December 18, 2024

>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I FELT THAT THIS IS NOT A MOVEMENT THAT IS GOING TO LOSE ITS STRENGTH AND IT IS STILL GOING STRONG BECAUSE OUR WOMEN ARE VERY STRONG.

>> A WORLD EXCLUSIVE WITH THE NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE IMPRISONED IN IRAN.

THE TEMPORARY RELEASE GIVES ME HER BRAVE MESSAGE TO THE WOMEN OF THE COUNTRY.

>> I GAVE WARNING THAT IF THESE HOSTAGES AREN'T BACK HOME BY THAT DATE, ALL HELL WILL BREAK OUT.

>> GAZA, SYRIA, UKRAINE, A WORLD OF PROBLEM FOR THE INCOMING PRESIDENT AND I PUT THEM TO HIS FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY, MARK ESPER.

AND -- >> THIS HAS PROVIDED A MOMENT FOR I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE TO STEP BACK AND THINK, WHY DO WE HAVE A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT WORKS LIKE THIS?

>> MURDER, MEANS, AND CORPORATE GREED.

WHAT THE HEALTH OF A CEO SAYS ABOUT AMERICA.

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

IN IRAN THE RELENTLESS CRACKDOWN ON PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE THE REGIME HAS EXPANDED TO THOSE SPEAKING OUT ABOUT IRAN'S FAILURE TO SUPPORT ITS LONGTIME SYRIA.

STILL, THERE ARE THOSE BRAVELY SPEAKING OUT ON ISSUES OF HUMAN RIGHTS, DEMOCRACY, AND WOMEN'S EQUALITY.

NARGES MOHAMMADI WHO HAS NOW BEEN IMPRISONED FOR THE BETTER PART OF THE LAST 20 YEARS.

THE STATE HAS ACCUSED HER OF ACTING AGAINST NATIONAL SECURITY BUT SHE HAS CONTINUED TO BE A VOICE FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY AT GREAT PERSONAL RISK AND SACRIFICE.

AND NOW IN A WORLD EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, SHE'S MADE THE EXTRAORDINARY DECISION TO SPEAK TO US WITH HER MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD, AND SHE'S DOING SO WHILE OUT ON A TEMPORARY RELEASE FROM PRISON ON MEDICAL GROUNDS.

SHE'S DUE TO BE SENT BACK THERE SOON.

NARGES MOHAMMADI JOINED ME FROM HER HOME FOR THIS CONVERSATION.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> HOW ARE YOU FEELING?

YOU WERE RELEASED FROM PRISON FOR ABOUT THREE WEEKS IN ORDER TO RECOVER FROM AN OPERATION.

HOW ARE YOU FEELING?

>> Translator: WHEN I WAS LEAVING PRISON, SINCE I WAS LEAVING BEHIND MY INMATES AND I'VE BEEN GIVEN RELEASE, I WAS, I WAS FEELING VERY SAD.

I HAD A HEAVY HEART.

AND I THOUGHT I WAS LEAVING BEHIND A PART OF ME EVEN THOUGH IT WAS JUST FOR A FEW DAYS.

BUT THE MOMENT THEY LET ME IN THE AMBULANCE, AND I SAW THE STREETS, I FELT LIBERATED.

AND I FELT I COULD SEE A WOMAN WHO WAS CROSSING THE ROAD WITHOUT A HEAD SCARF.

AND THEY RECOGNIZED ME.

AND THEY GREETED ME AND I STARTED CHANTING, WOMAN, LIFE, FREEDOM.

AND I FELT THAT THIS IS NOT A MOVEMENT THAT IS GOING TO LOSE ITS STRENGTH AND IT IS STILL GOING STRONG BECAUSE OUR WOMEN ARE VERY STRONG.

AND I WAS FILLED WITH JOY TO SEE OUR WOMEN LIKE THAT.

AND I GREETED FREEDOM BECAUSE I REALIZED I WAS NOT SURROUNDED BY GUARDS AND I COULD LEAVE PRISON.

BUT IT WAS, I HAD A KIND OF DUAL FEELING ABOUT LEAVING PRISON.

>> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

I'M ALSO, I MEAN, I'M JUST SO AMAZED THAT YOU WOULD BE LEAVING PRISON FOR ONLY A PERIOD OF TIME.

YOU'RE JAILED FOR DEFYING THE STATE AND YET YOU STILL COME OUT AND YOU SHOUT THE SLOGAN, WOMAN, LIFE, FREEDOM.

YOU'RE ON AN INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION INTERVIEW RIGHT NOW THAT WILL BE SHOWN ALL OVER THE WORLD AND IN THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU'RE STILL STANDING UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN.

ARE YOU NOT AFRAID OF THE CONSEQUENCES?

>> Translator: I HAVE BEEN TRIED FOR NINE TIMES, AND THEY CONTINUE TO CONVICT ME OF VARIOUS CRIMES.

BUT I THINK THE PATH THAT I HAVE CHOSEN WILL NEVER STOP.

NOT EVEN THE PRISON WALLS, AND ALL THE CONVICTIONS CAN EVER STOP ME.

AND I FEEL THAT ALONGSIDE THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, I HAVE TO GO TOWARD DEMOCRACY AND EQUALITY AND I HOPE THAT WE WILL SEE VICTORY AND IT MAY NOT BE AN EASY PATH.

BUT I AM DETERMINED IN MY BELIEF BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS THAT EXIST IN MY COUNTRY, IRAN.

>> NARGES, WE ARE WATCHING THE FALL OF THE ASSAD REGIME AND THE EVIDENCE OF WHAT WAS LEFT BEHIND IN HIS DUNGEONS, HIS PRISONS.

THE TORTURE AND THE KILLINGS OF POLITICAL PRISONERS OVER MANY, MANY YEARS.

SO I WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU, WHAT IS YOUR CONDITION?

YOU'RE A POLITICAL PRISONER IN JAIL IN IRAN.

HOW ARE YOU TREATED THERE?

I UNDERSTAND YOU SAID THAT YOU'VE BEEN BEATEN UP.

YOU HAVE HAD MULTIPLE HEART ATTACKS.

YOU'RE A YOUNG WOMAN BUT NONETHELESS, YOU'VE HAD MULTIPLE HEART ATTACKS.

HOW WERE YOU TREATED?

>> Translator: I DO NOT WANT TO COMPARE THE PRISONS OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN WITH THOSE OF THE ASSAD REGIME BECAUSE ASSAD HAS BEEN TOPPLED AND NOW THE DUNGEONS HAVE BEEN OPENED AND PEOPLE HAVE SEEN HOW THE SITUATION WAS.

WHEREAS THE PRISONS IN IRAN, KURDISTAN AND OTHER PLACES, THE DOORS ARE STILL LOCKED AND WE HAVE NO INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE.

SO I CAN SPEAK ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES IN THE PRISON.

THE EXPERIENCE WE HAD IN THE IRGC CELLS AND THE SECURITY CELLS AND THE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, THEY ARE VERY, VERY TRAGIC EXPERIENCES.

THERE HAVE BEEN PRISONERS WHO HAVE BEEN ISOLATED FROM EVERYONE.

THEY HAVE BEEN IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

THEY HAVE BEEN ISOLATED FROM SOCIETY AND THEY'RE EVEN UNAWARE OF THEIR OWN CASE FILES.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR A LONG TIME AS A RESULT, THEY HAVE SUFFERED FROM PHYSICAL AND STILL SUFFERING.

