January 22, 2025

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP MOVES QUICKLY TO RESHAPE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND ITS ROLE IN THE WORLD.

BRITAIN'S FORMER SPY CHIEF JOHN SAWYERS JOINS US.

>>> THEN -- AS THE GAZA CEASE-FIRE HOLDS, ISRAEL TURNS ON THE WEST BANK IN A BIG WAY.

WE'LL HAVE THE LATEST ON THAT.

>>> PLUS -- THE BIG PICTURE.

WILL THERE BE A PATH TO PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD AS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAID?

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THEY ARE, IN MY RESPECTFUL OPINION, OR DISRESPECTFUL OPINION, THE MOST SHAMEFUL ACTS OF PARDON THE PRESIDENT HAS EVER DONE.

>> MICHEL MARTIN DECISION CUSSES PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MASS JANUARY 6th PARDONS WITH CONSERVATIVE LAUER AND FORMER OFFICIAL PAUL ROSENZWEIG.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WITH A SWEEP OF HIS PEN, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ISSUING EXECUTIVE ORDERS, CHANGING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, FULFILLING CAMPAIGN PROMISES, AND SETTLING SCORES.

BUT HOW WILL ALL THAT AFFECT THE WORLD?

HE PROCLAIMS, QUOTE, AMERICA WILL SOON BE GREATER, STRONGER, AND FAR MORE EXCEPTIONAL THAN EVER BEFORE.

IT'S ONLY BEEN TWO DAYS, AND TRUMP HAS ALREADY WITHDRAWN, AGAIN, FROM THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD AND FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

HE'S CRACKED DOWN HARD ON IMMIGRATION, DECLARING A NATIONAL EMERGENCY, AND ORDERING THOUSANDS OF TROOPS TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

AND HE'S ORDERED ALL GOVERNMENT MAPS AND DOCUMENTS TO RENAME THE GULF OF MEXICO.

HE'S THREATENED TARIFFS ON MEXICO, CHINA, AND NOW RUSSIA.

SO, WHERE IS IT ALL LEADING?

WHAT IS THE PLAN?

OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT KNOWS THOSE SECURITY CHALLENGES AND THE INNER WORKINGS OF FOREIGN POLICY.

SO, JOHN SAWYERS ONCE LED BRITAIN'S SPY AGENCY, MI-6 HERE IN THE UK, AND HE WAS THE UK AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.

SO, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GREAT TO BE BACK.

>> THANK YOU, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE THE PERFECT PERSON TO ASK RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE YOU'VE SEEN ALL THIS, AND, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL TIMES AROUND AND BEEN INVOLVED, SO -- TO YOUR MIND, IS THERE A TRUMP DOCTRINE?

IS THERE A PLAN?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE'S A TRUMP DOCTRINE YET.

I THINK WHAT WE HAVE IS AN APPROACH TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

OBVIOUSLY AMERICA FIRST IS THE -- IS THE STARTING POINT OF THAT.

I THINK HE ALSO HAS A -- A SORT OF BELIEF IN SPHERES OF INFLUENCE.

HE LIKES AND ADMIRES, TO SOME EXTENT, OTHER POWERFUL LEADERS.

AND I THINK SOME OF THIS STUFF, WHICH WE -- WE'RE TAKEN SURPRISED BY, BY GREENLAND AND PANAMA, IS ABOUT CONSOLIDATING AMERICA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, AND WE'LL SEE WHAT THE APPROACH IS GOING TO BE ON EUROPE, ON UKRAINE, ON THE MIDDLE EAST, AND CHINA.

BUT IT'S STEP BY STEP AT THIS STAGE.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S NO OVERALL PLAN, BUT THERE WILL BE A SERIES OF ISSUES THAT HE'LL WANT TO -- >> I'M GOING TO DIG DOWN ON SOME OF THEM, BUT THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS LATEST HEADLINE SAYS TRUMP'S AMERICA FIRST IS NOT REALISM.

DON'T MISTAKE BLUSTER AND CYNICISM -- DO YOU AGREE?

>> WELL, THERE IS SOME BLUSTER IN TRUMP'S APPROACH.

THE IDEA HE WAS GOING TO SOLVE THE UKRAINE WAR IN 24 HOURS WAS -- WAS BLUSTER.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

THE -- PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BEEN ELECTED WITH A VERY STRONG MANDATE BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

HE'S NOT EVERYBODY'S CHOICE, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE THE CHOICE OF MANY EUROPEANS, AS LEADER OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT HE IS THE MAN ELECTED, SO, WE WILL WORK WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I THINK HIS -- THERE IS SOME CONTRADICTIONS IN HIS APPROACH.

FOR EXAMPLE, ON TARIFFS.

I DON'T THINK TARIFFS IS GOING TO BE THE CURE-ALL THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS HOPING IT'S GOING TO BE.

AND HE'S -- HE'S KEEN TO BE A PEACEMAKER, BUT THERE HAS TO BE SOME SUBSTANCE, THERE HAS TO BE SOME EFFECTIVE AMERICAN LEADERSHIP ON THIS, AND LEADERSHIP REQUIRES HAVING FOLLOWERS, AS WELL, AND IT'S NOT CLEAR HOW HE'S GOING TO ACHIEVE THAT.

>> OKAY, SO, ON THAT ISSUE, BEFORE WE GET TO GREENLAND AND SOME OF THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, THE STRONGEST SURVIVE BUSINESS, HE HAS JUST TWEETED TODAY A MESSAGE TO RUSSIA AND TO PUTIN HIMSELF, AND THESE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THE THINGS WE PULLED OUT.

I'M NOT LOOKING TO HURT RUSSIA, I LOVE THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE AND ALWAYS HAD A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN.

THEN, IF WE DON'T MAKE A DEAL AND SOON, I HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE BUT TO PUT HIGH LEVELS OF TAXES, TARIFFS, AND SANCTIONS ON ANYTHING BEING SOLD BY RUSSIA TO THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER PARTICIPATING COUNTRIES.

SO, THERE ARE ALREADY HEAVY SANCTIONS.

THEY HAVEN'T REALLY WORKED IN THE WAY THE WEST THOUGHT THEY WOULD.

AND ACCORDING TO EXPERTS, RUSSIA DOESN'T SELL MUCH TO THE U.S. >> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> SO, WHAT ABOUT THIS TWEET?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A STATEMENT OF INTENT TOWARDS PRESIDENT PUTIN TO TAKE A TOUGHER APPROACH THAN PERHAPS SOME PEOPLE HAVE EXPECTED.

AS YOU SAY, TAXES AND TARIFFS AREN'T GOING TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE TO PUTIN, BECAUSE THERE'S NO U.S./RUSSIAN TRADE OF ANY SUBSTANCE.

SANCTIONS, YOU'D HAVE TO INTERRUPT RUSSIA'S OIL EXPORTS TO INCOUNTRIES LIKE INDIA AND CHINA CHINA.

THAT WOULD TALK -- >> BASICALLY WON'T HAPPEN.

>> THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AVOIDED DOING THAT, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO RAISE THE GLOBAL PRICE OF OIL.

MAYBE THERE'S A TRADEOFF HERE BETWEEN INCREASED OIL PRODUCTION IN THE UNITED STATES AND TIGHTER SANCTIONS ON RUSSIAN OIL.

BUT I DON'T THINK ANY OF THIS IS REALLY GOING TO BE PERSUASIVE FOR PRESIDENT PUTIN.

HE LAUNCHED THIS WAR IN ORDER TO DESTROY THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE UKRAINIAN STATE.

UKRAINIANS ARE RESISTING, FIGHTING FOR THEIR VERY EXISTENCE.

I THINK THE ANSWER, IF PRESIDENT PUTIN IS NOT PREPARED TO REACH SOME FORM OF FAIR DEAL, OR RECOGNIZING WHAT THIS -- FREEZING THE CONFLICT ON THE PRESENT BORDER, HE'S NOT PREPARED TO EVEN DO THAT.

THEN THE ONLY REAL ANSWER FOR THE UNITED STATES, THE U.S. PRESIDENT, IS TO REINFORCE THE LEVEL OF MILITARY SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND PROVIDE THE WEAPONS AND THE WHERE WITH ALL TO ENABLE UKRAINE TO DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST THE RUSSIAN INVASION.

>> WHICH SOUNDS LIKE A 180 FROM TRUMP, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, BUT THEY HAVE SORT OF HINTED THAT THEY MIGHT MAKE THAT THREAT IF PUTIN DOESN'T COME TO THE TABLE AND ET CETERA.

