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HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THE GRIM REALITY IN GAZA AS DESPERATION, DEATH AND HUNGER SOAR.
PHILIPPE LAZZARINI, HEAD OF THE RELIEF AGENCY UNRWA JOINS ME ON WHAT HE CALLS A DYSTOPIAN WAR.
>> OF COURSE I'M TERRIFIED FOR HIM.
I'M AFRAID THAT PART OF HIM WILL BREAK.
>> THE KREMLIN'S TEENAGE CRACKDOWN.
WE BRING YOU A REPORT ON THE YOUNGEST RUSSIANS FACING PROSECUTION FOR POLITICAL DISSENT.
THEN -- >> THE TITLE HAS TO DO WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF IMAGINING ANOTHER LIFE.
>> "ALL WE IMAGINE IS LIGHT."
HER NEW FILM ON INDIAN WOMEN NAVIGATING LIFE AND LOVE THAT IS DAZZLING VIEWERS.
PLUS -- >> I'M SO HOMESICK.
I SAID STOP WHINING.
IF YOU CAN'T GO TO DAMASCUS, MAKE DAMASCUS.
>> THE SYRIAN ARCHITECT MOHAMAD HAFEZ TALKED GOING THE YEARS SPENT.
>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
EMERGENCY MEETINGS ARE UNDERWAY ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST.
U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN HAS BEEN IN JORDAN MEETING KING ABDULLAH AS THE REGION GRAPPLES WITH THE SUDDEN FALL OF THE ASSAD REGIME IN SYRIA.
IN ISRAEL, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN MET WITH PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND SAID THE UNITED STATES IS TRYING TO CLOSE A HOSTAGE CEASE-FIRE DEAL.
AND HE ALSO SENT THIS POINTED MESSAGE TO HIS HOSTS.
>> WE HAVE VIEWED VARIOUS CRITICAL POINTS OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST 15 MONTHS AS MOMENTS WERE NOT ENOUGH WITH GETTING IN TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE HAD WHAT THEY NEEDED TO SURVIVE, AND WE MADE NO BONES ABOUT PRESSING ON THAT.
BECAUSE WE THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, FEEDING STARVING CHILDREN DOES NOT HARM THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
BUT IT DOES VINDICATE OUR COMMON, SHARED VALUES OF HUMANITY.
>> NOW, LAST NIGHT, THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY DEMANDED AN IMMEDIATE UNCONDITIONAL AND PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.
AND ALSO, CONDEMNED A NEW LAW IN ISRAEL THAT WILL BAN THE OPERATIONS OF THE RELIEF AGENCY UNRWA.
THE HEAD OF UNRWA, PHILIPPE LAZZARINI IS ON A TOUR OF CAPITAL THAT'S SUPPORT THE AGENCY'S WORK TRYING TO GET THAT BAN REVERSED AND HE JOINED ME HERE IN THE STUDIO.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOU ARE IN LONDON AS PART OF YOUR MEETING WITH MAJOR DONORS, THE GOVERNMENT, ALSO, YOU'RE TRYING TO GET SUPPORTERS TO GET ISRAEL TO REVERSE THE BAN ON YOUR OPERATIONS.
IS THAT RIGHT?
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
THE FIRST OBJECTIVE FOR US IS TO REVERSE THE BAN, TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS NOT IMPLEMENTED, BECAUSE IF IT IS IMPLEMENTED, IT WOULD ALSO MEAN THE END OF THE UNRWA OPERATION IN GAZA BUT ALSO EAST JERUSALEM AND THE WEST BANK.
AS WE KNOW, WE HAVE A MAJOR OPERATION IN GAZA.
WE HAVE TO SCALE UP OUR EFFORT INSTEAD OF FURTHER WEAKENING OUR COLLECTIVE RESPONSE TO THE PEOPLE IN GAZA.
>> WE'RE HEARING JUST THE MOST AWFUL STORIES CONTINUOUSLY.
THE STARVATION.
EVERY DAY, THE KILLING.
WE SHOW THE PICTURES AND WE SHOW FAMILIES MOURNING THERE.
MANY, MANY KIDS.
YOU KNOW, ISRAEL SAYS THEY'RE GOING OFF AS WELL.
THERE ARE MANY CHILDREN BEING KILLED.
IF YOU'RE NOT OFFICIALLY ABLE TO ENTER OR OPERATE, I KNOW YOU HAVE PEOPLE THERE, WHAT ARE THEY SEEING ON THE GROUND?
YOUR WORKERS, YOUR EMPLOYEES?
>> THE STORIES ARE ABSOLUTELY -- I JUST HAD OUR STAFF CONSULATE WHO WENT TOGETHER.
FOR FOUR WEEKS HAVE INTERVIEWED 2,000 OF OUR STAFF AND BASICALLY, THEY WERE SHARING THEIR STORIES, THEY'RE HEARTBREAKLING.
FOR EXAMPLE, STAFF MEMBERS SAYING I LOST 30 KILOS.
WE ARE HUNGRY AND WE ARE EATING ANIMAL FODDER.
>> EVEN STAFF MEMBERS.
>> EVEN STAFF MEMBERS.
>> IF THAT'S THE CASE FOR THEM, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE ORDINARY FAMILIES, CHILDREN, WOMEN?
>> THAT MEANS HUNGER IS A REAL REALITY OF IT IS DEEPENING IN GAZA.
YOU KNOW, IN SEPTEMBER, WE COULDN'T REACH 1 MILLION PEOPLE.
1.4 MILLION PEOPLE IN OCTOBER.
1.7 MILLION PEOPLE IN NOVEMBER.
HUNGER IS DEEPENING.
>> SO THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER HAS BEEN AND IS IN JERUSALEM.
THEY'RE TRYING TO WORK ON A CEASE-FIRE AND A HOSTAGE DEAL.
HE DID SAY A NUMBER OF THINGS INCLUDING A POINTED MESSAGE THAT FEEDING THE STARVING IN GAZA DOES NOT HARM ISRAEL'S SECURITY.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT MESSAGE ISN'T GETTING THROUGH?
>> I THINK THE MESSAGE IS NOT GETTING THROUGH BECAUSE THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EMPATHY.
BECAUSE THE WAR IN GAZA IS THE FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM.
BASICALLY, THE SUFFERING OF THE PEOPLE IN GAZA CANNOT REALLY BE FELT.
I WOULD SAY THE EXACT OPPOSITE WOULD GO AGAINST THE SECRETARY OF ISRAEL IF WE KEEP PEOPLE STARVING IN GAZA, IT CAN ONLY DEEPEN RESENTMENT AND FUTURE PROBLEMS IN THE REGION.
>> CAN WE TALK ABOUT WHY YOU'RE BANNED, THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM AND I WILL GET THIS RIGHT AND CORRECT.
ISRAEL FROM THE BEGINNING HAS ESSENTIALLY ACCUSED UNRWA OF HAVING STAFF MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT ONLY PART AND TOOLS OF HAMAS BUT SOME WHO TOOK PART IN THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRE.
YOU KNOW THIS.
YOU'VE DONE INVESTIGATIONS.
YOU'VE LAID CERTAIN PEOPLE OFF.
HAVE YOU HAD ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT CHARGE?
>> WE HAD AN INVESTIGATION FROM THE INTERNAL UNITED NATIONS.
THE NOT COULD COLLUSIONS WERE SHARED AT THE END OF JULY.
THE CONCLUSION WAS, IF THE INFORMATION IS AUTHENTICATED, THIS MIGHT CONTRIBUTE TO INDEED A CRIMINAL CHARGE.
THE CONCLUSION FOR THE AGENCY HAS BEEN THAT ALL THE STAFF HAS BEEN DISMISSED AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY CLEAR.
IF ANY OF THEM HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THE MASSACRE OF OCTOBER 7th, THIS WOULD BE A TERRIBLE BETRAYAL TO THE UNITED NATIONS.
BETRAYAL TO THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITIES, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE CRIMINALLY INVESTIGATED.
>> JUST TO BE CLEAR FOR ME.