AND THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DIED IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND NOBODY KNOWS WHAT HAS HAPPENED, AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEIR CASE FILES.

THERE ARE MANY SUCH FILES, NOT JUST A FEW.

SO WE'VE BEEN WITNESSING VERY DISCONCERTING SITUATIONS.

PERHAPS ONCE THEY OPEN PRISON DOORS IN IRAN, WE WILL SEE MUCH MORE.

>> YOU SPECIFICALLY, HAVE YOU BEEN PHYSICALLY ABUSED?

YOUR LAWYER SAYS YOU'VE BEEN BEATEN UP, BADLY BEATEN.

>> Translator: YES.

ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS I WAS BEATEN UP.

IN ABOUT 2019, FROM 1:30 TO 5:30 IN THE AFTERNOON WHEN I WAS IN THE PRISON YARD, I WAS BEATEN UP VERY BADLY.

MY WHOLE BODY WAS COVERED IN BRUISES AND INJURIES.

I URGED THEM TO SEND DOCTORS IN.

AND THERE WERE 24 BRUISES ON MY BODY AND I WAS A BEATEN UP BY THE GUARDS.

UNFORTUNATELY, MY COMPLAINTS FELL ON DEAF EARS AND I WAS CONVICTED AGAIN.

I WAS SENT BACK TO THE PRISON WHERE RECENTLY, TWO -- WE CAMPAIGNED AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY AND WE STARTED CHANTING SLOGANS BECAUSE THEY CARRIED OUT A DEATH PENALTY AND WE MANAGED TO MAKE OUR WAY TO THE PRISON YARD AND IT WAS THEN THAT THE MALE PRISON GUARDS CAME AND STOOD THERE.

AND ONCE WE STARTED CHANTING LOUDLY, THEY STARTED HITTING ME ON THE CHEST.

I WAS SUPPOSED TO GO FOR AN ANGIOGRAPHY.

MY ARTERIES WERE BLOCKED.

YET THEY WERE BEATING ME ON MY CHEST.

THAT WAS NOT ACCIDENTAL.

IT WAS DELIBERATE ON THEIR PART.

>> NARGES, YOU HAVE NOT SEEN YOUR TWINS, YOUR CHILDREN, SINCE THEY WERE 9 YEARS OLD.

THAT WAS BACK IN 2015.

I KNOW YOU FACETIME THEM BECAUSE WE HAVE THE FOOTAGE WHEN YOU CAME OUT JUST NOW AND TALKED TO THEM.

YOU WERE ABLE TO SPEAK TO THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THREE YEARS RECENTLY.

YOUR SON CALLED THIS CONVERSATION INTENSE.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TO TALK TO YOUR CHILDREN AGAIN AFTER THREE YEARS?

>> Translator: AT THE THREE-YEAR PERIOD FOR YOU MAY NOT BE TOO LONG.

BUT FOR ME, THE CHANGES I HAD SEEN IN THESE THREE YEARS, I WAS AMAZED.

I WAS A BIT SHOCKED.

I FELT THAT THEY HAD REALLY GROWN UP.

AND I FELT THAT, I LOST A LONG PERIOD OF BEING WITH THEM.

BECAUSE WHEN I LEFT IRAN, THEY WERE 8 1/2 YEARS OLD.

I REMEMBER, I HUGGED THEM.

AND WE SANG A REVOLUTIONARY SONG TOGETHER.

AND THAT WAS TEN YEARS AGO.

BUT THREE YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS ON TEMPORARY RELEASE FOR A YEAR, I FELT THERE WAS A GAP THAT APPEARED IN OUR RELATIONSHIP AND I FELT THEY PROBABLY FELT THE SAME.

BUT I COULD REALLY, I COULD SEE THE CHANGE IN THEM.

>> YEAH.

AND I'VE SPOKEN TO THEM.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW THAT THEY ACCEPTED YOUR NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

THEY READ A MESSAGE FROM YOU FROM JAIL.

AND I SPOKE TO THEM.

THIS IS WHAT IANA TOLD ME WHEN .

WITH HER IN JANUARY.

>> Translator: OBVIOUSLY WITH A LITTLE DAY TO DAY THINGS, I WOULD HAVE REALLY LIKED MY MOTHER TO BE HERE, TO SHOW ME HOW TO PUT ON MAKE-UP, TEENAGER THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO IT IS HARD TO LIVE WITHOUT HER.

NOTHING REPLACES THE PRESENCE OF YOUR MOTHER.

BUT I'M STILL VERY PROUD OF HER AND I'M VERY HAPPY THAT SHE CHOSE TO FIGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN IRAN.

THAT SHE HAS DEDICATED HER LIFE TO THIS.

IT IS AN HONOR TO BE HER DAUGHTER BECAUSE I ADMIRE HER A LOT.

>> NARGES, SHE ALSO AM I HOPE TO SEE MY MOTHER AT LEAST ONCE AGAIN IN MY LIFE.

HOW DO YOU RECKON WITH THOSE WORDS FROM YOUR DAUGHTER?

>> Translator: ON MANY OCCASIONS, WHEN I WAS IN PRISON, I FELT THE CHALLENGE OF MOTHERHOOD VERSUS BEING A HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST.

I ENDURED MANY HARD TIMES THINKING ABOUT THEM.

NOW THAT I LISTEN TO WHAT KIANA THAT, AGAIN, I PICTURE THEM.

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN NEITHER MYSELF NOR THEIR FATHER WERE PRESENT IN THEIR LIVES AND THEY WERE LIVING IN IRAN ON THEIR OWN.

THEY WERE LIVING IN FRANCE AND GOING TO SCHOOL AND WHEN THEY REACHED PUBERTY.

THE EXPERIENCES THEY HAD WHEN THEY NEEDED ME AS A MOTHER, BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WILL FORGIVE ME OR NOT.

OF COURSE, WHEN I SPOKE TO THEM THEY SAID, WE ARE PROUD OF YOU AND WE SUPPORT YOU.

BUT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, I FEEL THAT THESE CHILDREN HAVE BOTTLED UP SO MUCH AND THEY HAVE ENDURED SO MUCH HARDSHIP AND MAYBE WORDS CAN'T EXPRESS OR MAKE UP FOR THIS LOSS.

AND I AM REALLY, IN TWO MINDS.

I DO NOT KNOW WHEN THEY SAY WE FORGIVE YOU, WHETHER THEY WILL EVER FORGIVE ME, OR WILL THEY EVER, FOREVER HAVE ALL THIS HARDSHIP IN THEM.

I HOPE THAT ONE DAY I WILL MEET THEM IN PERSON.

I'LL BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT IN IRAN WE LIVED IN SUCH A PREDICAMENT THAT WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE AND WE HAD TO CHOOSE THIS PATH TO ACHIEVE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY.

>> IT'S A HUGE, HUGE SACRIFICE THAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ARE MAKING.

HOW IS YOUR MENTAL HEALTH?

YOUR SPIRITS?

YOU'RE GOING BACK TO PRISON.

YOU HAVE A THREE-WEEK FURLOUGH FOR RECOVERY FROM THIS OPERATION.

YOU, YOUR LAWYER, YOUR SUPPORTERS, WANT YOU TO HAVE MUCH, MUCH LONGER OUT.

HOW DO YOU COPE IN PRISON?

YOU AND THE OTHER WOMEN SEPARATED FROM CHILDREN, LOVERS, HUSBANDS, FAMILY?

