February 28, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> IT'S NOT JUST A DEPARTURE FROM WHERE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THAT IT IS A STARK DEPARTURE FROM THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>>> LOOKING AT THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.

MARK SURE HAS BEEN IN THE ROOM.

I SPEAK TO THE FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF AND FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

>>> KYOTO, LONDON'S HOTTEST NEW PLAY.

HOW COWRITER JOE MURPHY AND STAR STEPHEN CONCORDE TURNED THE CLIMATE TALKS INTO A MUST-SEE THRILLER.

>>> AS TRANS-AMERICANS SEE THEIR RIGHTS ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK, HARI SREENIVASAN ASKS THE SCL YOU WHY THESE AMERICANS ARE BEING TARGETED.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM , MARK J. BLECHNER, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FIVE WEEKS SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND INAUGURATION YET IT SEEMS LIKE A WHOLE YEARS WORTH OR MORE OF UPENDING THE VERY BEDROCK OF AMERICAN POLITICS AT HOME AND ABROAD.

THIS WEEK ALONE HE CONSIDERS A TOTAL REALIGNMENT AWAY FROM ALLIES TOWARDS ITS ADVERSARIES.

HE HAS DEMONSTRATED CLEARLY BY HIS U.N. VOTE, HIS TRANSACTION APPROACH TO PARTNERS.

EVEN THOSE THAT WERE LIKE UKRAINE.

AT HOME WHETHER IT IS FLOODING THE ZONE, GIVING EXTRAORDINARY POWERS TO ELON MUSK WHO IS NOT EVEN A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, TESTING THE LIMITS OF HIS OWN PRESIDENTIAL POWER WITH CABINET SECRETARIES WHO ARE MOSTLY SAID TO BE CHOSEN FOR THEIR UTTER LOYALTY.

THIS MUCH IS CLEAR, IT IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT AMERICA.

BUT FOR HOW LONG?

ACROSS THE COUNTRY REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE STARTING TO GET AN EAR FULL FROM THEIR CONSTITUENTS AT PACKED TOWN HALLS.

CNN'S LATEST POLLING SHOWS 52% OF AMERICANS DISAPPROVE OF HIS PUSH TO EXPAND HIS POWER.

EVEN MUSK'S DOGE OFFICE IS SEEING RESIGNATIONS.

THEY ARE CONTINUING TO TRY TO BLOCK OR PAUSE KEY PARTS OF THE AGENDA.

HOW MIGHT THE WHITE HOUSE REACT AND ADAPT?

JOINING ME IS SOMEBODY WITH PLENTY OF EXPENSE WORKING IN A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

MARK SURE WAS THE LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS DIRECTOR FOR TWO YEARS AND WAS CHIEF OF STAFF TO THEN- PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE IN THE FINAL TWO YEARS.

MARK, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IS THERE ANYTHING IN THAT INTRODUCTION YOU DISAGREE WITH?

IT IS A TOTALLY NEW AMERICA.

>> IT IS.

I THINK FOR CONTEXT THE REALITY IS, THERE'S A LARGE PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT ACTUALLY DOES WANT THIS DISRUPTION.

THEY HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR IT.

THERE'S A GROWING PART INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT DOES FEEL LIKE THE FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENTS ARE TOO MUCH.

I AM NOT SURE THAT MEANS PARTNERING WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN IS WHAT THEY WANTED.

I ALSO THINK THERE'S A LOT OF CHALLENGES COMING FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

FOR A LOT OF VOTERS ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE THEY ARE DELIGHTED TO SEE HIM TAKING A STRONGER STANCE AT SECURING THE BORDER.

MUCH OF WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH DOGE AND ELON MUSK, INSIDE THE BELTWAY MEDIA GETS UPSET.

WE HAVE $36 TRILLION IN DEBT.

THIS IS ACTUALLY GOOD.

THERE'S A LOT OF HAZARDOUS WATERS AHEAD FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

LIKELY IN MID-MARCH THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IN WHICH DEMOCRATS WILL SAY IF YOU WANT MY VOTE WE WANT THESE PROGRAMS RESTORED.

THEN AS YOU HAVE COVERED A LOT, THE FIRST WEEK OF APRIL IS A FULL ON TRADE WAR THAT I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS LOOKING TO INITIATE.

HOW THAT RAMIFICATIONS SETTLES IN THE ECONOMY WILL CREATE MANY MORE CHALLENGES FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> THAT IS QUITE A LOT FOR THEM TO BITE OFF AND FOR US ALL TO TRY TO DIGEST.

LET'S JUST START WITH THE REALIGNMENT OR AS IT IS BEING PERCEIVED.

YOU YOURSELF TWEETED ABOUT THE VERY SAD DAY FOR AMERICA.

YOU SAID IT IS SHOCKING TO SEE THE U.S.

ALIGNED WITH NORTH KOREA AND RUSSIA IN A U.N.

RESOLUTION.

COMPLETE REVERSAL OF THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS UKRAINE POLICY.

IT IS A DEEPLY TROUBLING SHIFT AND A SAD DAY FOR AMERICA.

WHAT ON EARTH IS BEHIND IT?

HE IS PUBLICLY TAKING PUTIN'S TALKING POINTS AND LOOKING PUBLICLY AS IF HE IS NOT ONLY TOSSING ZELENSKYY AND UKRAINE UNDER THE BUS BUT EXTORTING, AS ONE FORMER OFFICIAL TOLD ME, WITH THE WHOLE MINERAL STEEL AS WELL.

EXTORTING LIKE A PROTECTION RACKET.

WHY?

>> I THINK CHARITABLY THERE ARE REPUBLICANS WHO BELIEVE THIS IS PART OF HIS NEGOTIATING STYLE.

IS LOOKING TO GET BOTH PARTIES TO THE TABLE TO RESOLVE THE CONFLICT.

I AM NOT SURE THAT EXCUSES THE LANGUAGE, AGAIN ADOPTING THE TALKING POINTS AND PARTNERING WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN ON THIS.

IT IS NOT JUST A DEPARTURE FROM WHERE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS, BUT IT IS A STARK DEPARTURE FROM THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

IF YOU RECALL IN 2018, PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS RALLEYS WOULD BOAST ABOUT THE FACT THAT WHEN RUSSIA TOOK CRIMEA DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION HE MERELY SENT BLANKETS.

WE SENT JABLON MISSILES.

THAT'S THE APPLAUSE LINE.

HE CHAMPIONED THE FACT THAT WE WERE STANDING WITH UKRAINE AGAINST RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION IMPOSED SIGNIFICANT SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA.

THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION TOOK OUT 100 MERCENARIES WHEN THEY CROSSED THE RED LINE WHICH THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DID NOT DO.

THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION HAD A VERY TRADITIONAL FOREIGN POLICY.

IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS A SIGNIFICANT DEPARTURE OF BASICALLY ADOPTING THE KREMLIN TALKING POINTS.

FOR MANY AMERICANS, LOOK AT WHO IS COMING TO RUSSIA'S SIDE IN THIS WAR.

IT HAS BEEN IRAN PROVIDING DRONES, NORTH KOREA PROVIDING TROOPS, CHINA PROVIDING FUNDING.

THAT SHOULD SAY TO ALL OF US AMERICANS ABOUT WHO REALLY IS THE AGGRESSOR AND WHO IS THE DICTATOR VERSUS THE DULY ELECTED SELENSKY.

-- ZELENSKYY.

>> EXACTLY.

EVEN CHINA ABSTAINED FROM THE VOTE.

SO AGAIN I WAS IN UKRAINE.

THOSE JAVELINS WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN KEEPING RUSSIA'S FORCES IN THE EARLY DAYS AND WEEKS.

WHY IS PRESIDENT TRUMP ACTIVELY AND CONSTANTLY DELEGITIMIZING THE ALLY, TRAN50 -- ZELENSKYY BY CONSTANTLY CALLING A DICTATOR SAYING HE WAS UNELECTED.

WHY?

WE CAN'T GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHY THIS CHANGE?

>> I AM NOT IN THERE SO I CAN GIVE YOU MY BEST GUESS.

