January 27, 2025

>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

>>> HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> ON HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL DAY, WE HEAR STORIES OF RESISTANCE, FIRST FROM DOUBLE SURVIVOR, WHO SURVIVED BOTH THE HOLOCAUST AND THE OCTOBER 7th COME OFF THE ATTACK.

THEN, FROM OUR ARCHIVE, GLOBAL LAUREATE AND THE FIGHT TO PREVENT FUTURE ATROCITIES.

>>> PLUS, MY CONVERSATION WITH JOURNALIST ZARA ZARIA.

DOCUMENTING STRUGGLE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN AFGHANISTAN.

>>> AND HARI SREENIVASAN SIX WITH NEW YORKER ABOUT WEEK ONE OF DONALD TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT,JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE, ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> A WARM HELLO INTO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

>>> 80 YEARS AGO TODAY, SOVIET TROOPS LIBERATED AUSCHWITZ, THE LARGEST OF THE NAZI DEATH CAMPS.

IT MARKED THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE HOLOCAUST .

THE MURDER OF 6 MILLION JEWS ALONGSIDE THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, ROMA, AND OF COURSE OTHER TARGETED GROUPS.

IN 2007, CHRISTIANE VISITED AUSCHWITZ FOR A DOCUMENTARY ON GENOCIDE CALLED , "SCREEN BLOODY MURDER. "

HERE'S A REMINDER OF THE HORRORS THAT HAPPENED THERE AND THE TIRELESS WORK OF ONE MAN, RAFFAELLA LIPTON, TO HAVE GENOCIDE RECOGNIZED AS A CRIME, EVEN AS THE HOLOCAUST UNFOLDED BEFORE HIM.

>> Reporter: WHEN HITLER INVADED POLAND IN 1949, LEMKIN KNEW HIS WORST FEARS WERE ABOUT TO COME TRUE.

LEMKIN FLED, LEAVING HIS COUNTRY, AND HIS FAMILY BEHIND .

>> Translator: I FELT I WOULD NEVER SEE THEM AGAIN.

IT WAS LIKE GOING TO THEIR FUNERALS WHILE THEY WERE STILL ALIVE.

>> Reporter: LEMKIN BECAME ONE OF THE LUCKY FEW TO REACH AMERICA AFTER A FRIEND HELPED HIM FIND A JOB AT DUKE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL , BUT HE REMAINED AFRAID FOR HIS FAMILY, AND HIS COUNTRYMEN.

>> Translator: I HAD NOT STOPPED WORRYING ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN POLAND, WHEN WITH THE HOUR OF EXECUTION COME?

WOULD THIS LINE WORLD ONLY SEE IT WHEN IT WOULD BE TOO LATE?

>> Reporter: SOON, THE LETTERS FROM HOME STOPPED COMING.

THE NAZIS HAD CAPTURED HIS PARENTS' VILLAGE .

IT WAS A DEATH SENTENCE FOR 40 MEMBERS OF LEMKIN'S FAMILY.

BY 1942, AMERICA HAD ENTERED THE WAR.

THE GERMANS HAD ACCELERATED THEIR DEADLY WORK.

CONCENTRATION CAMPS RAN DAY AND NIGHT, LIKE ASSEMBLY LINES.

HERE AT AUSCHWITZ, MORE THAN 1 MILLION PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

JEWS ARRIVED PACKED IN TRAINS.

THE NAZIS SORTED THEM ON THE PLATFORM.

SENT THE DOME TO THE GAS CHAMBERS, STRICT STRIPPED, SHAVED, AND TATTOOED THE REST.

ELLIE TISDALE WAS NUMBER A7713.

>> Translator: I WAS YOUNG, FRIGHTENED.

>> Reporter: THE NAZIS KILLED HIS MOTHER AND HIS YOUNGER SISTER.

>> THE QUESTION OF HER KILLERS HAS ASSESSED ME FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

HOW COULD THEY?

KILL CHILDREN?

I DON'T KNOW, HOW COULD THEY?

>> Reporter: AS VISELLE SUFFERED IN THE CAMPS, WORD OF THE SLAUGHTER REACHED AMERICA, BUT SEEMED OF LITTLE INTEREST TO THE PRESS AND POLITICIANS.

RAPHAEL LEMKIN WAS OUTRAGED.

>> Translator: THE IMPRESSION OF A TREMENDOUS CONSPIRACY POISONED THE AIR, A DOUBLE MURDER WAS TAKING PLACE, IT WAS THE MURDER OF THE TRUTH.

>> 80 YEARS LATER, ON THIS HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL DAY, THE NUMBER OF SURVIVORS AMONGST US DWINDLES.

THE FAR RIGHT IS ON THE RISE IN EUROPE EVEN IN GERMANY ITSELF, WHERE THE AFD RALLY HELD THIS WEEKEND WITH A VIDEO ADDRESS FROM BILLIONAIRE ELON MUSK.

AS A WAVE OF ATTACKS ON JEWS AND JEWISH SITES SWEEPS ACROSS THE WORLD.

ANTI-SEMITISM SPIKED AFTER THE TRAUMATIC ATTACK IN HAMAS JANUARY 7th, 2023, AND THE WAR THAT FOLLOWED.

THIS WEEKEND, ISRAELIS WELCOMED HOME FOR NO MORE HOSTAGES ME DOZENS THOUGH, STILL REMAIN IN GAZA, MUCH OF WHICH IS NOW REDUCED TO RUBBLE.

SOME OF THOSE WHO SURVIVED THAT DAY IN 2023 WERE THEMSELVES SURVIVORS OF THE HOLOCAUST, INCLUDING OUR FIRST GUEST, WHO FLED POLAND, ITALY, AND GREECE AS THE NAZIS ADVANCED ACROSS EUROPE.

ON OCTOBER 7th, SO LOW-SALT NEIGHBORS TAKEN HOSTAGE AS HE HELD THE DOOR SHUT TO HIS SAFE ROOM.

HE SPOKE WITH ME FROM SOUTHERN ISRAEL.

IT IS A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM, WELCOME.

>> YOU ARE WELCOME TOO.

>> YOU WERE A SMALL CHILD IN POLAND DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AND YOUR FAMILY MANAGED TO ESCAPE IN 1940, YOU WERE JUST 6 YEARS OLD, A LITTLE BOY.

CAN YOU TELL US YOUR STORY?

HOW COULD YOU MANAGE TO SURVIVE?

>> BY LUCK.

MY FATHER, BEFORE THE WAR WAS A PROMINENT LAWYER IN WARSAW, AND HE HAD CONNECTIONS.

WHEN WARSAW WAS OCCUPIED BY THE NAZIS, WE GOT, BY HIS CONNECTIONS, PERMISSION, OFFICIAL PERMISSION TO GO TO ITALY, WHICH THEN WAS PRO NAZI, BUT FOR SOME REASON WAS NEUTRAL .

SO WE SIMPLY GOT ON THE TRAIN, THE NAZIS LED US OUT .

WE LIVED IN PREVIOUS FOR SOME MONTHS, AND THEN MUSSOLINI JOINED THE WAR ON THE WRONG SIDE , AND WE HAD TO ESCAPE.

THEN, WE BECAME REFUGEES, AND WE ESCAPED TO GREECE.

GREECE WAS NEUTRAL, IT WAS PROTECTED BY THE BRITISH.

WE STAYED IN ATHENS FOR ALMOST A YEAR.

WHEN GREECE WAS ABOUT TO BE OCCUPIED BY THE NAZI ARMY, WE, AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO COULD, ESCAPED EAST.

WE GOT TO WHAT THEN WOULD BECOME PALESTINE.

