IS DEFINITELY A BIG BLOW FOR RUSSIA.

IT SHOWS THAT IRAN AND RUSSIA HAVE BEEN WEAKENED AND DISTRACTED BY DIFFERENT WARS SO THEY CAN'T HELP THEIR OWN FRIENDS, ASSAD .

SO, I THINK WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT RUSSIA IS BEATABLE AND THEY ARE NOT THAT STRONG AS EVERYBODY PORTRAYS RUSSIA TO BE.

WE SHOULDN'T, I MEAN EUROPE AND THE WESTERN WORLD SHOULDN'T UNDERESTIMATE OUR OWN POWER AND OVERESTIMATE RUSSIA'S POWER.

WE CLEARLY SEE THE WEAKNESS ON THEIR SIDE.

WE NEED TO GET OUR ACT TOGETHER.

>> YOU MEANT RUSH IS BEATABLE.

HE SAID WINNABLE.

I ASSUME YOU MEAN BEATABLE.

AND, IF THAT IS THE CASE, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, HOW THEN?

DO YOU THINK THAT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE UNITED IN CONTINUING TO FUND UKRAINE?

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP IS IN OFFICE?

HE IS SORT OF MAYBE, MAYBE NOT IN TERMS OF PROBABLY NOT SUPPORTING UKRAINE AS MUCH, HE SAID IN A RECENT INTERVIEW, AS THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE.

BUT DIFFERENCE WILL THAT MAKE?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, AIDING UKRAINE IS NOT SOME KIND OF AID, IT IS SUPPORT TO UKRAINIANS DEFENSE .

THAT ALSO MEANS INVESTMENT INTO OUR OWN DEFENSE AND SECURITY.

THAT ALSO APPLIES TO THE UNITED STATES.

WE ARE IN THIS WORLD THAT IS VERY INTERCONNECTED.

WHAT HAPPENED IN EUROPE ALSO HAS CONSEQUENCES FOR THE UNITED STATES.

LOOKING INTO THE HISTORY, ISOLATIONISM HAS NEVER PLAYED OUT VERY WELL ALSO FOR THE UNITED STATES .

IT IS ALSO IN THEIR INTEREST, IF THEY ARE LOOKING TOWARD CHINA, TO BE VERY STRONG ON RUSSIA.

WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO FOR THIS?

WE HAVE TO KEEP UNITY, WE HAVE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE WITH A MILITARY AS WELL AS THE FINANCIAL AID SO THAT THEY ARE THIS WAR.

THEN, ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE ALSO HAVE TO INCREASE OUR PRESSURE BY SANCTIONS.

WE HAVE TO INCREASE THE PRESSURE ON THE POLITICAL ISOLATION OF RUSSIA, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, NOT EASY.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, WE KNOW THAT IT IS ALSO NOT EASY TO KEEP UP THE WAR MACHINE FOR RUSSIA.

SO, IF WE CONCENTRATE OUR EFFORTS, THEN WE ARE ABLE TO BRING THIS WAR TO AN END SO THAT THE PIECE IS ALSO SUSTAINABLE AND LASTS.

>> YOU HAVE SENT A FEW MESSAGES, AND I GUESS YOU WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH PART OF THE FALLOUT IF TRUMP DOES MAKE GOOD ON HIS PLEDGE TO IMPOSE TARIFFS ON EUROPE, AND EVERYBODY EXPECTS EVEN ANGELA MERKEL TOLD ME SHE IS SHORT OF THE IDEA OF EUROPE HAVING TO PAY MORE INTO THEIR MENTAL COMMITMENT, IN OTHER WORDS, MORE GDP INTO THEIR DEFENSE, SHE IS SURE THAT IS GOING TO COME UP AGAIN.

ALREADY, I DON'T KNOW, I THINK IT MAY BE YOUR SUCCESSOR IN ESTONIA SAID WE SHOULD START THE BAR AT 2.5%.

DO YOU THINK DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE?

YOU KNOW THIS, YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS AS EUROPEANS OVER THE LAST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ARE YOU PREPARED TO DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES NOW?

>> WELL, WHAT TRUMP HAS SAID IS THAT YOU EUROPEANS HAVE TO INVEST MORE IN DEFENSE.

AND, I THINK NOW EVERYBODY ALSO GETS THIS.

IT IS TRUE THAT WE NEED TO BOOST OUR DEFENSE EXPENDITURE AND MANY COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT.

I THINK IN GENERAL, EUROPE HAS STEPPED UP IN THE DEFENSE SPENDING.

IS IT ENOUGH?

WELL, I DON'T THINK IT IS ENOUGH.

WE ALL NEED TO DO MORE.

THERE, I MEAN, EVERYBODY AGREES WITH THE MESSAGES FROM THE PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP THAT EUROPE NEEDS TO DO MORE FOR THEIR DEFENSE.

I THINK PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN THIS MESSAGE AND ARE ACTING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS.

>> THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO ASK.

WE HOPE TO HAVE YOU BACK ANOTHER TIME.

HIGH REPRESENTATIVE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE EU, KAJA KALLAS, FORMER ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, DONALD TRUMP'S A SECOND TERM WILL START IN A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD THE ONE THAT HE LEFT.

SOME THINGS DON'T CHANGE, AS WE JUST WERE TALKING ABOUT.

HE IS DOUBLING DOWN ON A TOUR MEMBERS AGAIN, DEMANDING THEY "PAY THEIR BILLS."

PRODUCTIVITY, HE SAYS THE U.S. SHOULD STAY OUT OF SYRIA AND LET THE CURRENT SITUATION PLAY OUT.

LET'S GO TO ELBRIDGE COLBY, WHO SERVED IN THE PENTAGON DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM AND WHOSE NAME HAS BEEN FLOATED FOR A POSSIBLE ROLE IN THE SECOND ADMINISTRATION.

WELCOME BACK, ALBERT COLD THE ELBRIDGE COLBY TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF KAJA KALLAS YOU BUT SHE SAID THAT YES, WE HAVE TO DO MORE ON OUR DEFENSE.

THE TERRORISTS ISSUE.

DOES THAT SUGGEST THAT THE TRUMP EUROPE RELATIONSHIP WOULD BE SMOOTHER FROM THE GET-GO, DO YOU THINK?

