December 16, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

DIPLOMACY MAY END THE >>> I WANT TO INSPIRE OTHER GIRLS AND OTHER WOMEN.

>> FREE AFTER YEARS ENSLAVED BY I.S.I.S., SHE STARES HER OWN STORY OF RESILIENCE AND SURVIVAL IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY WITH FILMMAKER HASSAN OSBORNE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD: >> ACROSS AMERICA, WE ARE GOING TO SEE THE BENEFITS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION BLEED OVER INTO THE NEXT PRINT >> OUTGOING U.S. ENERGY SECRETARY JENNIFER GRANHOLM TELLS HARRY WHY SHE THINKS PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CLIMATE LEGACY IS SAFE FROM DONALD TRUMP POINT.

>> [ MUSIC ] >>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, SYLVIA AND SIMON PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK GLESSNER, J MELVIN, THE PETER PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA U.N., COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE IS TOP OF THE AGENDA FOR EUROPEAN FOREIGN MINISTERS MEETING IN BRUSSELS TODAY.

RUSSIAN FORCES ARE REPORTEDLY JUST THREE KILOMETERS, THAT IS UNDER TWO MILES, FROM THE E UKRAINIAN CITY IN THE EAST BRADY MEANWHILE, KYIV SAYS THIS GRAPHIC VIDEO SHOWS DEAD RUSSIAN AND NORTH KOREAN SOLDIERS IN RUSSIA'S REGION WHERE THEY ARE STILL TRYING TO RAPPEL UKRAINE'S SUMMER INCURSION.

WITH A NEW YEAR AHEAD AND A NEW AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, TOO, THE URGENT QUESTION IS HOW TO END THE WAR IN UKRAINE SOON.

FEW KNOW BETTER WHAT THOSE NEGOTIATIONS WOULD LOOK LIKE AND THE COST OF SUCH A DEAL THAN FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER DIMITRI, HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM KYIV, THE CAPITAL.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE BACK.

>> YEAH, I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE FIRST AND FOREMOST, WHAT YOU THINK IS THE OUTCOME OF THE EUROPEAN FOREIGN MINISTERS MEETING ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY, WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY ARE IN FACT DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, I AM PRETTY CERTAIN THEY WERE DISCUSSING NEW SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA, BUT ALSO, THE WAY FORWARD, WHAT EUROPE HAS TO DO AGAINST THE BACKGROUND OF THE CHANGED ENVIRONMENT, POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS THE BIGGEST QUESTION THAT HAS RISEN IN EUROPE.

WHAT TO DO NEXT AND HOW TO PROCEED, AND THESE DISCUSSIONS ARE TAKING PLACE AT DIFFERENT LEVELS AT VARIOUS CAPITALS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, AND EVEN IN EUROPE, THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF WOBBLING, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY PRETTY JUST SAW THE GERMAN SITUATION HAS BEEN THROWN INTO DISARRAY WITH A NEW ELECTION, AND OTHER LEADERS ARE SAYING ALL SORTS OF THINGS ABOUT POTENTIALLY PULLING BACK AID, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU THE ANSWER DONALD TRUMP JUST GAVE TO A QUESTION AS TO WHAT SHOULD UKRAINE BE PREPARED TO GIVE UP IN ANY NEGOTIATION?

HERE IS WHAT DONALD TRUMP, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT, SAID.

>> [ INAUDIBLE ] GOT TO BE A DEAL.

GOT TO BE A DEAL.

TOO MANY PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

THAT IS A WAR -- TOO MANY -- GOT TO MAKE A DEAL.

AND PUTIN HAS TO MAKE A DEAL.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU COULD HEAR IT, HE WAS OFF MICROPHONE, BUT YOU SAID ZELENSKYY HAS GOT TO MAKE A DEAL, GOT TO MAKE A DEAL, TOO MANY PEOPLE BEING KILLED, AND PUTIN HAS TO MAKE A DEAL, TOO.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, I DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING NEW.

I THINK IT IS EARLY TO SAY HOW PRESIDENT TRUMP SEES THE DEAL THAT CAN BE FEASIBLE.

I BELIEVE THAT THE DEAL IS NOT A QUESTION.

THE QUESTION IS FAIR DEAL.

A DEAL THAT NOT ONLY INCLUDES A CEASE-FIRE THAT IS HIGHLY LIKELY TO BE BROKEN WITHIN THE FIRST 24 HOURS AFTER BEING INTRODUCED, BUT THE DEAL THAT WILL ACTUALLY END THE WAR AND PREVENT NEW WAR FROM HAPPENING.

THIS IS THE REAL TASK FOR STATEMENT.

BUT WHAT WE SEE AROUND IS A WORD GAME LIKE POLITICIANS AND LEADERS, THEY PLAY WITH WORDS AND CONSTRUCT MESSAGES, INDICATE THEIR READINESS TO ENGAGE RIDDE BUT THE MOMENT THEY GO DOWN TO THE VERY SUBSTANCE OF THE CONVERSATION, THIS WILL BE A VERY TOUGH MOMENT FOR ALL STAKEHOLDERS.

>> TOP, OKAY, TOUGH.

LET'S TAKE YOUR OWN COUNTRIES STAKEHOLDER.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY MET DONALD TRUMP IN PARIS LAST WEEK AT THE REOPENING OF NOTRE DAME, AND INDICATED SOME FLEXIBILITY THAT HE WOULD ACCEPT A CEASE-FIRE WITH RUSSIA IF HIS COUNTRY CAN OBTAIN NATO MEMBERSHIP.

ANYWAY, WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT.

BUT HE ALSO SAID THAT THEY WOULD POTENTIALLY ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT SOME LAND HAS TO BE TRANSFERRED, YOU KNOW, POTENTIALLY THAT PUTIN WOULD KEEP SOME OF THE LAND.

DONALD TRUMP SORT OF ENVOY FOR THE UKRAINE, KELLOGG, HAS TALKED ABOUT THAT AS WELL, AND TALKED ABOUT POTENTIALLY FREEZING THE CONFLICT AND PUTTING PEACEKEEPERS IN.

GIVE ME SOME OF YOUR REACTION TO THAT POINT WHAT DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING FIRST AND FOREMOST IN YOUR CAPITAL, WHAT IS ZELENSKYY PREPARED TO DO?

>> WELL, ZELENSKYY IS IMPLEMENTING THE ONLY VIABLE STRATEGY, WHICH IS TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE, ENGAGING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

BUT AS I SAID BEFORE AND AS YOU JUST CONFIRMED WITH THE EXAMPLES THAT YOU BROUGHT UP, WHEN LEADERS ARE SAYING WE WANT PEACE, THAT IS EASY.

WHEN YOU GET TO DEFINING THE TERMS OF THIS PIECE AND TO THE SPECIFIC SOLUTIONS THAT HAVE TO BE IMPLEMENTED, IT GETS REALLY DIFFICULT.

LIKE TAKE THE NATO ISSUE.

WE HEAR DIFFERENT, OPPOSITE VIEWS ON THAT.

TAKE THE LAND ISSUE, NO LEADER OF UKRAINE CAN LEGALLY CONCEDE THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE IN THIS CONSTITUTION, SO WE CANNOT SPEAK ABOUT ANY TRANSFER.

DIPLOMATS WILL HAVE TO FIND A DELPHIC LANGUAGE TO DESCRIBE THIS TERRITORIAL STATUS QUO.

BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO, BECAUSE BOTH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE BELIEVE THAT THIS LAND IS LEGALLY THEIRS.

THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT UKRAINE DOES THAT IN A RIGHTFUL WAY AND RUSSIA IS NOT RIGHTFUL IN THE SPIRIT BUT IT WILL BE A VERY CHALLENGING EXERCISE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN ASK HUNDREDS OF QUESTIONS OF WHAT UKRAINE SHOULD DO, BUT THE KEY TO PEACE IS IN MOSCOW.