DID THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES PRESENT YOU WITH EVIDENCE THAT IS INCONTROVERTIBLE?
>> NO.
WE HAVE ALLEGATION.
MOST RECENTLY WE RECEIVED AT LEAST 100 STAFF MEMBERS.
WE KEEP ASKING FOR SUBSTANTIATED INFORMATION TO OPEN INVESTIGATION BUT WE HAVE NEVER, EVER RECEIVED THIS INFORMATION EVEN TO ALLOW THE U.N. TO OPEN AN INVESTIGATION.
>> MEANTIME, YOU HAVE SAID THAT THERE IS A DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN BEING WAGED AGAINST UNRWA.
AGAINST YOU IN THE UNITED STATES.
YOU SAID THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS PLACED BILLBOARDS IN CITIES AROUND THE WORLD CALLING FOR UNRWA TO BE ELIMINATED.
WE HAVE VIDEO.
HERE'S ONE OF THEM.
AND THIS IS FROM A POST AT THE OFFICIAL INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT OF THE CONSULATE GENERAL OF ISRAEL IN NEW YORK, AS YOU CAN SEE, IT BASICALLY SAYS PAY COLLECTION FOR TERRORISTS OR HUMANITARIAN AID.
UNRWA HAS ALTERNATIVES.
IT MUST BE REPLACED.
IS THIS DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN WORKING?
HAVE YOU SEEN A DROP-OFF OF FUNDING OR SUPPORTING?
>> WE HAVE SEEN A RESUMPTION OF FUNDING OVER THE LAST YEAR, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE NUMBER OF ACTION BEING TAKEN BY THE AGENCY, AFTER THE INVESTIGATION, BUT ALSO, AFTER A NUMBER OF REVIEWS.
THE BIG EXCEPTION BEING THE UNITED STATES.
AS WE RIGHTLY SAID, THERE ARE EFFORTS AND BROAD MOBILIZATION WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO DELEGITIMIZE THE ORGANIZATION.
THE REAL REASON, CHRISTIANE, BEHIND THIS, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SITUATION WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION.
IT IS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.
IT IS TO STRIP THE PALESTINIAN FROM THE REFUGEES AND ULTIMATELY THROUGH THIS, THERE IS A BELIEF IN ISRAEL THAT THEY WILL FIX ONCE FOR ALL THE ISSUE OF THE RIGHT OF RETURN.
>> SO I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE.
THE IDEA THAT UNRWA HAS THE WORD REFUGEE IN ITS ACRONYM.
AND PEOPLE WHO WANT TO STRIP THAT TITLE SAY HOW CAN YOU HAVE REFUGEES GENERATION AFTER GENERATION?
THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT REFUGEES.
THESE AREN'T CAMPS.
THEY ARE BRICKS AND MORTAR AND CONCRETE BUILDINGS IN GAZA AND ELSEWHERE.
>> YOU CAN BE A REFUGEE FROM ONE GENERATION TO ANOTHER GENERATION UNTIL YOU LOSE A STATE.
LOOK AT AFGHANISTAN.
LOOK AT SOMALIA.
PEOPLE ARE REFUGEES FOR A NUMBER OF DECADES.
IF TODAY, PALESTINIANS ARE STILL REFUGEES, IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF UNRWA.
IT IS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF A POLITICAL SOLUTION WHICH HAS ADDRESSED THEIR FATE.
>> WOULD YOU SAY IF THEY WANT TO GET RID OF UNRWA, IT HAS TO BE BECAUSE AS A STATE AND A POLITICAL SOLUTION?
>> IF YOU WANT TO GET RID OF UNRWA, YOU HAVE TO GENERALLY BE COMMITTED TO A POLITICAL SOLUTION, TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, TO HAVE A POLITICAL PATH WAY, AND UNRWA CAN BECOME AGAIN THIS TEMPORARY ORGANIZATION DELIVERING CRITICAL SERVICES TO THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES AND HANDING OVER ITS ACTIVITIES TO A FUTURE STATE OF PALESTINE OR EMPOWERED INSTITUTION.
>> AS I SAID, ISRAEL ACCUSES UNRWA OF BEING INFILTRATED BY HAMAS.
MEANWHILE, HAMAS HAS REPEATEDLY AND PUBLICLY ACCUSED OF ISRAEL WITH THE OCCUPATION.
YOU SAID IT IN DOHA AS WELL.
HOW CAN HUMANITARIAN CARE SUCCEED IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS?
>> AS YOU SAID, THERE HAVE BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF OUR HUMAN RIGHT CURRICULUM IN OUR SCHOOLS.
THEY HAVE BEEN VERY CRITICAL TO OUR CONDUCT OF PROMOTING GENDER EQUALITY.
THEY ARE VERY CRITICAL OF OUR SUMMER CAMPS WHERE WE BRING GIRLS AND BOYS TOGETHER FOR SPORT, ART, AND MAKE.
BUT AGAIN, WE ARE A CASUALTY OF THIS WAR.
THE REAL REASON WHY ISRAEL WANTS UNRWA TO BE ELIMINATED IS BECAUSE OF POLITICAL REASON.
WE KEEP HEARING ABOUT THE ORDER OF THE BILLS THAT THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY IN ONE GENERATION TO PUT AN END TO THE VICTIMHOOD AND TO PUT AN END TO THE REFUGEE STATE.
IT ALL TRICKLES DOWN TO THE RIGHT OF RETURN.
>> I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.
WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE TERRAIN IN GAZA.
WE CANNOT GET IN BUT WE KNOW FROM PEOPLE INSIDE THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE MOO HERE, YOU CAN'T MOVE THERE.
THERE ARE LINES THAT CROSS.
THE CORRIDOR, ET CETERA.
THE NORTH IS BARELY APPROACHABLE BY ANYBODY EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL, ET CETERA.
WHAT DO YOUR WORKERS SAY IS ACTUALLY GOING ON ON THE GROUND?
I ASK YOU BECAUSE THE PERSON WHO I'M SURE YOU KNOW OF, FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER UNDER THE LIKUD GOVERNMENT, HAS CRITICIZED THESE FORCED DISPLACEMENTS, THESE FORCED SITUATIONS, SAID THERE IS ETHNIC CLEANSING GOING ON, POLITICIANS ORDERING IT.
WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE SEEING ON THE GROUND THERE?
DO YOU THINK THAT'S CORRECT?
>> BY ANY ACCOUNT, FACTS ON THE GROUND INDICATE THAT THE REASON FOR DISPLACEMENT.
WE HAVE TODAY, FOR EXAMPLE, 50 TO 70,000 PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDER A VERY TIGHT SIEGE IN NORTH GAZA.
THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING PUSHED OUT FURTHER SOUTH.
WE HAVE ABOUT 200,000 PEOPLE REMAINING IN GAZA CITY WHICH WAS THE MAIN CITY INTO GAZA STRIP.
THE REST OF THE POPULATION HAS BEEN PUSHED FURTHER SOUTH.
THE NORTH OF GAZA SEEMS TO BE NO LAND ANYMORE FOR THE PALESTINIAN.
EVEN IF THERE IS NO INTENT TO DECLARE POLICIES, FACTS ON THE GROUND INDICATE THAT INDEED, THERE HAS BEEN FORCED DISPLACEMENT OF THE POPULATION.
>> IF THERE IS A CEASE-FIRE, AS EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO GET, AT LEAST BEFORE THE INAUGURATION, MAYBE EVEN BEFORE CHRISTMAS, HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE, AND APPARENTLY BEING RAISED AS POTENTIALLY A LIMITED CEASE-FIRE, CERTAIN PRISONERS GET A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HUMANITARIAN AID IN, HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE GIVEN THE CATASTROPHIC WHOLE OF AID TO RAMP UP?
HOW QUICKLY DO YOU THINK YOU CAN RAMP UP TO AT LEAST THE CALORIES AND NEEDS OF PEOPLE'S DAILY LIVING?
>> I THINK WE CAN QUICKLY RAMP UP.
WHAT WE NEED IS SUSTAINED UNINTERRUPTED ACCESS.