SO, I GUESS WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

BUT JUST TO GO BACK TO YOUR SPHERES OF INFLUENCE THING, THAT MEANS, ESSENTIALLY, THEN, THAT HE'S QUITE HAPPY TO HUNKER DOWN BEHIND OF, SORT OF, WHATEVER WALL OF INFLUENCE, BUT THAT WOULD INCLUDE, THEN, ALLOWING PUTIN TO HAVE HIS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, WHICH HE WANTS, AND WHICH HE THINKS UKRAINE IS PART OF.

>> YEAH.

>> AND IT POTENTIALLY CHINA, AS WELL, SO, MAYBE UKRAINE, BYE-BYE, MAYBE TAIWAN, BYE-BYE FOR THE UNITED STATES.

>> GEORGE ORWELL WROTE A BOOK "1984," IN WHICH THE WORLD WAS DOMINATED BY THREE BIG STATES.

EURASIA, WHICH LOOKS LIKE RUSSIA, EAST ASIA, WHICH LOOKS LIKE CHINA, AND OCEANIA, WHICH IS VERY MUCH LIKE DOMINATING THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE SO, I THINK THERE ARE SOME PARALLELS THERE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S EXACT.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL BE UNDER PRESSURE TO STAND UP TO CHINA, IF THEY PRESSURE TAIWAN, TO STAND UP TO RUSSIA ON UKRAINE.

SO, IT'S NOT AS IF IT'S A REPLICA OF ORWELL'S "1984," BUT I THINK THERE ARE -- THERE'S A RISK OF MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION, PARTLY BECAUSE THE RULES-BASED APPROACH TO -- TO THE -- TO WORLD ORDER, AS HENRY KISSINGER WOULD HAVE CALLED IT, HAS BEEN UNDERMINED BY THIS PRESIDENT, BECAUSE HE WANTS TO REPLACE A RULES-BASED APPROACH WITH A POWER-BASED APPROACH.

>> OKAY, SO THAT BRINGS ME TO, AND BY THE WAY, GEORGE ORWELL, HE WAS WRITING NEARLY A CENTURY AGO.

THIS IS ALL BIG POWER POLICY FROM THE PAST.

BUT THE FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER AND OTHER OFFICIALS, WHEN TRUMP STARTED TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BUYING GREENLAND AND TAKING THE PANAMA CANAL, ESSENTIALLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE AMERICANS ARE GOING TO GO IN FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE STRONGEST, YOU KNOW, THE VERY -- DARWIN YAN.

I PUT THIS INTERACTION TO OUTGOING SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN TWO DAYS BEFORE THE END OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN.

WOULD WHAT DO YOU THINK, THEN, WOULD BE THE CONSEQUENCE, IF PRESIDENT TRUMP PULLED A PUTIN, SO TO SPEAK, AND ANNEXED GREENLAND, OR INVADED CANADA, MEXICO, WHATEVER?

>> THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND SO -- OF COURSE, NOT A GOOD IDEA TO BEGIN WITH, BUT NOT MUCH POINT REALLY SPENDING TIME TALKING ABOUT IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE HAVE A VERY STRONG RELATIONSHIP, OF COURSE, WITH DENMARK, WHICH IS, AFTER ALL, A NATO ALLY.

I'VE BEEN TO GREENLAND MYSELF.

WE HAVE A MILITARY BASE THERE THAT'S CRITICAL.

WE HAVE IMPORTANT ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIPS.

AND THOSE CAN GROW DEEPER AND STRONGER, THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING.

BUT NOT -- NOT BY TAKING THE ROUTE THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED.

>> I -- I GUESS YOU AGREE, EVEN THOUGH HISTORICALLY, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO TRUMAN AND BEFORE, THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT IT.

IT WAS A DIFFERENT ERA WITH DIFFERENT CHALLENGES.

>> LOOK, GREENLAND IS A STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT LAND MASS IN THE ARCTIC.

THE DANES ARE ADMINISTERING IT EFFECTIVELY, BUT IT'S A VERY OLD ARRANGEMENT, AND THE GREENLAND PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH IT.

THEY WANT TO CHANGE.

I'M NOT SURE -- >> BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF AMERICA.

>> WELL, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WANT TO BE PART OF.

>> THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T.

>> I'M SURE A WEAK INDEPENDENT GREENLAND IS NECESSARILY IN OUR INTERESTS.

I THINK THE RIGHT WAIL FORWARD IS FOR THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA, CLOSELY INVOLVED IN THIS, AND DENMARK, TO FIND SOME FORM OF AGREEMENT, WHICH STRENGTHENS THE -- THE GREENLAND ANCHORING IN THE WEST, AND DOESN'T ALLOW THE RUSSIANS AND THE CHINESE TO MANIPULATE THE SMALL AND -- GREENLAND POPULATION AND TRY TO BUY UP INFLUENCE, IN THE WAY THE CHINESE HAVE DONE VERY EXTENSIVELY IN SMALL ISLAND STATES IN THE PACIFIC, FOR EXAMPLE.

WELL, THIS IS A BIG ISLAND TERRITORY AND IT'S STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT.

I DON'T THINK THE STATUS QUO IS ACTUALLY SUSTAINABLE.

SO, AS SO OFTEN WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, HE PRODUCES -- HE PUTS FORWARD A RATHER SORT OF GRAND AND AGGRESSIVE AND PROVOCATIVE APPROACH, BUT THERE'S A SEED OF -- OF REALISM AND IMPORTANCE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING UNDERNEATH THAT.

>> HOW ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

YOU WROTE A PIECE FOR THE FT, WHERE YOU SAID THE OLD WARHORSES OF THE MIDDLE EAST ARE GOING TO BE CHALLENGED.

A COUPLE OF THINGS YOU SAID WHICH STOOD OUT FOR ME, IF WE THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A PALESTINIAN STATE OR EVEN MOVEMENT TOWARDS ONE, YOU THINK YOU SAID IT WILL BE NO CLOSER IN A YEAR THAN IT IS TODAY.

NUMBER ONE.

AND THEN YOU SAID, THE WEAKENING OF IRAN AFTER, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON, PROVIDES A CERTAIN OPPORTUNITY OPENING OR WHATEVER.

WHAT SORT OF OPPORTUNITY DO YOU THINK THAT PROVIDES?

IS IT ONE TO GET ANOTHER NEGOTIATED ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENT WITH THEM?

IS IT ONE TO GO TO WAR WITH THEM?

LIKE ISRAEL SEEMS TO WANT TO DO?

>> LOOK, IRAN IS IN A MUCH WEAKENED POSITION, I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE SUCCESS THE ISRAELIS HAVE HAD FROM THE DISASTROUS POSITION THEY WERE IN AFTER THE HAMAS ASSAULT ON 7 OCTOBER, 16 MONTHS AGO, TO WHERE THEY ARE NOW, WHERE THEY'VE TURNED THE TABLES, NOT JUST ON HAMAS, BUT ON HEZBOLLAH, AND ON IRAN ITSELF AND THE SYRIAN REGIME HAS COLLAPSED.

SO, THERE'S BEEN A BIG MOVE IN ISRAEL'S FAVOR.

>> YEAH.

>> AND AGAINST IRAN.

I THINK IRANIANS HAVE GOT A LOT OF THINKING TO DO ABOUT, ARE THEY -- ABOUT HOW THEY CONTINUE THEIR PRESENT REGIME, THEIR PRESENT SYSTEM IN IRAN.

THEIR FORWARD DEFENSE STRATEGY, THROUGH PROXY MILITIAS, HAS BEEN SWEPT ASIDE.

NOW, ARE THEY GOING TO GO FOR A MORE TRADITIONAL DEFENSE APPROACH OF SEEKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS AS A DETERRENT, IN WHICH CASE, I THINK THAT WILL BE VERY PROVOCATIVE, AND SUCCESSIVE U.S. PRESIDENTS HAVE VOWED THAT IRAN WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO -- >> YOU WROTE THAT THE FACT THAT ISRAEL SHOWED UP, YOU KNOW, CONVENTIONAL FORCES, MIGHT LEAD THEM TO DECIDE THEY MIGHT NEED TO GO -- >> WELL, THE IRANIANS, THERE WILL BE SOME IN IRAN WHO HAVE SAID, WE NEED A NUCLEAR ARM, AND THIS MAY STRENGTHEN THEIR ARM.

BUT THERE WILL BE OVER IRANIANS WHO WILL LOOK FORWARD 20 YEARS AND SAID, LOOK, WE JUST CAN'T BECOME A COMPLETELY BELEAGUERED COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME CONNECTIVITY WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

THERE ARE OTHER LEADERS WHO HAVE BEEN IN CHARGE OF, OR COME TO POWER IN -- IN STUMBLING AUTOCRACIES.

