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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
10,000 PEOPLE ARE SCRAMBLING TO GET TO THE TOP OF TREES AND ROOFTOPS.
AFRICA'S KILLER CYCLONE.
1,000 FEARED DEAD.
NEIGHBORS ARE AFFECTED, TOO.
WE GET AN UPDATE FROM GROUND ZERO AND THE CLIMATE CHANGE CONNECTION.
PLUS --
THERE'S NO SHAME.
THE UGLY REALITY OF TERRORISM.
NEW ZEALAND MOURNS.
WE LOOK BACK AT THE DEADLY ATTACK ON MUMBAI IN A MOVIE.
NO MATTER WHAT VERSION OF HELL WE IMPLEMENT THROUGH POLICY AT THE BORDER, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ENDURE IT TO GET TO THE OTHER SIDE.
FORMER BORDER PATROL AGENT FRANCISCO TATSU LENDS HIS EXPERIENCE TO THE ISSUE OF OUR TIME.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
MOZAMBIQUE BEGINS THREE DAYS OF NATIONAL MOURNING TODAY AFTER WHAT'S BEEN CALLED ONE OF THE WORST WEATHER RELATED DISASTERS IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE EVER.
A CYCLONE RIPPED ACROSS SOUTHEASTERN AFRICA AND STILL THE DEATH TOLL IS RISING.
HUNDREDS ARE CONFIRMED DEAD.
THE PRESIDENT SAYS HE FEARS MORE THAN 1,000 MAY HAVE PERISHED WHEN ALL ARE COUNTED.
IT'S NOT JUST MOZAMBIQUE THAT'S AFFECTED.
TENS OF THOUSANDS ARE IN DANGER IN ZIMBABWE.
AND TO THE WEST AND NORTH, BOTH ARE LANDLOCKED COUNTRIES NOT USED TO THE CYCLONES.
THE RAINFALL SHOWN IN THIS MAP HAS CREATED WHAT HUMANITARIAN WORKERS ARE CALLING INLAND OCEANS.
JAMIE IS AN EMERGENCY OPERATIONS MANAGER FOR THE RED CROSS WHO SPOKE TO US BY PHONE ABOUT THE UNFOLDING DISASTER FROM THE WORST HIT CITY.
THAT'S WHERE COMMUNICATIONS ARE UNDERSTANDABLY EXTREMELY UNRELIABLE.
THIS IS HIS REPORT.
IT'S HARD TO ESTIMATE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN DANGER AT THIS STATE.
WE KNOW THAT THERE'S MANY.
THEY ARE MAINLY IN THIS AREAS WEST OF US.
THE ASSESSMENT SHOWED THAT FOOTBALL STADIUMS WERE FULL OF PEOPLE AND THAT ON TOP OF HOUSES THERE WERE CLUSTERS OF PEOPLE REQUESTING ASSISTANCE FROM THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS.
WE CAN'T GIVE YOU NUMBER.
WE CAN SAY THERE'S AN IMMEDIATE NEED.
SEARCH AND RESCUE IS WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN GO OUT AND SAVE THOSE PEOPLE.
ONE OF THE CHALLENGES, OF COURSE, IS THE WEATHER.
THE WEATHER CONTINUES TO NOT BE FAVORABLE FOR US.
IT IMPACTED SOME FLIGHTS.
AS I MENTIONED, THE TEAMS ARE ON THE GROUND 100% OF THE TIME TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE GETTING PEOPLE BACK AND IN SAFETY AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE.
ACCESSIBILITY HAS BEEN A CHALLENGE FROM DAY ONE.
WE WERE HERE BEFORE THE CYCLONE.
WE WERE READY TO GO.
THE MOMENT WE FOUND A WAY IN, ROADS WERE COMPLETELY DEVASTATED FOR ALL ACCESS.
THIS REQUIRES US TO MOVE IN BY HELICOPTER.
RIGHT NOW, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY IN VIA AIR AND BY THE SEAPORT.
THIS HAS BEEN A MAJOR CHALLENGE GETTING AID IN.
BECAUSE THE AIRPORT IS OPEN, IT'S GIVEN US AN ACCESS POINT.
THE CHALLENGE STILL REMAINS IN THE FLOOD AFFECTED AREA.
WE CANNOT GET MANY CARS IN THERE.
WE'RE RELYING ON DROPS FROM HELICOPTERS IN ORDER TO SUPPORT THE EFFECTED POPULATION IN THE FLOOD AFFECTED AREAS.
THE FOR ME, THIS IS THE MOST -- THIS IS THE LARGEST EMERGENCY OPERATION I HAVE BEEN ON PERSONALLY.
IT HAS BEEN EXTENSIVE FOR ALL OF US.
WE'RE ALL WORKING TOGETHER AS A HUMANITARIAN COLLECTIVE TO ADDRESS.
BUT IT'S IMMENSE IN ITS MAGNITUDE.
WHAT WE WANT THE WORLD IS KNOW THE RED CROSS AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ARE HERE TO SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT OF MOZAMBIQUE IN SUPPORTING THE EFFECTED COMMUNITY, PROVIDING RELIEF ASSISTANCE, PROVIDING IMMEDIATE SEARCH AND RESCUE AND HELPING THEM TO REGAIN THEIR FOOTING IN THIS AWFUL DISASTER.
WE ARE EXPECTING TO BE HERE FOR SOME TIME TO SUPPORT THIS INITIATIVE AND HAVE LAUNCHED AN EMERGENCY APPEAL TO DO THAT.
WE ARE HERE AND WE ARE READY AND WE'RE GOING TO BE HERE WITH THE LOCAL RED CROSS TO SUPPORT THESE PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS THEY NEED US.
IT'S HARD TO SAY HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE.
THROUGH OUR LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS, THROUGH THE RED CROSS, FOR INSTANCE, THE RED CROSS IN MOZAMBIQUE, WE HAVE AN ENTRY POINT TO SUPPORT THESE PEOPLE FOR MANY YEARS.
BUT WE HOPE IT WON'T GO FOR MUCH LONGER THAN THE IMMEDIATE RESCUE PHASE.
WE CAN START WORKING ON RECOVERY.
OUR PLANNING EFFORTS AT THIS STAGE ARE NOT JUST LIFE SAVING.
WE'RE LOOKING MONTHS DOWN THE ROAD TO SUPPORT THEM FROM DAY ONE.
TO HEAR JAMIE TALK ABOUT IT BEING THE BIGGEST DISASTER HE WORKED ON IN A CONTINENT THAT IS VERY, VERY FAMILIAR WITH DISASTERS, PUTS IT INTO CONTEXT.
CLIMATE SCIENTISTS ARE ALWAYS WARY OF CONNECTING ANY ONE STORM TO CLIMATE CHANGE.
BUT THE PATTERN IS VERY CLEAR.
STORMS ARE BECOMING MORE VIOLENT AND MORE FREQUENT.
JUST AS THIS DEVASTATING CYCLONE HIT EAST AFRICA, FLOODING IS HAPPENING IN AMERICA'S MIDWEST.
THAT INUNDATED HUGE AREAS OF THE MISSOURI AND MISSISSIPPI RIVER BASIN.
A PRINCETON PROFESSOR HAS BEEN ON THE LEADING EDGE OF CLIMATE SCIENCE FOR DECDECADES.
HE IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.
YOU HAVE BEEN A MEMBER OF THE INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL OR CLIMATE CHANGE AND THAT WON THE NOBEL PRIZE IN 2007.
PROFESSOR, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CYCLONE IN TERMS OF ITS CONNECTION WITH THIS CHANGE IN CLIMATE?
WELL, THE CYCLONE HAS SOME OF THE CHARACTERISTICS WHICH ARE BECOMING VERY FAMILIAR IN TERMS OF WHAT HAPPENS TO CYCLONES.
THAT INCLUDES HURRICANES AND TYPHOONS IN THE CHANGING CLIMATE.
THESE STORMS ARE POWERED BY EVAPORATION OF WARM WATER FROM THE SURFACE OF THE OCEAN AS THE OCEAN HEATS UP.
WHAT THAT DOES IS POWER THESE STORMS TO HIGHER AND HIGHER LEVELS OF INTENSITY.
ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THAT HAPPENS IS THE MOISTURE, THE EXTRA MOISTURE IN THOSE STORMS GOES UP, DUMPS ITS EXTRA HEAT THAT MAKES A STORM MORE INTENSE AND THEN THE WATERFALLFALLS AS INTENSE RAINFALL.
WE ARE SEEING THAT DEVELOP IN THE NORTH -- IN NORTH AMERICA.
WE SEE IT DEVELOP WORLDWIDE.
I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF SCIENTISTS ARE ABLE TO SHOW SOON THAT CLIMATE CHANGE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS SPECIFIC VIOLENCE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS CYCLONE.
DO YOU THINK THE CYCLONE AND WHAT'S HAPPENING AS I MENTIONED IN THOSE RIVER BASINS IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW HAVE THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS?
YOU SAY BOTH ARE A PRODUCT OF THIS WARMING WATERS AND THE AIR AND THE INCREASING VIOLENCE AND FREQUENCY.
THERE ARE TWO THINGS ABOUT THE BIG FLOOD IN THE GREAT PLAINS THAT ARE ALSO CHARACTERISTIC OF A CHANGE IN CLIE THE MA.
ONE OF THEM IS THERE'S A LOT OF EXTRA MOISTURE IN THE ATMOSPHERE DUE TO EVAPORATION FROM THE OCEAN SURFACE.
THIS MOISTURE FEEDS PRECIPITATION IN A SITUATION WE'RE GOING TO HAVE HEAVY PRECIPITATION, WHICH WE HAD IN THE GREAT PLAINS OVER THE FEW WEEKS PRECEDING THE FLOOD.
THEN IN ADDITION, WE HAD AN EARLY MELT OF THE SNOW PACK.
THE COMBINATION OF AN EARLY MELT AND HEAVY PRECIPITATION IS WHAT'S CAUSING THE FLOOD AND AN EARLY AND INTENSE MELTING IS WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT IN A CHANGING CLIMATE.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS A VISION OF WHAT WE EXPECT IN THE FUTURE.
MORE VIOLENT STORMS, WORSE FLOODS.
AND IT'S JUST SORT OF ONE SET OF EXTREMES THAT WE EXPECT TO INCREASE IN THE CHANGING CLIMATE AND THAT HAVE ALREADY CHANGED.
FOR INSTANCE, AS WOULDN'T BE A SURPRISE IN A WARMER CLIMATE, YOU GET MORE EPISODES OF EXTREME HEAT.
EXTREME HEAT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO HUMAN HEALTH.
ALSO IN A WARMER CLIMATE, YOU EXPECT THE SEA LEVEL TO RISE.
SEA LEVEL HAS BEEN RISING.
IT'S DUE TO THE WARMED OCEAN.
IT'S DUE TO MELTING ICE FEEDING MORE WATER INTO THE OCEAN.
WHEN YOU GET A COASTAL STORM IN THE UNITED STATES LIKE, FOR INSTANCE, HURRICANE SANDY, THE FLOOD LEVEL GETS INTO PLACES IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEFORE.
PERHAPS THE KING OF ALL THESE EVENTS THAT HAVE THESE CHARACTERISTICS WAS HURRICANE HARVEY IN HOUSTON WHICH WAS SO INTENSE IN TERMS OF RAINFALL THAT IT JUST -- 50 INCHES OF RAINFALL IN ONE EPISODE, UNHEARD OF IN THE UNITED STATES.
AS YOU JUST KEEP MENTIONING, OBVIOUSLY, THIS DRAMATIC WEATHER AND THESE CHANGES ARE COMING HOME MORE AND MORE TO THE UNITED STATES.
IT'S NOT JUST SOME FAR FLUNG COUNTRY IN AFRICA OR IN THE FAR EAST OR WHATEVER.
IT'S REALLY HITTING HOME IN THE U.S. AS WELL.
JUST TO PUT NOT TOO FINE A POINT ON IT, OBVIOUSLY, FROM THESE CYCLONES, CLIMATE REFUGEES, WE COULD SEE THEY'RE ON THE MOVE.
THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ASPECT TO CLIMATE CHANGE, THE NOTION OF CLIMATE REFUGEES.
THEY'RE TRYING TO ESCAPE THE FLOODS, THE INLAND OCEANS AS THEY ARE BEING CALLED IN AFRICA.
THEY ARE THE POOREST -- SOME OF THE POOREST COUNTRIES.
I JUST WANT TO READ FOR YOU OR RUN FOR YOU A LITTLE INTERVIEW I DID WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF NEW ZEALAND.
OBVIOUSLY, SHE HAS HER HANDS FULL WITH ANOTHER DISASTER RIGHT NOW.
SHE'S ALSO VERY MINDFUL OF THE DISASTER THAT CLIMATE CHANGE COULD POSE FOR HER OWN COUNTRY.
JUST LISTEN.
THERE'S NO ABILITY TO OPT OUT FROM THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE.
WE FEEL THAT ACUTELY IN THE PACIFIC.
WE ARE MEMBERS OF THE PACIFIC.
OUR NEIGHBORS -- THIS IS NOT HYPOTHETICAL.
THIS IS REALITY ALREADY.
WE STILL HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO TRY TO ENSURE THAT WHEREVER IN THE WORLD AN INDIVIDUAL IS LIVING THAT THEY HAVE THE OPTION OF BEING ABLE TO PRESERVE THEIR CULTURE, LANGUAGE, THEIR PLACE, THEIR LAND AND SIMPLY CONCEDING THAT THE CYCLONE WAS ARRIVING AND THEY WILL BE UNINDATE INUND NOT WHAT THEY WANT US TO FIGHT FOR.
SHE'S VERY PASSIONATE AND VERY ARTICULATE.
ON THE DAY OF THIS TERRIBLE WHITE SUPREMACIST TERRORIST ATTACK IN HER COUNTRY, SHE WAS MEANT TO BE PARTICIPATING IN AND HAD STARTED IN A CLIMATE MARCH GOING ON IN NEW ZEALAND.
HURRICANE SEASON OR TORNADO SEASON IS JUST OPENING IN THE UNITED STATES.
WHAT CAN THE U.S. EXPECT?
ARE THE PEOPLE, AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED, BECOMING MORE IN TUNE AND MORE SENSITIVE TO THE PERILS OF CLIMATE CHANGE?
THERE IS INDICATION THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING TO REALIZE FINALLY THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT IS GETTING OUT OF OUR CONTROL.
WE NEED TO CUT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM, WHICH IS THE GREENHOUSE GASES GETTING INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, PRIMARILY CARBON DIOXIDE FROM BURNING COAL, OIL AND NATURAL GAS.
THE PROBLEM IS SIMPLY GOING TO GET WORSE UNTIL WE CAN REDUCE -- AND I MEAN SHARPLY REDUCE THOSE EMI EMISSIONS.
ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO GET BACK TO IN TERMS OF THE PREVIOUS POINTS IS THAT THIS ISN'T JUST SPECULATION WHAT WE THINK IS HAPPENING NOW.
IN THE CASE OF SEVERAL OF THESE SORTS OF EVENTS, PARTICULARLY HURRICANE HARVEY, THE INTENSITY OF THE RAINFALL, THE INTENSITY OF THE STORM HAS BEEN TIED TO THE BELUILDUP OF THE GREENHOUSE GAS.
THIS IS SOMETHING WE KNOW IS HAPPENING WHERE THE SCIENCE IS PROVEN.
AS WE GO INTO THE FUTURE -- AS WE GO INTO THE CURRENT HURRICANE SEASON, WE HAVE TO ALL BE ALERT.
WE HAVE BEEN BEHIND THE EIGHT BALL.
WE'RE NOT PREPARED.
WE DON'T REALIZE THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN THAT WE'RE NOT USED TO.
EVERYBODY HAS TO BE ON THE ALERT.
WHEN GOVERNMENTS SAY IT'S TIME TO EVACUATE, YOU DON'T WAIT AROUND.
YOU GO.
WHEN IN ADVANCE THE LOCAL CITY OR YOUR STATE SUGGESTS THAT YOU SHOULD BE MAKING SURE THAT YOUR PROPERTY IS SECURE, THAT IF YOU ARE BUILDING A HOUSE, IT'S UP TO HURRICANE STANDARDS, THAT IF YOU ARE BUILDING, THAT AVOID BUILDING IN THE COASTAL ZONE, FOR INSTANCE, WHERE PROPERTY VALUES ARE NOT GROWING VERY FAST ANYMORE.
