December 11, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO..

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

WE HAVE SAID STUFF THAT THE MOMENTUM IS COMING BACK.

>> A KEY MEDIATOR IN THE GAZA CEASE-FIRE TALKS TALKS ABOUT GETTING THEM BACK ON TRACK.

>>> THE BIBI FILES AS PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TAKES THE STAND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LONG RUNNING CORRUPTION TRIAL, A NEW DOCUMENTARY REVEALS THE MAN BEHIND THE PUBLIC IMAGE.

>>> PLUS, THE SUPREME COURT AND CONTEMPT FOR EXPERTISE ACCORDING TO JOURNALIST MARSHA GETS IN.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING LEAR, THE SOVIET A AND SIMON B POLITO PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM YOURS -- VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IS THERE RENEWED HOPE AND MOMENTUM FOR A CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE DEAL IN GAZA?

BOTH OUTGOING AND INCOMING U.S.

ADMINISTRATIONS WANT THAT TO HAPPEN BEFORE JANUARY TRANSFER OF POWER ON INAUGURATION DATE.

SINCE LAST MONTH'S CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH, WE CAN BE MORE OPTIMISTIC THAT WE ARE NOT THERE YET.

THE FAMILY STILL INSIDE GAZA HAVE HAD TO BEAR THE LOSS OF DASHED HOPES SINCE THE LAST AND ONLY NEGOTIATED DEAL BROUGHT THE FIRST BATCH HOME LAST YEAR.

BUT INSIDE GAZA, THE APPALLING INCONSISTENT BOMBINGS, SHOOTINGS, STARVATION AND EVACUATIONS AND FORCED DISPLACEMENTS OF CIVILIANS AS WELL AS MILITANTS HAVE CAUSED EVEN A FORMER ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER TO LABEL THEM WERE CRIMES.

MORE EVIDENCE POURS IN EVERY DAY, HERE A FATHER HOLDING AND MOURNING HIS DEAD CHILD.

AND THESE IMAGES, MORE THAN 44,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOW BEEN KILLED IN GAZA SINCE THE OCTOBER MASSACRE INSIDE ISRAEL.

QATAR HAS PLAYED THE CENTRAL MEDIATOR ROLE THROUGHOUT, AND THROUGHOUT GATHERING TO DISCUSS AN END TO THIS WAR.

I SPOKE TO FOREIGN MINISTER'S >> WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE STATE OF A POSSIBLE CEASE- FIRE RIGHT NOW?

AND THE IMPACT OF A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ON THE REGION?

>> SINCE THE START OF THE WAR, AND THE PROCESS ITSELF BEING EXPLOITED AND A LOT OF SCRUTINY THAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH BECAUSE OF YOU KNOW, SOME PARTIES TRYING TO SCORE SOME POLITICAL POINTS.

NOW, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST DAYS JUST BEFORE THE ELECTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE SOME STUFF THAT THE MOMENTUM IS COMING BACK AND NOW WHEN IT COMES TO ANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION THE OUTGOING ONE AND THEN COMING ONE, OF COURSE THERE WILL BE SOME DIFFERENCES IN THE THEMES OF THE APPROACH IN THE WAY THEY ARE APPROACHING THINGS BUT I DON'T, WE DIDN'T SEE OR RECOGNIZE ANY DISAGREEMENT ON THE GOAL ITSELF TO END THE WAR.

WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF ENCOURAGEMENT FROM THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE A DEAL EVEN BEFORE THE PRESIDENT COMES TO OFFICE AND THAT HAS ACTUALLY MADE US TRYING TO MOVE THINGS BACK AND TRYING TO PUT THIS BACK ON TRACK AND WE HAVE BEEN ENGAGING.

NOW, IN TERMS OF WHERE WE ARE.

YOU KNOW THAT THIS MATTER IS AFFECTING A LOT WHETHER IT IS AFFECTING THE PEOPLE AND THE SUFFERING THAT THEY SUFFER OR EVEN AFFECT THING THE FAMILIES IN ISRAEL, THE FAMILIES OF THE HOSTAGES AND UNFORTUNATELY GIVEN THE WAY IT HAS BEEN MANAGED THROUGHOUT AND EVERYTHING BEING PUT OUT IN THE PUBLIC DEMAND, RAISING HOPE FOR THOSE INNOCENT PEOPLE IS, HAS BEEN COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE GAPS AND THE DISAGREEMENTS, THEY ARE NOT SOMETHING SUBSTANTIAL THAT'S REALLY AFFECTS IT, IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MANY QUESTIONS, IS THERE A WILLINGNESS TO END THE WAR, YES OR NO?

IS THERE A WILLINGNESS TO HAVE AN EXCHANGE DEAL, YES OR NO.

THOSE ARE TWO VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS WITH VERY SIMPLE ANSWERS.

IF ANSWERS ARE YES AND BOTH QUESTIONS, THEN WE HAVE A DEAL.

>> FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IN EUROPE, AS YOU KNOW PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS NOT LAY DOWN ANY PLAN.

OF THE ALLIES, SAUDI ARABIA, THE UNITED STATES, QATAR SAYS IT MUST BE ALSO A PALESTINIAN STATE AND A WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAEL.

YOUR COUNTRY IS FROM GAZA, YOUR COUNTRY IS ONE OF SOCIAL IS ALREADY RECOGNIZED A PALESTINIAN STATE, YOU HAVE A REALLY CENTRAL ROLE.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING POLITICALLY?

>> THAT IS THE ESSENTIAL QUESTION AND I WANT TO COMMEND THE EXCELLENT WORK OF MOHAMMED HIMSELF AND THE DIPLOMATS IN WORKING TOWARDS A CEASE-FIRE AND THIS COMES BACK TO WHAT TO DO WITH GAZA AFTERWARDS.

AND IT MUST BE THE MOMENT TO MOVE TOWARDS THE STATE.

WE NEED A TWO STATE SOLUTION BUT NOT A THREE STATE SOLUTION, WE WANT TO INTEGRATE PALESTINE COMPROMISING THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, WESTERN PARTS OF JERUSALEM.

AND, THE DRAMA AND THE HORROR IS SO DEEP NOW THAT WE CANNOT GO BACK TO THE SIXTH OF OCTOBER LAST YEAR, THAT WAS NOT A STABLE LASTING SITUATION.

PEOPLE HAVE NOT STEPPED ON THE MIND BUT IT WAS ABOUT TO EXPLODE, IT DID EXPLODE IN HERE COMES YOUR QUESTION ABOUT THE INCOMING U.S. ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP WAS VERY INVEST IT.

I THINK THE MESSAGE NOW FROM THIS REGION IS THAT THAT IS PERFECTLY DOABLE.

IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE IDEAL BUT IT HAS TO HAPPEN WITH PALESTINE.

AND I THINK AS LONG, THIS IS ALSO WHAT THE GROUP THAT SAUDI ARABIA, QATAR, NORWAY, WHAT THEY'RE FORMING NOW IS A VERY COLLECTIVE MESSAGE THAT THIS IS THE TIME TO THINK BIG, TO THINK OF A POLITICAL SOLUTION, TO THINK THAT PEACE FOR ISRAEL, PEACE FOR PALESTINE, REGIONAL PEACE IS CONNECTED BECAUSE ALL THESE DIFFERENT CONFLICTS, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

THERE IS THE ROOT CONFLICT THAT CONNECTS TO ALL OF THEM WHICH IS THE ABSENCE OF THE SOLUTION AND THAT HAS BEEN THE DRIVER OF NORWAY AND MY OWN FOREIGN POLICY OVER THE LAST YEAR TO REALLY SEE THAT TODAY IT CANNOT BE JUST A WESTERN COUNTRY OR TWO TO COME IN AND FIX IT IT HAS TO BE EMBEDDED SERIOUSLY IN THIS REGION AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT ALSO ISRAEL BECOMES A COUNTRY NOT ONLY IN THE REGION BUT OFF THE REGION CONNECTED TO ITS NEIGHBORS IN PEACE.