AS YOU KNOW, TODAY WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH THE PROBLEM OF THE LAWLESSNESS INTO THE GAZA STRIP.
THERE IS A LOT OF ANARCHY GOING ON.
OUR CONVOYS ARE SUBJECTED TO ATTACK FROM THE ORGANIZED GROUP.
>> IS THIS HAMAS OR GANGSTERS?
>> THESE ARE EMERGING, ARMED FAMILIES, ARMED GROUP OF CRIMINAL GANG -- >> BECAUSE OF THE VACUUM?
>> BECAUSE OF THE VACUUM.
ABSOLUTELY.
AND WE HAD LAST NIGHT AGAIN ONE OF THESE INCIDENTS WHERE A CONVOY OF 70 TRUCKS HAS BEEN ENTIRELY LOOTED.
AND THIS WAS A COMBINATION OF DESPERATE PEOPLE WHO LOOTED THE TRUCKS BUT ALSO OF THE ARMED GROUP BEING PRESENT.
>> THE ISRAELIS DON'T HELP YOU?
YOU KNOW, DELIVER SECURITY?
>> THERE WAS A TRAGEDY UNFORTUNATELY, INTERVENTION, A DRONE AT THE CROWD, AND 25 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.
>> THAT WAS BEFORE THE SO-CALLED FLOWER MASSACRE?
>> NO.
IT'S A REPEAT OF THE FLOWER MASSACRE.
MORE THAN 100 PEOPLE WERE REPORTED KILLED.
THIS WAS A FEW MONTHS AGO.
YESTERDAY, IT WAS A SIMILAR INCIDENT THAN THE FLOWER MASSACRE WHICH HAPPENED WITH MORE THAN 2,500 PEOPLE KILLED AND TENS HAVE BEEN INJURED.
>> IT'S JUST SO AWFUL.
THE FACT THAT WE CAN'T GET THERE ON THE GROUND TO BE ABLE TO REPORT IT OURSELVES IS VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING.
YOU TALKED AT THE BEGINNING ABOUT A LACK OF EMPATHY ON ALL SIDES TO END THIS.
IN DOHA THIS LAST WEEKEND, I WAS ON A PANEL IN WHICH I WAS INTERVIEWING THE QATARI FOREIGN MINISTER, THE INDIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, AND THE NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER.
HE AND THE OTHERS TALKED ABOUT A DOUBLE STANDARD WHEN IT COMES TO EMPATHY OR CRITICISM OF THE VARIOUS BREACHES OF INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS AND HUMANITARIAN LAW THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND THE WORLD.
HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.
>> THE PROBLEM NOW IS THAT WE HAVE ONE PART OF THE WORLD WHO IS HIGHLIGHTING CORRECTLY RUSSIA'S VIOLATIONS OF UKRAINE SOVEREIGNTY.
AND THEN YOU HAVE ANOTHER PART OF THE WORLD WHO ARE CORRECTLY CRITICIZING ISRAEL AND GAZA BUT RATHER WOBBLY ON THE PRINCIPLES THAT HAVE BEEN VIOLATED IN UKRAINE.
AND I WOULD PROBABLY SAY THAT I STAND UP FOR THE PRINCIPLES IN BOTH CASES.
I WILL DEMAND BEHAVIOR OF RUSSIA AND UKRAINE AND I WILL DEMAND COMPLIANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW IN GAZA.
>> THERE IS A DEEP, DEEP FEELING IN THE ARAB WORLD BUT ALSO IN THE SOUTH THAT THERE IS INDEED A DOUBLE STANDARD WHEN IT COMES TO THE APPLICATION OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, AND THAT THE MAJOR EXCEPTION TODAY IS ISRAEL.
BASICALLY, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN GAZA IS A CROSSING OF ALL THE POSSIBLE RED LINES.
A TOTAL DISREGARD FOR THE INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW TO THE RISK THAT IT IS ALMOST BECOMING IRRELEVANT.
BUT THE FEELING IN THE REGION IS THAT IN FACT, DEPENDING ON THE TIME OF LIFE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, IT MATTERS MORE THAN OTHER LIVES.
>> VERY BRIEFLY, IF THAT BAN IS UPHELD, IT COMES INTO EFFECT AT THE END OF JANUARY, BEGINNING OF FEBRUARY.
WHAT HAPPENS ON THE GROUND?
>> THAT WOULD BE A TOTAL DISASTER.
NOT ONLY WOULD IT WEAKEN OUR COLLECTIVE EFFORT TO RESPOND TO EXTRAORDINARY HUMAN NEED IN GAZA BUT IT WOULD ALSO DEPRIVE ONCE THE CEASE-FIRE IS IN PLACE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF GIRLS AND BOYS LIVING CURRENTLY IN THE RUBBLE, DEEPLY TRAUMATIZED TO GO BACK IN A LEARNING ENVIRONMENT.
BECAUSE WHEN WE SAY THAT UNRWA IS NOT REPLACEABLE, YES, IT IS REPLACEABLE.
IT IS REPLACEABLE BY A STATE, BY PUBLIC INSTITUTION, OUR ORGANIZATION IS THE ONLY ONE WHICH WAS INVESTED IN HUMAN DEVELOPMENT, PROVIDING THESE PUBLIC SERVICES.
IF WE STOP OUR ACTIVITIES, WE WOULD DENY ACCESS TO EDUCATION.
BUT WE WOULD ALSO SOW THE SEEDS IN THE REGION.
>> IT IS A REALLY TRAGIC STORY.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND TRAGICALLY, A NEW STUDY FINDS 96% OF CHILDREN IN GAZA RIGHT NOW FEAR THEIR IMMINENT DEATH.
THAT'S ACCORDING TO WAR CHILD U EVERY U.K. >>> NOW TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE WHERE RUSSIA CONTINUES TO ADVANCE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
SINCE THE FULL-SCALE INVASION IN 2022, MORE THAN 20,000 RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN DETAINED AT HOME FOR PROTESTING THAT WAR.
AS MOSCOW CRACKS DOWN ON POLITICAL DISSENT, IT ALSO JOINS A LONG LIST OF COUNTRIES SUCH AS IRAN, EGYPT, ISRAEL AND MANY MORE WHO DO HOLD CHILD PRISONERS.
RUSSIAN LAW ALLOWS THE PROSECUTION OF THOSE AS YOUNG AS 14.
AND OF COURSE, THEIR FAMILIES ARE DEEPLY FEARFUL ABOUT WHAT IS LAPPING TO THEM AND OF THE TOLL THEIR EXPERIENCE THERE'S TAKE ON THEM.
AS YOU WILL SEE NOW IN THIS REPORT FROM ALEX MARQUARDT.
>> HE WAS YOUR AVERAGE RUSSIAN TEENAGER.
A TOP STUDENT WHO ENJOYED ELECTRONICS, HE BUILT A RADIO TRANSMITTER FOR A CLASS PROJECT.
TODAY HE'S ONE OF RUSSIA'S YOUNGEST POLITICAL PRISONERS, ARRESTED AT 15 YEARS OLD AND NOW FACING FIVE YEARS IN A PENAL COLONY FOUND GUILTY ON TERRORISM CHARGES.
HE WAS ACCUSED OF JOINING A RUSSIAN PARAMILITARY GROUP FIGHTING FOR UKRAINE.
HE ADMITS, HE CONTACTED THEM BUT DENIES JOINING.
ON RUSSIA'S NATIONAL DAY IN JUNE LAST YEAR, HE STAGED A SOLO PROTEST.
POSTING ON YOUTUBE SAYING, I'M AGAINST PUTIN AND FREEDOM FOR POLITICAL PRISONERS.
NOW, HE IS ONE OF AT LEAST THREE DOZEN TEENAGERS WHO ARE JAILED IN RUSSIA FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
AMONG RUSSIA'S ALMOST 3,000 CITIZENS FACING CRIMINAL PROSECUTION ON POLITICAL GROUNDS.
HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP OVD INFO HAS TRACKED THESE CASES AND TOLD CNN THERE ARE AT LEAST 16 TEENAGERS THAT THEY KNOW OF BUT ALMOST CERTAINLY MORE WHO WERE DETAINED AFTER RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE AND THE KREMLIN DRAMATICALLY CRACKED DOWN ON DISSENT, INCLUDING BY MINORS.
WE SPOKE WITH HIS MOTHER IN RUSSIA WHO HAD PLEADED WITH HER SON NOT TO SPEAK OUT, KNOWING WHAT COULD HAPPEN.
>> Translator: OF COURSE I'M TERRIFIED FOR HIM AND I'M AFRAID THAT PART OF HIM WILL BREAK.
BUT I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE STRONG UNTIL THE END.
>> YOU SHARED SOME OF THE LETTERS THAT HE WROTE TO YOU FROM DETENTION.
IN ONE OF THEM, HE SAYS, PLEASE, I'M ASKING YOU TO DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO MAKE SURE I GET RELEASED.
I DREAM OF THE DAY WHEN I'LL BE RELEASED AND CAN HUG YOU.
HOW PAINFUL IS THAT FOR YOU AS A MOTHER TO READ THAT?
>> Translator: I CRIED BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT I AM DOING THE BEST I CAN ALREADY.
I KNEW I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING.
I HAVE ALREADY DONE AND AM DOING EVERYTHING I CAN BUT THIS IS NOT ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BE FREE.
>> IN ANOTHER LETTER, HE WROTE, YESTERDAY AFTER LIGHTS OUT, AN INMATE PUSHED ME INTO THE TOILET.
TODAY HE PUNCHED ME TWICE IN THE HEAD WHILE I WAS IN BED.
THE SITUATION IS VERY DIFFICULT.
KEVIN KNOWS ALL TOO WELL ABOUT THE BRUTALITY OF RUSSIAN PRISONS AFTER BEING ARRESTED AT 17 YEARS OLD AND SENT TO A LABOR CAMP WITH A FOUR-YEAR SENTENCE.
>> THEY HANDCUFFED MY HANDS WITH A ROPE AND STARTED TO BEAT ME.
THEY PUT OUT A CIGARETTE ON MY HAND.
THERE'S A SCAR LEFT.
>> THEY PHYSICALLY ABUSED YOU.
>> YES.
THEY ABUSED, TO TRY TO GET ANSWERS OUT OF ME.
>> HE HAD TAKEN PHOTOS OF A MILITARY BASE ACROSS FROM HIS APARTMENT BUILDING.
HE SAYS HE WANTED TO DOCUMENT HISTORY AS THE RUSSIAN MILITARY PREPARED TO INVADE UKRAINE.
PRO-REGIME MEDIA PUBLISHED THIS VIDEO OF HIS ALLEGED EQUIPMENT.
HE WAS ACCUSED OF WANTING TO SEND THE PHOTOS TO THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICES IN GERMANY WHERE HE IS ALSO A CITIZEN, BUT HE DENIES THIS.
>> MY FIRST TWO MONTHS OF IMPRISONMENT, I WAS HELD IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.
NOW WHEN I LOOK BACK, OF COURSE, IT LEFT SCARS.
A PSYCHOLOGIST TOLD ME THAT I HAVE PTSD.
>> IN PRISON HE SAID HE WAS PACKED INTO CELLS WITH OTHER INMATES AND LOST A HUGE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT.
THEN HE WAS SUDDENLY RELEASED IN AUGUST AS PART OF THE HISTORIC INTERNATIONAL PRISONER SWAM WHEN WALL STREET REPORTER AND THE U.S. MARINE WERE ALSO FREED.
IN PROTESTING PUTIN, AND HIS REGIME'S WAR IN UKRAINE, CHARGES AGAINST TEENAGERS RANGE FROM ARSON TO SABOTAGE AND TREASON.
THE YOUNGEST CASE THAT OBD INFO HAS TOLD CNN ABOUT IS OF A 14-YEAR-OLD UNNAMED GIRL ACCUSED OF DESECRATING A MILITARY SYMBOL.
IN LATE OCTOBER, OBD INFO SAYS THAT 15-YEAR-OLD WAS ARRESTED AND IS NOW BEING PROSECUTED FOR ANTI-PUTIN AND ANTI-WAR GRAFFITI.
HE LIKE BOTH KEVIN AND ARSONI ARE SUPPORTERS OF ALEXEI NAVALNY WHO DIED IN A PENAL COLONY.
HE MARCHED ALONGSIDE THE WIDOW IN A PRO DEMOCRACY DEMONSTRATION IN BERLIN JUST WEEKS AGO.
HE'S NOW EMBRACING A NEW LIFE OF ACTIVISM.
>> ALEX MARQUARDT REPORTING THERE.
AND OF NOTE, THE FEDERAL PENITENTIARY HASN'T RESPONDED TO REQUEST FOR COMMENT.
THE KREMLIN DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF ANY POLITICAL PRISONERS AT ALL.
>>> NOW IT IS AWARDS SEASON IN THE UNITED STATES.
OUR NEXT GUEST MADE HISTORY THIS WEEK BY BEING THE FIRST INDIAN FILMMAKER TO BE NOMINATED FOR A GOLDEN GLOBE FOR BEST DIRECTOR.
PAYAL KAPADIA'S BOOK, "ALL WE IMAGINE IS LIGHT", A BEAUTIFUL AND REAL IMPORTANT TRAIL OF INDIAN WOMEN NAVIGATING LIFE AND LOVE UNDER THE PATRIARCHY IN MUMBAI.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOUR FILM IS GETTING VERY, VERY POSITIVE REVIEWS AND, OF COURSE, IT WON THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT PRIZE AT CANNES, THE FILM FESTIVAL.
UP, PLEASE DON'T WAIT ANOTHER 30 YEARS TO HAVE ANOTHER INDIAN FILM.
HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WON?
>> IT WAS REALLY AMAZING MOMENT.
I WAS ALREADY SO EXCITED THAT THE FILM WAS IN COMPETITION.
SO MANY DIRECTORS WHOSE FILMS I REALLY ADMIRE AND TO BE IN COMPETITION, WE WERE ALL PINCHING OURSELVES.
TO WIN A PRIZE WAS SURREAL.
>> IN COMPETITION WITH THINGS LIKE SUBSTANCE, A WHOLE LOAD OF OTHER VERY DISTINCTLY -- ACTUALLY, WITH A FEMININE AND FEMINIST TWIST.
SO TELL ME ABOUT "ALL WE IMAGINE IS LIGHT."
WHAT DOES THE TITLE MEAN AND WHAT IN SHORT IS THE FILM ABOUT?
IT'S DIRECTLY THROUGH THE EYES OF THREE WOMEN.
>> THE TITLE HAS TO DO WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF IMAGINING ANOTHER LIFE.
ESPECIALLY IN A SOCIETY WHERE THE MODEL, SORT OF WORLD IS SO ALL-CONSUMING THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO THINK THAT THERE IS ANOTHER WAY.
IT IS ABOUT THREE WOMEN AND THE THREE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS THEY'RE IN.
TWO OF THEM WITH THEIR OWN LOVE LIVES, NOT TOGETHER.
SEPARATELY.
AND WITH ANOTHER WOMAN WHO IS FIGHTING FOR HER HOUSING.
>> DO YOU MEAN THE TRADITIONS AND THE MORES OF LIFE AND CASTE?
>> LOVE IN INDIA IS VERY POLITICAL.
>> LOVE?
>> THE QUESTION OF LOVE.
EVERYWHERE, I THINK.
BUT IN INDIA, PARTICULARLY SO.
FOR ME, ALL MY FILMS ARE ABOUT LOVE AND LONGING.
SO EVEN IN THIS ONE, I WANTED TO EXPLORE LOVE FOR THESE WOMEN.
ONE OF WHOM IS IN AN ARRANGED MARRIAGE WITH A MAN WHO HAS DISAPPEARED AND GONE TO GERMANY.
THE OTHER IS FALLING IN LOVE WITH A YOUNG MAN AND IT IS JUST THE START OF THE ROMANCE.
THERE WILL BE TROUBLE FOR THEM AHEAD.
