Sen. Ron Wyden on “Progressive Change” in the New Trump Era

>> AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SIGNED A NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS INCLUDING RESCINDING 78 BIDEN ERA EXECUTIVE ACTIONS AND DELAYING THE TIKTOK BAN THAT WAS SIGNED INTO LAW LAST WEEK.

WHILE THIS IS A BLOW TO THE BIDEN PRESIDENTIAL LEGACY AND THE DEMOCRATS, LIKE THE TITLE OF HIS NEW BOOK SUGGESTS, OREGON SENATOR RON WYDEN BELIEVES IT TAKES CHUTZPAH TO FIGHT FOR CHANGE.

WALTER ISAACSON SPOKE WITH HIM.

SENATOR, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE A BOOK OUT ABOUT HOW TO FIGHT FOR PROGRESSIVE CHANGE.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CHUTZPAH?

>> HOTSPOT IS APPARENTLY GOOD.

--INHERENTLY GOOD.

WHEN THEY TOLD THE BRITISH TO GO FLY A KITE, THAT IS CHUTZPAH AND MISAPPROPRIATING CHUTZPAH IS SOMETHING THAT WE WANT TO REDUCE AND GOOD CHUTZPAH WE WANT TO SPREAD AND I HAVE 12 RULES OF CHUTZPAH IN THIS BOOK SO THAT YOU CAN TAKE YOUR INNER A DIFFERENCE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN THAT THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT HAS NOT BEEN PROGRESSIVE ENOUGH?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE PAST YEAR ON ECONOMICS IT HAS NOT BEEN A BLUNT STRAIGHTFORWARD MESSAGE.

I CAN TELL YOU THE SECOND WORD OF WHAT PEOPLE BRING UP IS BILL.

IT MIGHT BE GROCERY BILL OR MEDICAL BILL.

IT MIGHT BE ELECTRIC BILL AND THAT HAS SORT OF GOTTEN LOST IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO.

THE LATE GERALD FORD KNEW THAT YOU COULD NOT WHIP INFLATION AFTER A WHILE BECAUSE THAT WAS HIS OLD BUTTON.

BUT WE NEEDED TO HAVE A BETTER MESSAGE THAN WE DID.

>> ONE OF YOUR CHAPTERS IS TAKING HITS AND BOUNCING BACK.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TOOK A LOT OF HITS IN THE LAST ELECTION.

WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO BOUNCE BACK?

>> I MENTIONED THE ISSUES.

THE SOCIAL ISSUES GIVE YOU A PERSPECTIVE.

I WAS THE FIRST UNITED STATES SENATOR TO SUPPORT MARRIAGE EQUALITY AND I DID IT 15 YEARS BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE.

IT WAS IN THE CAMPAIGN TO SUCCEED BOB PACKWOOD AND NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT IT MUCH AND I SAID, IF YOU DON'T LIKE GAY MARRIAGE AND DON'T GET ONE.

SO NOW I CAN WALK INTO A GROUP AND SAY, HERE IS A DEMOCRAT THAT IS LIVE AND LET LIVE AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT IN THEIR LIVING ROOMS.

>> IS THAT LIKE TRANS RIGHTS?

OR LIKE THE DEMOCRATS GOT BEATEN BACK ON THAT ISSUE?

>> THOSE ISSUES ARE MUCH THE SAME.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE PROVIDE FREEDOM AND LIBERTY TO ALL AND THEY ARE NOT THE FIRST ISSUES THAT WILL COME UP.

>> ON THE ECONOMY YOU SAID THAT PEOPLE WORRY ABOUT PAYING THEIR BILLS.

WHAT IS IT THAT SHOULD BE DONE TO FIGHT FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS AS THE DEMOCRATS SEEM TO HAVE LOST THE LOYALTY OF THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS THIS PAST ELECTION.

>> LET'S TAKE FOOD PRICES.

I WAS ONE OF THE SENATORS THAT LED THE FIGHT AGAINST THE ALBERTSON KROGER MERGER.

IF THAT HAD GONE THROUGH IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST MERGER IN THE FOOD AND GROCERY BUSINESS IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES AND I BELIEVE ALL OF THAT CONSOLIDATION DRIVES A PRICES AND I BELIEVE IT IS TIME TO DUST OFF THE ANTITRUST LAW WE HAVE AMY KLOBUCHAR THAT HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THESE ISSUES.