YOU HAVE MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN IN SAUDI ARABIA, YOU HAD GORBACHEV IN RUSSIA, WHERE THEY DON'T CHANGE THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, BUT THEY OPEN UP TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

NOW, IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN IN IRAN?

I'M NOT SURE.

I WOULD -- I WOULD THINK IT LESS LIKELY.

>> WELL, IRAN IS OPEN, AS WELL, BUT THE WORLD ISN'T OPEN TO IT.

>> WELL, I THINK THE -- I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEEK A -- A BETTER DEAL WITH THE IRANIANS.

NOW, WHETHER THE IRANIANS WILL TAKE THAT UP IS THEIR DECISION AND I'VE NEGOTIATED WITH THE IRANIANS, THEY'RE DIFFICULT PEOPLE TO DEAL WITH, AND THEY MAY WELL PURSUE BOTH TRACKS AT ONCE, PURSUING NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND NEGOTIATED DEAL.

WELL, THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE ACCEPTABLE.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE THEIR DECISIONS FAIRLY SOON.

IF THEY GO DOWN THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS ROUTE, I THINK THERE WILL BE A SERIOUS CONFLICT, AND NETANYAHU WILL PROBABLY GET HIS WISH TO TAKE DECISIVE ACTION AGAINST -- THROUGH MILITARY MEANS, THROUGH IRAN'S -- AGAINST IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN ABOUT THE OTHER FALLOUT FROM OCTOBER 7th.

AS YOU KNOW, A WHOLE NEW RAFT OF OFFICIALS BEING NOMINATED AND CONFIRMED, SO, THE NEW U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N. IS A WOMAN CALLED ELISE STEFANIK, CURRENT CONGRESSWOMAN, HER CONFIRMATION HEARING, SHE SAYS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S ANTI-SEMITIC ROT AT THE U.N., AND SHE ALSO, WHEN ASKED WHETHER SHE AGREED WITH THE STATEMENT THAT'S BEEN SAID BY SOME TRUMP OFFICIALS THAT ISRAEL HAS, QUOTE, A BIBLICAL RIGHT TO THE WEST BANK, SHE SAID YES.

WHERE -- WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT, GIVEN WHERE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SEES THE BEST PROSPECT OF SECURITY FOR ISRAEL?

>> WELL, THE -- I THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, AS YOU CALL IT, HAS BEEN UNITED, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, THAT THE LONG-TERM SECURITY OF ISRAEL CAN ONLY BE UNDERPINNED BY AN INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE, LIVING IN PEACE ALONGSIDE A SECURE ISRAEL.

NOW, INCREASINGLY, ISRAELI POLITICIANS AND AMERICAN POLITICIANS ARE MOVING AWAY FROM THAT IDEA, AND IT'S -- I DON'T THINK IT'S A QUESTION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, I THINK THAT'S THE WRONG WAY -- >> THAT'S ABOUT THE U.N., SHE WAS SAYING.

>> YEAH.

AND THE U.N. IS -- LET'S STEP BACK A LITTLE BIT.

THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS TO THE U.N. FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S A POLITICAL, A SECURITY U.N., WHICH MAINLY ON RATES THROUGH THE SECURITY COUNCIL.

AND THAT REQUIRES THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE POWERS.

SINCE THE GREAT POWER RIVALRY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES, CHINA AND RUSSIA, THE SECURITY COUNCIL HASN'T FUNCTIONED EFFECTIVELY IN THE LAST 15 YEARS.

THEN, THERE'S THE OPERATIONAL SIDE OF THE U.N. NOW, THEY DO REALLY IMPORTANT WORK, WHETHER IT'S THE U.N.

AGENCIES, I THINK ELISE STEFANIK SINGLED OUT UNICEF AND THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM, TWO EXAMPLES OF WELL-RUN AND SUCCESSFUL AGENCIES.

BUT THE UNITED STATES HAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, WHICH, IN MY VIEW, HAS DONE A LOT OF VERY GOOD WORK.

YES, IT STUMBLED AND GOT SOME THINGS WRONG EARLY STAGE OF THE COVID PANDEMIC, BUT IN OTHER AREAS, IT'S BEEN REALLY HELPFUL IN DEALING WITH AND STOPPING THE SPREAD OF VIRUSES AND DISEASES THAT COULD HAVE BECOME GLOBAL PANDEMICS.

AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE UNITED STATES WITHDRAWS FROM THESE AGENCIES, IT HANDS A GIFT TO CHINA.

IT MAKES IT MUCH EASIER FOR CHINA TO BECOME AN INFLUENTIAL PLAYER IN THESE ORGANIZATIONS.

AND THE WEST HAS HAD -- THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE TOGETHER HAVE HAD A LEADING POSITION IN MOST OF THESE AGENCIES.

THE UNITED STATES PEELING AWAY, IT JUST -- IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS, IT JUST REMOVES A LOT OF FUNDING AND INTLUNS.

.

>> SO, TO THAT IDEA OF INTELLIGENCE, WHAT IT DOES TO CHINA AND ALL THE REST OF US -- OR TO THE U.S. ARE YOU CONCERNED BY ALL THE FACTS SURROUNDING THE NOMINEE FOR THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, TULSI GABBARD?

SHE BASICALLY HAS TO ANSWER FOR HER PRO-RUSSIA, PRO-SYRIA, YOU KNOW -- CONVERSATIONS.

>> WELL, I NEVER MET HER.

>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE UNITED STATES TO HAVE THAT -- IN THE PAST, THAT PERSON WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BROUGHT BEFORE THE SENATE FOR CONFIRMATION.

>> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

AND I THINK SENATORS HAVE GOT A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE SUITED TO TOP JOBS GET THROUGH TO THEM.

ESPECIALLY THOSE IN THE MOST SENSITIVE AREAS.

AND WE HAVE A VERY CLOSE INTELLIGENCE PARTNERSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, WITH THE OTHER ALLIES, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, AND NEW ZEALAND.

THE UNITED STATES IS THE MOST POWERFUL INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IN THE WORLD.

AND ONE OF ITS BIGGEST CHALLENGES IS RUSSIA, AND ANOTHER CHALLENGE IS CHINA.

WELL, TO HAVE SOMEONE WHO IS A DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE WHO BASICALLY TAKES A VERY PRO-RUSSIAN APPROACH, THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR AMERICA AND ITS PARTNERS, AS WELL.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH AN INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY WHERE THE MOST SENIOR FIGURE IN IT, THE CABINET MEMBER IN IT, IS BASICALLY SYMPATHETIC TO OUR BIGGEST ENEMY?

>> WE'LL HAVE TO HAVE YOU COME BACK, HOPEFULLY, TO TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UK, THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP.

BECAUSE THIS ADMINISTRATION, CERTAINLY ELON MUSK IS CASTING ASPERSIONS.

>> ANOTHER DAY.

I WOULDN'T TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY IF I WERE YOU.

>> ALL RIGHT, FROM YOUR MOUTH, OKAY.

GREAT.

SO, JOHN SAWYERS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> NOW, AS THE PRECARIOUS CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA DOES HOLD FOR NOW, ISRAEL IS TURNING ITS SIGHTS TO THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, WHERE IT IS CARRYING OUT A MAJOR MILITARY OPERATION IN THE JENIN REFUGEE CAMP.

ISRAEL SAYS IT'S AIMED AT ELIMINATING TERRORISTS AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

THE PALESTINIAN HEALTH MINISTRY SAYS AT LEAST TEN PEOPLE WERE KILLED ON TUESDAY THERE.

MEANTIME, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT EXPRESSES DOUBTS ABOUT THE CURRENT GAZA CEASE-FIRE, WHICH COULD EVENTUALLY LEAD TO A PERMANENT END TO THE WAR, AND A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, AS WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA JOINS US FROM TEL AVIV WITH THE LATEST.

SO, BIANNA, ON THIS CEASE-FIRE, WHICH EVERYBODY IS LOOKING AT, YOU'VE BEEN TALKING TO ISRAELI OFFICIALS ABOUT THAT.

WHAT SENSE ARE YOU GETTING?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I SPOKE EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, ACTUALLY, THE DAY THAT THE CEASE-FIRE WENT INTO EFFECT.

HE IS SOMEBODY IN THIS CABINET WHO ACTUALLY VOTED FOR THE CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE DEAL, WHICH HAD A MAJORITY APPROVAL, BUT HE WAS HONEST AND DIRECT ABOUT THE DISAGREEMENTS AND THE DIFFICULTY WITHIN THE CABINET TO GET TO THIS FINISH LINE HERE, TO CROSS THE FINISH LINE, TO GET THIS DEAL THROUGH.