AND AS LONG AS PUTIN IS NOT IN GOOD FAITH, EVERYTHING ELSE -- THE IMPORTANCE OF EVERYTHING ELSE DIMINISHES.

>> SO, IT APPEARS THAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO PUT SOME PRESSURE ON PUTIN.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE SAID UKRAINE SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE PERMISSION BY THE U.S. TO USE THE TOP WEAPONS AND STRIKE 200 KILOMETERS INSIDE RUSSIA.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I ASSUME YOU BELIEVE THAT RUSSIA'S RELATIVE WEAKNESS WAS DEMONSTRATED WHEN IT REFUSED OR DIDN'T OR COULDN'T COME TO THE HELP OF ITS CLIENT IN SYRIA.

I WONDER HOW YOU ARE ASSESSING THAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS?

DO YOU THINK IT MEANS THAT RUSSIA ACTUALLY NOW, PARTICULARLY WITH TRUMP IN OFFICE, WHO SAYS HE WILL GIVE MORE WEAPONS TO UKRAINE IF PUTIN DOESN'T COME TO THE TABLE, WHETHER YOU SEE THAT AS SUFFICIENT PRESSURE ON RUSSIA?

>> WELL, FIRST, PUTIN IS NOT AS STRONG AS HE PRETENDS.

AND THE INVOLVEMENT OF NORTH KOREAN TROOPS AND HIS SHAMEFUL FAILURE IN SYRIA SPEAK FOR THIS FACT.

SECOND, THIS IS THE WORST MOMENT FOR UKRAINE'S PARTNERS TO FALTER, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO STAND UNITED, WE HAVE TO STAY UNITED, WE HAVE TO STAY STRONG AND RESOLVE TO DEFEAT PUTIN.

THE MOMENT PUTIN FEELS WEAKNESS IN UKRAINE OR ITS PARTNERS, HE WILL SPEND HIS LAST RESOURCES ON HITTING THE TARGET.

AND THIS IS NOT A MOMENT TO ENGAGE IN DISCUSSIONS ON WEAKENING SUPPORT.

THIRD, AND THIS IS THE LESSON THAT I THINK WE SHOULD ALL TAKE AWAY FROM SYRIA, PUTIN CANNOT SUSTAIN A WAR EFFORT ON MULTIPLE FRONTS.

HE CAN FIGHT ONLY ONE WAR AT A TIME.

SECOND, WHEN HE HAS TO CHOOSE, HE CHOOSES THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

AND THIRD, IF HE WINS IN UKRAINE, HE WILL IMMEDIATELY START ANOTHER WAR, AND THAT WILL BE THE WAR AGAINST EU AND NATO MEMBERS.

AND TRUST ME, I'M NOT EXAGGERATING, BUT DECISION- MAKERS HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE DETRIMENTAL CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR WOBBLING.

>> SO, MORE AND MORE ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE OR INTERVIEWS WITH ORDINARY PEOPLE, EVEN PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINE WHO ARE OBVIOUSLY SERIOUSLY COMMITTED TO WHAT THEY'RE DOING, YOUR PEOPLE, THEY ARE TIRED.

YOU KNOW, THIS HAS GONE ON FOR SO LONG, THERE IS SO MUCH KILLING, RUSSIA IS MAKING INCREMENTAL ADVANCES.

WE JUST SET IT POTENTIALLY COULD GET CLOSE TO OR IT IS CLOSE, VERY CLOSE.

THEY ARE TIRED.

AGAIN, IT IS ALSO, AS YOU SEE AND WE KEEP REPORTING, RUSSIA HAS REALLY SENT SOME VERY, VERY, VERY HEAVY MISSILES AND OTHER STRIKES ON YOUR GRADE, YOUR INFRASTRUCTURE, ENERGY, ET CETERA.

AGAIN, HOW LONG DO YOU ALTHOUG UKRAINE SUFFERS MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WAR, AND YOU ARE RIGHT, WE ARE NOT JUST TIRED, WE ARE EXHAUSTED, BUT WE ENDURE MORE AND MORE HARDSHIPS FOR ONLY ONE REASON, BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND WHAT WILL BE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR US IF WE WITHDRAW FROM THE FIGHT, IF WE LOSE.

IT WILL BE THE END OF OUR STATEHOOD, IT WILL BE THE END OF OUR IDENTITY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THERE WILL BE A BUNCH OF PLACES WHERE MASSACRES WERE COMMITTED BY RUSSIAN FORCES ALL OVER UKRAINE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT FORGET WHAT RUSSIANS WERE DOING IN OCCUPIED CITIES, ALL THE ACTS OF GENOCIDE AND MASSACRES THAT THEY COMMITTED.

SO, THIS IS WHAT KEEPS US FIGHTING.

BUT DON'T FORGET THAT RUSSIA IS ALSO TIRED.

AND WE STARTED THIS WAR WITH RUSSIA BEING CAPABLE TO FIGHT THIS WAR ON ITS OWN, BUT TODAY, IT CANNOT UPHOLD THE EFFORT, IT CANNOT KEEP UP THE FIRE WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF ITS PARTNERS.

PRIMARILY IN NORTH KOREA AND IRAN.

SO, WE ARE A COMPLETELY CHANGING ENVIRONMENT NOW.

IT IS CONVENTIONAL TO SPEAK ABOUT UKRAINE NOT BEING ABLE TO FIGHT WITHOUT ITS PARTNERS, BUT RUSSIA CANNOT FIGHT WITHOUT ITS PARTNERS EITHER, SO THIS SHOULD NOT BE UNDERESTIMATED.

THE ONE WHO BLINKS TODAY IT LOSES THE WAR, SO WE HAVE TO KEEP STRONG AND WE HAVE TO KEEP FIGHTING.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE RON.

OBVIOUSLY, ANALYSTS SAY THAT IRAN HAS ALSO BEEN WEAKENED BY THE ISRAELI ATTACKS THAT HAVE WEAKENED ITS PROXIES, CLEARLY DISRUPTED THEM, AND OF ALL OF ITS MAIN ALLY, WHICH IS SYRIA, AND YOU MENTIONED NORTH KOREA.

WELL, THERE ARE NORTH KOREAN TROOPS FIGHTING, AND REUTERS IS SAYING THEY HAVE SUSTAINED AT LEAST 30 SOLDIERS KILLED IN THE REGION.

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO -- I MEAN, THE PEOPLE YOU TALK TO IT MILITARILY, HOW MUCH OF A HELP FOR RUSSIA HAVE THE NORTH KOREANS BEEN IN KURK ?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE THAT MILITARILY AND POLITICALLY SPEAKING, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE VOLUME OF HELP, IT IS ABOUT THE PRINCIPAL.

AND I FEEL REALLY SAD TO SAY THIS, BUT THE TRUTH OF THE WAR IS THAT UKRAINE -- RUSSIA HAS A FRIEND WHO IS SENDING ITS TROOPS TO DIE FOR RUSSIA IN ITS AGGRESSIVE WAR.

AND UKRAINE HAS FRIENDS WHO ARE WOBBLING, AS YOU MENTIONED, OR DISCUSSING WHETHER TO SEND -- WHICH WEAPONS TO SEND AND WHAT WILL BE THE ROLES OF THE USE OF THESE WEAPONS.

THIS IS VERY, VERY WEIRD AND UNFORTUNATE TO OBSERVE THAT.

BUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT TODAY, I AM PRETTY CERTAIN PUTIN HAS INSTRUCTED HIS PEOPLE, HIS INTELLIGENCE AND HIS DIPLOMACY, TO DOUBLE DOWN ON SEWING DIVISIONS AND HESITATION AND FEAR AMONG UKRAINE'S PARTNERS, BECAUSE HE KNOWS HOW WEAK HE IS AND HE NEEDS TO PUSH OUR PARTNERS TO THE EDGE TO MAKE THEM FALTER, AND THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD NOT ALLOW.

