From the Holocaust to Gaza: Dr. Gabor Maté on the Impact of Trauma

>>> FOR THOSE PALESTINIANS RETURNING TO THEIR HOMES IN NORTHERN GAZA AND THE FAMILIES IN ISRAEL REUNITING WITH THEIR LOVED ONES, CONVERSATION NOW BEGINS TO TURN TO REBUILDING.

PROCESSING AND, YES, EVENTUALLY HEALING.

IT'S NOTHING THAT OUR NEXT GUEST AS AN INTIMATE UNDERSTANDING OF AS A SURVIVOR OF THE HOLOCAUST.

RENOWNED PHYSICIAN, AUTHOR, AND SELF-HELP GROUP DR. GABOR MATE JOINED MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HIS OWN EXPERIENCES AND HOW THEY INFORMED HIS OWN EXPERIENCES ON TRAUMA, ISRAEL, AND THE PALESTINIAN EXPERIENCE.

>> YOU ARE RENOWNED FOR YOUR WORK AS A PHYSICIAN, AN AUTHOR, A SPEAKER, MANY PEOPLE KNOW YOUR WORK, ESPECIALLY YOUR WORK ABOUT TRAUMA AND THE WAY THAT TRAUMA COULD HAVE GENERATIONAL IMPACT BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK, WOULD YOU MIND DESCRIBING HOW YOUR FAMILIES EXPERIENCE WITH THE HOLOCAUST INFORMS US WORK?

>> I WAS BORN A JEWISH INFANT TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE NAZIS UP BECAUSE I DO MY OWN COUNTRY, HUNGRY.

MY GRANDPARENTS DIED IN AUGUST WAS WHEN I WAS FIVE YEARS OF AGE.

MY -- MY FATHER WAS AWAY FOR THE FIRST YEAR AND A HALF OF MY LIFE AND FORCED LABOR.

I WAS HEAVILY IMPACTED BY THE BOMBING OF THE WAR AND OF COURSE, THE TERROR INFLICTED ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN MY HOMELAND AND THAT HAD LIFELONG EFFECTS ON MY FUNDAMENTAL FUNCTIONING AND EMOTIONAL FUNCTIONING.

HOW I FEEL ABOUT MYSELF, I'VE HAD TO DO A LOT OF HEALING TO OVERCOME MANY OF THE IMPACTS OF THAT TRAUMA.

>> HOW DID YOU COME TO KNOW THIS ABOUT YOURSELF BECAUSE I THINK SOME PEOPLE THINK THE EXPERIENCE THAT INFANTS HAVE, YOUR PREVERBAL AT THAT TIME AND SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO SORT OF ARTICULATE THOSE MEMORIES.

HOW DID YOU COME TO KNOW THAT THOSE EARLY EXPERIENCES HAD SUCH AN IMPACT ON YOUR LIFE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, BY HAVING TO DO WITH MY OWN ISSUES, DIFFICULTY PAYING ATTENTION, MY ADHD TENDENCIES, MY DEPRESSION, MY DESPITE ALL THE SUCCESS THAT I HAD IN THE WORLD AND THEN OF COURSE, AS A PHYSICIAN AND A RESEARCHER AND A READER OF THE RESEARCH, I FOUND OUT ABOUT OUR PREVERBAL EXPERIENCES, EVEN INTER-UTERO EXPERIENCES SHAPED THE HUMAN BRAIN AND HUMAN PERSONALITY.

IT WAS NOT DIFFICULT TO DRAW THE LINES BETWEEN MY EXPERIENCES AND MY LATER CHALLENGES, GIVEN WHAT SCIENCE HAS TOLD US ABOUT THE IMPACT OF YOUR EXPERIENCES AND THE MORE PREVERBAL IT IS, THE DEEPER IT IS, ACTUALLY.