IN A 2.0?

>> I DID HEAR IT.

I DON'T SPEAK FOR RESIDENT EFFECT TRUMP OR INCOMING ADMINISTRATION BUT THERE ARE SOME ENCOURAGING THINGS THE HIGH REPRESENTATIVE SAID.

THE LAST PART HAS REMAINED RHETORICAL.

SHE KIND OF GESTURED AT THAT BUT THE RESULTS ARE FAR MORE MEAGER THAN I THINK AMERICANS HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPECT AND FRANKLY EUROPEANS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME COUNTRIES LIKE POLAND.

I NOTED THE HIGH REPRESENTATIVE'S COMMENTS ABOUT PUNITIVE ISOLATIONISM.

LET ME PUT THIS TO OUR EUROPEAN FRIENDS.

I SPEAK THE PRESIDENT-ELECT BUT THIS PRESENTS THE POINTS THAT YOU SEE IN AMERICA.

WE NEED REAL ACTION BY EUROPEANS.

EUROPEANS KNOW WHAT THEY NEED TO DO, THEY NEED TO NOT JUST SPEND MORE ON DEFENSE BUT DELIVER MORE COMBAT CAPABILITY FOR NATO.

THAT IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CLEARLY SAID AND TAKE A MUCH GREATER LEAD, INCLUDING IN MILITARY AID FOR UKRAINE.

AS THE HYBRID TENTATIVE ACKNOWLEDGED THERE, THAT HAS NOT REALLY HAPPENED.

GERMANY, FOR INSTANCE, HAS CUT BELOW THE LEVEL THAT WE GOVERNMENT WAS ASKING FOR.

IT CUT AID TO UKRAINE.

FRANCE HAS CUT AID TO UKRAINE.

THE UK IS IN A PERILOUS SITUATION.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT ALL OF THE STUFF UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME BUT THE RIGHT COURSE FOR EUROPEANS TO STEP UP.

MAYBE MOVE AWAY FROM SOME OF THESE GREEN INITIATIVES, MOVE AWAY FROM SOME OF THIS OVER REGULATION ON INDUSTRY HERE TO BUILD BACK UP ITS OWN DEFENSE INDUSTRY CAPABILITY, MOVE BACK TOWARD CONSTRUCTION.

THOSE ARE DECISIONS FOR EUROPE.

LIBERALIZE THE ABILITY OF EUROPE TO ISSUE BONDS FOR GREATER DEFENSE SPENDING.

TO ME, THE THINGS EUROPE SHOULD PUT ON THE TABLE.

RIGHT NOW, WE SEE A LOT OF RHETORIC AND RELATIVELY LITTLE ACTION.

EUROPE NOW, WOULD YOU?

>> I THINK, LOOK I DON'T SPEAK FOR ANYBODY ELSE BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SPENDING WELL OVER 3.5% OF GDP FOR A LONG TIME AND THE EUROPEANS HAVE HAD A REALLY GOOD RIDE, CERTAINLY SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR INTO EVEN DURING THE COLD WAR AS DISPROPORTIONATE.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS LECTURING, I THINK THIS IS, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP PUTS IT, IT IS A DOSE OF COMMON SENSE.

YOU'RE SETTING, I TALKED EUROPEANS ALL THE TIME, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY NEED TO DO.

HOW DOES IT MAKE SENSE FOR GERMANS TO SPEND BETWEEN 1% AND 2% OF GDP FOR DEFENSE FOR DECADES AND AMERICANS TO SPEND A LOT MORE?

HOW DOES IT MAKE SENSE FOR THE COUNTRY THAT THE CURRENT SECRETARY GENERAL OF NATO RAN FOR A VERY WEALTHY COUNTRY TO SPEND WITH A LOAD 2%, THIS IS NOT EQUITABLE AND IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR EUROPE AND OUR MILITARY.

BIDEN IS LEAVING AND OVERSTRETCHED, OUR WEAPONS STOCKPILES AND FOR DEPLETED AND WE HAVE A BIGGER CHALLENGE IN CHINA, NOT TO MENTION OUR OWN HOMELAND.

>> ON THAT POINT OF CHINA, AND AS YOU KNOW, 22 MEMBERS OF NATO ARE AT 2% AND THEY FULLY INTEND HAVE TO GO FURTHER UP.

ON THE ISSUE OF WHAT SHE SAID AND OTHERS HAVE SAID IT TOO, ON AN ISSUE THAT REALLY DOES AFFECT PRESIDENT TRUMP INTO THE AMERICANS, THAT IS CHINA.

YOU ARE TRYING TO KEEP CHINA AT BAY.

AND, THERE IS A LEGITIMATE CASE TO BE MADE THAT IF CHINA SEES UKRAINE BEING ALLOWED TO GO THE WAY OF RUSSIA, IT WILL TAKE A LESSON, IF AMERICA DOESN'T STAND UP FOR UKRAINE.

WILL THE PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL RULES OF THE ROAD?

>> LET ME ADDRESS ONE THING.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS RIGHTLY SAID , AND THE SECRETARY GENERAL HAVE INDICATED THE REAL LEVEL FOR NATO SPENDING IS 3%.

THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE IN GERMANY HAS SUGGESTED GERMANY MIGHT NEED TO GO TO 3.5% OR ABOVE TO RESTORE THE MANY YEARS OF NEGLECT THAT COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY HAVE GONE THROUGH.

THERE'S A LOT OF ACCOUNTING LET'S GET REAL.

WE NEED TO SEE RESULTS AND NOT JUST ACCOUNTING.

ON THE ISSUE OF CHINA, CANDIDLY, I THINK THAT IS A TRIPLE BANK SHOT ARGUMENT.

LET'S ASK, THE AMERICAN NAVY HAS FEWER SHIPS NOW THEN THE CHINESE NAVY.

THE CHINESE ARE, EVEN AS WE SPEAK, MAKING THE LARGEST EXERCISES AROUND TAIWAN SINCE 1996.

THERE'S NO EUROPEAN MILITARY CAPABILITY THAT CAN MATTER IN THE FIRST ISLAND CHAIN.

THIS IS NOT 1937.

AMERICAN FORCES ARE OVERSTRETCHED, INCLUDING BECAUSE OF THE STOUT SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS GIVEN TO UKRAINE, AND ORDINARY LEVELS OF MILITARY SUPPORT.