>> SO, I SPOKE TO THE FORMER GERMAN CHANCELLOR A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, AND SHE WAS RECOLLECTING WHAT SHE HAS WRITTEN IN HER BOOK, TALKING ABOUT HOW FOR INSTANCE, AFTER 2014, AROUND THE INVASION AND ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA AND IN PARTS OF EASTERN UKRAINE, THAT -- SHE SAID THAT HE HAD BASICALLY LIED BRAZENLY TO HER THAT THERE WERE NO RUSSIAN TROOPS THERE.

AND SHE KEPT PUSHING HIM ON IT, AND THIS IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME.

>> LATER ON, HE DID ADMIT THAT, HE HAD LIED, THAT WAS A TURNING POINT IN OUR RELATIONSHIP QUITE CLEARLY, THAT I HAD TO BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS IN MY APPROACH TOWARDS HIM, SO YOU CANNOT ONLY TRUST AN AGREEMENT WITH HIM, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, SO WE HAVE TO GIVE UKRAINE AND WHAT EVER FORM WHATSOEVER, VERY CLEAR AND ABSOLUTELY RELIABLE GUARANTEES.

>> SO BASICALLY, SHE IS ADMITTING THAT PUTIN LIED, THAT YOU CAN'T TRUST HIS WORD, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GET CLEAR GUARANTEES TO MAKE SURE THAT ANY DEAL THAT IS STRUCK STICKS.

WHAT IS A SECURITY GUARANTEE FOR UKRAINE AS YOU LOOK AT IT RIGHT NOW, WITH ALL THESE PIECES ON THE CHESSBOARD MOVING, THERE HAVE BEEN SUGGESTIONS, AND YOU KNOW THAT NATO IS SPEAKING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY THIS WEEK AND EUROPEAN LEADERS, AND THERE IS A THOUGHT THAT MAYBE EUROPEAN FORCES, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER TRUMP WOULD AGREE TO U.S.

FORCES, BUT PEACEKEEPERS ALONG THE LINE OF CONFLICT.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT IS BEING RAISED SERIOUSLY, ENTERTAINED SERIOUSLY?

>> WELL, ANOTHER PART OF INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS ANYMORE, BUT WHAT I SEE AND UNDERSTAND IS DIFFERENT OPTIONS ARE BEING CONSIDERED.

WITH ONLY ONE GOAL, TO FIND SOMETHING THAT WILL REPLACE NATO MEMBERSHIP FOR UKRAINE WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT CONSTITUTES ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PUTIN DECIDED TO WAGE THIS WAR.

IN 2014, AND THEN LARGE-SCALE INVASION IN 2022.

THE MOMENT OUR WESTERN FRIENDS AND PARTNERS, WHO I SUPPORT AND APPRECIATE VERY MUCH, WILL STOP INVENTING THE WILL FOR UKRAINE, THE SECURITY WILL UKRAINE, AND WILL OFFER TO UKRAINE WHAT GUARANTEES THEIR SECURITY, WHICH IS NATO MEMBERSHIP, THEN WE WILL HAVE -- WE WILL HAVE STRONG AND STREAMLINED SECURITY ARCHITECTURE IN EUROPE.

TRUST ME, THE CONVERSATION ON SECURITY GUARANTEES WILL END UP WITH NOTHING REALLY SERIOUS -- NOTHING THAT UKRAINE HAS NOT SEEN OR RECEIVED YET.

THERE WILL BE SOME ADDITIONS, BUT I JUST DON'T SEE WHAT ELSE THEY CAN OFFER TO UKRAINE.

>> SO, YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT YOU WISH UKRAINE'S PARTNERS WOULD TAKE.

YOU WERE SHUFFLING AND DOING SO MUCH OF THIS DIPLOMACY THROUGHOUT THE WAR, WHAT ARE YOUR TAKEAWAYS?

YOU KNOW, CAN YOU TELL US?

I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO NAME NAMES, BUT WHAT DID PEOPLE SAY WHEN YOU WERE TRYING TO GIVE THIS MESSAGE?

>> WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT UKRAINE IS NOW WIDELY CONSIDERED AS PART OF THE WESTERN FAMILY, AND IT IS A HUGE BREAKTHROUGH BECAUSE FOR DECADES, WE WERE SEEN BY OUR OWN FRIENDS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA AS A BRIDGE OR A ROAD OR ANYTHING, BUT ALWAYS SOMETHING IN BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE WEST.

SO NOW, IT SEEMS TO BE FIXED, OUR COMEBACK TO EUROPE HAS TAKEN PLACE.

THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

THE BAD NEWS IS THAT THERE IS ONE BIG, FUNDAMENTAL, OUTSTANDING ISSUE, WHICH IS NATO MEMBERSHIP, AND EXACTLY IN THE SAME WAY, AS UKRAINE WAS PROPOSED ALTERNATIVES TO MEMBERSHIP IN THE EUROPEAN UNION SOME YEARS AGO, WE ARE NOW BEING PROPOSED ALTERNATIVES TO MEMBERSHIP IN NATO.

AND THE ONLY REASON WHY THIS IS HAPPENING IS OF COURSE BECAUSE POLITICIANS STICK TO THE OLD COLD WAR CONCEPTS AND THEY ARE FEELING THAT THEY WILL HAVE TO REBUILD BRIDGES WITH RUSSIA ONE DAY.

ONCE THIS -- IN THESE PREJUDICES AND STEREOTYPES ARE OUT, THINGS WILL GET VERY CLEAR.

>> IN 20 SECONDS, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GO IN THE FIRST MONTH OF TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY?

>> MANY STATEMENTS, A LOT OF SHUFFLED DIPLOMACY, A LOT OF AGITATION IN DIFFERENT PLACES, BUT I DON'T SEE REAL PEACE BEING RE-ESTABLISHED SOON.

>> DMYTRO KULEBA, FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

NOW, SURVIVAL AND RESILIENCE ARE INSTINCTS EMBEDDED OF COURSE IN UKRAINIANS AND MOST VICTIMS OF WAR, LIKE MY NEXT GUEST, WHO HAD A TERRIFYING EXPERIENCE IN IRAN.

HE WAS 10 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE WAS KIDNAPPED BY I.S.I.S.

AS THEY SLEPT THROUGH AND CONQUERED LARGE PARTS OF THAT REGION.

SHE WAS ONE OF THOUSANDS OF THE ETHNIC MINORITY TAKEN LIKE THIS, SEPARATED FROM HER FAMILY, HELD CAPTIVE FOR ALMOST FOUR YEARS.

NOW SHE IS TELLING HER STORY IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY, I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THE FILMS DIRECTOR AND MEDIHA HERSELF IN THE PURSUIT OF JUSTICE.

MEDIHA AND HASSAN OSWALD, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US ON.

>> MEDIHA, LET ME JUST ASK YOU FIRST, HOW DO YOU FEEL AS A YOUNG WOMAN TO KNOW THAT YOUR STORY IS OUT THERE AND YOU ARE ABLE TO MAKE YOUR CASE TO THE WORLD?

>> WHEN I SAW A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE MY MOVIE AND SUPPORT MY STORY -- BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A POWERFUL STORY, YOU KNOW?

IT IS SAD AND IT IS HAPPY, TOO.

AND THEN IT IS GREAT, YEAH.

IT IS FEELING VERY SUCCESSFUL.

I THINK SO.

>> GOOD.

I'M GLAD TO HEAR YOU ARE FEELING GOOD BECAUSE YOU WENT THROUGH HELL AND THAT HELL, YOU DOCUMENTED WITH HASSAN.