>> Translator: LOOK, LIFE CONTINUES IN PRISON AND I COULD ELABORATE ABOUT LIFE IN PRISON BECAUSE IT COULD BE MAYBE A BIT DIFFICULT FOR YOUR AUDIENCE TO UNDERSTAND.

YOU HAVE TO DEFINE LIFE IN PRISON THROUGH PERSEVERANCE AND RESILIENCE.

THAT'S HOW YOU CAN DEFINE IT.

IF YOU HAVE THAT RESILIENCE IN YOU, YOU CAN BE SURE THAT YOU AS A PRISONER, YOU CAN MAKE SOME KIND OF LIFE FOR YOURSELF IN IRAN, AND THE IRANIAN PRISON.

ESPECIALLY AFTER THE UPRISING OF 2022.

WOMEN HAVE BECOME MORE RESISTANT.

THEY'VE BECOME MORE RESILIENT.

THEY'VE BECOME MUCH STRONGER SINCE THAT UPRISING.

THOSE WOMEN HAVE SHOWN THEIR RESISTANCE BY COMING TO STREET AND THE VERY WOMEN HAVE ENDED UP IN PRISON AND THEY'RE CONTINUING THAT RESISTANCE, ALBEIT FROM WITHIN PRISON WALLS.

SO I CAN SAY CONFIDENTLY THAT LIFE IN PRISON CONTINUES ITS MOMENTUM.

I DON'T MEAN THAT LIFE IN PRISON IS NORMAL.

NO.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN.

NOR DO I MEAN THAT IT IS THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS ALLOWING US TO HAVE SOME SEMBLANCE OF NORMALITY WITHIN PRISON WALLS AND LIVE A KIND OF A NORMAL LIFE.

NO.

IT'S THANKS TO THE STRENGTH OF THE WOMEN.

THEIR MOTIVATION THAT WE HAVE ADOPTED SOME KIND OF NORMAL LIFESTYLE WITHIN THE PRISON WALLS.

WE CONTINUE TO BE MOTIVATED.

WE CONTINUE TO HAVE HOPE.

WE CONTINUE TO HAVE OUR RESILIENCE.

LOOK, TWO OF MY INMATES ARE ON DEATH ROW AT THE MOMENT.

BUT EVEN THOSE FACING HEAVY SENTENCES, AND I CAN SEE FROM EXPERIENCE IN OUR WARD, WE HAVE PRISONERS WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED AND THEY'RE FACING PRISON TERMS OF 10 TO 15 YEARS.

SOME ARE ON DEATH ROW.

THEY'RE KEEPING THEIR SPIRITS VERY HIGH.

THEY'RE CREATING ROLE MODELS.

THEY'RE MODELS OF A LIFE BASED ON CREATIVITY.

THEY'RE CHANGING PRISON TO ANTI-PRISON.

THE WALLS OF THE PRISON IS, HAS CRACKED BECAUSE OF THE CHANCE OF THESE WOMEN.

THAT'S HOW I FEEL THAT THEY ARE BEING CRACKED.

AFTER THE DEATH, WE DECIDED TO GO TO THE PRISON YARD AND CREATE SOME KIND OF DISORDER.

IT WAS MIDNIGHT.

AND WE WERE WARNED BY PRISON OFFICIALS TO GO BACK TO OUR CELLS.

AND THEY SAY, IF YOU DO NOT RETURN TO YOUR CELLS, WE WILL FORCEFULLY RETURN YOU TO YOUR CELLS.

AND MANY OF MY INMATES, THEY DECLARED THAT, NO, WE WILL RESIST.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO RESIST.

THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO SAY.

THAT WE ARE INSIDE PRISON, OR OUTSIDE PRISON.

I SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND MY FELLOW INMATES.

WE WILL CONTINUE THIS LIFE.

>> THOSE ARE REAL STRONG WORDS.

THEY'RE FIGHTING WORDS.

I WANT TO END BY READING WHAT YOU SENT OUT OF PRISON FOR YOUR KIDS TO READ AT THE NOBEL CEREMONY LAST YEAR.

YOU WROTE IN PART, I WRITE THIS MESSAGE FROM BEHIND THE HIGH, COLD WALLS OF A PRISON.

THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WITH PERSEVERANCE WILL OVERCOME REPRESSION AND AUTHORITARIANISM.

I KNOW YOU STILL BELIEVE THIS BECAUSE YOU JUST SAID IT.

DO YOU THINK YOU WILL BE RELEASED FROM PRISON?

>> Translator: I DON'T THINK ABOUT THAT VERY MUCH.

WHETHER I AM INSIDE OR OUTSIDE OF IT.

MY GOAL IS VERY CLEAR.

UNTIL WE ACHIEVE DEMOCRACY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO STOP.

WE WANT FREEDOM AND EQUALITY AND I KNOW WE WILL ACHIEVE THAT.

SO WHICHEVER SIDE OF THE WALL IS ON, I WILL CONTINUE MY STRUGGLE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE AUTHORITIES WILL DO TO YOU AFTER THIS INTERVIEW?

>> Translator: I AM NOT AT ALL WORRIED ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS INTERVIEW BECAUSE IN THE PAST YEAR, ESPECIALLY AFTER BEING AWARDED A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, THEY ACTUALLY INCREASED THE HARDSHIP AGAINST ME IN PRISON.

THEY EVEN TOOK MY MOBILE PHONE AWAY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT MY STATEMENT TO LEAVE THE PRISON.

BUT I MANAGED TO SENT IT OUT AND I KNEW I WOULD BE PUNISHED FOR SENDING THESE STATEMENTS OUT.

SOME OF MY MEETINGS, EVEN THREE TIMES, MY LAWYER WANTED TO MEET ME AND THEY DENIED HIM THIS MEETING WHICH IS ACTUALLY ILLEGAL.

IT IS MY LEGAL RIGHT.

WHEN MY FATHER PASSED AWAY, THEY DID NOT EVEN ALLOW ME TO TELEPHONE MY BROTHER WHO LIVES IN IRAN TO PHONE AND CONVEY MY CONDOLENCES TO HIM.

IN THE PAST TWO YEARS.

I'VE BEEN GIVEN PRISON TERMS.

I HAVE PASSED YOU THIS ALL THESE STAGES.

ALL THESE PHASES.

AND WHATEVER PUNISHMENT THEY IMPOSE ON ME, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

I HAVE MY BELIEF.

I AM STANDING FIRM AND I AM CHANTING AGAINST DEATH PENALTY.

I AM A PACIFIST.

I AM A WOMAN WHO WANTS TO REALIZE WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN IRAN.

SO I THINK THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE I SHOULD BE.

>> ONE FINAL QUESTION.

YOU'RE WRITING A MEMOIR.

IS THAT RIGHT?

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEND TO THE WORLD IN YOUR BOOK?

>> Translator: LOOK, THIS IS NOT THE MEMOIRS OF AN INDIVIDUAL.

I HAVE TRIED TO ILLUSTRATE THE CHANGES AND DEVELOPMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKING PLACE IN IRANIAN SOCIETY AND WHAT IRANIAN SOCIETY HAS WITNESSED, ESPECIALLY IN REGARD TO WOMEN.

MY MEMOIR IS AN ATTEMPT BY ME TO SHOW WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN IRAN IN THE PAST DECADES.

THE WOMEN ARE THE ONES SUBJECTED TO THE MOST REPRESSION IN THE COUNTRY.

THEY HAVE RESISTED NEVERTHELESS.

IT WAS RESISTANT NOT ONLY TO THE GOVERNMENT BUT THE AGE- OLD TRADITIONS.