BECAUSE OF THE FLOOD RISK THAT'S INCREASING DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE.
EVERYONE BE AWARE OF THAT BEFORE DISASTERS STRIKE.
OBVIOUSLY, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RICH WORLD, WHICH MIGHT HAVE OPTIONS.
IN PLACES LIKE MOZAMBIQUE, THEY CAN'T CHOOSE WHERE TO LIVE.
TO THAT POINT, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE CURRENT ED AMI AMINUTEADMINISTRATOR IN THE EPA SAID UNSAFE DRINKING WATER, NOT CLIMATE CHANGE, POSES THE GREATEST RISK TO HUMANITY BECAUSE THREATS FROM CLIMATE CHANGE ARE 50 TO 75 YEARS AWAY.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
WHEN WE SEE THESE DISASTERS UNFOLDING.
IT'S A TOTALLY UNINFORMED STATEMENT.
IF WE ARE TO TAKE HIS WORDS LITERALLY, THEY MEAN THAT HE JUST BASICALLY DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CLIMATE CHANGE PROBLEM.
CLIMATE CHANGE IS LALREADY HERE.
IT'S CAUSING DAMAGE.
IT'S A DRAG ON THE ECONOMY.
IT'S KILLING PEOPLE IN SOME PLACES.
YOU MADE A POINT ABOUT WEALTHY COUNTRIES LIKE THE UNITED STATES BEING ABLE TO PREPARE AND COPE WITH PROBLEMS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE BETTER THAN POORER COUNTRIES.
THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
IN SOME PLACES, POORER COUNTRIES HAVE ACTUALLY DONE A BETTER JOB THAN THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE FOR ALL OUR WORTH -- OUR WEALTH, WE HAVE BEEN ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL.
THAT'S DUE TO BAD LEADERSHIP IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
WE NEED TO WAKE UP.
WE SEE SEVERAL STATES AND LOCALITIES DOING THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE NOT ONLY TO PREPARE FOR A POTENTIAL DISASTER AND CUT THE RISK, BUT TO CUT EMISSIONS SO THEY CAN MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO REDUCING THE CLIMATE CHANGE PROBLEM.
THE STATES AND CITIES ARE WAY AHEAD OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
THEY ARE WAY AHEAD.
WE HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THE FOLLOWER GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, JERRY BROWN AND OTHERS, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS IN THE U.S.
AND ALL OVER THE WORLD HAVE TO STEP UP.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WITH THE SO-CALLED GREEN NEW DEAL, THE ELECTION OF MORE PROGRESSIVE TO THE HOUSE, PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CLIMATE CHANGE, TO THE BIG MARCHES THAT THE KIDS ARE HAVING AROUND THE WORLD, DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO HAVE A POLITICAL IMPACT AND MAKE A CHANGE WHEN IT COMES TO THE TOP LEVELS OF FEDERAL POLICY?
AS YOU SAY, AROUND THE WORLD NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO STEP IN.
THEY HAVE TO OWN UP TO THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.
PEOPLE IN LOCAL COMMUNITIES CANNOT SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS.
ON THE POSITIVE SIDE -- I ALWAYS REMAIN OPTIMISTIC THAT THIS PROBLEM CAN BE SOLVED -- WE SEE INDIVIDUALS WANTING TO GET THE SITUATION CHANGED.
WE SEE THE YOUNG PEOPLE DEMANDING THAT PEOPLE IN MY GENERATION DO SOMETHING, BECAUSE WE SEEM TO HAVE MESSED UP BADLY.
I THINK IT IS A GENERATIONAL CHANGE.
THE MILLENNIALS AND FUTURE GENERATIONS ARE GOING TO ACT TO GET THIS PROBLEM SOLVES.
I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO BE VERY LONG BEFORE WE SEE VERY SERIOUS ACTION, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES BUT THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD.
THERE ARE PLACES LIKE PARTS OF EUROPE, EVEN IN CHINA, WHERE SERIOUS EFFORTS ARE BEING MADE TO TRY TO CUT EMISSIONS, NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFULLY, BUT THE EFFORTS ARE UNDERWAY.
AS I SAID, AT THE STATE LEVEL IN THE UNITED STATES.
WE SEE BIG REDUCTIONS IN THE COST OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, LIKE SOLAR AND WIND ENERGY.
THE TECHNOLOGIES ARE THERE.
FAILING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM OF NOT ENOUGH TECHNOLOGY.
IT'S NOT A PROBLEM OF IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE.
IT'S A PROBLEM OF POLITICAL WILL OR THE LACK THEREOF.
ALL RIGHT.
PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
WE DO HOPE THAT CHANGE IS COMING.
THE U.N. IS ESTIMATED THAT THERE MAY BE 200 MILLION CLIMATE REFUGEES.
IT IS A SLOW MOVING, MAN-MADE DISASTER, HAVING LARGER IMPACTS ALL THE TIME.
EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE LIKE THIS PAST WEEK, WE'RE REMINDED IN THE STARKEST WAY OF OUR OWN HUMAN ABILITY TO DO HORRIFIC DAMAGE TO ONE ANOTHER.
AS I MENTIONED, THE DISASTER IN NEW ZEALAND.
FUNERALS HAVE BEGUN TODAY FOR THE 50 WORSHIPERS WHO WERE KILLED IN TWO MOSQUES.
IT COMES AS A NEW FILM TAKES A REALISM APPROACH TO RETELLING THE STORY OF ANOTHER MASSACRE BY PAKISTANI TERRORISTS.
THAT WAS IN 2008.
HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER OF 'HOTEL MUMBAI.'
TURN OFF THE LIGHTS.
UNDER THE TABLE.
TERRORISTS HAVE LAID SIEGE.
WITH AS MANY AS 1,000 GUESTS AND OVER 500 STAFF TRAPPED INSIDE.
WE SHOULD TRY TO GATHER WHOEVER WE CAN.
MANY OF YOU HAVE FAMILIES AT HOME.
THERE'S NO SHAME IN LEAVING.
I HAVE BEEN HERE 35 YEARS.
THIS IS MY HOME.
IT'S DIFFICULT TO WATCH GIVEN WHAT'S GOING ON.
SO HARD, IN FACT, THAT THE DISTRIBUTION COMPANY HAS TEMPORARILY PULLED THIS FILM FROM MOVIE THEATERS IN NEW ZEALAND.
THE FILM STARS ARMY HAMMER AND NANZANI BUNANI WHO IS A PROMINENT HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST.
THEY REVEAL THE DIFFICULT LINE THE FILM WALKED IN PORTRAYING BUT NOT EXCUSING PEOPLE WHO COMMITTED THESE TERRIBLE ATROCITIES.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANKS FOR HAVING US.
HERE WE HAVE A FILM.
IT'S THE FOURTH FILM ABOUT THE 2008 MUMBAI ATTACKS.
164 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.
FIRST AND FOREMOST, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO IT?
WHAT ATTRACTED YOU TO THE FILM?
THE THING THAT ATTRACTED ME WAS THE INCREDIBLE SCRIPT.
THIS FELT LIKE A VERY INTIMATE FIRST PERSON POINT OF VIEW INTO ONE OF THE MORE SORT OF ATROCIOUS TERROR ATTACKS THAT HAPPENED IN INDIA.
ALSO THE HUMANITY WITHIN THE SCRIPT.
EVEN THE HUMANITY FROM THE HOTEL GUESTS TO THE HOTEL STAFF TO EVEN THE GUNMEN AND PERPETRATORS.
YOU SEE THE TOLL THAT THESE EVENTS REALLY TOOK ON EVERYBODY.
I THOUGHT IT WAS BEAUTIFULLY TOLD.
I THINK THE HOTEL IS A MICR MICROCOSM.
YOU SEE PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE, DIFFERENT RELIGION, RACES COMING TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE AND ALL PHFACED WITH THE SAME HORRO.
THEY AHAVE TO SET ASIDE THEIR DIFFERENCES.
THAT RESONATED WITH ME.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.