CHARITABLY THERE'S AN ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS NEW RHETORICAL NEGOTIATION TO GET ZELENSKYY TO WANTING TO REACH A PEACE DEAL.

>> IT IS ONLY ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN TRYING.

THE ART OF THE DEAL SURELY CANNOT SAY THE BEST NEGOTIATING TACTIC IS TO COMPLETELY DELEGITIMIZE AND WEAKEN THE HAND OF YOUR ALLY.

>> AGAIN, IF IT'S GOING TO BE A QUICK SETTLEMENT WITH A SOLUTION TO BE TO ALLOW RUSSIA TO KEEP WHAT THEY HAVE TAKEN?

I THINK A BIGGER CHALLENGE LOOKING FORWARD IS, WHAT IS CHINA LEARNING?

I THINK THERE IS GREAT CONCERN ABOUT CHINA TAKING OVER TAIWAN.

IF THEY ARE LOOKING AT US AND SAY IN AMERICA IS NOT INTERESTED IN HELPING RESOLVE THIS TO THE NATION THAT WAS HIS INVADED IT SENDS TERRIBLE SIGNALS TO OUR ALLIES IN THE PACIFIC.

>> I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ASKED ABOUT TAIWAN AND DID NOT WANT TO ANSWER IT.

SOME PEOPLE SAY POTENTIALLY HE MIGHT NOT CARE.

CAN I ASK YOU -- YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE ROOM.

YOU KNOW HIS STYLE.

YOU DID THE LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS.

IT MEANS DEALING WITH HIS AGENDA IN CONGRESS ET CETERA.

IF YOU WERE DEALING WITH IT OVERSEAS, DO YOU THINK HE HAS GONE TO A PLACE WHICH IS ABOUT SPHERES OF INFLUENCE WHICH IS ONLY TRANSACTIONAL AND SAYS YOU KEEP WHAT IS YOURS, CHINA YOU KEEP WHAT IS YOURS AND I WILL HAVE MINE INCLUDING ALL THE OTHER STUFF AND EXPAND THE TERRITORY AND WE DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT EACH OTHER IS DOING?

>> I THINK THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THAT.

THE REALITY IS HE DOES VIEW THE WORLD AS OUR BIGGER ADVERSARY AS CHINA SO LET'S FOCUS THERE AND NOT WORRY ABOUT THESE OTHER ENTANGLEMENTS AND DISPUTES.

I THINK THERE'S ALSO THE REALITY BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS VERY TRANSACTIONAL.

IT COULD CHANGE ON A DIME.

YOU COULD SEE WITH ZELENSKYY'S VISIT THAT THE PRESIDENT EMBRACES HIM WHILE HE'S HERE.

IT IS A LITTLE BIT HARD FOR PEOPLE TO GET A SIGNAL AS TO WHERE IT IS GOING LONG-TERM, BUT I DO THINK HE DOES HAVE A PERSPECTIVE THAT THERE ARE MAJOR PLAYERS ON THE WORLD STAGE INCLUDING US AND CHINA AND RUSSIA AND SOME OF THESE OTHER DISPUTES AND WE NEED TO GET OUT OF THE WAY TO SOLVE THE BIGGER CHALLENGES.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S WHAT I AGREE WITH BUT I SAY THEY HAVE THAT PERSPECTIVE BY SOME AROUND THE PRESIDENT TODAY.

>> I WONDER IF YOU DO AGREE WITH SOME OF THIS STUFF.

I KNOW BY SOME OF IT YOU ARE SAYING NOT NECESSARILY, BUT WHAT AFFECTS AMERICA AND WHAT THEY VOTED FOR WAS THE ECONOMY.

I JUST HEARD YOU SAY THAT YOU SAID THERE WILL BE A TRADE WAR COMING.

I DO NOT KNOW WHO THAT WILL BE WASTE.

EUROPE IS VERY WORRIED.

TRUMP HAS SAID THE EU WAS CREATED TO SCREW US.

HIS WORDS NOT MINE.

IS TRYING TO FIGHT WITH CANADA AND MEXICO.

WHAT WILL THAT MEAN FOR THE AMERICAN CONSUMER, THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM?

>> RIGHT QUESTION.

AGAIN I THINK IT IS A CONTRAST FROM THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION.

PRESIDENT HAS ALWAYS EMBRACED THE PROTECTION THAT HE BELIEVES FOREIGN COUNTRIES SHOULD BE CHARGING FOR ACCESS TO AMERICAN MARKETS AND IT SEEMS THERE'S NOT A FULL APPRECIATION THAT THE AMERICAN IMPORTER IS THE ONE PAYING THE TARIFFS.

IT IS A SIGNIFICANT TAX ON AMERICAN CONSUMERS.

HAVING SAID THAT, THE REALITY IS THAT MUCH OF THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION TARIFFS WERE BANDIED ABOUT AS A NEGOTIATION POINT.

SUCH AS WITH MEXICO.

TO GET THEM TO INSTITUTE REMAIN IN MEXICO POLICIES.

IN MANY CASES HE WAS VERY EFFECTIVE IN DOING THAT.

I THINK IT IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION THIS TIME.

THE ADVISORS HE HAS AROUND HIM ARE THOSE THAT TRULY BELIEVE LIKE HE DOES IN THE BENEFITS OF TARIFFS AND THERE'S NO LONGER A NATIONAL SECURITY APPARATUS AROUND HIM THAT ARGUES THE BENEFITS OF TRADE HELP US WITH NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERNS ACROSS THE GLOBE.

I THINK HE HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR IN SIGNALING IT TAKES 90 DAYS FOR A U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE TO INSTITUTE AND COMPLETE STUDIES TO SHOW UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES WHICH ON THE DAY OF INAUGURATION BETSY CLOSE TO THE FIRST WEEK IN APRIL WHEN I THINK IT WILL BE PRETTY MUCH A BROADSCALE TARIFF THAT WILL BE ASSESSED PRETTY MUCH GLOBALLY.

>> WE MENTIONED WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT AND WHAT THEY VOTED FOR.

TO YOUR MIND THEY WANT TOTAL DISRUPTION, AT LEAST THOSE THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY A THIRD OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

HE DID NOT WIN A MASSIVE MAJORITY.

IT'S BEEN ASSESSED SOMEWHERE AROUND 30+ % OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION.

WHAT HE IS DOING IS GIVING AN UNELECTED AMERICAN ENORMOUS POWERS.

AS I SAID, 52% ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENORMOUS POWERS THAT ARE BEING BANDIED AROUND.

HERE IS HOW AND WHAT ELON MUSK SAID IN THE CABINET MEETING.

REMEMBER, NOT A CABINET MEMBER OR A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL BUT SPOKE MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN THE MEETING.

TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE MISTAKES WITH THESE CUTS GOT HIS CHAINSAW HAS GONE AT.

LET ME PLAY THAT FOR YOU.

>> WE WILL MAKE MISTAKES.

WE WON'T BE PERFECT.

WHEN WE MAKE A MISTAKE WE WILL FIX IT VERY QUICKLY.

FOR EXAMPLE, WITH USAID, ONE OF THE THINGS WE ACCIDENTALLY CANCELED VERY BRIEFLY WAS EBOLA.

WE ARE STILL IN THE EBOLA PREVENTION.

>> HE SAYS MISTAKES LIKE EBOLA BUT WE RESTORED IT.

APPARENTLY OFFICIALS SAY THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECONSTITUTED.

AS WE KNOW NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS WERE ALSO FIRED AND IT WAS HARD TO GET THEM BACK.

YOU HAVE IN IN THE CABINET ROOM.

IS THIS AN UNUSUAL STATE OF AFFAIRS?

AMERICANS DO NOT PARTICULARLY LIKE THIS.

>> I AGAIN AN UNUSUAL STATE OF AFFAIRS.

IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION THE CABINET MEETINGS WOULD BE MORE OF A PRESS CONFERENCE THAN CABINET MEETING.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT THIS IS OUT OF CHARACTER FROM THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION.