THAT CAN ONLY HAPPEN WITH THE PALESTINIAN STATE AND HONESTLY, IT MIGHT SOUND NAOVE BUT I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY HARD POLITICS, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE SO WE HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD.

WE ARE THERE TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.

>> I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT BECAUSE CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE INCOMING U.S. ADMINISTRATION WHO HAVE BEEN NOMINATED TO WORK ON THIS HAVE SUGGESTED ALTERNATIVES.

SO I WILL GET BACK TO THAT IN A SECOND BUT DO YOU, PRIME MINISTER, IT IS SAID THAT THERE WAS A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM WE KNOW THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TRYING TO HOPEFULLY DRAW A WEDGE INTO THE U.S. MORE BUT, PRESIDENT- ELECT TRUMP HAS ALSO THREATENED BRICKS OF WHICH YOU ARE A MEMBER WITH 100% TARIFFS IF THIS AND THAT.

>> LOOK, WE HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP, A VERY SOLID RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YES THERE WERE SOME ISSUES, MOSTLY TRADE ISSUES THAT THERE WERE A WHOLE LOT OF ISSUES ON WHICH ACTUALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS VERY INTERNATIONAL.

THERE IS A CERTAIN PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN RESIDENT TRUMP I WOULD SAY IN TERMS OF POLITICS, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE DIVISIVE ISSUES IN TERMS OF OUR POLITICAL OUTLOOK.

AS TWO COUNTRIES BY AND LARGE, I THINK THEY OUTSTRIP ANY DIFFERENCES WE HAVE.

WHETHER THE REMARK WAS CONCERNED, I THINK I AM NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT WAS THE TRIGGER FOR IT.

RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO PROPOSAL TO HAVE A CURRENCY BUT I JUST WANT TO MAKE ONE REMARK COMING BACK TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

THE CORE ISSUE UNDOUBTEDLY IS PALESTINE AND ISRAEL'S RELATIONSHIP, HOW DO THEY REGION ENDING.

THERE IS A LARGER ISSUE SIDE-BY- SIDE WHICH IS JUST A WIDENING OF THIS COUNTRY WHICH IS ALSO A MAJOR CONCERN.

TODAY WE HAVE, I DON'T WANT TO SAY WE'VE NORMALIZED IT AT THE FACT IS TWO YEARS AGO THE PROSPECT OF ISRAEL AND IRAN ACTUALLY FIGHTING EACH OTHER WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING THAT WE COULDN'T HAVE EVEN CONTEMPLATED AND YET IT HAS HAPPENED.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE RED SEA AND THE IMPACT FOR SHIPPING, IT'S HUGE.

SO I THINK THERE ARE DIFFERENT CHALLENGES AND LAYERS OF THEM.

I THINK THERE IS A CASE FOR MORE VIGOROUS DIPLOMACY, FOR A MORE PARTICIPATION AND I THINK MORE COUNTRIES NEED TO HAVE THE BOLDNESS TO RIGHT THE BULLET.

>> I NEED TO ASK YOU ONE MORE QUESTION ON THIS TOPIC.

AS THE U.N. MIDDLE EAST, YOU TOLD THE NEW YORK TIMES, POLITICS FAILED, DIPLOMACY FAILED THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY FAILED AND THE PARTIES FAILED.

FAILED TO BRING ABOUT THE PERMANENT SOLUTION TO THE CRISIS THAT REALLY AFFECTS THIS WHOLE REGION AND SO MUCH OF THE WORLD.

AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE AGAIN, THE INCOMING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LET SAY MIKE HUCKABEE WHO IS BEING APPOINTED AS THE AMBASSADOR HAS SAID THIS WEEK THAT OF COURSE IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE U.S. WOULD BACK THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WERE TO TRY TO ANNEX THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, I'M SURE ALL OF YOU HAVE IDEAS ABOUT THAT BUT WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD LEAD AND DO YOU THINK IT IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THE U.S. WOULD ACCEPT?

DOES EUROPE AGREE?

DO YOU HAVE ANY POWER TO DISAGREE?

>> VERSE I THINK WE SHOULD RELATE TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHEN IT IS ACTUALLY AN OFFICE IN WHEN THEY ARE ACTUALLY PRESENTING REAL POLICIES FROM THE POSITION OF POWER SO NOT TO PREEMPT TOO MUCH BY COMMENTING DIRECTLY ON HIS COMMENTS BUT I DID SAY AND I WILL MAINTAIN THAT WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO START SOLVING THE INTRICATE SET OF PROBLEMS IN THIS REGION WITHOUT DEALING WITH A SOLUTION TO PALESTINE IN THE SOLUTION IS NOT TO PERPETUATE.

THIS IS ALSO BEEN VERY FIRMLY PUT OUT BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE WHICH IS EVERYBODY'S COURT, IT IS THE HIGHEST U.N. COURT.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE THAT AS A STARTING POINT AS WE MOVE FORWARD AND I DO ALSO THINK AS I SAID EARLIER THAT THERE ARE'S OPPORTUNITIES WORKING ON THE APPROACH GIVEN THE SOLID MESSAGE THAT THAT CAN HAPPEN BUT PALESTINE IS PART OF IT.

NORWAY HAS A LONG TRADITION OF PEACE MEDIATION AND DIALOGUE FACILITATION AND WE ALSO VERY MUCH SHARE THE VISION THAT IN ORDER TO GET THINGS DONE YOU NEED TO SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE THAT MATTERS.

EVEN IF THOSE ARE PEOPLE THAT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY APPROVE OF AND BEGINNING IS NOT APPROVING, SPEAKING IS NOT ENDORSEMENT, EKING IS NECESSARY IN ORDER TO FACILITATE DIALOGUE WITH THE PEOPLE THAT CAN ACTUALLY CHANGE THINGS I THINK IT IS NECESSARY AND I THINK WHEN THEY ARE IN PLACE AND LOOKS AT THE WHOLE PICTURE IN THE TOTALITY, I INC.

THEY WILL FORM A MORE HOLISTIC POLICY ON THIS AND I VERY MUCH LOOK FORWARD THAT WE ALL CAN ENGAGE WITH THEM WHEN THEY ARE THERE I SEE OPPORTUNITIES I SEE CHALLENGES THAT I ALSO SEE OPPORTUNITIES AND I THINK THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY HERE TO WHAT ACTUALLY COULD BECOME THE DEAL OF THE CENTURY I MEAN IT COULD HAPPEN HERE BUT IT REQUIRES THAT SOME OF THE INSIGHTS FROM THE REGION ARE BROUGHT IN.

>> IS YOUR MEMBER, PRESIDENT TRUMP DID RECOGNIZE ISRAEL.

IT IS NOT WITHOUT PRECEDENT BUT ANYWAY I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, LET'S WAIT UNTIL THEY GET INTO OFFICE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU AND ASK ALL OF YOU IN A MOMENT, THE MAJOR WAR OF EUROPE, YOU GET A LOT OF CHEAP OIL STILL FROM RUSSIA I BELIEVE.