HASSAN, HOW DID YOU EVEN HEAR ABOUT MEDIHA?

X I ACTUALLY HEARD OF THIS UNIQUE STORY BACK IN 2014, '15, RIGHT AFTER THE GENOCIDE, AND MY TRANSLATOR ON A PREVIOUS FILM -- AFTER WE WERE DONE FILMING, I WOULD HAVE TEAM MEALS WITH HER AND HER RELATIVES, THAT'S WHY I SORT OF LEARNED OF THE TORTURED PAST OF THESE PEOPLE, BECAUSE BY THEIR ACCOUNT, THIS IS THE 74th GENOCIDE COMMITTED AGAINST THEM, AND IN 2018, I READ AN ARTICLE THAT ANGERED ME, IT FRUSTRATED ME THAT THERE WERE STILL 3000+ PEOPLE IN CAPTIVITY OR OTHERWISE MISSING, SO I WANTED SORT OF AN ALTERNATE CREATIVE PATH INTO THIS STORY, BUT I KNEW I NEEDED SOMEONE TRULY SPECIAL TO HELP CARRY THAT COLLABORATION, AND THAT ENDED UP BEING MEDIHA.

>> YOU JUST BROUGHT UP SOMETHING VERY SIGNIFICANT AND THAT IS HOW YOU DID THIS FILM.

YOU DID SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WITH MEDIHA, WHAT DID YOU DO TO RE-ESTABLISH THAT BALANCE?

>> YES, I AM NOT YAZIDI, I AM NOT FROM THE REGION, AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO PROVIDE THE TOOLS FOR MEDIHA TO TELL HER STORY, TO TELL HER COMMUNITIES STORY, RATHER THAN JUST BE AN OUTSIDER WHO TELLS THE STORY HOW I SEE FIT.

WE HAD HOPED TO ALSO INSTILL SOME SEMBLANCE -- RETURN SOME SEMBLANCE OF AGENCY TO MEDIHA AFTER SHE RETURNED FROM AN UNSPEAKABLE FIVE YEARS, FOUR YEARS IN CAPTIVITY WITH I.S.I.S.

IT TURNED OUT TO BE, YOU KNOW, I HAD THOUGHT HOPEFULLY THAT THIS HOME-VIDEO TYPE, SELF FILMED MEDIHA FOOTAGE WOULD BE TRANSITIONS OR SOME KIND OF CREATIVE VIGNETTE OR ONLINE MATERIAL.

I COULDN'T HAVE DREAMED OF HOW INTUITIVELY SHE WOULD TAKE THE CINEMATOGRAPHY AND JUST WHAT AN INCREDIBLE STORYTELLER SHE WAS, AND IT ENDED UP BEING SHE FOUND 40, 50% OF THE MOVIE.

SO, SHE TOOK THE REINS OF THE NARRATIVE AND ALSO THE FILMMAKING, SORT OF FROM THE START.

>> AND THAT IS REALLY REMARKABLE, SO WELL DONE, MEDIHA.

LET ME PLAY THIS FIRST CLIP.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> MEDIHA, YOU OBVIOUSLY REMEMBER THAT.

>> YEAH, I DO.

>> TELL ME AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AND YOU ARE WILLING TO TELL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

WHAT DID PEOPLE SAY TO YOU ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO YOU?

>> UM, WHEN I WAS SPEAKING MY STORY FOR THE PEOPLE, THEY DON'T BELIEVE ME.

BUT A LOT OF BAD STUFF FOR ME AND MY COMMUNITY AND FOR GIRLS, TOO, AND WOMEN, LIKE RAPE AND STUFF, YOU KNOW?

FOR EXAMPLE, THEY RAPED ME AND THEY BROKE MY HAND.

A LOT OF STUFF.

AND THEN THEY SOLD ME LIKE FOUR TIMES.

>> AND I THINK ALSO JUST THE STIGMA WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, UM, SURROUNDING WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE WOMEN AND GIRLS IN I.S.I.S.

CAPTIVITY.

WHEN THEY RETURNED, IT IS A CULTURALLY AND RELIGIOUSLY ANCIENT AND CONSERVATIVE COMMUNITY THAT IT IS JUST NOT ENCOURAGED TO SPEAK OUT, AND THAT IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO THE YAZIDI COMMUNITY OR COMMUNITIES WITHIN THAT REGION, THAT IS WORLDWIDE WHERE THIS IS NOT ENCOURAGED TO SPEAK OUT.

GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE IS AN ISSUE THAT PLAGUES MUCH OF THE WORLD.

>> IT IS INTERESTING TO LISTEN TO MEDIHA RIGHT NOW, HASSAN, AND YOU JUMPED AND TO EXPLAIN, OBVIOUSLY THE SOCIETAL CONTEXT, BECAUSE IN THE FILM, SHE DOESN'T SAY THAT, SHE DOESN'T GO AS FAR AS ADMITTING.

SO, DO YOU FEEL THAT MEDIHA AND DOES MEDIHA FEEL THAT SHE IS GETTING BETTER, THAT SHE IS HEALING, THAT SHE IS ABLE TO BE, YOU KNOW, MORE HOLE, SO TO SPEAK, AFTER THAT TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE?

>> YEAH, SO I THINK -- I HAVE KNOWN MEDIHA FOR FIVE YEARS, WE WERE JUST REMINISCING OF FIVE YEARS AGO, WE WERE IN THE CAMPS, AND NOW WE ARE IN STUDIO, AND I HAVE SEEN HER GROW IN THIS INCREDIBLE WAY, AND I THINK MOST OF THAT GROWTH COMES FROM THE BEGINNING STAGES OF A HEALING PROCESS.

AND OF COURSE, THIS IS GOING TO BE A LIFELONG PROCESS, BUT I HAVE SEEN A CHANGE IN HER AND I SAW THE CHANGE WHEN WE FIRST GAVE HER THE CAMERAS.

>> SO, MEDIHA, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE A CAMERA WOMAN, TO FILM THE MOVIE?

>> WHEN I FIRST GOT THE CAMERA, IT MADE ME FEEL SO NICE, BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THERAPY, DON'T HAVE A BEST FRIEND.

I CALL THE CAMERA SHE LIKE A GIRL, LIKE A GIRL FRIENDS.

BECAUSE SHE WAS LISTENING TO ME.

LIKE I TOLD HER MY FEELINGS.

YEAH.

IT WAS GREAT.

>> LET ME PLAY THIS CLIP BECAUSE IT IS SO GREAT TO HEAR YOU TALK LIKE THIS NOW AND TO SEE YOU SMILING AND IN A DIFFERENT STATE THAN YOU WERE IN, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU WERE THERE.

THIS IS A CLIP WHERE YOU'RE FILMING AND YOU'RE FEELING REALLY TERRIBLE BECAUSE YOU HEAR PLANES OVERHEAD AND YOU HEAR THE CALL TO PRAYER AND IT REMINDS YOU OF THE ATTACKS, IT REMINDS YOU OF I.S.I.S.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> IT IS REALLY AN AMAZING SCENE.

>> YEAH, YEAH, I DO REMEMBER THAT COULD WE WERE LIKE WALKING AROUND AND IT JUST HAPPENED, YOU KNOW?

IT WAS REAL, IT WAS NOT LIKE FAKE.

NOT LIKE MOVIES STUFF, YOU KNOW, LIKE A SHOW.

WHEN I WAS WITH I.S.I.S.

AND I LISTENED TO SOUNDS LIKE PRAYING.

THEY WOULD SAY TO ME YOU HAVE TO PRAY NOW.

YOU HAVE TO DO THIS.

AND I REMEMBER I WAS READING THE KORAN, BECAUSE IT IS NOT MY VILLAGE, IT IS NOT MY CULTURE.

I DON'T KNOW THE KORAN.

ONE I.S.I.S.

