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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.
HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
>>> NO ONE ELSE IS UNABLE TO BRING SOMETHING TOGETHER LIKE WHAT WE SAW TODAY BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS THE ONLY LEADER IN THE WORLD WHO CAN.
KNOW WHAT HE IS BEING SIDELINED.
>> LEAVING UKRAINE WITHOUT A SEAT AT THE TABLE.
AFTER THREE LONG YEARS OF WAR, WHAT DOES THIS SPELL FOR KYIV AND EUROPE?
>>> PEOPLE WANT TO BE PART OF THEIR HOMES.
>> THE CEASE-FIRE HOLD BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL.
BUT WHAT HAPPENS THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE?
CHRISTIANE ASKS THE PRIME MINISTER.
>>> YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND YOU CAN MEAN WHAT YOU SAY BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY IT MEAN.
THAT IS ALWAYS A CHOICE.
THE >> HOW TO MAKE CHANGE WITH PEOPLE YOU WOULD RATHER CANCEL.
MICHELLE SPEAKS WITH LORETTA ROSS ABOUT HER NEW BOOK THAT IS CALLING OUT, CALLOUT CULTURE.
>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE BY ANDERSON ENDOWMENT.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION, THE VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I AM SITTING IN FACT.
>>> THREE YEARS AGO, SENIOR RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN OFFICIALS ARE MEETING TO DISCUSS WHAT COMES NEXT.
U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE, MARCO RUBIO, ME SING HIS RUSSIAN COUNTERPARTS.
RUBIO SAID WASHINGTON AND MOSCOW AGREED ON FOUR PRINCIPLES FOR TALKS TO CONTINUE.
INCLUDING APPOINTING A HIGH- LEVEL TEAM TO NEGOTIATE AND WORK THROUGH THE END OF THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE.
EMMA COMMENTS AFTER THE TALKS, THE SECRETARY OF STATE SAID HE FELT GOOD ABOUT RUSSIA'S COMMITMENT.
>> I CAME AWAY TODAY CONVINCED THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO BEGIN ENGAGING IN A SERIOUS PROCESS TO DETERMINE HOW AND HOW QUICKLY AND THROUGH WHAT MECHANISM IN AND CAN BE BROUGHT TO THIS WAR.
WHETHER WE CAN ULTIMATELY REACH THAT OUTCOME, IT WILL OBVIOUSLY DEPEND ON EVERY SIDE OF THE WILLINGNESS TO AGREE ON CERTAIN THINGS.
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE THIS MEETING BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT HAD MUCH ENGAGEMENT FOR THE RUSSIANS IN ALMOST 3 YEARS.
IT SETS THE TABLE FOR FUTURE CONVERSATIONS.
>> UKRAINE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID HIS COUNTRY WILL NOT GIVE IN TO RUSSIA'S ULTIMATUMS.
THE EXCLUSION TO KYIV AND ALLIES IS CAUSING CONCERN TO THE CONTINENT MOST IMPACTED BY THIS WAR.
HERE, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CONVINCED THEY ARE TOO EAGER TO GIVE AWAY TOO MUCH.
NICK, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS WAR SINCE DAY ONE.
UKRAINIANS HAVE LITERALLY LOST MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE HERE.
NO DOUBT THEY WANT TO SEE THE BLOODSHED AND IN THE FIGHTING COME TO AN END, AS WELL.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM THOSE RESIDENTS IN THE COUNTRY?
IT IS A LARGE CONTRIBUTE I KNOW THAT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS, BUT FOR THE MOST PART WHEN YOU HEAR THESE WORDS FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYING THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO A RUSSIAN ULTIMATUM AND THAT UKRAINE NEEDS TO BE AT THE TABLE AND PREFERABLY MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BEFORE PRESIDENT PUTIN DOES, DO THEY ALL AGREE WITH HIM?
>> Reporter: YES.
I THINK THERE IS A WIDESPREAD EXHAUSTION ABOUT THE WAR HERE.
VERY FEW PEOPLE YOU CAN TALK TO SAY THEY HAVE THE ENERGY FOR MORE LOSS.
THE SACRIFICE BEING MADE SO FAR , THERE IS SIGNIFICANT LOSS OF LIFE.
EVERY FAMILY HAS REALLY BEEN AFFECTED IN SOME WAY.
THERE MUST BE SOMETHING PEOPLE DO NOT NECESSARILY WANT TO SEE UNDER SOME FORM OF RUSSIAN OCCUPATION PROXY OR DIRECT OF ANY KIND OF PEACE STILL.
IT IS A VERY COMPLEX THREAT TO WEED FOR PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
HE HAS TO TRY TO ENERGIZE THE POPULATIONS THAT ARE EXHAUSTED TO KEEP UP THE FIGHT IN SUCH A WAY THAT DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE A SURRENDER ON THE FRONT LINE .
WHETHER THE RUSSIANS ARE ADVANCING, WE ARE SEEING NIGHTLY MASSIVE RUSSIAN JONAH TEXT 176 DRONES LAUNCHED LAST NIGHT.
THAT IS CLOSE TO A RECORD.
THAT IS TAKING A TOLL SLOWLY, AS WELL.
THE UNCERTAINTY, AS WELL.
WE SAW THAT THROUGH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
THE SLOPE DRIP OF AID, NEVER FAST ENOUGH.
TO GIVE THE EDGE THEY NEED AGAINST THE RUSSIANS AND A HOLDUP THE AID THROUGH THE BACKEND OF 2023.
UNCERTAINTY WHETHER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL GIVE THE FINANCING THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PROVIDED.
THERE COULD BE SOME KIND OF ECONOMIC DEAL THAT MAY INVOLVE UKRAINE'S MINERALS.
THERE DEFINITELY ARE CONCERNS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS.
THE EUROPEANS ARE SCRAMBLING TO SOME DEGREE TO MAKE UP FOR WHAT APPEARS TO BE A CHANGE IN AMERICAN POSITIONS.
CERTAINLY ONE ARTICULATED BY THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PETE HEGSETH.
ABOUT THE AMERICANS NOT REALLY WANTING TO BE THE GUARANTOR OF EUROPEAN SECURITY.
THAT DOES SOUND A LOT LIKE POTENTIALLY SUBBING BACK FROM PROVIDING UKRAINE SUPPORT.
U.S. POLICY IN TIMES SEEMS SHORT FOOTED AND TIMES IN FLUX.
WE HEARD TODAY FROM SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO, STEVEN WITKOFF, AND ALSO NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR MIKE WALTZ, SAYING THAT UKRAINE WOULD BE INVOLVED IN A PEACE DEAL.
ALONG WITH THE EUROPEANS, TRYING TO SOUND MORE UNIFIED IN THEIR APPROACH.
ULTIMATELY THE WIDER WORRY IS THAT WHAT WE SAW WAS A U.S./RUSSIA SUMMIT, ADDRESSING BILATERAL ISSUES BETWEEN THEM AND THE REHABILITATION OF THAT RELATIONSHIP.
UKRAINE'S SPEED STILL COME A PART OF THAT, BUT PERHAPS NOT THE FOCAL POINT FOR MANY UKRAINIANS HOPE IT WOULD BE.
ULTIMATELY THE QUALITY AND ENDURING NATURE OF THE PEACE THAT COMES OUT OF THE TALKS HAS MOST UKRAINIANS CONCERN.
I THINK THAT COMBINED WITH A RUSSIAN CONSISTENT ADVANCE TO THE FRONT LINES LEAVES PEOPLE ANXIOUS HERE.
POSSIBLY IN A WAY WE HAVE NOT SEEN SINCE THE START OF THE WAR.
