Homemade & Virtually Untraceable: The Rise of Ghost Guns

>> NOW, IN MADISON, WISCONSIN FAMILIES ARE REELING FROM THAT DEADLY SCHOOL SHOOTING WHICH KILLED THREE PEOPLE AFTER A 15- YEAR-OLD FEMALE STUDENT OPENED FIRE ON MONDAY.

THE LATEST TRAGIC VIOLENCE IN AMERICA AND COMES AS ANOTHER THIS SO-CALLED USE OF GHOST GUNS.

THE NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT IS INVESTIGATING THE POSSIBILITY OF ONE OF THOSE BEING USED IN THE RECENT MURDER OF THE UNITED HEALTHCARE CEO.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS AN EXPERT ON THIS TOPIC.

CHRIS BROWN, PRESIDENT OF THE NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION AND SHE IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO LAY OUT HER ARGUMENT FOR BALANCING SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS WITH GUN REFORM.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

CHRIS BROWN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

EARLIER THIS MONTH WE HAD A FATAL SHOOTING IN NEW YORK CITY THAT CAUGHT NATIONAL ATTENTION BECAUSE THE UNITED HEALTHCARE CEO WAS GUNNED DOWN AS A GHOST GUN.

JUST SET THE TABLE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT KNOW WHAT THESE ARE BUT WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT ABOUT THEM?

>> GHOST GUNS ARE PARTS OF GUNS THAT ARE UNTRACEABLE.

BEFORE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ACTED MOST RECENTLY THEY HAD BEEN SOLD IN KITS WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECKS AT ALL.

JUST TO GIVE YOU A SENSE OF WHAT THAT MEANS.

IT IS LIKE BUYING SOMETHING FROM IKEA EXCEPT EASIER.

SO THERE WERE FOLKS WERE BUYING THESE KIDS WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECK AND PUTTING TOGETHER A FULLY FINISHED FIREARM IN LESS THAN ONE MINUTE.

THESE KIDS HAD PROLIFERATED ACROSS THE COUNTRY UNTIL PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST RECENTLY REQUIRED BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR THESE KINDS OF GHOST GUNS.

>> SO MOST GUNS, THAT YOU GO TO A STORE, DEPARTMENT STORE GUN STORE AND BUY, THEY ALL COME WITH A SERIAL NUMBER THAT IS ENGRAVED?

THAT IS SOMETHING ALL GUN MANUFACTURERS HAVE AGREED ON IF THEY WANT TO SELL WEAPONS IN THE UNITED STATES, RIGHT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

IT IS PART OF THE GUN CONTROL ACT.

THE FEDERAL LAW THAT ESTABLISHED THE SERIALIZATION OF FIREARMS AGAINST THE COUNTRY AND ESTABLISHED THAT A LICENSE IS REQUIRED FROM A LICENSED DEALER IN ORDER TO SELL A FIREARM.

>> SO, IF THESE GUNS, THESE GHOST GUNS DID NOT REQUIRE A SERIAL NUMBER, THERE IS ESSENTIALLY NO WAY TO TRACE WHERE THAT GUN CAME FROM.

IS THERE SOME LEGAL NOTION THAT LOOK, HE HAD GUNS IN THIS COUNTRY BEFORE 1968 BEFORE SERIAL NUMBERS WERE REQUIRED AND THAT IS PART OF OUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT.

>> 100%, YEAH, YOU ARE HITTING ON EXACTLY THE ISSUE.

THE WAY WE THINK OF A GHOST GUN, IT IS A FUTURE CRIME GUN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THESE GUNS.

THESE UN-SERIALIZED GUNS.

FOR EXAMPLE 6 YEARS AGO THERE WERE EIGHT GHOST GUNS RECOVERED, TWO YEARS AGO THERE WERE 538.

SO WE HAVE SEEN A PROLIFERATION OF THESE GUNS USED IN CRIME AND ABSOLUTELY WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAID TO ATF THREE YEARS AGO IS, LOOK, LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF FIREARM FROM 1934 THROUGH 1968.