>> OTHER THINGS ABOUT YOUR WORK THAT STRIKES US IS THAT YOU DESCRIBE THE IMPACT OF TRAUMA ON A CELLULAR LEVEL, ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL BUT YOU ALSO DESCRIBE IT AS HAVING SOCIAL IMPACT.

THAT THERE CAN BE TRAUMAS THAT PENETRATE A SOCIETY DEEPLY AND THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WE CALLED YOU, BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE THROES OF MOMENT OF SORT OF PROFOUND INTERNATIONAL TRAUMA >> YES.

>> LET'S JUST START WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL.

WE ARE MORE THAN A YEAR PASSED THE HAMAS ATTACK ON SOUTHERN ISRAEL.

WHAT IMPACT DO YOU THINK IT HAS HAD, BOTH ON THE PEOPLE WHO DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED IT IT AND ALSO ON THE SOCIETY AT LARGE?

AND OF COURSE, I WILL ASK YOU ABOUT GAZA BECAUSE YES, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, IT'S ESTIMATED THAT NEARLY 15,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED SO FAR AND THE NUMBER MAY BE GREATER THAN THAT.

>> LET'S FACE IT, OCTOBER 7th, OVER 1200 PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND THAT CAME UP AS A HUGE SHOCK TO ISRAELIS AND MANY OF THEM EXPERIENCED IT AS VERY DRAMATIC, AS WE WERE EXPECTING THEM TO COME AND THAT'S NATURAL AND UNDERSTANDABLE AND WE CAN ONLY FEEL WITH THEM FOR THE SHOCK AND THE TRAUMA THEY EXPERIENCED.

ALL THE MORE SO SINCE THEY GREW OFF IN ISRAEL AND I'M SPEAKING AS A FORMER ZIONIST AND SPEAKING AS A JEW, AS SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN TO ISRAEL, GAZA, THE WEST BANK, BEEN TO THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, AS WORKED WITH ISRAELI PSYCHOLOGIST AND PALESTINIAN THERAPIST AND PSYCHOLOGISTS AND THE ISRAEL MENTALITY HAS WAS BEEN THAT WE ARE UNDER ATTACK, WE ARE UNDER THREAT, THEY ARE ALL AGAINST US AND OCTOBER 7th, THAT WAS SOMETHING MORE CONFIRMATION OF WHAT THEY HAD ALREADY BELIEVED.

-- HISTORY DID NOT BEGIN ON OCTOBER THE SEVENTH.

THERE'S A CONFLICT THERE THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR AT LEAST 1947, '48 BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT HISTORICALLY, IT'S BEEN GOING FOR 150 YEARS.

AND SO THAT TERRIBLE EVENT OF OCTOBER THE SEVENTH WAS ONE MORE MANIFESTATION OF A INTRACTABLE AND GENERALLY DESTRUCTIVE, TRAUMATIC CONFLICT THAT HAS BESET IN THE WORLD FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

SO IT'S NOT JUST -- THE SHOCK AND TRAUMA OF OCTOBER 7th, WE CANNOT SEPARATE IT FROM HISTORY.

>> OBVIOUSLY, ISRAELIS OFTEN FEEL THAT THEY ARE SINGLED OUT FOR SORT OF A MORAL SCRUTINY THAT IS NOT DIRECTED AT OTHERS BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I'M JUST WONDERING IF YOU THINK OVERALL DOES THAT EXPERIENCE OF INHERITED TRAUMA AND EXPERIENCE TRAUMA IN REAL TIME, DO YOU THINK IT'S INFLUENCING THE WAY ISRAELI LEADERSHIP AND ISRAELI SOCIETY IS RESPONDING TO WHAT HAPPENED?

>> IT'S INTERESTING THAT ONE MORE TIME WE BEGAN WITH THE EXPERIENCE AND -- ISRAELIS.

WHEREAS IF YOU LOOK AT HISTORICALLY, BY VAST GAP THE GREATEST TRAUMA HAS BEEN INFLICTED ON THE PALESTINIANS FOR DECADES.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT THAT THEN.

SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WELL, IN JUST 1947, '48, THERE WERE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS MASSACRED BY THE ISRAELIS AND THE LEBANESE WAR.

20,000 CIVILIANS WERE KILLED BY THE ISRAELIS IN LEBANON, CIVILIANS AND I COULD NAME YOU MULTIPLE MASSACRES OF PALESTINIANS DOCUMENTED BY ISRAELI HISTORIANS.

I'M NOT REPEATING THEIR PROPAGANDA HERE.

I'M TELLING YOU WHAT ISRAELI HISTORIANS HAVE UNEARTHED AND DOCUMENTED AND PROVEN WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

AND IN THE WEST, WE TEND NOT TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

WE TEND TO TALK ABOUT ISRAELIS, PURELY AS VICTIMS.

BUT SURELY, ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED.

IT'S BEEN TERRIBLE, TERRORISM THAT THEY HAVE SUFFERED.

NOBODY IS QUESTIONING THAT AND NOBODY IS JUSTIFYING IT, EITHER.

BUT IT HAPPENED IN A CONTEXT.

SO WHEN THE ISRAELIS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE SINGLED OUT, THEY ARE NOT SINGLED OUT FOR NEARLY THE CRITICISM THE PALESTINIAN SIDE HAS RECEIVED OVER THE DECADES.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE SUFFERED A LOT MORE.

AND I HATE TO COMPARE SUFFERING.

IN TERMS OF NUMBERS AND IN TERMS OF POWER AND THE LOSS OF LANDS, PRESSURE, DISCRIMINATION, THERE'S NO COMPARISON IN ACTUAL PRACTICE AND ANYBODY WHO GOES THERE, LIKE I HAVE, AND YOU SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES, YOU CAN'T HELP BUT COME TO THAT CONCLUSION.

NOW, WHAT'S ALSO TRUE GIVEN JEWISH HISTORY, EVEN THE HISTORICAL AND UNSPEAKABLE SUFFERING THAT THE JEWISH PEOPLE, NOT JUST, OF COURSE, PRIMARILY BUT NOT JUST DURING THE GENOCIDE BUT HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THAT AND HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THAT.

IT'S KIND OF NATURAL FOR MANY JEWS TO PERCEIVE THEMSELVES AS ALWAYS BEING THERE UNDER ATTACK.

IT'S VIEWED FROM THAT LENS OF HISTORICAL PERSECUTION.

I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THAT SHOULD BE THE CASE, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE IT ACCURATE.

BECAUSE IT REMOVES FROM THE EQUATION THE PALESTINIAN EXPERIENCE THAT WE TEND NOT TO LOOK AT.

>> LET'S PROCEED THERE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, MISSY, AS A JOURNALIST, I HAVE MY OWN LENS HERE AND ONE OF THE LENSES THROUGH WHICH I'M LOOKING AT THIS IS THE FACT THAT IN ABOUT A JOURNALIST HAVE NOT BEEN PERMITTED TO GO TO GAZA DURING THIS CONFLICT BUT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE THAT THERE HAS BEEN VAST DESTRUCTION AND WE KNOW, ACCORDING TO HEALTH AUTHORITIES THERE THAT THERE HAS BEEN TREMENDOUS DEATH AND SUFFERING AND IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE ARE ON THE VERGE OF STARVATION IF THEY ARE NOT STARTING ALREADY.

THIS IS BEEN DOCUMENTED BY INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES THAT HAVE HAD ACCESS TO THAT AREA.

SO IF YOU COULD JUST DESCRIBE THAT.

I'M RECOGNIZING WHAT YOU SAID THAT THIS IS A MOMENT IN TIME BUT JUST THIS MOMENT IN TIME FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING THROUGH THAT.

>> IN THE JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY IN 2006, THERE WAS A STUDY OF PALESTINIAN KIDS.