IN QUICKLY, WE KNOW THAT GENERAL KELLOGG, U.S.
I INVOLVED -- ENVOY TO UKRAINE IS EXPECTED WITHIN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.
DOES THAT QUELL ANY CONCERNS ABOUT THE U.S. AND ITS SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE THROUGH THIS PROCESS?
>> Reporter: LOW, I THINK THERE DEFINITELY WILL BE RELIEF.
THE ZELENSKYY TEAM CAN SIT DOWN WITH GENERAL KELLOGG AND START TALKING ABOUT THE DETAILS OF A PLAN WHICH PRIVATELY AS A CITIZEN FOR AMERICAN THINKING, KELLOGG PUT OUT LAST YEAR, IT WAS DETAILED AND HAD CONTRADICTIONS.
IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH ARMING UKRAINE COULD RECEIVE.
YES, IT WILL BRING KYIV SOME RELIEF TO GET TO WORK ON WHAT THIS LOOKS LIKE.
TO CATCH UP ON WHAT HAS OCCURRED AND BEGIN TO WORK OUT THE FINER POINTS OF WHAT UKRAINE CAN AND CANNOT ACCEPT.
WHAT RUSSIA IS ESSENTIALLY DEMANDING.
AND WHAT AMERICA'S MEDIATION HAS BROUGHT IN THE FAST-MOVING FORTNITE BEHIND THIS.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
LET'S GET MORE ON THIS.
WHO WILL BE THE WINNERS AND LOSERS?
JORDAN ME NOW IS ANDREA TAYLOR.
YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME .
I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION TO THE IMAGES THAT WE SAW TODAY.
THE HIGH-LEVEL MEETING BETWEEN SECRETARY OF STATE, RUBIO.
THE FIRST TIME SUCH HIGH-LEVEL OFFICIALS BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES MET IN OVER THREE YEARS.
SINCE RUSSIA'S SECOND INVASION OF UKRAINE.
WE ARE APPROACHING THE ANNIVERSARY NOW.
YOUR REACTION TO THAT GIVEN THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO REAL CONCRETE FRAMEWORK THAT THEY WERE DISCUSSING HERE.
HOW UNUSUAL IS THAT?
>> IT IS UNUSUAL.
THE KEY TAKE AWAY THAT I HAD THAT IT HAS BEEN A TECTONIC SHIFT.
IT HAS BEEN U.S. POLICY FROM THE PAST THREE YEARS TO TRY TO ISOLATE RUSSIA INTO INCREASED COSTS ON RUSSIA FOR ITS INVASION OF ITS NEIGHBOR.
THE POINT OF THAT IS TO UNDERMINE RUSSIA'S ABILITY TO SUSTAIN IN RUSSIA, NOT JUST IN UKRAINE AND BEYOND UKRAINE.
TODAY, YOU HAVE A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT IS TALKING ABOUT THE NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA.
THE BIG RISK THERE FOR ME, THE RUSSIANS AND PUTIN WILL POCKET THE CONCESSIONS THAT ARE BEING MADE BY THE UNITED STATES TO STRENGTHEN ITS POSITION, NOT JUST TO SUSTAIN RUSSIAN AND UKRAINE, BUT TO SUSTAIN WHAT IT VIEWS AS A BROADER CONFRONTATION WITH EUROPE AND THE WEST.
>> THAT IS WHAT STOOD OUT TO ME, AS WELL.
WE HEARD FROM SECRETARY RUBIO WHO IS OBVIOUSLY SPEAKING FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP ARE THE TWO IN THE PAST HAD FAR DIFFERENT VIEWS ON RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA AND RUSSIA'S ROLE VIS-@-VIS UKRAINE.
THE SENATOR HAS BEEN QUITE HAWKISH.
HERE WE HEARD HIM ECHOING THE SAME COMMENTS WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HE IS CONVINCED THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS SERIOUS ABOUT COMING TO AN AGREEMENT TO END THE WAR.
WAS -- WAS SET OUT TO ME, THE FACT THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE CONCRETE FRAMEWORK FOR A PEACE DEAL.
THERE WERE OTHER ISSUES THAT WERE DISCUSSED.
IT IS ONE THING TO OPEN UP EMBASSIES MORE AND START COMMUNICATING.
IT IS QUITE ANOTHER TO TALK ABOUT FUTURE INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITIES AND PROSPECTS.
IT SEEMS LIKE THERE WERE QUITE A BIT OF CARROTS DANGLED HERE, FAR MORE THAN THE STAKES THAT ARE HOVERING OVER EUROPE RIGHT NOW.
>> A COUPLE OF POINTS, IT WAS REALLY NOTABLE FOR ME TO SEE THAT AS PART OF THIS DELEGATION IN SAUDI ARABIA FROM THE RUSSIAN SIDE, THE HEAD OF RUSSIA'S DIRECT INVESTMENT.
TO ME, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT HOW THE RUSSIANS ARE APPROACHING THIS.
THEY ARE TRYING TO WOO AND WIN OVER PRESIDENT TRUMP BY TALKING ABOUT THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES THAT MIGHT BE MADE AVAILABLE AND WHAT THEY ARE ASKING FOR IN RETURN IS A REMOVAL OF THE SANCTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN IN PLACE ON RUSSIA FOR THIS.
I ALSO THINK IT IS WORKABLE TO HEAR SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO SAY THAT HE THINKS THE RUSSIANS ARE INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATIONS.
BECAUSE AS THE CORRESPONDENT CORRESPONDING, THE ATTACKS ON UKRAINE AS NEGOTIATIONS ARE GOING ON.
THE DAY AFTER THE PUTIN/TRUMP PHONE CALL, WAS A RUSSIAN DRONE ATTACK ON CHERNOBYL NUCLEAR POWER PLANT.
THE RUSSIANS ARE SUSTAINING THE PRESSURE ON UKRAINE.
AS THEY SEE THE UNITED STATES GIVING AWAY CONCESSIONS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS SAYING, UKRAINE WON'T BE IN NATO.
THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL NOT TAKE PLACE OF PEACEKEEPING MISSIONS, WE ARE GIVING AWAY ALL OF THESE CONCESSIONS.
NOTHING IN RETURN.
WHAT DO THE RUSSIANS DO?
THEY ASK FOR MORE.
THEY'RE MOVING THE GOAL POST AND NOW THERE IS REPORTING FROM THE FINANCIAL TIMES AT THE RUSSIANS MAY BE ASKING NATO TO REMOVE TROOPS FROM THE BALTICS.
I THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE FEELING QUITE EMBOLDENED.
WHEN THEY SEE THAT WEAKNESS THEY ARE LEANING IN AND PUSHING FOR MORE.
>> AND I BELIEVE IT WAS DEFENSE SECRETARY HEGSETH WHO SAID SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF U.S.
TROOPS THAT THEY CANNOT GUARANTEE THEY WILL BE HERE FOREVER.
THAT COUPLED WITH EVERYTHING ELSE HE SAID THAT WE ARE WATCHING A FULL, IS ALARMING.
TO UKRAINE AND EUROPE.
YOU MADE THE CASE THAT PUTIN IS MORE COMMITTED THAN EVER TO THE WAR WITH UKRAINE WITH HIS BROADER CONFRONTATION WITH THE WEST.
LET'S QUOTE MORE, RUSSIA IS LIKELY TO WALK AWAY FROM THE WAR EMBOLDENED.
ONCE A RECONSTITUTED ITS MILITARY CAPACITIES, ANOTHER FIGHT TO REVISE THE SECURITY ORDER IN EUROPE.