WOMAN, SHE GOT A STICK AND SHE BROKE MY HANDS WITH THE STICK.

AND LIKE MY FINGER, IT SEEMS BAD NOW, THAT IS WHY.

LIKE IT WAS RAMADAN, TOO.

I WAS FASTING, TOO.

I FASTED THE WHOLE RAMADAN.

I WAS 13 YEARS OLD.

I WAS SO LIKE YOUNG, SO BABY.

>> 13 YEARS OLD.

IT IS AWFUL WHAT THEY DID TO YOU AND SO MANY PEOPLE LIKE YOU, INCLUDING YOUR BROTHERS.

HASSAN, YOU KNOW, MEDIHA, WHEN YOU FIRST MET AND YOU FIRST STARTED THIS PROCESS, WAS UNDERAGE, I MEAN, SHE WASN'T AN ADULT.

BUT YOU ARE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE AGENCY -- TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE SAID TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE QUESTIONED THE AGE THING.

>> SHE WAS 14, 15 AT THE TIME.

AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A CODE OF ETHICS THAT WE FOLLOWED, BUT WE USED THAT AS A BASELINE.

THERE IS SO MUCH MORE THAT WE PUT INTO MAKING SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T JUST CONSENT, IT WAS CONTINUOUS CONSENT, IT WAS CONSTANTLY CHECKING IN WITH MEDIHA, KEEPING HER IN THE LOOP AS FAR AS THE EDIT, WATCHING SCENES, POTENTIAL DISTRIBUTION, FILM FESTIVALS.

WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS WAS A COLLABORATION, THAT IT WAS A TRUE COLLABORATION, BECAUSE AFTER ALL, THIS IS HER STORY.

AND THEN ADDING TO THAT, WE ALSO -- YOU KNOW, THE DO NO HARM, THAT WAS OUR BASELINE.

WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PUT ON GUARDRAILS AND WE PUT IN PROTECTIONS FROM DAY ONE OF PRODUCTION THAT MADE SURE THAT MEDIHA WAS OKAY AT ALL STAGES, SO THAT WAS GIVING HER THE OPPORTUNITY TO WALK AWAY AT ANY POINT IF SHE FELT UNCOMFORTABLE.

YOU KNOW, IF TOMORROW SHE NO LONGER WANTED TO CONTINUE, WE WOULD HONOR THAT, OF COURSE.

AFTER -- YOU KNOW, WORKSHOP AFTER WORKSHOP OF ALL OF THIS, MEDIHA KEPT ASKING ME WHY DO YOU KEEP ASKING ME IF I WANT TO BE IN THIS FILM, IF I WANT TO SHARE THIS MESSAGE?

SHE SAID THIS IS MY STORY AND I WANT TO SHARE IT, SO THAT IS WHERE WE ENDED UP.

>> HE TOLD ME, YOU SURE?

YES, I AM SURE, I WANT TO DO THIS, I WANT TO SHARE AROUND THE WORLD, YEAH.

IT WAS MY DREAM AND I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING FOR MY PEOPLE.

SO BAD.

YEAH.

AND THEN IT HAPPENED, LIKE IT IS CRAZY.

YEAH.

>> YOU HAVE BECOME VERY AMERICAN.

WHAT IS IT LIKE, MEDIHA, LIVING IN NEW YORK WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW?

>> OH MY GOSH, NEW YORK IS VERY FUN PLACE, CITY, SORRY.

IT IS VERY NICE, I LOVE IT.

I ENJOY NEW YORK SO MUCH.

LIKE TAKE A SUBWAY, GO TO SCHOOL, AND SOON MAYBE I CAN GET MY GED DIPLOMA.

SURPRISE.

I DIDN'T TELL HASSAN.

BUT NOW HE KNOWS.

BUT -- >> I KNEW.

>> AND NO, YOU DON'T KNOW, BUT NOW YOU KNOW.

[ LAUGHTER ] IT WAS A SURPRISE.

>> AND YOU GUYS HAVE BUILT A RELATIONSHIP.

HASSAN, YOU STILL FEEL KIND OF PROTECTIVE OVER HER, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, WE HAVE BUILT QUITE A RELATIONSHIP, AND IT IS TRUST, IT HAS TO BE MUTUAL TRUST WITH THIS KIND OF COLLABORATION ON A FILM LIKE THIS.

BUT IT HAS BEEN SORT OF THE HONOR OF A LIFETIME AS WELL TO HAVE SOMEONE WHO IT HAS VERY MUCH BECOME A LITTLE SISTER FIGURE TO ME.

ON THE ROAD.

SHE IS AN AMAZING ROAD WARRIOR WITH ALL THESE FESTIVALS AND EVERYTHING, BUT ALSO, SHE IS JUST SOMEONE I LOOK TO FOR STRENGTH, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, SHE IS PROBABLY MOST -- THE MOST RESILIENT PERSON ON PLANET EARTH.

>> I WANT TO END WITH THIS CLIP, WHICH ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATES HOW BRAVE YOU WERE TO SPEAK, BECAUSE YOU WERE WARNED NOT TO, OR ELSE.

HERE IT IS.

THAT'S [ SPEAKING IN A NON- ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >>> YOU KNOW, THAT SIMPLE DESIRE TO SPEAK FREELY IS SO IMPORTANT, AND YOU CAN SEE IT HAPPENING, UNFOLDING IN SYRIA RIGHT NOW AFTER 50 YEARS OF THAT DICTATORSHIP, AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU FEEL FREE NOW.

>> LAST NIGHT, BY THE WAY, I SAW A SYRIAN VIDEO, I CRIED A LOT.

LIKE I WAS HAPPY AND THEN I CRIED A LOT, TOO.

AND THEN WHEN I WAS FREE, TOO, IT WAS SO NICE, I WAS FEELING SO GREAT BUT IT WAS SAD, TOO, BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE MY FATHER, YEAH.

I THOUGHT WHEN I GO TO MY COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, A ROCK, I CAN BE FREE, I'M GOING TO GO TO HAVE MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER, BUT I DIDN'T HAVE MY MOTHER AND FATHER, TOO.

IT WAS SAD, BUT YOU KNOW, IT IS LIFE, WE HAVE TO JUST KEEP GOING AND WE HAVE TO BE STRONG, I ALL THE TIME SAY.

AND THEN I WANT TO SHARE A GIRL AND A WOMAN'S STORY FOR THE PEOPLE BECAUSE I WANT TO INSPIRE OTHER GIRLS AND OTHER WOMEN, NOT JUST YAZIDI, WE HAVE IN SYRIA FOR EXAMPLE, GAZA, AND THEN UKRAINE, AND THEN LEBANON, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE IRAN WAR, GIRLS AND WOMEN THERE ARE NOT FREE, I WANT TO INSPIRE THEM.

>> WELL, I AM SURE YOU HAVE INSPIRED A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOUR STORY.

SO, MEDIHA AND HASSAN OSWALD, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US ON.

>> AND MEDIHA IS OUT NOW, YOU CAN FIND OUT ABOUT SCREENINGS ONLINE AT WWW.MEDIHA FILM.COM.

>>> AND NOW TO THE UNITED STATES WHERE AN INCOMING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS VOWING TO UNRAVEL PARTS OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CLIMATE LEGACY, THE OUTGOING ENERGY SECRETARY JENNIFER GRANHOLM IS OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE LASTING IMPACT OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT, AND SHE JOINS HARRY TO DISCUSS IT NOW.

>> CHRISTIANE , SECRETARY GRANHOLM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THE PRESIDENT SET OUT SOME VERY AMBITIOUS GOALS, HE WANTED TO BE CUTTING GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS IN HALF BY 2030, REACHING NET ZERO CARBON EMISSIONS BY NO SOONER THAN 2050.

HERE WE ARE AT THE END OF HIS TERM, PROGRESS REPORT, WHERE ARE WE?