THINGS THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND AND CORPORATE POWER, DRIVING A PRICES IS RIGHT AT THE TOP.

>> DO YOU THINK FOOD PRICES HAVE GONE OUT BECAUSE OF -- GONE UP BECAUSE OF PRICE GOUGING?

>> IT CAME UP IN THE CAMPAIGN, THERE WAS A QUESTION OF PRICE GOUGING.

PEOPLE CAME TO ME BECAUSE I WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE AND I SAID LOOK, WE BELIEVE DEEPLY IN LIBERTY.

WE ARE MARKET'S PEOPLE AND WE FOCUS ON MARKETS AND LIBERTY.

WHEN THE MARKETS ARE HAVING PROBLEMS YOU NEED GUARDRAILS AND MORE THAN THREE STATES HAVE GUARDRAILS TODAY SO THERE ARE CONCRETE ALTERNATIVES ON FOOD, CONCENTRATION, MARKETS.

THAT IS WHAT WE WILL BE PURSUING.

>> ONE OF THE BIG PIECES OF THIS OTHER THAN THE INAUGURATION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE TIKTOK SITUATION.

AND A LAW THAT MADE CHINESE DIVESTED OR THAT BANNED TIKTOK, THEY SAID THAT LAW COULD STAND BUT YOU WANT TO EXTEND THAT.

EXPLAINED TO ME THAT POSITION.

>> I AM A BIG FREEDOM OF SPEECH GUY.

THEY SAY I AM THE FIRST AMENDMENT TALK AND I SAY THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH.

MY DAD WAS A WRITER AND AUTHOR.

PEOPLE USE TOO DARK FOR THEIR PERSONAL LIFE AND BUSINESS AND I THINK WE NEED TO FIND AN AMERICAN BUYER AND THAT IS WHAT OUR LEGISLATION SEEKS TO DO.

>> YOU CANNOT HAVE AN AMERICAN BUYER IF IT IS SHUT DOWN BECAUSE TIKTOK SAYS IT IS HARD TO SEPARATE THE AMERICAN PART FROM THE REST OF THE COUNTRY -- COMPANY.

>> LET ME RAISE THIS CONCERN AS WE LOOK FOR AN AMERICAN BY YOUR.

THE CHINESE TO SELL TO ELON MUSK I WOULD SAY THAT SOUNDS CORRUPT TO ME BECAUSE ELON MUSK HAS BEEN HIS CAMPAIGN BENEFACTORS SO I AM GOING TO FOCUS WITH MY COLLEAGUES TRYING TO FIND AN AMERICAN BUYER.

I AM FOR SPEECH AND FOR THIS COUNTRY HAVING CHOICES IN THE COMMUNICATIONS SPHERE.

>> DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE PERMISSIBLE TO ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE WITH CHINESE OWNERS?

>> I WANT AN AMERICAN OWNER.

RED WHITE AND BLUE OWNER.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> YOU HAVE SEEN IT WITH THE CHIPS ISSUE.

WE WANT TO BUILD BACK INSTITUTIONS AND I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THE DAYS WHERE WE HAVE GIANTS CONTROLLED FROM ELSEWHERE.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BUILDING BACK IN THE UNITED STATES, WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT SOME FORM OF TARIFFS TO STIMULATE STATES.

>> LET'S STEP BACK FOR A SECOND.

CHINESE SURVEILLANCE IS ALSO VERY MUCH ON MY MIND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES BECAUSE, I HAVE BEEN LEADING THE FIGHT TO RESPOND WHICH IS, ACCORDING TO MY COLLEAGUES, VERY CONSERVATIVE SENATORS AND THE BIGGEST HACK IN AMERICAN HISTORY WITH THE CHINESE CLIMBING AROUND OUR PHONES.

THIS IS AN ISSUE WHERE WE HAVE GOT TO FOCUS ON PROTECTING AMERICAN RIGHT AND THAT WOULD SOLVE A BIG PROBLEM.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT WANTING TO BRING THINGS BACK TO AMERICA.

TO WHAT EXTENT SHOULD TARIFFS BE A PART OF THAT MIX?

>> I HAVE BEEN FOR USING TARIFFS IN A CAREFULLY TARGETED KIND OF WAY.

IT IS LIKE YOU HAVE A TOOL BAG.

A TOOL BAG OF RESOURCES.