OF COURSE, YOU TWO PLAY A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT ETHNIC BACKGROUNDS.
YOU ARE GOING TO THE HOTEL.
YOUR CHARACTER'S MOTHER IS CONNECTED AS A VIP TO THE HOTEL.
YOU ARE I BELIEVE HAVING DINNER AS THE TERROR ATTACK IS UNFOLDING.
YOUR SON OR YOUR CHILD IS IN THE ROOM.
THIS IS THE CLIP WE'RE GOING TO PLAY ABOUT THE MOMENT THAT UNFOLDS.
I LOVE YOU SO MUCH.
YOU NEED TO BELIEVE RIGHT NOW.
PLEASE, PLEASE.
DO YOU HAVE A FAMILY?
YES.
I HOPE TO STAY ALIVE AND SEE THEM.
I MEAN, IT'S QUITE CHILLING.
IT'S VERY CHILLING.
ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THIS TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE ATTACK THAT TOOK PLACE IN NEW ZEALAND.
IN THAT LAST BIT, YOU SEE A BODY IN THE HALLWAY.
JUST EXPLAIN WHAT'S GOING ON THERE.
YOU ARE GOING TO TRY TO SAVE YOUR SON WHO IS IN THE ROOM WITH HIS NANNY.
WHAT UNFOLDS BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR WIFE?
YEAH.
IT'S JUST SO GUT WRENCHING, ESPECIALLY AS A PARENT.
I'M THERE TRYING TO HAVE A NICE DIN DINNER WITH MY WIFE.
I HAVE TO MAKE THE DECISION, DO I STAY WITH MY WIFE OR DO I TRY TO GO GET MY SON TO PROTECT HIM?
KNOWING THE GUNMEN ARE GOING FROM ROOM TO ROOM AND BASICALLY EXTERMINATING PEOPLE.
IT'S A TERRIBLE PREDICAMENT TO BE IN.
I THINK OUR DIRECTOR TOLD US THAT THIS IS BASED ON SOMETHING THAT REALLY HAPPENED IN THE HOTEL, WHICH WAS A CONSCIOUS DECISION BY A COUPLE TO SEPARATE BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IN ONE PART OF THE HOTEL IS DESTROYED AND ONE DIES, AT LEAST THEIR CHILD ISN'T ORPHANED AND THE OTHER ONE SURVIVED.
IT'S LOOSELY BASED ON THAT.
WE'RE TALKING AND THE FILM IS BEING RELEASED IN OF AFTERMATH OF THIS ATTACK IN NEW ZEALAND, WHERE A GUY HAS A VIDEO CAMERA STRAPPED TO HIM.
HE STREAMS STUFF ONLINE.
HE IS ACCUSED OF MASS MURDER.
WE'RE NOT PLAYING ANY OF THE VIDEO THAT WAS RELEASED.
WE WON'T TOUCH IT.
AND YET, YOUR FILM DOES TOUCH THE ACTUAL VIDEO.
IT'S THE NEWS FOOTAGE THAT'S INT INTERSPLICED.
JUST TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT TODAY.
I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN USING THE NEWS COVERAGE OF AN ACTUAL EVENT AND ALLOWING THAT TO BRING PEOPLE BACK TO THE PLACE EMOTIONALLY THAT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY AND ALSO THE WORLD -- BECAUSE THIS WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TERROR ATTACKS THAT I CAN REALLY THINK OF THAT PLAYED OUT IN REAL TIME ON THE NEWS.
NORMALLY, IT'S A SHOOTING OR A BOMBING AND THEN YOU WITNESS THE AFTERMATH.
BECAUSE OF THE WAY THIS ATTACK HAPPENED, YOU AS A VIEWER OF THE NEWS WATCHED THIS UNFOLD.
I THINK THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND PLAYING SOMETHING THAT THIS GUY, THIS SICK INDIVIDUAL IN NEW ZEALAND INTENTIONALLY MADE TO GLORIFY WHAT HE WAS DOING.
AND TO ALMOST RECRUIT PEOPLE.
I'M SO HAPPY THAT NO ONE IN THE NEWS IS TOUCHING THOSE VIDEOS.
I'M VERY HAPPY NEW ZEALAND MADE POSSESSION OF THAT ILLEGAL.
I THINK HE IS TRYING TO DO THIS AS AN INSPIRATIONAL THING TO OTHER EXTREMISTS OUT THERE.
THEREFORE, I THINK THAT EVERYBODY HAS MADE THE RIGHT DECISION NOT TO GIVE HIM THAT PLATFORM.
AGAIN, IT'S A REALLY -- IT'S A REALLY TOUGH BUSINESS.
WHAT WE SAW IN MUMBAI -- I REMEMBER IT LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY.
WE WERE ALL GLUED TO OUR TV SCREENS.
ALL OUR COLLEAGUES WERE REPORTING IT FROM THE GROUND.
IT LASTED DAYS.
164 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.
PEOPLE WENT DOOR TO DOOR.
IT WAS SAVAGE.
THIS WAS MUSLIMS ATTACKING THIS HOTEL.
SGLI
YES, THEY WERE MUSLIMS BUT THEY WERE PART OF A VERY EXTREMIST LEANING GROUP.
EXACTLY.
I DON'T THINK -- IT WAS A NICHE GROUP OF PEOPLE.
WE DON'T CONSIDER THEM -- THEY'RE NOT AVERAGE MUSLIMS.
YOU ARE RIGHT, THEY WERE EX EXTR EXTREMISTS, FUNDAMENTALISTS.
THEY WERE PAKISTANI-BASED.
WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE EQUAL AND OPPOSITE HAS HAPPENED IN NEW ZEALAND.
ISLAMAPHOBIA HAS NOW GIVEN RISE TO THIS WHITE NATIONALISM.
IT'S BECOMING THE TERRORISM THAT WE HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH TODAY.
I WONDER, YOU COME FROM IRAN.
YOUR FAMILY IS PRESUMABLY MUSLIM.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU PRACTICE OR NOT.
IT'S IMMATERIAL.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE SHIFTS AND ALMOST TANDEM EQUAL BUT OPPOSITE REACTIONS AND THIS MASS MURDER IN THE NAME OF RELIGION OR SUPREMACY?
THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
I BELIEVE EXTREMIST BREEDS EXTREMISM.
I THINK AT ITS CORE, OUR FILM IS CONDEMNATION OF EXTREMISM.
I THINK IN THAT SENSE, IT'S EXTREMELY TIMELY AND IMPORTANT.
I THINK -- WHEN WE THINK ABOUT RADICALIZATION, THE CORE OF RADICALIZATION OR THE ROOT OF IT IS LACK OF EDUCATION AND JUST ABJECT POVERTY.
YOU NEED SUNLIGHT -- IT'S THE BEST DISINFECTANT.
WHEN YOU HAVE FILMS LIKE OURS THAT SHOW THE HUMANITY AND THE ROOT OF PROBLEM, HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WHO WATCH WILL BE MOTIVATED AND UNSPIREINSPIRED TA SOLUTION.
WE NEED PEOPLE TO RISE OUT OF THIS SORT OF HOPELESSNESS THAT WE'RE IN AND TRY TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION.
ARMY, I WANT YOUR TAKE ON THIS.
I WONDER WHETHER YOU HAVE PLAYED A ROLE WHERE REALITY COLLIDES WITH FILM MAKING IN SUCH A VISCERAL WAY, WHETHER IT'S THE TERRORISM THAT WE SAW IN MUMBAI OR LAST WEEKEND OR WHETHER IT'S THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST WHO YOU HAVE SITTING NEXT TO YOU AND WHO IS YOUR CO-STAR.
NEVER TO THE DEGREE IT DOES IN THIS FILM.
IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING THIS FILM, THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WE MET WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE ATTACKS AS VICTIMS OR PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE OR WHO LOST FAMILY MEMBERS, COMING INTO CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO HAD THAT SORT OF -- WHO HAD THAT STRONG OF AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION TO THE STORY WE WERE TELLING WAS REALLY SORT OF A GROUNDING EXPERIENCE.
IT GAVE THE PROJECT A FEELING OF GR GR GRAVITY FOR US.
IT ENFORCED RESPECT THAT WE HAD TO BRING TO THE PROJECT.