THIS WAS BEFORE HAMAS CAME TO POWER.

LET'S BEGIN THE ASSUMPTION THAT IT ALL STARTED WHEN HAMAS TOOK TO POWER.

THIS WAS BEFORE THEY TOOK TO POWER IN GAZA.

AND 97% OF PALESTINIAN, OF GAZAN CHILDREN SHOWED SIGNS OF POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS, WE ARE TALKING 20 YEARS AGO NOW.

MANY OF THEM WHAT THEIR BEDS, I WET MY BED UNTIL I WAS 13 YEARS OF AGE AS A RESULT OF MY EXPERIENCE AS A JEWISH INFANT IN THE SECOND WAR.

UNDER THE NAZIS.

A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF PALESTINIANS OVER 20 YEARS AGO.

THEY HAD SYMPTOMS OF NIGHTMARES , EXHIBITED SYMPTOMS OF AGGRESSION TOWARDS THE PARENTS, THERE IS A STUDY OF PALESTINIAN KIDS JUST IN DECEMBER OF THIS LAST YEAR.

96% OF THEM THOUGHT THAT DEATH WAS IMMINENT.

79% SUFFERED FROM NIGHTMARES, 73% EXHIBITED SYMPTOMS OF AGGRESSION.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT WAS OBSERVED IN THIS JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY OVER 20 YEARS AGO AS AN ONLY BECOME THAT MUCH MORE EXACERBATED.

AND THAT'S THE REALITY.

AND WHAT TO SAY MARK HOW CAN I, GIVEN WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED AS A JEWISH INFANT AND SOMEONE WHO GREW UP IN HUNGARY BEFORE WE CAME TO CANADA, HOW CAN I NOT FEEL WITH THESE KIDS, HAVING SEEN WHAT THEY ARE -- HAVING SEEN HOW THEY LIVED EVEN BEFORE THIS CURRENT CONFLICT?

SINCE THE HORRENDOUS SITUATION AND WE JUST CAN'T RESTRICT OUR EMPATHY TO ONE SIDE.

AND WE ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE POWER OF RELATIONSHIPS.

ON THE ONE SIDE, ONE SIDE HAS BEEN FLICKING ON THE OTHER AND WITH GREAT PROPONENTS.

IF YOU GO TO THE WEST BANK, AS I WAS THERE 2 1/2 YEARS AGO, WORKING WITH POSTGAME WOMEN WOULD BEEN TORTURED IN ISRAEL IN JAILS, WHAT YOU HEAR ALL THE TIME IS THAT THERE'S NO POSTER MEDIC STRESS DISORDER HERE BECAUSE THE TRAUMA IS NEVER POST.

IT'S ONGOING AND SO -- IF WE ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH THIS IN A HUMANE WAY IN A HUMAN WAY IN A SCIENTIFIC WAY, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE OVERALL CONTEXT.

AND EXTEND AT LEAST AS MUCH EMPATHY TO ONE SIDE AS TO THE OTHER.

>> SO WHAT IS THE WAY FORWARD HERE, WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO, I MEAN BECAUSE THERE'S THE THE HUMAN SUFFERING AND THEN THERE'S THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT AND THEN THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT OFTEN EITHER THEY SHAPE HUMAN SUFFERING OR THEY SOMETIMES OBLITERATE OR SKEW HUMAN SUFFERING.

SO WHAT IS THE WAY FORWARD HERE.

>> FIRST OF ALL, WE NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE SUFFERING ON ALL SIDES AND THE TRAUMA ON ALL SIDES.

THE HISTORICAL TRAUMA, THAT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE ZIONIST PROJECT AND THE HISTORICAL TRAUMA THAT THE ZIONIST PROJECT HAS INFLICTED ON ME, PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AND CONTINUES TO.

WE HAVE TO KEEP PAYING MORE ATTENTION, I BELIEVE TO THOSE ISRAELIS, THE SMALL MINORITY.