>> WHAT PERSONAL LESSONS SHOULD WE ALL TAKE FROM YOUR STORY OF SURVIVAL?

>> FOR ONE THING, NOT TO BE IN A POSITION OF A SMALL, HELPLESS MINORITY WITH FASCISTS.

LOOK, I WAS A LITTLE KID.

MOST OF MY MORE EXPERIENCED WAS RUNNING AWAY, ARRIVING IN SOME OTHER PLACE, AND TRYING TO ADJUST, AND THEN MOVING AGAIN.

THAT IS WHAT COMES TO MIND.

I REMEMBER.

>> A RECENT SURVEY BY THE ANTIDEFAMATION LEAGUE FOUND THAT HALF OF ADULTS, LET'S THINK ABOUT THAT, HALF OF ADULTS AROUND THE WORLD STILL HOLD ANTI-SEMITIC BELIEFS.

AND ACTUALLY, EVEN DENIED THE HISTORICAL FACT MAX OF THE HOLOCAUST.

ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH AGENCY, 2024 THOUGHT A DOUBLING, 100% INCREASE IN ANTI- SEMITIC ATTACKS RIGHT AROUND THE WORLD, COMPARED TO 2023.

WE ARE SEEING VANDALISM, SERIOUS ATTACKS ON SYNAGOGUES.

DID YOU EVER BELIEVE WE COULD COME TO THIS POINT AGAIN IN HISTORY?

>> LOOK AT ME I DID CONSIDER IT VERY SERIOUSLY, BUT I'M NOT TERRIBLY SURPRISED.

BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW, EVEN EVENTS THAT HAPPENED, LONG BEFORE THE NAZIS CAME TO GERMANY, ALL OVER EUROPE.

SOME GOT BACK TO NORMAL AFTER THE NAZIS , THEY GOT BACK TO NORMAL ON THIS ISSUE TOO, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN, BACK TO NORMAL?

>> BACK TO THE SITUATION WE WERE IN BEFORE THE NAZIS CAME TO PERIL .

IT DID NOT ALL START FROM NOTHING.

>> YOU BELIEVE THE ROOTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM WERE ALLOWED TO THRIVE, AND ARE TO THIS DATE?

>> YES, DEFINITELY.

TO WHAT EXTENT, I NEVER BELIEVED-- >> IN FACT, RONALD LOWDER OF THE WORLD JEWISH CONGRESS SAID, WE THOUGHT THE VIRUS OF ANTI- SEMITISM WAS DEAD, BUT IT WAS JUST IN HIDING, HE SAYS, YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT?

>> YES.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH, EVEN JUST IN THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF, OCTOBER 7th, HAMAS KILLED 1200 ISRAELI CIVILIANS AND SOLDIERS.

THERE WERE SO MANY ELDERLY HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AMONG THEM WHO WERE TERRORIZED THAT DAY.

YOU YOURSELF, YOU HAD TO BARRICADE YOURSELF IN YOUR SAFE ROOM AS IT CAME UNDER ATTACK.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU ON THAT DAY, AND THAT IT BRING YOU BACK TO ALL YOU SUFFERED DURING YOUR CHILDHOOD?

>> IT DIDN'T, BECAUSE I WAS TOO BUSY, I WAS NOT REMINISCING.

WHAT HAPPENS, MORE OR LESS WHAT YOU SAID, WE WERE ATTACKED PHYSICALLY.

THE AREA WHERE I LIVE WAS ATTACKED, AND WE BARRICADED OURSELVES IN MY SAFE ROOM.

WE WAITED FOR THE ARMY TO GET US OUT, UNTIL THEY ARRIVED.

>> WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND AS THAT WAS HAPPENING?

>> THEY SHOULD ARRIVE BEFORE THE TERRORISTS.

WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY?

>> ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, ABOUT 123,000 HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS ARE STILL IN ISRAEL, WITH OVER 14,000 PASSING AWAY IN THE LAST YEAR ALONE, I DON'T HAVE TO REMIND YOU, THE AVERAGE AGE OF SURVIVORS IS 87.

SINCE THE WAR BEGAN THOUGH, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT HAS HELPED 282 SURVIVORS RETURN TO THEIR HOMES, 235 FROM THE SOUTH, 47 FROM THE NORTHERN COMMUNITIES.

IT BEARS REPEATING, YOU WERE UPROOTED BY WAR, HAVING TO LEAVE THE COUPLETS YOU LIVED IN FOR DECADES.

AGAIN NOW, YOU ARE DISPLACED.

HOW DIFFICULT HAS THIS BEEN FOR YOU?

>> DIFFICULT, TERRIBLY DIFFICULT, BECAUSE WE ARE ORGANIZED, BUT LITERALLY DIFFICULT.

IN MY HOME, I ASKED SOMEBODY LAST WEEK TO HAVE A LOOK AT MY PLACE.

MY PLACE IS STILL ALL RIGHT.

SOME OF THE HOMES, AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL LAST.

HAVE NO IDEA WHEN I WILL BE ABLE TO COME BACK.

>> Reporter: YOU SURVIVED THE WORST OF TWO ATROCITIES.

HOW HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR AFFECTED THE WAY YOU FEEL ABOUT THE AFTERMATH OF OCTOBER 7th?

>> NOT MUCH, NOT SORT OF DIFFERENT THAN I DID BEFORE.

WE ALWAYS FELT THAT WE WERE ON THE EDGE, WE CAN SAY PEACE, BUT NOT WAR, AND IT CAN EXPLODE NOT ANYTIME, BUT IT CAN EXPLODE THIS YEAR, NEXT YEAR, AND IT DID.

WASN'T SURPRISED.

>> YOU SEEM VERY CLEAR IDEA ABOUT WHAT THE PAST HELD AND WHAT THE FUTURE WILL HOLD.

>> NO, WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS WILL DEPEND ON US TOO, WHAT WE DO AND WHAT WE DON'T DO.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO YOUNG PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, PERHAPS IT IS DIFFICULT TO PRESS AGAINST THEM AND REALLY IMPLORE THEM TO LOOK AT THE HOLOCAUST, AND THE ABSOLUTE MASSACRE AND GENOCIDE THAT OCCURRED?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO YOUNG PEOPLE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE HOLOCAUST CAN HAPPEN AGAIN?

>> I WOULD SAY, THEY SHOULD LEARN WHAT HAPPENED.

IF THEY DO , THEY WILL COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION AS SOMETHING LIKE THAT, NOT NECESSARILY, EXACTLY THE SAME CAN HAPPEN AGAIN, BUT BE REALLY CAREFUL IT DOES NOT.

>> WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TODAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> YOU ARE WELCOME.

>>> NOW, CHRISTIANE HAS HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF SPEAKING WITH MANY HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS OVER THE YEARS, SOME RECOGNIZING ALL WITH A REALLY CRUCIAL STORY TO TELL.

SOME OF THEM, ONE SUCH WITNESS, A RESISTANCE BY WHO SURVIVED INTERNMENT AT REGENSBURG, THE LARGEST CONCENTRATION CAMP FOR WOMEN.

98 YEARS OLD, SHE SPOKE WITH CHRISTIANE ABOUT HER MEMOIR OF COURAGE AND STRENGTH CALLED "MY NAME IS SELMA."

>> I'M GOING TO GET TO THE PRISON IN A MOMENT, FIRST, I'D LIKE YOU TO READ ON PAGE 76 IN YOUR BOOK, THE PASSAGE ABOUT FEAR, ABOUT HOW FEAR WAS EVERYWHERE, BUT YOU HAVE TO PUT IT IN THE BACK OF YOUR MIND.

>> YOU FORGET ABOUT FEAR, BECAUSE I WAS BUSY AS WELL.