WE NEED TO MAKE TOUGH CHOICES AND I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE CLEAR THAT HE DOESN'T WANT A WAR REALLY ANYWHERE AND LET IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT BUT WE NEED A PIECE STRENGTH APPROACH, ESPECIALLY WITH CHINA.

THAT IS GOING TO REQUIRE AS VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT J.D.

VANCE IS HAS POINTED OUT, USING SKINNED MILITARY POWER.

WE HAVE ALLIES, POLAND IS IN THE ELECTION, SOUTH KOREA,, AND OF COURSE, ISRAEL.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SYRIA.

ELECT DONALD TRUMP SAID , AS EVERYTHING WAS GOING DOWN OVER THE WEEKEND HE SAID "SYRIA IS A MESS, IT IS NOT OUR FRIEND, AND OF THE UNITED STATES SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

THIS IS NOT OUR FIGHT, LET IT PLAY OUT, DO NOT GET INVOLVED."

OKAY, FINE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT ACTUALLY MEANS WHEN WE PEELED THAT APART?

FOR INSTANCE, THE SEVERAL HUNDRED U.S.

FORCES THAT ARE BASED THERE PURELY TO FIGHT AND TO MAKE SURE THAT ISIS DOESN'T RAISE ITS HEAD AGAIN.

AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN ORDERED B-52S, FIGHTER JETS, TO BOMBARD ISIS POSITIONS AS THE ASSAD REGIME WAS CRUMBLING.

LET'S JUST TAKE THAT LITTLE BIT.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT THAT A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL DO ABOUT THE SMALL PRESENCE OF AMERICAN TROOPS IN SYRIA RIGHT NOW?

>> FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ABOUT THE NEED TO AVOID GETTING ENMESHED IN AND THE CRACK IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I THINK MIKE WALTZ PUT IT WELL "THIS IS WHAT PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED ON, NOT TO GET US INTO ANOTHER MIDDLE EAST WAR."

IT SOUNDS COMMONSENSE BUT COMMON SENSE HAS BEEN EXCEPTIONALLY UNCOMMON OVER THE LAST GENERATION AND WE'VE MANAGED TO FRITTER AWAY OUR ENORMOUS MILITARY ADVANTAGES AND THE SUPPORT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE SERVED IN UNIFORM, AS PETE HEGSETH HAS SPOKEN FOR THEM IN A VERY ELOQUENT WAY AS WELL ESTATE EVENTS AND OTHERS, ERODED THE WILLINGNESS OF THE AMERICAN KEEP 40 SCHEDULE CONFLICTS.

I THINK BASICALLY SAYING WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET INVOLVED HERE IS A REALLY IMPORTANT STARTING POINT.

THAT IS THE BASELINE.

I LIKE TO POINT OUT, DURING THE COLD WAR, SYRIA WAS BASICALLY ALWAYS IN THE SOVIET SPHERE AND TO GET WE WON THE COLD WAR.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS STRATEGICALLY VITAL FOR US AND WE HAVE TO HUSBAND OUR RESOURCES.

ON THE ISSUE OF WHAT U.S.

FORCES IN SYRIA IS GOING TO HAPPEN, I CERTAINLY SUPPORTED THE PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN HE ATTEMPTED TO PULL THEM OUT LAST I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE.

THAT IS HIS DECISION.

I THINK THERE IS A IS OUR ELEMENT TO OUR POSTURE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE WE ARE BOMBING MULTIPLE GROUPS AND POSSIBLY SUPPORTING, GOING TO PORTING, MULTIPLE GROUPS OF VARYING SIGNS.

I THINK THE BETTER COURSE HERE IS TO, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID, TO STAY OUT OF IT DIRECTLY, TO EMPOWER AND BACK OUR ALLIES LIKE ISRAEL THAT ARE TAKING MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS, AND SOME KIND OF EQUILIBRIUM WILL HOPEFULLY ARISE AND THEN, OF COURSE, KEEPING A WEATHER EYE ON THE POSSIBILITY FOR TRANSNATIONAL JIHADIST TO EMERGE.

THAT IS A CORE OF AMERICAN INTEREST COMING OUT OF THAT AREA.

>> YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT SUCCESSIVE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION'S HEALTH BUT WANTED TO GET INVOLVED IN SYRIA, NEITHER OBAMA, AS YOU SAID, TRUMP.

I AM INTERESTED IN WHY YOU SUPPORTED TRUMP'S DESIRE TO PULL THOSE FORCES OUT THEN.

OF COURSE, THEY DID KEEP A NUMBER OF FORCES.

THE OBAMA EXAMPLE IN 2011 OR WHATEVER YEAR IT WAS WAS TO PULL ALL THE FORCES OUT OF IRAQ AND A FEW YEARS LATER, ISIS WAS CONTROLLING MASSIVE SWATHS OF SYRIA, IRAQ, ETC., AND THEN THE U.S. HAD TO COME AND SPEND YEARS BOMBING THEM BACK INTO IRRELEVANCE.

AREN'T YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, ABOUT PULLING OUT AND THEN HAVING TO COME BACK AND SPEND YEARS BOMBING THESE TARGETS AND BEING CONCERNED ABOUT THE PROLIFERATION OF ISIS AGAIN OR A SIMILAR GROUP?

>> OF COURSE, AM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT ISIS.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION MADE HUGE STRIDES IN SUPPRESSING ISIS TO A SHADOW OF ITS FORMER SELF.

WANT TO GET AHEAD OF THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION-MAKING THE CURRENT SITUATION.

I THINK THE IDEA OF KEEPING PERPETUAL LILY PADS THAT OFTEN BECOME SORT OF HOSTAGES TO IRAN OR ITS PROXIES, SOME OF OUR SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN HAVE BEEN KILLED AND WOUNDED IN THE LAST KIND OF YEAR OR SO BECAUSE THEY ARE JUST SITTING THERE WITHOUT A REAL OVERRIDING PURPOSE.

I THINK THERE IS CERTAINLY A STRONG ARGUMENT FOR CONSOLIDATING OUR POSITION.

OVERALL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THE POINT IS THAT WE NEED TO STRATEGIC.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN OBAMA OR GEORGE W. BUSH OR JOE BIDEN.