>> HE HAD ANOTHER BIG GOAL, TOO, WHICH IS TO GET TO 100% CLEAN ELECTRICITY ON OUR GRID BY 2035.

SO, BY 2030, WE WILL HAVE CUT -- JUST BECAUSE OF THE TWO BASIC LAWS THAT WERE PASSED DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT AND THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW, THOSE TWO BILLS WILL MEAN THAT WE ARE ON A PATH TO CUT BY 40% OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS BY 2030 AND WE WILL BE AT 80% CLEAN ELECTRICITY BY 2030 ON OUR ELECTRIC GRADE.

THAT DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR, OF COURSE, WHAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS DOING SEPARATE FROM THAT, WHAT GOVERNMENTS -- LOCAL AND STATE GOVERNMENTS ARE DOING, SO WE ARE VERY, VERY CONFIDENT AND HONESTLY VERY EXCITED THAT WE HAVE SEEN SO MUCH PROGRESS IN THIS BRIEF FOUR YEARS, THANKS TO THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

>> SO, A LOT OF TIMES, PEOPLE FORGET THAT THE IMPACTS FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION WILL LIKELY BE FELT IN THE NEXT ONE, BECAUSE IT TAKES TIME TO GET THINGS STARTED AND RUNNING, SO WHAT ARE THE KIND OF RIPPLE EFFECTS THAT YOU SEE AMERICANS BENEFITING FROM IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS?

>> THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS ONLY PASSED TWO YEARS AGO, BUT SINCE THAT TIME AND SINCE THE PASSAGE OF THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW, WE HAVE SEEN OVER 900 ANNOUNCEMENTS OF FACTORIES THAT ARE COMING TO THE U.S. OR EXPANDING IN THE U.S. THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS, SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN -- HAVE MOVED TO GROUNDBREAKING SPIRIT SOME OF THEM HAVE MOVED TO RIBBON CUTTINGS WHERE THEY ARE ACTUALLY OPENING UP AND HIRING PEOPLE, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM ARE STILL IN TRACK, SO WE WILL SEE.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THE ANNOUNCEMENTS CONTINUE TO HAPPEN AND CONTINUE TO ROLL OUT.

SO, UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEY WILL SEE A HUGE NUMBER OF RIBBON CUTTINGS, OF PEOPLE BEING HIRED, BECAUSE OF THE LAWS THAT WERE PASSED.

AND YOU KNOW, THAT IS GOOD FOR AMERICA, IT IS GOOD FOR THE PLANET, BECAUSE THOSE PARTICULAR INVESTMENTS, 81%, ARE GOING TO COMMUNITIES THAT ARE BELOW AVERAGE WEEKLY WAGES, AND 86% ARE GOING TO COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BELOW- AVERAGE COLLEGE GRADUATION RATES, SO ACROSS AMERICA, WE ARE GOING TO SEE THE BENEFITS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION BLEED OVER INTO THE NEXT.

>> THERE IS ALSO SOMETIMES A GAP BETWEEN WHAT A POLICY DOES, HOW IT IS FRAMED, VERSUS WHAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY SEE.

AND WE SAW THE SELECTION INFLATION AND THE COST OF EGGS WAS REALLY THE THING ON THE TOP OF MIND FOR SO MANY PEOPLE, AND I THINK ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE IS, OKAY, FINE, YOU HAVE GOT THESE SORT OF BIG IDEAS, BUT WHY IS THE PRICE OF MY ENERGY GOING UP?

RETAIL PRICES UP ABOUT 20% OR SO OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS, AND WHEN WE WOULD SEE THAT TURN THE CORNER AND COME DOWN?

>> WE KNOW THAT DEMAND FOR ENERGY IS INCREASING AND WE DEMAND INCREASES, AND THE GENERATION DOESN'T INCREASE AS FAST, YOU HAVE PRICE INCREASES.

AND THAT IS GOING TO CONTINUE, BECAUSE FIRST, ALL OF THESE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE COMING ONLINE, WHICH WILL REQUIRE A HUGE AMOUNT OF ENERGY FROM OUR GRID.

SECOND, THE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM IS BEING ELECTRIFIED AND THAT MEANS MORE ELECTRICITY DEMAND FROM THE GRADE BUT THIRD, ALL THOSE FACTORIES I'M TALKING ABOUT THEM ALL THAT ECONOMIC ACTIVITY IS GOING TO COST THE DEMAND FOR ELECTRICITY TO RISE.

THIS IS THE QUESTION, HOW CAN WE KEEP UP WITH THAT?

THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT, AGAIN, THESE LAWS HAVE CREATED A HUGE AMOUNT OF INCENTIVE FOR THE BUILDOUT OF CLEAN ELECTRICITY, SO THIS YEAR ALONE, WE WILL BE ADDING 60 GIGAWATTS, WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY 30 HOOVER DAM'S WORTH OF CLEAN POWER TO OUR ELECTRICITY GRID BECAUSE OF THOSE INCENTIVES.

THAT IS MORE THAN DOUBLE WHAT WE HAVE EVER ADDED TO THE GRADE.

THAT TRAJECTORY WILL STILL GO UP.

CLEAN POWER IS THE CHEAPEST FORM OF POWER, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR THE FUEL OF THE SUN OR THE WIND, AND THEREFORE, WE GET MORE CLEAN ENERGY, PRICES WILL BEGIN TO STABILIZE.

BUT IT IS TRUE THAT THE DEMAND WILL CAUSE UPWARD PRESSURE ON PRICING.

IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE ASKED THE HYPERSCALERS WHO WILL BE BUILDING OUT THESE DATA CENTERS TO BRING YOUR OWN POWER.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD OUT A BIG DATA CENTER, BRING THE POWER AND BRING CLEAN POWER WITH IT, SO THAT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR POWER NEEDS.

>> I KNOW WE HAVE A GOAL TO TRY TO MOVE TOWARDS RENEWABLE ENERGY, BUT WHEN WILL THAT MIX SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGED?

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, WE STILL SEEM TO BE IN THE INVESTMENT PHASE.

RENEWABLE STILL ACCOUNTS FOR AN INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION COMPARED TO ALL THE OIL AND NATURAL GAS THAT THE UNITED STATES USES.

SO, AS WE MOVE INTO THESE MORE ENERGY INTENSE TIMES AND PEOPLE HAVE MORE ELECTRIC CARS AND THEY NEED TO PLUG-IN, IS THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF THAT ENERGY STILL GOING TO BE FOSSIL FUEL DRIVEN?

X WELL, FOSSIL FUELS WILL STILL PLAY A PART, CLEARLY.

OUR GOAL IS TO GET TO NET ZERO BY 2050, SO WE HAVE 26 YEARS TO BE ABLE TO GET THERE.

AND AT THE RATE WE ARE GOING, IN TERMS OF ADDING CLEAN POWER, WE WILL BE ABLE TO MEET THAT MOMENT.

WE ALSO HAVE TECHNOLOGIES TO REDUCE THE CARBON EMISSIONS FROM FOSSIL FUELS, AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT AND THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW HAVE BEEN INCENTIVIZING AS WELL.

AS I SAID, WE ARE GOING TO GET TO 80% CLEAN ELECTRICITY ON OUR GRID BY 2030, AND THEN 100% BY 2035.

THAT IS BECAUSE, AGAIN, OF THESE INCENTIVES.

SO, WE ARE MOVING IN THIS DIRECTION AND THESE LAWS, WHICH WERE THE BIGGEST AND MOST -- I DON'T KNOW, THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE ENERGY -- CLEAN ENERGY LOSS IN THE WORLD, CERTAINLY IN THE U.S. HISTORY, BUT IN THE WORLD, TO CAUSE ALL OF THIS INVESTMENT AND ALL OF THIS GENERATION TO COME ONLINE.