TARIFFS OUGHT TO BE ONE OF THE TOOLS IN THE TOOLKIT BUT, WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS USING IS THIS UNIVERSAL TARIFF APPROACH, WHICH I BELIEVE WILL BE BAD NEWS FOR AMERICAN CONSUMERS AND BUSINESSES.

I THINK IT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO RAISING INFLATION.

IN OREGON WE LIKE TO GROW THINGS AND MAKE THINGS AND SHIP THEM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND THESE TARIFFS, THE WAY TRUMP ENVISIONS THEM, WILL BE ACROSS THE BOARD.

I ASKED THE TREASURY SECRETARY ABOUT TARIFFS AND HE GAVE THIS VERY ACADEMIC KIND OF ISSUE ABOUT HOW EVERYTHING WILL BE HUNKY-DORY AND I SAID, DONALD TRUMP LIED ABOUT TARIFFS THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN.

HE SAID FOREIGNERS ARE GOING TO PAY THE TARIFFS.

AND I SAID THAT IS JUST A BUNCH OF BALONEY.

A BUNCH OF -- WILL PAY THOSE.

HE BASICALLY JUST OFFERED MORE ACADEMIC THEORY IF YOU HAVE AN ACROSS THE BOARD TARIFF APPROACH.

TARGETED TARIFFS CAN BE USEFUL.

>> IN YOUR EXCHANGE WITH THE POTENTIAL SECRETARY, HE TALKED ABOUT A 10% TARIFF.

BUT THERE IS SOME EXPLANATIONS OF WHAT THAT WOULD DO AND HOW THAT WOULD RIPPLE FOURTH.

DO YOU THINK IT IS A MORE SUBTLE QUESTION THAN THAT?

>> I THINK THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE IS THAT ACROSS THE BOARD TARIFFS ARE GOING TO HIT CONSUMERS HARD.

TRUMP'S TARIFFS ARE GOING TO HIT VERY HARD.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT MR. BESSENT AND I THOUGHT, MANY OF THE ECONOMISTS THAT WE FOLLOW PRETTY MUCH SAID THE SAME THING.

THEY SAY THAT BESSENT TRIED BUT DID NOT MAKE THEM THINK THAT HIS KIND OF TARIFFS WOULD BE OKAY AND WOULD NOT HURT CONSUMERS.

I WILL TELL YOU WALTER, ONE OF THE REASONS TRUMP KEEPS TRYING TO GUSSY UP HIS APPROACH ON TARIFFS IS BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T THINK IT ADDS UP.

INSTEAD OF AN INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE HE SAID LET'S HAVE AN EXTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

THIS IS ABOUT THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT AND IT IS AN EFFORT TO GLOSS OVER WHAT IS GOING ON.

IF YOU GO BEYOND TARGETED TARIFFS, AS I HAVE SAID, AMERICAN CONSUMERS AND AMERICAN SMALL BUSINESSES ARE GOING TO GET HURT.

>> ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO YOU WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN CREATING WHAT WHICH BASICALLY SAYS THAT SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS LIKE X, FACEBOOK, OR EVEN TIKTOK CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE LEGALLY FOR WHAT USERS POST.

THAT HAS CHANGED THE WAY SOCIAL MEDIA HAS AFFECTED DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU HAVE CHANGES THAT YOU WOULD MAKE IN RETROSPECT?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS A LAW OUT THERE THAT YOU CAN'T MAKE BETTER.

I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU DON'T COME UP WITH APPROACHES THAT ARE WORSE THAN WHAT THE CHALLENGES ARE.

AT ONE POINT THE NEW YORK TIMES WROTE A LONG PIECE WITH CHRIS COX AND I ABOUT HOW WE WROTE SECTION 230 AND UNDERNEATH IT IT SAID RON WYDEN AND CHRIS COX WROTE THE LAW THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR INCREASED FREE SPEECH IN AMERICA SO WE CALLED THEM UP AND SAID WE DON'T COMPLAIN VERY OFTEN BUT MOST OF THE STUFF, WALTER, WE HATE ONLINE.

THE FILTH AND THE MISOGYNY.

IT IS NOT DRIVEN BY SECTION 230 BUT BY THE FIRST OF AMENDMENT.

90% OF WHAT WE DON'T LIKE ONLINE IS THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE WANTS TO UNRAVEL THAT.