TO YOUR OTHER POINTS ABOUT WHAT AMERICANS WANTED, I THINK THERE'S A LARGE AMOUNT OF LATITUDE BECAUSE THEY KNOW WE ARE $36 TRILLION IN DEBT AND THE GOVERNMENT IS TOO LARGE AND NEEDS TO BE CUT BACK.

ULTIMATELY AS YOU SAID I THINK THERE ARE TWO ISSUES THAT DROVE THE ELECTION.

ONE WAS THE BORDER AND THE SECOND WAS THE WAY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HANDLED INFLATION AND THEY TRUSTED TRUMP TO RESTORE THE ECONOMY.

IS SINCE -- IF INSTEAD WE HEAD INTO MASSIVE TRADE WARS AND GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWNS I THINK THAT WILL IMPACT A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO DO BECAUSE THE VOTERS WILL SAY THESE ARE THE THINGS WE ASKED YOU TO DO AND IF YOU LIKE GETTING THAT RIGHT WE HAVE LESS CONFIDENCE IN WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO IN UKRAINE OR ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE.

I THINK THAT IS A CHALLENGE THEY NEED TO LOOK AT IS WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF SOME OF THESE POLICIES THEY ARE LOOKING TO IMPLEMENT.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE FREEDOM AGENDA.

YOU ARE NOW BOARD CHAIR OF ADVANCING AMERICAN FREEDOM.

I WANT TO ASK YOU YOUR THOUGHT.

THE ADMINISTRATION PORTRAYS EVERYTHING THEY ARE DOING IN TERMS OF FREEDOM OF ROLLING BACK AUTOCRACY OR AUTHORITARIANISM OF WOKE, AGGRESSIVENESS, DE I AND THE REST OF IT.

NOW THEY SAY WE CAN HAVE ANY KIND OF SPEECH EVEN STUFF WE MIGHT CALL HATE SPEECH AND THE LIKE.

THAT IS FREEDOM.

YOU HEARD J.D.

VANCE SAY TO EUROPE, EUROPE OF ALL PLACES THAT HAVE A YACHT -- NAZI ONSLAUGHT THAT THEY SHOULD ALLOW THESE FAR RIGHT PEOPLE INTO GOVERNMENT.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF THAT?

IS THAT FREEDOM?

>> I DO BELIEVE THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION ADVOCATED A LIMITED GOVERNMENT APPROACH THAT WAS GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY AND GOOD TO EXPAND FREEDOMS.

MY CONCERN IS THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME PLAYBOOK FROM THE SECOND ADMINISTRATION.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HELPED ELECT HIM WAS CANDIDLY THE PERCEPTION THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD BEEN POLITICIZED UNDER THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK IF HE USES IT TO GO AFTER HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES YOU WILL HAVE THE SAME BLOWBACK FROM AMERICAN VOTERS WHO DO NOT WANT THAT.

THEY WANT TO FOCUS ON THE BORDER SECURITY AND ECONOMY.

IF YOU ARE USING THE GOVERNMENT AS A TOOL TO GO AFTER POLITICAL ENEMIES YOU ARE MAKING IT A BIGGER GOVERNMENT.

I DO THINK THERE IS A WARNING SIGN AS TO WHERE I THINK THE FIRST 30 DAYS AND THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE CONDUCTED THEMSELVES.

>> IT IS INTERESTING TO HEAR THIS FROM YOU.

WE DO WANT TO HEAR FROM CONSERVATIVES THAT CAN TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON.

AGAIN, YOU WERE CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6 WHERE HE WAS NOT OFFENDED BY THE PRESIDENT.

OVER SAYING TO HANG HIM ET CETERA BUT HE HAS BECOME ONE OF THE FEW REPUBLICANS WHO ARE WILLING TO STAND UP TO TRUMP.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT BECAUSE HE WAS SUCH A LOYAL FOOT SOLDIER DURING HIS TERM AS VICE PRESIDENT.

DO YOU FEEL THAT SOME OF THESE ELECTED REPUBLICANS WILL CONTINUE TO FACE THIS BACKLASH?

WILL THEY BEGIN TO TRY TO PUSH BACK AGAINST SOME OF THESE EXCESSES THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING?

>> I DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO BE PUT IN THAT BOX.

I THINK THE VICE PRESIDENT VERY MUCH WANTS TO ENCOURAGE THINGS HE SUPPORTS.

THERE'S A LOT OF PERSONNEL DECISIONS AND ADVANCEMENT OF TAX RELIEF AND THINGS HE DOES WANT TO SUPPORT BUT I THINK THAT THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES.

IF YOU ARE A CONSISTENT CONSERVATIVE THERE'S PARTS OF THIS YOU CANNOT BE COMFORTABLE WITH BECAUSE IT IS NO LONGER ADVANCING A SMALLER, LIMITED GOVERNMENT.

ALSO FROM THE NATIONAL SECURITY PERSPECTIVE AS WE HAVE ALREADY TALKED, I THINK THERE ARE CONCERNS THAT THE FOREIGN POLICY THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION IS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT.

I THINK HE WILL SPEAK OUT ON THAT.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR INSIGHT.

TO BE CONTINUED.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NEXT, TO LONDON'S HOT NEW PLAY KYOTO.

IT TELLS THE STORY OF MORE THAN A DECADE OF CLIMATE TALKS LEADING TO THE GROUNDBREAKING PROTOCOL WHICH SAW THE WORLD COMMIT TO REDUCING CARBON EMISSIONS.

IN A TWIST THE PROTAGONIST IS A LOBBYIST DOING HIS BEST TO STALL ANY AND ALL ACTION.

JUST THIS WEEK BP ANNOUNCED IT WILL BE TURNING AWAY FROM RENEWABLES AND BACK TOWARDS FOSSIL FUELS.

THIS AS TRUMP DISMANTLES DECADES OF PAINSTAKING CLIMATE PROTECTION AT HOME.

THE PLAY IS STRIKING A REAL NERVE IN THE UK.

I WENT TO THE THEATER TO TALK ABOUT WHAT INSPIRED IT.

JOE MURPHY, STEPHEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT WAS THE INSPIRATION?

YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF VERY TIMELY AND POLITICAL PLAYS.

THERE WAS THE JUNGLE ABOUT REFUGEES AND HOW THIS ONE AMONGST OTHERS.

>> ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO WE STARTED THE PROCESS OF BEGINNING TO THINK ABOUT THE DISAGREEABLE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN.

WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY OF CULTURE WARS AND POLARIZATION.

HOW DO YOU WRITE SOMETHING THAT SPEAKS TO THAT IS A PROBLEM.

WE WERE SEARCHING FOR STORIES ABOUT AGREEMENT AND THE PROCESS OF AGREEMENT.

IT WAS THROUGH THAT LENS THAT WE CAME TO KYOTO.

IN 1997, THE FIRST TIME THE WORLD AGREED UNANIMOUSLY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, TO REDUCE CARBON EMISSIONS.

IT FELT TO US LIKE A KIND OF ROMANCE STORY.

SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL.

SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO STRIVE TOWARDS ESPECIALLY IN THE TIMES THAT WE LIVE IN.

SO WE FIND OURSELVES WRITING ABOUT CHANGE, I SUPPOSE.

>> IT IS THE EXISTENTIAL CRISIS OF OUR TIME.

>> IT IS.

IT'S ALSO SOMETHING THAT IS DIFFICULT TO WRITE ABOUT IN SOMETHING OTHER THAN APOCALYPTIC TERMS.

>> IT IS INTERESTING YOU SAY ROMANCE.

STEPHEN, YOU PLAY DON PERLMAN WHO IS A REAL-LIFE OIL LOBBYIST.

>> THIS IS OIL.

IT DID NOT SEEM LIKE A RON CALM TO ME.

A BIT OF A THRILLER.

THEY PASSED -- FAST-PACED AND HUMOROUS.

HOW DID YOU APPROACH BE IN THE BATTY.

>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I DO NOT THINK THEY THINK OF THEMSELVES AS BAD.

EVERYBODY TRIES TO FIND THEIR OWN MUSIC AND THEIR OWN PATH FORWARD.

HE IS CLEARLY IN INTEGRITY WITH HIS OWN IDEAS AND PROVIDES ZEALOUS REPRESENTATION FOR HIS CLIENTS.