YES, AFTER THEY FINISHED FIREARM, BUT IF SOMEBODY CAN BUY A GHOST GUN AND A KIT TO PUT TOGETHER A FULLY FINISHED FIREARM IN LESS THAN A MINUTE, THEN THAT KIT NEEDS TO BE REGULATED, JUST LIKE A REGULAR FIREARM AND IT NEEDS TO BE SERIALIZED.

THAT IS WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAID, THAT IS BEING LITIGATED AND BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT RIGHT NOW.

>> WHAT WERE THOSE ARGUMENTS IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT LIKE?

I KNOW THIS IS SORT OF TEA LEAF READING, BUT WHAT IS THE COURT LIKELY TO DO ABOUT IT?

>> IT WAS INTERESTING.

THE SUPREME COURT HAS DECIDED A LOT OF GUN CASES RECENTLY.

AND NOT ALL OF THEM TO OUR LIKING IN TERMS OF PUTTING SAFETY FIRST AND ENDORSING WHAT WE VIEW AS APPROPRIATE IN REGARDS TO THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

IF YOU READ TEA LEAVES AND YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE ASKED BY SOME OF THE MORE CONSERVATIVE JUDGES IS SKEPTICISM OF THE ARGUMENTS FROM THOSE WHO ARE PUSHING OVERTURNING THE RULE.

THEIR STRONGEST ARGUMENT SEEMS TO BE THAT HOBBYISTS BY THESE KITS AND THE LIKE ASSEMBLING FIREARMS AND THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE YOUR OWN FIREARM, BLACKSMITHS DID IT IN COLONIAL AMERICA AND INDIVIDUALS HAVE A SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO PURSUE THESE KINDS OF HOBBIES.

IT DID NOT SEEM THAT ANY OF THE JUSTICES REALLY FELT STRONGLY ABOUT THAT ARGUMENT.

WHEN YOU WEIGH IT AGAINST THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED WITH THESE GHOST GUNS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> SO IS THERE KIND OF, ANY KIND OF A PLACE NOW WHERE THERE IS A RESTRICTION ON YOUR ABILITY TO PRINT THESE THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE?

BECAUSE THE PARTS FROM THESE GUNS CAN COME FROM 3-D PRINTERS THAT ARE YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE NOT ILLEGAL.

>> NO, THAT'S A GOOD POINT, RIGHT?

BECAUSE SOME OF THE REPORTING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR SHOOTER IN NEW YORK INDICATES THAT HE PRINTED AT LEAST PARTS OF THE FIREARM FROM 3-D BLUEPRINTS ONLINE, NOT TECHNICALLY THOSE BLUEPRINTS ARE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE ACCESSED IF YOU HAVE A SPECIAL LICENSE THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE.

HOWEVER, DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A INDIVIDUAL MADE THESE BLUEPRINTS AVAILABLE ONLINE AND WE SOUGHT TO GET THOSE BLUEPRINTS FROM SPREADING ACROSS THE U.S.

EASILY.

THAT WAS LITIGATED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BASICALLY ABANDONED, ALLOWING THESE BLUEPRINTS TO PLAY OPERATE BUT EASY FOR THAT TO HAPPEN AS WE SEE IN THESE BLUEPRINTS AS YOU SEE ARE AVAILABLE TO CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO ARE INDUSTRY ENDS AND TRY AND CIRCUMVENT THE LAW.

THAT IS WHY THEY SUPPORT LEGISLATION PENDING IN CONGRESS THAT HAS BEEN PENDING FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO ENSURE THAT THESE 3-D BLUEPRINTS ARE NOT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE.

IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE.

>> THAT SEEMS LIKE A DIFFICULT TASK.

YOU ARE LITERALLY TRYING TO SAY HOW TO KEEP BLUEPRINTS OFF THE INTERNET.

HOW DO YOU DO THAT.

BECAUSE ANY KIND OF BUMP INTO THE KIND OF FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AS WELL.