>> YOU REALLY FEEL THE LONGING.
THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING WORD.
YOU TRANSPOSE IT TO MOST WOMEN IN YOUR COUNTRY.
WHY IS LOVE POLITICAL IN INDIA?
FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND, WHY?
>> BECAUSE IN INDIA, LOVE HAS A LOT TO DO WITH MARRIAGE AND MARRIAGE HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THE CONTROL OF THE FAMILY OF WHO YOU CAN BE WITH, WHO THEY THINK THAT YOU SHOULD BE WITH, AND THAT'S REALLY A LOT TO DO WITH IDENTITY AND CASTE AND RELIGION.
IT BECOMES A KIND OF WAY THAT THERE IS A KIND OF CONTROL OVER THE WOMAN'S LIFE AND FOR ME, THAT IS A MATTER OF CONCERN.
>> SO THERE ARE THREE WOMEN.
THE MOST, I MEAN, I'LL READ THEIR NAMES.
PRABA, THE SENIOR NURSE, THE YOUNG ONE, AND ANOTHER.
THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT GENERATIONS.
IT REALLY REVOLVES MORE AROUND THE TWO IN MY OPINION.
THE TWO NURSES, THEY SHARE A FLAT IN MUMBAI.
THEY'RE ORIGINALLY FROM THE SOUTH.
BUT BOTH VERY DIFFERENT.
I WANT TO PLAY THE CLIP THAT WE HAVE WHICH ESSENTIALLY SHOWS THE BEGINNINGS OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE YOUNG NURSE AND HER BOYFRIEND.
IT LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE ANY YOUNG COUPLE JUST TEXTING ABOUT HOW TO MEET AND WHERE TO MEET.
IN THIS CASE, YOU SAY IT'S POLITICAL.
SHE'S A HINDU AND HE IS A MUSLIM.
WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM?
>> IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION, IT'S THIS IDENTITY.
IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANY DIFFERENT IDENTITY AND WOULD IT STILL BE AN ISSUE IN INDIA.
SO IT'S REALLY KIND OF FROWNED UPON FOR THIS GIRL TO BE HAVING THIS BOYFRIEND.
>> WHY DO YOU THINK THE INDIAN, WHOEVER IT WAS, THE FILM BOARD OR WHOEVER IT WAS, A MEMBER OF IT, DECIDED NOT TO PUT IT IN.
ANOTHER INDIAN FILM IS BEING PUT IN FOR AN OSCAR FOR BEST FOREIGN FILM.
YOU MAY STILL PUT YOURSELF IN FOR DIRECTOR AND OTHER ISSUES.
THEY SAID IT IS MORE LIKE A EUROPEAN FILM SET IN INDIA THAN AN INDIAN FILM.
WHAT IS THAT MINDSET?
MUMBAI WHERE IT'S SET IS A VERY COSMOPOLITAN AND PRETTY LIBERAL BIG CITY.
>> RIGHT.
I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHY THEY SAID THAT.
IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FUNDING OF THE FILM MAYBE.
IT WAS CO-PRODUCED WITH FRANCE.
SO PERHAPS THEY HAD THE FEELING THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A FRENCH FILM OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
>> IT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE A LOVE LETTER TO MUMBAI.
TELL ME ABOUT MUMBAI AND WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CITY?
>> I HAVE A LOVE-HATE RELATIONSHIP.
IT GIVES A LOT OF POSSIBILITY, A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES TO PEOPLE.
ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN.
IT'S A CITY THAT IS MORE SAFE.
A LITTLE MORE SAFE THAN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY FOR WOMEN TO WORK LATE AT NIGHT.
THERE IS A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THAT.
THERE IS AN ATTITUDE TOWARD WORK WHICH IS MORE PROFESSIONAL.
FOR A LOT OF YOUNG WOMEN, IT IS A NICE PLACE TO COME AND YOU FEEL ANONYMOUS SOMETIMES YOU CAN AND LEAD YOUR LIFE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
>> VISUALLY, IT HAS A LOT OF LIGHT AND SHADOW.
A LOT MORE SHADOW VISUALLY.
AND IT IS RAINING A LOT.
WAS THAT PART OF THE STORY-TELLING?
>> YEAH, I DID WANT TO SHOOT THE FILM, THIS PART OF THE FILM IN THE MONSOON SEASON WHICH IS A VERY PARTICULAR TIME.
WE DON'T HAVE OTHER SEASONS.
THERE'S MONSOON AND NO MONSOON.
SUNNY.
JUST TWO SEASONS.
I FELT THAT THE MONSOON SEASON HAS THIS SORT OF STICKY, HOT FEELING WHICH FOR ME WORKED WELL WITH THE TEAMS IN THE FIRST PART OF THE FILM.
I WANTED TO FEEL CONSUMED BY THAT LIGHT SO WHEN YOU GO TO THE SECOND HALF, THERE IS A BRILLIANT SUNLIGHT WHICH CHANGES YOUR FEELINGS.
>> AND THE BEACH SCENES.
YES, IT DOES REALLY CHANGE YOUR FEELING.
AND TO AN EXTENT, THE STORY LINE AS WELL SORT OF PICKS UP PACE.
I WAS INTERESTED THAT YOU SAID ALSO, AND TO A DIFFERENT REVIEWER UP, YOU ADMIT IT IS QUITE DIFFICULT TO DEFINE THE FILM BUT WOMEN ARE ITS CENTRAL FACT.
AND HARD-WORKING MIGRANT LABOR WITH ONE OF THE LARGEST METROPOLISES.
YOU SAID PEOPLE IN NEW YORK AND PARIS IDENTIFY WITH IT.
THIS THING ABOUT HAPPENSTANCE, FEMALE FRIENDSHIPS IN SUCH PLACES SPEAKS TO EVERYBODY.
>> IN INDIA WE HAVE SEVERAL STATES.
MUMBAI BECOMES A PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO COME FROM DIFFERENT STATES AND LIVE THERE.
IT IS VERY COSMOPOLITAN IN THAT SENSE WEST DO SPEAK A LOT OF LANGUAGES.
SO IN TERMS OF LANGUAGE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, AND MUMBAI, WITH THE SCALE OF THE CITY AND HOW IT IS, I THINK IT CALLS FOR A LOT OF UNIQUE RELATIONSHIPS WHICH IS WHAT I TRIED TO EXPLORE IN THE FILM.
I FEEL THESE THREE WOMEN COULD ONLY BE FRIENDS IN A CITY LIKE MUMBAI.
>> IT IS MORE AND MORE POPULIST.
ESSENTIALLY, A HINDU NATIONALISM RUN BY THE VERY POWERFUL PRIME MINISTER.
AND IT APPEARS THAT HE HAS A LOT OF INFLUENCE.
A LOT OF JOURNALISTS NOWADAYS SAY, YOU KNOW, WE WERE SORT OF CHEERLEADING FOR THE PEOPLE IN POWER.
THEY GOT THE ELECTION WRONG.
THEY THOUGHT HE WOULD HAVE A TOTAL SUPER MAJORITY AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.
WHAT IS IT LIKE FOR A FILMMAKER TO WORK IN A PRETTY, KIND OF PRESSURE-COOKERED ENVIRONMENT?
>> I THINK IT LEADS TO MORE CREATIVE WAYS TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT.
THAT'S WHAT WE TRIED TO DO IN THIS FILM AS WELL.
ALL THE TOPICS THAT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT VERY OPENLY, IT HAS BEEN DESIGNED INTO THE NARRATIVE OF THE FILM.
YOU'LL FIND THE WAY.
>> INCLUDING THE ISSUE, THE MAIN LOVE STORY OF THE HINDU-MUSLIM LOVE STORY BETWEEN THE YOUNG LOVERS WHICH IS REALLY INTERESTING.
I WANT TO ASK BUT THE MEN.
OBVIOUSLY, HE'S THERE QUITE A LOT.
THE LOVE INTEREST.
THE OTHER MEN ARE NOT.
THE FATHERS, THE ESTRANGED HUSBANDS, ET CETERA.