I PLAYED REAL PEOPLE BEFORE.
I RECENTLY JUST PLAYED MARTIN GINSBURG WHO WAS JUSTICE GINSBURG'S HUSBAND.
IT DIDN'T HAVE THE SAME SORT OF EMOTIONAL IMPACT THAT MEETING PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY IN THIS ATTACK HAD.
I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT ROLE YOU PLAYED.
IT'S BEEN OUT.
IT IS A REMARKABLE FILM BECAUSE OF THE PORTRAYAL.
BUT AGAIN, THIS REAL LIFE STORY.
WHILE YOU ARE AN ACTIVIST FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS, SO WAS MARTIN GINSBURG.
HE GAVE HIS WIFE AND POINTED HER TO THE CASE THAT WOULD RESHAPE WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND PROPEL HER TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES.
HE IS AN EXTRAORDINARY CHARACTER.
WHAT WAS IT LIKE PLAYING THIS HEROIC MAN, THIS HEROIC WHITE MAN IN TODAY'S WORLD?
IT WAS AMAZING.
CHARACTERS LIKE MARTIN GINSBURG ARE ALMOST TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S EXPECTED FROM WHITE MEN THESE DAYS.
IT'S ALSO AN UNDERREPRESENTED CHARACTER IN FILM.
A TRULY SUPPORTIVE HUSBAND WHO BELIEVED SO MUCH IN THE MISSION OF HIS WIFE HE WAS WILLING TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO SORT OF BUTTRESS AND REINFORCE HER SUCCESS.
NOT ONLY DID HE BRING HER THAT CASE, HE WAS ALSO THE ONE WHO CHAMPIONED HER BEING ON THE SUPREME COURT.
HE SO TRULY BELIEVED THE WORK HIS WIFE WAS DOING WAS NECESSARY AND MADE IT HIS LIFE'S STATEMENT TO FACILITATE THAT.
I LOVE THAT.
I'M ALSO MARRIED TO A WOMAN WHO IS MUCH SMARTER AND MUCH DRIVEN AND MORE CAPABLE THAN I AM.
A LOT OF THAT ALSO RESPONDED AND RESONATED WITH ME.
THAT'S GREAT.
LET ME ASK YOU TO DELVE DOWN A LITTLE BIT OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE UNPOPULAR WHEN YOU SAID THIS FILM 'HOTEL MUMBAI' BECAUSE OF ITS RELIANCECTUALITY NOT JUST HUMANIZES THE VICTIMS BUT HUMANIZES THE GUNMEN.
WE SEE THE TRANSCRIPT.
WE HEAR HOW THE TERRORISTS WERE TALKING ABOUT THE FOOD IN THE HOTEL, TALKING ABOUT THE GRANDEUR OF THE SURROUNDINGS.
TALKING ABOUT FLUSHING TOILETS.
TELL ME HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT HUMANIZING THEM.
I THINK IT DEPENDS ON YOUR DEFINITION OF HUMANIZING.
IF YOU ARE SAYING JUSTIFYING THEIR ACTIONS, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT OUR FILM DOES.
I THINK IF YOU MEAN TREATING THEM AS HUMAN BEINGS, HUMAN BEINGS CAN DO EVIL THINGS.
THEY WERE HUMAN BEINGS WHO COMMITTED THESE CRIMES.
OR EVIL ACTS AND TERROR.
I FEEL LIKE THE BEAUTY OF THE FILM IS THAT THERE'S SO MUCH NUANCE AND LAYER TO EVERY PERSON IN THE FILM, EVERY CHARACTER.
MY CHARACTER, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN CONFRONTED, THERE'S A SCENE WHERE SHE'S CONFRONTED BY A GUNMAN.
MY CHARACTER IS MUSLIM.
I PERSONALLY HAVE MANY DEVOUT MUSLIM FAMILY MEMBERS IN MY LIFE.
I WOULD NEVER TAKE ON A PROJECT THAT TREATS IT WITH ANYTHING LIKE THIS WITH SORT OF DISRESPECT.
I LOVE THAT SCENE IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE WHEN SHE'S FACED WITH THE GUNMAN AND THEY'RE BOTH MUSLIM, I CALL IT THE YIN AND YANG OF FAITH.
MY CHARACTER USES PRAYER AND FAITH FOR SURVIVAL, FOR HOPE, FOR COURAGE.
THE GUNMEN USE IT TO INSTILL FEAR AND CAUSE DEATH.
I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TWO SIDES OF THE COIN, YOU REALIZE WATCHING OUR FILM THAT IT REALLY IS UP TO US AS INDIVIDUALS HOW WE CHOOSE TO LIVE OUR LIVES.
IT'S NOT REALLY THE FAITH.
IT'S HOW WE PERVERT IT THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
ONE THING YOU SEE IN OUR FILM WHICH I HAVE NEVER SEEN IN A MOVIE THAT DEALS WITH THIS SUBJECT MATTER IS THE GUNMEN ARE NOT NAMELESS, FACELESS KILLING MACHINES.
THEY ARE NAIVE, SCARED CHILDREN BEING MANIPULATED BY AN EXTREMIST IDEA AND COERCED INTO DOING THIS KIND OF THING AND LIED TO.
THERE'S A SCENE WHERE ONE OF THE GUNMEN CALLS HIS FAMILY BACK HOME AND SAYS, DID THEY SEND THE MONEY THAT THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO?
THE FATHER SAYS, NO, THEY DIDN'T.
THEY WORE THEY WERE GOING TO.
YOU SEE HOW PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO COMMIT EVIL ATROCITIES WILL USE FAITH IN ANY WAY THEY NEED TO MANIPULATE OTHER PEOPLE TO COMMIT THESE ATROCITIES.
IT'S REALLY DRAMATIC THE WAY IT'S PORTRAYED.
I WANT TO ASK AGAIN ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER AND PARTICULARLY WE'RE GOING TO PLAY A CLIP WITH DEV WHO PLAYS THE HOTEL WORKER.
WE JUST SAW HIM A LITTLE BRIEFLY IN THE PREVIOUS CLIP.
YOUR CHARACTER IS ACCUSED OF BEING ONE OF THEM BY AN OLDER, WHITE HOSTAGE.
THE SAME LADY SAYS SHE'S UNCOMFORTABLE BECAUSE OF HIS BEARD AND BECAUSE WHAT IT REPRESENTS AND HIS HEAD WRAP.
THIS IS THE CLIP.
THIS IS MINE.
IT'S A SECRET.
IT'S A SYMBOL OF HONOR AND COURAGE.
SINCE I WAS A SMALL BOY, I HAVE NEVER GONE OUTSIDE WITHOUT IT.
IT WOULD BRING SHAME TO MY FAMILY.
WHILE WE ARE IN THIS HOTEL, YOU ARE MY GUEST.
I AM YOUR STAFF.
IF IT WOULD MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE, I WILL TAKE IT OFF.
WOULD YOU LIKE THAT?
I'M JUST SCARED.
IT'S REALLY MOVING.
VERY, VERY MOVING, INDEED.
THAT SCENE DOES SUCH A GOOD JOB ABOUT THE STORY OF THE OTHER AND THEN WHAT FEAR DOES TO PEOPLE.
HOW IT PUSHES PEOPLE TO DO THINGS MAYBE THEY DON'T INTEND TO DO.
I JUST WANTED TO KNOW, KIND OF RELATED, WHAT IS IT LIKE BEING A MIDDLE EASTERNER, AN IRANIAN, MUSLIM TRYING TO WORK IN THE UNITED STATES IN WESTERN CINEMA?
DO YOU YOURSELF FACE STEREOTYPING?
SURE.
IT'S REALLY HARD TO BREAK OUT OF MOLDS AND BOXES THAT THEY -- HOLLYWOOD TRIES TO PUT YOU IN.
YOU KNOW, I THINK IN RECENT YEARS I HAVE HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE OF BEING CAST IN ROLES WHERE I FEEL NOT SO BOXED IN.
I JUST DID TWO SEASONS OF A FANTASTIC SHOW WHERE I PLAY CLAIRE.
SHE WAS TECHNICALLY THE ANTAGONIST IN THE FIRST SEASON.
BUT THERE WAS NO REFERENCE TO HER ETHNICITY OR RACE.