VERY BUSY.

YOU ARE ABLE TO PUSH THE THINGS THE WAY YOU DON'T NEED.

YOU CAN'T LIVE IN CONSTANT FEAR .

EVEN FEAR IS SOMETHING TO WHICH YOU BECOME ACCUSTOMED, QUITE TRUE.

AND THE JOB, THE RESISTANCE JOB , BECOMES LIKE ANY OTHER JOB.

EVERY DAY, I DID THINGS THAT PUT MY LIFE AT RISK.

I DIDN'T ALLOW THE FEAR TO OVERWHELM ME.

THE DESIRE TO SWAT THE NAZIS AND HELP PEOPLE IN A WAS STRONGER.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE IN REGENSBURG?

>> I HAD SOME HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES THERE TOO ME BUT I SURVIVED.

I DID NOT WANT THE GERMANS TO HAVE THE SATISFACTION OF KILLING ME, OF HAVING ME DEAD.

I DID EVERYTHING TO STAY ALIVE.

I WAS QUITE LUCKY IN A WAY THAT I BECAME THE SECRETARY OF ONE OF THE CHIEFS IN THE CEMENT FACTORY.

I HAD TO WORK IN THE CEMENT FACTORY.

YEP, WHICH IS NOW FAMOUS FOR ALL THE KITCHEN STUFF.

>> YOU SAID THAT TWO SURVIVED.

YOU HAD TO MAINTAIN HOPE.

>> YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR BEST TO SURVIVE ME WHICH WAS DIFFICULT AT TIMES.

I WAS BEATEN ONCE UNCONSCIOUS AND I COULD NOT GET OFF THE LITTLE LOO BECAUSE MY TUMMY WAS ALWAYS UPSET, YOU SEE, AND BECAUSE THE FOOD AND THE DRINK WE GOT WERE HARDLY ANYTHING.

>> WHEN YOU CAME OUT, YOU REALIZED EVENTUALLY THAT YOUR MOTHER HAD NOT SURVIVED, YOUR FATHER HAD NOT, NOR DID YOUR YOUNGER SISTER.

TWO OLDER BROTHERS HAD, AND THEY HAD COME HERE TO ENGLAND.

HOW DID YOU RECONCILE-- HOW DID YOU PROCESS THEIR LOSS?

>> WELL, I HAVEN'T RECONCILED THAT AT ALL.

I THINK OF THEM EVERY DAY, EVERY NIGHT SMALL THINGS HAPPEN TO ME AND WHEN I SLICED MY BREAD IN THE MORNING FOR BREAKFAST, AND I HALF MY SLICE OF BREAD, I THINK OF MY MOTHER WHEN SHE BUTTERED OUR BREAD.

I CAN'T HELP IT.

IT COMES INTO MY MIND.

I TRY NOT TO, BECAUSE I SAY TO MYSELF, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE, YOU CAN'T MAKE IT UNDONE, BUT I CAN'T HELP IT.

I THINK OF THEM EVERY DAY IN THAT WAY.

>> STILL THINKS OF THEM EVERY DAY.

>>> NOW, NOR NOBEL PRIZE WINNER ELIE WIESEL, WHO WE HEARD EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM, SURVIVED BOTH THE ARGO WHICH AND RUTENBERG CAMPS.

HE IS SEEN HERE WITH OTHER SLAVE LABORERS AFTER LIBERATION.

ELIE WIESEL DEDICATED THE REST OF HIS LIFE TO KEEPING THE MEMORY OF GENOCIDE ALIVE.

10 YEARS AGO TODAY, ON THE 70th ANNIVERSARY OF THE OPERATION, CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH HIM ABOUT HIS ABILITY TO MAKE SENSE OF THE TRAGIC, EVEN SEVEN DECADES LATER.

>> AUSCHWITZ, REALLY REMEMBER IT IN HISTORY AS A PLACE WHERE YOU WERE BEING SENT OFF TO OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, THINGS THAT NEVER SHOULD BE DONE IN HISTORY .

AND OF COURSE, MEMORIES, ESPECIALLY NOW IN JANUARY, ON AUSCHWITZ ITSELF, BUT THE EVACUATION, THE MARCH, THE DEATH MARCH, I WAS THERE WITH MY FATHER THE LAST FEW WEEKS OF HIS LIFE TOGETHER, THEY ARE MARCHING IN THE FIRST WEEK.

BUT AUSCHWITZ IS A SIMPLE OF THE 20th CENTURY.

WITH ALL THE GREAT VICTORIES THAT HUMANITY HAS RECORDED, AND THE SCIENCES, LITERATURE, PHILOSOPHY.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS ALSO AUSCHWITZ, A 20th CENTURY PHENOMENON .

A 20th CENTURY TRAGEDY, 20th CENTURY CRIME.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, IN EUROPE, CIVILIZED EUROPE OF ALL PLACES IN GERMANY, THIS USED TO BE THE MOST CULTURED, THE MOST ELEGANT NATURE IN THE WORLD, WITH A PHILOSOPHY FOR SO MANY CENTURIES, THERE WE HAD HITLER, HIS ACCOLADES, AND HIS SPOKESMAN CREATING MURDER, MASS MURDER.

YET?

>> CAN I ASK YOU, AS YOU REMEMBER, CAN I ASK YOU, WHAT YOU REMEMBER ABOUT BEING SENT TO THE CAMP, AND WHAT YOU REMEMBER ABOUT BEING THERE?

STATEMENT BEING SENT TO ME WE DID NOT KNOW THAT.

I LIVED IN HUNGRY.

THAT USED TO BE ROMANIA BEFORE, ON GARY, WE DID NOT KNOW OF AUSCHWITZ, BUT WE CAME TO AUSCHWITZ, DESPITE TO THIS DAY A SOURCE OF SHOCK AND ASTONISHMENT.

IT BECAME THAT IN 1944.

IN 1944, WE IN HUNGARY DID NOT KNOW THAT AUSTIN WAS EXISTED.

HAD WE KNOWN, WE WOULD HAVE TURNED TO HUNGARIAN JEWS SAYING, DON'T GO TO THE PLANE, BECAUSE THE PLANE WILL LEAD YOU TO AUSCHWITZ.

PEOPLE, MANY OF US WOULD NOT HAVE GONE .

MANY WOULDN'T HAVE BELIEVED, PERHAPS, BUT WE WOULDN'T HAVE GONE.

NOBODY WARNED US.

NOBODY CAME TO HELP.

IT HAPPENED LATE IN THE WAR.

GERMANY HAD ALREADY LOST THE WAR IN 1944, SPRING 1944!

AND YET, THEY STILL HAD ENOUGH RESOURCES, AND OF COURSE, THE WILL, THE DESIRE, THE DETERMINATION TO KILL THE JEWISH PEOPLE.

TO THIS DAY, I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

IT WASN'T ANY SELF INTEREST, NO NATIONAL INTEREST, WHY DID THEY DO THAT?

TO ME, IT REMAINS A MYSTERY.

>> WHAT GAVE YOU THE STRENGTH, WHAT WAS LIFE-AFFIRMING THAT GAVE YOU THE STRENGTH AS A 15- YEAR-OLD, WHEN YOU WERE SENT THERE, TO KEEP GOING AND TO SURVIVE?

>> AND THE BEGINNING, OF COURSE BECAUSE I WAS TOGETHER WITH MY FATHER, IN A BIG CANAL, AUSCHWITZ WITH MY FATHER IN THE BEGINNING, AND AS LONG AS HE WAS ALIVE, I WANTED TO BE ALIVE JUST TO KEEP HIM AND HELP HIM, TO SHARE A PIECE OF BREAD WITH HIM.