ONCE MORE, THE KREMLIN WILL LOOK TO POCKET ANY CONCESSIONS FROM THE TRUMPET ADMINISTRATION FOR ENDING THE CURRENT WAR, SUCH AS SANCTIONS OR LIVE, TO STRENGTHEN ITS HAND FOR THE NEXT ONE.
CLEARLY PEOPLE AT THE WHITE HOUSE, THE PRESIDENT, SECRETARY OF STATE, DID NOT READ YOUR PIECE.
IT IS UNFORTUNATE WHERE THEY ARE NOT HEEDING YOUR ADVICE.
EQUALLY UNFORTUNATE, MANY WOULD AGREE.
IT ECHOES SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT YOU HAVE EXPRESSED RIGHT NOW.
YOU ARE FORESHADOWING IN THIS PIECE.
INEVITABLY THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO THAT IS UNFOLDING RIGHT NOW.
>> YEAH, I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION IS ENTIRELY MISSING THE CHANGES THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE IN RUSSIA SINCE THE INVASION.
PUTIN PUT THEIR ECONOMY ON A WARTIME FOOTING.
HE HAS TURNED UP HIS OWN PROPAGANDA AT HOME TO CONVINCE RUSSIANS THEY ARE AT WAR WITH THE WEST.
IT WANTS TO BREAK RUSSIA APART.
THEY REALLY DO SEE THE CONFRONTATION AS BEING MORE THAN UKRAINE THEY WANT TO UNDERMINE NATO.
THEY WANT TO PUSH THE UNITED STATES OUT OF EUROPE.
WHAT I REALLY FEAR IS WITH THE CONCESSIONS THAT UNITED STATES IS MAKING, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING A LOT OF PUTIN'S WORK FOR HIM.
>> AS YOU NOTED, THIS IS A DIFFERENT RUSSIA IN YOUR VIEW.
THEY ARE IN A WARTIME FOOTING.
THEY ALREADY REESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS ISOLATED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD AND ACCOMMODATED NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHER REGIMES.
THEY ARE ISOLATED IN SANCTIONS, INCLUDED NORTH KOREA AND IRAN.
YOU HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD BE ADMITTED INTO THE G8.
EVEN IF THE WAR COMES TO AN END AS IT INEVITABLY WILL, DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO READMIT RUSSIA UNDER VLADIMIR PUTIN INTO THE G8?
>> NO.
I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT THINK IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE.
IT IS THIS TYPE OF NORMALIZATION THAT TRUMP IS PURSUING THAT CARRY SIGNIFICANT RISKS.
THERE ARE IMMEDIATE CONCESSIONS THE U.S. COULD MAKE LIKE SANCTIONS, REMOVAL AND OTHER THINGS.
THEY WILL ALLOW RUSSIA TO RE- EQUIP, REARM.
I WOULD ARGUE TO EVENTUALLY RETRY UKRAINE.
ON A DIFFERENT LEVEL, A BROADER PERSPECTIVE.
THE SIGNAL TO OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE IRAN, NORTH KOREA, CHINA, IF YOU WAIT THE U.S. AND THE WEST OUT LONG ENOUGH YOU WILL BE BROUGHT BACK INTO THE FOLD.
THAT ACTION WILL EMBOLDEN ADVERSARIES ALL ACROSS THE GLOBE.
I HAVE ARGUED IN MY WORK IS THAT GETTING UKRAINE RIGHT IS THE MOST DIRECT AND IMPACTFUL WAY TO DEAL WITH THE DEEPENING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN, AND NORTH KOREA.
IF YOU HAVE UKRAINE RIGHT YOU CAN DETER CHINA.
YOU CAN ISOLATE IRAN.
IT WOULD REALLY TAKE THE WIND OUT OF THE SAILS OF THE NORTH KOREANS.
I REALLY DO WORRY THAT TRUMPS INTEREST IN ENDING THIS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE IS REALLY SETTING THE UNITED STATES AND GLOBAL SECURITY UP FOR FUTURE CHALLENGES.
>> WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS RIGHT NOW FOR RESIDENT ZELENSKYY GIVEN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN UNFOLD IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS?
I THINK THEY WERE ANTICIPATING A CHANGE IN POLICY FOR SURE UNDER A NEW ADMINISTRATION, BUT A SIDE FROM SAYING DEFIANTLY THAT HE WILL NOT SUCCUMB TO RUSSIAN ULTIMATUMS, AND WITH WHATEVER HELP EUROPE CAN MANAGE TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITHOUT A U.S. BACKSTOP, WHAT IS LEFT?
>> I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS TRYING VERY HARD TO PLAY Wii CANNED AS STRONGLY AS POSSIBLE.
HE HAS RECOGNIZED RIGHTFULLY THAT HE HAS TO AVOID ANGERING, IRRITATING, ALIENATING PRESIDENT TRUMP AT I THINK WHAT HE HAS DONE IS REALLY TRYING TO APPEAL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, TO MAKE TRUMP UNDERSTAND THAT WITHOUT U.S. SUPPORT, UKRAINE WILL BE IN A HORRIBLY WEAK POSITION.
THOSE ARE STATEMENTS THAT ZELENSKYY HIMSELF MADE.
HE IS TRYING EVERY WHICH WAY TO COME AT THIS ADMINISTRATION.
IT WAS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HIMSELF WHO RAISED THE IDEA OF GIVING THE UNITED STATES SOME OF THEIR CRITICAL MINERALS IN EXCHANGE FOR FUTURE U.S. AID.
WE HAVE SEEN THAT BEING DERAILED IN MANY WAYS.
BUT I THINK HE IS LOOKING FOR OPTIONS TO COME AND APPEAL TO THE UNITED STATES TO REMAIN INVESTED.
I DO SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEA THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE A JUST PEACE.
WE WILL NOT SEE A DURABLE SETTLEMENT IN UKRAINE WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT U.S.
PARTICIPATION.
>> RUSSIAN SPOKESPERSON SAID THAT PUTIN WILL BE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AS NECESSARY.
BUT THEN HE SAID HE MAY NOT BE, GIVEN THAT HE DESCRIBED PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AS ILLEGITIMATE.
WHY DOES HE SAY THAT?
UKRAINE HAS BEEN UNDER MARTIAL LAW SINCE THE START OF THE WAR AND THERE HAVE NOT BEEN ELECTIONS .
THE ADVOCACY IS OBVIOUS HERE COMING FROM VLADIMIR PUTIN.
BUT THE FACT THAT THERE IS CONCERN AMONG UKRAINIANS THAT THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN ELECTION, IT IS A VALID POINT.
IT IS SOMETHING THAT CHRISTIANE ASKED TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.
>> I AM READY TO SPEAK ABOUT ELECTIONS IF YOU WANT.
UKRAINE DOES NOT WANT BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID, BECAUSE OTHERWISE WE WILL LOSE MILITARY LAW, WAR LAW.
OUR SOLDIERS WILL COME BACK HOME AND PUTIN WOULD HAVE OCCUPIED ALL OF OUR TERRITORY.
IT WILL BE BECAUSE NOW WE ARE MOBILIZED.
WE ARE ONE ORGANIZATION.
WE ARE ONE COUNTRY.
THAT IS WHY IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HOLD AND TO SAVE IT.
IT DOES NOT MATTER.
IT IS NOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MYSELF.
IT IS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
IT IS ABOUT FOR TODAY, REALLY, THE QUESTION IS, TO SURVIVE.
>> WHAT YOU MAKE OF HIS RESPONSE THERE?
>> WELL, THIS ISSUE OF ELECTIONS KEEPS COMING UP.