I THINK, CANDIDLY, THESE PEOPLE WERE ESSENTIALLY HOSTAGE.

JOE BIDEN SAID HIS FAVORITE SHOW, WITH ALL RESPECT, WAS "MORNING JOE" AND HE WOULD READ TOM FRIEDMAN EVERYDAY.

THESE WERE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALREADY DECIDED I'M RUNNING AGAINST THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM HE HAS TAKEN ALL THE FLAK THEY CAN THROW AT HIM AND HE HAS BEEN ELECTED ON AN AGENDA TO PUT AMERICANS FIRST AND MAKE CHANGES THAT ARE UNCOMFORTABLE TO BE ESTABLISHED WAY OF DOING THINGS.

THE THING I ALWAYS STRESS IS HOW SUCCESSFUL HAS THE ESTABLISHED WAY OF DOING THINGS BEEN OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS?

I WOULD SAY IT HAS BEEN AN UTTER FAILURE.

WE NEED A MUCH MORE COMMON SENSE AMERICA FIRST APPROACH THAT RATIONALIZES, IN A SENSE, LIKE A BUSINESS THAT RATIONALIZES OUR COMMITMENTS WITH WHAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE.

AND, BY THE WAY, THAT WE CAN WORK WITH A LOT OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO DO MORE.

THAT GETS BACK TO THE HIGH REPRESENTATIVES COMMENTS.

LOOK, I THINK IT IS ALL FINE AND DANDY TO HAVE HIGHFALUTIN LANGUAGE.

WE NEED TO SEE REAL COMIC ABILITY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT A COUNTRY ISRAEL, WHEN YOU LOOK AT A COUNTRY LIKE INDIA, SOUTH KOREA, THESE ARE COUNTRIES THAT TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN SECURITY, THAT FIELD SERIES FORCES.

THE GERMANS JUST A FEW YEARS AGO WERE TRAINING WITH BROOMSTICKS.

WHEN I HEAR THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF THAT COUNTRY EVEN AS LECTURES, I TAKE IT SERIOUSLY THEN WHEN I HEAR FROM THE EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER FROM INDIA OR THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL, FOR INSTANCE.

>> LOOK, ELBRIDGE A. COLBY, YOU KNOW GERMANY HAS HAD A HISTORIC DISASTER OF MONEY MENTAL THE PORTIONS THAT FORBID IT FROM DOING TOO MUCH AND PROJECTING ITS MILITARY POWER.

>> THEY HAD 12 ACTIVE DIVISIONS AND THREE IN READY RESERVE IN 1988 WHEN THEY WERE WEST GERMANY.

MUCH OF THAT MILITARY WAS RECONSTITUTED WITH ELEMENTS.

WHEN THEY WERE THREATENED, THEY HAD A VERY AMENABLE MILITARY.

IT IS WELL WITHIN THEIR CAPABILITY, IT IS A MATTER OF WILLPOWER.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT THE UNCONVENTIONAL AND THE CONVENTIONAL.

YOU JUST MENTIONED SOME OF THE CABINET APPOINTEES , NOMINEES, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL THEM RIGHT NOW.

ONE OF THEM, PETE HEGSETH.

I'M ASKING BECAUSE YOU WERE A PENTAGON OFFICIAL, HE IS BEING ELIMINATED, OR AT LEAST APPOINTED BY RESIDENT TRUMP TO LEAD THE DEFENSE MINISTRY.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU SUPPORT THAT.

YOU DO SUPPORT IT, OR WHY PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP WOULD SUPPORT THAT.

I DO UNDERSTAND THAT HIS PEOPLE, HIS MAGGART BASE WANTS, THEY LOVE HIS APPOINTMENT.

THEY SAY IT IS TURNED ON THE HOUSE, COMPLETELY FREE, WHATEVER THEY SEE THAT THEY WANT HIM TO DO TO THE SYSTEM AND THE DEEP STATE AND ALL OF THAT.

THE PENTAGON IS A MASSIVE, IMPORTANT, WORLD-CLASS LEADING INSTITUTION.

AND THE CHARACTERISTICS AND PERSONAL CHARACTER AND THE QUALIFICATIONS DO NOT SEEM TO BE THERE.

WHY WENT THE PRESIDENT POLITICAL CAPITAL, WHY WOULD YOU SUPPORT SOMEBODY WHO IS CREDIBLY ACCUSED OF SEXUAL IMPROPRIETY, OF DRUG AND ALCOHOL ADDICTION, WHY?

>> I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT, WHICH IS WHY, I DON'T THINK HE HAS BEEN CREDIBLY ACCUSED OF THAT.

HE HAS REJECTED AND A LOT OF THESE ARE FROM ANONYMOUS SOURCES.

YOU SHOULD INVITE HIM ON.

>> I WOULD LOVE TO PITCH >> IS A VERY ARTICULATE AND COMPELLING.

>> MAYBE YOU CAN HELP ME.

I AM NOT SURE.

I WOULD LOVE TO.

>> I THINK HE IS A FANTASTIC PICK.

WHY?

FIRST AND FOREMOST, HE HAS A GREAT RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT AND IS COMMITTED TO PUTTING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S AMERICA FIRST AGENDA INTO ACTION, WHICH IS SO KEY.

THIS IS THE THING ABOUT THESE CABINET PICKS, THEY ARE PUTTING THE AGENDA THAT THE PRESIDENT TRUMP RAN ON INTO EFFECT.

SECONDLY, PETE HEGSETH IS A NATIONAL STORY.

HE SPEAKS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE VETERAN COMMUNITY IN A VERY COMPELLING AND ARTICULATE AWAY.

HE UNDERSTANDS.

HE HAS LED VETERANS ORGANIZATIONS.

ON HIS SHOW, HE IS TALKING VETERANS .

HE FRONTS THEM, HE PLATFORMS THEM.

HE UNDERSTANDS THE FIGHTING MEN AND WOMEN.

HIS SUBSTANTIVE FOCUS IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT ONE.

HE WAS JUST SETTING ON X TODAY, WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS OF DOXING ON LETHALITY, READINESS, MODERNIZATION.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE GESTURING AT I DON'T THINK OF HAD A GOOD RESULT.

LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO FILLED THE PELLET OF SECRETARY OF DEFENSE OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS AND ANY OF THEM HONORABLE PEOPLE, EXPERIENCED PEOPLE BUT HERE WE ARE.

THE PENTAGON, WE ARE IN REALLY BAD SHAPE.

THAT IS ACKNOWLEDGED EVEN BY SORT OF "ESTABLISHMENT PEOPLE."

I THINK PETE HEGSETH WOULD BE AN EXCELLENT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

HE IS A CHANGE AGENT.

HE IS ALIGNED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP HE'S WILLING TO TAKE ON THE ASSESSMENT.

HE'S GOING TO BE SHREDDED BY TONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEP AND EXPERT ON THE ISSUES.

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH MORE TIME I HAVE.

I ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS.

I WILL COME BACK TO YOU.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD LIKES TO PORTRAY ITSELF AS A VICTIM THAT CAN NEVER GET ANYTHING RIGHT.

YOU'VE JUST BEEN TO ME THAT -- >> AMERICA IS ALWAYS REFORMING ITSELF.

WE ARE SAYING WE SELF CRITICIZE AND THEN WE ARE GOING TO ADDRESS OUR PROBLEMS AND WE ARE GOING TO COME BACK AHEAD.

THAT, TO ME, IS THE POWER OF DEMOCRACY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DEMONSTRATING.

>> WE WILL FOLLOW UP WITH YOU.

ELBRIDGE A. COLBY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON OUR PROGRAM AGAIN.

>>> NOW, MORE THAN 75 NOBEL LAUREATES WRITING AN OPEN LETTER URGING TRUMP TO DITCH RFK JR. AS HIS CHOICE FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY.

AS TRUMP'S PICK GET MORE PUSHBACK, HIS TEAM HAVE SIGNALED THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO GO IT ALONE, BYPASSING THE TRADITIONAL OFFICIAL VETTING PROCESS.

NOW, IN CONVERSATION WITH HARI SREENIVASAN, FORMER REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC COUNCILS TO THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE EXPLAIN WHY THE SENATE CONFIRMATION PROCESS AND FBI BACKGROUND CHECKS ARE SO CRUCIAL.

>> KAJA KALLAS , GREG, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU BOTH HAVE WORKED FOR YOUR THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH.

TO HELP TO BACKGROUND CHECKS ON IMPORTANT NOMINEES, RIGHT, AND HE BOTH RECENTLY WROTE AN OP-ED IN THE NEW YORK TIMES TITLED "FBI CHECKS ON TRUMP NOBODY'S ARE A MUST.

GREG, EXPLAIN WHY THESE CHECKS ARE SO CRITICAL.

>> EVERYBODY IS FAMILIAR WITH THE PUBLIC PART OF THE CONFIRMATION PROCESS.

THE HEARINGS AND ALL OF THE POLITICS AROUND IT.

BUT, THE PART THAT WE WROTE ABOUT WHAT WE REALLY FOCUSED ON INLET OP-ED IS THIS BACKGROUND INVESTIGATION, WHICH IS A PART OF THE CONFIRMATION PROCESS THAT HAPPENS BEHIND THE SCENES.

IT IS HANDLED CONFIDENTIALLY AND GREATLY.

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SENATE EXAMINING THE CHARACTER INTO THE FITNESS OF NOMINEES AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WHO CAN BE TRUSTED WITH THE IMMENSE POWER THAT SOME OF THESE OFFICES OFFER THEIR INCUMBENTS.

ONE OF THE QUESTIONS YOU ARE SENATE SHOULD BE ASKING NOW OF NOMINEES IS NOT JUST WHETHER THEY ARE THE FIT WITH THE POLITICS BUT WHETHER THEY ARE THE TYPE OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO WILL BE FAITHFUL TO THE OATH OF OFFICE, BUT THE LAW OF THE CONSTITUTION ABOVE THEIR OWN WOMEN'S WITH THE WHIMS OF ANY POLITICAL LEADER.

>> SO, NOAH BOOKBINDER, LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK .

PUT ME IN THE HOT SPOT HERE.

LET'S SAY I AM UP FOR ONE OF THESE IMPORTANT JOBS.

WHAT ARE YOU AND GREG AND THE STAFF AND THE COMMITTEE DOING TO FIND OUT WHATEVER YOU CAN ABOUT ME OR WHETHER I AM QUALIFIED FOR THE JOB?

>> THE FIRST THING IS ACTUALLY THERE IS A PROCESS THE FBI DOES.

THINK OF DONE THIS FOR DECADES.

AND, THEY TALK TO THE NOMINEE, THEY TALK TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED WITH THAT NOMINEE AT EVERY STAGE IN THEIR LIVES, WHO HAVE KNOWN THEM AT DIFFERENT STAGES.

THEY LOOK INTO, BACKGROUND CHECKS.

THEY LOOK AT EDUCATIONAL THEY REALLY MAKE SURE THAT THEY GET A SENSE OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE AND HAVE BEEN AT EVERY STAGE.

THEY WRITE UP OFTEN A COUPLE HUNDRED PAGES.

THAT COMES TO THE COMMITTEE.

AND USUALLY GREGG NUNZIATA AND I WHEN WE DID IT TOGETHER WOULD REVIEW ALL OF THAT INFORMATION AND HONESTLY USUALLY IT ENDS THERE BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ALL THAT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE REST OF US HAVE IT YOU JUST NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AND MAKE SURE IT ALL LOOKS OKAY.

SOMETIMES THERE ARE QUESTIONS.

THERE IS SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED, THERE IS INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.

AND SO WAS THAT COUNSEL ON THE COMMITTEE WILL GET TOGETHER AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THE FBI HAS TO GO BACK AND TALK TO MORE PEOPLE, DO SOME MORE DIGGING OR WHETHER WE CAN DO , WE BEING THE COUNSEL ON THE COMMITTEE, CAN DO OUR OWN RESEARCH.

CALL PEOPLE UP, TRY TO GET MORE COMPLETE INFORMATION.

A KEY THING HERE IS THAT THE FBI IS NOT MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT WHETHER SOMEBODY SHOULD BE CONFIRMED.

THE FBI AND COMMITTEE STAFF AND THE SENATORS ON COMMITTEE ARE MAKING SURE THEY HAVE THE INFORMATION SO THAT SENATORS CAN VOTE WITH A COMPLETE PICTURE OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE.