>> I GET OIL, YES.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY CHEAP.

IF YOU HAVE A BETTER DEAL I'M WILLING -- BUT IT IS RUSSIA AND IT IS A GOOD DEAL FOR YOU.

I WANT TO KNOW, DOES INDIA HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY OR WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE WILL BE THE MOMENTUM ON THIS RUSSIA INVASION OF UKRAINE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN PARTICULARLY WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

I KNOW THEY AREN'T AN OFFICE BUT THEY HAVE VERY CLEARLY TELEGRAPHED THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO KEEP HELPING UKRAINE MILITARILY.

>> TWO COMMENTS, ONE REGARDING THE CONFLICT, THE WAR ITSELF.

>> WE HAVE ALWAYS HELD TO THE VIEW THAT THIS WAR IS NOT GOING TO BE SOLVED ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

AT THE END OF THE DAY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO RETURN TO SOME KIND OF NEGOTIATING TABLE THIS AND ARE THE BETTER AND OUR EFFORT HAS BEEN TO FACILITATE THAT TO THE EXTENT.

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU THAT IS NOT ALWAYS IN THE MOST POPULAR THING AT LEAST IN SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD BUT, I DO THINK TODAY THE GENERAL, THE NEEDLE IS MOVING MORE TOWARDS THE REALITY OF A NEGOTIATION THAN THE CONTINUATION OF THE WAR.

NOW WE ARE REALLY PUTTING IN A WAY OUR -- WE ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO MOSCOW, TALKING TO PRESIDENT PUTIN AND ENGAGING PRESIDENT ZELENSKY.

TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN ENCOURAGE, FIND COMMON THREADS WHICH CAN BE PICKED UP AT SOME POINT IN TIME WHEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARRIVE FOR IT.

WE ARE NOT ATTEMPTING A PIECE PLAN.

WE ARE DOING MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS AND VERY TRANSPARENT ABOUT TELLING EACH PARTY SAYING LOOK, AT THE END OF THE CONVERSATION, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO TELL THE OTHER PARTY.

WE THINK AT THIS POINT IN TIME, THAT IS THE MOST USEFUL THING THAT ANY COUNTRY WANTING TO SEE AN END TO THE CONFLICT CAN DO DIPLOMATICALLY.

WE ALSO BELIEVE IN THIS THAT WE ARTICULATE THE SENTIMENT AND THE INTEREST OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH, 125 OTHER COUNTRIES WHO HAVE FOUND THEIR FOOD COSTS, THEIR INFLATION, THEIR FERTILIZER COSTS IMPACTED BY THIS WAR SO THERE IS A CONSTITUENCY OUT THERE THAT SAYS PLEASE DO THIS, PLEASE CARRY ON WITH THIS AND QUITE HONESTLY IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS I'VE EVEN SEEN THE SENTIMENT EXPRESSED BY EUROPEAN LEADERS, MAJOR EUROPEAN LEADERS WHO ARE ACTUALLY TELLING US, PLEASE KEEP ENGAGING RUSSIA AND ENGAGING UKRAINE WE WELCOME NOT.

>> IS COMING TO YOU ON THIS BECAUSE I THINK THERE WILL BE A LOT MORE PRESSURE FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ON EUROPE TO TAKE CHARGE OF THEIR OWN SECURITY MORE AND THE IDEA OF GIVING WEAPONS TO UKRAINE WAS OKAY MAYBE THEY COULD HELP THEM WIN BUT THEY NEVER GAVE ENOUGH TO HELP THEM WIN BUT APPARENTLY NOT EVEN ENOUGH TO PUT THEM IN A SORT OF EQUAL, COEQUAL PLACE AT THE BARGAINING TABLE SO HOW TO USE THE AN END TO THIS DIPLOMATICALLY?

>> ACTUALLY I THINK WE ARE LATE BUT GETTING MUCH MORE NOW WE ARE ALSO LOOSENING RESTRICTIONS INTO RUSSIAN TERRITORY IN SEVERAL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES INCLUDING MY OWN OVER THE LAST WEEKS ACTUALLY STEPPED UP QUITE A BIT QUANTITY AND QUALITY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY SOMEBODY HAS TO TALK BUT IT HAS TO BE NOT JUST PEACE, IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT CAN CREATE A POSTWAR ORDER IN EUROPE, POST UKRAINE WAR ORDER AND IT DOES NOT REINFORCE THAT YOU CAN CHANGE BORDERS BY MILITARY MEANS AND THAT YOU CAN TRY TO UNDERMINE ALL OF THEM.

THERE ARE SOME PRINCIPALS OUT THERE AND THEY ARE BEING VIOLATED BIG-TIME AND WHEN THE SECOND WORLD WAR ENDED WE GO TO U.N. AND WE GOT SOME KEY PRINCIPLES OF RELATIONS BETWEEN STATES ONE OF THEM BEING THE NUMBER ONE RULE, THOUGH SHALL NOT OCCUPY OTHER COUNTRIES ROLLER SELF-DEFENSE IS LEGAL WE ALSO CREATED WARS HOW -- RULES HOW WAR SHOULD BE FOUGHT.

AND WHEN I CRITICIZE RUSSIA IT IS NOT BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO SIDE WITH UKRAINE IT IS BECAUSE THEY BROKE THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE IN RELATION BETWEEN STATES AND THAT SHALL NOT HAPPEN.

WHEN I CRITICIZE ISRAEL AND GAZA IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE MASSIVELY OVERSTEPPING THE RULES OF WARFARE MEANING THE DISTINCTION AND PRINCIPLE IS NATIONAL LAW.

SOMETIMES WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO TAKE A PRINCIPLED APPROACH AND THE PROBLEM NOW IS THAT WE HAVE ONE PART OF THE WORLD WHO IS HIGHLIGHTING CORRECTLY THE ROUGHEST VIOLATIONS OF UKRAINE SOVEREIGNTY BUT IN GAZA AND THEN YOU HAVE ANOTHER PART OF THE WORLD WHO ARE CORRECTLY CRITICIZING ISRAEL AND GAZA BUT RATHER WOBBLY ON THE PRINCIPLES THAT HAVE BEEN VIOLATED IN UKRAINE AND I PROUDLY SAY THAT I STAND UP FOR THE PRINCIPLES IN BOTH CASES, I WILL DEMAND BEHAVIOR OF RUSSIA AND UKRAINE AND I WILL DEMAND COMPLIANCE IN GAZA.

>> WHAT IS ANOTHER BIG THREAT THAT, THAT IS ON YOUR PLATE RIGHT NOW?

>> THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT WE GO BACK TO FIRST PRINCIPLES AND WHAT'S, LIKE IT WAS JUST MENTIONED, WE ARE TRYING TO APPLY INTERNATIONAL LAW THEY NEED TO BE APPLIED EQUALLY TO EVERYONE INTO EACH AND EVERY CONFLICT.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS ACTUALLY FROM THE PEOPLE OF THIS REGION THAT A LOT OF COUNTRIES THAT CONSIDER THE LEADING COUNTRIES AND INTERNATIONAL LAW LEADING COUNTRIES IN HUMAN RIGHTS AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAW, THEY ARE JUST TURNING A BLIND EYE FROM WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE REGION AND LOOKING AT WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH UKRAINE ONLY FROM THAT LENS IT IS DIFFERENT, WE HAVE OTHER REGIONS -- REASONS.

THERE ARE HISTORICAL DIMENSIONS TO THIS.