I PLAYED NORA BEFORE IN 'HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER.'
SHE WAS A LOVE INTEREST.
SHE'S A GIRL.
I HOPE FOR MORE ROLES LIKE THAT.
I THINK SHE HAPPENS TO BE IRANIAN BUT SHE'S NOT A CLEE SH CL CLICHE.
I FEEL LIKE IT'S CHANGING SLOWLY BUT SURELY.
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A DAY WHERE PEOPLE GET THEIR OWN 'CRAZY RICH ASIANS' OR 'BLACK PANTHER.'
ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION ABOUT YOUR HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISM.
I WANT YOU TO COMMENT ON A CASE WHICH IS EGREGIOUS, FOR DEFENDING WOMEN, SHE'S BEING SENTENCED, AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL TO 38 YEARS.
IT'S A LITTLE UNCLEAR.
IF SO, IT WOULD BE AN UNPRECEDENTED SENTENCE.
ALSO, WE HAVE HEARD THAT AN AMERICAN, MICHAEL WHITE, A U.S.
NAVY VETERAN WHO HAS BEEN HELD IN IRAN SINCE JULY HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO TEN YEARS.
HE WAS ACCUSED OF POSTING PHOTOS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS AND ATTACKING NATIONALS AND OTHERS, IT'S A BIG PROBLEM IN IRAN THESE DAYS.
ABSOLUTELY.
THE NEW HEAD OF THE JUDICIARY, WE'RE IN FOR A ROUGH ROAD AHEAD.
I HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING FOR HER RELEASE.
I THINK IT'S HORRIFIC THAT A PROMINENT HUMAN RIGHTS ATTORNEY WHO WAS JUST DOING HER JOB AND DEFENDING WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND CHILDREN'S RIGHTS IN IRAN IS FACING THIS HORRIFIC SENTENCE.
YOU SAID IT'S UNCLEAR.
IT'S UNCLEAR IF IT'S 38 YEARS RIGHT NOW.
IT SHOULDN'T BE ONE SINGLE DAY TO BE HONEST.
YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF FRANCE HAS BASICALLY PRAISED HER AND PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT HER WINNING A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.
YET THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT GAVE HER THIS SENTENCE.
IT SHOWS YOU HOW OPPRESSIVE THE GOVERNMENT IS.
ACTUALLY, IT'S ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST.
WE SEE SAUDI ARABIA WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.
IT'S A REAL ISSUE JUST WHEN WE THINK WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE MAKING STRIDES.
YOU SEE AN INCREASE D CRACKDOWN.
THANK YOU BOTH VERY, VERY MUCH.
THE FILM IS 'HOTEL MUMBAI.'
THANK YOU.
ON THE TOPIC OF HUMAN RIGHTS, WE TURN TO THE U.S./MEXICO BORDER CRISIS.
A THIRD GENERATION MEXICAN AMERICAN AND FORMER BORDER PATROL AGENT, AN UNLIKELY PAIRING DRIVEN BY HIS THIRST TO UNDERSTAND BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE.
HIS NEW BOOK DISPATCHES FROM THE BORDER, CHRONICLES THE BRUTALITY ALONG THE LANDSCAPE HE LOVES.
HE SHARED THE STORIES OF THE PEOPLE THAT HE MET ALONG THE WAY.
YOU DIDN'T BECOME A BORDER PATROL AGENT TO WRITE THIS BOOK.
YOU HAD AN INTERNATIONAL POLICY DEGREE.
YOU SAY YOU WANTED TO SEE HOW THE WORLD WORKS.
YOU WANTED TO SEE WHERE THIS POLICY ACTUALLY -- THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD.
WHAT HAPPENED?
THERE WAS A LOT NAIVETE BEHIND THE DECISION.
I IMAGINED I COULD JOIN THE BORDER PATROL AND DO THIS WORK FOR A FEW YEARS AND THEN SORT OF LEAVE WITH ALL THESE ANSWERS TO THIS BIG, COMPLEX PROBLEM BECAUSE I HAD SEEN IT FROM A PERSPECTIVE THAT PROBABLY NOT A LOT OF POLICY MAKERS HAVE SEEN IT FROM.
OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THE -- I THINK I ALSO MASSIVELY UNDERESTIMATED THE POWER OF THE INSTITUTION TO SORT OF BEND PEOPLE'S PURPOSES TOWARDS ITS WILL.
GOING THROUGH THE BORDER PATROL ACADEMY, IT'S MUCH LIKE ANY MILITARY OR LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING.
IT'S DESIGNED TO REBUILD YOU IN THE IMAGE OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENT.
ONE THING YOU MENTIONED IS LIVING NEAR THE BORDER MEANS BECOMING CONDITIONED TO A DEGREE OF MILITARIZATION AND SURVEILLANCE THAT WOULD CAUSE GREAT ALARM IN ANY OTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY.
EXPLAIN THAT.
YOU CAN'T DRIVE LONGER THAN 30 TO 40 MINUTES IN ANY DIRECTION ALONG THE BORDER WITHOUT GOING THROUGH A BORDER PATROL CHECK POINT AND BEING STOPPED IN YOUR CAR.
YOU KNOW, RACIAL PROFILING IS SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE TAUGHT NOT TO DO AT THE ACADEMY FROM -- BY THE BOOKS STANDPOINT.
IT'S REALLY ENGAGED IN PEOPLE.
I THINK THE BORDER PATROL TRAINING DOES VERY LITTLE TO ACTUALLY PREVENT IT HAPPENING IN ACTION AT THE MOMENT.
IT'S A VERY MILITARIZED SPACE.
I THIS THAT THAT MILITARIZATION, IT'S ALSO FENCING, THE NEWEST THING WHICH IS THE CLOSEST BORDER TOWN WHERE I LIVE IS SENSE THE MIDTERM ELECTION THERE HAS BEEN COILS OF WIRE, RAZOR WIRE, THAT YOU WOULD SEE AROUND A PRISON.
WHEN YOU GET OUT OF YOUR CAR TO GO WALK ACROSS THE BORTDDER, YO FEEL THAT YOU ARE IN A DANGEROUS PLACE.
THE BORDER IS ACTUALLY NOT ANY MORE DANGEROUS THAN AMERICA'S LARGE CITIES.
HE W EL PASO IS ONE OF AMERICA'S SAFEST CITIES.
WHAT WERE YOUR NOTIONS OF WHAT'S GOOD, WHAT'S BAD?
WERE THOSE CHALLENGED?
DID THAT CHANGE?
DID YOU START TO ACCEPT SOMETHING THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT WAS UNACCEPTABLE?
YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT GET LOST OUT IN THE DESERT AND THEY GET LEFT BEHIND BY THEIR GROUPS.
THEN THEY TRY TO WALK OUT TO A ROAD OR TO A VILLAGE TO GET PICKED UP.
JUST TAKE US HOME.
WE'RE LOST.
WE HAVE BEEN OUT HERE WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER FOR DAYS.
I ENCOUNTERED A HUSBAND AND WIFE IN THAT SITUATION.
I SHOWED UP AS THE JUNIOR AGENT ASSIGNED TO SHUTTLE PEOPLE BACK AND FORTH FROM THE STATION.
AS I WAS HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE I COULD SPEAK SPANISH, I WAS TALKING WITH THE HUSBAND.
HE SAID, MY WIFE, SHE SPEAKS FLUENT ENGLISH.
SHE GREW UP IN IOWA.
THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, I WAS HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IN ENGLISH WITH THIS WOMAN.
SHE SAID, YEAH, WAS A KINDERGARTEN TEACHER.
I WENT HOME BECAUSE A FAMILY MEMBER DIED.
SHE WAS PREGNANT.
SHE SAID THAT SHE WAS CROSSING THE BORDER BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO HAVE HER CHILD HERE BECAUSE SHE WANTED HER CHILD TO GROW UP LIKE SHE HAD GROWN UP IN THE UNITED STATES WITH ACCESS TO ALL THE FREEDOMS AND PRIVILEGES THAT SHE HAD.
I MADE A REALLY BIG EFFORT TO REMEMBER THEIR NAMES.
I ASKED THEM THEIR NAMES.
I INTRODUCED MYSELF.