THERE ARE RUMORS OR BITS OF INFORMATION CIRCULATING ON THE CONTOURS OF A DEAL IN UKRAINE FROM THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA CONVERSATION THAT WOULD COMPRISE A CEASE-FIRE FIRST.
ELECTIONS, THEN, A FINAL SETTLEMENT.
I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S POINT IS THAT THE ELECTIONS HAVE TO COME AFTER YOU HAVE AN END TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR UKRAINE TO HOLD ELECTIONS UNTIL YOU HAVE A DURABLE SETTLEMENT.
I THINK OFFERING IN TALKING ABOUT HOLDING ELECTIONS BEFORE YOU HAVE A SETTLEMENT PLAYS INTO EXACTLY WHAT THE RUSSIANS WANT.
IF YOU HAVE THE ELECTION BEFORE THERE IS A SETTLEMENT, RUSSIANS WILL USE EVERY TOOL LIKE THEY DID IN ROMANIA AND MOLDOVA TO TRY TO MANIPULATE THAT ELECTION TO GET A MORE COMPLIANT IN KYIV.
THE >> IS NOT JUST A HYPOTHETICAL, IT HAS BEEN DONE.
OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IN ELECTIONS.
THANK YOU, AGAIN FOR JOINING US.
>>> SAUDI ARABIA HOST THESE TALKS, IT IS POSITIONING ITSELF FOR FUTURE RESOLUTION TO THE WAR IN GAZA.
FOR NOW, A FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL IS HOLDING.
ISRAEL IS PREPARING TO THE BODY OF FOUR HOSTAGES AND HAMAS WILL RETURN SIX LIVING HOSTAGES.
SEE WYCOFF SAYS PHASE 2 OF THE TALKS ARE GOING TO BEGIN.
CONCERNS ARE RISING THAT THE ONLY INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS NOT PRESENT.
WHAT IS IT THE ROLE IN THE CRISIS AND WHAT IS IT DOING TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE?
AT THE CONFERENCE, CHRISTIANE DISCUSSED THIS WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY MINISTER MOHAMMAD MUSTAFA.
HERE IS THE CONVERSATION.
>> WELCOME.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.
>> LET'S TALK IN ORDER IF YOU LIKE.
THE CEASE-FIRE, PHASE 1 IS UNDERWAY.
THERE WERE THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE A HOOK UP WITH ITS CONTINUING ON BOTH SIDES.
DO YOU HAVE ANY NOTION OF WHETHER PHASE 2 HAS EVEN STARTED TO BE DISCUSSED?
AND WHETHER IT WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN?
>> AS YOU KNOW, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE STARTED A FEW DAYS AGO.
ACTUALLY THE 16th DAY OF THE CEASE-FIRE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE DAY WHEN THE NEXT PHASE 2 OF NEGOTIATIONS WITH STAR.
IT ACTUALLY STARTED IN A DIFFERENT VERSION OF IT IN WASHINGTON WHEN BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WAS IN WASHINGTON BUT I THINK THERE WAS SOME MEETINGS IN QATAR AND OTHER PLACES.
I THINK IT'S NOT FULLY DEVELOPED.
SOME DISCUSSIONS ARE ONGOING, HOW TO PROCEED FOR PHASE 2.
ALSO, THE FOCUS IS GETTING PHASE 1 GOING, AS WELL.
>> IN GENERAL, ARE YOU AS THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY SATISFIED WITH THE WAY THE CEASE-FIRE IS GOING?
IT OBVIOUSLY IS NOT EASY FOR ANYBODY.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
OF COURSE THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO MORE KILLING, NO MORE DISRUPTION, HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IS COMING IN, THAT IS GOOD NEWS.
BUT THIS OBVIOUSLY IS A SMALL PIECE OF THE PUZZLE AS YOU KNOW.
FIRST OF ALL, THE MOST IMMEDIATE PROBLEM FOR OUR PEOPLE IN GAZA TODAY IS TO GET SOME KIND OF TEMPORARY SHELTER.
MORE THAN 330,000 PEOPLE LOST THEIR HOMES IN THE WAR.
TO BE IN THEIR HOMES AGAIN WILL BE A BIG CHALLENGE, IT WILL TAKE TIME BUT WE NEED TO BRING TENTS, CARAVANS, WHATEVER, SO WE CAN HAVE TEMPORARY SHELTER FOR THEM.
UNTIL NOW, ISRAEL DID NOT ALLOW THIS.
WE HOPE THAT THEY WILL HOLD THE AGREEMENT AND ALLOW THE TEMPORARY SHELTER TO COME AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
>> YOU OBVIOUSLY BRING ME TO THE CONTROVERSIAL POINT OF, YES, THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE, THE DEMOLITIONS OF GAZA AND WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID DURING THE WHITE HOUSE MEETING WITH BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.
HE HAS DOUBLED DOWN.
HE HAS NOT CHANGED WHAT HE MEANT.
WE WILL TAKE GAZA, WE WILL OWN IT, WE WILL LOVE IT AND REBUILD IT.
IT WILL BE THE RIVIERA OF THE MIDDLE EAST.
SINCE WE HAVE NOT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO YOU AND THE RECOGNIZE THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THAT?
>> VERY SIMPLE, OUR PEOPLE ARE DETERRED -- DETERMINED TO STAY IN THEIR HOMES.
NOBODY WANTS TO LEAVE HIS HOME OR HER HOME.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO OUR BEST TO REBUILD GAZA AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
IT IS A HUGE TASK.
WE THINK THAT IN THREE YEARS WE WILL BE ABLE TO BRING GAZA BACK TO A SITUATION WHERE IT IS GOOD AND LIVABLE.
MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE ALYSSA >> THAT IS VERY OPTIMISTIC.
WE HEARD UN AND OTHERS SAY IT COULD TAKE 15 YEARS JUST TO CLEAR THE RUBBLE AND REBUILD.
>> WE ARE MUCH MORE HOPEFUL THAN THE UN.
>> BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SAID DURING HIS U.S. VISIT, THE PALESTINIANS WHO LEAVE GAZA DURING REBUILDING CAN COME BACK IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.
HE SAID THE ACTUAL IDEA OF ALLOWING GAZANS WHO WANT TO LEAVE TO LEAVE, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?
THEY CAN LEAVE AND COME BACK.
DO YOU BELIEVE HIM?
>> UNFORTUNATELY OUR EXPERIENCE WITH LEAVING AS A VERY BAD ONE.
OUR FAMILY LEFT IN 1948.
THEY STILL ARE NOT ABLE TO GO BACK.
WE HAVE A VERY BAD EXPERIENCE OF LIVING.
WE DO NOT WANT TO ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF LEAVING.
WE WANT TO FOCUS ON MAKING THINGS POSSIBLE FOR OUR PEOPLE TO CONTINUE TO ENJOY A REASONABLE LIFE.
TO LIVE IN THE COUNTRY WITH DIGNITY.
THAT TAKES ME TO THE MAIN ISSUE OF WHY IT'S HAPPENING.
WHILE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LEAVING AND BUILDING AND CEASE- FIRES AND WE HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT WHY THIS IS CONTINUING TO HAPPEN DESPITE 77 YEARS SINCE ISRAEL WAS ESTABLISHED AND PALESTINE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ESTABLISHED.
TODAY WE CONTINUE TO WORK VERY HARD WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND PARTNERS IN THE REGION TO GET PALESTINIANS THEIR RIGHTS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
THIS IS THE ANSWER.
>> BECAUSE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND WHAT HE SAID PUBLICLY, MANY FEEL EMPOWERED ON THE RIGHT WING IN ISRAEL.