IN IRAN AND COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN GENERAL.

THESE WOMEN HAVE PAID A SUBSTANTIAL PRICE FOR THAT.

IT HAS BEEN A RESISTANCE ACCOMPANIED BY HOPE FOR A BRIGHT FUTURE.

THE WOMEN HAVE BEEN TRYING TO KEEP THE FLAMES OF THIS HOPE ALIVE AT LEAST IN THEIR HEARTS.

EVEN IF THEY'VE BEEN UNABLE TO EXPRESS IT.

THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO SHOW HOW THE SPARKS OF ACTIVISM FOR HUMAN RIGHTS HAS MANAGED TO OVERCOME THE SUPPRESSION AND SPREAD THE HOPE IN SOCIETY.

THAT IS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE.

IT IS MY ATTEMPT TO SHOW THAT THE STRUGGLES, THIS IS THE STRUGGLES OF A NATION.

WE ARE WOMEN DOING OUR UTMOST TO ACHIEVE DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM, EQUALITY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS HISTORY OF THE STRUGGLES OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, YOU CAN SEE THE SYSTEM OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, IRAN HAS NO CAPACITY FOR EQUALITY, DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM.

AND BASED ON THE EXPERIENCE OF OUR PEOPLE, THIS REGIME CANNOT BE RE-FORMED.

SO I THINK WE HAVE REACHED A POSITION WHERE WE NEED A TRANSITION FROM THE AUTOCRATIC THEOCRACY OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, BUT FOR THIS TRANSITION, THERE ARE CONDITIONS.

IN MY OPINION NONVIOLENCE IS IMPERATIVE IN THIS TRANSITION.

IT IS ONE OF THE IMPORTANT COMPONENTS.

OUR GOAL IS TO ACHIEVE DEMOCRACY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS INTERVIEW.

> >> SO THAT'S TRUE BRAVERY AND DEMONSTRATES A COMMIT MANY TO A PEACEFUL RESISTANCE THROUGH A PEACEFUL TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

BUT THE REGIME CONTINUE TO INTENSIFY ITS CRACKDOWN ON PRO DEMOCRACY ACTIVISTS.

LEAVE LEARNED THE HUSBAND WAS ARRESTED LAST WEEK.

WHEN OFFICIAL CAME TO THE DOOR, THEY TOOK HIM BEFORE SHE AND HER SON HAD A CHANCE TO HUG HIM OR EVEN SAY GOODBYE.

MEANWHILE, THE NEW HIJAB AND CHASTITY LAW WAS DUE TO COME INTO EFFECT ON FRIDAY BUT IT'S BEEN PAUSED.

IT WOULD INTRODUCE HARSHER PUNISHMENT FOR WOMEN AND GIRL FOR EXPOSING THEIR ARMS, AND LOWER LEGS.

DEALING WITH IRAN IS JUST ONE ON A VERY LONG LIST OF FOREIGN POLICY CHALLENGES FOR THE INCOMING PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP.

NOT LEAST, UKRAINE, FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL, ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA, AND SYRIA GRAPPLING WITH A POST-ASSAD FUTURE, AND THEN OF COURSE, CHINA.

AND HIS PICK FOR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PETE HEGSETH, IS FACING A STRING OF CONTROVERSIES.

SO LET'S PUT SOME OF THIS TO TRUMP'S FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY MARK ESPER.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT SYRIA.

SO MANY FACTIONS AND GROUPS ARE OPERATING ON THE GROUND THERE.

ONE OF THEM HAS EMERGED DOMINANT AND IS THE RULING ONE.

HOW DO YOU SEE THIS PLAYING OUT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE, I ENJOY TALKING WITH YOU.

WE KNOW THAT HTS, THE LEAD GROUP ON THE GROUND, LED THIS INCREDIBLE RESURGENCE LESS THAN A WEEK AGO.

THAT'S A GREAT THING TO CELEBRATE FOR MANY YEARS, THE BRUTAL REIGN THAT THE ASSAD REGIME HAS PUT UPON THE SYRIAN PEOPLE.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL COME NEXT AND THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

HE'S BEEN SAYING THE RIGHT THINGS, DOING THE RIGHT THINGS, AND REACHING OUT TO OTHERS LIKE CHRISTIANS OR JEWS OR KURDS, HE'S BEEN SHOWING RESTRAINT WITH HIS TROOPS.

THAT'S THE BIG UNKNOWN.

I'M GLAD TO SEE THE E. U.

AND UNITED STATES ARE ENGAGING WITH HIM, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT PATH HE INTENDS TO TAKE THE COUNTRY AND HOW HE SBENSS TO LEAD.

WE KNOW HE'S BEEN PUT IN PLACE, THIS FORMER GOVERNOR.

SO FAR IT HAS BEEN PROGRESSING RELATIVE TO OTHER ARAB STATES WHO HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED.

IRAQ NOTABLY IN 2003 OR LIBYA.

IT HAS DESCENDED INTO CIVIL WAR.

WE MAY STILL SEE THAT BUT SO FAR, THERE IS HOPE.

>> SO THERE ARE SO MANY FACTIONS, INCLUDING COMPETING KURDISH FACTIONS.

ONE BACKED BY THE U. S. THE OTHER BY TURKEY.

AND ACTUALLY, PRESIDENT- ELECT TRUMP SAID THIS WEEK THAT HE THINKS TURKEY WILL HAVE A BIG AMOUNT OF LEVERAGE AND A BIG SAY FOR WHAT HAPPENS IN SYRIA.

MANY PEOPLE TURKEY IS THE BIG WINNER, THE BIG PLAYER.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING WITH REGARD TO THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND YOU HAVING TO EXECUTE AN ORDER TO PULL BACK AMERICAN FORCES THERE?

WHAT SHOULD THE U. S. DO, I MEAN, CAN IT DO COMPLETE HANDS-OFF?

REPUBLICAN SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM SAYS NO.

IT HAS TO MAKE SURE ISIS DOESN'T COME BACK.

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

I DON'T SEE ANY REASON TO HAVE AMERICAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

BUT WE HAVE INTERESTS THERE.

A NUMBER OF INTERESTS.

YOU MENTIONED TURKEY.

TURKEY IS CLEARLY THE WINNER NOW.

THEY SUPPORTED THESE REBEL FORCES.

THEY ARMED AND RESOURCED THEM.

SO NOW WE SEE, AS YOU MENTIONED, THEY'RE GOING AFTER THE PKK WHICH THEY SENIOR TO BE A , WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT AMERICAN INTERESTS, WE HAVE AN INTEREST IN RUSSIA LOSING ITS FOOTHOLD IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

WE SHOULD PROBABLY TALK ABOUT THAT.

THEY HAVE THE TWO STRATEGIC BASES, A NAVAL PORT, AND AN AIR BASE FURTHER UP NORTH.

AND THEN SECOND, AND MAYBE MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE SEE THAT IRAN CURRENTLY IS OUT OF SYRIA.

AND SYRIA, FOR DECADES, HAS BEEN THE MAJOR CONDUIT BETWEEN TEHRAN AND LEBANON TO RESUPPLY, SUPPORT, ARM HEZBOLLAH SINCE ITS FOUNDING IN THE '80s.

THE TWO MAJOR THINGS ARE KEEP IRAN OUT.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WHATEVER EMERGES IN SYRIA DOES NOT BECOME A TERRORIST STATE, MUCH LIKE AFGHANISTAN.