AFTER HE DIED, WHICH WAS ACTUALLY IN JANUARY, LATE JANUARY 1945, I DIDN'T LIVE.

I WAS IN A VERY FOR YOUNGSTERS.

AND BELIEVE ME, I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER A DAY IN THREE MONTHS.

EMPTY.

JUST EMPTY OF ANYTHING.

EMPTY OF HAPPINESS.

EMPTY OF JOY.

EMPTY OF HOPE.

EMPTY OF LIFE.

AUSCHWITZ, OF COURSE, THAT PLACE WAS A PLACE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, A PLACE THAT WAS CREATED BY GERMANY, THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AND ARMY, CREATED JUST TO BRING THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING AND KILLED THEM, JUST LIKE THAT, KILLED THEM.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT TO THIS DAY.

IT WAS NOT EVEN IN THEIR NATIONAL INTEREST WHAT INTEREST DO THEY HAVE TO KILL INNOCENT JEWS?

BUT IT HAPPENED .

>> YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, WITH EACH PASSING YEAR, THE NUMBER OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS GETS SMALLER, GETS LESS AND PEOPLE ASK, WHO IS GOING TO REMEMBER, AND WHO IS GOING TO REMIND?

I ALSO HAVE READ SO MANY STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO SAID, THEY COULD NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS, UNTIL THEY WERE LATER IN LIFE, SURVIVORS WHO WANTED TO GET ON WITH BUILDING THEIR LIFE AND BUILDING A NEW LIFE.

WHAT MADE YOU TALK AND WRITE, AND HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU AFTER LIBERATION, TO BE ABLE TO TELL ABOUT THIS?

>> IT TOOK ME 10 YEARS.

I KNEW I WAS NOT GOING TO WRITE.

I HAD WRITTEN BEFORE, BUT I HAD WRITTEN WHEN I WAS A YOUNGSTER I WAS 12, 13, I FOUND IT IMPACTED MY WHOLE THOUGHTS.

I HAD WRITTEN ON JEWISH, OF ALL THINGS.

I KNEW I WAS GOING TO WRITE, BUT I KNEW ONE DAY I WOULD HAVE TO WRITE AND I DIDN'T FIND THE WORDS.

I WAS AFRAID THAT I WOULD NOT FIND THEM.

I WASN'T SURE BY THE WAY THAT I DID FIND THEM, MAYBE THERE ARE NO WORDS FOR WHAT HAPPENED.

MAYBE SOMEHOW, THE GERMANS, THE CRUEL KILLERS, HAVE SUCCEEDED, AT LEAST IN ONE WAY, THAT DEPRIVED US, THE VICTIMS, OF FINDING THE UPPER LANGUAGE OF SAYING WHAT THEY HAD DONE TO US , BECAUSE THERE ARE NO WORDS FOR IT.

SPEAK MAKE A PROFOUND REFLECTION THERE FROM THE LATE NOBEL LAUREATE AND AUSCHWITZ SURVIVOR, ELIE WIESEL.

>>> NEXT, THE GLOBAL IMPACT OF DONALD TRUMP'S RETURN TO POWER.

HIS SUSPENSION OF REFUGEE EMISSIONS PROGRAM TAKES EFFECT TODAY.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HOPING TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES.

MANY OF THOSE BEING LEFT IN LIMBO ARE AFGHANS, WHO HELPED AMERICA DURING ITS WAR THERE.

IT COMES AS THE RULE IN TALIBAN IN FACT REFLECTS ITS CRACKDOWN ON WOMEN'S RIGHT.

LAST WEEK, THE CRIMINAL COURT AND THAT ANNOUNCED, IT IS TAKING TALIBAN LEADERS FOR GENDER-BASED CRIMES.

FOR OUR NEXT GUEST, THIS IS DEEPLY PERSONAL.

DARA JULIO WAS FORCED TO FLEE HER HOME COUNTRY WHEN THE TALIBAN REGAINED CONTROL IN 2021, AS THE FOUNDER OF MEDIA, SHE SEEKS TO GIVE A VOICE FOR THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN.

SHE JOINED LONDON, WHERE SHE NOW LIVES.

A WARM WELCOME.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE ORDER, NOW PREVENTING REFUGEES FROM REACHING THE U.S. A REMINDER THAT MANY OF THE THOSE WERE PEOPLE THAT HELPED THE UNITED STATES.

ARE THEY ENDANGERED THIS HOUR BECAUSE OF THAT?

HAVE YOU HEARD FROM PEOPLE IMPACTED?

>> HI, GOOD EVENING.

THANK YOU FOR THIS QUESTION.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT HAS IMPACTED A LOT ON THE PEOPLE.

WHEN I RECEIVED THE NEWS ABOUT THE NEW ADMINISTRATION DECISION, I MEAN, MEANING, MANY ASKED-- ARE LIVING IN LIMBO AND PAKISTAN.

OF COURSE, THEIR LIFE UNDER RISK AND UNDER CALIBAN.

THEY LEFT FROM AFGHANISTAN AS THE TALIBAN TOOK POWER.

IT IS A DIFFICULT SITUATION AT THE MOMENT.

>> DO THEY FEEL THE U.S. HAS ABANDONED THEM?

DO YOU HEAR THAT FROM THEM?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

BEFORE I CAME TO YOUR PROGRAM, I RECEIVED MANY MESSAGES, ONE OF THEM JUST CALLED ME AND SAID, WE NEED YOUR VOICE, WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT, AND ASKED, IF GIVEN ANY POSSIBILITY THAT WE CAN REACH OUT TO THE NEW GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO RAISE OUR VOICE, TO SHARE OUR CONCERN HOW IT IS DIFFICULT FOR US, AND THEY FEEL PORTRAYED BETRAYED, OF COURSE.

IT IS VERY, VERY HARD FOR THEM TO REACH THIS STAGE, AND THEY BLEED FROM AFGHANISTAN.

I MEAN, REACHING OUT TO THE UNITED STATES WAS THE ONLY HOPE LEFT FOR THEM.

UNFORTUNATELY, AT THE MOMENT, THEY ARE ALL IN A VERY, VERY DIRE SITUATION.

AMONG THOSE THOUSANDS OF AFGHANS , MOST OF THEM ARE INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE WOMEN, WHO STOOD UP TO THE TALIBAN.

>> I DO WANT TO GET TO ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE ARE SPEAKING TO YOU AS WELL, HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED FOR-- I MEAN, REALLY, IT IS EXTREME THE CRACKDOWN THE TALIBAN HAS BROUGHT TO WOMEN.

IN MANY CASES, THEY HAVE VERY FEW THINGS LEFT, WE CAN'T ENUMERATE THEM ALL HERE.

THINGS LIKE BANNING WINDOWS FROM BUILDINGS WHERE WOMEN WORK.

THEY CANNOT SPEAK.

THEY CANNOT SING.

THEY SHALL NOT BE SEEN.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT NOW ABOUT WHAT WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN ARE TELLING YOU?

>> WELL, AS I MENTIONED, THE SITUATION OF WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN IS VERY, VERY DIRE.

THEY ARE DEPRIVED FROM THEIR MOST BASIC RIGHTS, AS YOU MENTIONED, THEY CANNOT SPEAK ALOUD, THEY CANNOT SEE EACH OTHER FROM THE WINDOW, THEY CANNOT GET FRESH AIR, THEY CANNOT GO TO THE PARK.

ALL THE FREEDOM OF A HUMAN BEING IS GONE, UNFORTUNATELY.

TALIBAN ISSUED MORE THAN 100 DEGREES TO BAN WOMEN FROM EVERYWHERE.