THIS IS OUR INFORMATION, WE HAVE ALL THIS INFORMATION THAT EXISTS ONLINE.

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND THAT I BE ABLE TO PUBLISH THAT IF THAT IS THE CASE.

SO HOW DO YOU TRY AND THREAD THE NEEDLE ON THIS WHERE YOU DON'T WANT TO FOUL OFF THE BOTH FIRST AND SECOND AMENDMENTS?

PHILOSOPHY IS ABOUT THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT THAT WE WANT IN THE U.S. AND CERTAINLY THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS PART OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS AS YOU MENTIONED AND SO IS THE FIRST.

AND THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS THAT ARE OVERARCHING RIGHTS THAT GIVE LIFE TO ALL OF THESE OTHER RIGHTS.

WE DON'T WANT A SECOND AMENDMENT THAT SWALLOWS EVERY OTHER RIGHT THAT WE AMERICANS HOLD DEAR.

PART OF THIS IS UNDERSTOOD THROUGH EVERY WEIGHING IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS.

I CAN'T GO TO THE THEATER AND YELL FIRE, RIGHT?

THAT HAS LONG BEEN UNDERSTOOD.

SO WE HAVE TO BALANCE RIGHTS AND EASE OF TECHNOLOGY AND ALL OF THESE BENEFITS WITH THE REAL SOCIAL HARMS THAT CAN COME WITH CERTAIN ASPECTS AND CERTAINLY THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE WHERE WE WOULD SAY PUBLIC INTEREST SHOULD NOT BE OPERATING 3-D PRINTING OF FIREARM PARTS.

>> THE ATF IS CURRENTLY ENFORCING THIS IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT, DOES THAT GO FAR ENOUGH?

>> NO.

LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT THE RULE DID.

THE RULE SAID THAT GHOST GUN KIDS HAVE TO BE SUBJECT TO A BACKGROUND CHECK BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHAT WE WERE SEEING HIS HUGE NUMBERS OF THESE UN- SERIALIZED KITS, GUNS, SHOWING UP ON CRIME SCENES.

WHY IS THAT?

BECAUSE IF YOU CAN'T PASS A BACKGROUND CHECK, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

YOU ARE GOING TO BUY A KIT AND ASSEMBLE A GUN IN A FEW MINUTES AND EVEN MAKE MONEY OFF OF DOING THAT.

SO THEY SAID HAS TO BE SUBJECT TO A BACKGROUND CHECK AND THE KIDS HAVE TO BE SERIALIZED.

SO IF THEY SHOW UP IN A CRIME, LAW ENFORCEMENT CAN DO ITS JOB.

WHEN IT DIDN'T DO IS REQUIRE A LICENSE PURCHASE ONE OF THESE KITS AND ENSURE THERE IS NO SECONDARY MARKET FOR THESE GHOST GUN KIDS IN THAT PROCESS, RIGHT?

TO BASICALLY MAKE IT THAT IT IS FULLY REGULATED.

THAT DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE JOE BIDEN WAS PULLING A THREAD THROUGH A VERY SMALL NEEDLE.

HIS AUTHORITY IN ORDER TO DO THIS WAS FOUND NOT A NEW LAW, BUT IN THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT.

CONGRESS, NEEDS TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM AND REALIZE 50 YEARS HAVE PASSED AND PASS LEGISLATION TO ENSURE ATF HAS FULL AUTHORITY TO REGULATE THIS MARKET.

ONLY THEN CAN WE BE SURE THAT WE HAVE A FULLY FUNCTIONAL SYSTEM WHICH BY THE WAY WE JUST FINISHED A POLL.

80% OF ALL AMERICANS BELIEVE WE NEED A STRONGER BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM IN THESE GHOST GUNS ARE A PART OF THAT.

>> DO WE HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY OF THESE TYPES OF WEAPONS EXIST TODAY?

BECAUSE IF IT IS NOT SERIALIZED, IF IT DOES NOT GO CHANNEL SO TO SPEAK AND IF THEY CAN BE PRINTED IN PARTS AROUND THE COUNTRY OR THE WORLD, HOW DO WE GOT A HANDLE ON HOW MANY THERE ARE?