>> SO, GREGG NUNZIATA, YOU'VE WORKED ON BEHALF OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THIS COMMITTEE IN THAT ROLE.

WHY ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW AS THIS TRANSITION COMES TO BEAR?

>> THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF RHETORIC FROM THE PRESIDENT- ELECT AND SOME OF HIS ALLIES IN THE SENATE THAT MAY BE THE FBI PROCESS IS NOT NECESSARY AND THAT IT SHOULD BE SIDESTEPPED.

YOU SEE THESE NOMINATIONS, THESE NAMES THEY FLOATED WITHOUT EVEN PRELIMINARY DILIGENCE AS FAR AS I CAN TELL ON THE PART OF THE PRESIDENTS TEAM.

THESE ARE VERY IMPORTANT JOBS AND THERE IS SOME CONCERN THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT AND SOME REPUBLICAN SENATORS, I SHOULD SAY MOST REPUBLICAN SENATORS PROCESS IS WHAT SHOULD BE FOLLOWED HERE.

THERE HAS BEEN THIS TALK ABOUT SIDESTEPPING THE FBI AND THE BACKGROUND INVESTIGATION AND ALSO MUSING FROM THE PRESIDENT ABOUT USING THINGS LIKE THE RECESS APPOINTMENT POWER TO SIDESTEP CONFIRMATION ENTIRELY.

THE CONFIRMATION PROCESS IS A CRITICAL CHECK AND BALANCE IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM AND IT SHOULD NOT BE ANALYZED OR PUSHED ASIDE LATELY IT IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT PROCESS TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE WHO RECEIVE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENTS ARE FIT TO CARRY OUT THE OFFICES TO WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN NOMINATED.

>> NOAH BOOKBINDER, LET'S TAKE EACH ONE OF THOSE ONE AT A TIME HERE.

ON THE ONE HAND , FIRST, IS THE FBI EXCLUSIVELY QUALIFIED?

OR, WHY SHOULD THEY BE TRUSTED WITH THE PROCESS VERSUS, SAY, PRIVATE COMPANIES THAT MAY BE ABLE TO DO SIMILAR OR AS DEEP A BACKGROUND CHECK, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE OF KEY DIFFERENCES.

PROCESS THAT HAS WORKED WELL FOR DECADES, THAT THE SENATE KNOWS HOW TO WORK WITH.

GREGG AND I WORKED ON CAPITOL HILL AT A TIME OF DEEP PARTISAN DIVISION, WHERE THERE WAS LOTS OF FIGHTING ABOUT WHAT KINDS OF NOMINEES WERE QUALIFIED, HOW YOU SHOULD VOTE, WHAT THE POLICY PREFERENCES WERE.

THERE WAS NOT FIGHTING IN THIS BACKGROUND REVIEW PROCESS.

WE DID IT IN A COOPERATIVE WAY AND WE GOT THE SENATORS THE INFORMATION WE NEEDED.

THERE IS A LOT OF HISTORY AND PRESIDENT THAT SAYS THIS PROCESS WORKS.

THAT IS THE FIRST PART.

THE SECOND PART IS THAT WITH A PRIVATE COMPANY WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE CONSISTENT, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE THOROUGH , THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE OBJECTIVE, PARTICULARLY IF THEY ARE HIRED BY THE PRESIDENTS TEAM RATHER THAN BEING PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

WITH THE FBI, NOT THAT THE FBI IS PERFECT IN EVERY WAY BUT, WITH THIS PROCESS, YOU KNOW EXPERIENCED PEOPLE GETTING AN OBJECTIVE LOOK, GETTING SENATORS WHAT THEY NEED TO SELL THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED SO THAT THEY CAN DECIDE ABOUT PEOPLE TAKING IMPORTANT POSITIONS THAT MATTER A LOT TO AMERICANS.

WITH A PRIVATE COMPANY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET.

WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE A LOT OF REASON TO TRUST THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT BRINGS IN IS GOING TO GIVE THE TYPE OF SEARCHING ANALYSIS AND INVESTIGATION THAT IS NEEDED.

>> RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN EXAMPLES OF SOME OF THE NOMINEES THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS PUT FORWARD.

MATT GAETZ, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE ROLE OF ATTORNEY GENERAL.

PETE HEGSETH FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY.

BOTH OF THESE MEN HAVE COME UNDER PUBLIC SCRUTINY FOR ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT IN THE PAST.

AND, I WONDER , WOULD AN FBI BACKGROUND CHECK, IF THAT HAD BEEN PERFORMED IN THE FIRST PLACE, WHAT IS THE BENEFIT THERE?

>> SO, I THINK A KEY THING ABOUT THIS PROCESS IS THAT IT IS A CONFIDENTIAL PROCESS AND IT CAN HAPPEN BEFORE ANYTHING IS ANNOUNCED PUBLICLY.

SO, YOU CAN ENVISION A SITUATION WHERE THE FBI COULD DO IT'S CHECK AND SOME OF THESE NOMINEES WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ANNOUNCED AND IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO BE IN THE NEWSPAPER AND YOU WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO HAVE HAD THIS SORT OF PUBLIC BACK AND FORTH ABOUT ARE THESE NOMINEES SIT, THE, TUESDAY, ARE THEY GOING TO GO?

THE PRESIDENTS TEAM HAS THE INFORMATION IN ADVANCE AND CAN MAKE A QUIET DECISION.

THAT IS ONE BENEFIT.

THE OTHER ONE IS THAT I THINK OF A PRESS IS DOING A GREAT JOB IN DIGGING INTO SOME OF THESE FOLKS.

BUT, THERE ARE GOING TO BE ALL SORTS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER REPORTING FROM THIS OUTLET GETS THE FULL PICTURE INTO REPORTING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

WITH THE FBI, AGAIN, NOT THAT THE WAY THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE PAST IS ALWAYS A PERFECT WAY TO GO BUT THERE IS REAL PRECEDENT FOR THE FBI DOING A THOROUGH AND OBJECTIVE LOOK.

WHEN GREGG AND I DID THIS, IF WE THOUGHT THERE WERE GAPS, WE EITHER ASKED THEM TO GO BACK AND DO MORE RESEARCH OR WE DID IT OURSELVES.