YES WE KNOW THERE ARE HISTORICAL DIMENSIONS TO THE BUT THE HISTORICAL DIMENSIONS CAN NEVER GIVE THE LICENSE TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE LIKE THIS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> PRIME MINISTERS, FOREIGN MINISTERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

REALLY INTERESTING.

>> A LOT OF WORK AHEAD HOPEFULLY SOME RESULTS.

WHILE ISRAEL CARRIES OUT HUNDREDS OF AIRSTRIKES ACROSS SYRIA ON WHAT THEY CALL MILITARY TARGETS.

MIDDLE EASTERN NATIONS ARE ACCUSING THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OF EXPLOITING THE SITUATION TO EXECUTE THERE.

MEANWHILE, PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS FACING HIS OWN INTERNAL BATTLE AT HOME OVER ALLEGATIONS OF CORRUPTION AND BRIBERY.

THIS WEEK HE BECAME THE FIRST SITTING PRIME MINISTER TO TESTIFY IN COURT AGAINST CRIMINAL CHARGES.

AND NOW, A NEW DOCUMENTARY IS OFFERING AN EXTRAORDINARY INSIGHT BEHIND THE SCENES.

THE BIBI FILES TEACHERS -- FEATURES EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEWS.

DO TO STRICT IS REALLY PRIVACY LAWS, THE REALM CAN'T BE LEGALLY DISTRIBUTED IN ISRAEL AND WE CAN'T SHOW THE INTERROGATION FOOTAGE EITHER.

NETANYAHU DENIES ALL OF THE CHARGES.

I SPOKE WITH THE PRODUCER ABOUT WHAT THEY FOUND.

>> ALEX GIBNEY AND ALEXIS BLOOM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, GOT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU ARE THE PRODUCER, ALEX, AND YOU ARE THE DIRECTOR, ALEXIS.

ALEX, YOU WERE GIVEN THE TIP OFF ABOUT THESE INTERROGATION VIDEOS.

>> YES, I HAVE A POP UP ON SIGNAL AND MOST OF THEM ARE CRANKS BUT THIS ONE APPEARED TO BE REAL.

A SOURCE SAID THAT THERE WERE THESE POLICE INTERROGATION VIDEOS WHICH FORMED THE BASIS OF THE INDICTMENT OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU ON CORRUPTION CHARGES AND THESE ARE THE POLICE ACTUALLY INTERVIEWING NETANYAHU, HIS WIFE, HIS SON AND ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE CORRUPTION CASE.

I DON'T THE HEBREW SO IT TOOK ME A MOMENT TO RECKON WITH HIM BUT I FIGURED THEY WERE PROBABLY GOING TO BE PRETTY POTENT.

THE NEXT THING I DID WAS TO BRING ON A PRODUCER WHO IS A VERY WELL-ESTABLISHED INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST IN ISRAEL TO HELP ME KIND OF UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE AND VALUE OF THIS AND THEN I IMMEDIATELY TURNED TO ALEXIS TO DIRECT THE FILM.

SHE AND I WORKED TOGETHER BEFORE AND I KNEW SHE HAD THE JOURNALISTIC CHOPS AND SKILLS TO MAKE THIS WHAT IT NEEDED TO BE.

>> ALEXIS, LET ME ASK YOU, THE TRIAL IS UNDERWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE TRIAL ACTUALLY BEGAN IN 2020.

NETANYAHU IS IN THE COURTROOM, SO TO SPEAK.

IT IS A JERRYRIGGED COURT ROOM IN THE BASEMENT OF A BUILDING IN TEL AVIV.

WE ARE NOT SEEING WHAT IS GOING ON BUT THERE ARE REPORTS COMING OUT, IT IS PRETTY GOOD TIMING FOR THIS FILM.

>> YES IT IS PRETTY GOOD TIMING.

I MEAN, WE HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR A YEAR, ANYTIME YOU THINK SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN, ARE -- OR THAT HE IS GOING TO SAY SOMETHING OR HAVE TO FACE THE CHARGES, IT TURNS OUT THAT HE SORT OF SHIRKS THEM.

THE FIRST DAY OF THE COURT HEARING WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTING IN THAT HE USED IT MAINLY FOR GRANDSTANDING I WOULD SAY, HE WAS SAYING THAT THERE IS AN ATTEMPTED COUP AGAINST HIM, THE MEDIA IS OUT TO GET HIM, THAT THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS BIAS AND HE USED IT VERY MUCH TO SORT OF ATTACK WHAT HE CALLS THE DEEP STATE.

>> WELL LOOK, YOU SAID THE DEEP STATE IT SOUNDS LIKE TRUMP AS WELL WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THE MEDIA AGAINST HIM HIS DOMESTIC ENEMIES AGAINST HIM AND HE USES THOSE TERMS AND THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING CERTAINLY FROM WHAT YOU HAVE A ORDERED AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE INTERROGATION TAPES, IT WAS VERY MUCH PUTTING THE BURDEN ON ALL OF HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES IN-HOUSE.

BUT HERE'S THE THING, ALEXIS AND ALEX, YOUR REALM CANNOT BE SEEN AT THIS POINT INSIDE ISRAEL BECAUSE OF VARIOUS LAWS AND PRIVACY PROVISIONS THAT PROHIBIT THAT KIND OF INTERROGATION FOOTAGE BEING SHOWN AT THIS TIME.

ALEX, HOW DO YOU THINK IT IS GOING TO GET TO THE PEOPLE WHO YOU WANT TO SEE?

>> WELL, I DO THINK THAT WE WANTED THE INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE TO SEE IT AND THEY WILL SEE IT IN ALL OF ITS HONESTY AND GLORY.

THE PEOPLE IN ISRAEL WILL SEE IT BUT ALMOST CERTAINLY VIA PIRATED MEANS.

WE ALREADY KNOW THAT IT HAS CAUSED A BIG STIR IN ISRAEL.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS INTERROGATION VIDEO IS THAT YOU SORT OF SEE NETANYAHU NOT EXACTLY IN AN UNGUARDED MOMENT, HE IS VERY AWARE OF THE CAMERA BUT IT IS A VERY VULNERABLE MOMENT, OR A SERIES OF MOMENTS.

AND THEN YOU SEE HIS WIFE AND HIS SON SHOW THIS KIND OF UNBELIEVABLE CONTEMPT FOR THE RULE OF LAW IN THE STATE WHICH IS I THINK FOR ISRAELIS VERY SHOCKING TO SEE.

IN THE LEAKS THAT HAVE HAPPENED OUTSIDE OF OFFICIAL CHANNELS, THEY ARE GETTING A LOOK AT IT AND IT IS CAUSING QUITE A STIR.

TWO BY THINK FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS WE HAVE BEEN LED IN PART BECAUSE NETANYAHU CONTROLS HIS IMAGE.

THIS IDEA THAT HE IS THE GRAND STATESMAN.

THERE IS A KIND OF CORRUPT PETTY CRIMINAL UNDERBELLY TO THIS MAN WHICH THESE TAPES REALLY SHOW IN A WAY THAT I THINK MANY PEOPLE WILL FIND SHOCKING.

>> WE HAVE TO SAY THAT HE DENIES ALL OF THE CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

HAVING SAID THAT, ALEXIS, DESCRIBE FOR US SINCE WE CANNOT AND ON THIS PLATFORM, INTERNATIONAL VIEWERS WILL NOT SEE THE CLIPS, COULD YOU TELL US , DESCRIBE WHAT ALEX IS TALKING ABOUT.