WHETHER OR NOT HE FALLS ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY OR IDEAS I THINK IS FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO DETERMINE.

NOT UNLIKE THE JOE'S -- >> THOSE ARE THE TWO WRITERS.

>> I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING AS AN ACTOR THAT REALLY STARTED TO DEAL WITH HOW DO WE GET THROUGH THIS?

HOW DO WE FIND COMMONALITY WITH PEOPLE THAT WE FIND THIS TASTEFUL.

I COULD NOT DO ANOTHER POLITICAL CYCLE WHERE SOCIAL MEDIA HAVE ME HATING ALL OF THE PEOPLE AROUND ME.

I WANTED TO TRY TO GET INSIDE OF PEOPLE THAT I FOUND THEIR IDEAS DISAGREEABLE AND SEE IF I COULD FIND CONNECTIVE TISSUE.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

THIS PLAY WAS WRITTEN BEFORE HE WON WHERE THERE WAS ACTUALLY SOME HOPE WHETHER IT WAS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OR THE EU HAD REALLY MADE A GREEN ECONOMY.

WHEN YOU ARE WRITING IT, ARE YOU HOPEFUL?

TO BE HONEST WE WERE FEARFUL OF THE ELECTION, THE RECENT ELECTION IN AMERICA WE WERE TRYING TO, I SUPPOSE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DIALECTIC OF A DIFFERENT SIDE OF THE AISLE.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THESE PEOPLE ARE COMING FROM.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE EVERYBODY IN SOCIETY IS COMING FROM.

THE OTHER DAY STEVE BANNON STOOD UP AND SAID MANY A POINT THINGS.

HE SAID ONE THING I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING.

THEY SAID THEY CANNOT COME -- DEFEAT WHAT THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE MEDIA.

I THINK THAT IS RIGHT.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND OUR OPPONENTS IN THE CREATION OF SOCIETY.

WE HAVE TO GET THROUGH ENOUGH OF WHAT THIS ARGUMENT IS.

I THINK IT IS SOMETHING LIKE WHAT TRUMP IS OFFERING IS A KIND OF SHORT-TERM THAT IS ATTRACTIVE AND AVOIDS THE COMPLEXITY OF THE CHALLENGE.

WE KNOW THAT WE CANNOT DO THAT ANY LONGER, BUT WE HAVE TO PROVIDE A LANGUAGE TO PEOPLE THAT PERSUADES THEM THAT DOING SOMETHING COMPLICATED IS BETTER THAN IGNORING THE PROBLEM.

HOPEFULLY, THE PLAY ADMITS TO THE COMPLEXITIES OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND POLITICAL POLARIZATION AND CAN WELCOME AN AUDIENCE OF ALL DIFFERENT POLITICAL PERSUASIONS.

THAT IS THE HOPE TO GET EVERYBODY IN THE SAME ROOM.

>> ON THAT, DON PERLMAN MAY HAVE THOUGHT HE WAS THE GOOD GUY, BUT HE KNEW THE WEALTH OF INFORMATION THAT THE SO-CALLED SEVEN SISTERS.

THAT IS PART OF THE PLAY.

ALMOST LIKE THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY BEFORE 60 MINUTES BLEW THEIR COVER AND BEFORE THEY HAD TO BE CALLED IN FRONT OF CONGRESS.

THEY HAD THE DATA THAT TOBACCO WAS CAUSING CANCER AND THEY LIED ABOUT IT.

THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY HAS KNOWN FOR YEARS WHAT CARBON IN THE ATMOSPHERE DOES AND TRIED TO KILL IT.

THAT IS BASICALLY PART OF THIS PLAY.

HOW DID YOU ABSORB HIM.

I DO NOT BELIEVE HE'S STILL ALIVE BUT YOU DID TALK TO HIS SON.

WHAT DID YOU GET FROM HIM THAT ENABLED YOU TO PLAY HIS CHARACTER?

>> THERE'S TWO THINGS THAT I THINK ARE INTERESTING ABOUT THE WAY HE EXISTS IN THE WORLD.

ONE, ONE CAME FROM WHAT, THE LANGUAGE THEY HAVE GIVEN WHICH IS THE INNOVATION CURVE VERSUS THE EXTINCTION CURVE.

I THINK HE VERY MUCH BELIEVES IN AN AMERICA THAT CAN FIND THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH INNOVATION AND RIGOROUS EXPLORATION.

YOU CANNOT STOP PROGRESS.

IT'S NOT OUR FAULT THAT WE HAVE OIL BUT IT'S HERE SO HOW DO WE FIND OUR WAY OUT OF IT.

I THINK AS A VERY INTELLIGENT LAWYER HE FIGURED ANY POLICY THAT COULD BEAT HIM WOULD BE POLICY THAT MIGHT STAND THE TEST OF TIME.

>> I HAVE HEARD IT SAID BY BOTH OF YOU THAT THIS IS ALSO A THRILLER.

IT'S VERY FAST PACE WITH ALL THESE INCREDIBLE ACTORS.

IT IS QUITE HUMOROUS.

YOU HAVE A YOUNG ANGELA MERKEL.

I HAD FORGOTTEN SHE WAS AN ENVIRONMENT MINISTER.

YOU HAVE THE ARGENTINIAN CONFERENCE CHAIRMAN.

YOU HAVE THE BRITISH DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER.

THEY ARE ALL AMAZINGLY FUNNY AND SERIOUS AND HEARTBREAKING AND THE TANZANIAN DELEGATE AS WELL AND THE ISLAND COMMUNITIES IN THE PACIFIC.

IT IS ALL HAPPENING NOW AS WELL.

IN A WAY, WATCHING IT 30+ YEARS LATER WE ARE STILL HAVING THAT SAME ARGUMENT.

>> THE TEMPTATION IS TO FEEL EXACTLY THAT KIND OF DESPAIR.

I WON'T PRETEND I HAVE NOT FELT THAT AT TIMES, BUT I THINK IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WE WOULD EXIST IN A WORSE WORLD IF IT HAD NOT HAPPENED.

IT FEELS LIKE A SLIGHT CLICHI AT THE MOMENT.

SENATOR JOHN KERRY WAS HERE THE OTHER DAY.

>> HE IS STILL FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT.

>> HE DID MANY GREAT THINGS.

HIS SIGNATURE ON PARIS DOESN'T HAVE QUITE THE SAME RELEVANCE AT THE MOMENT, BUT I'M SURE IT WILL AT THE FUTURE.

PEOPLE COME HERE AND THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT FEELS RELEVANT, FEELS QUICK, BUT FUNDAMENTALLY THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT FEELS PERSONAL.

>> IT JUST LOOKS LIKE IT.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE SECURITY COUNCIL.

>> THIS IS ALSO A PERSONAL SPACE FULL OF HUMAN BEINGS AND HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS.

THE TEMPTATION, THE ALLURE OF THE CURRENT LANGUAGE TO CALL THINGS LIKE THIS SWAMPS OR BLOBS IS NOT TRUE.

THEY ARE CHARACTERIZED BY THE HUMANS THAT TAKE THEM FORWARD.

>> CAN I SAY THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION CAUGHT AT THE BLOB AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CALLED IT A SWAMP.

THERE'S A BIPARTISAN DISDAIN FOR THIS KIND OF THING.

I THINK IT IS A REALLY CRUCIAL POINT.

WE ARE NOT SITTING ON ONE SIDE OF THE POLITICAL ARGUMENT WHEN WE SAY THAT THIS KIND OF ENVIRONMENT TAKES MORE CHARACTERIZATION.

TO DO THAT YOU NEED TO PUT FORWARD THE HUMAN BEINGS.

WHO WORKS TO MAKE THESE DEALS.

>> I NOTICED THAT AUDIENCE MEMBERS ARE SITTING RIGHT AT THE TABLE DURING VARIOUS PARTS OF THE PLAY INCLUDING INTERMISSION YOU TALK TO THEM.

HAVE YOU NOTICED A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY AUDIENCES REACT SINCE THE TRUMP ELECTION AND BEFORE THE TRUMP ELECTION?