AND THERE'S A REALLY STRONG PLATONIC FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN THE WOMEN.
TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU DESIGNED THAT AND WHY.
>> I WAS INTERESTED IN HAVING THESE MEN IN THE FILM WHO ARE LIKE LINGERING MEN.
THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS THERE CAUSING PROBLEMS.
THEIR ABSENCE, LIKE ONE PERSON'S HUSBAND WAS NOT THERE.
AND ANOTHER HAS NOT DONE THE PAPERWORK RIGHT SO HE'S NOT THERE.
>> AND SHE'S BEING EVICTED.
>> SHE'S BEING EVICTED.
AND THEN THE WOMAN IN THE BEGINNING OF THE FILM WHO IS HAVING DREAM OF HER DEAD HUSBAND'S GHOST COMING TO TROUBLE HER.
SO FOR ME IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THERE IS THIS SYSTEM THAT IS THE PROBLEM AND THERE ARE SOME MEN ALSO WHO SUFFER IN THE SYSTEM.
SO FOR ME IT WAS NOT TO DO, TO DIVIDE THE WORLD INTO BINARIES BUT TO QUESTION THE LARGER SOCIAL ORDER.
>> AND CONVERSELY, TO SLOW THE POWER OF FEMALE FRIENDSHIP, RIGHT?
>> YEAH.
THAT FOR ME IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
I THINK FEMALE FRIENDSHIP IS IMPORTANT EVERYWHERE.
A LOT OF TIMES IN INDIAN MAIN STREAM MEDIA, WOMEN ARE QUITE OFTEN PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER.
AND THAT'S THE MEANS OF THE THING THAT IS PUSHED AND THAT'S VERY SAD.
I THINK PEOPLE ARE THREATENED BY WOMEN BEING FRIENDS.
>> SO LET ME ASK YOU.
IT LOOKS LIKE FROM WHAT I CAN READ IN THE PRESS, THAT YOU ARE BEING PITTED AGAINST THE FEMALE DIRECTOR OF THE OTHER FILM THAT INDIA DID MAKE ITS OFFICIAL OSCAR ENTRY, RIGHT?
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?
>> PEOPLE SHOULD BE REJOICING THAT THERE ARE TWO FILMS BY FEMALE DIRECTORS.
THAT'S SO GREAT.
ISN'T THAT A WONDERFUL MOMENT?
>> YES, IT IS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> NEXT, ANOTHER CREATOR TAKING INSPIRATION FROM THEIR HOME COUNTRY, THIS SIM SYRIA.
MOHAMAD HAFEZ KREETSS REPLICAS OF DAMASCUS, CAPTURING THE BEAUTY OF THE CITY IN INTRICATE 3D MODELS.
LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE 2003, HE'S HAD TO CHANNEL HIS HOMESICKNESS AND HIS ANGUISH OVER THE DEVASTATING CIVIL WAR INTO HIS WORK.
NOW WITH BASHAR AL ASSAD GONE, HE ASKED ABOUT HIS HOPES FOR THIS MOMENT AND HOW ART HAS HELPED HIM COPE.
>> THANK YOU.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> MY PLEASURE.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> SO YOU WERE BORN IN SYRIA.
YOU SPENT SOME TIME OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
YOU'VE BEEN IN THE STATES FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR BEAUTIFUL WORK.
BEFORE WE DO, THE EVENTS OF THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS HAVE BEEN SO MOMENTOUS, SO OVERWHELMING, THINGS HAVE HAPPENED SO QUICKLY.
CAN I JUST ASK HOW YOU'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING ALL OF THIS?
>> I'M NOT SURE I HAVE A STRAIGHT ANSWER OF HOW I AM EXPERIENCING ALL OF THIS OR ANY OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS.
IT HAS BEEN INDOCTRINATED FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE IN MY HEAD TO THINK A CERTAIN WAY AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, EVERYTHING IS UP FOR GRABS.
SO I'M HAPPY FROM THE INSIDE.
I'M VERY HAPPY.
VERY OPTIMISTIC BUT ALSO VERY CAUTIOUS OF WHAT IS TO COME AND WE'RE A BIT CONCERNED OVER THE SECURITY OF THE COUNTRY AND THE LOOTING AND EVERYTHING THAT WE'VE STARTED SEEING.
SO IT'S A BIT CONCERNING.
OVERALL, JOYOUS.
OVERALL, OPTIMISTIC, OVERALL, DRIVEN, SCARED, FEELING A RUSH OF LOVE, FEELING A HUGE.
A GRATEFULNESS THAT I HAVE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO WITNESS THIS.
>> SO LET ME GO BACK.
YOU WERE BORN IN DAMASCUS.
I UNDERSTAND YOU GREW UP SOME YEARS IN SAUDI ARABIA.
THEN YOU WENT BACK TO SYRIA WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGER, AROUND 15.
IS THAT WHEN YOU REALLY STARTED TO KIND OF SEE THE CITY?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
GROWING UP IN SAUDI ARABIA WAS A GREAT CHILDHOOD.
WE KIND OF GREW UP IN A BUBBLE.
IN A COMPOUND FOR PHYSICIAN FAMILIES.
MY DAD WAS A PHYSICIAN THERE.
WE LEFT WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER TRYING TO FIND MY ROOTS.
IN 1999.
AND I WENT FROM A PRIVATE, VERY UPSCALE ACADEMY, TO THE SYRIAN REGIME HIGH SCHOOL SYSTEM WHERE I MYSELF WORE A MILITARY UNIFORM AND WAS SHOVED WITH FIVE PEOPLE ON A PLANK OF WOOD THEY CALLED THE DESK, AND WITH 50 PEOPLE TOTAL IN THE CLASSROOM.
THE TEACHERS YELLING AND SPEWING OUT RHETORIC.
BUT ALSO, GOING OUT TO THE STREETS OF DAMASCUS RIGHT AFTER THAT AND WALKING THE STREETS AND SEEING MOSQUES RIGHT NEXT TO CHURCHES, NEXT TO SYNAGOGUES, NEXT TO NUDE SCULPTURES.
A WOMAN IN A HIJAB AND THEN MOVING TO A DIFFERENT AESTHETIC.
AND I'M SEEING, WHAT IS THIS PLACE?
WHAT IS THIS COEXISTENCE?
AND THE CHURCHES WOULD GO OFF.
BELLS, AND THE CALL AND THE MERCHANTS IN THE STREET.
SO I IMMEDIATELY GOT INFATUATED WITH THAT.
I SAID, OKAY, THAT'S MY ROOTS.
THIS IS WHERE I'M FROM.
AND IT CHANGED MY ENTIRE LIFE.
SO I WASN'T THE TEENAGER THAT WAS INTERESTED IN SPORTS OR KICKING A BALL OR ANYTHING.
I WAS A TEENAGER WITH MY SKETCH BOOK IN THE STREETS OF OLD DAMASCUS JUST TAKING IT ALL IN.
>> IS THAT WHERE YOU FELL IN LOVE WITH ARCHITECTURE?
THE IDEA OF A PHYSICAL PLACE AND WHAT IT MEANS AND HOW MUCH IT CARRIES?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ARCHITECTURE IS A WAY TO TELL STORIES.
IT'S AN OLD BOOK THAT YOU WALK THROUGH.
THE FOOT PRINT OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE PHYSICAL REALM.
>> IT REALLY IS A CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION.
IT REALLY IS A PLACE THAT CONTAINS THE CENTURIES WITHIN IT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
DOORS TELL STORIES.
THERE ARE DOOR KNOBS IN SYRIA THAT ARE OLDER THAN SOME COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.
>> SO IN 2003, YOU MOVED TO THE U.S. TO STUDY ARCHITECTURE.
AT SOME POINT YOU REALIZED THAT YOU HAVE A SINGLE ENTRY VISA.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO TAKE IN THAT REALIZATION?
>> OF COURSE I REMEMBER.
I WILL NEVER FORGET THAT DAY.
A FRIEND OF MAIN HAD POINTED OUT THE MANY ENTRIES ALLOWED ON TH VISA.