PARTICULARLY THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT A PALESTINIAN STATE.
THEY SAY THAT THIS IS THE TIME TO VARY THE NOTION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, EVEN ONE OF THE FAR RIGHT MINISTERS WHO IS IN THE COALITION SAYS THAT THIS IS THE YEAR OF ISRAELI ANNEXATION.
THE WEST BANK, HE IS TALKING ABOUT.
>> IS THERE ANYTHING TO STOP THAT?
PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF SAID HE WILL DELIVER HIS OPINION ON ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK.
IN THE NEXT SEVERAL WEEKS, MAYBE DURING HIS STATE OF THE UNION?
>> ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT ANNEXATION IS GOING TO BE A DISASTER FOR EVERYONE.
WILL NOT HELP ISRAELIS OR PALESTINIANS.
IT WILL NOT HELP THE REGION.
I THINK THE REGION HAS SEEN THE RESULT OF THE CONTINUATION OF WARS OVER THE YEARS.
ANNEXATION IS A DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.
IT WILL BRING MORE FIGHTING.
IT WILL BRING LOTS OF LOSS OF LIFE.
THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT FOR OUR KIDS OR OUR REGION.
WE WANT PEACE.
WE EXTEND OUR HAND FOR PEACE.
WE INVITE EVERYONE TO FOCUS ON IMPLEMENTING A TWO STATE SOLUTION THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AGREES TO.
WE THINK THAT IS THE ANSWER TO ALL THE PROBLEMS.
>> DO YOU THINK IS STILL HAS LEGS??
I THINK SO, YES.
WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE?
FOR US, TO HAVE OUR OWN INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN STATE IS GOOD ENOUGH.
WE DO NOT WANT ANYTHING ELSE.
>> THERE IS NO LOVE LOST BETWEEN YOU, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND HAMAS.
RIGHT NOW HAMAS APPEARS STILL TO BE IN CHARGE IN GAZA.
THEY DEMONSTRATE THAT EVERY WEEK WITH THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES.
THEY ARE NOW ACTUALLY FACILITATING CERTAIN SECURITY OPERATIONS, POLICING OPERATIONS.
GUARDING HUMANITARIAN DELIVERIES.
WE SEE THEM, THEY MAKE A DETERMINED EFFORT TO BE SEEN BY THE WORLD.
IT APPEARS THAT YOU ALSO ARE WORKING ON SOME OF THE CROSSINGS.
WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE?
HOW CAN ANY TWO STATE SOLUTION, ONE THAT IS FAIR AND SOVEREIGN FOR THE PALESTINIANS AND FAIR AND SECURE FOR THE ISRAELIS HAPPEN?
HOW CAN IT HAPPEN IF HAMAS IS STILL IN CHARGE?
HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT CIRCLE?
>> SIMPLY, HAMAS SHOULD NOT BE IN CHARGE.
PER HEAD.
THIS WAS A TIME WHEN HAMAS TOOK OVER GOVERNANCE OF GAZA.
IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
GAZA IS IN THE STATE OF PALESTINE.
THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.
ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, THE RESOLUTIONS AND AGREEMENTS, EVERYTHING TALKS ABOUT PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IN THE FUTURE.
THE FACT THAT HAMAS -CONTROLLED GAZA IN THE PAST WAS SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY AND I THINK IT SHOULD END.
>> HOW?
MAGICALLY, HOW?
>> I THINK WE WILL HAVE TO CONVINCE THEM THAT IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON AND DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE INTEREST OF OUR PEOPLE.
I THINK THAT GAZA NEEDS TO BE REBUILT.
OUR PEOPLE IN GAZA NEED A BETTER LIFE.
THE SEPARATION BETWEEN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK IS NOT HELPING PALESTINIANS.
WE KNOW THAT RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA WILL NOT HAPPEN WITHOUT PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY COMING IN, POTENTIALLY REBUILDING AND REINTEGRATING SOLUTIONS AND MOVING FORWARD.
IF WE DO NOT DO THE RIGHT THINGS AS PALESTINIANS, WE WILL LOSE OPPORTUNITY TO REBUILD GAZA AND HAVE OUR OWN INDEPENDENT SAY.
I THINK WITH THE DIALOGUE, WITH HOPEFULLY THE SUPPORT FROM OUR ORIGINAL PARTNERS, THIS WILL HOPEFULLY CONVINCE HAMAS TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND ALLOW THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT TO GO IN THERE AND SERVE OUR PEOPLE.
>> SOME OF THE POLITICAL WING OF HAMAS SPEAK IN FORMS WITH ZOOM CONFERENCES OR WHATEVER.
RECENTLY I HEARD ONE OF THEM SAYING THAT ON NO ACCOUNT THERE WILL BE ANY INTERNATIONAL, EVEN ARAB PEACEKEEPERS, TO MAINTAIN AND ENFORCE ANY PIECE IF THERE IS A FINAL P STILL.
B, IT CANNOT JUST BE PA.
IT HAS TO BE A GROUP OF AS THEY CALLED IT, PALESTINIAN TECHNOCRATS.
AN INTERIM GOVERNMENT AND TO HAVE ELECTIONS, YOUR BOSS, HAS NOT HAD AN ELECTION SINCE 2006.
AGAIN, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE, A TECHNOCRATIC PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT?
ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE ELECTIONS?
>> I AM A TECHNOCRAT, NOT PART OF ANY POLITICAL PARTY.
AS EVERY MINISTER IN MY CABINET.
THE GOOD NEWS, THE POLITICAL PARTIES IN THE WEST BANK ACCEPTED TO GIVE US THE OPPORTUNITY TO GOVERN, TO MANAGE TO ADMINISTER THINGS.
WE EXPECT FROM OUR BROTHERS IN GAZA.
I THINK THE TIME WILL COME WHEN ALL THE PARTIES WILL HAVE TO FIND OUT, WE HAVE TO AGREE, THIS IS THE WAY FORWARD.
>> I READ THAT YOUR PRESIDENT HAS ISSUED A DECREE THIS PAST WEEK ON THE VERY KEY ISSUE THAT IS BEING CONDEMNED BY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL FOR THE LAST SEVERAL, MANY YEARS.
THAT IS THE ISSUE OF PAYMENTS TO THE FAMILIES OF PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN JAILED FOR KILLED BY ISRAEL.
EVEN PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OR CONVICTED OF VIOLENT CRIMES.
USED TO DO THAT TO THE TUNES OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OVER MANY, MANY YEARS.
NOW IT APPEARS THAT THIS MAY END OR YOU MAY BRING THAT IN ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN PRESIDENTS RECENT DECREE.
IS THAT TRUE?
IS IT IN ORDER?
TO SHOW GOOD FAITH FOR THE SHOW PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT -- BECAUSE HE CUT OFF AID BECAUSE OF THIS TO YOU BACK IN HIS FIRST TERM.
>> I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS RESPECT, SOME PEOPLE WANTED TO WHAT THERE WAS DONE IN THE PAST.
THEY SAID IT WAS A WAY TO REWARD TERRORISM.
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A WAY TO PROTECT THE FAMILIES OF PEOPLE IN PRISON OR KILL.
THIS IS A SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM THAT EXISTS IN EVERY COUNTRY INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, FOR THAT MATTER.
WHAT WAS BASICALLY DONE, TO REUNITE THE LAW SO IT WOULD BE GRATIFIED.
PROTECTION FOR FAMILIES THAT NEED ASSISTANCE WILL CONTINUE TO BE PROVIDED.