I HAVE SEEN THE SCREENER OBVIOUSLY AND I AGREE IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT NETANYAHU UNDER INTERROGATION ALBEIT AWARE OF THE CAMERA THAN IT IS IN HIS USUAL PUBLIC POSTURE.

>> WELL, THE INTERROGATIONS WERE LENGTHY EVEN THOUGH HE CONTROLS WHEN THE POLICE COME AND THEY HAVE TO COME TO HIM, TO HIS OFFICE UNLIKE THE OTHER INTERROGATIONS WHERE PEOPLE GO TO THE POLICE STATION BUT THEY ARE LENGTHY SO SOME OF THEM ARE FOUR HOURS LONG AND IF YOU LOOK, I ALWAYS TENDED TO LOOK AT THE END OF THE INTERROGATIONS VERSE WHEN HE GETS TIRED.

WHEN HE GETS TIRED, THE MASK SLIPS AND HE GETS ANGRY AND SWEATY HE GETS DEFENSIVE THERE IS A LOT OF ARM CROSSING AND THE DENIALS GET MORE REPEATED HE GETS EXASPERATED SO YOU DO SEE HIM ON THE DEFENSIVE OCCASIONALLY HE LOSES HIS TEMPER AND HE BANGS THE TABLE.

MOST OFTEN WHEN HE HAS PLAYED THE RECORDINGS OF OTHER PEOPLE SO, OCCASIONALLY THE POLICE WILL PLAY EVER HOARDING WHERE ANOTHER WITNESS SAYS YOU KNOW THIS HAPPENED, HE ASKED ME TO DO THIS, HE ASKED ME TO APPROACH THIS PERSON HE ASKED ME TO SIGN THE PAPERWORK.

AND THEN NETANYAHU WILL GET ANGRY AND SAY HE IS LYING, HE HAS LYING OR MULTIPLE PEOPLE ARE LYING, THEY ARE ALL LYING.

AND THEN HE DOES GET QUITE INNOVATIVE.

>> THERE'S A VERY INTERESTING SEQUENCE IN ALEXIS'S FILM.

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE CLOSE TO NETANYAHU OR CALL WHAT AN EXTRAORDINARY MEMORY HE HAS NO EVERYTHING.

AND THEN YOU SEE A SERIES OF CLIPS IN WHICH HE SAYS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, I CAN'T REMEMBER, I CAN'T RECALL, DON'T REMEMBER I CAN'T RECALL AT WHICH POINT A POINT THE POLICE JUST LAUGH AND SAY, IF I WAS TO TELL YOU THAT LIGHT OVER THERE WHICH IS ON IS OFF, THAT WOULD BE A LIE BUT, IT IS SO EVIDENT THAT HE IS LYING THROUGHOUT THESE INTERROGATIONS SHAMELESSLY BUT IN WAYS THAT ARE CLEARLY VERY PROUD THIS.

>> IT IS ACTUALLY VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE HE DOES USE THAT DEVICE WHICH MANY DEFENDANTS DO USE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING QUESTIONED USE, I DON'T RECALL, I DON'T RECALL OR IN THIS CASE I WAS SURPRISED BECAUSE WAS VERY PETULANT, HE APPEARS VERY PETULANT, I MIGHT'VE DONE IT, I MIGHT NOT HAVE DONE IT THERE WAS A LOT OF THAT KIND OF STUFF AND I JUST WONDER, THERE IS A SENSE OF, I AM THE STATE.

YOU ARE ATTACKING ISRAEL WHEN YOU -- SO WHEN YOU ASKED ME THESE QUESTIONS.

DID YOU FEEL THAT, ALEXIS?

WHEN YOU SAW THE -- SHE REALLY IS LIKE THAT.

HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT MY HUSBAND WHO HAS DONE NOTHING BUT GOOD FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

>> I FELT THAT VERY STRONGLY BUT NOT ONLY ON THE MATERIAL, FROM EVERYBODY THAT ICE PICK TO IN ISRAEL BOTH ON THE RECORD AND OFF THE RECORD IT WAS A THEME THAT CAME UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL DOCTRINE, THE PEOPLE THAT I WAS TALKING TO SOME VERY RIGHT-WING PEOPLE WITH SAY HE THINKS HE IS KING DAVID.

IT CAME UP SO OFTEN, I WENT INTO THIS REALM NOT BEING AS CRITICAL OF NETANYAHU AS I HANDED UP BEING JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE I MEAN, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE I CAN'T COUNT WHO SAID THERE SHOULD BE A TERM LIMIT IN ISRAEL.

HE IS IN POWER NOW COMING UP TO 17 YEARS AND MANY MANY PEOPLE SAID THAT.

>> INTERESTING.

>> THROUGHOUT THE FILM YOU TALK TO PRINCIPALS AS WELL YOU DON'T JUST HAVE THE INTERROGATION BUT AS YOU TALKED TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN INTERROGATED.

AS YOU SAID ALSO VERY COPE SEE -- COPIOUSLY INTERVIEWED.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO IS ACCUSED OF PAYING OFF WITH CHAMPAGNE AND CIGARS.

HE DENIES ALL OF THIS BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE EXPRESS TO YOU, WHAT IS THE HOLD THAT SARA NETANYAHU HAS ON HIM ?

SHE IS IN EVERY MEETING AND WITH HIM ALL THE TIME WHETHER HE IS MEETING WITH HOSTAGE FAMILIES WITH A HISTORY AND POLITICAL MEETINGS, SHE IS A MAJOR PLAYER IN THE NETANYAHU POLITICAL COUPLE.

WHAT DID YOU THINK AFTER YOUR INTERVIEWS ABOUT HER INFLUENCE ON HIM?

>> I CAN'T SPECULATE IT.

>> I SORT OF MEAN WHAT PEOPLE TOLD YOU ABOUT IT IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A VERY CONVOLUTED PARTNERSHIP.

MAC I WOULD SAY THEY ARE CODEPENDENT CERTAINLY.

THEY ARE A POWER COUPLE EVERYBODY IN ISRAEL SAYS THEY ROLLED TOGETHER.

SHE HAD AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF POWER, SHE KNOWS HIS CASUAL I MEAN GENERALLY THE PATTERN WAS THAT BENJAMIN IS VERY SMART, KNOWLEDGEABLE AND SHE HAS THE INSTINCTS, THE EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, SHE SKIPS PEOPLE OUT FOR LOYALTY.

THAT IS HER DEPARTMENT SO THEY SORT OF, THEY UNIFY IN THIS WAY.

HE TURNS TO HER ON QUESTIONS OF LOYALTY WHO CAN I TRUST AND WHO DO I NOT TRUST AND WHO IS GOOD FOR THE FAMILY AND THAT IS KNOWN TO BE HER CONTRIBUTION TO THEIR PARTNERSHIP.

IT IS IS THIRD MARRIAGE IF THE OPTICS OF THEM GETTING DIVORCED AT THIS STAGE I THINK WOULD BE VERY BAD POLITICALLY FOR HIM SO THEY ARE SORT OF BONDED COME THE HIGH WATER.

>> IT IS VERY HUMAN.

SHE CAUGHT HIM IN AN ACT OF INFIDELITY AND EVER SINCE THEN ACCORDING TO PEOPLE ALEXIS SPOKE TO, SHE HAS HAD A VERY TIGHT HOLD ON HIM AND I THINK HE IS AFRAID THAT SHE WILL LEAVE HIM.

THIS IS VERY HUMAN STUFF.