IN ANY COUNTRY, AND ANY TIME, THERE'S SOMETHING VERY BEAUTIFUL ABOUT THEIR JURISDICTION.

WAS MOST BEAUTIFUL THINGS ABOUT JEWISH TRADITION IS A POETIC TRADITION AND THE PROFITS FOR PEOPLE THAT -- THE PUBLIC OPINION AND THEY DIDN'T KOWTOW TO THE LEADERS.

THEY SAID THERE'S A HIGHER VALUE.

IS A HIGHER GOD.

THERE'S A HIGHER TRUTH THEN NATIONALISM, THEN CHAUVINISM, THEN DEFERENCE TO AUTHORITY.

IT'S TO THAT HIGHER TRUTH THAT WE PAY ATTENTION TO.

AND THERE ARE PEOPLE IN ISRAEL NOW WHO ADVOCATE THAT.

BUT WE NEVER, WE RARELY HEAR THEIR VOICES IN THE WEST SO THEY NEED TO PAY MORE ATTENTION.

I THINK THE UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR THE CONTINUED SUPPRESSION OF THE PALESTINIANS, THE ATTACK ON VILLAGES IN THE WEST BANK, THAT'S GOING ON CURRENTLY EVEN AFTER THE CEASE- FIRE IN GAZA, LARGELY UNQUESTIONED ACCEPTANCE OF THE ISRAELI PERSPECTIVE NEEDS TO BE CHALLENGED I THINK THE PALESTINIANS ALSO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT THEY'VE DONE SOME HORRIBLE THINGS OR SOME HORRIBLE THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE IN THEIR NAME.

THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH THAT.

NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBLY FOR THAT.

I THINK WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN GENERAL IN HUMAN LIFE IS THAT PEOPLE TAKE RESPONSIBLY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS AND NOT JUST SEE THEMSELVES ALL THE TIME AS VICTIMS OF THE OTHER BUT TO RECOGNIZE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THEMSELVES.

>> YOUR LATEST BOOK IS THE MYTH OF NORMAL: TRAUMA, ILLNESS, AND HEALING IN A TOXIC CULTURE .

>> I WROTE THAT WITH MY SON, DANIEL, YES.

>> WHAT SHOULD WE DRAW FROM THIS IN THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> WHAT I WAS POINTING OUT NETBOOK IS THE INSEPARABILITY OF THE MIND FROM THE BODY.

UNITY OF MIND AND BODY AND HUMAN HEALTH AND ILLNESS.

WHICH ALSO MEANS THE INSEPARABILITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL FOR ME IN THE ENVIRONMENT.

BECAUSE OUR MINDS AND EMOTIONS ARE SHAPED BY OUR RELATIONSHIPS SO THAT YOU CAN SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL FROM THE CULTURE FROM THE SOCIETY, FROM THE COMMUNITY, FROM THE HISTORY.

MULTIGENERATIONAL.

SO THAT ALL KINDS OF CONDITIONS THAT ARE THOUGHT TO BE DISCRETE ILLNESSES, THEY SHOW UP AS FORMS OF DISEASE ACTUALLY RELATABLE TO PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE IN LIFE.

AND TO THE CULTURE IN WHICH THEY LIVE.

WHICH ALSO MEANS THAT THE CULTURE NEEDS TO HEAL AS MUCH AS INDIVIDUALS NEED TO HEAL AND IN THE BOOK, WE POINT OUT THE WAYS IN WHICH TRAUMA SHOWS UP IN PEOPLE'S LIVES, PERSONAL LIVES, HEALTH, MENTAL HEALTH, PHYSICAL HEALTH ADDICTIONS, OTHER AFFLICTIONS.

ALSO, IN SOCIAL AND POLITICAL LIFE.

WE ALSO POINT TO SOME PATHWAYS TOWARD HEALING.