SO, PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, AND I DON'T THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE CONGRESS PULL BACK ON THEM, BECAUSE OF THESE 950 SOME ODD FACTORIES.

80% OF THEM ARE IN RED DISTRICTS.

SO, ONCE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS SEE PEOPLE BEING HIRED FOR FUTURE FACING JOBS LIKE BUILDING SOLAR PANELS OR ELECTRIC VEHICLES OR THE BATTERIES FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES, IT IS DIFFICULT TO UNDO THAT.

IT WOULD BE POLITICAL MALPRACTICE, FRANKLY, TO UNDO THAT.

>> THAT IS PROBABLY AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT, GIVEN WHERE THE MONEY HAS GONE, BUT WE ALSO HAVE A PRESIDENT-ELECT WHO HAS SAID IN HIS WORDS HE WANTS TO TERMINATE THE GREEN NEW SCAM & ALL UNSPENT FUNDS FROM THE I.R.A.

AND REDIRECT ENERGY INTO REAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT IS WHAT HE LIKES TO SAY ON TRUTH SOCIAL OR HIS SOCIAL PLATFORMS AND HOW MUCH OF THIS WILL TRANSLATE INTO POLICY, BUT HOW DO YOU ENSURE THAT THE WORK YOU HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS IS NOT OVERTURNED BY A CONGRESS WHICH SEEMS PRETTY HAPPY TO GO WITH THEIR CANDIDATE?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND THE POLITICAL RHETORIC, BUT THE REALITY ON THE GROUND IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO UNDO, SO FOR EXAMPLE, 18 MEMBERS -- REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, HAVE SENT A LETTER TO THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION, SAYING DO NOT UNDO THE INCENTIVES AND THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, BECAUSE OUR DISTRICTS ARE SEEING SO MUCH ACTIVITY AND OUR PEOPLE ARE BENEFITING FROM IT.

ONE PORTION OF THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW AND THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT INCLUDED REBATES TO CITIZENS.

IT GOES THROUGH THE STATES.

39 OF THE 50 STATES HAVE SAID WE WANT THESE PROGRAMS, AND THEY HAVE GOTTEN THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE FUNDS AND PUT IN THEIR APPLICATIONS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, SO IT WILL BE DIFFICULT TO UNDO THOSE, AND WE ARE ALSO MAKING IT -- I MEAN, WE ARE TRYING TO GET AS MUCH OF THE FUNDING OUT THE DOOR AS POSSIBLE.

THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WAS GIVEN 60 NEW PROGRAMS TO ADMINISTER OVER $100 BILLION, 98% OF THOSE PROGRAMS WILL HAVE HAD AT LEAST ONE ROUND OF FUNDING.

ONCE THE FUNDING HAS BEEN COMMITTED, LEGALLY, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDO AS WELL.

SO, BOTH FROM A LEGAL POINT OF VIEW, AS WELL AS A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW, AS WELL AS JUST COMMON SENSE, I MEAN, WE HAVE GOT NOW INDUSTRIAL POLICY THAT IS DOING A LOT OF WHAT THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS BRINGING BACK SUPPLY CHAINS AND MANUFACTURING IN THE UNITED STATES, MAKING SURE WE ARE DOING THE CRITICAL MINERALS FOR THOSE BATTERIES THAT ARE NECESSARY.

ALL OF THIS ECONOMIC ACTIVITY FROM SOUP TO NUTS, UPSTREAM, DOWNSTREAM OF THE ECONOMY, IT IS HAPPENING NOW.

SO, UNDOING THAT WOULD BE REALLY UNWISE.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PROGRAMS AUTHORIZED IN THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS FOR THESE DIFFERENT PIECES OF LEGISLATION, AND THERE HAS BEEN SOME CONCERN WHETHER OR NOT THESE FUNDS ARE GOING OUT THE DOOR TO FAST AND WHETHER THERE ARE ENOUGH CHECKS AND BALANCES.

YOUR OWN OFFICE AND INSPECTOR GENERAL, THEY SAID IN A RECENT REPORT THAT YOU RESCINDED A $100 MILLION INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT AND JOBS ACT GRANT AWARD AFTER YOU FOUND THAT THE GRANTEE WAS UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR EXPORTING EQUIPMENT TO A CHINESE COMPANY.

I MEAN, HOW DO YOU MAKE SURE THAT AS YOU ARE SENDING LARGE SUMS OF MONEY TO DIFFERENT PLACES THAT IT ISN'T GOING INTO THE WRONG HANDS?

>> IT IS IS A GREAT QUESTION.

HAVE A REALLY RIGOROUS PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN SET UP TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE NOT BENEFITING CHINA, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ANY OF THE GRANTS THAT ARE GOING ON.

IT WAS SET UP AT THE TIME -- AT THE START OF THE DEPLOYMENT OF THESE FUNDS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, BUT EVERY AGENCY INSIDE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS REALLY GOT A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR INSPECTOR GENERAL'S TO MAKE SURE THE PROCESSES ARE IN PLACE TO ENSURE THAT NO MONIES ARE MISSPENT, AND THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE DONE.

THERE HAS BEEN NO FINDING OF ANY MISSPENT MONEY.

PART OF THE PROCESS IS TO PULL BACK FUNDS IF YOU FIND OUT LATER ON THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM.

SO, NO TAXPAYER DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SPENT IN A WAY THAT BENEFITS OUR ECONOMIC ADVERSARIES.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TECHNOLOGIES THAT WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND NOW, AND THEN ONE OF THE THINGS THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO TO THE NATIONAL LABS IS INVEST IN RESEARCH OF SOME THINGS THAT WE DON'T YET UNDERSTAND.

AND SO, TRADITIONALLY, GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN THAT RISK WHERE THE PRIVATE SECTOR WOULD NOT, AND I WONDER, HOW DO YOU CONVINCE KIND OF VERY MARKET SENSITIVE PUBLIC AND KIND OF POLITICALLY SENSITIVE PUBLIC THAT IT IS WORTH MAKING INVESTMENTS IN THE STUDY AND PURSUIT OF TECHNOLOGIES OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT NOT DELIVER YOU A RETURN THIS QUARTER OR EVEN THIS YEAR OR THIS DECADE, BUT IT'S STILL IMPORTANT.

>> YEAH, REALLY IMPORTANT.

WE HAVE HAD LONG BIPARTISAN SUPPORT OF OUR LABS, WE HAVE 17 NATIONAL LABS THAT ARE PURSUING THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS OF SCIENCE, TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE THE BEST AND MOST EFFICIENT MATERIALS TO MANUFACTURE THESE PRODUCTS THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE USING TO BRING DOWN THE COSTS.

TO DO MODELING.

WE HAVE THE FASTEST COMPUTERS IN THE WORLD.

IT IS REALLY A COMPETITIVENESS ISSUE.

WE DO NOT WANT TO CEDE THE TERRITORY OF RESEARCH AND DISCOVERY TO OUR COMPETITORS ACROSS THE WORLD.

WE ARE REALLY PROUD OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THE BEST AND -- TOOLS IN THE WORLD FOR RESEARCH AND DISCOVERY.

THAT IS NOT JUST IN THE ENERGY SPACE, THESE SAME TOOLS LIKE THE XO SCALE COMPUTERS, WHICH ARE THE BIGGEST AND FASTEST IN THE WORLD IN THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY LABS, THEY ARE ALSO DISCOVERING WAYS TO CURE PEOPLE OF SIGNIFICANT ILLNESSES, HOPING TO FIND THE BEST STRATEGIES FOR REDUCING -- YOU KNOW, FOR COVID FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WAS PART OF THE VACCINE DISCOVERY, WAS MADE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY LABS, BECAUSE OF OUR TOOLS.