>> WHEN WE DID IT WE WERE IN THAT MOMENT OF TIME OF WHO DO WE WANT TO BE.

WHAT ARE THE CHOICES FOR THE AMERICAN ELECTION.

THERE HAVE BEEN OTHERS AS WELL, BUT YOU COULD FEEL CERTAIN MOMENTS HAD A KIND OF -- GAVE PERMISSION FOR PEOPLE TO LAUGH AND ENJOY THAT THAT WE ARE GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

IT'S A CAUTIONARY TALE THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO COME OUT, PEOPLE COMING TO THE THEATER MIGHT THE WE WOULD END UP ON A DIFFERENT SIDE THAN WHEN WE ARRIVED.

NOW IT HAS BECOME MORE OF A CALL TO ARMS.

YOU CAN FEEL PEOPLE FEELING MUCH MORE MOTHER ROSE, HAVE TO PULL THEMSELVES OFF OF THE FLOOR.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE I TALK ABOUT THE IDEA OF AMERICA.

>> JUST REMIND US WHAT IT IS.

>> THE WORLD DEPENDS ON A STRONG AMERICA.

>> THAT IS ALL IN QUESTION RIGHT NOW, PARTICULARLY IN THIS LAST WEEK WHERE AMERICA SEEMS TO BE RETREATING FROM ITS HISTORIC PROTECTION OF EUROPE AND THE REST.

>> THE WAY THAT PLACE NOW SOMETIMES THERE ARE SOME NIGHTS WHERE PEOPLE LAUGH AND THAT INJECTS A CERTAIN KIND OF FIRE BACK INTO THAT MOMENT.

>> YOU FEED OFF THE AUDIENCE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU CAN FEEL AS YOU WORK THE ROOM THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO SIT BACK IN THEIR CHAIRS.

WHEN YOU ENGAGE THEY LEAN FORWARD.

THAT'S THE POINT.

IN THIS MOMENT I THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN ADMINISTRATIONS AND TIMES WHERE I THINK WE AS A PUBLIC DIFFER AND BELIEVE EVERYTHING IS BEING DONE WELL FOR US.

IN THESE MOMENTS EDUCATION AND LEANING FORWARD MAYBE THAT IS THE POSITIVITY OF THIS MOMENT IS THAT A PLAY, FINDING YOURSELF ON THE FRONT LINE YOURSELF, WE ARE A MUCH BIGGER ARMY EN MASSE GUN WE ARE THINKING.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PLAY AS BRINGING PEOPLE IN.

YOU ALSO YOU TALK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, MAYBE EVEN THE JUNGLE.

GIVEN THE TIME AS A PROTEST PLAY.

THIS PLAY MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN A PROTEST PLAY HAD KAMALA HARRIS WON.

THE JUNGLE OR THE HANDMAID'S TALE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN SO INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO BEAR HAD HILLARY CLINTON NOT LOST WHEN YOU ARE PLAYING THEM AND TRUMP HAD WON WITH ALL OF HIS MISOGYNY AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

THE JUNGLE WHICH YOU DID ABOUT REFUGEES WAS ALSO A PROTEST PLAY AS TO HOW THE WORLD WAS STEALING WITH THE MOST VULNERABLE AMONGST US.

>> AND ARTISTIC SPACES, THEATERS ARE ALWAYS THE PLACES FOR THAT.

ONE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE TO PROTEST.

THAT IS A REALITY OF THE SOCIAL CONTRACT.

ARTISTIC SPACES STILL REMAIN COMPLEX SPACES WHERE YOU CAN TRY TO TEASE OUT THE THREAT OF DIFFERENT IDEAS AND QUESTION HOW THINGS RELATE TO EACH OTHER AND ALL THIS KIND OF THING WHICH IS ESSENTIAL TO UNDERSTANDING THE MOMENT WE ARE IN.

IT'S NO ACCIDENT THAT FOR THE SUBJECT OF THE PLAY WE GO BACK TO 1997, A DIFFERENT TIME ALL TOGETHER.

IT IS OFTEN HELPFUL TO LOOK TO THE PAST TO GET YOUR BEARINGS IN A VERY CONFUSING PRESENT.

GOD KNOWS WE ARE IN ONE NOW.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS KIND OF THE AHA MOMENT OF THE PLAY?

>> FOR ME WHAT IT ENDED UP BEING WAS AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION TO WANTING TO DO SOMETHING.

IT IS INCREDIBLY POWERFUL.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THIS AS A PROTEST PIECE WE HAVE WORKED VERY HARD TO NOT MAKE US COME DOWN COMPLETELY ON ONE SIDE.

IT IS A PROTEST PIECE AGAINST COMPLACENCY.

GET UP AND FIGURE IT OUT.

EDUCATE YOURSELF AND GET INTO THE FRAY.

YOU MAY NOT FEEL THE SAME.

THERE WILL BE INFORMED OPINIONS ON ALL SIDES, BUT DO NOT GIVE AWAY YOUR POWER.

FOR ME IN THAT MOMENT, THE POWER OF COMMITMENT TO WANTING TO DO SOMETHING IS SHOCKING.

>> BP AS WE SPEAK HAS ANNOUNCED IT IS TURNING AWAY FROM RENEWABLES AND BACK TOWARD FOSSIL FUELS AND EMPLOYING A LOT OF THE DRILL BABY DRILL AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?

>> IT IS A REAL STRUGGLE.

THERE IS A THICKNESS TO THE THROAT.

ONE DOES NOT QUITE KNOW WHAT ONE IS MEANT TO SAY.

CERTAINLY, MY INSTINCT IS TO REACT TO THINGS THAT I HEAR THROUGH THE MOUTHS OF NEW PRESIDENTS IN A WAY I HAVE REACTED TO PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS.

I WONDER IF THAT IS ACTUALLY A BIG ERROR AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TO REALLY LISTEN TO WHAT IS BEING SAID, TO NOT RESPOND TO EVERYTHING THAT IS BEING SAID, TO PICK OUR MOMENTS AND REALLY THINK ABOUT OUR ARGUMENT.

I SPOKE EARLIER ABOUT THE ATTRACTION OF TALKING ABOUT SHORT-TERM GOALS THAT WILL MAKE US RICHER AND STRONGER FOR A MOMENT AND WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO ARGUE FOR THE LONG-TERM.

THESE ARE LONG-TERM INSTITUTIONS BY DESIGN.

PARIS, WHICH THE U.S. HAS PULLED OUT FROM AT THE MOMENT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT KYOTO.

EACH INSTRUMENT IS BUILT ON TOP OF THE OTHER.

IT'S A GREAT THING THAT HE HAS NOT PULLED OUT AT THE CONVENTION WHICH WAS SIGNED IN RIO.

THAT MIGHT SEEM A MAD THING TO GO THAT IS A POSITIVE, BUT IT IS.

THAT MEANS THERE ARE LEGAL INSTRUMENTS >> THAT WAS 92 AND I COVERED THAT.

LET'S GO BACK TO HANDMAID'S TALE.

IT'S A REAL ISSUE, THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN.

YOU CAN SEE THE NEW QUOTE UNQUOTE MANNA SPHERE WITH THE ROSE WITH MEXICO IS >> ZUCKERBERG AND TRUMP.

TELL ME WHAT IT'S LIKE TO PLAY THAT WHEN YOU THOUGHT MAYBE HILLARY WAS GOING TO WIN AND THEN WHEN SHE DIDN'T AND ALL THE PROGRESS WAS ROLLED BACK AND IS NOW BEING ROLLED BACK?

>> I COMMITTED TO DO THAT PART RIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTION.

I THINK WHEN I ARRIVED WE ALL BELIEVED WE WERE MAKING ANOTHER CAUTIONARY TALE WHEN WE ARRIVED ON THE GROUND AND IT WAS A WHOLE DIFFERENT REALITY.

IT IS HARD.

IT'S INVIGORATING TO WORK ON THOSE THINGS.

IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE WE WENT THROUGH AN ENTIRE CYCLES IN THE SIX YEARS WE MADE THE SHOW.

WE HAD THE MOMENT OF PROTEST.

WE CAME BACK OUT AND THOUGHT SOMETHING WAS ACHIEVED HERE.