FOURTH, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE COUNTRY THAT EMERGES ISN'T A THREAT TO OUR ALLY ISRAEL.

AND THEN FIFTH, AGAIN, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE SUPPORT OUR KURDISH ALLIES ON THE GROUND.

SO THERE ARE A NUMBER OF U. S. INTERESTS HERE THAT WE NEED TO BE INVOLVED.

I'M GLAD TO SEE THE ADMINISTRATION, THE CURRENT ONE, ENGAGING.

I HOPE THE TRUMP TEAM WHEN IT COMES IN, WILL CONTINUE THAT ENGAGEMENT TO SHAPE THE FUTURE OF IT FOR THE BETTER.

>> YOU BROUGHT IT UP.

THE RUSSIANS FOR DECADES HAVE HAD THOSE BASES THERE.

AND IT IS WHERE THEY PROJECT THEIR POWER INTO THE MIDDLE EAST, INTO AFRICA.

AND THEY HAVE QUITE A LOT OF FOOTHOLD IN THAT REGARD.

HOW DOES THE U. S. GET RUSSIA OUT OF THERE?

I'M REALLY INTERESTED TO KNOW HOW YOU THINK THAT COULD HAPPEN.

IS THERE ANY KIND OF UKRAINE LINK YOU CAN THINK OF?

>> CLEARLY, WHAT HAS ENABLED RUSSIA'S DEPARTURE WHICH WAS PRECEDED BY RUSSIA'S INABILITY TO SUPPORT SYRIA HERE OVER THE FINAL FEW WEEKS WAS THE FACT THAT IT IS DISTRACTED IN UKRAINE.

IT EXPANDED A LOT OF MILITARY FORCES IN UKRAINE AND PROBABLY SOUGHT OR UNWILLING TO SUPPORT THEM AT THIS POINT.

WHAT WE SEE NOW IS THEM PULLING QUICKLY AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS OUT.

FLYING THEM OUT OF COUNTRY.

WE SEE THE NAVAL FORCES' ASSETS MOVING OFFSHORE.

WHEN IT COMES TO KEEPING THEM OUT, THIS SHOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT.

HTS, THE REBEL GROUP ON THE GROUND, KNOWS THAT FOR 50 PLUS YEARS, AS LONG AS RUSSIA HAS HAD BASES THERE, THEY'VE BEEN SUPPORTING THE ASSAD REGIME.

THEY'VE ENABLED THE KILLING OF SYRIANS FOR DECADES.

MOST NOTABLY, IN THE LAST TEN YEARS, SINCE ASSAD MOVED TO PUT DOWN THE LATEST RESURGENCE -- INSURGENCY.

RUSSIA WAS BOMBING SYRIANS.

THEY WERE USING OTHER TROOPS TO ENGAGE SYRIANS.

SO THE HISTORY THERE IS NOT GOOD.

I IMAGINE HTS WOULD KEEP THEM OUT.

WE KNOW MOSCOW IS TRYING TO KEEP THEM IN.

I THINK WE NEED TO GET IN ON THOSE NEGOTIATIONS AS WELL.

I SEE THE E. U.

IS SAYING A MILITARY NORMALIZATION IF YOU WILL.

LET ALONE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, REBUILDING ASSISTANCE, IF RUSSIA IS TO STAY IN COUNTRY.

SO THINGS LIKE THAT, ACCOMMODATION OF SOFT POWER WITH INCENTIVES ARE THE WAY TO ENGAGE HTS AND BRING THEM ALONG SO WE CAN SEE NOT JUST A BETTER FUTURE FOR THE SYRIAN PEOPLE WITH MORE NORMALIZED GOVERNANCE, BUT A SYRIA THAT NO LONGER HAS RUSSIA OCCUPYING MAJOR PORTS AND FACILITIES.

>> OBVIOUSLY, THE PRESIDENT WILL NEED A VERY CLUED IN, READY ON DAY ONE DEFENSE SECRETARY.

YOU KNOW HIS NOMINEE HAS BEEN GETTING A HUGE.

A PUSHBACK.

A LOT ABOUT HIS PERSONAL HABITS, DRUGS, ALCOHOL, THE REST OF IT, AS ALLEGED.

LOOT ABOUT HIS OWN WORDS ABOUT DIVERSITY, WOMEN IN COMBAT.

NOW HE SAYS HE SUPPORTS WOMEN THIS IS WHAT ANOTHER PREVIOUS DEFENSE SECRETARY, WILLIAM COHEN, TOLD ME ABOUT WOMEN IN THE PENTAGON.

HERE'S WHAT HE TOLD ME.

>> WE CAN'T FIGHT TODAY WITHOUT WOMEN IN COMBAT.

AND YOU HAVE TO DEFINE, WHAT IS COMBAT?

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HAND TO HAND COMBAT?

OR YOU'RE REALLY MAN TO MAN IN THE TRENCHES?

OR ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE KIND OF COMBAT THAT WE HAVE TODAY AND LIKELY TO HAVE TOMORROW?

WOMEN ARE FLYING OUR HIGH-PERFORMANCE AIRCRAFT.

THEY'RE DOING A GREAT JOB WITH THAT.

THEY'RE FLYING OUR HELICOPTERS.

THEY'RE SAILING OUR BIGGEST SHIPS.

THEY ARE FUNDAMENTAL TO OUR ABILITY TO DEFEND THIS COUNTRY.

I'M ASSUMING YOU AGREE WITH THAT.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO HEGSETH OR INDEED, PRESIDENT- ELECT TRUMP?

SHOULD HE LOOK FOR A DIFFERENT NOMINEE?

>> I SERVED WITH WOMEN DURING MY FOUR YEARS AT WEST POINT IN THE EARLY 1980s.

I SERVED WITH THEM ON ACTIVE DUTY AND IN THE GULF WAR.

AND LATER AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, I WOULD GO SEE THE TROOPS TRAIN, I WOULD SEE THEM DEPLOYED AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY'RE CRITICAL.

WOMEN ARE CRITICAL TO THE READINESS AND CAPACITY OF THE FORCE.

THEY'RE DOING ALL THESE MISSIONS.

MOST NOTABLY, THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE LAST THREE YEARS, WE ALLOWED THEM TO GO TO THE ARMY'S PREMIERE LEADERSHIP SCHOOLS.

THEY'VE SHOWN THEY CAN KEEP UP WITH THEIR MALE COUNTERPARTS.

THE KEY TO ALL THIS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE VERY CLEAR STANDARDS AND ENFORCE THEM.

THAT'S WHAT THE WOMEN WANT AS WELL.

THAT WAS MY ARGUMENT AS BOTH ARMY SECRETARY AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

WE MAINTAIN HIGH STANDARDS OF FITNESS, READINESS, PERFORMANCE, MAKE SURE EVERYBODY, MEN AND WOMEN ALIKE, ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THE UNITED STATES MILITARY, THE MOST CAPABLE AND PROFESSIONAL FORCE IN THE WORLD.

>> TO THAT POINT, FINALLY, ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT IN THIS CASE, THIS CABINET POSITION IS BEING FILLED BY A LOYALIST WHO COULD TURN THE MILITARY INTO A POLITICAL OPERATION RATHER THAN THE SEPARATION OF CIVILIAN AND MILITARY?

>> I AND OTHERS HAVE WARNED FOR YEARS THAT THE LESSON DONALD TRUMP LEARNED FROM HIS FIRST TERM AS HE THINKS ABOUT HIS SECOND MATERIAL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, HE NEEDS TRUE LOYALISTS IN ALL THESE POSITIONS.