THIS SHOULD NOT BE DONE IN A WAY THAT WOULD BE MISUNDERSTOOD AND USED BY SOME PARTIES TO BE USED AGAINST US.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
>> HOW WILL YOU DO IT THEN?
>> SOCIAL BASED, NEEDS-BASED, SOCIAL PROTECTION IS >> NOT JUST AUTOMATIC PAYMENTS TO THE JAILED AND KILLED FAMILIES?
>> I THINK WHAT THEY MADE IN THE PAST HAS TO DO WITH THE NUMBER OF YEARS SPENT IN JAIL.
NOW THIS WILL NOT BE THE CRITERIA.
THE CRITERIA WILL BE NEEDS.
FAMILY NEEDS FIRST, CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT IT IS AS MUCH ABOUT SELF-INTEREST AS ANYTHING ELSE?
YOU WANT YOUR FUNDS RESTORED BY THE U.S.
THEY CUT THEM OFF.
ISRAEL REGULARLY HOLDS BACK YOUR TAXES.
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
>> MORE THAN HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS.
IT'S ABOUT $2 BILLION.
>> OVER HOW MANY YEARS?
EYE OVER THE LAST 13 YEARS OR SO.
IT IS SERIOUS MONEY FOR US.
WE NEED IT BADLY.
HOPEFULLY THIS WILL ENABLE US TO UNLOCK THIS MONEY, WHICH WE BADLY NEED.
>> THIS MIGHT SOUND LIKE AN OFF- THE-WALL QUESTION, BUT DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY TIME THAT YOU AND THE CURRENT ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER -- YOU ARE THE PRIME MINISTER, WILL YOU MEET?
IS THERE ANY OPPORTUNITY OR OCCASION FOR THE PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER'S TO MEET?
STOMACH THE PROBLEM IS NOT MEETING.
WE USED TO MEET A LOT.
>> I KNOW.
I AM ASKING CAN YOU GET BACK TO THAT?
IN THE PROBLEM, WHAT TO TALK ABOUT?
>> THIS.
>> THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS NOT THERE YET.
WE HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR MANY YEARS NOW TO REENGAGE TO RESUME THE PEACE PROCESS.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TWO STATE SOLUTION.
LET'S IMPLEMENT WHAT WAS AGREED IN OSLO.
THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THE CURRENT ONE, DOES NOT SEEM TO BE INTERESTED.
I HOPE THIS WILL CHANGE.
WE REMAIN TO BE COMMITTED TO PEACE IN THE REGION.
WE WANT TO ENGAGE WHEN WE BELIEVE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT -- >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>>> WHILE THE U.S. IS STOKING DIVISION ON THE WORLD STAGE, AND ATMOSPHERE OF HOSTILITY IS BEING FELT WITHIN THE COUNTRY.
THE FEDERAL AGENCIES SHOT DOWN AND LAYOFFS TO THE SLEW OF POLARIZING EXECUTIVE ORDERS.
MANY AMERICANS FEEL AT THE MERCY OF THE TRUMP LEADERSHIP.
HOW CAN WE FOSTER PRODUCTIVE DIALOGUE AT THIS TIME?
LONGTIME HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, LORETTA ROSS, PROVIDES AUDIT -- ANSWERS.
SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS., THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.
>> YOU ARE A VERY WELL KNOWN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.
YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WORK FOR FOUR DECADES NOW.
I WANT TO READ HOW YOU START YOUR LATEST BOOK.
IT IS CALLED, CALLING IN.
YOU SAY, I AM A REFORMED CALLOUT QUEEN.
I FIERCELY CALLED OUT ENEMIES.
I'VE RIGHTEOUSLY CALLED OUT FRIENDS.
I HAVE GLEEFULLY CALLED OUT STRANGERS.
I EVEN ONCE CALLED OUT PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, ALTHOUGH THAT IS A STORY FOR ANOTHER TIME.
MY EGO GETS THE APPEAL TO PUT PEOPLE ON BLAST.
I HAVE REALIZED A LONG TIME AGO THAT RUNNING MY MOUTH NEVER DID SEEM TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT I WANTED IT TO.
OKAY, WOW.
WHAT A WAY TO START.
>> IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.
I HAVE A TENDENCY TO SPEAK FIRST AND REGRET LATER.
I AM ALWAYS HAVING TO CALL MYSELF IN FIRST SO THAT I DO NOT SUCCUMB TO THAT TENDENCY AND GIVE MYSELF A CHANCE FOR MY INTELLIGENCE AND INTEGRITY TO MAKE THE IMPACT THAT I WANTED TO HAVE.
>> AN INTERESTING THING ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK, CALLING IN, HOW TO START MAKING CHANGE WITH THOSE HE WOULD RATHER CANCEL.
YOU RECOUNT A NUMBER OF MOVEMENTS AND ROOMS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN WHERE IS STARTED TO FEEL VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.
YOU FELT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE ON THE SAME SIDE EXPENDED A LOT OF ENERGY REGULATING EACH OTHER AND APPLYING PURITY TESTS TO EACH OTHER THAT CONSUMES SO MUCH ENERGY, THE OVERALL OBJECTIVE WAS LOST.
>> IT AFFECTED NATIONAL POLITICS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
WHEN PRESIDENT CARTER OFFERED THE D.C.
RESIDENTS A CHANCE TO GET A REPRESENTATIVE.
THE STATEHOOD MOVEMENT WAS SO BUSY CALLING EACH OTHER OUT THAT WE FAILED TO AVAIL OURSELVES OF THE OPPORTUNITY THAT PRESIDENT CARTER HAD.
BECAUSE PRESIDENT CARTER DID NOT OFFER FULL STATEHOOD BECAUSE HE COULDN'T.
NATIONAL POLITICS COULD HAVE CHANGED IF D.C. HAD THE CHANCE TO SEND TWO REPRESENTATIVES TO CONGRESS.
THE WHOLE BALANCE OF POLITICS COULD HAVE CHANGED BUT WE SABOTAGE OURSELVES WITH CALLOUT CULTURE IN THE 1970s.
THAT WAS A SIGNIFICANT MOMENT BECAUSE THE MOMENT WAS QUICKLY LOST WHEN IN 1980 RONALD REAGAN WAS ELECTED AND THERE WAS NO CHANCE TO GET VOTING REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS.
THERE HAS NOT BEEN A CHANCE SINCE THEN.
>> YOU HAVE BEEN TEACHING A CLASS FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, WHICH IS A REASON WHY YOU CAME TO PUBLIC ATTENTION.
YOU HAVE SEEN THE PRINCIPLES IN PRACTICE.
HOW DO THE COURSE COME ABOUT?
HOW DID THE IDEA COME ABOUT?
>> I STARTED NOTICING THE CALLOUT CULTURE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
I ASKED YOUNG PEOPLE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEY TOLD ME THAT THERE WAS NOTHING THAT COULD BE DONE ABOUT IT.
I DID NOT AGREE WITH THAT RESIGNATION.
I STARTED REVIEWING HOW I TAUGHT BLACK FEMINISTS, HOW I DEPROGRAMMED WHITE SUPREMACIST FROM THE CLAN MOVEMENT AND I REALIZED I HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS FROM PEOPLE I HAVE WOULD NOT BRING HOME FROM COFFEE.
I HAD A CAREER OF HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE I WOULD RATHER CANCEL.
SO I THOUGHT THAT TELLING MY STORY AND OFFERING THE LESSONS FOR MY HISTORY, ALSO FROM PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHER HISTORIANS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS, IT WOULD OFFER YOUNG PEOPLE A WAY TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS THAT ALLOW THEM TO NOT ONLY SIT IN DISCOMFORT, BUT TO SEE HOW MUCH THEY COULD GROW FROM THAT DISCOMFORT.