WE SAW THOSE CRIMSON CLOTHING APPEAR OUTSIDE OF CONGRESS.

WE WERE MAKING AN EFFECT.

THEN THE SHOW HAS JUST WRAPPED AND WE ARE IN A DIFFERENT WORLD.

I THINK ONE OF THE PIECES OF SOLACE WE CAN TAKE IS THAT TIME IS LONG.

YOU HIT A CERTAIN AGE WHERE YOU LOOK AT THE CYCLES.

THINGS WILL CHANGE.

THERE IS HOPE.

IT REQUIRES MOMENTS OF REINVIGORATION AND IT REQUIRES US, THERE IS A MOMENT IN THE PLAY WHERE HE SAYS THIS IS NOT MY WORLD ANYMORE TO HIS SON OR HOPES HE'S GOING TO SAY THAT TO HIS SON.

THERE IS A MOMENT WHERE I LOOK AT MY DAUGHTER AND HER GENERATION AND HOW THEY ARE EDUCATING THEMSELVES.

THE ARK OF THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG.

THIS IS A PROBLEM ANOTHER GENERATION IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

HOW DO WE HELP THAT GENERATION TO HAVE THE TOOLS TO DEAL WITH IT.

ARE IS A VERY POWERFUL EDUCATING MECHANISM BECAUSE IT DOESN'T JUST DEAL INTELLECTUALLY.

IT DEALS WITH THE HUMAN SPIRIT AND THAT MOMENT OF JUST CONNECTIVE TISSUE THROUGH ENERGY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF SCHOOLS THAT HAVE COME TO SEE THIS.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

>> THEY LEAN OVER THE EDGES AND THEY REALLY GET IT.

>> ON THAT HOPEFUL NOTE, IT IS GENERATIONAL.

STEPHEN AND JOE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

KYOTO IS ON AT LONDON'S SOHO PLACE THEATRE UNTIL MAY.

NEXT TO A STRUGGLE FAR MORE INTIMATE AND PERSONAL.

SINCE TAKING OFFICE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TARGETED TRANS-PEOPLE .

NOW BAHRAIN TRANS-PEOPLE FROM SERVING IN THE MILITARY.

IT COMES AMID A NEW DIRECTIVE AGAINST DDI AND AS ANTI-LGBT BILLS ARE IN REDUCED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SPEAKING TO THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION THEY EXPLAIN WHY THE GROUP IS BEING TARGETED .

HE SPEAKS FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE HE HAS SIGNED A RAFT OF DIFFERENT EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

WE WILL GET TO SOME OF THOSE IN A MOMENT, TARGETING EXPLICITLY THE RIGHTS OF TRANS-PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES.

I GUESS MY FIRST QUESTION TO YOU IS A BIG PICTURE ONE.

WHAT IS THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE RIGHT NOW FOR TRANS-PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY AND WHAT ARE YOUR BIGGEST CONCERNS?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

AS YOU KNOW, THE LAST MONTH HAS REALLY BEEN CHARACTERIZED FOR TRANS-PEOPLE BY ONE ATTACK AFTER ANOTHER FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION.

WE STARTED THESE ATTACKS DURING THE CAMPAIGN WHEN THE PRESIDENT AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SPENT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOCUSING ON ATTACK ADS TARGETING TRANS-PEOPLE.

POST JANUARY 20 IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY DAY THERE'S SOME NEW EXECUTIVE ACTION RESTRICTING THE RIGHTS OF TRANS-PEOPLE AND REALLY ZEROING IN ON EFFORTS TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAVING JOBS, GOING TO THE BATHROOM, GOING TO SCHOOL, JOINING THE MILITARY, ACCESSING HEALTHCARE.

IT'S A FULL-SCALE ASSAULT ON TRANS-PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO LIVE FREELY IN THIS COUNTRY.

FOR THE TRANS COMMUNITY, IT'S A TIME OF GREAT ANXIETY AND FEAR AND CONCERN FOR THE FUTURE.

FOR ME IN TERMS OF WHAT I'M LOOKING AT, I'M MOST SCARED ABOUT THESE CONTINUED EROSIONS INTO OUR ABILITY TO ACCESS ESSENTIAL THINGS LIKE HEALTHCARE.

THAT IS ALSO SOMETHING MANY PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY ARE WORRIED ABOUT.

WILL WE CONTINUE TO SEE THE EXECUTIVE UNILATERALLY TRY TO CUT GRANT FUNDING CONGRESS HAD ALLOCATED TO INSTITUTIONS AND THE STATE.

AT THE TIME OF SIGNIFICANT.

HERRITY AND I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SUSTAINABILITY OF SEPARATION OF POWERS AS WELL AS THE ABILITY OF TRANS-PEOPLE TO SURVIVE IN THE FACE OF THESE ATTACKS.

>> LET'S GO OVER SOME OF THESE ORDERS.

ON DAY ONE THERE WERE A LOT OF ORDERS THAT HE SIGNED.

ONE OF THEM SAID, IT IS THE POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES TO RECOGNIZE TWO SEXIST MALE AND FEMALE.

THEY ARE NOT CHANGEABLE AND ARE GROUNDED IN FUNDAMENTAL AND INCONTROVERTIBLE REALITY.

THAT SEEMS TO BE THE UNDERLYING IDEA IN SO MANY OF THESE OTHER POLICIES THAT SPRING FROM IT.

>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

IT WAS A DECLARATION ON DAY ONE IN ESSENCE FROM THE POSITION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TRANS- PEOPLE DO NOT EXIST.

THE ORDER REFERS TO A QUOTE, FALSE CLAIM THAT AN INDIVIDUAL CAN LIVE AND IDENTIFY IN A SEX DIFFERENT THAN ASSIGNED AT BIRTH.

FROM THERE WE HAVE SEEN THE PRESIDENT DIRECT FEDERAL AGENCIES TO PREVENT TRANS- PEOPLE FROM ACCESSING PASSPORTS AND OTHER FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION , TO INSTRUCT SCHOOLS TO NOT PROTECT THE ABILITY OF TRANS- STUDENTS TO PARTICIPATE IN ACTIVITIES ALONGSIDE THEIR PEERS.

TO THREATEN FUNDING TO HOSPITALS THAT ALLOW PEOPLE TO RECEIVE MEDICAL CARE CONSISTENT WITH DOCTOR RECOMMENDATIONS.

THAT IS ONE OF THE UNDERLYING PREMISES THAT TRANS-PEOPLE DON'T EXIST AND THEREFORE THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE ALL SORTS OF ACTIONS TO TRY TO PREVENT US FROM LIVING.

WE PLAINLY DO EXIST.

WE ARE HERE IN THE WORLD SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS WE WILL SEE LEGAL ATTEMPTS TO LIMIT OUR ABILITY TO SURVIVE IN LIGHT OF OUR INCONTROVERTIBLE EXISTENCE.

>> ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT ON MAKING THIS A CENTRAL ISSUE.

NOW HE IS IN OFFICE.

HE'S OF THE OPINION THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY OR AT LEAST THE MAJORITY THAT VOTED FOR ME ARE IN FAVOR OF THESE MEASURES.

THAT'S WHY I'M DOING THEM.

THAT'S WHAT HELPED ME GET A IT.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH HIS THINKING?

>> THERE'S A FEW THINGS WRONG.

IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT WHAT HE SAID ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL TRANSLATE TO ANY PARTICULAR POLICY PROPOSAL AT ALL.

IN IT SENSE IT IS SET TO GET RID OF TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

THAT IS NOT A MORAL, ETHICAL OR LAWFUL POLICY PROPOSAL.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CANNOT IGNORE CONSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURES FOR THE VARIOUS BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT NOT ONLY THAT, INFRINGE ON INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS OF TRANSGENDER PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> I WANT TO SPEND A COUPLE MINUTES ON AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CALLED PROTECTING CHILDREN FROM CHEMICAL AND SURGICAL MUTILATION THAT DANCE GENDER AFFIRMING CARE TO CHILDREN.

JUST TO SET THE TABLE FOR MOST PEOPLE THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT GENDER AFFIRMING CARE MEANS, EXPLAIN.

>> WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT BANS THE USE OF PUBERTY BLOCKERS AND HORMONE THERAPIES AND A SMALL SUBSET OF SURGERIES FOR TRANSGENDER PEOPLE UNDER THE AGE OF 19.

I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT.

IT IS NOT JUST BAN THESE TREATMENTS FOR MINORS BUT ALSO 18-YEAR-OLDS AS WELL.

THOUGH THE ORDER IS FRAMED AS ENDING SO-CALLED MUTILATION OF CHILDREN, THERE IS NOTHING MUTILATING ABOUT THIS MEDICAL CARE.

IT IS SUPPORTED AND RECOMMENDED BY EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL ASSOCIATION IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS ONLY PROVIDED WHEN THE ADOLESCENT, PARENTS AND DOCTOR RECOMMEND THE CARE OR IN THE CASE OF AN 18-YEAR-OLD THE 18- YEAR-OLD AND THEIR DOCTOR.

IT IS HORMONES THAT ARE PRESCRIBED ROUTINELY TO PEOPLE FOR MANY PURPOSES INCLUDING GENDER AFFIRMING PURPOSES FOR WHICH TRANSGENDER PEOPLE NEED TREATMENT.

YOU COULD HAVE A NON- TRANSGENDER BOY THAT NEEDS TESTOSTERONE BECAUSE OF DELAYED PUBERTY.

HE'S 14, HIS PEERS ARE DEVELOPING.

BUT A TRANSGENDER BOY IS 14 YEARS OLD AND HIS PEERS ARE DEVELOPING AS BOYS CANNOT RECEIVE TESTOSTERONE TREATMENT FOR THE SAME REASONS TO UNDERGO A MALE PUBERTY LIKE HIS PEERS.

DISORDER NOT ONLY IS IT ATTEMPTING TO RESTRICT THE ABILITY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO PAY FOR THE CARE, IT IS FAR MORE EXPANSIVE THAN THAT.

WHAT IT IS SAYING IS IT WILL THREATEN THE FUNDING TO ANY INSTITUTION IN THE UNITED STATES IF IT PROVIDES THIS CARE USING ANY FUNDING.

IF ESTATE IS FUNDING THE CARE IN A STATE HOSPITAL BUT RECEIVES FEDERAL FUNDING FOR OTHER PURPOSES THEY ARE AT RISK OF LOSING ALL OF THEIR FUNDING.

IN ESSENCE HOLDING THE ENTIRE HEALTH SYSTEM HOSTAGE AND SAYING HE MUST STOP TREATING TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

THAT'S A LOT OF WHAT WE ARE SEEING TRYING TO USE POLICY PREFERENCES TO SHUT OFF ESSENTIAL CARE AND SERVICES THAT PEOPLE NEED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> HEART OF THAT EXECUTIVE ORDER ALSO GETS A LITTLE BIT TO THIS IDEA THAT THERE ARE CHILDREN WHO SOON REGRET THIS.

THE PHRASE THE ADMINISTRATION USED IS THE COUNTLESS CHILDREN SOON REGRET THAT THEY HAVE BEEN, QUOTE, MUTILATED.

THERE WAS A STUDY IN THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION THAT SHOWED ONLY 4% OF TRANSGENDER TEENS PURSUING THIS TYPE OF MEDICAL CARE EXPRESSED REGRET.

THERE'S ALSO A STUDY OUT THERE THAT REVEALED 30% OF ADULTS WHO BEGAN GENDER RELATED HORMONE TREATMENTS ULTIMATELY DISCONTINUED THEM.

CAN BOTH OF THOSE REALITIES COEXIST?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THEY ARE ASKING DIFFERENT QUESTIONS.

THE FIRST IS ASKING WHETHER PEOPLE REGRET TREATMENT.

EVERY SINGLE STUDY FOUND THAT THE RATE OF REGRET OF THIS TREATMENT IS NOT ONLY EXTREMELY LOW, IT IS ALSO COMPARATIVELY MUCH LOWER THAN MANY OTHER FORMS OF MEDICAL TREATMENT THAT ARE PROVIDED IN THE PEDIATRIC AND ADULT CONTEXT.

THE OTHER STUDY REFERENCED WHICH IS 30% OF ADULTS, THAT IS JUST ONE STUDY, DISCONTINUE HORMONE TREATMENT.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS REGRETTING TREATMENT.

THERE ARE MANY REASONS PEOPLE WILL STOP RECEIVING HORMONE TREATMENT.

ONE IS THAT THEY ARE WHOLLY SATISFIED WITH THE WAY IN WHICH THE TRANSITION HAS PROGRESSED.

THEY DO NOT HAVE A NEED FOR TREATMENT.

LIKELY CONTINUE TO IDENTIFY AS TRANSGENDER AND DO NOT REGRET THE TREATMENT AT ALL.

OTHER PEOPLE CAN NO LONGER AFFORD IT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTH INSURANCE.

WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT CONSISTENTLY MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO ACCESS MEDICAL CARE.

THEY ARE LOOKING AT DIFFERENT QUESTIONS BUT THE GOVERNMENT MADE A LOT OF ALLEGATIONS ABOUT WHAT IS TRUE ABOUT THIS CARE.

THEY HAD EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND THEY PUT IN NO EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THERE IS A HIGH RATE OF REGRET, THAT THESE TREATMENTS ARE INEFFECTIVE.

>> THERE WAS A RECENT STUDY THAT LOOKED AT HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE ACTUALLY GETTING THIS.

IT WAS 1/10 OF 1%.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLY MINUTE POPULATION, YET YOU ARE VERY WELL AWARE THAT THERE'S, 26 STATES THAT HAVE LAWS ON THE BOOKS THAT ARE BANNING GENDER AFFIRMING CARE.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING.

YOU SEE IT WITH RESPECT TO THE EXTRAORDINARILY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT RECEIVE THIS CARE.

THE EXTRAORDINARILY SMALL NUMBER OF TRANS-ATHLETES.

IN THE NCAA WE HEARD FROM CHARLIE BAKER THAT IT IS LESS THAN 10.

THAT INCLUDES TRANS WOMEN AND TRANS MEN OUT OF 510,000 ATHLETES.

WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS AN OUTSIZED FIXATION ON AN EXCEEDINGLY SMALL POPULATION THAT IS BEING USED TWO-STROKE FEAR IN PEOPLE THAT DO NOT KNOW TRANS PEOPLE AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND TRANS- PEOPLE.

THAT IS CAUSING PEOPLE TO REACT IN SUPPORT OF DISCRIMINATORY POLICIES.

AT THE END OF THE DAY AS HARMFUL AS THEY ARE FOR TRANS PEOPLE, AND THEY ARE VERY HARMFUL, THEY WILL OPEN THE DOOR TO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST SO MANY OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

>> I CAME ACROSS SOMETHING STARTLING THAT I HAD NOT HEARD ABOUT WHICH WAS A STUDY SHOWING A CAUSAL LINK OF INCREASED SUICIDE ATTEMPTS AND STATES AFTER THEY PASSED ANTI-TRANS LOSS.

AND YET, I BRING THIS UP BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE AN OPEN QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT THIS CATEGORY OF PEOPLE ARE LIVING THROUGH ANY SORT OF MEASURABLE HARM.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT EVEN CAME UP, I GUESS THIS IS TO BURNISH YOUR LEGAL CREDENTIALS, WHEN YOU WERE ARGUING IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT IN A RECENT CASE ABOUT TENNESSEE.

THAT WAS A GROUP OF FAMILIES AND A MEDICAL PROVIDER.

WHAT IS AT STAKE IN THAT CASE AND IN THAT QUESTION THAT SOME OF THE JUSTICES WERE POSING?

>> THIS IS A CASE THAT ASKS WHETHER OR NOT ESTATE CAN CONSTITUTIONALLY BAN TRANS -- GENDER AFFIRMING MEDICAL CARE FOR PEOPLE UNDER 18.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER SUCH A BAN THAT WAS DEFINED AS A BAN ON MEDICAL TREATMENT INCONSISTENT WITH A PERSON'S SEX AS A FORM OF SEX DISCRIMINATION.