I ASSUME THAT TO BE THE CASE IN ALL THESE APPOINTEES.

HE HAS A WIDE MIX OF APPOINTEES OUT THERE.

MY CONCERN, WHAT GUIDED ME, YOUR OATH IS FIRST AND FOREMOST TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

NOT THE PRESIDENT, NOT A PHILOSOPHY.

BUT TO THE CONSTITUTION AND SERVING THE COUNTRY.

I THINK WHEN THEY GO FOR ADVICE IN THE COMING WEEKS, THAT WILL BE THE FOCUS OF THE SENATORS ON THE NOMINATING COMMITTEES.

>> IT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

>> THANK YOU.

SO INDEED.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO ANOTHER POLARIZING ISSUE.

THAT'S THE PUBLIC REACTION TO THE MURDER OF UNITEDHEALTHCARE CEO BRIAN THOMPSON.

HE WAS SHOT DEAD IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN THIS MONTH AFTER A SIX-DAY MANHUNT.

THE SUSPECT, 26-YEAR-OLD LUIGI MANGIONE, HASH IN CUSTODY CHARGED WITH MURDER AS AN ACT OF TERRORISM.

SINCE THE KILLING, THE INTERNET HAS BEEN SWIRLING WITH DIVISIVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HIS POTENTIAL MOTIVE AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT AMERICA'S HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

JIA TOLENTINO WRITES ABOUT THIS FOR HER LATEST PIECE IN "THE NEW YORKER. "

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU THINK THE WAY PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS PUBLICLY, BECAUSE OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, RESPECTABLE PEOPLE HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS INEXCUSABLE, NOT HOW WE HANDLE SITUATIONS.

YOU SEE A NUMBER OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS CERTAINLY SAYING THAT VIGILANTE VIOLENCE IS NOT TO BE TOLERATED.

YOU'RE SAYING PRIVATELY, CERTAINLY SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS ARE IN SOME WAYS OTHER PUBLIC EXPRESSION OF OUR PRIVATE THOUGHTS.

DO YOU WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK IT IS INTERESTING WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS AND PEOPLE SPEAK ABOUT IT VERY DIFFERENTLY IN PRIVATE THAN THEY DO IN PUBLIC.

AT FIRST I WAS THINKING, MAYBE THIS IS PARTICULAR TO PEOPLE MY AGE WHO HAVE NO SENSE OF PROPRIETY.

THEY ARE LETTING THE MEMES RIP IN THE GROUP CHATS.

ONE THING WE'VE REALIZED IN THE CHAOTIC RESPONSE TO THIS MURDER, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ANY PARTICULAR AGE OR GENDER OR RACE OR FROM ANY REGION OR EVEN HAVE ANY SORT OF POLITICAL IDEOLOGY WHATSOEVER TO FEEL THAT THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS PROFOUNDLY IMMORAL.

TO FEEL THAT EVERYONE, SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUSHED TO SUCH A BREAKING POINT.

AND MOSTLY BEEN ABLE TO DO VERY LITTLE ABOUT IT OTHER THAN TO TRY TO RAISE MONEY HOWEVER THEY CAN TO GET OUT OF BANKRUPTCY OR START A GOFUNDME OR SIMPLY SUFFER.

I THINK WE FOUND IN THE RESPONSE, THE SENSE OF GLEE, FRANKLY, THE GLEE THAT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE MAYBE FOR SOME PEOPLE TO BEHOLD IN PUBLIC IT WAS INDICATIVE OF SOMETHING THAT HAS REALLY CUT ACROSS ALL SORTS OF TRADITIONAL, DIVISIONAL LINES IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN THE PIECE, THAT YOU WROTE FOR THE NEW YORKER.

YOU WROTE THAT THOMPSON'S MURDER IS ONE SYMPTOM OF THE AMERICAN APPETITE FOR VIOLENCE.

HIS LINE OF WORK IS ANOTHER.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> ONE THING I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT IN THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE, TOO, THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, THERE IS NO REASON FOR IT TO EXIST IN THE WAY THAT IT DOES.

AND WE TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THIS IS JUST HOW WE LIVE.

WE ARE LOCKED INTO THIS SYSTEM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ATTEMPTS TO PUSH FOR A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM, THEY HAVE NOT SUCCEEDED.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THING LIKE GUN CONTROL THAT PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE POWERLESSLY LOCKED INTO.

THERE IS NO WAY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT WHEN YOU VOTE, FUNDAMENTAL FUNDAMENTALLY BUT THIS HAS PROVIDED A MOMENT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO STEP BACK THINK AND, WHY DO WE HAVE A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT WORKS LIKE THIS?

WHY ARE WE THE ONLY DEVELOPED NATION IN THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T GUARANTEE HEALTH CARE TO ALL CITIZENS?

WHY DO WE HAVE PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANY LIKE UNITEDHEALTHCARE PLAYING SUCH A PRIMARY ROLE IN THE SYSTEM?

WE PAY MORE PER CAPITA IN HEALTH INSURANCE, IN HEALTH CARE COSTS THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT IS COMPARABLE.

WE HAVE THE LOWEST LIFE EXPECTANCY AT BIRTH OUT OF ANY OTHER COMPARABLE COUNTRY.

OUR SYSTEM IS SO EXPENSIVE.

IT IS SO PROFITABLE FOR A VERY SELECT FEW COMPANIES AND PEOPLE AND IT IS SO, SO PUNITIVE IN TERMS OF WHAT IT DOES TO PEOPLE'S ACTUAL HEALTH AND ABILITY TO LIVE.

AND THERE IS NO REASON IT HAS TO BE LIKE THIS.

THE ANNUAL REVENUE IS HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS A YEAR.

ITS ANNUAL PROFITS, BRIAN THOMPSON DURING HIS TENURE RAISED THE PROFRTS FROM $12 BILLION TO $16 BILLION.

WE HAVE THIS FIT-MAKING MACHINE AND WHAT IT COMES OFF THE BACK OF.

THERE ARE LOTS OF KINDS OF VIOLENCE.

SOMEONE SHOOTING SOMEONE IN THE STREET IS ONE.

I THINK OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS QUITE CLEARLY ANOTHER.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS EMERGED FULL-FORCE IN THE WAY PEOPLE ARE REACTING.

>> YOU'RE MAKING AN ARGUMENT THAT STRGS CAN CREATE VIOLENCE.

THAT VIOLENCE ISN'T JUST A PERSON DOING SOMETHING BAD TO ANOTHER PERSON.

THAT SYSTEMS THEMSELVES CAN CREATE VIOLENCE.

OR CERTAINLY HARM.

ONE THING YOU WRITE.

TO MOST AMERICANS, A COMPANY LIKE UNITEDHEALTHCARE.

>> THIS GOES BACK TO THE CONCEPTION OF SOCIAL MURDER WHICH HE WROTE ABOUT IN THE MID 19th CENTURY, RIGHT?

WHEN A SOCIETY WITHHOLDS THE CONDITIONS NECESSARY TO LIVE FROM ITS PEOPLE, LIKE WE DO IN THIS COUNTRY IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY THE MINIMUM WAGE, HOUSING, AND VERY PARTICULARLY, HEALTH CARE, THE MOST DIRECT WAY.