TO NOT BE AFRAID TO PUT SOMETHING OUT THERE ON TWITTER OR FACEBOOK THAT HAUNTS THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.
BUT TO OWN YOUR MISTAKES AND ACTUALLY FIGURE IDEAS OF STRENGTH.
DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES.
BE AFRAID OF NOT BEING ADULT ENOUGH TO ADMIT THAT YOU MADE MISTAKES.
>> YOU HAVE BEEN DOING SOCIAL JUSTICE WORK FOR FOUR DECADES NOW.
REALLY MORE THAN THAT.
SOCIAL MEDIA WAS NOT A FACTOR WHEN YOU FIRST GOT STARTED.
HOW BIG OF A FACTOR DO YOU THINK SOCIAL MEDIA IS IN CONTRIBUTING TO A CALLOUT CULTURE, WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL A CALLOUT CULTURE?
STOMACH I DO NOT KNOW THAT I BLAME SOCIAL MEDIA FOR?
YOU CALL SOMEBODY, YOU PUBLICLY SHAME THEM AND GIVE THEM CONSEQUENCES FOR SOMETHING YOU THINK THEY HAVE DONE WRONG.
I REMEMBER HOW ENRAPTURED MY MOTHER'S GENERATION -- MY MOTHER WAS BORN IN 1922, BY SOAP OPERAS.
SO MANY HOUSEWIVES AND WOMEN AND PROBABLY MEN, TOO, SOAP OPERAS HAD SOCIAL DRAMAS.
WE JUST HAVE BETTER TOYS FOR THE SAME HUMAN EMOTIONS OF REGRET AND SHAME, BLAMING, ANGER, FEAR, I DO NOT KNOW THAT I WILL BLAME THE TOYS BUT THE LACK OF HEALING AS A SOCIETY.
A LACK OF HAVING ADEQUATE HEALING FOR PEOPLE'S DRAMA.
EVERY ADDICTION, SOCIAL MEDIA, DRUGS, CIGARETTES, WHATEVER, IS BORN OUT OF TRAUMA AND UNHEALED EMOTIONS.
THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD FOCUS ON IN MY OPINION.
RATHER THAN THINK WE CAN POLICE SOCIAL MEDIA TO KEEP US FROM OURSELVES.
>> AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK YOU TALKED ABOUT THE EXTREMELY POWERFUL, AND I HAVE TO SAY A CHALLENGING EXPERIENCING.
YOU ARE A SURVIVOR OF AND INCEST.
YOU HAVE BEEN VERY OPEN ABOUT THAT.
YOU WERE WORKING AT A RATE CRISIS CENTER.
YOU WERE APPROACHED BY AN INCARCERATED .
A MAN ACKNOWLEDGED TO RATE WOMEN ON THE OUTSIDE AND MEN ON THE INSIDE.
YOU GOT A LETTER FROM HIM WHERE HE ASKED YOU TO HELP.
CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?
ALL THAT FLOWED FROM THAT.
I START THERE, NOT BECAUSE YOU STARTED THERE, BUT I FEEL THAT IF THERE IS ANYBODY THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO NOT ENGAGE WITH, IT WOULD BE THAT PERSON.
>> I WANTED TO ENGAGE WITH HIM, I WANTED TO COST THEM OUT.
I COULD NEVER HOLD THE VIOLATORS ACCOUNTABLE.
IF YOU'RE HAVING A MOMENT IN LIFE IT IS YOUR FAULT.
WHEN I WENT THERE AND THOSE PRISONERS STARTED SHARING STORIES OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AND HOW THEY HAD BEEN TURNED FROM VICTIMS, INTO VIOLATORS, I COULD NOT MAINTAIN THAT RAGE AT THEM ANYMORE.
WE WERE FELLOW SURVIVORS TRYING TO NAVIGATE OUR OWN HUMAN DIGNITY IN THE MOST AWFUL CIRCUMSTANCES.
ME ON THE OUTSIDE, THEM ON THE INSIDE.
I DESCRIBED THAT AS MY FIRST CALLING IN MOMENT.
WHEN I CALLED MY OWN SELF IN.
I HAD TO CALL MY CONTENT IN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED.
SO I COULD SEE THEM AS HUMAN BEINGS AND THEY COULD STOP SEEING ME AND WOMEN LIKE ME AS PREY.
I AM PROUD OF THE FACT THAT HE DID NOT AND JOLT -- INDULGENT TO COST THEM OUT.
INSTEAD THEY CALLED ME IN.
EVERYTHING I WRITE IN THE BOOK EMANATES FROM THAT MOMENT.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT IS THE NEED TO ALIGN YOUR FEELINGS WITH YOUR INTEGRITY.
CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT, WHAT IT MEANS AND WHY THAT MATTERS?
>> AS A SURVIVAL OF RACIAL AND SEXUAL TRAUMA, I FIND WHEN I GIVE INTO THE FIRST IMPULSE TO BLURT WHATEVER IS COMING OUT, THEY FIRST IMPULSE, THAT USUALLY IS A REACTION BECAUSE OF MY TRAUMA AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN THROUGH.
BUT I FIND THAT IF I PUT MYSELF ON PAUSE, AND GIVE A CHANCE FOR MY INTELLIGENCE AND INTEGRITY TO TAKE THE WHEEL, THEN I BECOME TRAUMA INFORMED INSTEAD OF TRAUMA DRIVEN.
EVERYBODY WHO HAS EVER PARENTED A CHILD KNOWS THAT PAUSE.
IF YOU BLURT OUT THE FIRST THING THAT OCCURS TO YOU WHEN YOUR CHILDREN ARE GETTING ON YOUR NERVES, THEY WILL BE IN THERAPY FOR LIFE.
INSTINCTIVELY WE KNOW TO PUT OURSELVES ON PAUSE SO OUR INTELLIGENCE AND COMPASSION AND INTEGRITY CAN BE SHOWN TO OUR CHILDREN.
I WANT US TO USE THAT SAME DISCIPLINE THAT EVERYBODY WE ENCOUNTER, ESPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BRING OUT THE WORST IN US -- WE HAVE A CHOICE AND YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND YOU CAN MEAN WHAT YOU SAY.
BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY IT MEAN.
THAT IS ALWAYS A CHOICE.
THAT PAUSE GIVES YOU A CHANCE NOT TO BE MEAN.
>> YOUR BOOK ARRIVES AT SUCH AN INTERESTING MOMENT.
BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATIONS THAT CALL PEOPLE OUT EVERY DAY.
THEY SEEM UNINTERESTED IN THE FEELINGS FOR SENSIBILITIES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THEM.
THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE, THEY MIGHT ARGUE HALF THE COUNTRY THAT FEEL VERY MUCH ASSAULTED BY THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTRY.
SPECIFIC EXECUTIVE ORDERS AIMED AT TRANSGENDER ATHLETES, FOR EXAMPLE.
FEDERAL EMPLOYEES IN MANY DEPARTMENTS HAVE BEEN MALIGNED AS FRAUDSTERS.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE ON THE RECEIVING END OF ABUSE RIGHT NOW FROM THE NATIONAL LEADERSHIP?
HOW SHOULD THEY RECEIVE YOUR WORDS?
>> I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE IN A COUNTRY WHERE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT TO BE BULLIED.
THAT THEY WANT TO BE JERKS TO OTHER PEOPLE.
I THINK WE HAVE VISIBILITY OF THE JERKS OF OUR POPULATION.