SO, THERE WAS A WAY FOR INFORMATION TO COME IN THAT SENATORS WOULD TRUST TO BE AS CLOSE TO THE FULL PICTURE AS YOU COULD GET.

>> CRAIG, THE PRESIDENT, FOR YEARS NOW, HAS ALREADY HAD PROBLEMS WITH HOW HE FEELS PERSECUTED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

THE INVESTIGATIONS LAUNCHED INTO HIM AND HIS BUSINESS DEALINGS OVER TIME.

SO, THERE IS KIND OF A GENERAL PICTURE OF DISTRUST.

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

>> AGAIN, I THINK I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND EVERYBODY THAT THIS IS NOT AN FBI CHECK IN THE MAKING A DECISION.

THE FBI IS GATHERING INFORMATION FOR THE SENATE TO REVIEW AND IT IS DONE DISCREETLY, CONFIDENTIALLY.

IT IS NOT PUBLIC AND THIS HAS BEEN A SYSTEM THAT HAS WORKED FOR AT LEAST 40 OR 50 YEARS.

SO, I UNDERSTAND THAT OUR PRESIDENT HAS OBJECTIONS TO HOW THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT AND FEDERAL INVESTIGATORY BODIES HAVE FUNCTIONED, EVEN IF THOSE ARE WELL-PLACED , I REALLY DON'T THINK THERE IS A LOT TO FEAR HERE.

IT IS A VERY DISCREET, CONFIDENTIAL PROCESS AND THERE'S NO JUDGMENT PLACED IN THE HANDS OF THE FBI OR CAREER GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES.

THE JUDGMENT IS WITHIN THE HANDS OF THE SENATE AND, IN PARTICULAR, AT THIS POINT, THE SENATE CONTROLLED BY A MAJORITY OF THE PRESIDENTS PARTY.

>> NOMA, AS WE TALK, ONE OF YOUR CONCERNS IS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THE PRESIDENT HAS NOMINATED WHO ARE BILLIONAIRES.

WHY IS THERE SORT OF ASSET HOLDINGS SORT OF SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE OF CONCERN DURING AN FBI BACKGROUND CHECK?

>> WELL, I THINK THE ALL DOESN'T INHERENTLY DISQUALIFY ANYBODY.

YOU CAN HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE ESTABLISHED PROFESSIONALS WHO DESERVE A DECISION BASED ON THE CAREER THAT GOT THEM VERY WEALTHY.

THERE ARE CERTAINLY ATTENTIONAL CONCERNS THAT COME UP.

ONE IS THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST THE POTENTIAL FOR OFFICIALS TO BE ASKED TO MAKE DECISIONS ON QUESTIONS THAT SPECIFICALLY AFFECT THEIR WEALTH, MAYBE AFFECT COMPANIES THAT THEY OWN OR THAT THEY WORK FOR OR THAT THEY INVEST IN.

AND, SO, THAT IS THE FIRST PIECE, IS TO REALLY DETERMINE WHAT SOMEBODY'S FINANCIAL INTERESTS ARE SO THAT YOU CAN SEE WHETHER THERE MIGHT BE CONFLICT.

A LOT OF THOSE CONFLICTS COULD BE ADDRESSED BY DIVESTING OR RECUSING.

THAT SOMEBODY IS NOT FIT TO BE IN OFFICE.

IT JUST MAY INFORM THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS THAT A SENATOR ASKS AND THE KINDS OF ASSURANCES THEY SEEK.

THE OTHER THING THAT COMES WITH TREMENDOUS WEALTH IS A QUESTION OF WHETHER A CABINET FILLED WITH A VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE IS GOING TO BE LOOKING OUT FOR THE INTERESTS OF REGULAR AMERICANS WHO AREN'T TREMENDOUSLY WEALTHY RATHER THAN SERVING IN THE INTEREST OF MILLIONAIRES AND BILLIONAIRES.

THAT IS NOT REALLY A BACKGROUND INVESTIGATION QUESTION, THAT IS A QUESTION FOR THE SENATE AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO CONSIDER IN TERMS OF WHAT KIND OF GOVERNMENT THEY WANT.

BUT, SO REALLY IN TERMS OF THE INVESTIGATION, IT IS MAKING SURE THAT THE SENATE HAS THE INFORMATION IT NEEDS TO GET ASSURANCES THAT PEOPLE WILL TAKE THE STEPS THEY NEED TO MAKE DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE RATHER THAN THEIR OWN BOTTOM LINE.

>> ONE QUESTION AT THE COURT OF THIS IS, IS THERE A REQUIREMENT THAT THIS BACKGROUND CHECK HAS TO HAPPEN?

GOING FORWARD, CAN THE PRESIDENT SAY I DON'T REALLY CARE, I'M GOING TO A POINT THIS PERSON TO THIS ROLE BECAUSE IT IS WITHIN MY RIGHTS TO DO SO AND LET'S SAY I HAVE ENOUGH INFLUENCE OVER SENATE REPUBLICANS AND THE SENATE AT LUNCH TO SAY GET MY NOMINEE THROUGH.

GREGG ?

>> I THINK THE AMERICAN POLITICAL NOTION WAS , THE REVOLUTION WAS FOUGHT AGAINST THE KING AND IN THE COLONIAL EXPERIENCE, THE KING'S APPOINTEES.

THE GRIEVANCES AMERICANS HAD WERE OVER RURAL APPOINTEES WHO WERE OFTEN UNQUALIFIED OVER THERE OFFICE TO POLITICAL FLATTERY OF THE MONARCH, AND ACTED AS PETTY TYRANTS WITH THE POWER THAT THEY WERE GRANTED OVER AMERICANS.

SO, WHEN THE FOUNDERS WROTE THE CONSTITUTION, SENATE CONFIRMATION WAS A CORPORATE OF THE PROTECTION OF OUR LIBERTIES .

AND, THE IDEA WAS THAT BY INVOLVING THE SENATE IN THIS PROCESS, YOU WOULD MAKE SURE THAT THE PRESIDENT COULDN'T APPOINT PEOPLE WHO ARE UNQUALIFIED, MERELY POLITICAL FLATTERERS OF HIM, OR HER, AND WHO UNDERSTOOD THEIR DUTIES UNDER THE LAW.