WE HAVE THE MODERATION PROVISION THAT WE WROTE AND I CONTINUE TO BE OPEN TO IDEAS BUT I WILL TELL YOU, TODAY, JUST LIKE WHEN WE WROTE THE ORIGINAL LAW, THE PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT ARE THE USERS, THE SMALL GROUPS, THE KNITTING GROUPS AND THE LIKE.

I DON'T THINK BLACK LIVES MATTER AND THE #METOO MOVEMENT COULD HAVE GOTTEN OFF THE GROUND IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN WEBSITES LIKE THIS THAT WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN IT.

YES TO BEING OPEN TO IMPROVEMENTS BUT LET'S NOT MAKE IT WORSE THAN THE CHALLENGES.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN IN HIS FAREWELL ADDRESS TALKED ABOUT THE OLIGARCHY AND THE TECH INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

YOU HAVE BEEN VERY INVOLVED IN THOSE ISSUES.

WHAT WAS HE TALKING ABOUT AND IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WORRIES YOU?

>> VERY MUCH SO.

I WANT AN ECONOMY THAT GIVES EVERYBODY IN AMERICA A CHANCE TO GET AHEAD AND I THINK TRUMP AND SOME OF THE OLIGARCHS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THAT.

THEY WANTED TO GIVE BREAKS TO THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP AND THE IDEA IS THAT PEOPLE THAT ARE ON MEDICAID AND HUNGER PROGRAMS GOT CUT AND IT WOULD JUST SORT OF TRICKLE-DOWN.

SO, WHAT I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON IS A TAX CODE THAT SAYS WHEN TEACHERS AND FIREFIGHTERS AND NURSES PAY TAXES WITH EVERY PAYCHECK, THE BILLIONAIRES SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BORROW AND NOT PAID TAXES FOR YEARS ON END.

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT BILLIONAIRES LIKE ELON MUSK HAVING A SPECIAL CARVEOUT OF RULES JUST FOR THEM.

I TALKED WITH BESSENT IT IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE WORKING PERSON PAYS TAXES WITH EVERY PAYCHECK AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALL OF THEIR DATA IS SO, IF THEY THINK SOMETHING IS GOING OFF THE RAILS OR IS WRONG, THEY CAN USE THAT DATA BUT WITH THE BILLIONAIRES CAN DO IS BRING IN ACCOUNTANTS AND LAWYERS TO MAKE SURE THAT I DON'T PAY MUCH OF ANY INCOME THIS YEAR.

AND --.

>> IN YOUR BOOK YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED FOR PRINTABLE A PARTISAN LEADERSHIP.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

AND TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE CHANCES FOR YOU TO WORK WITH THEM ON BIPARTISANSHIP.

>> BIPARTISANSHIP IS NOT ABOUT TAKING EACH OTHER'S CRUMMY IDEAS.

PRINCIPLE BIPARTISANSHIP IS ABOUT MEETING AROUND IDEAS THAT CAN BRING EACH OTHER TOGETHER.

I FELT VERY STRONGLY THAT TO FIX HEALTHCARE YOU HAVE GOT TO GET EVERYBODY COVERED AND IF YOU DON'T, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH COST- CONTAINMENT.

REPUBLICAN SAY WHAT ABOUT THE PRIVATE SECTOR?

I AM OPEN TO THAT, PARTICULARLY IN AREAS OF HEALTH RESEARCH AND INNOVATION.

WE VERY MUCH NEED A ROBUST INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE AND THE LIKE SO PRINCIPLE BIPARTISANSHIP IS NOT ABOUT TAKING BAD IDEAS.

A LOT OF TIMES IN CONGRESS PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE BIPARTISAN BUT REALLY THEY ARE LOOKING FOR IDEOLOGICAL TROPHIES THAT THEY CAN CLAIM SUPPORT.

I THINK THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE AND THEY GAVE THAT WITH CHRIS COX AND BOB BENNETT IN HEALTHCARE.

I WORKED WITH COLLEAGUES ON TAX QUESTIONS AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CONNECTS WITH PEOPLE.

BY THE WAY, YOU NEED CHUTZPAH TO DO IT BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE ON THE SPECIAL INTEREST, YOU HAVE GOT TO TAKE THEM ON WITH SOME CHUTZPAH.

>> SENATOR RON WYDEN, YOU, FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.