THAT'S THE CENTRAL QUESTION.

THE HARMS AT ISSUE EXTEND TO HUNDREDS OF TRANSGENDER PEOPLE IN TENNESSEE AND AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO RELY ON THIS MEDICAL CARE.

AS OUR CLIENT >> CASE TESTIFIED AND MANY OTHER CASES HAVE TESTIFIED IT'S ONLY BEEN THROUGH THE PROVISION OF THESE CARE THAT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO THRIVE AND SEE A FUTURE FOR THEMSELVES.

IT'S ONLY THROUGH THE PROVISION OF THIS CARE THAT THEIR PARENTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FINALLY SEE THEIR CHILDREN HAPPY, JOYFUL AND HOPEFUL ABOUT THE FUTURE.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS COME IN AND OVERWRITTEN THE DECISION OF THESE KIDS AND THEIR PARENTS TO BAN THIS MEDICAL TREATMENT.

THE DATA SHOWS THAT TAKEN AWAY THIS MEDICAL CARE IS HARMFUL.

IT CAUSES DISTRESS, ANXIETY, DEPRESSION AND SUICIDALITY.

OUR OPPONENTS FIXATE ON THIS ARGUMENT THAT THEY MAKE WHICH IS THAT THE STUDIES THEMSELVES DO NOT SHOW AN INCREASED RATE IN COMPLETED SUICIDE.

THAT IS TRUE.

THE STUDIES DO NOT SHOW AN INCREASED RATE IN COMPLETED SUICIDE.

THE REASON IS BECAUSE COMPLETED SUICIDE IS GENERALLY RARE AND THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A STUDY WHETHER IT IS 50 PEOPLE OR 300 PEOPLE, THE HOPE IS THAT NOBODY HAS A COMPLETED SUICIDE IN ANY GROUP WITHIN THE STUDY.

WHAT THE STUDIES DO SHOW CONSISTENTLY IS THAT THE MEDICAL TREATMENT DECREASES INCIDENCE OF SUICIDALITY AND INDEPENDENT RESEARCH SHOWS THAT DECREASES IN SUICIDALITY DECREASE COMPLETED SUICIDES.

THE FACT THAT WE ARE GETTING INTO THE DEBATE WHETHER A COMPLETED SUICIDE IS IN METRIC OF WHETHER SOMETHING WORKS IS A HORRIBLE PLACE TO BE.

>> I WANT TO POINT TO A COUPLE THINGS JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH SAID.

HE SAID WHILE THERE WERE FORCEFUL ARGUMENTS TO ALLOW THE MEDICAL TREATMENTS 20+ STATES PUT FORWARD ARGUMENTS ON THE OTHER SIDE.

HOOKING UP THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT TAKE SIDES ON HOW TO RESOLVE THAT MEDICAL AND POLICY DEBATE.

THE CONSTITUTION IS NEUTRAL ON THE QUESTION.

HE GOES ON TO SAY IT SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

>> THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT NEUTRAL ON WHETHER OR NOT IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST A GROUP OF PEOPLE BASED ON A PROTECTED CHARACTERISTIC.

THE EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE CANNOT BE CLEAR THAT EACH PERSON IS EQUALLY PROTECTED UNDER THE LAW.

THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST SOMEONE BASED ON A PROTECTED CHARACTERISTIC LIKE RACE OR SEX.

CERTAINLY THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT NEUTRAL.

ANYTIME THERE'S A ROBUST POLICY DEBATE IF THAT'S HOW THE JUSTICES OR OTHERS WANT TO FRAME , THAT POLICY DEBATE CANNOT PROCEED IN WAYS THAT TREAT PEOPLE UNEQUALLY.

THAT IS WHAT THE CONSTITUTION TELLS US.

THAT THERE IS STRONG PROTECTIONS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS FOR THAT TO BE.

IT IS LIMITED BY THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS OF THE CONSTITUTION.

IT MAKES VERY VERY CLEAR.

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE WAY THINGS WORK.

YOU COULD SAY THERE WAS A ROBUST DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER IT SHOULD BE LAWFUL TO BAN INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE.

THERE WAS A ROBUST POLICY DEBATE OVER WHETHER OR NOT WOMEN SHOULD BE BARTENDERS.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS WERE SUBJECT TO DEMOCRATIC DEBATE.

THE QUESTION WAS WHETHER THEY USE CLASSIFICATIONS THAT THE COURT THOUGHT SUSPECT AND IMPERMISSIBLE IN THE END.

>> THE PRESIDENT ALSO SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER KEEPING MEN OUT OF WOMEN'S SPORTS AT AN EVENT SURROUNDED BY YOUNG FEMALE ATHLETES.

HE SAID MEN ARE POSING AS WOMEN .

AS WE DISCUSSED IN THIS CONVERSATION IT'S AN INCREDIBLY SMALL NUMBER OF ATHLETES OUT OF THE HALF 1 MILLION OR SO, BUT THE NCAA CHANGE THEIR POLICY AS A RESULT ALMOST THE NEXT DAY.

I AM WONDERING WAS THE NCAA WRONG TO COMPLY WITH THE ORDER?

>> CERTAINLY THEY WERE WRONG TO CHANGE THEIR POLICY.

I DON'T THINK THEY WERE NECESSARILY COMPLYING WITH THE ORDER BECAUSE AT THAT TIME IT HAD NO LEGAL EFFECTS.

IT MAY HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE BUT THE NCAA WAS WRONG.

THE POLICY THAT ARE CLAIMING THAT TRANSGENDER WOMEN IN SPORTS OR MEN ARE WRONG.

THE PRESIDENT IS LYING WHEN HE SAYS THERE ARE MEN IMPERSONATING WOMEN AND PARTICIPATING IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

THERE ARE NO EXAMPLES OF MEN IMPERSONATING WOMEN THAT I'M AWARE OF.

IT IS INCORRECT TO REFER TO TRANSGENDER WOMEN AND GIRLS AS MEN AND BOYS.

WHAT THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS TO, WHAT THESE LAWS DO IS OPEN THE DOOR TO SEX-BASED POLICING WHICH CANNOT BE ENFORCED WITHOUT SUBJECTING EVERYONE TO SOME SORT OF SCRUTINY, SOME SORT OF INVASIVE PROCESS THAT WILL HARM US ALL.

>> THERE WAS A RECENT NEW YORK TIMES POLL THAT WAS ASKING AND FOUND THAT 80% OF AMERICANS THINK TRANS FEMALE ATHLETES SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO COMPETE IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

I GUESS, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE THAT ARGUE THAT THE PRESIDENT IS LISTENING TO THE POPULATION AND RIGHT ON THIS.

>> I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS.

THE FIRST IS THAT WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s THAT HOW MANY PEOPLE THOUGHTPEOPLE SHOULD NOT GET MARRIED.

IF YOU POSE THAT QUESTION NOW IT IS VASTLY DIFFERENT.

WHAT CHANGED WAS THAT PEOPLE WERE EXPOSED TO ACCURATE INFORMATION ABOUT A PEOPLE.

NOT ANITA BRIAN STYLE CAMPAIGNS ABOUTPEOPLE HARMING CHILDREN, BUT REAL STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE LIVING THEIR LIVES.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT EVEN IF THAT IS TRUE, EVEN IF 80% OF THE COUNTRY BELIEVES SOMETHING, IF IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND WRONGLY DISCRIMINATORY, THAT IS THE GUARANTEE, THAT IS THE PROMISE OF THIS COUNTRY THAT WE HAVE A SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES THAT ENSURES THAT THOSE THAT ARE FACING DISCRIMINATION HAVE A RESOURCE IN THE COURTS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN SUPPORT OF PREVENTING WOMEN FROM HOLDING CERTAIN JOBS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE IN SUPPORT OF MAKING IT A CRIME TO MARRY OUTSIDE OF YOUR RACE.

YET THE COURTS HAVE STEPPED IN TO ENSURE THE PROMISE OF THE CONSTITUTION IS ACTUALIZED.

I WOULD SAY WE WANT THAT SYSTEM.

I WANT THAT SYSTEM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>> MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A.

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