SO ON THE WHOLE, THE BOOK HAS A POSITIVE MESSAGE BUT IT DOES HAVE TO BEGIN WITH LOOKING AT HOW THINGS ARE VERY OBJECTIVELY AND NOT SEPARATED PHENOMENA THAT CAN'T BE SEPARATED NOT SEPARATE THE MIND AND THE BODY NOT SEPARATE THE EMOTIONS FROM THE PHYSIOLOGY.

NOT SEPARATE THE INDIVIDUAL FROM THE -- NOT SEPARATE THE ENVIRONMENT FROM THE CULTURE.

AND NOT SEPARATE THE CULTURE FROM THE WHOLE UNIVERSAL WORLD THAT WE ALL SHARE.

>> BUT THIS IS WHERE I KEEP GOING BACK TO THE EXPERIENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST AND ALSO, THE EXPERIENCES THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE HAD NOW FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THEIR CULTURE IS A SOURCE OF STRENGTH.

IF THESE, IT'S A SOURCE OF STRENGTH, A SOURCE OF IDENTITY, IT'S A SOURCE OF BELONGING.

I THINK THAT'S ONE REASON WHY PEOPLE -- ENGAGED FROM THIS HISTORY THAT WE SHARE.

HOW DO YOU EXTRICATE ONE FROM THE OTHER.

>> WELL, I THINK YOU JUST UPON TOUCHED UPON A FEW QUESTIONS IN THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION.

I THINK THE TRAUMA IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED TO US.

TRAUMA IS WHAT HAPPENS INSIDE OF US IN A RESULT OF WHAT HAPPENED TO US.

LET'S SAY WE GO BACK TO THE TRAUMA OF ME BEING GIVEN BY MY MOTHER TO A STRANGER IN THE STREET, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED.

I DIDN'T SEE HER FOR SIX WEEKS IN MY LIFE WAS SAVED, THANKS TO THIS CHRISTIAN WOMAN.

WHO AND I DIDN'T SEE MY MOTHER FOR SIX WEEKS.

THAT WASN'T A TRAUMA, THAT WAS A TRAUMATIC EVENT.

THE TRAUMA WAS, THE BELIEF THAT I DEVELOPED THAT I WAS UNLOVABLE BECAUSE WHO GETS GIVEN AWAY, SOMEONE IS NOT LOVABLE.

THE TRAUMA WASN'T THAT I DIDN'T SEE MY MOTHER ALL THOSE WEEKS, THE TRAUMA WAS THAT I BEGAN TO BELIEVE IN A WORLD THAT'S NOT SAFE AND WHICH I DON'T BELONG SO THOSE TRAUMATIC -- AND TRAUMA LITERALLY MEANS WOUND.

TRAUMA IS A WOUND IT'S NOT THE WOUND -- WOUNDING EVENT, IT'S THE WOUND ITSELF.

AND IF WE CARRY THE WOUND IN THE PRESENT FROM FROM SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST, WE DON'T HAVE TO HEAL THE PAST, WE HAVE TO HEAL THE WOUND IN THE PRESENT.

AND I CAN HEAL THE WOUND OF BELIEVING THAT I'M NOT LOVABLE.

I CAN HEAL THE WOUND THAT I BELIEVE THAT I LIVE IN A WORLD THAT DOESN'T EXCITE ME OR DOESN'T LOVE ME AND WHICH I CAN'T FIND SAFETY.

I CAN HEAL THOSE WOUNDS SO THE THING ABOUT HEALING TRAUMA IS NOT TO KEEP LOOKING AT THE PAST AND NOT TO BE IDENTIFIED BY THE PAST WHO ARE WE AT THIS PRESENT MOMENT.

AS HUMAN BEINGS SO THAT THE PAST DOESN'T DEFINE US.

IT INFORMS US, IT EXPLAINS A LOT OF THINGS ABOUT US, WHAT WE ARE NOT OUR PAST.

>> DR. GABOR MATE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO SPEAK WITH YOU, AS WELL.