I HAVE A STUDENT VISA.
I MUST BE ALLOWED TO COME AND GO.
CHECK HOW MANY.
DOES IT HAVE AN "S" OR "M"?
"S" IS FOR SINGLE.
AND SURE ENOUGH, IT SAID SINGLE.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
HE SAID, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO BACK HOME AND APPLY ALL OVER AGAIN FOR THE SAME VISA AND WAIT ALL OVER AGAIN.
YOU HAVE TO REALIZE, WE'RE A SYRIAN FAMILY THAT SENT PEOPLE TO STUDY IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1985.
MY SECURITY BACKGROUND CHECK TOOK A YEAR AND A HALF IN DAMASCUS.
NONE OF THAT MATTERED.
ALL THAT MATTERED IS THAT THIS GUY IS A MUSLIM, SYRIAN, SUDDEN YOU SAURKSD THE BUSH ERA, POST 9/11.
S, S, S, S ON THE PASSPORT.
SO I IMMEDIATELY LEARNED, I'M NOT MESSING WITH THESE PEOPLE.
I'M NOT GOING HOME.
AND SURE AS HECK, THE TRAVEL BAN AS WE KNOW IT TODAY, EXISTED BACK THEN BUT NOBODY KNEW ABOUT IT.
BUT IT FORCED US, THOSE STUDENTS, YOUNG STUDENTS, TO REGISTER WITH THE FBI EVERY TIME THEY LEFT THE CITY.
EVERY TIME WE PLANNED TO GO FROM IOWA TO CHICAGO TO VISIT.
>> THEN 2011 IS WHEN THE MASS PROTESTS STARTED AND THEN THE CIVIL WAR AS WE KNOW IT NOW.
THE CIVIL WAR STARTED.
AND THEN AGAIN, YOU REALIZE THAT YOU CAN'T GO BACK.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THAT FELT LIKE?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I WAS A YOUNG ARCHITECT.
I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH AND I OWE THEM THIS FOR THE AMAZING GROUP OF ARCHITECTS AND MY BOSS JONATHAN TRUSTED ME AS AN ARCHITECT AND GAVE ME SO MUCH TRUST TO LEAD HUGE PROJECTS AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.
HE SAID ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'RE GOING TO GO PITCH A PROJECT IN BEIRUT.
THANK YOU.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING ABOUT ME.
MY VISA IS A SINGLE VISA.
YOU SEND ME TO BEIRUT.
I HAVE TO GO TO DAMASCUS TO STAMP MY VISA AT THE EMBASSY AND I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO RUN MY SECURITY BACKGROUND CHECK.
IT TAKES YEARS.
I THINK, I THINK MY BOSSES DID NOT EVEN REALIZE WHAT WAS GOING ON.
HE'LL HAVE LAWYERS.
GO, GO.
WE PITCHED THE PROJECT IN BEIRUT.
AND I GO TO DAMASCUS AS AN AFTERMATH TO GO STAMP MY VISA.
AND THAT WAS MAY, 2011, THAT I HAD STARTED.
WE LOOKED AT IT.
AND I EVEN WAS PART OF A PROTEST THAT ERUPTED ON A FRIDAY WHEN I PRAYED IN DAMASCUS.
I WAS LIVING THAT.
I WAS SO JOYOUS.
I WAS SO HOMESICK THAT I WAS WALKING IN THE STREETS OF DAMASCUS RECORDING PEOPLE TALKING.
RECORDING THE CALLS TO PRAYERS IN SECRET.
AND PEOPLE WERE LIKE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
I WANTED TO SHOW IT.
I REALIZED, I HAD A NASTY FEELING THAT THIS IS A GIFT FROM GOD, MOHAMED.
TAKE IT ALL IN.
YOU'RE NOT SEEING THIS EVER AGAIN.
I REALLY HAD THIS FEELING INSIDE ME.
THIS IS YOUR LAST TIME.
AND THESE ARE THE RECORDINGS THAT LATER ON I BY CHANCE REMEMBERED THAT I HAD AND I STARTED USING THEM IN MY ARTWORK.
SO WHEN YOU'RE INSIDE THE MINIATURE, YOU WILL HEAR ALL OF A SUDDEN THE CALL TO PRAYER AND THE KIDS RUNNING AROUND, AND THE MERCHANTS.
WHAT I REALIZED WAS I HAD CAPTURED A MOMENT OF PEACE THAT NO LONGER EXISTED WHEN THE ARTWORK CAME OUT TO THE WORLD.
♪ ♪ >> HOW DID THE ARTWORK START?
HOW DID THE ARTWORK BEGIN?
YOU'RE AN ARCHITECT.
YOU'RE IN CHARGE OF, YOU KNOW, HUGE, YOU KNOW, MULTIMILLION-DOLLAR PROJECTS.
SO HOW DID THE ARTWORK START?
>> IT STARTED MY FIRST YEAR IN COLLEGE.
I'LL NEVER SEE DAMASCUS AGAIN.
AND I WAS SO HOMESICK.
SO THIS WAS 2003.
THIS WAS WELL BEFORE -- THIS WAS THE GOLDEN NEW ERA OF DAMASCUS WHERE WE'RE OPENING UP TO THE WORLD.
CELL PHONES, THE INTERNET.
MY FAMILY IS GATHERING WITHOUT ME.
ALL THREE SIBLINGS AND MY TWO PARENTS.
WEDDINGS, THE BIRTH OF MY NEPHEWS AND NIECES.
I'M SO HOMESICK.
I SAID STOP WHINING.
IF YOU CAN'T GO TO DAMASCUS, MAKE DAMASCUS.
AS AN ARCHITECT STUDENT WITH TOOLS OF MODEL MAKING TOOL, I STARTED PUTTING THINGS TOGETHER.
AND I REMEMBER MY FIRST ONE, I LOOKED AT THE CLOCK AND LATER I WAS LIKE, I JUST SPENT TEN STRAIGHT HOURS ON THIS.
IT FELT, IT FELT -- I STARTED IN SECRET DOING THESE THINGS ALONGSIDE MY STUDYING.
MY CAREER.
BY DUMB LUCK OVER THE LAST 24 YEARS, I HAD BEEN IN AMERICA, MY ARTWORK EVOLVED IN STAGES THAT REFLECTED LITERALLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND AND WHAT I WAS FEELING.
I WENT FROM A NOSTALGIC, MY EARLIER WORK OF VERY PRISTINE, NOSTALGIC REPRODUCTIONS OF OLD DAMASCUS TO THE INVASION OF IRAQ, WHAT WE SAW, TO FAST FORWARD TO SYRIAN UPRISING, THE ARAB SPRING.
ALL OF THAT, I HAVE ARTWORK THAT RESEMBLED THIS THAT WAS BUILT IN SECRET.
>> WHAT IS IT TO YOU?
>> WE NOW CALL IT ART THERAPY OR CATHARTIC EXPRESSION.
I KNEW, WE'VE GOT TO REALIZE, YOU KNOW, ON THE DAYTIME, I WAS A CLEAN SHAVEN ARCHITECT TRYING TO PULL A CORPORATE, COMPOSED LOOK, PITCHING $200, $300 MILLION.
THE MOHAMED THAT WENT BACK EVERY DAY AND OPENING TO DESTRUCTION AND A CITY AS OLD AS DAMASCUS, BOMBED OUT OF EXISTENCE, OUT OF ALL THE LOVE RELATIONSHIP THAT I HAD GONE THROUGH WITH PLAY HOME COUNTRY.
AND I'M SEEING ALL THE HERITAGE BEING BLOWN OUT OF EXISTENCE.
YOU CAN IMAGINE THE HOT AND COLD CYCLES I WENT THROUGH DAILY.
>> HOW DID IT START THAT YOUR ART BECAME RECOGNIZED AS ART?
AT FIRST IT WAS, FORGIVE ME, IT WAS THERAPY.
A WAY TO JUST EXPRESS ALL THAT WAS INSIDE OF YOU.
WHEN DID YOU REALIZE THAT IT WAS ART?
WHEN DID IT BECOME RECOGNIZED BY OTHER PEOPLE AS ART?