THIS IS A CORE FEATURE OF OUR CONSTITUTION AND IT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.

SENATE CONFIRMATION IS IMPORTANT.

AND, IT IS MUCH LESS MEANINGFUL IF IT IS NOT INFORMED, NOT AN INFORMED PROCESS.

THIS FBI PROCESS IS WHAT HAS PHILIP TO HELP THE SENATE WHERE NOW WE PROCESS HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF NOMINEES IN THE SENATE , MANY MORE THAN IN THE EARLY DAYS, AND IT IS A LOT OF INFORMATION OUT THERE, A LOT TO GO THROUGH INTO THIS PROCESS IS BUILT UP TO MAKE SURE THAT THE SENATE CONSENT TO APPOINTMENTS IS CAN INFORMED CONSENT.

TOSSING IT ASIDE WOULD BE A MASSIVE DISRUPTION IN THE BALANCE OF POWERS.

I THINK REPUBLICAN SENATORS, DEMOCRATIC SENATORS, ALL SENATORS SHOULD INSIST THAT NOMINATIONS BLINDLY.

THEY WILL NOT PROCESS NOMINATIONS WITHOUT AN ADEQUATE RECORD ON WHICH TO DECIDE.

WHEN NOAH AND I WERE ON THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, WE DIDN'T MOVE FORWARD ON NOMINATIONS UNTIL THIS WAS DONE, UNTIL WE HAD THE FBI FILE IN HAND, UNTIL WE HAD MADE ANY NECESSARY FOLLOW-UP SO THAT OUR BOSSES, THE SENATORS, COULD MAKE INFORMED JUDGMENTS ON THESE NOMINATIONS.

>> GREGG AND NOAH, BOTH OF YOU, I HEAR YOU IN THE BACKGROUND STILL CONSIDERING THE FBI CHECK AS ONE OF THE GOLD STANDARDS, IT CAN BE TRUSTED, IT IS A SOURCE OF INFORMATION THAT IS INHERENTLY UNBIASED IN WHAT THEY BRING UP AND HOW YOU PRESENT IT.

I WONDER IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW LET'S SAY, A NEW FBI DIRECTOR GETS INTO OFFICE WHO HAS GREATER ALLEGIANCE TO THE PRESIDENT.

CANNOT PROCESS ITSELF BE TEMPERED WITH, WEAPONIZED, TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION OF WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS STILL THE GOLD >> I AM WORRIED, OVER TIME, OF THE KIND OF IMPACT THAT A PRESIDENT COULD HAVE ON THE FEDERAL CIVIL SERVICE, ON THE JUDICIARY.

RIGHT NOW, I DO HAVE LOTS OF FAITH IN THESE INSTITUTIONS AND HOPE THEY REMAIN STRONG.

NOT TO SAY THEY ARE NOT WITHOUT PROBLEMS.

I THINK WE CAN TALK ABOUT REFORMS.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT REFORMS OF THIS PROCESS.

I DON'T WANT TO SUGGEST, NEITHER NOAH OR I WOULD SUGGEST IT IS PERFECT.

BUT, IT IS THOROUGH AND IT IS, IT HAS BEEN HANDLED WITH DISCRETION IN THE PAST AND I HOPE THAT THAT WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE CASE.

>> NOAH?

>> I AM CERTAINLY DEEPLY, DEEPLY TROUBLED BY NOMINEES WHO HAVE VOICED A DESIRE TO USE GOVERNMENT TO SETTLE POLITICAL SCORES, TO GO AFTER PERCEIVED I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT PRESIDENTS AS HAVING ENEMIES, WE ARE YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES AND DIFFERENT GOALS.

BUT THIS APPEARS TO BE A PRESIDENT WHO BELIEVES HE HAS ENEMIES.

IT IS VERY WORRISOME.

I DO THINK THAT THE MANY THOUSANDS OF EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONALS IN A PLACE LIKE THE FBI AND THROUGHOUT GOVERNMENT ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TRYING THEIR BEST TO DO THEIR JOBS IN A PROFESSIONAL AND OBJECTIVE WAY.

AS GREGG SAID, THE FBI IS NOT A PERFECT INSTITUTION.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SURE IS NOT PERFECT.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE BETTER.

I DO BELIEVE THAT EVEN IF SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THESE KINDS OF STATEMENTS ARE CONFIRMED, AND TRY TO DO THEIR JOBS IN THAT WAY, THAT THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL TRY TO CONTINUE TO BE OBJECTIVE AND DO THEIR JOBS IN FAIRWAYS.

ARE FIREMEN AND REPLACEMENTS OF CIVIL SERVANTS WITH LOYALISTS AND REQUIREMENTS THAT PEOPLE DO THEIR JOBS IN BIASED WAYS, THEN WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO REEVALUATE WHAT WE THINK ABOUT A PROCESS LIKE THIS.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHERE WE ARE NOW.

I HOPE THAT IS NOT HERE WE GO.

IT IS CERTAINLY A SOURCE OF CONCERN.

>> NOAH BOOKBINDER, RESIDENT AND CEO OF CREW AND GREGG NUNZIATA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE SOCIETY FOR THE RULE OF LAW.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT NOTES THERE.

FINALLY, WE MARK THE PASSING OF ONE OF AMERICA'S GREAT .

SHE HAS DIED AGED 81, A PASSIONATE AND PROLIFIC WRITER, NIKKI GIOVANNI WROTE TWO BEST-SELLING POETRY COLLECTIONS AND MANY CHILDREN'S BOOKS.

A LEADING LIGHT AMONGST THE BLACK ARTIST, HER WORK WAS PARTLY INSPIRED BY HER LOVE OF JAZZ AND BLUES.

FOR THE NEXT GENERATION , AS A PROFESSOR AT VIRGINIA TECH.

AFTER BRUTAL SHOOTINGS THAT LEFT 32 PEOPLE DEAD IN 2007, IT WAS NIKKI GIOVANNI'S WORDS THAT CLOSED THE MEMORIAL TO THE VICTIMS.

IN ONE OF HER POEMS, SHE GRAPPLED WITH FACING HER OWN DEATH AND SHE WROTE "I HOPE I DIE WARMED BY THE LIFE THAT I TRIED TO LEAVE.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW.

>>>