THEY GIVE IT LIFE.
THEY GET ATTENTION.
THEY HAVE CHEAPENED THE CONCEPT OF EMPATHY AND COMPASSION.
EVEN MORALISM.
WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE TO GET ALONG WITH EACH OTHER.
THEY ARE TRYING TO SEE IF THEY COULD WIN THE CIVIL WAR AGAIN.
I DO NOT THINK THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC EVEN THOSE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.
I THINK MAJORITY OF THEM ARE BEING MANIPULATED, LIED TO AND MISLED.
I AM WILLING TO GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.
PROBABLY A LOT OF THEM ARE KIND PEOPLE TO THEIR ANIMALS, TO THEIR PETS, TO THEIR CHILDREN.
TO THEIR NEIGHBORS.
JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE A LEADER WHO HAS MADE A CAREER OUT OF BEING CONTEMPTUOUS TO PEOPLE, I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
THAT IS THE MOST ATTENTION RIGHT NOW, BUT THAT -- LET'S TRY TO DO A MORE SOPHISTICATED ANALYSIS OF WHAT IS GOING ON AND NOT ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU OR VOTES FOR THE OTHER SIDE, THAT IT MAKES THEM YOUR ENEMY PAD >> I GET THE FEELING THAT YOUR BOOK IS AIMED MAINLY AT PROGRESSES.
BECAUSE THERE IS KIND OF A DIALOGUE NOW THAT LOOKS AT THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT AND SAY IT IS LIBERALS FAULT BECAUSE THEY TOOK CANCEL CULTURE TOO FAR AND THIS IS WHAT THEY INVITED.
THIS IS THE BACKLASH TO THAT.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT??
I'M NOT AWARE OF LIBERALS THAT BANNED BOOKS FROM LIBRARIES, FIRED PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO TEACH THE REALITY OF MY HISTORY, OR DEMANDED THAT PEOPLE FROM THEIR OWN PARTY BE KICKED OUT BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SUPPORT THE TRUMP CULTS.
I DO SEE A LOT OF THAT POWER BEING MISUSED ON THE RIGHT, THEN THE LEFT.
IT IS JUST HUMAN BEINGS TO WANT TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS YOU THINK THEY HAVE DONE WRONG.
BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THE CANCEL CULTURE IS NOT THE RICH AND POWERFUL THAT GETS CANCELED.
THEY LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.
TRUMP USED THE CANCEL OUTRAGE TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
IT IS THE VULNERABLE PEOPLE WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS, WHO LOSE THEIR REPUTATIONS, WHO CANNOT FACE UP TO THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD FOR FEAR THAT THEY WILL BE WHISPERING ABOUT, YOU KNOW THAT PERSON, HE USED THE WRONG GENDER PRONOUN.
OR THAT SHE USED THE WRONG THING.
THAT KIND OF THING.
IF THE CANCELLATION IMPULSE IS ONLY AFFECTING THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE, HOW MUCH OF AN EFFECT OF THE -- IT DOESN'T REALLY WORK THAT WELL.
THEY GET AWAY WITH A LOT.
AS I SAID, THEY CAN USE OUTRAGE ALL THE WAY TO POWER AND THE BANK.
WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT IF CANCELING PEOPLE IS THE BEST TOOL FOR THE JOB?
THE HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WE SHAME INDIVIDUALS, CORPORATIONS AND GOVERNMENT FURTHER VIOLATIONS OF PEOPLE'S HUMAN RIGHTS.
THAT IS NOT ATTACKED OF A FIRST RESORT, BUT OF LAST RESORT.
BECAUSE WE TRY TALKING TO THEM FIRST OR WE FIND OTHER EFFECTIVE MESSENGERS TO TALK TO THEM.
>> IS THE EVER NOT APPROPRIATE TO CALL PEOPLE IN?
ARE THERE TIMES WHEN CALLING IN SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN YOUR OPINION?
>> I HAVE A DIFFERENT STRATEGY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MEAN ON PURPOSE.
I CALLED THEM UNAPOLOGETIC RACIST AND FASCIST.
I TEACH AT MY COLLEGE HOW TO DEAL WITH THE RISE OF FASCISM.
PEOPLE ARE INTENTIONAL.
I THINK THAT IS A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION AND I'M NOT TRYING TO CALL THEM IN.
I'M TRYING TO OVERPOWER THEM WITH PEOPLE OF GOODWILL WHO ARE TRYING TO BE THE CULTURE OF CONTENT AND MEANNESS AND LIES AND VIOLENCE THAT IS BEING IMPOSED UPON US.
I'M NOT TRYING TO CALL IN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INTENTIONALLY HARMFUL.
I WANT TO CALL IN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING MANIPULATED AND BEING HARMED BY THE MALICIOUS PEOPLE WHO ARE USING THIS AS A WAY TO POWER.
>> HOW DO PEOPLE START CALLING PEOPLE IN AND STOP CALLING PEOPLE OUT?
WHAT ARE SOME PRINCIPLES TO LEAVE US WITH?
>> LET ME TELL A STORY OF THE BLIND WOMAN IN MY ONLINE CLASSES.
I TEACH THIS STUFF ONLINE.
SHE SAID THAT EVERY TIME I HAVE TO GO UP A STEP AND INTO A DOOR, AND ARM COMES UP ON MY BODY.
IT ALWAYS FEELS LIKE A SECULAR THOUGHT TO ME SO I GO BALLISTIC AND CURSE PEOPLE OUT.
WHAT CAN I DO DIFFERENTLY?
I ASKED HER TO REENTER AND THINK OF IT AS A KIND OF -- THANK THEM FOR THE KINDNESS.
SET YOUR BOUNDARY AND SAY THAT I DO NOT LIKE STRANGE HANDS COMING ON ME THAT I DO NOT SEE COMING.
THE THIRD STEP IS TO SAY IF YOU WANT TO HELP SOMEONE WHO IS BLIND OR DISABLED, WHY DON'T YOU STOP AND ASKED THEM HOW THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE HELPED FIRST?
ONE, TWO, THREE, TURN A CALLOUT INTO A CALL IN.
THE FIRST PERSON YOU CALL IN IS YOURSELF.
WE WANT PEOPLE TO DO MORE KINDNESS, NOT LESS.
IF YOU CURSE THEM OUT FOR TRYING TO BE KIND, THEY WILL NOT DO IT ANYMORE.
YOU NEED YOUR BOUNDARIES ALSO.
THIRD, YOU CAN OFFER YOUR VULNERABILITY AS A WAY TO CREATE GOOD CHANGE IN THE FUTURE.
>> HOW WOULD YOU RECOMMEND PEOPLE THAT DISAGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP RESPOND TO HIM AND HIS INITIATIVES?
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS A DIFFERENT ENTITY.
I HAVE US TRAGEDY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP BUT IT DOES NOT INVOLVE CALLING HIM IN.
THE PEOPLE BEING MANIPULATED AND HARMED BY HIM AND PARTICULARLY THE ONES WHO VOTED FOR HIM, I STILL WANT TO ASK THEM WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU IN YOUR LIFE?
I'M NOT HERE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION TO CRITICIZE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE WRONG.
I WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT YOU.
HOW WE CAN BUILD ON THAT MORE.
YOU HEAR WHAT ALL THE TIME ABOUT HOW WRONG YOU ARE.
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW YOUR BELIEF IN THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY IS A GOOD THING.
CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW WE CAN BUILD THAT FUTURE TOGETHER WITHOUT DEMONIZING EACH OTHER?
LORETTA ROSS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.
>>> THAT IS A FOR OUR PROGRAM.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EACH NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.