BASICALLY, WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN ARE FACING DEHUMANIZATION PROCESS OF THE TALIBAN REGIME.

>> YOU GREW UP UNDER THE TALIBAN'S FIRST ERA.

IN FACT, YOU PRETENDED TO BE A BOY JUST TO GO TO SCHOOL.

HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH, WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY?

>> WELL, FOR ME, I THINK MY STORY IS NOT UNIQUE.

THIS CYCLE OF DEPRIVING, AND THE CYCLE OF VIOLATION AGAINST WOMEN ARE GOING ON AFTER, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN 20 YEARS.

FOR ME, OF COURSE IT WAS HORRIBLE.

IT WAS A DARK MOMENT.

IN FACT, THERE WAS A LITTLE OF A DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE AT THAT TIME, THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, THEY COULDN'T STAND UP AGAINST THE TALIBAN.

THEY JUST DID IN SECRET WHAT THEY COULD, WHAT I DID, FOR EXAMPLE, IT WAS LIKE A COMPLETELY SECRET ACTION TO GET AN EDUCATION.

I THINK THE SECOND TIME THE TALIBAN RETURNED TO POWER, HUNDREDS OF WOMEN RAISED THEIR VOICES, THEY DID PROTEST, ASKED FOR JUSTICE AND EQUALITY.

FRAUDULENTLY UNFORTUNATELY, MANY OF THEM WERE ARRESTED.

FOR ME, IT IS REALLY, REALLY HARD TO DESCRIBE WHAT THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN HAVE GONE THROUGH.

>> THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT HAS SAID, IT IS SEEKING ARREST FOR TALIBAN LEADERS FOR WHAT THEY SAY ARE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, CRIMES AGAINST WOMEN.

THIS IS NOT IN ITS OWN WAY GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE.

HOW MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE DO YOU BELIEVE THOSE ICC ARREST WARRANTS WILL MAKE FOR THE TALIBAN ITSELF?

MET I THINK THIS IS A VERY GOOD ADJUSTMENT FOR WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, BUT OF COURSE IT IS NOT ENOUGH, AS YOU COMPARE THE SUBMISSION OF THE WOMEN AT THE MOMENT.

IT IS HEARTBREAKING.

IT IS DEVASTATING.

BUT AGAIN, IT GIVES A LITTLE BIT OF ATTENTION, INTERNATIONAL, GLOBAL ATTENTION.

THE NEWS ANNOUNCED FOR ICC, THERE WAS LOTS OF ATTENTION AGAIN ABOUT THE SITUATION OF THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN.

I MEAN, IT IS A LONG PROCESS.

IT MAY TAKE MUCH TIME TO FINAL COURT.

WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, THEY ARE SEEKING INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY.

THEY ARE SEEKING FOR MORE VOICE.

YOU KNOW?

WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN ARE ASKING FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, PARTICULARLY UNITED NATIONS TO RECOGNIZE THE TALIBAN AS A GENERAL APARTHEID REGIME.

I THINK WE CANNOT WAIT TO TAKE PARTICULAR ACTION, BECAUSE WE'VE ALREADY LOST SO MUCH TIME.

BECAUSE OF AFGHANISTAN, THE GENERATION OF ONE IN AFGHANISTAN, THEY'VE ALREADY GOTTEN OUT FROM THE CIRCLE OF EDUCATION, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, AS YOU SAY, BECAUSE THOSE WOMEN ARE SUFFERING FROM THAT RIGHT NOW.

TO YOUR POINT, YOUR ORGANIZATION IS NAMED AFTER A WOMAN WHO WAS STONED TO DEATH.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE HER STORY TO US?

IT WAS ABSOLUTELY A BRUTAL COME A SAVAGE MURDER.

HOW DOES IT ALSO GIVE VOICE TO WHAT WOMEN ARE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW TODAY IN AFGHANISTAN?

>> YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, AS I MENTIONED, THE TALIBAN, AS A REGIME, THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

ROSATO WAS A YOUNG GIRL, 19 YEARS OLD FROM AFGHANISTAN.

SHE FLEE FROM A FORCED MARRIAGE, BASICALLY.

IN 2013, THE TALIBAN ARRESTED HER IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS, MANY, MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, NATO FORCES.

SHE WAS STONED TO DEATH BY THE TALIBAN.

I, AS A JOURNALIST, WANTED TO BREACH THE SILENCE, TO JUST CREATE THIS NEWSROOM AND FOR SHAUNA AND HER MEMORIAL.

A KIND OF MIRROR FOR THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, THAT THEY ARE REFLECTING THEMSELVES ON THAT MIRROR, AND THEY ARE SEEING THEMSELVES ON THAT MIRROR, UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS ALL VERY, VERY SAD NEWS THEY ARE PUBLISHING THE STORIES.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN DO.

>> YOU ARE BRINGING LIGHT TO WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH EACH AND EVERY DAY.

I WILL NOT FORGET THE FACES OF ALL THOSE WOMEN AND GIRLS WHEN I WAS IN AFGHANISTAN.

BRINGS ABOUT A POINT, DO YOU FEEL WESTERN ALLIES, THE UNITED STATES IN PARTICULAR?

>> WELL, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT AT THE MOMENT.

I BEEN DOING THIS THREE YEARS, WHEN THE TALIBAN ACTUALLY BROUGHT TO POWER IN AFGHANISTAN.

THE ISSUE OF ENSURING THESE RIGHTS WAS NOTHING MORE THAN AN EMPTY SLOT.

FOR ME, I AM VERY, I TRIED TO BE OPTIMISTIC, BUT IT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO BE HOPEFUL.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, A PLACE YOU KNOW SO WELL IN TERMS OF WANTING TO BE HOPEFUL, BUT UNDERSTANDING HOW YOU NEED TO PERSEVERE, GO AHEAD.

ALL OF THAT IS BEFORE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING THESE ISSUES TO LIGHT, APPRECIATE IT.

>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SUSPENSION OF THAT REFUGEE PROGRAM, DISCUSSING ONE OF SEVEN EXECUTIVE ACTIONS OVER AIMED AT OVERHAULING THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

ON SUNDAY IN FACT, IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT REPORTED MAKING MORE THAN 900 ARRESTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AS A RESULT OF THE PRESIDENT'S CAMPAIGN TO CRACKDOWN ON UNDOCUMENTED MIGRANTS.

HE IS ALREADY PROVING HE WILL NOT BACK DOWN ON HIS PROMISES, AFTER COLUMBIA ANNOUNCED, IT HAS AGREED TO ALL OF HIS TERMS FOLLOWING A DISPUTE OVER MIGRANT REPATRIATION FLIGHTS.

FROM THE NEW YORKER, JONATHAN JOINED TO BREAK IT DOWN.

>> YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A RECENT PIECE TITLING, QUOTE, THE UNCHECKED AUTHORITY OF TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION ORDERS.

LET'S BREAK DOWN THE TITLE, LITTLE BY LITTLE.

WHAT IS THE UNCHECKED AUTHORITY YOU ARE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT?

>> THERE ARE TWO WAYS I THINK THIS LATEST VOLLEY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND PRESIDENTIAL ACTIONS ARE UNCHECKED.

THE FIRST IS THAT THEY ARE VERY MUCH BUILT INTO THE LANGUAGE AND LANGUAGE LOGIC OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

THIS NOTION THAT MASS MIGRATION CONSTITUTES A KIND OF INVASION, THAT WORD IS WHAT WE HAVE HEARD A LOT OF POLITICALLY, AND AT THIS POINT, ALMOST NUMB TO HOW HISTRIONIC AND DRAMATIC IT SOUNDS.