IN THIS CASE AND HAS A DRAMATIC OF FACT ON THE STATE AND THERE IS ONE APPALLING MOMENT IN THE FILM WHERE FAMILIES OF HOSTAGE FAMILIES, ISRAELI HOSTAGE FAMILIES ARE SORT OF BROUGHT IN TO KISS THE RING OF SARA NETANYAHU IN ORDER TO HOPE THAT MAYBE SHE WILL EXERT SOME INFLUENCE ON HER HUSBAND TO TRY TO GET THEM BACK.

IT IS REALLY A VERY DISTURBING EPISODE.

>> I WANT TO FINALLY ASK YOU, ALEX, THIS HAD QUITE A LOT OF REAL-WORLD IMPLICATIONS.

HIS PREOCCUPATION WITH THE TRIAL AND THEN TRYING TO STAMP OUT THE DEMOCRATIC PROTEST AGAINST HIS SO-CALLED JUDICIAL OVERHAUL TO EVEN INCREASE THE POWER OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND HE WAS WARNED ABOUT IT, THE ENEMIES ARE WATCHING THE INTERNAL DYSFUNCTION AND HE DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION.

ONE OF THE CLIPS THAT WE ARE ABLE TO PLAY IS ABOUT THOSE WARNINGS AND WHAT PEOPLE, WHETHER THEY WERE IN INTELLIGENCE ORDINARY CIVILIANS FELT ABOUT THAT THAT PRECEDED THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRES BY HAMAS.

>> AFTER THE CATASTROPHE OF THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, IT BECAME ANOTHER INSTRUMENT TO STAY IN POWER.

WE SURVIVED IN A STATE OF WAR, HE SURVIVED IN A STATE OF INSTABILITY.

WE SURVIVE WHEN WE FIGHT EACH OTHER.

WE SURVIVE WHEN OUR ENEMIES FIGHT EACH OTHER.

>> A FOREVER WAR IS BENEFICIAL TO NETANYAHU, THIS MAKES PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE ALWAYS IN DANGER LIKE THEY ALWAYS NEED HIM.

THERE IS ALWAYS SOME HUGE THREAT I THINK THAT THAT HELPS HIM REMAIN PRIME MINISTER.

>> THAT IS QUITE DRAMATIC THAT TESTIMONY, THE FIRST WAS A MEMBER OF THE SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT, I HAVE INTERVIEWED HIM MANY TIMES.

THAT ESSENTIALLY NETANYAHU PUTS HIS OWN POLITICAL AND PHYSICAL SELF AHEAD OF NATIONAL GOOD.

>> YES.

AND I THINK THIS IS THE MOST APPALLING THING ABOUT THE NETANYAHU STORY, THIS FILM STARTS WITH EXAMPLES OF PETTY CORRUPTION, OF ENTITLEMENT GOING BACK TO YOUR IDEA.

BUT IT ENDS WITH THE MOST APPALLING AND HUGE CORRUPTION WHICH IS THE IDEA THAT YOU WILL CARRY ON AN UNBELIEVABLE AMOUNT OF CARNAGE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO SAVE GUARD YOUR OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL POSITION.

THAT IS A KIND OF CORRUPTION THAT REALLY IS STAGGERING IN ITS VENALITY AND DESTRUCTION.

>> OF COURSE AS YOU ALL KNOW, HE DENIES THAT NONETHELESS.

HERE WE ARE.

ALEX GIBNEY, ALEXIS BLOOM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND THE BIBI FILES IS OUT TODAY ON THE ONLINE PLATFORM.

AND HERE IN THE UK ON FRIDAY.

NOW TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT IN A CASE FROM TENNESSEE OVER MEDICAL CARE TO TRANSGENDER MINORS.

MASHA GESSEN LISTENED TO THE ARGUMENTS AND TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHAT STOOD OUT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU BEEN WRITING A LOT ABOUT THIS CASE THAT IS RECENTLY HAD AN ARGUMENT WITH THE SUPREME COURT.

THE UNITED STATES.

CAN YOU JUST WALK US THROUGH THE FACTS OF THE CASE?

>> TENNESSEE IS ONE OF THE STATES, ONE OF THE 26 STATES THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HAVE PLACED RESTRICTIONS ON GENDER AFFIRMING CARE.

IN THE CASE OF TENNESSEE IT IS A BLANKET BAN ON ANY GENDER AFFIRMING CARE TO MINORS.

REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEIR PARENTS WANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEIR PATIENTS THEMSELVES WANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE DOCTORS RECOMMEND, TENNESSEE BANDS GENDER ARMING CARE FOR MINORS.

>> HOW DID THIS CASE COME ABOUT?

>> AFTER THE BAN WAS INSTITUTED THE CIVIL RIGHTS GROUPS SUED ON BEHALF OF THREE TEENAGERS AND THEIR FAMILIES.

ALL OF THEM HAD BEEN RECEIVING GENDER AFFIRMING CARE AND UNDER THE BAN WOULD HAVE TO'S TOP RECEIVING THE CARE AND THE CASE, THIS IS WHERE IT GETS A LITTLE TECHNICAL BUT I THINK IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT.

SO THEY SUED ON DO PROCESS GRANT BASICALLY IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE ARGUING THAT IT IS THE PARENTS AND THE DOCTORS WHO SHOULD BE MAKING THE DECISIONS AND NOT THE STATE AND THEY SUED ON EQUAL PROTECTION GROUNDS CLAIMING THAT THE BAN CONSTITUTED SEX DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE DEPENDING ON WHETHER YOU ARE ASSIGNED MALE OR FEMALE AT BIRTH YOU HAVE DIFFERENT ACCESS TO DIFFERENT MEDICATIONS.

THEY WANTED IT IN COURT THAN IT WAS REVERSE ON THE APPEAL AND THE APPEALS COURT APPEALED AND THE SUPREME COURT AND THE SUPREME COURT AGREED TO HEAR THE CASE BUT ONLY ON EQUAL PROTECTION GROUNDS SO THE ONLY THING THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ARGUED IN THE SUPREME COURT LAST WEEK WAS THAT IT CONSTITUTED SEX DISCRIMINATION.

THAT IS NOT EXACTLY HOW IT WENT DOWN.

>> LET ME GO BACK A LITTLE BIT TO THE ORIGINS OF THE CASE.

IT IS NOT EXACTLY A SECRET THAT SOMETIMES LEGISLATORS AND SOMETIMES DIFFERENT GROUP ORGANIZE A CASE FOR THE PURPOSE OF RINGING IT BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT.

DID YOU HAVE THE SENSE THE TENNESSEE ADVANCED THIS LAW IN ORDER TO GET IT BEFORE THE COURT THINKING THAT THIS WOULD PERHAPS LEAD TO A NATIONWIDE BAN?

REALLY WHAT I'M WONDERING IS WHY WAS GENDER AFFIRMING CARE FOR MINORS SUCH AN EMERGENCY THAT THE STATE FELT THAT THEY HAD TO ACT IS SO EXPEDITIOUSLY TO BAN IT.

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS STRATEGIC ON THE PART OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE SEPARATELY THERE IS A HUGE MOVEMENT AND IT IS A COORDINATED MOVEMENT TO PASS LEGISLATION RESTRICTING OR OUT RIGHT BANNING GENDER AFFIRMING CARE FOR BOTH CHILDREN AND ADULTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

IT IS NO ACCIDENT THAT MORE THAN HALF THE STATES HAVE PASSED SOME SORT OF LEGISLATION IN THIS AREA JUST IN THE LAST THREE YEARS.