WE'VE SEEN THE RESIGNATION OF THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY, HE DID NOT SUPPORT THIS DEAL.

AND THE FINANCE MINISTER HAS THREATENED THAT HE WOULD LEAVE THE GOVERNMENT IF PHASE TWO IS IMPLEMENTED.

NOW, THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER TOLD ME THAT HE IS COMMITTED TO SEEING THAT ALL OF THE HOSTAGES RETURN, BUT AS WE KNOW, THAT WOULD ONLY HAPPEN, NOT WHEN JUST PHASE ONE ENDS, BUT WHEN PHASE TWO AND PHASE THREE ARE IMPLEMENTED.

AND I ASKED HIM, HOW SERIOUS HE WAS, AS A MEMBER OF THIS GOVERNMENT AND CABINET, TO SEE THAT THROUGH.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> WE ARE COMMITTED TO THE OBJECTIVES, AND IT IS -- IT IS NOT AUTOMATIC TO MOVE FROM ONE PHASE TO THE OTHER PHASE.

AND ALSO, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AGREED, IT'S NOT AUTOMATIC.

WE WILL NEGOTIATE WITH GOOD FAITH.

WE WANT THE FULL THING TO BE SUCCESSFUL, BUT WE WILL NOT ABANDON THE OBJECTIVES.

IF WE COULD ACHIEVE THESE OBJECTIVES IN ANOTHER WAY, OKAY, WAR IS NOT OBJECTIVE FOR ITSELF, BUT WE WILL MEET OUR OBJECTIVES.

WE WILL NOT LEAVE HAMAS AS THE RULING POWER IN GAZA STRIP, BECAUSE IT WILL BE A TRAGEDY FOR ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS.

>> AND CHRISTIANE, IT WAS THOSE IMAGES, THOSE WELL-ORCHESTRATED IMAGES BY HAMAS AS THEY SURROUNDED THOSE THREE HOSTAGES THAT WERE RELEASED ON SUNDAY IN DROVES, TO SHOW A SIGN OF FORCE, A SHOW OF FORCE, TO BOTH THE WORLD AND ISRAELIS THAT THEIR LEADERSHIP MAY HAVE BEEN DECIMATED AND THAT A NUMBER, THOUSANDS OF THEIR FIGHTERS MAY BE KILLED, BUT THAT WAS A MESSAGE TO SEND TO ISRAEL THAT THEY ARE STILL IN CHARGE OF GAZA, AND AS WE KNOW, BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND MANY OTHER NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND WESTERN ALLIES HAVE BEEN PRESSURING ISRAEL TO PUSH FOR A SPECIFIC DAY AFTER PLAN TO SEE THAT SOMEBODY, AN ORGANIZATION, PERHAPS THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, ANYONE ELSE BUT HAMAS WOULD BE GOVERNING IN GAZA.

>> IT'S VITAL, AND I'M GOING TO PUT THAT TO MY NEXT GUEST, WHO IS THE PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE HERE, BUT FIRST, JUST BEFORE LETTING YOU TWO, WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT WAS REPORTED EARLIER THIS WEEK, AND ESSENTIALLY, AN OP-ED TITLED BASICALLY TRUMP TEAM BEWARE, NETANYAHU IS LYING AND TRYING TO SAN STAGE THE GAZA CEASE-FIRE DEAL.

HE BASICALLY SAID NETANYAHU HAD TO PROMISE THE EXTREME RIGHT, SOME OF WHOM WHO HAVE RESIGNED, THAT THE CEASE-FIRE IS ONLY TEMPORARY, AND THAT SOON ENOUGH, HE'LL ORDER A RENEWAL OF THE WAR.

EVEN -- EVEN, ACCORDING TO THIS OP-ED, SACRIFICING THE LIVES OF LIVING HOSTAGES CURRENTLY IN GAZA.

SO, THOSE WORDS ARE COMING FROM HIS OWN LOYALISTS.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THAT?

IS THAT -- IS THAT MAKING WAVES OR NEWS INSIDE ISRAEL?

>> WELL, THE TABLES HAVE TURNED HERE, CHRISTIANE.

IDENTITIES NO COINCIDENCE THAT AFTER 15 MONTHS OF PRESSURE FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO AGREE TO A SIMILAR DEAL THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU DID, IT TOOK PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS MIDEAST ENVOY ARRIVAL'S HERE IN ISRAEL, MEETING WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND THOUGH OFFICIALS WILL SAY THERE WAS NO PRESSURING INVOLVED, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER, JUST LOOKING AT THE TIMING OF WHEN PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AGREED TO THIS DEAL.

SO, ONE FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIAL THAT I SPOKE WITH SAID NOW THE BALL IS IN DONALD TRUMP'S COURT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF HOW MUCH PATIENCE HE HAS WITH THE PRIME MINISTER, BECAUSE HE MAY BE THE ONE ULTIMATELY CALLING THE SHOTS HERE, NO MATTER WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER IS TELLING COLIGS PARTNERS, OR THOSE WHO ARE THREATENING TO LEAVE RIGHT NOW, IF THEY DON'T AGREE TO GO BACK INTO GAZA.

THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF NOTED THAT HE'S NOT SURE ABOUT THE STABILITY OF THE CEASE-FIRE, BUT FROM WHAT I'M HEARING NOW, AT LEAST IN THE EARLY DAYS, PEOPLE ARE PUTTING A LOT OF WEIGHT ON THE POWER THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS OVER THE PRIME MINISTER IN WAYS THAT HIS PREDECESSOR MAY NOT HAVE.

>> REALLY GREAT TO HAVE YOU THERE, THANK YOU, BIANNA, FOR JOINING US FROM TEL AVIV.

>>> MEANTIME, AS BIANNA JUST SAID, TRUMP IS THROWING FRESH DOUBT ON THE CEASE-FIRE DEAL THAT HE'S BEEN CLAIMING CREDIT FOR.

NOW, HE SAYS HE'S NOT CONFIDENT THAT IT WILL HOLD.

ALL OF THIS ADDS UP TO INCREASING UNCERTAINTY FOR PALESTINIANS, AS WELL.

PENDING ANOTHER EXCHANGE OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES FOR PALESTINIAN PRISONERS THIS WEEKEND.

MY NEXT GUEST IS THE HEAD OF THE PALESTINIAN MISSION HERE IN THE UK, AND HE HELD THAT POSITION IN THE UNITED STATES UNTIL PRESIDENT TRUMP CLOSED THE MISSION DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

SO, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I GUESS A COUPLE OF THINGS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CLAIMED CREDIT FOR THIS CEASE-FIRE, AND EVEN SOME HAMAS POLITICAL OFFICIALS IN VARIOUS FORUMS HAVE SAID THAT, YEAH, I MEAN, HE CONCENTRATED PEOPLE'S MINDS.

NOW, HE'S SAYING THAT HE'S NOT SO SURE.

HIS ENVOY APPARENTLY PLANS TO GO TO GAZA TO MAKE SURE THINGS ARE HOLDING.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK IT DID SHOW THE LAST FEW DAYS THAT WHEN THE U.S. HAS THE LEADERSHIP AND THE WILL TO CHANGE THINGS, IT HAPPENS.

IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

AND BEFORE WE WANT TO CONTINUE SEEING THAT LEADERSHIP AND THAT WILL, BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE STOPPED WAS CARNAGE, CATASTROPHIC IN EVERY SENSE, AND WE SHALL NOT SEE THAT AGAIN HAPPENING.

SO -- >> YOU'RE CONFIDENT ABOUT THAT?

>> YES.

WE NEED TO HELP HIM AND OUR INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS TO MAKE SURE THE LAST 15 MONTHS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ATTEND TO THE UNPRECEDENTED HUMANITARIAN CRISIS SITUATION CATASTROPHE IN GAZA.

AND, YOU KNOW, I SAT ON THIS CHAIR ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER -- >> I REMEMBER.

>> AND I CAME HERE TO YOUR SHOW TO WARN THE WORLD THAT ISRAEL WILL WAGE A WAR AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AND LOOK AT THE RESULTS.

LOOK AT THE LAST 15 MONTHS.

AND HOW DO WE LEARN THE LESSONS?

I MEAN, I WAS READING A U.N. REPORT TODAY THAT ISRAEL HAS LITERALLY LEFT GAZA WITH 50 MILLION TONS OF RUBBLE.