>> IT IS VERY, VERY HARD.

IT IS NOT EASY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

WHAT WE DO KNOW IS WE HAVE SEEN A HUGE SPIKE, NOT JUST IN THE BALTIMORE EXAMPLE BUT IN EVERY CITY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WE HAVE SEEN HUGE SPIKES UP UNTIL THIS YEAR WHEN THE GHOST GUN RULE WENT INTO EFFECT.

WE SAW SOME OF THESE NUMBERS OF GHOST GUN RECOVERIES CUT IN HALF.

SO THE ROLE IS WORKING, BUT JUST TO GIVE YOU A SENSE OF SCOPE AND SCALE, FOUR YEARS AGO IN CALIFORNIA, I THINK IT WAS FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO.

40%, 40% OF ALL GUNS RECOVERED IN CRIME, IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WERE GHOST GUNS.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T HAVE THE INFORMATION BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY A BLACK MARKET FOR FIREARMS IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT THAT GIVES YOU SOME SENSE OF PERSONALITY AND THE EXPLOSION OF THESE FIREARMS WITHOUT APPROPRIATE REGULATION.

>> I WOULD SUSPECT AND CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, GUN ENTHUSIASTS ARE LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, THEY WOULDN'T BE FOR GHOST GUNS AS WELL.

>> GENERALLY SPEAKING FOR THOSE AND I WILL TELL YOU ESPECIALLY THOSE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO GHOST GUNS.

WE ACTUALLY HAVE MANY CASES WHERE WE REPRESENT BOTH THE CIVILIAN AND LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO HAVE BEEN GUNNED DOWN WITH THESE TYPES OF FIREARMS.

SO YES, IT IS A VERY, VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION THAT ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT THERE IS A SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS GHOST GUNS AND THERE SHOULD BE NO REGULATION, ALMOST NOBODY BELIEVES THAT.

AND THAT INCLUDES TRUMP VOTERS BY THE WAY BASED ON THE POLLS WE HAVE.

OVER 70% OF TRUMP VOTERS WANT MORE REGULATIONS AROUND FIREARMS.

HE WAS NOT ELECTED WITH A MANDATE TO STRIP A REVERSE THESE KINDS OF PUBLIC SAFETY LAWS.

>> EARLIER THIS YEAR PRESIDENT TRUMP VOWED TO UNDO ANY EFFORTS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD MADE WHEN IT CAME TO GUN RESTRICTIONS.

HOW WOULD YOU ADVISE THE INCOMING PRESIDENT?

>> WHAT I SAW AND ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL WHEN I WATCHED PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAK AND CERTAINLY IF I LOOK BACK AT SOME OF THE STATEMENTS HE MADE IN HIS FIRST TERM AS PRESIDENT, WHAT IS REALLY COMMUNICATING IS A DESIRE TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS EASY ACCESS TO FIREARMS, APPROPRIATELY REGULATED THOUGH, AND HE HAS OFTEN TALKED ABOUT THAT SO PEOPLE CAN OFTEN EXERCISE OR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

I HAVE NEVER HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAY THAT WE SHOULD MAKE IT EASIER FOR CRIMINALS TO ACCESS FIREARMS OR FIREARM PARTS AND THAT IS WHAT HE WOULD BE DOING IF HE OVERTURNED HIS REGULATIONS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PUT INTO EFFECT THAT DENYING CRIMINALS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

EASY ACCESS TO UNREGULATED, AND SERIALIZED FIREARMS.

I THINK IT IS A PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD PROPOSITION AND ONE THAT AMERICANS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY REALLY BELIEVE IN.

THEY WANT A SYSTEM THAT WORKS.

THAT IS EFFECTIVE.

WE HAVE GONE A LONG WAY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

>> OFTEN TIMES, WHEN THERE ARE POLICIES THAT ROLLOUT.

THERE IS KIND OF A LEGISLATIVE APPROACH.