WHEN A SOCIETY DENIES THE CONDITIONS THAT ARE NECESSARY TO LIVE TO ITS PEOPLE, AND THEY DIE BECAUSE OF IT, THAT THAT ITSELF, HE CALLED IT SOCIAL MURDER.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, A NORWEGIAN SOCIAL SCIENTIST TERMED IT STRUCTURAL MURDER IN 1969.

THERE ARE WAYS TO END SOMEONE'S LIFE BEFORE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED.

ONE OF THEM, THE KIND OF VIOLENCE WE FIXATE ON IN THIS COUNTRY IS A SINGLE PERSON WITH A WEAPON THAT INTENDS HARM UPON ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN CAUSES IT.

BUT THERE IS A LOT OF OTHER WAYS TO END A LIFE EARLY AND UNJUSTLY AND IMMORALLY.

AND DENYING PEOPLE HEALTH CARE IS ONE OF THEM.

ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS SO CLEARLY, YOU LOOK AT CEO COMPENSATION IN THIS COUNTRY, HEALTH CARE COMPANIES ASIDE.

YOU LOOK AT THE REVENUES OF A COMPANY LIKE UNITEDHEALTHCARE AND THE FACT THAT IT DENIES ONE-THIRD OF ALL THE CARE THAT DOCTORS ASK FOR FOR THEIR PATIENTS.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE DENIED CLAIMS IS A POTENTIAL BANKRUPTCY, A POTENTIAL SICKNESS, POTENTIAL DEATH.

AND I THINK WE FIXATE SO MUCH ON THIS ONE KIND OF VIOLENCE AT THE EXPENSE OF RECOGNIZING THE CONDITIONS OF LIFE IN THIS COUNTRY FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE ARE THAT OF THE DENIAL OF THE TOOLS ARE NECESSARY TO SIMPLY LIVE.

>> WHAT I FOUND FASCINATING, THE VERY DAY THAT THE ALLEGED SHOOTER, LUIGI MANGIONE WAS ARRESTED, WAS THE VERY DAY ANOTHER YOUNG MAN ACQUITTED OF THE CHOKEHOLD DEATH OF A MAN ON THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY.

NOW, YES.

HE DIDN'T FLEE.

HE PRESENTED HIMSELF TO AUTHORITIES.

HE SAID I DID THIS.

I HAD AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS.

I THOUGHT THIS MAN WAS THREATENING AND I FELT THAT I WAS DOING MY PART.

I FOUND IT SO FASCINATING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF HIS TRIAL CALLING HIM A HERO.

CALLING HIM A HERO.

AND SUBSEQUENTLY, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT INVITED HIM TO SIT IN HIS BOX AT THE ARMY-NAVY GAME THIS WEEKEND.

BASICALLY, LIONIZING HIM.

I FOUND IT SO FASCINATING THAT THERE HAVE BEEN --PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED TO GO SHOOT PEOPLE IN COLD BLOOD ON THE STREET BECAUSE THEY'RE MAD AT THEM.

BUT DID I FIND IT SO FASCINATING THAT THERE WAS SUCH A DIFFERENT REACTION TO THESE TWO DEATHS.

I'M CURIOUS IF YOU THOUGHT THAT, TOO.

>> BOTH MEN WERE 26 YEARS OLD.

MAYBE THE REACTION ISN'T SO DIFFERENT, RIGHT?

WE CAN'T DANCE AROUND, LUIGI MANGIONE IS AN ENORMOUS FOLK HERO TO PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES EVERYWHERE ON THE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM.

DANIEL PENNY, HE IS A FOLK HERO VERY FIRMLY AND ONLY ON THE RIGHT.

BOTH PEOPLE ARE BEING CELEBRATED FOR TAKING SOMEONE OUT THAT WAS SEEN TO BE A DANGER TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

WHEN YOU COMPARE THEIR VICTIMS, THAT'S WHEN THINGS GET MUCH CLEARER, RIGHT?

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE NOT CONGRESSMEN, MOURNING DANIEL PENNY'S VICTIM, MOURNING HIM AS SOMEONE WHOSE LIFE WAS PRECIOUS, WHOSE END OF LIFE WAS UNJUST.

REFLEXIVELY, THE RESPONSE OF PEOPLE IN POWER TO BRIAN THOMPSON'S MURDER WERE MEN LIKE THIS, MEN THAT MAKE $10 MILLION A YEAR, MEN THAT SHEPHERD THEIR FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES TO SHAREHOLDER PROFITS, QUARTER OVER QUARTER, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO, IN AMERICA, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO CONFIRM MORALITY.

THE SIMPLE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS THAT WEALTHY.

THAT THEY PRESIDE OVER MANY EMPLOYEES, THAT THEY CAN GENERATE CAPITAL GAINS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

THAT IN ITSELF IS ALMOST ONE TO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AT LEAST AMONG THE POWERFUL WITH MORALITY, ALTHOUGH AS WE ALL KNOW, THE WAY THAT YOU ACQUIRE MONEY LIKE THAT IS OFTEN THROUGH PROFOUNDLY ING SYSTEMS AND NONE OF WHICH ARE AS STARK AS THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ITSELF.

IN THIS WAY, BRIAN THOMPSON, HE IS SEEN AS AUTOMATICALLY DESERVING RESPECT.

WHERE JORDAN NEELY, THE VICTIM OF DANIEL PENNY, HE WAS THE VICTIM OF THAT SAME EXACT SYSTEM.

HE WAS SEEN AS A DANGER BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE MONEY.

THE SYSTEM THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE $10 MILLION A YEAR BENEFITTING FROM, THOSE SYSTEMS OPERATE BY NEGLECTING AND IGNORING AND CASTING ASIDE PEOPLE LIKE HIM.

>> I THINK YOU MAY HAVE SEEN THIS.

ANDREW WITTY, THE UNITEDHEALTHCARE CEO WHO WROTE AN OP- ED LAST WEEK EMPHASIZED THE COMPANY'S MISSION TO MAKE HEALTH CARE MORE COMPASSIONATE AND TRANSPARENT.

I'LL QUOTE.

WE KNOW THE HEALTH SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK AS WELL AS IT SHOULD AND WE UNDERSTAND.

IT IS A PATCH WORK BUILT OVER DECADES.

OUR MISSION IS TO HELP MAKE IT WORK BETTER.

HOW DO YOU OR DO YOU RECOGNIZE THESE STATEMENTS WITH THE REALITIES THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT IN YOUR PEACE?

AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR NUMBERS ARE.

I FOUND IT SHOCKING AND AMAZING THAT THEY WOULD PUBLISH A NEWSLETTER FOR UNITEDHEALTHCARE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY HONESTLY FUNNY THAT THE CEO OF UNITEDHEALTHCARE THAT AFTER ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE COME OUT ABOUT UNITEDHEALTHCARE IN RECENT DAYS, ALL OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS FROM THE LAST FEW YEARS, ALL OF THESE GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS, ALL OF THESE CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS ABOUT HOW THE COMPANY EMPLOYS ALGORITHMS TO KICK ELDERLY PATIENTS OUT OF REHAB BEDS 14 DAYS AFTER THEY HAVE SURGERY, RIGHT?

HOW THEIR INTERNAL PROGRAMS THAT HAVE BEEN DEEMED ILLEGAL IN MULTIPLE STATES, ABOUT HOW THEY HAVE TO KICK PEOPLE OFF REIMBURSEMENT ONCE THEY'RE GETTING TOO MUCH THERAPY.

YOU CAN'T GET AROUND THIS IS HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS.

HOW THEY GENERATE THEIR PROFITS IS NOT DESPITE THE FACT BUT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEY DENY SO MANY PEOPLE CARE.