ON A LEGAL SENSE, THE CLAIM BEING MADE BY THE NEW ADMINISTRATION IS, THE SO- CALLED INVASION NECESSITY, A WHOLE HOST OF NEW PRESIDENTIAL POWERS.

THE PRESIDENT ALWAYS HAS A LOT OF LATITUDE AND POWER OVER IMMIGRATION POLICY, BUT THE PROPOSAL THAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE CONSTELLATION OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, AND A LOT OF THE EARLY ACTION OF THE ADMINISTRATION SUGGEST THAT THEY ARE TAKING THE BROADEST POSSIBLE VIEW OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT CAN DO TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY OF PEOPLE MIGRATING IN THE REGION.

THAT IS THE FIRST WAY IN WHICH THIS KIND OF NEW SET OF POWERS ARE INJECTED.

THE OTHER IS I THINK A POLITICAL ISSUE, WHICH IS, IN A MOMENT WHERE THE GENERAL CONSENSUS SEEMS TO BE, AND I DON'T THINK IT IS AS CLEAR AS THE CONFERENCE IS SEEMS TO SUGGEST, THE PRESIDENT HAS A POPULAR MANDATE TO PURSUE A LOT OF THESE IMMIGRATION POLICIES.

IMMIGRATION POLICIES ARE EXTREMELY COMPLEX.

I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT HE ALWAYS UNDERSTANDS DIFFERENT FACETS OF WHAT IMMIGRATION POLICY LOOKS LIKE, OR THAT THE IMPACT IT HAS ON PEOPLE LIVING IN THE U.S.. MY BIG CONCERN TOO, THE SAME DAY, THE FIRST DAY IN WHICH THIS TOOK PLACE, YOU ALSO HAD IN THE SENATE 12 DEMOCRATS JOINING REPUBLICANS TO TEST WHAT IS CALLED THE LAKEN RILEY ACT WHICH IS DREW COUNTY AND AND VERY EXTREME ENFORCEMENT POLICY , WHICH SUGGESTS TO ME THAT THE FACT THAT DEMOCRATS RIGHT NOW ARE VERY MUCH COWERING FROM THE KIND OF POLITICAL THREAT THAT TRUMP SEEMS TO REPRESENT ON THIS ISSUE.

MY CONCERN TO MAKE IS THAT WE ARE ENTERING A MOMENT OF VERY WILD AND RADICAL POLICYMAKING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, WHEN THERE SEEMS TO BE A REAL SCARCITY OF POLITICAL IMPEDIMENTS.

>> LET'S TAKE IT ONE STEP AT A TIME HERE.

WE WILL GET TO THE LAKEN RILEY ACT.

FIRST, WHAT IS THE VALUE, OR I GUESS THE WORTH AND GIVING SOMETHING A NAME, CALLING IT AN INVASION, OR AS ONE OF THE OTHER EXECUTIVE ORDERS DID, COMING OUT CARTELS, CALLING THEM FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS?

>> THERE ARE TWO THINGS YOU SEE IN THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, THE FIRST IS SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP BEFORE IN HIS FIRST TERM, WHICH IS DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY AT THE SOUTHERN ORDER.

FACTUALLY, I THINK THAT IS WILD , WE ARE AT A MOMENT WHEN THE NUMBER OF ARRIVALS AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER OUR WAY DOWN.

IN FACT, THE SITUATION IS VERY MUCH UNDER CONTROL.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY THE SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED REFORM AND REPAIR, BUT THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING, THERE IS AN EMERGENCY, AND HE IS SENDING FEDERAL TROOPS TO THE PENTAGON TO ASSIST DHS, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, THAT ALREADY TO MY MIND IS A REAL MISCONSTRUE OF WHAT THE REALITY IS ON THE GROUND.

BUT TO YOUR QUESTION, THE UTILITY FOR THE NEW ADMINISTRATION OF CALLING MASS MIGRATION AN INVASION IS, IT ALLOWS THE PRESIDENT, BY LOGIC OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS AN UNSETTLED LEGAL MATTER AND THERE WILL BE ALL KINDS OF CHALLENGES IN COURT, BUT BY LOGIC OF THESE ORDERS, THE IDEA IS THAT BECAUSE THE ARRIVAL, SO MANY PEOPLE CONSTITUTE AN INVASION, THE PRESIDENT HAS THE AUTHORITY TO OVER AND ABOVE AUTHORITY LAID OUT IN THE IMMIGRATION STATUES THAT REGULATE AND DIRECT IMMIGRATION POLICY, AND THEY GO TO QUESTIONS THAT ARE CONSTITUTIONAL, THAT THE PRESIDENT, COMMANDER IN CHIEF, HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO REPEL INVASIONS, DEFEND THE TERRITORIAL SOVEREIGNTY OF THE UNITED STATES.

ONCE WE ENTERED THAT TERRITORY, THE SCALE OF WHAT THE U.S. MILITARY CAN BE BROUGHT IN TO DO , EXPAND CONSIDERABLY.

WE ARE IN UNCHARTED TERRITORY HERE, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS WOULD ALL LOOK LIKE CONCRETELY, BUT STUDYING THROUGH THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS ARE REFERENCES TO EXTREMELY RARE AND ALARMING HISTORICAL FACTS, LIKE THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT OF 1798, THE INSURRECTION ACT, THAT BASICALLY FORECAST THAT THE PRESIDENT IS WILLING TO GO TO GREAT, GREAT LENGTH TO USE THE MILITARY TO START CARRYING OUT ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS AT THE BORDER AND INTERIOR OF THE COUNTRY.

WE WILL HAVE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THIS MATERIALIZES, BUT THAT IS AT LEAST THE LOGIC LAID OUT IN SOME OF THESE ORDERS.

>> THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT, OR INSPIRATION ACT, SOME OF THESE REFERENCES, THESE WERE INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT TIMES IN AMERICA, RIGHT?

AT THE SAME TIME, THE PRESIDENT, EVEN IN HIS FIRST TERM, WAS ABLE TO MOBILIZE U.S.

TROOPS TO GO TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WE HEAR NOW THAT THE PENTAGON WILL DISPATCH ANOTHER 150 PEOPLE AT THE BORDER AS A LAST WEEK.

>> AND I SHOULD SAY, THE FACT THAT TROOPS ARE BEING SENT TO THE BORDER TO WORK IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE, NOT ONLY UNDER TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM, BUT UNDER DEMOCRATS AS WELL.

THAT, ON ITS OWN, IS IT SOMETHING OUT OF LEFT FIELD DAY, IN THE HISTORY OF U.S. POLICYMAKING IN REGARDS TO THE BOARD.

GENERALLY THOUGH, THERE HAS BEEN MORE OF A SPECIFIC JUSTIFICATION FOR SENDING THOSE TROOPS AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN TIME.

FOR INSTANCE, THERE ARE HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE ARRIVING, IT IS NOT FAIR OR ACCURATE TO SAY THAT FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES ARE OVERWHELMED AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

IT IS EXTREMELY DUBIOUS TO BE STAGING THIS BIT OF POLITICAL THEATER WITH TROOPS BEING SENT TO THE BORDER.

THE FACT OF SENDING TROOPS, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE HAD ACTUALLY ALWAYS HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN IMMIGRATION MANAGEMENT AT THE BORDER, WHETHER IT IS TO PROVIDE PROVISIONAL DETENTION CENTERS FOR NEWLY ENTERED MIGRANTS, TO HELP WITH MONITORING, LOGISTICAL TASKS ALONG THE BORDER, THAT SORT OF THING ON ITS OWN ISN'T WILDLY UNPRECEDENTED.