THE JUDICIAL APPROACH AND THEN THE OLD-FASHIONED KIND OF LOBBYING THAT HAPPENS.

WE ARE GUN MANUFACTURERS IN THIS CONVERSATION?

>> THAT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

SO, LEGACY MANUFACTURERS BEHIND THE SCENES, AT LEAST INDICATE TO US THAT THEY AREN'T SUPPORTIVE OF GHOST GUNS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY HOW YOUR HATING YOUR FINGER ON AN ISSUE, IT IMPACTS THE MARKET.

BUT SOME OF THE LEGACY MANUFACTURERS HAVE GONE TO THE GHOST GUN SPACE AND THEY ARE HELPING TO FINANCE OR HELP PROLIFERATE SOME OF THESE KITS THAT WERE MADE AVAILABLE.

NOW, A LOT OF THEM FRANKLY HAVE MOVED ON TO OTHER THINGS WITH THE BIDEN RULE.

BECAUSE WE HAVE SHUT DOWN, THEY HAVE LITIGATED A CASE.

I THOUGHT ABOUT BALTIMORE AND THE PROLIFERATION OF FIREARMS.

WE SHUT DOWN ONE OF THE MAJOR GHOST GUN DEALERS.

POLYMER 80 THAT WAS SUPPLYING VAST MAJORITY OF GUNS RECOVERED IN ULTIMA.

I THINK A LOT OF THE TIME THE AREN'T VOCAL ABOUT IT BUT THEY TOO ARE THE LEGACY MANUFACTURERS WOULD SUPPORT THE LEGAL MARKET FOR FIREARMS ARE NOT THE ILLEGAL MARKET FOR FIREARMS.

>> WORKING FOR DECADES NOW ON THIS TOPIC IN THIS ISSUE AND YOU KNOW, I HOSTED A CONVERSATION AFTERWARDS INCLUDING AT THE TIME PRESIDENT BIDEN AND RESIZING COLLECTIVELY WAS GOING TO BE CHANGED, THE DEATH OF 20 CHILDREN AND SIX ADULTS WOULD DO IT.

RIGHT?

BUT I WONDER, DO YOU SEE ANY KIND OF HOPE OF STRUCTURAL CHANGE HAPPENING IN THE HALLS OF CONGRESS OR ANY OTHER WAY WHERE WE CAN GET TOWARD MORE SENSIBLE REFORM THAT DOES THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY AND IT SEEMED TO INDICATE SUPPORT?

>> I DO HAVE AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO IT AS A MOM.

I BELIEVE WE, AS AMERICANS ARE ENTITLED TO BE ABLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET, TO DROP OFF HER KIDS US WILL NOT BE AFRAID THEY WILL BE SHOT.

THAT SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL THING TO ME, BUT I DO WANT TO NOTE AFTER THE AGONY OF SANDY HOOK IT TOOK QUITE LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN DIDN'T SIGN ONE OF THE MOST DRAMATIC FEDERAL AND THAT WAS MORE THAN 15 REPUBLICANS IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE SAYING YES TO EXPANDING BACKGROUND CHECKS.

TO ENSURE THERE IS FEDERAL FUNDING FOR EXTREME PROTECTION LAWS AND ENSURE THERE IS FEDERAL FUNDING FOR COMMUNITY VIOLENCE INTERVENTION.

BECAUSE BACK IN BRAND COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE HUGE EARLY AND DESPERATELY IMPACTED BY GUN VIOLENCE.

SO YOU HAVE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS HERE BUT THERE IS MUCH MORE TO DO BECAUSE SADLY TODAY THESE GHOST GUN KITS ARE A BIG KILLER.

THERE ARE MANY THINGS WE CAN DO BECAUSE AMERICANS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY BELIEVE IN IS KIND OF VERY COMMONSENSE THINGS INCLUDING A VERY BASIC EXPANSION OF THE BRADY LAW.

RIGHT?

THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

>> CHRIS BROWN, FROM THE BRADY UNITED AGAINST GUN VIOLENCE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.