BECAUSE THERE WAS A FEELING THAT YOU HAD AN EXCHANGE THAT WAS OUTSIDE OF THE NORMAL EXCHANGE YOU MIGHT HAVE THIS THOSE ROLLS OF ENFORCER.
YOU HAD TO TAKE THEM --
OF COURSE.
HER HUSBAND ASKED ME IF I COULD DO THEM A FAVOR AND BRING THEM DOWN TO THE BORDER AND LET THEM GO WITHOUT PUTTING THEM THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM AND BRINGING THEM BACK TO THE STATION AS A BROTHER.
AS A SPANISH SPEAKING PERSON WHO KNOWS OUR CULTURE AND FROM THE SAME BACKGROUND.
OF COURSE, I SAID, NO, I CAN'T DO THAT.
I HAVE TO TAKE YOU IN.
I REMEMBER JUST A FEW HOURS AFTER THAT ENCOUNTER, AFTER DROPPING THEM OFF, SITTING IN MY CAR AND TRYING TO REMEMBER THEIR NAMES.
I HAD ALREADY FORGOTTEN IT, IN THAT SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME.
FORGETTING SOMEONE'S NAME IS THE FIRST ACT IN DEHUMANIZING THEM.
I THINK ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MEDIA COVERAGE AROUND IMMIGRATION, IMMIGRANTS ARE ALWAYS REPRESENTED AS THE INDISTINGUISHABLE MASS OF PEOPLE.
THAT'S THREATENING THE NATION OR THAT'S SURGING AND OVERFLOWING AT OUR BORDERS.
YOU POINT OUT THAT IN YOUR VIEW, THE DESERT HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED AGAINST MIGRANTS.
YOU ARE SAYING THE NUMBER OF DEATHS, IT'S ALMOST BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS DESIGNED THAT WAY.
EXPLAIN THAT.
YEAH.
THERE'S A POLICY THAT WAS IMPLEMENTED UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION CALLED PREVENTION THROUGH DETERRENTS.
SO IN THE SORT OF LAID TE '80s, THEY HAD THIS TECHNIQUE WHERE AT THAT TIME YOU HAD A LOT OF -- MOST MIGRANT TRAFFIC WAS CROSSING THROUGH CITIES AND TOWNS ALONG THE BORDER.
SO THE BORDER PATROL RESPONSE WAS TO THROW A LOT OF MANPOWER RIGHT ALONG THE BORDER, STATIONING AN AGENT EVERY HALF A MILE FROM ONE ANOTHER.
IT COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN TRAFFIC AND PUSHED IT TO THE OUTSKIRTS OF TOWN, OUTSIDE OF THE PUBLIC EYE AWAY FROM CAMERAS, AWAY FROM CONCERNED VOTERS.
THE THINKING WAS AS THAT POLICY WAS ADAPTED INTO A NATIONAL POLICY, THAT THE DESERTS ARE SO REMOTE AND SO HOSTILE, THERE'S NO WATER, RUGGED MOUNTAINS, PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO RISK THEIR LIVES.
A NATURAL DISINCENTIVE.
AND A DETERRENT.
WHAT WE SAW AS SOON AS A FEW YEARS AFTER THIS POLICY WAS IMPLEMENTED, WAS A HUGE UPTICK IN THE NUMBER OF DEATHS THAT WERE OCCURRING IN THE DESERT IN PLACES LIKE WHERE I LIVE NOW.
I THINK IF THAT WAS AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE AT THE TIME, IT HAS NOW BEEN CONTINUED BY DESIGN.
THERE HAS BEEN A COMPLETE FAILURE OF POLITICAL WILL TO DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THAT SITUATION.
WE HAVE KNOWN THAT PEOPLE ARE DIEING IN THE DESERT NOW FOR DECADES.
WOULD A WALL WORK TO FIX THAT?
GUESS WHAT, IF WE CAN SLOW THE VOLUME OF PEOPLE, THEN WE WILL SLOW THE VOLUME OF PEOPLE DIEING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT.
I THINK ACTUALLY, A WALL HAS -- WALLS ALONG THESE BORDER TOWNS HAVE ACTUALLY EXACERBATED THERE PROBLEM.
THAT'S PART OF WHAT HAS CAUSED PEOPLE TO CROSS THROUGH MORE AND MORE DISTANT, REMOTE, OBSCURE AREAS.
SO YOU KNOW, IF YOU DID BUILD A WALL FROM SEA TO SHINING SEA, I THINK YOU WOULD ONLY SEE A CONTINUATION OF THIS.
YOU WOULD SEE PEOPLE CROSSING ON SHIPS AND BOATS.
LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING INNED MEDITERRANEAN.
M THAT MENTALITY CONTINUES.
IT HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR DECADES AND CENTURIES IF YOU LOOK AT WESTWARD EXPANSION AND MILITA MILITARIZATION.
YOU SPEND SEVERAL DOZEN PAGES CHRONICLING DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND HOW THEY EXPLOIT PEOPLE.
AREN'T THOSE PEOPLE THAT WE SHOULD BE FIGURING OUT A WAY TO KEEP OUT?
SURE.
BUT I THINK THAT OUR POLICIES HAVE REALLY EMBOLDENED A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE.
AS IT BECAME MORE DIFFICULT TO CROSS THE BORDER, IT BECAME MORE PR PROFITABLE TO TRAFFIC PEOPLE.
THESE DRUG CARTELS THAT HAD THE STRATEGIES FOR SMUGGLING DRUGS ACROSS THE BORDER UNSEEN REALIZE THAT THERE WAS NOW A LOT OF MONEY TO BE MADE IN DOING THE SAME THING WITH PEOPLE.
EVEN WITH CHILD SEPARATION, WHICH IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A DETERRENT-BASED POLICY, WE WILL MAKE IT HELL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO CROSS THROUGH THE BORDER, WE WILL SEPARATE THEM FROM THEIR CHILDREN, THAT'S GOING TO SEND A MESSAGE OF DETERRENCE.
IN A LOT OF WAYS, THAT EXACERBATED THIS PROBLEM.
AFTER THAT WAS MET WITH OUTRAGE AND THEN SORT OF CALLED OFF BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A LOT OF THESE SMUGGLING GROUPS IN MEXICO AND CENTRAL AMERICA, THEY WERE LIKE, DID YOU SEE WHAT JUST HAPPENED?
THEY'RE GOING TO SEPARATE YOU FROM YOUR CHILDREN.
WE BETTER GO NOW.
WHO KNOWS WHAT THIS GUY IS GOING TO DO NEXT.
THEY USED THAT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING PEOPLE ACROSS, TO MAKE THEM PAY MORE MONEY.
I THINK IT BEGS THE QUESTION, WHAT IS AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE?
WHEN IS IT A CONSEQUENCE THAT WE'RE OKAY WITH?
THE BOOK TAKES A TURN WHEN YOU TELL US A STORY OF SOMEONE THAT YOU WERE WORKING NEXT TO FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME, YOU FIND OUT HE IS UNDOCUMENTED.
HE TAKES A TRIP HOME AND HE IS STUCK.
YOU SAID THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES YOU REALIZED WHAT HAPPENS TO A PERSON AFTER YOU ARREST THEM.
THAT WASN'T REALLY A PART OF YOUR TRAINING OR PART OF WHAT YOU PREPARED FOR AS BORDER PATROL AGENTS.
THIS PERSON JOSE, WHO IS SOMEBODY I MET SEVERAL YEARS AFTER LEAVING THE BORDER PATROL AND SOMEBODY THAT I WORKED WITH AND BECAME FRIENDS WITH OVER THE COURSE OF SEVERAL YEARS, ALL OF A SUDDEN IN SEEING WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AFTER -- HE LEFT THE COUNTRY TO GO, AGAIN, BE WITH A DIEING PARENT.
HE WAS SOMEBODY WHO LIVED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR 30 YEARS, HAD THREE U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN.
WHEN HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO COME BACK INTO THE COUNTRY, HE WAS APPREHENDED AND PUT THROUGH DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS.
SUDDENLY, I WAS -- AS SOMEBODY WHO WAS SOMEWHAT FAMILIAR WITH THE SYSTEM, I WAS ATTEMPTING TO SORT OF MAKE SENSE OF IT FOR HIS FAMILY AND SAY, HE IS GOING TO BE HERE AT THIS COURTHOUSE.