WHAT IS IT THE LANGUAGE IN THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, DIGESTING THAT BUT THE U.S. IS FACING IS THE SO-CALLED INVASION , A SO-CALLED HIGHER ORDER OF MILITARY INTERVENTION.

THAT TO ME IS A MAJOR DEPARTMENT AND MAJOR ESCALATION TO WHAT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN.

>> ONE OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, ABOUT BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP, CHALLENGING 14th AMENDMENT, HAS ALREADY BEEN CONSTITUTIONALLY CHALLENGED.

THERE WAS A FEDERAL JUDGE ON THURSDAY THAT BLOCKED IT SAYING, IT WAS QUOTE, BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I GUESS, WHY EVEN TAKE THAT STEP?

WHAT IS BEHIND TRYING TO DRAFT AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT NOT ONLY YOU KNOW WILL BE CHALLENGED, BUT VERY LIKELY WILL GET BLOCKED IN COURT?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION, I THINK BUILT INTO THE NEW ADMINISTRATION'S PLANS, AND THAT I HAVE GOTTEN FROM THE PRESIDENT'S ADVISERS, AND ALLIES OF THE PRESIDENT'S OVER THE YEARS, IS THIS IDEA THAT IF THEY FLOWED THE ZONE DAY ONE, IF THEY ACCOMPLISH, AS ONE PRESIDENTIAL ADVISORY TOLD ME IN THE PAST, THE IDEA IS TO ACCOMPLISH IN 100 HOURS, WHAT USED TO BE ACCOMPLISHED IN 100 DAYS.

THE FEELING BEING, IF WE OVERWHELMED ALL THE OPPOSITION, OPPOSITION FROM DEMOCRATS, OPPOSITION FROM-- RESISTANCE FROM THE PUBLIC, WE CAN ACHIEVE BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO KNOW WHERE OUR POLITICAL OPPONENTS WILL START.

THE IDEA THAT BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP EXECUTIVE ORDER WOULD COME OUT AS STARKLY AN IMMEDIATE AS IT DID IS, I THINK, ALSO REFLECTIVE OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE WILLING AND READY TO FIGHT THIS THING IN COURT.

I WOULD SAY AN ANCILLARY POLITICAL BENEFIT FOR THEM IN THESE KIND OF PROTRACTED LEGAL BATTLES IS, THE FACT THAT THE PUBLIC GETS SENSITIZED TO SOME OF THE TERMS UNDER DISCUSSION.

>> JONATHAN, THAT REMINDS ME, THERE WERE ALREADY REPORTS IN NEWARK, NEW JERSEY, THERE WERE I.C.E.

RAIDS ON THE CIVIC BUSINESS.

I KNOW SENATOR BOOKER, AND THE MAYOR HAVE BEEN PUSHING BACK ABOUT THIS AND WANT MORE INFORMATION ON EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A GAP HERE BETWEEN WHAT IS LAID OUT AS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ON DAY ONE, WHETHER WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE COURTS TO HAVE INJUNCTIONS, AND TO STOP THINGS, VERSUS LIKE A MEMO THAT GETS WRITTEN TO THE LOCAL I.C.E.

OFFICE THAT SAYS, YOU CAN DO THIS NOW.

>> IN THE PAST, THE WAY ASCO CONDUCTED ITS OPERATIONS IS, IT PRIORITIZES PEOPLE FOR ARREST.

THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER DOCUMENT PEOPLE LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT BODY TO ATTEMPT TO ARREST ALL OF THEM UNLESS THERE ARE GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOR HOW THEY GO ABOUT THAT WORK.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS, I.C.E.

, AS AN AGENCY, HAS DEFINED A SET OF PRIORITIES WHEREBY IT ESSENTIALLY TARGETS FOR ARREST AND DEPORTATION PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED SERIOUS CRIMES AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE ARRIVED VERY RECENTLY IN THE COUNTRY AND ARE UNDOCUMENTED AND HAVE ORDERS FOR REMOVAL.

WHEN THAT IS MEANT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T FALL INTO THOSE PARTICULAR CATEGORIES IS, BY AND LARGE, THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE RANDOMNESS OF GETTING SWEPT UP IN A PARTICULAR DAY BECAUSE OF THEIR LEGAL STATUS.

THAT IS ALL OUT THE WINDOW.

A LOT OF CHECKS ON HOW I.C.E.

ARREST OCCURRED IN THE PAST ARE ALSO OUT THE WINDOW.

FOR INSTANCE, FOR YEARS, THERE WAS A KIND OF GENERAL IDEA LAID OUT IN REGULATION AT I.C.E.

, YOU WOULD NOT MAKE ARRESTS AT SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS, PLACES OF WORSHIP IT IS CALLED, THE SENSITIVE LOCATIONS POLICY.

THAT POLICY HAS BEEN SCRAPPED.

THE IDEA NOW REALLY IS IT IS A FREE FOR ALL IN THE WAY THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE WILL SEE FLAREUPS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND IN PARTICULARLY IN DEMOCRATIC ENCLAVES, BECAUSE THERE ARE A, LARGE IMMIGRANT POPULATIONS IN METROPOLITAN AREAS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND B, THOSE CITIES REPRESENT TO THE PRESIDENT AND HIS PARTY, POLITICAL OPPOSITION.

>> ARE WE HEADING TO A SCENARIO HERE WHERE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TRIES TO PROSECUTE STATE, LOCAL JURISDICTIONS AND INDIVIDUALS, AND KIND OF, HOW DOES THAT TENSION GETS RESOLVED ?

>> ONE OF THE STRIKING THINGS WITH SANCTUARY JURISDICTIONS, AND SO ON IS, THE POLITICS IN THESE PLACES HAS ALSO STARTED TO REALLY SHIFT THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

THERE WAS A LOT MORE OUTRIGHT RESISTANCE TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN 2017, DURING THAT FIRST TERM, THEN THERE IS NOW.

SOME OF THIS IS THE RESULT OF THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS'S GREG ABBOTT'S BUSING PLAN, WHICH BEGAN SPRING 2022.

HE MUST MORE THAN 100,000 RECENTLY ARRIVED MIGRANTS FROM TEXAS TO BLUE CITIES AND DATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITHOUT COORDINATING WITH LOCAL AUTHORITIES AT THE TIME, VERY MUCH OVERWHELMING CITY AND STATE RESOURCES.

AS A RESULT, IN A LOT OF THE CITY, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM NEW YORK ME THE POLITICS IN NEW YORK CITY ITSELF, AND IN THE SUBURBS OF YORK CITY AND THE STATE AT LARGE, HAVE REALLY SHIFTED.

OVER AND ABOVE THE LEGAL QUESTIONS YOU ARE FLAGGING , THERE IS ALL THIS QUESTION OF POLITICAL WILL.

IF THERE IS SUSTAINED AND SERIOUS PRESSURE FROM THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION , BROUGHT TO BEAR ON CITIES AND STATES THAT TYPICALLY HAVE HELD THE LINE AGAINST THE FEDERAL ENCOURAGEMENT.

YOU KNOW, DO LOCAL OFFICEHOLDERS OR STATE OFFICEHOLDERS REALLY WANT TO DUKE IT OUT AT A TIME WHEN IT SEEMS THAT BY AND LARGE, THE PUBLIC'S HOSTILITY TO IMMIGRATION AS A WHOLE HAS REALLY GROWN.

>> YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THE LAKEN RILEY ACT.

FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AWARE OF IT, WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT THAT JUST PASSED THE SENATE?

>> THE LAKEN RILEY ACT ESSENTIALLY DOES TWO THINGS, FIRST IT REQUIRES THE DETENTION OF ANY UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WHO IS CHARGED, EVEN MINOR CRIMES LIKE SHOPLIFTING, FOR INSTANCE.