OBVIOUSLY, IT IS COMPLICATED.

IT IS NOT EXACTLY THAT BLACK AND WHITE.

BUT THAT IS HOW THIS COMPANY MAKES MONEY.

SO I APPLAUD THE PR TEAM AT UNITEDHEALTHCARE FOR SPENDING FIVE DAYS WORKING EVERY LITTLE SENTENCE IN THERE TO TRY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE WORKING THEIR HARDEST TO TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE.

I THINK THEY HAVE TO SHUT DOWN COMMENTS ON THAT ONE.

IT WAS NOT A SUCCESSFUL WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS CAMPAIGN.

>> DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO CLAIM THAT, CAN THEY REALLY NOT KNOW?

>> THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A DEGREE OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE THAT COMES FROM LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT COMES FROM THE PROFOUNDLY IMMORAL SYSTEMS ON WHICH ALL OF OUR LIVES REST, AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO SIMPLY LIVE STILL, RIGHT?

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE RESOLVE THAT COGNITIVE DISSONANCE BY SAYING, WELL, THE WAY PITS IS THE WAY THAT IT IS, AND WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING.

OTHERWISE, WHO KNOWS WHAT KIND OF CHAOS, DISORDER AND HELL WE WILL SLIDE INTO?

NOT REALIZING THAT MANY PEOPLE ALREADY LIVE IN THAT HELL.

I THINK TO UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE ARE COMING FROM, YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THE BASELINE IMMORALITY OF A SYSTEM UPON WHICH KIND OF ALL OF OUR LIVES DEPEND.

AND WE'VE SEEN THE TEACHING OF AMERICAN HISTORY, TAXING THE RICH, I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE ERECTED AN IMMOVABLE WALL, THAT BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT THIS COUNTRY THAT ARE SINGULAR AND AMAZING, THAT THEY ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT THAT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE ROTTEN TO THE CORE AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.

AND I THINK THAT PERHAPS MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BAFFLED AT THE REACTION, THAT IS A RESULT OF THOSE WALLS.

I ALSO THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THE REACTION HAS SHOWN IS THAT THERE IS A HUNGER FOR DIRECT ACTION IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY, THERE ARE CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS TO PROTEST.

IF PEOPLE WANT TO MAKE CEOs OF PROFOUNDLY IMMORAL COMPANIES, IF WE WANT TO MAKE THEIR LIVES MISERABLE, WE CAN DO IT WITHOUT SHOOTING THEM.

WE CAN PROTEST, OCCUPY, ACT UP, SHUT DOWN, THERE'S A HUNGER FOR THAT.

A LOT OF FORM ARE NOT VIOLENT AND MURDEROUS.

AND IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M HOPING, I WANT THAT TO PUSH THROUGH VERY BADLY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS, I'M SORT OF PUZZLING OVER HERE, YOU KNOW, FORMER PRESIDENT AND NOW FUTURE PRESIDENT TRUMP ASSEMBLED THE RICHEST CABINET IN HISTORY AND IS POISED TO DO SO AGAIN.

HE HAD A WIDER MARGIN OF VICTORY THAN THE LAST TIME HE RAN.

NO ONE IS ING THAT HE WON THIS ELECTION.

THEY CAN LIKE IT OR NOT LIKE IT BUT NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT HE WON IT WHICH MEANS MORE PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM.

SO HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT WITH THE OUTRAGE AT THE SYSTEMS WHICH HE SHOWS NO INCLINATION TO DISRUPT?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF PERHAPS UNDERINFORMED VOTERS THAT STILL GET THIS SORT OF BASELESS WHIFF OF POPULISM OFF TRUMP DESPITE EVERYTHING HE'S EVER SHOWN IN HIS LIFE.

HE STILL POSITIONS HIMSELF AS A POPULIST LEADER.

SOMEONE FIGHTING FOR IT.

IF YOU SCRATCH THAT ONE SECOND, IT ALL FALLS APART.

HE HAS PRETTY SUCCESSFULLY PUSH THAT HAD MESSAGE.

THE SHARP RIGHT RETURN THAT EVERY SINGLE CITY AND STATE IN THE COUNTRY BASICALLY TOOK IS, I DON'T KNOW.

IT IS TERRIFYING TO ME FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

BUT I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING PROMISING IN THE FACT THIS REACTION HAS BEEN BYNUM.

YOU DON'T, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT AND ON THE LEFT AND IN THE CENTER AND IN THE WEIRD DIAGONAL HORSESHOE, RIGHT, LEFT, ALL OF THESE CONTEMPORARY CONFIGURATIONS OR POLITICS THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, THERE IS, THERE IS A POPULIST AGENDA HERE THAT NEITHER PARTY IS ACTUALLY PUSHING THAT IS PROFOUNDLY POPULAR.

THAT CEO PAY IS OUT OF CONTROL.

THAT COMPANIES ARE ACTING IMMORALLY.

THE ENRICHMENT OF MULTIMILLIONAIRES AND BILLIONAIRES AT THE DIRECT EXPENSE OF ORDINARY PEOPLE IS UNJUST.

AND I FIND SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT PROMISING IN THE FACT THAT WHEN I WAS WRITING THE PIECE, JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT I WASN'T GETTING LOST IN MY SORT OF BROOKLYN SOCIALIST BUBBLE, I WAS CHECKING LOTS OF PLACES.

I WAS CHECKING COMMENT SECTIONS ON LOCAL FOX AFFILIATES, THE NEW YORK POST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES," RANDOM TIKTOKS, ALL OF THESE THINGS.

AND NO ONE IS REALLY SAYING, YEAH, THESE COMPANY ARE CORRUPT.

IT'S ALL TRUMP'S FAULT OR ALL BIDEN'S FAULT.

PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING THAT THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT NEITHER PARTY IS REALLY TRYING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT.

AND THERE IS A REAL POLITICAL OPPORTUNITY THERE AND A REAL POTENTIAL LOCUS OF POLITICAL PROMISE IF ONLY SOMEONE WOULD TAKE IT OUT IN ACTUALITY, WHICH OBVIOUSLY TRUMP ISN'T GOING TO DO.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> THE SOUTHERN BORDER IS ANOTHER IMPORTANT ISSUE FACING AMERICA.

IMMIGRATION LAWYERS AND ACTIVISTS WARN THAT THE RETURN OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COULD ALSO MEAN THE RETURN OF ITS CONTROVERSIAL CHILD SEPARATION POLICY.

IT IS A TOPIC I'LL BE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S THE FOCUS OF THEIR NEW DOCUMENTARY, SEPARATED.

SO TUNE IN FOR THAT.

> >> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, SANTA IS COMING TO TOWN ON A JET SKI.

IN BRAZIL, FATHER CHRISTMAS HAS SWAPPED HIS SNOWBOUND SLEIGH FOR A SUNNY SEA FORM OF TRANSPORT.

TO LOCAL FIRE BRIGADE AND NGO HEROES OF LOVE TEAMED UP TO SPREAD SOME JOY AND LOVE ON RIO'S FAMOUS BEACH.

THE CHARITY SUPPORTS PATIENTS SUFFERING FROM CEREBRAL PALSY AND OTHER CONDITIONS.

DOZENS OF CHILDREN SHOWED UP TO RECEIVE THEIR GIFTS.

IT IS A HEARTWARMING IF UNUSUAL WAY TO KICK OFF THE FESTIVE CELEBRATION.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE BE FROM LONDON.

>