HE IS BEING DETAINED HERE.
I WAS SORT OF TAKING HIS KIDS AND HIS WIFE TO SEE HIM IN THESE DIFFERENT CONTEXTS THESE DIFFERENT PLACES.
FOR ME, THAT WAS REALLY THE FIRST TIME I WAS LOOKING BEHIND THE CURTAIN AT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO EVERYBODY AFTER THEY ARE ENCOUNTERED IN THE DESERT AND SENT TO COURT OR TO THESE PRIVATELY RUN DETENTION CENTERS.
THIS IS JOSE SPEAKING OR YOUR WRITING THROUGH HIS VOICE.
I WOULD RATHER BE IN PRISON IN THE U.S. AND SEE MY BOYS ONE A WEEK THAN BE SEPARATED FROM MY FAMILY.
THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN KEEP ME FROM CROSSING.
MY BOYS ARE NOT DOGS TO BE ABANDONED IN THE STREET.
I WILL TALK THROUGH THE DESERT FOR FIVE DAYS, EIGHT, TEN DAYS, WHATEVER IT TAKES.
I WILL EAT GRASS, BUSH, DRINK CATTLE WATER, I WILL DRINK NOTHING AT ALL.
I WILL HIDE AND PAY THE MAFIA WHATEVER I HAVE TO.
THEY CAN TAKE MY MONEY.
THEY CAN ROB MY FAMILY.
THEY CAN LOCK ME AWAY.
I WILL KEEP COMING BACK.
I WILL KEEP CROSSING AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL I MAKE IT, UNTIL I AM TOGETHER WITH MY FAMILY.
SOME OF THE AUDIENCE WILL BE INSPIRED.
SOMEONE ELSE WI LL SAY, THIS IS THE EVIDENCE FOR WHY THE U.S.
NEEDS MORE BORDER SECURITY.
WHAT THE EVIDENCE SHOWS US WHAT HIS WORDS REVEAL IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT VERSION OF HELL WE IMPLEMENT THROUGH POLICY AT THE BORDER, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ENDURE IT TO GET TO THE OTHER SIDE.
ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR WIVES, CHILDREN, FATHERS, MOTHERS ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE.
OR WHEN THERE'S THE SECURITY OF SAFETY FROM THE CERTAIN THREAT OF DEATH IN THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU ARE FLEEING.
I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT HE ALSO SHOWS US THAT THE PEOPLE WITH THE BEST FAMILY VALUES -- SOMETHING HE TOLD ME IS THAT I RESPECT THE LAW.
I RESPECT THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES.
THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE WHAT MAKES IT A SAFE ENVIRONMENT THAT I WANT TO LIVE IN, THAT I WANT TO RAISE MY FAMILY IN.
I HAVE THE UP TMOST RESPECT FOR THOSE LAWS.
IF THOSE LAWS ARE KEEPING ME SEPARATE FROM MY CHILDREN, THEN I HAVE TO BREAK THE LAW.
I HAVE TO.
THERE'S GOING TO BE PEOPLE WITH MORE HARD LINE POSITIONS ON IMMIGRATION THAT ARE GOING TO SAY, THIS DISILLUSIONMENT, HE IS THE OUTLIER.
IF IT WAS SO BAD, WHY AREN'T WE HEARING THIS FROM OTHER BORDER AGENTS?
WHY ISN'T THE SYSTEM REBELLING AGAINST ITSELF?
I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S THE WAY INSTITUTIONS WORK.
INSTITUTIONS RARELY CHANGE FROM WITHIN.
I THINK THAT EVERYTHING IS BEING DONE FROM THE MOMENT THAT YOU SIGN UP AT YOUR BORDER PATROL RECRUITMENT FACILITY AND YOU SHOW UP AT THE BORDER PATROL ACADEMY, EVERYTHING IS BEING DONE TO NORMALIZE THE ACTIVITIES YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN.
TO SORT OF DESENSITIZE YOU TO THE HARD REALITY THAT YOU ARE SEEING AND PARTICIPATING IN.
IT'S MANAGED TO BE CONTAINED AND IT'S MANAGED TO BE POLITICIZED.
WHAT AN AVERAGE BORDER PATROL AGENT THINKS IS NOT EVEN A SUBJECT OF DEBATE.
HOW MANY BORDER PATROL AGENTS ARE EVEN ALLOWED TO GIVE INTERVIEWS?
A LOT OF BORDER PATROL AGENTS PROBABLY LIVE IN FEAR OF SPEAKING OUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MORTGAGE, THEY HAVE FAMILIES.
THIS IS A GOOD JOB THAT OFFERS A LOT OF SECURITY, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE COMING FROM THESE SMALL, RURAL BORDER TOWNS WHERE THERE'S NOT A LOT OF GREAT EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY.
YOU HAVE GOTTEN CRITICISM FROM PEOPLE WHO SAID, YOU ARE PROFITING AND EXPLOITING THE PAIN OF THESE PEOPLE.
YOU ARE PART OF A SYSTEM THAT BROUGHT THAT PAIN ON THEM.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?
WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IN A LOT OF WAYS THEY'RE MAKING A REALLY IMPORTANT ARGUMENT.
ANYBODY WHO IS IN JOURNALISM OR WHO IS WRITING NON-FICTION ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ISSUES NEEDS TO GRAPPLE WITH.
IF YOU ARE SHARING THE STORIES FROM A MARGINALIZED COMMUNITY, AND SORT OF MAKING A LIVING THAT WAY, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO GRAPPLE WITH WHO IS MAKING MONEY OFF OF WHOSE STORY.
WHO IS BEING RECOGNIZED AS THE AUTHOR OF A STORY IF YOU ARE SHARING OTHER PEOPLE'S LIFE EXPERIENCES?
SO I HAVE BEEN REALLY APPRECIATIVE OF THOSE CRITICISMS AND THOSE CONVERSATIONS.
I THINK THEY HAVE MADE ME BE A LOT MORE INTENTIONAL WITH WHAT I DO FROM -- WHAT I DO WITH THE MONEY THAT I EARN FROM THE ROYALTIES OF THIS BOOK.
A PERCENTAGE OF THE ROYALTIES GOES TO GROUPS THAT ARE WORKING TO END DEATH AND DISAPPEARANCE IN THE BORDER LANDS AND MASS INCARCERATION.
GIVEN YOUR FAMILY HISTORY, HOW COMPLICATED WAS BEING A BORDER PATROL AGENT?
HERE YOU ARE A FLUENT SPANISH SPEAKER.
YOU HAVE MEXICAN HERITAGE.
DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE BETRAYING ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND THEN HERE YOU ARE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND YOU ARE TASKED WITH UPHOLDING THE LAW OF THIS COUNTRY?
WHAT WAS THAT STRESS LIKE?
I THINK IT WAS REALLY HARD FOR MY MOTHER ESPECIALLY.
I THINK SHE SORT OF DID A LOT TO TRY TO CONVINCE ME THAT IT WASN'T THE RIGHT IDEA OR TO SORT OF CONVINCE ME THAT MY IDEAS, MY MOTIVATIONS WERE NAIVE.
I THINK IN RETROSPECT, THERE WAS A LOT THAT MY MOTHER HAD TO SAY --
MOMS ARE USUALLY RIGHT.
THEY ARE USUALLY RIGHT.
I STEPPED INTO THE BORDER PATROL KNOWING THAT IT WAS -- KNOWING IT WAS PART OF A LOT OF UGLINESS.
KNOWING I -- I HAD THE IDEA THAT I COULD WITNESS THAT WITHOUT PARTICIPATING IN IT.
RIGHT?
THAT I COULD SORT OF SEE IT AND LEARN FROM IT BUT NOT BE IM IMPLICATED IN IT.
I THINK THAT'S A PROFOUNDLY NAIVE IDEA TO THINK THAT YOU CAN STEP INTO AN INSTITUTION AND SORT OF SEE THINGS FROM WITHIN WITHOUT PARTICIPATING IN THEM.
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.
AN IMPORTANT REMINDER AS THE DEBATE CONTINUES OF THE HUMAN COST OF THIS.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
THANKS FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.