JUST TO SAY, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE CONVICTED OF THESE CRIMES, MERELY CHARGED TO TRIGGER THE MANDATORY DETENTION , AND WHAT ALMOST ALWAYS FOLLOWS THE CASE IN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS IN THESE CASES, DEPORTATION.

THE SECOND CON OF THIS LAW, WHICH IN MANY WAYS IS EQUALLY RADICAL, IS THAT THE IDEA THAT IT ALLOWS STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL TO SUE U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL, OR THE SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY-- PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY JUST MEANS SOMEONE GIVEN LEGAL PROTECTION TO ENTER THE COUNTRY, A LEGAL STATUS, KIND OF AN OFFICIAL WAY OF BRINGING SOMEONE INTO THE COUNTRY.

IF A PERSON WHO PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY GOES ON TO COMMIT ANY SORT OF CRYING OR CAUSES ANY KIND OF DAMAGE, WHETHER IT IS TO A PERSON, OR TO THE FINANCES OF A PERSON, OR THE STATE IN AN AMOUNT MORE THAN $100.

I MEAN, THIS IS EXTRAORDINARILY DRACONIAN.

THE FACT THAT DEMOCRATS IMMEDIATELY GOT ON BOARD WITH IT, DID NOT EVEN PUT UP MUCH OF A FIGHT, OR PUSH IN A SERIOUS WAY FOR AMENDMENTS OR CARVEOUTS, REALLY REFLECTS THEIR DESPERATION TO TRY TO OUTRUN THIS IMMIGRATION ISSUE, REALLY DOGGED THEIR PARTY, IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT HAS CLEARLY USED TO HIS ADVANTAGE.

>> WE HAVE BEEN TALKING A LOT ABOUT IMMIGRANTS COMING ACROSS THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

THERE ARE ASYLUM-SEEKERS, REFUGEES.

THOSE PROGRAMS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE ALREADY ALSO BEEN AFFECTED BY THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION.

WE SAW THE ACT THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT BE USING AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WE HAVE ALSO HEARD REPORTS ABOUT REFUGEES, INCLUDING ABOUT WHAT, 1500, 1600 AFGHANS, THE UNITED STATES HAS SAID, WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU, THEY ARE IN LIMBO TOO.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

>> THE U.S.

REFUGEE PROGRAM, WHICH TRUMPS A SINCERELY ESSENTIALLY DECIMATED HIS FIRST PROGRAM, GOT RESTORED.

NOW, IT HAS BEEN FROZEN IN PLACE AGAIN BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN THE FORM OF HIS EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT BASICALLY SAYS, ANYONE AT ANY STAGE IN A REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT PROCESS IS NOW ON HOLD.

YOU HAVE 10,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN VETTED, WHOSE SECURITY BACKGROUND CHECKS HAVE ALREADY BEEN RUN, WHO ARE LITERALLY JUST WAITING FOR AIRFARE TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES AND BE RESETTLED ARE NOW STUCK WITH NO OBVIOUS PATH FORWARD FOR THEM.

THAT IS ONE CON OF ALL OF THIS.

AS YOU MENTIONED, AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REALLY CRACKED DOWN ON ASYLUM IN BETWEEN PORTS OF ENTRY.

SO, IF PEOPLE WERE TO SHOW UP AT THE BORDER SEEKING ASYLUM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS VERY HARSH IF PEOPLE SHOWED UP IN THE PORTS OF ENTRY.

WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DID SIMULTANEOUSLY IS SAID, EVERY DAY AT PORTS OF ENTRY, THERE ARE APPOINTMENTS FOR 1400 PEOPLE A DAY TO BE PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY.

THAT WAY, THEY CAN BEGIN ANY SORT OF LEGAL PROCESS THEY WANT TO PURSUE.

THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IN ITS EXECUTIVE ORDERS HAS ALSO IMMEDIATELY HALTED THE APP THAT ALLOWED FOR THOSE APPLICATIONS AND SCHEDULING TO START.

AN ADDITIONAL PROGRAM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD PUT IN PLACE, ALLOWING FOR 30,000 MIGRANTS FROM FOUR COUNTRIES WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN HIGH RATES OF IMMIGRATION THE LAST FEW YEARS, THAT ALSO GOT FROZEN IN PLACE.

NOW, THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO BY AND LARGE WERE TRYING TO AVAIL THEMSELVES OF SPECIFIC LEGAL CHANNELS CREATED BY PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, OR ALREADY EXISTING IN U.S. LAW, ARE NOW COMPLETELY FROZEN OUT OF THE SYSTEM.

>> JONATHAN, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS TOPIC FOR QUITE SOME TIME, EVEN WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT, EVERYONE WHO IS GONE IS HERE.

PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US, GIVEN THE LENGTH OF TIME YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING IMMIGRATION, HOW SIGNIFICANT ARE THE CHANGES WE ARE SEEING REALLY IN THE PAST WEEK, AND COMPARE THAT TO WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, THE IMMIGRATION POLICY THAT SEEMED TO EBB AND FLOW FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE NEXT.

>> A LOT OF THE STUFF YOU'RE HEARING ABOUT, A LOT OF THE STUFF YOU'RE SEEING, WHETHER IN THE FORM OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS OR THIS NEW LEGISLATION, ARE NOT ADDRESSING PARTICULARLY ACUTE NEEDS THAT EXPERTS SAY ARE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED TO IMPROVE THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

THE POLITICAL CONVERSATION I GUESS WHEN I TAKE THIS KIND OF BROADER VIEW, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, POLITICS AROUND IMMIGRATION HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTENSE, ALWAYS FLARED UP OVER TIME.

WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE THE POLITICS HAVE VEERED OFF SO DRASTICALLY FROM ANY OF THE ACTUAL POLICY DISCUSSIONS OF WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN OR WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO ME I THINK THERE IS THIS LEVEL OF DYSFUNCTION THAT IS NEW.

>> JONATHAN BLITZER, AUTHOR OF "EVERYONE WHO IS GONE" IS HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> ON THIS IMPORTANT DAY OF REMEMBRANCE, YOUR THOUGHTS, AS YEARS PASSED, UNDERSTANDING OF THE HOLOCAUST UNFORTUNATELY DIMINISHES, IT IS VITAL TO CONTINUE LISTENING TO THE FIRST- HAND ACCOUNTS OF SURVIVORS THEMSELVES, TO THE JOURNALISTS WHO BORE WITNESS.

THE BBC'S RICHARD MODI WAS THE FIRST REPORTER TO ENTER THE LIBERATED BERGEN-BELSEN CONCENTRATION CAMP.

HERE IS A PART OF THE RADIO REPORTS HE FILED ON THE HORRORS HE SAW.

>> I FIND IT HARD TO DESCRIBE THE KIND OF HORRIBLE THINGS I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD, BUT HERE, UNADORNED ARE THE FACTS.

I PASS THROUGH THE BARRIER AND FOUND MYSELF IN A WORLD OF A NIGHTMARE.

EIGHT BODIES, SOME OF THEM INDICATE, LAY STREWN ABOUT THE ROAD AND ALONG THE ROTTED TRACKS.

ON EACH SIDE OF THE ROAD, BROWN, WOODEN HEARTS, FACES ON THE WINDOW.

THE FOLLY OF EMACIATED FACES OF STARVING WOMEN TOO WEAK TO COME OUTSIDE, PROPPING THEMSELVES AGAINST THE GLASS TO SEE DAYLIGHT BEFORE THEY DIE.

AND THEY WERE DYING, EVERY HOUR, EVERY MINUTE.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, FIND OUT UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.COM/ AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO." JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.