MORE THAN QUARTER OF A MILLION OF HOUSING UNITS GONE.

1.8 MILLION PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS.

AND I'M NOT EVEN MENTIONING THAT ALL THE NUMBERS YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE MURDERED, MOSTLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN, HAVE BEEN UNDERREPORTED, UNDERCOUNTING.

AND THEREFORE, MOVING STRAIGHT FROM THIS POINT IS WHERE WE LEARN THE LESSON, AND WE, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, ARE DONE EXPLAINING OUR SITUATION.

WE'RE DONE EXPLAINING OUR SITUATION.

WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD, AND WE NEED TO USE THE MOMENTUM NOW AND TURN THIS TRAGEDY INTO OPPORTUNITY.

>> SO, A FEW, YOU KNOW, EVEN NOW, CERTAINLY AMONGST CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE ISRAELI COALITION, THEY'RE CASTING DOUBTS ON THE ACT TO MOVE FORWARD, AS WE JUST DISCUSSED, INCLUDING SAYING, BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, SAUDI ARABIA HAS SAID THAT WITHOUT PROGRESS OR PLEDGE ON A PALESTINIAN STATE, IT WON'T NORMALIZE WITH ISRAEL.

AND THEY ARE SAYING, WELL, WE HAVEN'T PROMISED THAT TO THE SAUDIS, IT'S NOT EVEN IN THE OFFING.

NECESSARILY NOW.

>> THAT'S THE HEART OF THE MATTER, CHRISTIANE.

THE HEART OF THE MATTER, ALL THIS THAT IS HAPPEN, BECAUSE ISRAEL HAS NO VISION.

HAS NO PLAN.

HAS NO HORIZON FOR THE FUTURE.

THE ONLY HORIZON THEY HAVE IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING IN THE WEST BANK AS WE SPEAK RIGHT NOW, AND I'M SURE YOU'RE FOLLOWING -- >> WELL, I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT IT.

>> AND THE MURDERS, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THIS FANATICAL GOVERNMENT IS AFTER.

IT'S AN IDEOLOGICAL WAR.

IT'S NOT A SECURITY WAR.

AND BY THE WAY, SPEAKING OF SECURITY AND IDEOLOGY, THE WAR ON GAZA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECURITY.

IT WAS AN IDEOLOGICAL WAR TO PROTECT THEIR OWN OCCUPATION.

AND NOW, WE NEED TO LEARN -- WE NEED TO LEARN THE LESSONS OF THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

>> SO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, BECAUSE, AS YOU'VE HEARD, THE ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAY THEY'RE GOING INTO -- AROUND JENIN IN OTHER PLACES TO DO WHAT THEY DID IN GAZA, IN OTHER WORDS, TO REMOVE TERRORISM AND ITS INFRASTRUCTURE, AND THERE IS A FACT, AND I THINK THE P.A.

HAS SAID IT, HAMAS IS SENDING OPERATIVES TO THE WEST BANK WITH WEAPONS, AND WHERE IT'S LOSING IN GAZA, IT'S REINFORCING IN THE WEST BANK.

IS THAT A PROBLEM FOR THE GOVERNMENT THERE THAT YOU REPRESENT?

THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY?

>> OF COURSE IT'S A PROBLEM.

AND ISRAEL IS SET ON ONE THING.

TO UNDERMINE THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT AND TO UNDERMINE WITH IT ANY POSSIBILITY OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THAT THE SETTLEMENT EXPANSION IS MUSHROOMING.

YOU ARE SEEING THE SETTLER TERRORISM, ONLY TWO NIGHTS AGO, BURNING MANY VILLAGES AROUND RAMALLAH, YOU ARE SEEING THE E REX OF NEW CHECKPOINTS ALL OVER THE WEST BANK.

NOW, YOU HAVE ALMOST 900 CHECKPOINTS AND ROAD BLOCKS ALL OVER THE WEST BANK.

THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED.

THEY ARE SUFFOCATING ANY POSSIBILITY -- >> AND WHO DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFECT THAT?

YOU SAID WHEN THE U.S.

WANTS TO, IT CAN.

OBVIOUSLY TRUMP HAS A BIG MEGAPHONE, A BIG, YOU KNOW, VOICE, AND INFLUENCE.

DO YOU THINK THAT HE HAS TOLD THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY NEED TO -- THEY NEED TO -- THEY NEED TO, YOU KNOW, GET SERIOUS, LIKE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DID, ON THE WEST BANK?

I MEAN, HE'S REMOVED SANCTIONS ON EVEN THE VIOLENT SETTLERS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD -- >> AND I HOPE SOMEBODY TOLD HIM THAT ON THE VERY SAME NIGHT HE WAS REMOVING THE SANCTIONS, THE SETTLERS SET FIRE OF PEOPLE'S HOMES AND CARS AND PROPERTIES AND THESE SANCTIONS NEED TO COME BACK AND BE EXPANDED.

BUT I'VE HEARD HIM ALSO, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE -- I MET PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THE FIRST MANY TIMES, AND I TELL YOU, AS A PERSON, HE DOES ALWAYS ARGUE THAT HE WANTS TO BE THE PEACEMAKER, THE UNIFIER, THE ONE WHO BROUGHT PEACE TO THE MIDDLE EAST, AND WE WANT THE SAME.

BUT NOW, I THINK, AFTER ALL THAT EXPERIENCE, WE HAVE A FRESH START, AND A FRESH BEGINNING, TO TAKE A NEW LOOK INTO THE SITUATION.

IT NEEDS HEAVY LIFTING.

IT NEEDS HEAVY LIFTING, AND THE HEAVY LIFTING, IT HAS GOT TO DO WITH NETANYAHU AND THIS COALITION.

WE NEED TO BUILD LEVERAGE.

>> AND WITH HAMAS, OBVIOUSLY.

HAMAS PUT ON A SHOW OF FORCE DURING THE EXCHANGE.

IT'S FREAKED EVERYBODY OUT IN ISRAEL.

THEY'VE SAID, LOOK, OUR WAR AIMS WERE NOT ACHIEVED, HAMAS IS STILL IN CHARGE, WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE NOT IN CHARGE.

AND THERE THEY ARE WITH THEIR BANDANNAS AND I DON'T KNOW, WEAPONS, COMPLETE SHOW OF FORCE THERE.

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT, DO YOU THINK?

AND HOW HELPFUL IS THAT TO YOU?

>> THAT'S A CAUSE OF REFLECTION IN THE PART OF ISRAEL.

EXACTLY.

BECAUSE AFTER 15 MONTHS OF GENOCIDE, OF MASS MURDER AND DESTRUCTION, THIS IS WHAT THEY GET.

>> RIGHT.

ACCORDING TO THE U.S., THEY'RE RECRUITING AS MANY NEW AS THEY HAVE LOST.

BUT MY POINT IS, HOW DOES IT HELP THE SITUATION GOING FORWARD?

HOW DOES IT HELP YOU, WHO ARE NOT A HAMAS-NIC?

>> THIS IS NOT ABOUT HAMAS, AS WE'VE SAID FROM DAY ONE.

SO LONG AS WE THINK HAMAS OR OTHER PALESTINIAN GROUPS ARE THE PROBLEM, THEY ARE THE PRODUCT OF THE CONFLICT.

SHORT OF ISRAEL REALIZING THAT, IT WILL KEEP CREATING AND REPEATING THE SAME SITUATION AS IT HAS BEEN DOING FOR 76 YEARS.

AND LOOK AT THE CONSEQUENCES NOW.

BY DESTROYING MOST OF GAZA, DECIMAING GAZA, BY HAVING 70,000 FAMILIES WHO HAVE LOST LOVED ONES, HAVING MORE THAN 17,000 PALESTINIAN ORPHANS, CHILDREN.

THEY HAVE IMPROVED THE SECURITY?

THEY HAVE REALLY -- THEY ARE REALLY UNDERMINED HAMAS OR ANYBODY'S -- ANY OTHER PARTIES ABILITY TO RECRUIT?

TO THE CONTRARY.

ALL WHAT THEY DID IS THEY HAVE SENT US MANY STEPS AWAY FROMMAL RESOLUTION.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE NEED TO GO BACK TO THE FUTURE.

WE'VE SEEN THE PAST.

THE PAST IS FULL OF GRIEVANCES.

WHAT HAPPENED TO GAZA WILL HAVE TO BE RECORDED IN HUMAN CONSCIENCE AS THE FIRST EVER LIVESTREAMED GENOCIDE.