>> IN THIS VERY STUDIO, I WOULD SPEND ENDLESS, ENDLESS NIGHTS BUILDING THESE THINGS, AND BUILDING AND BUILDING.
EVERY TIME I WOULD ALLOW EVERYBODY, IT GOT TO A POINT.
IT WAS 2015 OR 2016 WHEN SOMEBODY WENT INTO MY STUDIO AND SAID, THIS IS, PEOPLE NEED TO SEE THIS.
NO, NO.
THIS IS JUST FOR ME.
YOU'RE CRAZY.
THIS NEEDS TO BE SEEN.
AND I DON'T RECALL HOW THINGS HAPPENED BUT THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED SO FAST, IN LESS THAN A YEAR, I WAS WRITTEN UP IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" NEW YORKER, GUARDIAN, GLOBAL CITIZEN.
I WAS VERY, I WAS DOING SIX EXHIBITS.
WHEN I CAME TO THE WORLD I HAD A BOTT OF WORK FOR 24 YEARS THAT RESEMBLED ALL OF THESE ERAS AND IT WAS THE REFUGEE CRISIS ALL OVER AGAIN AND PEOPLE WANTED TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT SYRIA AND REFUGEES IN WAYS THAT THE POLITICIANS WERE NOT ABLE TO HUMANIZE AND TALK ABOUT IT.
THEN A DOCUMENTARY CAME OUT.
AND THAT ALL HAPPENED SO FAST.
I COULDN'T CARE LESS ABOUT THE EXPOSURE.
I COULDN'T CARE LESS ABOUT IT.
IT WAS FOR ME.
I HAD FOOD ON THE TABLE.
I WAS AN ARCHITECT.
IT WAS FOR ME.
THE MORE I WOULD PUT THE WORK OUT THERE, THE MORE MANY PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD FROM MANY WALKS OF LIFE, NOT MLG EASTERNS.
EUROPEANS, GERMANS, JEWISH PEOPLE WOULD FLOCK TO APPLY EXHIBITS AND RELATE AND RESONATE WITH THE HOMESICKNESS AND PAIN.
>> YOUR FAMILY IS STILL ALL OVER.
RIGHT?
YOUR FAMILY IS STILL SEPARATED ALL OVER THE WORLD.
I MEAN, YOU HAVE SIBLINGS WHO LIVE IN ONE PLACE.
YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES.
CAN YOU TRY TO EXPLAIN FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT HAD THAT EXPERIENCE OF WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE SEPARATED FROM FAMILY AND NOT SEE THEM FOR YEARS.
NOT BE ABLE TO.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT?
>> WE'RE IN DECEMBER.
WE JUST PASSED THANKSGIVING HOLIDAY.
I HATED THANKSGIVING HOLIDAY.
EVERY INCH OF MY BODY.
EVERYBODY AROUND ME IN COLLEGE AND IN MY, YOU KNOW, 25 YEARS IN AMERICA, WERE JUST, LIKE YOU'RE SAYING SELF-CONSCIOUSLY PREPARING TO BE WITH FAMILIES AROUND THE DINNER TABLES.
I WAS THAT KID THAT WOULD SIT AT HOME WITHOUT ANYWHERE TO GO, HOMESICK, WATCHING MY FAMILY, PEOPLE CLOSE TO ME GETTING MARRIED AND SO ON, AND WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO TAKE PART OF THESE SIMPLE HUMAN ACTIVITIES THAT NOURISH US AS HUMANS IN RELATIONSHIPS.
IT IS A SIMPLE RIGHT TO EVERY HUMAN AROUND THE WORLD.
WHAT CRIME DID I COMMIT TO BE, TO HAVE THAT STOLEN FROM ME?
TO HAVE THESE MINUTES OF JOY AND SORROW AND SADNESS STOLEN FROM ME?
SO FOR MANY, I COULDN'T EVEN, I DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT BUT I MADE ART TO MAKE SURE TO TALK ABOUT THE PAIN OF HOMESICKNESS.
SOMETIME THE WHOLE PIECE THAT I WAS MAKING, MAY MOM'S SALON AND MY MOM'S SOFA IN MY SUITCASE.
>> EACH PHASE OF IT HAS MANIFESTED IN YOUR WORK.
I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT THIS PHASE INSPIRES IN YOU.
DO YOU THINK YOU MIGHT GO BACK TO SYRIA AT SOME POINT?
>> I THINK TWO NIGHTS AGO, I JUST COULDN'T SLEEP.
I COULDN'T SLEEP.
I TRIED.
I FINALLY WOKE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND I AM, I HAVE TO DO THIS.
I DECIDED TO GIVE AWAY ALL OF MAY ARTWORK THAT WAS BUILT IN THAT ERA TO PROPER INSTITUTIONS AND MUSEUMS TO HIGHLIGHT THAT BLACK ERA, THAT DARK ERA THAT WE WENT THROUGH, TO REMIND US OF THE SYRIAN NEVER AGAIN MOMENT.
THIS IS THE END OF AN ERA.
NO MATTER HOW TROUBLESOME.
NO MATTER HOW PESSIMISTIC, OPTIMISTIC.
THERE IS NOTHING WORSE COMING OR WORTH FEARING THAN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AS SYRIAN PEOPLE UNDER THAT REGIME.
THE WHOLE WORLD CAN AGREE THAT THIS IS AN ERA THAT WILL NEVER COME BACK.
WE CAN GO THROUGH TURMOIL TO REBUILD AND STAND ON OUR FEET.
ABSOLUTELY.
IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE.
BUT WE HAVE AS COLLECTIVE ARTISTS TO SAY THIS HAS FINISHED.
TO TEACH OURSELVES.
TO DREAM.
I NEED TO PUT A LINE IN THE SAND TO SAY NOW, MOHAMED, YOU CAN GO BACK.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
THE WOMAN THAT I'VE BEEN DOING THE IMMIGRANT AND REFUGEE WORK, IT HAS A NEW DIMENSION WHERE I'M SAYING YOUR WORK HAS TO GO TO INSTITUTIONS TO EDUCATE WHAT HAS HAPPENED.
GROW ON IT.
LEARN THE MISTAKES AND BUILD THE SOCIETY TOGETHER.
I HAVE, I'M VERY, I'M EAGER THINKING TO MYSELF, HOW DID THE GERMANS DO IT?
HOW DID THEY COME TOGETHER?
HOW DID MANY NATIONS THAT WENT THROUGH THIS COME TOGETHER AND FORGIVE AND FORGET WHILE LEARNING.
SO WITH THAT INITIATIVE, I HOPE MANY ARTIST CREATIVES OF SYRIA WILL COME TOGETHER AND PUT THAT LINE IN THE SAND AND SAY, LISTEN, RIGHT NOW IT'S A DARK MOMENT.
WE UNDERSTAND.
BUT THE TIME WILL COME WHERE WE WILL HAVE OUR OWN INSTITUTIONS AND IT'S TIME TO REBUILD THE NEW GENERATION.
>> MOHAMAD HAFEZ.
IT'S BEEN A DELIGHT.
THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
I APPRECIATE IT.
GOD BLESS.
>> HOPEFULLY THE LIGHT HAS COME TO SYRIA.
>>> FINALLY, IN TURBULENT TIMES, NATURE OFTEN PROVIDES A RESPITE.
SOMETIMES IT EVEN MAKES US LAUGH, LIKE THIS PHOTO OF A STUCK SQUIRREL.
IT IS THE WINNER OF THIS YEAR'S NIKON WILDLIFE AWARDS TAKEN IN ITALY.
DON'T WORRY, THE RARE RED CREATURE IS NOT ACTUALLY STUCK.
IT IS DIVING INTO ITS HIDEOUT.
THE OTHER WINNERS INCLUDING THIS DANCING PREYING MANTIS.
THIS UNEXPECTED ROLE SWAP BETWEEN A BALD EAGLE AND A FISH AND THE SMOOCHING OWLETS.
I THINK THAT'S THE CUTEST AND THAT'S THE BEST.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
GOODBYE FROM LONDON.