SO, BOTH FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE, A COMPETITIVENESS PERSPECTIVE, AS WELL AS FINDING THE SOLUTIONS TO THE DEEPEST PROBLEMS OF OUR TIME, REALLY IMPORTANT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THE LABS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON OUR WAYS TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF SOME OF THESE CLEAN ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES, SO WE HAVE LAUNCHED A SERIES OF EARTH SHOTS TO BRING DOWN THE COSTS, FOR EXAMPLE, OF CLEAN HYDROGEN OR OFFSHORE FLOATING WIND PLATFORMS OR, YOU KNOW, ENHANCED GEOTHERMAL TECHNOLOGIES.

THESE ARE ALL WAYS THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT, SO MAYBE DOWN THE ROAD, TO YOUR POINT, WE ARE GOING TO SEE THE PRICE DROP BY 90% FOR THESE TECHNOLOGIES, WHICH IN TURN WILL MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE THE POWER WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD.

AND THE FINAL THING I WOULD SAY ABOUT THIS IS OUR LABS -- ONE OF OUR LABS, IT WAS THE FIRST LAB IN THE WORLD TO PROVE THAT WE CAN ACHIEVE FUSION IGNITION.

FUSION IS NUCLEAR -- YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SHOW THE ITEMS TOGETHER, ATOMIC PARTICLES TOGETHER TO ACHIEVE ENERGY, AS OPPOSED TO SPLITTING ADAMS, IF WE CAN ACHIEVE FUSION AT SCALE, THAT IS A HUGE SOLVED FOR OUR CLEAN ENERGY.

IT IS BASICALLY REPLICATING THE SUN ON EARTH IN A WAY THAT IS CONTAINED, BUT PRODUCES NO RADIOACTIVE WASTE.

IT IS REALLY EXCITING, THE BREAKTHROUGHS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN OUR LABS.

IT'S THE PERSON IN WHO IS COMING INTO THE JOB RIGHT AFTER YOU, PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP HAS NOMINATED CHRIS WRIGHT, AN OIL INDUSTRY CEO, THAT IS'S NOMINEE FOR SECRETARY, AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS HE HAS SAID EXPLICITLY IN THE PAST, BEING KIND OF A CLIMATE CHANGE SKEPTIC, HE SAID THERE IS NO CLIMATE CRISIS, AND I WONDER, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT SOME OF THESE STEPS THAT YOUR DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY HAS TAKEN WILL NOT BE ROLLED BACK, WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE TO HIM, JUST TO MAKE IT VERY SIMPLE MATH, TO CONTINUE ON THIS TRAJECTORY?

>> I MEAN, HE COMES FROM THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY, SO HE IS GOING TO BE SUPPORTIVE OF DRILL, BABY, DRILL, AND WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID ON THAT.

I'M SURE THAT'S WHY HE WAS NOMINATED.

BUT ALSO, HE HAS PLAYED A ROLE IN INVESTING IN GEOTHERMAL, WHICH IS EXCITING.

HE HAS SAT ON THE BOARD OF A NUCLEAR STARTUP, THAT IS EXCITING.

I HAVE READ THAT HE HAS DONE SOME WORK IN SOLAR AS WELL, SO IF THE REPUBLICAN STRATEGY -- AS MANY REPUBLICANS WILL SAY, AND ALL OF THE ABOVE STRATEGY, THEN ONE WOULD EXPECT THAT BOTH THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN BUILT AROUND RENEWABLE ENERGIES, AS WELL AS WHAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO ON FOSSIL FUELS, BOTH SIDES MAY COEXIST.

I WILL SAY, I DO HAVE OPTIMISM ABOUT THIS.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN AREAS WHERE WE DO HAVE THIS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, AND THAT TELLS ME THAT A LOT OF THE WORK THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN DOING, A LOT OF THE SUPPORT THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WE HAVE A HUGE -- THE NATIONAL NUCLEAR SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, AND THAT MEANS ALL OF THE NUCLEAR STOCKPILE OCCURS UNDER D.O.E.

'S AMBIT.

THERE IS SUPPORT FOR THAT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

THERE IS SUPPORT FOR OUR LABS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

THERE IS SUPPORT FOR A LOT OF THE CLEAN ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, SO I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT MUCH OF THIS WILL REMAIN.

AND I THINK THAT IT IS TRUE THAT THE SUPPORT OF CONGRESS WILL REMAIN BIPARTISAN FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY.

>> AND THE NUCLEAR SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS UNDER ENERGY, AND THE START TREATY BETWEEN THE U.S. AND RUSSIA, THAT IS ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING ONES, AND THAT IS SUPPOSED TO LAST UNTIL FEBRUARY OF MAYBE NEXT YEAR, '26, SO WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES IF THAT DOES LAPSE?

>> WELL, CLEARLY, WE NEED TO HAVE A GLOBAL NUCLEAR CONTROL SYSTEM, REGIMEN.

AND IT STARTS WITH THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA, ALTHOUGH OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRIES WHO ARE VERY MUCH ACTIVE AS WELL.

BUT IF THE U.S. AND RUSSIA CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT RESPONSIBLE NUCLEAR CAPS, VALIDATION, INSPECTION CAN KEEP -- THAT WE ARE CONFIDENT AS COUNTRIES AS WE HAVE BEEN THAT OUR CONTROL WILL KEEP THE WORLD SAFER, THAT WE HAVE A MUTUALLY -- A MUTUAL INTEREST IN MAKING SURE THAT IT DOESN'T GET OUT OF CONTROL.

SO, BOTH FROM JUST A BILATERAL POINT OF VIEW, BUT ALSO AS AN EXAMPLE ON THE MULTILATERAL FRONT, I THINK THAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO SEE THAT HAPPEN.

AND YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION, THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP WITH PUTIN, HOPEFULLY THEY WILL SEE THE BENEFIT OF RESTARTING NEGOTIATIONS ON THE NEXT NEW START OR WHATEVER THE VERSION IS THAT THEY SEE IS IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, I AM HOPEFUL, BECAUSE I THINK AT THE END OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LAST TIME, THE NEW START AGREEMENT WAS EXTENDED FOR FIVE YEARS IN 2021 BY PRESIDENT BIDEN, BUT AT THE END OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THERE WERE SOME DISCUSSIONS BEGINNING TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO, I AM HOPEFUL THAT REALLY RATIONAL MINDS UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF NUCLEAR SAFETY, NUCLEAR SECURITY, AND CAPS ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

>> ENERGY SECRETARY JENNIFER GRANHOLM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> ENDING ON THAT IMPORTANT NOTE OF HOPE AND RATIONALITY, FINALLY TONIGHT, IF YOU EVER ARE IN BEND, OREGON AND FEEL LIKE YOU'RE BEING WATCHED, YOU WOULDN'T BE WRONG.

SINCE AUGUST, SOMEONE HAS BEEN STICKING THESE GOOGLY EYES ONTO PUBLIC ART SCULPTURES AROUND THE CITY.

ORCHESTRATED BY THE SO-CALLED GOOGLY EYE BANDIT, OTHERWISE INJECTED WITH AN EXTRA DOSE OF LIVELINESS.

PRANK FAVORITES INCLUDE A SIX FOOT SPIRIT AND A DEER THAT LOOKS CAUGHT IN THE HEADLIGHTS, WHILE ALSO ACTUALLY ENJOYING IT.

BUT NOT EVERYONE IS CHUCKLING AT THE WHIMSICAL PLOY.

THE CITY GOVERNMENT WANTS IT TO STOP.

GRUMBLING THAT TAKEN OFF THE GOOGLY EYES IS EXPENSIVE.

THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT MORE THAT CAN BE SAID ABOUT THAT, BUT NOT NOW.

AND THAT IS IT OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.