THINK ABOUT IT IT IS LIKE AN EPIDEMIC OF THESE BILLS.

SO YEAH, THE GOAL IS VERY MUCH TO MAKE A NATIONWIDE BAN AND WHETHER IT ULTIMATELY TAKES THE FORM OF A FEDERAL BAN OR JUST A COLLECTION OF DIFFERENT BUT SIMILAR STATE BANDS, WE DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T KNOW THAT NECESSARILY THERE IS AN ARTICULATED GOAL EXCEPT TO MAKE IT AS DIFFICULT AS PART BEFORE TRANSGENDER AMERICANS TO ACCESS CARE.

>> I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN WHY YOU THINK NOW.

THE ESTIMATES THAT WE CEASE OF OUR SUGGEST THAT MAYBE 1% OF THE POPULATION IN THE UNITED STATES IDENTIFIES AS TRANSGENDER.

WE TALK ABOUT YOUTH, MAYBE ONE POINT OH PERCENT.

>> ACTUALLY IT IS AN EVEN TINIER MINORITY IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

IF YOU TALK ABOUT CHILDREN, LET'S BE SUPER GENEROUS IN COLLEGE 1 1/2 PERCENT BUT ONLY A TINY FRACTION SOMEWHERE AROUND THE 10% OF THAT 1% ACTUALLY'S WEEK MEDICAL TRANSITION.

SO WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT A PRETTY SMALL MINORITY WHICH MAKES IT A PERFECT MINORITY TO SCAPEGOAT.

>> BUT WHY, WHAT IS THE POINT?

>> I THINK THE POINT IS IS THERE AND WE CAN SAY ON THE VERY SURFACE LEVEL THAT AUTOCRATS ASPIRING AUTOCRATS ALWAYS TARGET MINORITIES ALWAYS DESIGNATE SMALL MINORITIES AS THE ENEMY BUT I THINK THERE IS MORE TO IT THAN THAT.

THERE REALLY PLAYING INTO REAL ANXIETIES.

THE BIGGEST FEAR THAT ANY PARENT HAS IS THAT THEIR CHILD WILL TURN INTO A STRANGER AND SAID THIS ANXIETY THAT HAS REALLY PERMEATED THE CULTURE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND WE HAVE SEEN TRUMP TALK ABOUT THIS A LOT AND TO GREAT EFFECT.

YOUR CHILD WILL GO TO SCHOOL THEY WILL PUT WARM SURGERY THEY COME BACK WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT THEY LEFT A GIRL THEY CAME BACK A BOY OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND I MEAN THESE ARE COMPLETELY FANTASTICAL SCENARIOS IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT BUT IT REFLECTS THAT FEAR.

IT REFLECTS WHAT EVERY PARENTS WORST NIGHTMARE.

AND OF COURSE THE BARRAGE OF TRUMP ADS BEFORE THE ELECTION THAT WE ARE FOR YOU, KAMALA IS FOR DAY, THEM .

THIS IS THE STRANGER, THIS IS THE OTHER, THIS IS THE OTHER THAT IS ENCROACHING ON YOUR FAMILY ON YOUR COMMUNITY ON YOUR POLITICS.

IT IS EFFECTIVE BECAUSE THERE IS REAL HERE THERE IS ANXIETY THAT THE WAY WE ORGANIZE THE WORLD WHICH IS BY GENDER, BY AGE IS GETTING COMPLETELY OFFENDED.

>> YOU HAD SOME INTERESTING THINGS TO SAY ABOUT HOW THIS IS ALSO SO ABOUT A KIND OF LOATHING OR RESISTANCE TO EXPERTISE.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT, WHY YOU SAY THAT.

>> I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE REALLY SAW IN THE SUPREME COURT HEARING.

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AN PROTECTION CLAUSE HEARING SO IT WAS ALSO SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT WHETHER IT IS SEX DISCRIMINATION BUT IN FACT THE JUSTICES KEPT GOING BACK AND THIS IS TRUE FOR BOTH CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL JUSTICES, THEY KEPT GOING BACK TO THE MERITS OF THE CARE IT SELF.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT'S QUITE EXTRAORDINARY BECAUSE THE JUSTICE, THEY KEPT BOTH SIDES CONSIDER GETTING LOST IN THE WEEDS.

THEY CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PUBERTY BLOCKERS AND HORMONE TREATMENT, NOR SHOULD THEY, THEY ARE JUSTICES, THEY ARE NOT DOCTORS BUT, DOCTORS, EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ASSOCIATION INCLUDING EVERY SINGLE PEDIATRIC ASSOCIATION IN THIS COUNTRY FILED AT THIS BRIEF WITH THE SUPREME COURT ARGUING THAT THIS BEEN IS HARMFUL.

THAT CHILDREN SHOULD, SOME CHILDREN SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO GENDER AFFIRMING CARE THAT IT IS CORRECT, IT IS A NEED AND IN SOME CASES LIFESAVING.

THE FACT THAT JUSTICES ON BOTH SIDES THINK NOTHING OF, INSTEAD OF SINGLE CABLE THE DOCTOR SAY THIS IS NECESSARY, WHAT IS THE STATE'S COMPELLING INTEREST IN GOING AGAINST MEDICAL EXPERTISE, INSTEAD OF POSING THE QUESTION LIKE THAT, THEY STARTED DEBATING THE MERITS OF THE ACTUAL CARE OH, THEIR HARMS ON BOTH SIDES, WHERE PEOPLE REGRETTED HER WHAT IF THEY COMMIT SUICIDE, BOTH THINGS ARE DANGEROUS.

WE HAVE ACTUAL EXPERTS OR THAT AND I THINK THIS IS A REAL SYMPTOM OF THE TIMES.

OUR SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES NOT ONLY HAVING OPINIONS IN CONTRAVENTION'S, IT HAS OTHER CONTEMPT FOR EXPERTISE, THAT IS A VERY TRUMP KIND OF THING.

WE DON'T NEED EXPERTS IN GOVERNMENT, WE KNOW EVERYTHING THAT WE NEED TO KNOW WE CAN MAKE ALL OF THE DECISIONS.

>> YOU ARE A PARENT YOURSELF, AND OTHER CASES WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE COME FROM MARGINALIZED BACKGROUND, IF YOU ARE AFRICAN- AMERICAN AND YOU HAVE AFRICAN- AMERICAN KIDS YOU KNOW THE ROPES, YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE AFRICAN-AMERICAN, NOT THAT MANY TRANS KIDS HAVE TRANSPARENT.

DO YOU EVER HAVE ANY SYMPATHY FOR THEM TRYING TO SAY, THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE ALLOW ADULTS TO DO THAT WE DON'T ALLOW KIDS TO DO AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU HAVE ANY SYMPATHY FOR THOSE WHO SAY WHEN IT COMES TO KIDS, WE NEED TO SLOW OUR ROLE.

>> I DO HAVE A LOT OF SYMPATHY FOR PARENTS WHO ARE DEALING WITH KIDS WHO REQUIRE A LOT OF SORT OF NEW UNDERSTANDING.

IS PROBABLY A MUCH MORE COMMON EXPERIENCE.

MY CHILDREN ARE NOT TRANS OR REALLY QUEER AS FAR AS I CAN TELL AND YET SOMETIMES THEY ARE TOTAL STRANGERS TO ME AND I THINK THAT IS EVERYBODY'S EXPERIENCE.