WHEN I HEARD PRESIDENT BIDEN ONLY COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, JUST BEFORE HE LEFT OFFICE, SPEAKING ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION BETWEEN HIM AND NETANYAHU, WHEN HE WARNED NETANYAHU NOT TO CARPET BOMB GAZA AND NETANYAHU TOLD HIM THAT, YOU DID THAT WITH GERMANY AND WITH JAPAN, AND BIDEN RESPONDED, THAT'S WHY WE HAD THE U.N., AND STILL, PRESIDENT BIDEN FAILED TO PREVENT -- TO PREVENT, LET ALONE STOP THE GENOCIDE, IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO SEE, IF ISRAEL -- BECAUSE ISRAEL IS GOING TO REPEAT THIS.

THE ONLY OPTION ISRAEL HAS RIGHT NOW IS VIOLENCE.

THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.

>> BUT THE ONLY OPTION YOU ALL HAVE, ALSO, IF YOU WANT TO PLAN AS ESPOUSED BY PEOPLE WHO CAN SUPPORT YOU, IS TO HAVE A REFORMED P.A.

I ASSUME YOU ADMIT THAT -- I MEAN, IT'S JUST A CATASTROPHE, YOUR LEADERSHIP, AND HAMAS IS BUSY TELLING THE WORLD IN VARIOUS FORUMS THAT THEY, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY WANT TO -- A NEW ELECTION, THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO RUN THE EXISTING -- I THINK THEY SAID COUNCIL, WILL CONTINUE TO RUN, UNTIL -- IN GAZA, UNTIL THERE ARE ELECTIONS AND GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING OTHER THAN PALESTINIAN POLICING ANY SECURITY IN THIS POST-CEASE-FIRE ENVIRONMENT.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THE BIG PALESTINIAN POLITICAL PROGRAM NEEDS TO START AND END?

>> WITH THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

START AND END.

IT'S IS THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO DECIDE, AND WILL DECIDE ON THEIR OWN LEADERSHIPS.

THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE THEIR NATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

THEY HAVE A STATE RECOGNIZED BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

THAT STATE IS OCCUPIED.

THEY HAVE A GOVERNMENT OF THAT STATE, THAT IS THE PLO, THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION ORGANIZATION.

>> IS IT EFFECTIVE?

>> OF COURSE IT IS EFFECTIVE, BECAUSE IT HAS THE LEGITIMACY.

YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE BETWEEN PERFORMANCE, EFFECTIVENESS, THE NEED FOR REFORM, OR LEGITIMATE.

>> AND IT'S DEEPLY UNPOPULAR.

>> AND DEMOCRATIZATION AMONG OUR OWN INSTITUTIONS.

THE ONLY LEGITIMATE UMBRELLA OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IS THE PLO, AND THAT IS UNCONTESTED BY ANY PALESTINIAN.

THESE INSTITUTIONS EXIST.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE IN POWER, AND THERE, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PROCESS OF ELECTION IS CONVENED AND WE NEED TO REMOVE ISRAEL'S VETO OVER OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

>> AND DO YOU -- >> AND THERE IS IS A PREREQUISITE FOR THAT.

WE'VE TRIED MANY TIMES, WE'VE TRIED IN 2021, THE PRESIDENT ISSUED AN ELECTION DECREE AND THEN BOTH -- >> DO YOU THINK HE WOULD DO ANOTHER ONE?

IS NOW THE TIME -- >> NOW WE NEED TO ATTEND TO THE WOUNDS OF OUR PEOPLE.

>> I UNDERSTAND.

>> NOW, WE HAVE A CATASTROPHE, BOTH IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK, BUT YES, WE MUST CONVENE ELECTIONS AT THE EARLIER OPPORTUNITY, AND THERE WAS A PRESIDENTIAL DECREE ONLY TWO MONTHS AGO ABOUT THE PROCESS, IF ANYTHING HAPPENS, THE HEAD OF THE PNC, THE PALESTINE NATIONAL COUNCIL, WILL TAKE OVER FOR 90 DAYS ONLY, AND THE TIMELINE IS VERY IMPORTANT, IN THESE 90 DAYS, HE OR SHE SHALL CONVENE NATIONAL ELECTIONS.

SO, THERE IS NO OTHER FORMULA FOR PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP EXCEPT VIA THE BALLOT BOX.

AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ELECTING IT.

AND MANY -- MUCH OF THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN INSTITUTIONS REFORM IS REALLY, SOME OF IT IS GENUINE, BUT SOME OF IT IS A DIVERSION, BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THIS.

FOR MANY YEARS, WE WOULD HAVE THE DISCUSSION ABOUT DOES OUR HEART REMEMBER?

AND FOR MANY YEARS.

WHEN WE FAIL TO UPROOT THE ROOT CAUSE, WE GO TO THE PALESTINIAN SITUATION AND WE START THINKING, SHOULD WE REFORM THIS, SHOULD WE -- OUR ISSUE IS NOT TECHNICAL.

IT'S POLITICAL.

ISRAEL HAS GOT TO GO.

IF NOT NOW, THEN I DON'T THINK -- >> YOU MEAN THE OCCUPATION.

>> YES.

THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION HAS GOT TO BE ENDED.

THIS IS THE TIME TO UNIFY THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND LET THE PALESTINIANS LEAD THEIR OWN FUTURE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW, IF IT WEREN'T TRUMP, IN ANY OTHER SITUATION, A MASS PARDON OF JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONISTS, TRIED, CONVICTED, AND SENTENCED WOULD BE UNTHINKABLE.

SOME OF THEM FOR SEVERE ACTS OF VIOLENCE, AMONG THEM, TRUMP PARDONED THE FOUNDER OF SILK ROAD, THE DARK WEB CRIMINAL MARKETPLACE.

HE WAS SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE.

ALL OF THIS LEADS TO FORMER GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL PAUL ROSENZWEIG CALLING IT, QUOTE, ONE OF THE MOST SHAMEFUL ACTS OF A U.S. PRESIDENT.

AND HE EXPLAINS TO MICHEL MARTIN WHY TRUMP'S ACTIONS, THESE PARDONS, ARE VASTLY DIFFERENT TO BIDEN'S 11th HOUR PREEMPTIVE ONES.

HERE'S THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PAUL, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, WHEN WE LAST SPOKE, YOU MADE A STRONG CASE FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO USE HIS PARDON POWER LIBERALLY, TO PARDON INDIVIDUALS WHO HAD BEEN THREATENED BY NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP OR WHO HAD BEEN HEAVILY CRITICIZED BY NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IN THE VERY CLOSING MINUTES OF HIS PRESIDENCY, HE PARDONED FIGURES LIKE GENERAL MILLEY, DR. FAUCI, MEMBERS OF THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, THE STAFF.

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION?

>> WELL, ONE PART OF IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF SURPRISE THAT ANYTHING I EVER SAY HAS -- ON CNN ACTUALLY CATCHES ANYBODY'S ATTENTION.

BUT I THINK THE MORE DOMINANT REACTION, HONESTLY, IS ONE OF SADNESS.

SADNESS THAT IT HAS COME TO THIS, THAT -- THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS AN APPROPRIATE RECOMMENDATION TO MAKE, AND THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN THOUGHT IT WAS AN APPROPRIATE IDEA TO IMPLEMENT.

THAT REFLECTS A GRAVE AND SUBSTANTIAL DEGREERY DEGRADATION IN OUR EXPECTATIONS OF PRESIDENTIAL CONDUCT.

NOT BY PRESIDENT BIDEN, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OUR ANTICIPATIONS OF WHAT HE MIGHT DO.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT -- THAT LEAVES ME VERY DISMAYED AT WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU WERE A COFOUNDER OF THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY.

YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE CONSER CONSERVATIVE, AND YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE DEEPLY CONSERVATIVE WHEN IT COMES TO MATTERS OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

SO, HAVING SAID THAT, WHY DID YOU THINK THAT THIS WAS A NECESSARY STEP?

>> WELL, THE CONSTITUTION, OBVIOUSLY, PERMITS A PRESIDENT TO EXERCISE A PARDON POWER IN THIS WAY.

FOR 250 OR 240-ODD YEARS, THAT HAS BEEN UNNECESSARY, BECAUSE WE HAVE ASSUMED, CORRECTLY, THAT PRESIDENTS ACT WITH RESTRAINT, WITH HUMILITY, WITH A GOOD APPRECIATION FOR PAST PRACTICE, FOR HISTORY, FOR PROPRIETY.

I BECAME CONVINCED OF THE NECESSITY OF THIS STEP, OF PARDONING TRUMP'S OPPONENTS, BY THE REALITY OF WHAT TRUMP HAS SAID AND HAS DONE IN THE FIRST 48 HOURS OF HIS PRESIDENCY.

WHICH IS TRANSAGGRESSIVE OF NORMS.

I MEAN, IN A LOT OF WAYS, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW IS ABOUT RESTRAINT.

WE GIVE HUGE AMOUNTS OF POWER TO PRESIDENTS AND TO CONGRESSES AND TO COURTS, BUT WE TELL THEM NOT TO MISUSE THAT.

AND WE -- WE SUCCEED, RIGHT?

WHETHER YOU LIKE THEM OR DISLIKE THEM, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT RONALD REAGAN OR JIMMY CARTER OR GEORGE BUSH OR BARACK OBAMA WOULD HAVE EVER THOUGHT NECESSARY, BECAUSE IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT ANY OF THEM WOULD HAVE EVER THOUGHT THAT THEIR SUCCESSOR WOULD MAKE APPROPRIATE.

NONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE CONTEMPLATED DONALD TRUMP AS -- AS A SUCCESSOR, AND SO, WE COME TO THIS PASS BECAUSE OF THE TRULY ABERRATIONAL NATURE OF WHAT TRUMP HAS SAID HE WANTS TO DO WITH POWER.

>> YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED THESE POTENTIAL PARDONS AS BOTH PROTECTIVE AND SYMBOLIC.

DO YOU THINK THAT THEY SERVED THOSE DUAL PURPOSES?

>> CERTAINLY THE ONES THAT WERE ISSUED TO PUBLIC FIGURES WHO WERE AT RISK BECAUSE OF THEIR OPPOSITION TO DONALD TRUMP SERVED BOTH THOSE PURPOSES.

PEOPLE LIKE GENERAL MARK MILLEY, AND REPRESENTATIVE CHENEY, REPRESENTATIVE BENNIE THOMPSON.

ALSO TO THOSE WHO WERE IN TRUMP'S CROSS HAIRS NOT BECAUSE THEY OPPOSED TRUMP, BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY DISAGREED WITH HIM, LIKE DR. FAUCI, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO HAS BECOME A -- FOR THE FAR RIGHT BLOGOSPHERE.

THE PARDONS OF HIS FAMILY, THOUGH COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE IN LIGHT OF DONALD TRUMP'S PENCHANT FOR REVENGE, HOLD LESS SYMBOLIC NATURE, RIGHT?

THESE WERE NOT PUBLIC FIGURES, UNTIL I READ THEIR NAMES IN THE PARDON PAPERS.

>> HERE'S THE THING, THOUGH.

YOU KNOW, HIS PARDONS DIDN'T INCLUDE PEOPLE WHO TESTIFIED BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.

FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDES WHO HAVE SOME VERY COMPELLING AND IT HAS TO BE SAID, DAMNING TESTIMONY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT NOW CURRENT PRESIDENT'S CONDUCT AROUND JANUARY 6th.

AND I WONDER -- I REALIZE THAT YOU'RE NOT PRIVY TO ANY INSIDE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS, BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

I MEAN, WAS THAT AN OVERSIGHT?

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS AN OVERSIGHT, BECAUSE THAT SUGGESTS IT WAS BY ACCIDENT.

I MEAN, IT -- THE NATURE OF THE LIST SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN CLEARLY DRAWN AROUND A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT THE PRESIDENT PERCEIVED TO BE HIGH PROFILE OPPONENTS AT REAL RISK.

HE INCLUDED, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CAPITOL HILL OFFICERS WHO TESTIFIED AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, SO -- IT WAS CLEARLY A CONSIDERED JUDGMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, AS YOU SAID, I'M NOT PRIVY TO WHAT THE FACTORS AT PLAY WERE.

I HAVE TO THINK IT WAS PARTIALLY AN ASSESSMENT OF REAL RISK, AND LIMITATIONS ON RESOURCES.

IT STRIKES ME, FOR EXAMPLE, AS QUITE UNLIKELY THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE FBI WILL BE ABLE TO BRING HUNDREDS OF THESE PROSECUTIONS AGAINST POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

FOR MYSELF, I MIGHT HAVE GONE A BIT BROADER, BUT I REALLY CAN'T, YOU KNOW, SAY WHAT HE CHOSE TO DO.

>> IN YOUR PIECE, YOUR PREVIOUS PIECE, YOU CRITICIZED TRUMP'S CRITICS, PARTICULARLY DEMOCRATS, FOR TREATING HIM AS AN ABERRATION, RATHER THAN AS A PHENOMENON.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE SEEN THAT TENSION IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.

YOU KNOW, IN THE -- IN THE WANING DAYS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN BECAME VERY VOCAL ABOUT WHAT HE SAW AS THE RISKS OF A TRUMP RETURN TO OFFICE.

EVEN AFTER TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION.

HE TALKED ABOUT WHAT HE CALLED, YOU KNOW, HIS DEEP CONCERN ABOUT A CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER, AND PEOPLE OF EXTREME WEALTH HAVING ACCESS TO THE WHITE HOUSE IN WAYS THAT HE CONSIDERED DANGEROUS, THIS CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER, AS HE SAID.

HE WENT SO FAR AS TO CALL IT AN OLIGARCHY.

AND I WONDER -- HOW DO YOU SEE THE PARDON POWER IN THIS LIGHT?

DO YOU SEE IT AS THE FORMER PRESIDENT COMING TO GRIPS WITH THIS TENSION ALL ALONG?

I ALSO HAVE TO NOTE THAT, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN WELCOMING HIS SUCCESSOR TO THE WHITE HOUSE SAID, WELCOME HOME, GREETED HIM VERY WARMLY, OBSERVED ALL THE TRADITIONAL NICETIES.

THAT HAS TO BE SAID, MR. TRUMP DENIED HIM WHEN HE RETURNED TO OFFICE.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

IT -- IT'S AN AMAZINGLY DIFFICULT QUESTION, ISN'T IT?

YOU KNOW, I WOULD CHARACTERIZE THE LAST FEW MONTHS AS PRESIDENT BIDEN SORT OF TRYING TO PLAY CATCHUP.

AS WE DISCUSSED IN THE LAST TIME I WAS ON, THE DEMOCRATS DIDN'T TREATMENT TREAT TRUMP AS A PHENOMENON FOR THE TIME THAT THEY HELD POWER, THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PRESIDENCY.

THEY MADE NO EFFORTS TO REALLY STRENGTHEN ELECTORAL -- ELECTORAL PROCESSES, THEY THOUGHT OF HIM AS AN ABERRATIONING AND THEY THOUGHT THAT DOING POLITICS AS NORMAL, YOU KNOW, WITH THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE ACT, ALL THOSE THINGS THAT ARE KIND OF TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC PRIORITIES, WOULD BRING PEOPLE HOME AND BRING PEOPLE BACK TO REALITY.

THE PARDONS, IN THEIR OWN SMALL WAY, ARE A REFLECTION OF THE REALIZATION THAT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

THE TREATING PRESIDENT TRUMP AS WELCOME AND WELCOMING HIM HOME THAT REALITY HASN'T BEEN FULLY GRASPED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN OR BY ANYONE YET.

AND WE'RE ONLY NOW STARTING TO SEE WHAT THAT WILL MEAN, AND WE WILL BE, YOU KNOW, WATCHING THIS STORY GO FORWARD FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, AT LEAST.

I MEAN -- TO CITE JUST THE MOST OBVIOUS EXAMPLE, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PARDONS OF GENERAL MILLEY AND LIZ CHENEY ARE UNUSUAL, OUT OF CHARACTER, AND NOT WITHIN THE NORMS, BUT THEY'RE FAR LESS DESTRUCTIVE OF NORMS THAN WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID YESTERDAY IN PARDONING EVERY ONE OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONISTS, INCLUDING THOSE WHO PHYSICALLY ATTACKED AND BEAT UP CAPITOL HILL POLICE OFFICERS.

>> HE PARDONED MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN CONVICTED OF FELONIES.

AND, YOU KNOW, INCLUDING ENRIQUE TARRIO, THE FORMER HEAD OF THE PROUD BOYS.

STEWART RHODES, THE HEAD OF THE OATH KEEPERS.

SO, SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND SAY, WELL, OKAY, IT'S -- TELL ME WHY YOU SAY IT'S DIFFERENT.

>> IT'S NOT.

ANYBODY WHO SAYS IT'S ALL OF A PIECE SIMPLY LACKS THE FACULTY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT ARE NOT ALIKE.

THE ONLY SIMILARITY THEY HAVE IS THEY INVOLVE PARDONS.

THE TARRIO AND RHODES PARDONS, THEY WERE PLANNERS OF THE VIOLENT OVERTHROW OF CONGRESS.

THEY ARE, IN MY RESPECTFUL OPINION, OR DISRESPECTFUL OPINION, THE MOST SHAMEFUL ACTS OF PARDON THAT ANY PRESIDENT HAS EVER DONE.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN KIND, NOT IN -- NOT IN DEGREE, BUT IN KIND, FROM PREVENTING DONALD TRUMP FROM FURTHER TRANSGRASSING NORMS, BY PROSECUTING ANTHONY FAUCI FOR -- FOR WHAT?

FOR TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT COVID WHEN HE DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT?

BY PROSECUTING GENERAL MARK MILLEY, FOR WHAT?

FOR NOT LETTING HIM USE THE MILITARY TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT.

THESE ARE NOT ALIKE IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN FORM.

AND, YOU KNOW, I -- I HEAR YOU, THAT IT OFFERS A TALKING POINT, IF YOU WILL.

TO THOSE WHO WANT TO DEFEND DONALD TRUMP, BUT IT IS A TALKING POINT THAT CAN ONLY BE USED BY THOSE WHO WERE ALREADY CONVINCED OF -- OF TRUMP'S INABILITY TO DO ANY WRONG.

THERE'S A TALKING POINT THAT CAN ONLY BE USED BILL THOSE WHO HAVE CHECKED THEIR ABILITY TO DISTINGUISH GOOD -- RIGHT FROM WRONG AT THE DOOR.

I'M SORRY, I'M A LITTLE ANGRY ABOUT THIS ONE.

>> I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT WHY YOU THINK IT IS THAT MORE PEOPLE DON'T SEE THIS DISTINCTION?

I THINK MOST PEOPLE, IF A CRIME HAD BEEN COMMITTED AGAINST THEM, ESPECIALLY A VIOLENT CRIME, WOULD BE -- WOULD TAKE ISSUE WITH SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN DUALLY CONVICTED OF THAT CRIME IN A COURT OF LAW, UNDER THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES, BEING PARDONED SUMMARILY BECAUSE SOMEBODY DIDN'T AGREE WITH IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT HASN'T EVOKED A REACTION?

>> IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY.

FIRST OFF, OBVIOUSLY, THOSE WHO ARE TRUMP TROOPERS, RIGHT, THEY LOVE THIS.

THIS ESSENTIALLY HAS LEGALIZED VIOLENCE IN SUPPORT OF DONALD TRUMP'S INSURRECTION, AND EFFORTS TO MAINTAIN POWER.

WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS, YOU KNOW, THE MIDDLE WHO -- WHO JUST SEEM TO HAVE WANTED TO MOVE ON, WHO ARE TIRED, EXHAUSTED BY TRUMP, WHO -- WHO ARE NOT CONVINCED THAT IT WILL BE AS BAD AS ALL THAT.

IF THE -- YOU KNOW, IT IS -- THERE'S AN EXCELLENCE SERIES OF ARTICLES, YOU KNOW, BY TIMOTHY SNYDER AND EARLIER BY HANNAH ARENT ABOUT HOW THE IDEA OF AUTHORITARIANS IS TO EXHAUST THE OPPOSITION.

IS TO TELL LIES NOT BECAUSE THEY WILL BE BELIEVED, BUT THAT SO PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH LIES FROM THE TRUTH.

THESE ARE THE ACT TICKS TACTICS OF ONES THAT WANT TO DESTROY THE FACULTIES OF DEMOCRATIC ANALYSIS, OF DEMOCRATIC RATIONALITY.

AND I THINK THAT THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS THAT IT'S SUCCEEDING TO SOME DEGREE.

THAT AMERICANS AREN'T AS EXCEPTIONAL AS WE THINK WE ARE, AND THAT WE ARE SUCCUMBING TO -- TO THIS.

I MEAN, THE FLOOD OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS IS DESIGNED TO OVERWHELM YOU.

YOU KNOW, EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM IS OBJECTIONABLE.

WHETHER IT'S DECLARING THAT THERE ARE ONLY TWO GENDERS, WHICH IS DECLARING THAT, LIKE, PI EQUALS 3, OR DECLARING THAT THE CONSTITUTIONAL BIRTHRIGHT IS NO LONGER CONSTITUTIONAL, AS IF AN EXECUTIVE ORDER COULD OVERTURN A CONSTITUTIONAL RULE.

ONE COULD GO ON AND ON.

THEY ARE DESIGNED TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGHT BACK.

>> SOME HIGH PROFILE REPUBLICANS, INCLUDING THE FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER MITCH McCONNELL, SENATOR LISA MURKOWSKI, TO SOME DEGREE, SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON, CRITICIZED THE MOVE TO PARDON ALL THE JANUARY 6th MOB ATTACKERS, THE INSURRECTIONISTS.

TRUMP'S OWN VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE HAD SAID PREVIOUSLY, IF YOU COMMITTED VIOLENCE ON THAT DAY, OBVIOUSLY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE PARDONED, ALTHOUGH HE DIDN'T SAY THAT AFTER IT HAD ALREADY TAKEN PLACE.

AND I WILL SAY THAT TRUMP'S NOMINEE FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL SAID THAT SHE WOULD WANT TO TAKE A CASE-BY-CASE LOOK AT THESE.

AND HE DIDN'T TAKE ANY OF THEIR ADVICE AND DID WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

BUT I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT REACTION.

DOES THAT MEAN ANYTHING?

>> PROBABLY NOT.

TALK IS CHEAP, ACTION IS WHERE IT COUNTS.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ALWAYS SMALL RUMBLINGS OF OPPOSITION TO TRUMP.

IT'S ONLY WHETHER OR NOT THEY TAKE ACTION.

SO, I'LL GIVE YOU -- I'LL GIVE YOU THE TEST CASE.

RIGHT?

THE FLIP SIDE OF PARDONS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ON YOUR SIDE IS WEAPONIZING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

KASH PATEL, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NOMINEE TO BE FBI DIRECTOR, HAS PUBLISHED A BOOK IN WHICH, AS AN APPENDIX, HE LISTED PEOPLE WHO HE CONSIDERED ENEMIES OF TRUMP, WHO HE SHOULD BE INVESTIGATING AND THE FBI SHOULD BE PROSECUTING.

INCLUDING MILLEY, FAUCI, CHENEY, SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO GOT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PREEMPTIVE PARDONS.

IF MITCH McCONNELL AND LISA MURKOWSKI ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR DISMAY WITH THE MISUSE OF EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY, THEN THEY SHOULD BE SERIOUS ABOUT NOT CONFIRMING AS FBI DIRECTOR SOMEBODY WHO HAS ALREADY ANNOUNCED HIS INTENTION TO MISUSE THE FBI ON BEHALF OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> AND GOING FORWARD, WHAT WOULD YOUR MESSAGE BE TO PERSONS LIKE YOURSELF AND OTHERS WHO FEAR THAT OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS REALLY ARE UNDER THREAT?

BECAUSE OF NOT JUST WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID HE MAY DO, BUT WHAT HE HAS ALREADY DONE, IN PARDONING PEOPLE WHO STAGED THIS ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL IN AN EFFORT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO REMAIN DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE MESSAGE THIS SENDS?

>> WELL, BESIDES, NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER, ONE OF MY OTHER KIND OF FAVORITE QUOTES IS FROM GEORGE PATTON.

HE SAID, DO NOT TAKE COUNSEL FROM YOUR FEAR.

YOU HAVE TO MOVE AHEAD.

AND THAT MEANS CONTINUING TO RESIST.

NOT TO BE NIL LISTIC ABOUT IT, NOT TO GIVE UP AND SAY, OH, IT'S ALL OVER, YOU CAN'T FIGHT, WHICH A NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE.

BUT TO FIND YOUR BATTLES, WHETHER THEY'RE LARGE OR SMALL, AND WIN THEM WHERE YOU CAN.

WHETHER THAT'S JOINING A LOCAL COMMUNITY GROUP THAT -- THAT PROTECTS GAY AND LESBIAN TRANSD GENDERED PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY, OR IF YOU'RE A LAWYER LIKE ME, ARTICULATING VIEWS ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW, THERE'S SOMETHING THAT EVERY HUMAN BEING CAN DO.

AND I'M NO LEADER, YOU KNOW, I -- I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CAPACITY TO ACTUALLY MOTIVATE PEOPLE TO DO THAT, BUT PERHAPS SOMEBODY WILL.

>> PAUL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I WISH ALL OF US THE VERY BEST OF LUCK GOING FORWARD.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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