I THINK THE FEAR THAT YOU WILL NOT SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE AS YOUR CHILD THAT YOU WILL NOT EXIST IN THE SAME CULTURE AS HER CHILD THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HELP YOUR CHILD THROUGH THE MOST DIFFICULT OR CHALLENGING MOMENTS IN LIFE THERE IS A UNIVERSAL PARENTAL HERE BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS CASE IS ABOUT.

THIS CASE IS ABOUT THE STATE DECIDING AND OVERWRITING PARENTAL DECISIONS.

THE TRAGEDY OF THIS PARTICULAR CASE IS THAT THE SUPREME COURT REFUSES TO HEAR THIS PART OF THE ARGUMENT.

SO IN EFFECT, THE SUPREME COURT SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW YOU TO QUESTION WHETHER THE STATE HAS A RIGHT TO OVERRIDE PARENTAL OR MEDICAL DECISIONS.

EXERCISING THAT RIGHT.

THAT GRANTING OF THE RIGHT TO THE STATE TO OVERRIDE THE DECISIONS I THINK IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING.

>> DO YOU KNOW HOW QUESTION WAS SEPARATED FROM THIS CASE ARE THAT THE COURT DECIDED NOT TO TAKE UP THE QUESTION AND THE REASON IT IS SO INTRIGUING, PARENTAL RIGHTS HAS BEEN A BIG CRY FOR THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT.

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE SUPREME COURT, WE DON'T KNOW.

THE SUPREME COURT RARELY BOTHERS TO TELL US WHY IT IS TAKING UP A CASE OR WHY IT IS NOT TAKING UP A CASE WRITES NOT TAKING UP ONE ARGUMENT FOR THE OTHER.

WE ARE JUST LEFT TO DEAL WITH THIS BACK TO THE FACT THAT THE SUPREME COURT LET STAND THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION THAT PROJECTS THE DUE PROCESS ARGUMENT.

THE BANNER UNDER WHICH CONSERVATIVES HAVE MARCHED IN THIS COUNTRY BUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE CASE OF TENNESSEE IS THAT STATE LEGISLATORS, MOST OF WHOM, POSSIBLY NONE OF THEM ARE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS OR KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TRANS CARE HAVE DECIDED THIS PARTICULAR KIND OF MEDICAL TREATMENT SHOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE UNDER 18 REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEIR PARENTS AND DOCTORS THINK IN THE SUPREME COURT ALREADY LET THAT STAND.

>> YOUR WRITTEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE WONDERING, WELL THIS DOESN'T AFFECT ME IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT IT IS, THAT THIS HAS BROUGHT HER RESIDENCE THEN SIMPLY ABOUT TRANS CARE PER SE, COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> TWO THINGS THAT WE CAN ALREADY TAKE AWAY FROM THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THERE IS A LOT MORE IN THE LARGER BATTLE AGAINST TRANS RIGHTS.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE WE HAVE THE STATE OVERWRITING DOCTORS AND PARENTS THEN WE HAVE JUSTICES BASICALLY SAYING THAT MEDICAL EXPERTISE DOESN'T MATTER.

AND THESE ARE TWO THINGS THAT I THINK ARE INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS AND I'M GOING TO USE THE WORD NOT IN A JUDICIAL SENSE BUT IN A SORT OF VERNACULAR SENSE IT SAYS A HORRIBLE PRECEDENT TO ESTABLISHING CONTEMPT FOR EXPERTISE AS OUR BASELINE.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE DOCTORS SAY, THE JUSTICE KNOWS BETTER BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SUPREME COURT WHICH DOES NOT MAKE THEM DOCTORS AND DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND TRANS RIGHTS.

THE OTHER ARGUMENT I HAVE BEEN MAKING ABOUT THE BATTLE AGAINST TRANS RIGHTS IN GENERAL IS THAT IT IS LARGELY A QUESTION OF REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

IF YOU LISTEN TO THE ARGUMENT THAT THE PROPONENTS OF THESE BANDS MAKE, ONE OF THE STRONGEST ARGUMENTS, ONE OF THE LEADING ARGUMENTS RATHER IS THAT CHILDREN, TEENAGERS ASSIGNED FEMALE AT BIRTH SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT MIGHT LATER RENDER THEM INFERTILE AND THIS IS, IT PROBABLY DOESN'T RENDER THEM INFERTILE BUT EVEN IF IT DID, WE ARE TALKING, THE FACT THAT THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE BIGGEST POINT THAT THEY MAKE SHOULD REALLY MAKE ALL WOMEN AND ALL SUPPORTERS OF ABORTION RIGHTS SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION.

BECAUSE THIS IS MEN WHO ARE DECIDING WHETHER AND WHEN PEOPLE REPRODUCE.

THIS IS PART OF A MUCH LARGER FRAMEWORK OF THOUGHT AND FRAMEWORK OF LAW AT THIS POINT.

>> WHAT SENSE DID YOU GET WHEN YOU AS HE SAT THROUGH THE ARGUMENT AND HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU LAUGH?

IT IS NOT JUST AN INTELLECTUAL ARGUMENT FOR YOU.

>> IT IS NOT JUST AN INTELLECTUAL ARGUMENT, I'M OBVIOUSLY NOT A CHILD IN FACT MY CHILDREN ARE GROWN BUT I AM TRANS, I KNOW THAT THESE BANDS ON MEDICAL TREATMENT FOR CHILDREN WILL PROLIFERATE AND WILL PROBABLY TURN INTO BANDS FOR ADULTS OR AT LEAST GREATER AND GREATER RESTRICTIONS FOR ADULT.

I'M OBVIOUSLY CONCERNED ABOUT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS CARE AND THIS IS CARE, NOT FOR SOMEBODY MY AGE WITH MY MEDICAL HISTORY IT IS NOT JUST GENDER AFFIRMING CARROT IS ACTUALLY HEALTHCARE THAT I NEED TO SURVIVE AND INTELLECTUALLY I FELT DIMINISHED.

THERE IS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE SUPREME COURT THAT I DON'T THINK WE HAVE REALLY TALKED ABOUT ENOUGH BECAUSE THERE IS SUCH A STRONG TENDENCY THE TO NORMALIZE ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY BECOME NORMAL.

TWO OF THEM REALLY MUCH LESS QUALIFIED, MUCH LESS INTELLECTUALLY RIGOROUS THAN THE STANDARD HAD BEEN IN THE SUPREME COURT AND I THINK WE ARE SAYING THAT I THINK IT'S NOT THE ONLY REASON WE ARE SEEING WHAT WE ARE SEEING BUT I THINK WE ARE SEEING A KIND OF MORAL AND INTELLECTUAL DIMINISH, THE ONLY REAL SEARCHING THAT I HAVE OBSERVED IN THE COURT WAS WHEN JUSTICE JACKSON WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THE CASE THAT SHE WAS SEEING IN THIS, WHETHER THOSE PARALLELS HELP AND YOU COULD SEE THAT SHE WAS STRUGGLING INTELLECTUALLY AND MORALLY WITH THE ARGUMENT THAT SHE WAS HEARING ON BOTH SIDES YOU CAN SEE THAT THROUGH THE REST OF THE PROCEEDINGS.

THREE HOURS OF ARGUMENTS AND QUESTIONS AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS A KIND OF NARROWING KIND OF DIMINISHMENT THAT IN THIS CASE WE ARE ALMOST CERTAINLY GOING TO LEAD TO LOSS OF RIGHT.

>> MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME IT IS ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP TO OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE.