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> HELLO AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
AS FOREIGN MINISTER BORIS JOHN'S LOOSE LIPS SUNK THE HOPES OF A BRITISH CITIZEN IMPRISONED IN IRAN.
AS PRIME MINISTER, CAN HE HANDLE THE CRISIS WITH IRAN IN THE PERSIAN GULF?
I TALK TO JACK STRAW, THE FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
BASED ON A TRUE STORY, A FILM PORTRAYS HOW A NEO-NAZI TURNED HIS BACK ON THE WHITE SUPREMACIST MOVEMENT WITH THE HELP OF A BLACK SOCIAL ACTIVIST.
> AND THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' EDITOR AND CHIEF MATT MURRAY IN CONVERSATION WITH OUR WALTER ISACKSON.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
A MOMENTOUS WEEK IN BRITISH PILL PARTICULARS.
A PRIME MINISTER MOVES IN.
BORIS JOHNSON'S CABINET MINISTERS HAVE BEEN APPOINTED TAKING A RADICAL RIGHT TURN AT THE TOP OF GOVERNMENT WITH HARD-LINE BREXITEERS PUT IN ALL THE SENIOR POSITIONS.
IN HIS FIRST ADDRESS TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS HE SPOKE WITH HIS USUAL BOTTOM BAST, PROMISING HIS PREMIERSHIP WAS A FRESH START.
MR. SPEAKER, TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF A NEW APPROACH WHICH WILL END WITH OUR EXIT FROM THE E.U. ON THE 31st OF OCTOBER.
I HOPE WE CAN HAVE A FRIENDLY CONSTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP AS CONSTITUTIONAL EQUALS, AS FRIENDS AND PARTNERS IN FACING THE CHALLENGES THAT LIE AHEAD.
LEAVING THE E.U. WILL BE THE TOUGHEST AND MOST DRAMATIC PEACETIME BRITISH OPERATION.
BUT JOHNSON ALSO HAS SERIOUS ISSUES TO DEAL WITH EVEN FURTHER AFIELD, SUCH AS THE CRISIS WITH IRAN AND THE TIT FOR TAT SEIZURE OF OIL TANKERS.
JACK STRAW IS A FORMER BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY AND IN 2001 AFTER 9/11 HE BECAME THE FIRST TOP MINISTER TO VISIT IRAN SINCE THE 1979 REVOLUTION.
HIS INTENSE STUDY OF THIS VITAL YET VEXING NATION IS THE SUBJECT OF HIS LATEST BOOK THE ENGLISH JOB, UNDERSTANDING IRAN AND WHY IT DISTRUSTS BRITAIN.
LOOKS AT THE TWO COUNTRIES' COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP OVER MANY DECADES.
I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING TO HIM ABOUT THIS INDISPENSABLE GUIDE AND THE ROLE BRITAIN HAS PLAYED IN SHAPING IRAN'S DOMESTIC AND FOREIGN POLICY.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
YOU HAVE REALLY BUILT QUITE A NAME FOR YOURSELF IN THAT YOU ARE ONE OF THE RARE IRAN EXPERTS IN THE SORT OF FIELD OF PUBLIC SERVANTS WHO HAVE TO ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE COUNTRY.
YOU HAVE WRITTEN THIS BOOK.
FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CURRENT CRISIS, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY TIT FOR TAT SEIZING OF TANKERS, IRAN SEIZING THE BRITISH-FLAGGED TANKER?
WELL, I MEAN, WHAT I MAKE OF THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CLASSIC IRANIAN APPROACH.
THEY ARE UP AGAINST THE WALL, NOT LEAST BECAUSE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SANCTIONS.
THEY ARE PRETTY DESPERATE.
THEY KNOW THE RISKS OF GETTING INTO A FULL-SCALE WAR, WHICH THEY WOULD LOSE STRAIGHTAWAY.
SO THEY ARE DOING THEIR BEST TO CALIBRATE THINGS.
I THINK IT FOLLOWED AS NIGHT FOLLOWED THE DAY THAT ONCE THE TANKER IN GIBRALTAR WAS ARRESTED.
THERE WAS BOUND TO BE RETALIATION.
THAT WAS AN IRANIAN TANKER TAKING OIL, BUSTING THE SANCTIONS TO SYRIA?
YEAH.
THIS GOES BACK, OF COURSE, TO DONALD TRUMP'S DECISION TO WITHDRAW FROM THE J.C. PA.
I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THAT WAS THE WRONG DECISION.
I AM ON THE SAME PAGE AS PRESIDENT TRUMP IN NOT WANTING IRAN TO BUILD A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
I THINK WE ALL ARE.
AND THERE ARE BIG RISKS ABOUT WHAT IRAN'S REAL INTENTIONS ARE.
I HAPPEN TO THINK IT WAS CRAZY FOR HIM TO PULL OUT OF THIS DEAL THAT GUARANTEED THAT IRAN EFFECTIVELY COULD NOT BUILD A NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAPABILITY FOR 2015 YEARS AND REPLACE IT BY NOTHING DIRECTLY.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT --
IT MADE IT MORE DANGEROUS.
PULLING OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL HAS ACTUALLY POTENTIALLY MADE IT MORE LIKELY THAT IRAN COULD, IF IT WANTED TO --
I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY DOUBT ABOUT THAT, FIRST OFF.
IT'S MADE IT MORE DANGEROUS FOR THE REGION?
YES.
ONE OF THE REASONS IS BECAUSE IT HAS SHIFTED THE BALANCE OF POLITICS IN IRAN.
I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE, AS WELL AS IN THE U.S., PEOPLE LIKE JOHN BOLTON, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE U.S. WHO TAKE THE VIEW THAT THIS IS AN ENTIRELY HOMOGENOUS GOVERNMENT.
THERE ARE NO ARGUMENTS INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S ALL ONE LOT CONTROLLED BY --
WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT THE U.S. IS ALIENATING THE PRAGMATIC --
YES.
-- CORE OF -- AND NOT RECOGNIZING THAT THERE IS A PRAGMATIC WING, AND EMPOWERING THE MOST HARD LINE, WHICH IS THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD.
THE HARD-LINERS IN THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD ARE ALWAYS OPPOSED TO THE NUCLEAR DEAL.
THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANT?
YOU HAVE A PACT BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE HARD-LINERS.
AND A MISCALCULATION BY JOHN BOLTON AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS IF THEY IMPOSE THESE SANCTIONS, WHICH HAVE UNQUESTIONABLY CAUSED HUGE DAMAGE TO THE IRANIAN ECONOMY, TO LIVING STANDARDS FOR MOST IRANIANS, THIS WOULD CAUSE AN UPRISING AND UNREST.
IT'S NOT LIKE THAT.
JUST LIKE WHEN THE IRAN/IRAQ WAR TOOK PLACE, THE HARD-LINERS TOOK CONTROL.
YET AGAIN THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE CONTROL AND APPEAL, AMONGST OTHER THINGS, TO NATIONAL PRIDE AND UNITY.
LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE HERE YOU ARE A FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY, YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH IRAN CERTAINLY IN THE POST-9/11 PERIOD AND ALL OF THAT.
AND NOW A BRITISH FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY IS PRIME MINISTER, BORIS JOHNSON, AND YOU HAVE GOT JAVAD ZARIF, THE IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER TWEETING THAT I CONGRATULATE MY FORMER COUNTERPART ON BECOMING U.K.
PRIME MINISTER.
IRAN DOES NOT SEEK CONFRONTATION BUT WE HAVE 1,500 MILES OF PERSIAN GULF COASTLINE.
THESE ARE OUR WATERS AND WE WILL PROTECT THEM.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO LEAD TO?
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
DOES BORIS JOHNSON KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS?
FAIRNESS TO THE GUY, EVEN IF I WAS IN THE TORY PARTY, I WASN'T HAVE VOTED HIM.
HE TOOK ADVICE.
I USED TO TALK TO HIM FROM TIME TO TIME ABOUT THIS.
HE STUCK WITH THE DEAL AND WAS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
I HOPE VERY MUCH THAT HE DOES NOT RESPOND TO BLANDISHMENTS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT WE'LL GIVE YOU A TRADE DEAL BUT YOU SPLIT AWAY FROM THE EUROPEANS.
BUT SO FAR, SO GOOD.
SO FAR AS THE TANKERS ARE CONCERNED, THIS IS STRAIGHTFORWARD.
THE IRANIANS, EVEN IN GOOD TIMES, ARE TRANSACTIONAL.
YOU TAKE MY TANKER, WE'LL TAKE YOURS.
THERE WILL HAVE TO BE A DEAL AT SOME STAGE OVER A PERIOD OF WEEKS WHERE IT'S AGREED WITH HONOR THAT BOTH ARE RELEASED.
YOU BROUGHT UP THE FACT THAT THE CURRENT NEW PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON IS KIND OF REALLY HITCHING HIS STAR TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
HE DESPERATELY WANTS A BREAKOUT IN THE BOX TRADE DEAL AND QUICKLY TO SORT OF SET THE POST-BREXIT STAGE.
HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE AMERICANS ARE RESPONDING NECESSARILY IN KIND OVER TRADE OR OVER DEFENDING THE SEIZURE OF THEIR ALLY'S TANKER IN THE GULF.
THIS IS WHAT SECRETARY OF STATE POMPEO SAID.
THE RESPONSIBILITY IN THE FIRST INSTANCE FALLS TO THE UNITED KINGDOM TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR SHIPS.
BUT YOU KNOW THIS STORY.
THIS ISN'T BECAUSE OF AMERICAN SANCTIONS.
THIS IS BECAUSE THE THEOCRACY, THE LEADERSHIP IN IRAN, THEIR REVOLUTIONARY ZEAL TO CONDUCT TERROR AROUND THE WORLD FOR DECADES CONTINUES.
IS THAT A VOTE OF BACKING FROM THE STRONGEST ALLY?
WHAT IS BRITAIN TO MAKE OF THAT?
NO, IT'S NOT, IS THE ANSWER.
SO FAR AS TRADE IS CONCERNED, PRESIDENT TRUMP CAN PROMISE ANYTHING HE WANTS IN A TRADE DEAL, BUT IT'S NOT FOR HIM TO DELIVER.
THAT IS VERY MUCH IN THE HANDS OF CONGRESS.
AND CONGRESS WILL BE DEFENDING -- MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, THEIR OWN CONSTITUENTS, THEIR DISTRICTS, THEIR STATES' INTERESTS.
WE WANT A DEAL ON FARM PRODUCTS THE, FINE.
SENATORS FROM IOWA, CONGRESSMAN FROM OTHER FARMING STATES, WE'LL TRY AND DRIVE A VERY HARD BARGAIN.
THAT'S HOW IT IS.
NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DEFENDS ITS OWN INTERESTS, ITS OWN NATIONAL INTERESTS MORE THAN AMERICA.
WE HAVE TO BE COMPLETELY STRAIGHTFORWARD ABOUT THIS.
BACK TO IRAN, BORIS JOHNSON, AND THE HISTORIC TRAILS THAT YOU TRACK IN THE ENGLISH JOB.
YOU SAID BORIS JOHNSON DID A FAIRLY GOOD JOB AND TOOK ADVICE AS FOREIGN SECRETARY.
LIKE ALL OF EUROPE AND THE WORLD HE AGREED WITH THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, IT WAS NOT PERFECT, BUT IT WAS GOOD.
HOWEVER, HE IS ACCUSED OF HAVING COMPLETELY BUNGLED THE ISSUE OF A BRITISH CITIZEN CAPTURED, CONVICTED, JAILED IN IRAN, NAZANIN ZAGHARI-RATCLIFFE, AND HE JUST PLAYED RIGHT INTO THE HARD-LINERS HANDS CALLING HER A JOURNALIST.
SHE SAYS SHE WAS THERE TO VISIT HER FAMILY.
DOES THIS FILL YOU WITH CONFIDENCE?
THERE ARE TWO BORIS JOHNSONS.
THE BORIS JOHNSON WHO IS HANDLING THE NUCLEAR DEAL, DOSSIER, DID OKAY.
NAZANIN ZAGHARI-RATCLIFFE, HE WENT TO THAT HEARING, THAT COMMITTEE.
HADN'T READ HIS BRIEF.
HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT.
WAS BASKING.
AND THE RESULT OF THAT, AND IT HAPPENS TO BE A FACT THAT HE MADE IT MUCH, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR THE DECENT PEOPLE IN THE SYSTEM TO ARGUE IN FAVOR OF HER RELEASE BECAUSE HE SAID OUT OF HIS OWN MOUTH SHE WAS THERE AS A JOURNALIST.
NOI YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ANYBODY THAT AS FAR AS THE HARD-LINERS ARE CONCERNED, SHE IS A SPY.
THAT'S WHAT THEY THINK.
WHO CAN SAY EXACTLY HOW MUCH MORE DIFFICULT IT'S MADE IT FOR POOR NANZANIN.
IN MY VIEW, IT HAS DELAYED HER RELEASE.
THE OTHER THING HE HAS TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT, IF HE WANTS MRS.
NAZANIN ZAGHARI-RATCLIFFE TO BE RELEASED, HE DOESN'T WANT TO JUMP INTO BED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.
SO TO SPEAK.
SOME WOULD SAY HE DID JUMP INTO BED AND EXCEEDED TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DEMANDS WHEN HE THREW A DISTINGUISHED DIPLOMAT AND AMBASSADOR TO THE USA, KIM DERRICK, UNDER THE BUS AFTER WHAT WE UNDERSTAND WERE VERY SORT OF CONVENTIONAL WISDOM ASSESSMENTS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, PARTICULARLY HIS POLICY TOWARDS IRAN.
YEAH, I AGREE WITH THAT.
IT WAS PRETTY SHAMEFUL.
ANYBODY WHO HAS BEEN IN WASHINGTON FOR MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES WILL KNOW THAT SENIOR REPUBLICANS SAY EXACTLY THE SAME THING AND WORSE ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP.
NOW, LET'S GET TO YOUR BOOK HERE, THE ENGLISH JOB, BECAUSE YOU TALKED A MOMENT AGO ABOUT THE RELATIVELY GOOD GUYS IN THE IRANIAN SYSTEM.
OF COURSE, MANY IN THE UNITED STATES DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SUCH A DIVISION.
I MEAN, I KNOW FROM YOUR WRITING THAT A LOT OF IT COMES FROM THE POST-9/11 MOMENT, YOUR ENCOUNTER, YOUR VISIT THERE WITH THEN-REFORMED PRESIDENT.
THE SUPPORT THAT THAT GOVERNMENT GAVE TO THE UNITED STATES AND TO THE WEST AND THE SYMPATHY AFTER 9/11.
DESCRIBE WHAT THE SITUATION -- IT WAS A BIT OF A TURNING POINT THEN.
WELL, IT WAS.
HE SAW HIS OPPORTUNITY IN THE BEST SENSE OF THAT WORD.
AS YOU WILL RECALL, THERE WERE SPONTANEOUS DEMONSTRATIONS IN TEHRAN IN SYMPATHY FOR THE VICTIMS OF 9/11 WITH TORCHLIGHT PROCESSIONS.
AND THERE WAS A GREATER OPPORTUNITY THERE, WHICH PRESIDENT HARTAMI SAW FOR IRAN TO HELP THE U.S. AND THEN TO RESET ITS RELATIONSHIPS OVER TIME WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST.
THAT WAS WHY I WENT OUT THERE WITHIN TWO WEEKS TO TALK TO THE PRESIDENT ABOUT THAT ON OUR BEHALF, BUT INDIRECTLY ON BEHALF OF THE U.S. AS WELL.
THERE ARE LOTS OF BACKSTAIRS NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN THE U.S.
AND IRAN.
GREAT DEAL OF COOPERATION.
THE IRANIANS GAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF INTELLIGENCE COOPERATION TO THE INTERNATIONAL ALLIANCE THAT THEY WOULD ACTUALLY REMOVE THE TALIBAN --
FROM AFGHANISTAN?
FROM AFGHANISTAN, WITHOUT WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.
THINGS WERE FAIR UNTIL YOU HAVE THIS DISASTROUS FEW LINES IN PRESIDENT BUSH'S STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH AT THE END OF JANUARY 2002 WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT AN AXIS OF EVIL INVOLVING NORTH KOREA, IRAQ, AND IRAN.
AND I HAVE TALKED TO DAVID SHRUM, THE SPEECH WRITER, ABOUT THIS.
AND HE JUST SAID, WELL, IT WAS ILLITTIVE.
IT WAS A FEW LINES.
I DIDN'T EXPECT IT TO SURVIVE.
OTHER PEOPLE, CONDOLEEZZA RICE SAYS IN HER MEMOIRS -- SHE AND PRESIDENT BUSH WERE TAKEN BY SURPRISE BY THE REACTION TO THIS.
COLIN POWELL SAID WHEN IT CAME AROUND TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT, NOBODY SPOTTED IT.
YOU KNOW, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.
BUT IN THE END, AFTER SOME WEEKS OF ARGUMENT, IT WAS THE HARD-LINERS WHO WON, SAID YOU CAN NEVER TRUST THE AMERICANS, YOU KNOW, THE GREAT SATAN.
ALTHOUGH IRAN CONTINUED TO GIVE SOME ASSISTANCE TO US IN AFGHANISTAN, BECAUSE IT WAS IN THEIR INTEREST, THERE WAS A GREATER OPPORTUNITY LOST THERE.
NOW, WE TRIED TO GET IT BACK WITH THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS THAT I WAS INVOLVED IN, IT STARTED --
YOU STARTED IT?
YES, MY FRENCH AND GERMAN COUNTERPARTS.
GIVEN THIS, I MEAN, REALLY ROCKY ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN IRAN AND THE WEST, AND IT'S GONE BACK A LONG TIME.
I MEAN, 1953 THEY BLAMED THE U.K. FOR OVERTHROWING THEIR DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRIME MINISTER AND THEY SEE THE U.S.
AND THE U.K. JUST AS PERPETUAL SUPERPOWER INTERFERERS.
YES.
AND I WANT TO FINISH OUR INTERVIEW ON THIS PERSONAL STORY.
YOU WENT BACK WITH YOUR WIFE AND FRIENDS.
YOU WERE HAVING A PERSONAL HOLIDAY.
YEAH.
TOURISM TO TEHRAN, TO IRAN, IN 2015.
WHAT HAPPENED?
WELL, IN TEHRAN IT WAS FINE EXCEPT THAT I KEPT BEING SPOTTED TO NT STREET.
IT WAS LIKE BEING IN MY DISTRICT, MY CONSTITUENCY, WHICH WAS TOTALLY UNEXPECTED.
PEOPLE COMING OUT SAYING JACKIE STRAW AND ASKING FOR SELFIES.
THIS IS DAY SIX.
WE STOPPED OFF AT A FAMOUS REVERED SITE, 4,000 YEARS OLD.
AND THERE WERE SIX GUYS WAITING FOR ME DRESSED IN BLACK.
AND THEY HAD PREPARED A TWO-PAGE VERY DETAILED DOCUMENT ABOUT ALL THE CRIMES THAT BRITAIN HAD COMMITTED SINCE THE MIDDLE OF THE 19th CENTURY, IF YOU PLEASE, AND SAID BRITS WEREN'T WELCOME AND I PARTICULARLY AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CUNNING FOX WAS NOT WELCOME THERE.
WHAT WAS I DOING THERE?
IT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE HOLIDAY.
THAT THEN LED TO BEING FACED WITH A HARD STOP ON A MOTOR WAY, ON A HIGHWAY, WHERE FOUR BIG GUYS GET OUT OF A CAR.
WE DIDN'T KNOW WHO THE DEVIL THEY WERE.
OUR DRIVER WAS REMOVED.
THESE GUYS WERE CARRYING PISTOLS, WE GET OFF AT HIGH SPEED.
WE ARE TOLD TO TRANSFER AND TAKEN TO A DIFFERENT HOTEL.
IT TURNED OUT TO BE THE POLICE ON OUR SIDE, ON OUR SIDE TO PROTECT US FROM THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THE DECLARATION TOGETHER WHO WERE THE BA SIEGE, ATTACHED TO THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD.
THIS IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE YOU GET POLICE PROTECTION NOT AGAINST CRIMINALS OR TERRORISTS, WHICH IS NORMAL, BUT AGAINST OTHER PARTS OF THE SAME STATE.
IT HAPPENED AGAIN.
WE FINALLY SAID WE HAVE TO CUT THIS SHORT DESPITE POLICE PROTECTION.
IT WAS UNSURPRISINGLY THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD.
BUT THAT ALSO IS A PARABLE ABOUT THE SPLIT NATURE OF THIS GOVERNMENT.
OF THE SYSTEM?
OF THE SYSTEM.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.
THE ENGLISH JOB.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
> IMPORTANT REFLECTIONS THERE ON A VITAL REGION THAT REMAINS VOLATILE TODAY.
> WE TURN NOW TO A COMPLICATED TALE OF REDEMPTION COMING FROM A BROKEN HOME.
BRIAN WIDENER FOUND COMMUNITY IN THE NEO-NAZI VINLANDER SOCIAL GROUP.
HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT MEMBERS IMMERSED IN A LIFETIME OF HATE AND CRIME.
UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S A STORY ALL TOO COMMON.
MANY YOUNG MEN ARE DRAWN INTO THE CLUTCHES OF EXTREMISM OFTEN BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A SENSE OF FAMILY AND BELONGING.
BUT WIDENER MADE THE BOLD DECISION EVENTUALLY TO TURN HIS LIFE AROUND.
IT WASN'T AN EASY FEAT CONSIDERING HE IS COVERED, OR HE WAS, FROM HEAD TO TOE IN RACIST TATTOOS.
ENTER DARRELL LAMONT JENKINS, A SOCIAL ACTIVIST KNOWN FOR HELPING NEO-NAZIS LEAVE THEIR CIRCLE.
IT'S NOW BEEN TURNED INTO A FILM, SKIN, WITH AN UNRECOGNIZABLE JAMIE BAIL IN THE LEAD.
IT'S A FAR CRY FROM HIS BREAKOUT ROLE BILLY ELLIOTT.
HERE IS A CLIP.
IN THIS BUSINESS, YOU'VE GOT TO STAY FOCUSED OR FALL BACK DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE.
WHAT IF I TAKE ALL THIS STUFF OFF?
I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING TO ACTOR JAMIE BELL AND THE ACTUAL DARRELL LAMONT JENKINS WHO JOINED ME BOTH FROM NEW YORK.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.
THIS IS TRULY A FILM THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A STRONG CONSTITUTION TO WATCH.
I MEAN, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.
VERY, VERY RAW, AND QUITE VIOLENT, BOTH EMOTIONALLY AND ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY.
JAMIE, YOU COME FROM BILLY ELLIOTT AND ROCKET MAN AND ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF PRODUCTIONS IN THE PAST.
HOW TOUGH FOR YOU TO TAKE ON THIS ROLE?
CERTAINLY MY MOST CHALLENGING ROLE THAT I HAVE EVER DONE.
I THINK WHEN YOU ARE PORTRAYING SOMEONE WHO IS SO VASTLY DIFFERENT FROM WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON, SO INTENSELY WILDLY OFF COLOR AS THIS CHARACTER IS MORALLY TO BEGIN WITH, IT IS CHALLENGING.
THERE IS ALSO KIND OF THE PHYSICAL TRANSFORMATION OF THE ROLE, SITTING THE CHAIR FOR MANY HOURS A DAY TO HAVE ALL THE TAT U TUESDAY /#* TATTOOS ON.
ALL THAT STUFF IS MORE EASY TO DEAL WITH.
THE HARDEST THING FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND WAS THE INTENSE LEVEL OF DETACHMENT THAT THIS CHARACTER HAD.
DETACHMENT FROM COMPASSION.
DETACHMENT FROM EMPATHY.
DETACHMENT FROM LOVE.
WALKING AROUND WITH THAT EVERY DAY FOR SIX WEEKS WAS JUST VERY UNPLEASANT.
OKAY.
SO LET'S BRING ON THE FIRST CLIP.
JAMIE, YOU PLAYING BRIAN AND YOUR WIFE WITH HER THREE GIRLS.
THANK YOU, BY THE WAY.
YOU COMING BACK TO THE NEXT ONE MUCH THESE?
IT'S GOING TO BE MASSIVE.
NO, WE'RE DONE WITH THIS [ BLEEP ]. IT'S OUR LAST GIG.
WHY?
WHY?
YEAH.
I DON'T WANT MY KIDS TO BE AROUND THIS.
WE ARE JUST HERE FOR A PAYCHECK.
OKAY.
SO, JAMIE, DESCRIBE NOW BRIAN, THIS WHITE SUPREMACIST, FULL OF TATTOOS, AND HIS WIFE.
IS THIS THE TURNING POINT WHEN YOU MEET JULIE AND SHE DECIDES SHE CAN'T GO TO ANOTHER ONE OF THESE GATHERINGS WITH YOU?
WELL, BRIAN WIDENER AT THIS POINT WHERE WE MEET HIM IS A CAREER NAZI.
THAT'S ALL HE HAS KIND OF REALLY DONE.
HE HAS KIND OF INDOCTRINATED INTO THIS IDEOLOGY AND THAT WAS HIS LIFE, A LIFE OF INTENSE DRINKING, HEAVY DRINKING, VIOLENCE, BIGOTRY, HATRED, AND THEN HE DOES COME ACROSS THIS DANI McDONALD WHO PLAYS JULIE.
SHE HAS THREE GIRLS, AS YOU SAW.
THERE IS THE SPARK THAT BEGINS HIS JOURNEY OUT AS WELL AS HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU, DARRELL.
I THINK HE SEES STABILITY.
I THINK HE SEES IN THE CHILDREN THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE LIGHTER, BE SOMEONE WHO MAYBE CAN HAVE COMPASSION AND THAT HE CHALLENGES HIMSELF TO LOOK INSIDE.
BUT THE ROLE FOR ME AS A MAN WHO IS COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS COMING TO BEING AWARE, KIND OF REAWAKENING, AND DARRELL IS CERTAINLY A HUGE PART OF THAT, BUT ALSO HIM BECOMING A PARENT TO THESE CHILDREN IS ALSO, YOU KNOW, AN INTENSELY MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR HIM.
CHALLENGING HIM TO SEE DOES HE HAVE THESE THINGS INSIDE OF HIM AND COULD HE EVER BE ANY DIFFERENT.
OKAY.
IT'S A VERY RELEVANT CONVERSATION.
NOW I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP WITH DARRELL'S CHARACTER, AND THIS IS WHERE YOU ARE EXPLAINING TO BRIAN, JAMIE BELL, THE COST AND THE MODALITIES OF GETTING OUT OF THIS LIFE.
I WANT TO HELP.
THE FEDS NEED YOU PFOR MORE COOPERATION ON THIS THING, BRIAN, OKAY?
THERE AIN'T NO DEAL WITHOUT IT.
I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHERE WE'RE GONNA GO, WHERE WE'RE GONNA LIVE?
WHAT WILL THE GIRLS?
ALL OF THAT IS CLASSIFIED, OKAY?
I WON'T KNOW UNLESS YOU WANT ME TO.
WHAT ABOUT SCHOOL FOR THE GIRLS?
THEY WILL BE TAKEN CARE OF.
I PROMISE YOU THAT.
IT'S BEEN A HARD TIME.
YEAH, ESPECIALLY NOW, THE LITTLE ONE.
YEAH.
SO, DARRELL, THAT'S THE ACTOR MIKE COLDER PLAYING YOU.
WHAT MOTIVATES YOU, DARRELL, IN REAL LIFE TO JUMP IN HERE AND TO TRY TO SAVE A CHARACTER LIKE THAT?
TAKE HIM OUT OF THIS TOXIC BREW?
WELL, THE FACT REMAINS THAT THERE ARE STILL HUMAN BEINGS.
THEY DON'T START OFF BEING BIG IT'S.
THEY DON'T START OFF BEING HATEFUL.
I WOULD ALSO EXTEND THAT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN GANGS, PEOPLE IN CULTS AND SUCH.
THE THING IS, HOWEVER, WHERE DO WE COME IN?
HOW DO WE HELP THEM?
IN TRUTH, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THEM.
I REMEMBER JAMIE TALKING ABOUT, IN ANOTHER INTERVIEW, HOW THIS IS NOT A REDEMPTIVE STORY, AND IT'S NOT.
THERE IS -- IT'S ALL ON BRIAN IN THIS MOVIE.
IT'S ALL ON WHAT HE WANTS TO DO AND WHERE HE WANTS TO GO WITH HIS LIFE.
ALL I CAN BE IS A GUIDING LIGHT.
I MEAN, IN THE BEGINNING OF THE MOVIE, WE ARE NOT THE BEST OF FRIENDS.
WE ARE AT ODDS TO UNDERSCORE A FACT, AND THAT'S THE KIND OF THING I HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN MY DAY TO DAY WITH I'M DEALING WITH THESE FOLKS.
EITHER I AM FIGHTING THEM OR I AM HELPING THEM.
IT DEPENDS ON THAT PERSON.
REALLY INTERESTINGLY, YOU ARE IN A WAY FIGHTING THEM AS WELL BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN ACTIVIST INTENTION.
YOU HAVE A PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION THAT ACTUALLY TAKES VIDEOS AND POSTS THEM AND KIND OF NAMES AND SHAMS AND PUTS THEM OUT THERE WHEN YOU CAN GET TO THEIR MEETINGS.
SO I GUESS HOW DID DARRELL, YOU, HOW DID YOU ENTER BRIAN'S LIFE?
WHAT WAS THE CATALYST FOR GETTING, YOU KNOW, GETTING JAMIE, BRIAN, OUT OF THIS.
CURIOUSLY ENOUGH, IT WAS JULIE IN REAL LIFE.
IT WAS JULIE THAT CONTACTED US AND SAID WE ARE TRYING TO GET OUT, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT.
SHE PUT ME ON THE PHONE WITH BRIAN AFTER A FEW CONVERSATIONS WITH HER, AND THAT WAS -- THAT STARTED THE CONVERSATION.
I HAVEN'T HAD ANY PROBLEMS TALKING TO BRIAN SINCE THAT DAY.
AS HE WILL PROBABLY TELL YOU, BEFOREHAND THIS WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED.
HE WAS STILL DEEP IN THE VILANDER SOCIAL CLUB, AS THEY WERE CALLED.
I'M STRAIGHT UP ANTIFA.
THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN FISTICUFFS IF WE SAW EACH OTHER IN THE STREET.
I WOULD HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE DAMAGE HE WOULD HAVE DONE OTHERS.
SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WHERE WE WERE AT WERE IT NOT FOR OUR CONVERSATION, WERE IT NOT FOR HIM AND JULIE SAYING WE WANT OUT.
WE WANT TO ADVANCE OURSELVES IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.
YOU BROUGHT THE OPPOSITE OF DETACHMENT INTO BRIAN'S LIFE, RIGHT?
JUST BRIEFLY TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU REINTRODUCED HIM INTO HIS HUMANITY.
WELL, BASICALLY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WIMPORTANT ABOUT MY INITIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH BRIAN WAS THE FACT THAT WE DIDN'T TALK POLITICS.
WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT OUR DISAGREEMENTS IN THAT PARTICULAR SPHERE.
WE TALKED MUSIC AND WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT REALLY BONDED US, THAT CONNECTED US.
AND IT WASN'T EVEN A CONSCIOUS EFFORT ON MY PART.
IT WASN'T A TACTIC OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
IT'S WHO I AM.
AND APPARENTLY IT WAS WHO HE IS.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO RELATE TO HIM ON SOME SORT OF LEVEL, I THINK IT WENT A LONG WAY INTO HIM BEING ABLE TO GROW HIMSELF OUT OF THIS WORLD THAT HE WAS LIVING IN FOR 13 YEARS.
BRIAN IS COMPLETELY MARKED BY HIS TATTOOS.
IN RETURN FOR INFORMATION, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU FOUND A DONOR TO REMOVE AT LEAST SOME OF THE TATTOOS.
WE SEE THIS DEPICTED IN A 2011 DOCUMENTARY CALLED 'ERASING HATE' AND I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF THE REAL BRIAN AND THE REAL PAIN HE WENT THROUGH.
PRESIDENT OF THE CLUB CALLED ME UP AND SAID I HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN MY FAMILY OR THEN.
YOU GET A SCAR ON YOUR FACE AND HEAD.
I WAS A LITTLE INTIMIDATED BY BOTH OF THEM.
COMING OFF IS FREQUENTLY MORE PAINFUL THAN GOING ON.
IT'S ALL PART OF THE PROCESS.
EVERYTHING HAS A PRICE.
BUT JUST TO REMIND US, HE WOULD TATTOO HIMSELF EVERY TIME HE COMMITTED, I MEAN, ESSENTIALLY A HATE CRIME.
MM-HMM.
AND CONSIDERING HOW MANY TATTOOS THAT HE HAD ON HIS BODY, AND STILL HAS ON HIS BODY, THAT WILL GIVE YOU AN IDEA HOW BAD HE WAS.
HE WAS ONE OF THE TOP ENFORCERS OF THE VILANDER SOCIAL CLUB.
ONE OF THE NASTIEST INDIVIDUALS OUT THERE.
I HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL SCARED OF HIM TODAY.
FOR HIM TO MAKE THIS TRANSFORMATION OVER THE PAST TEN, 11 YEARS IS REMARKABLE TO ME.
I THINK IT'S A TESTAMENT TO HIM.
AND I HEARD THAT IT WAS REALLY MEDICALLY DIFFICULT, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, TO REMOVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM FROM ALL OVER HIS BODY.
YOU SEE HIS ARMS AND TORSO AND EVERYTHING IS PAINTED.
I THINK IT TOOK TWO YEARS.
IT TOOK TWO OR THREE YEARS, YES.
NOW, HE STILL HAS SOME TATTOOS, BUT THEY ARE NOT ANY OF THE MORE RACIALLY SENSITIVE TATTOOS, OF COURSE.
SO HE STILL HAS SOME ON HIS BODY.
IT WAS JUST TAKING TOO MUCH FOR THAT.
BUT I WAS THERE FOR ONE OF THE SESSIONS, AND I COULD JUST TELL YOU IT WAS INTENSE.
IT WAS DEFINITELY INTENSE.
LISTEN, WHEN YOU CHOOSE TO DO THAT TO YOUR BODY, COVER IT WITH HATE, IN AN ATTEMPT TO INTIMIDATE AND ZAR TEAM, TO ISOLATE YOURSELF FROM THE WORLD AND THEN YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND, THAT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THAT POSITION.
I'M SO KIND OF GLAD THAT WE USED HIS TREATMENTS AS MILESTONES WITHIN THE FILM.
IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME THAT THE CHARACTER ACTUALLY GOES THROUGH SOME FORM OF PHYSICAL PAIN.
I THINK THAT WAS A CRUCIAL ELEMENT TO ME.
AND HE DID.
I KNOW.
YOU CAN SEE IT.
HE IS WHAT HE CHOSE.
BUT HE HAS ALSO BEEN GIVEN A GIFT.
I MET HIM TO RESEARCH THE ROLE.
IF YOU LOOKED AT HIS FACE, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW THIS BEFOREHAND, YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW MUCH YOU CAN SEE A LITTLE SKIN DISCOLORATION.
BUT YOU WOULDN'T KNOW.
HE HAS BEEN GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO RECLAIM HIS LIFE AND CHANGE HIS LIFE FOREVER.
I THINK WHEN HE LOOKS IN THE MIRROR HE WRECKENS WITH THE GUILT OF THE THINGS HE HAS DONE.
AND HE MUST REALIZE THAT HE HAS BEEN GIVEN AN INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY TO KIND OF START AGAIN.
AND WHAT DOES HE DO NOW?
WHAT IS HIS LIFE?
WHERE IS HE?
YOU KNOW, HE IS STILL DEALING WITH LIFE AS -- HE IS STILL GOING THROUGH THAT REDEMPTIVE PROCESS.
HE IS SOMEBODY THAT IS STILL ALSO LEARNING.
HE IS STILL LEARNING ABOUT LIFE OUTSIDE OF WHAT HE KNEW FOR 13 YEARS.
WE TALK EVERY NOW AND AGAIN, AND WE'RE ALWAYS JOKING AROUND ABOUT THIS AND THAT, NOT JUST ABOUT MUSIC, BUT ABOUT THE VERY THINGS THAT WE SEE GOING ON.
AND WE DEFINITELY ARE GETTING A KICK OUT OF BEING IN THIS ELEMENT.
WELL, LOOK --
HE HAS BEEN ON SET, I SHOULD SAY.
HE HAS BEEN ON SET AND HELPED US ALONG.
ME AND HIM HELPED THE MOVIE ALONG, HELPED THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS WE WERE DOING OUT THERE.
LOOK, THE FACT THAT IT'S COMING OUT NOW MEANS IT'S MORE THAN JUST A MOVIE.
IT'S A POLITICAL AND CULTURAL SIGN POST TO THE TIMES THAT WE LIVE IN.
I WONDER WHETHER YOU BOTH FEEL THAT WAY.
LET'S PLAY A MASH-UP OF TRUMP AND SOME OF THE OTHER POLITICIANS OVER THE LAST WEEK.
AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, IF YOU HATE OUR COUNTRY, IF YOU'RE NOT HAPPY HERE, YOU CAN LEAVE.
HE IS LAUNCHING A RACIST ATTACK.
THIS IS THE AGENDA OF WHILE NATIONALISTS.
THIS COUNTRY BELONGS TO YOU.
AND IT BELONGS TO EVERY J ONE.
EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THIS INSTITUTION, DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN, SHOULD JOIN US IN CONDEMNING THE PRESIDENT'S RACIST TWEETS.
I THINK THOSE TWEETS ARE RACIST AND XENOPHOBIC.
NO, I DON'T THINK IT'S RACIST TO SAY.
WAS IT RACIST TO SAY LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT?
THE STADIUM WAS PACKED.
IT WAS A RECORD CROWD.
AND I COULD HAVE TOLD IT TEN TIMES, AS YOU KNOW.
SEND HER BACK!
SEND HER BACK!
THOSE ARE INCREDIBLE PEOPLE, THOSE ARE INCREDIBLE PATRIOTS.
I MEAN, EVENLIS NOING TO THAT, SEND HER BACK, AND CALLING THEM PATRIOTS, IT GOES TO SHOW HOW IMPORTANT THIS FILM SAND TH MESSAGE IS.
WEIGH IN.
HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK IS RELEVANT TO TODAY?
WHAT WE'VE SEEN THIS LAST WEEK IN THIS COUNTRY IS, IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S RIPPED FROM THE PAGES, YOU KNOW, FROM 50, 60 YEARS AGO.
TO ME IT'S TERRIFYING.
I HOPE THIS FILM IS AN URGENT FIRE ALARM BELL, YOU KNOW, A WAKE-UP CALL THAT THIS IS STILL HAPPENING.
YEAH, AND IT'S EXACTLY WHY I DO WHAT I DO AND WHY AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR AS LONG AS WE HAVE.
I MEAN, I THINK THAT WHILE SHOWING CLIPS OF POLITICIANS, IN THE END IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT THE POLITICIANS BUT THE PEOPLE IN THE RALLY.
IT'S ABOUT US.
HOW WE RELATE TO EACH OTHER.
WE ARE GOING TO BE THE ONES WHO SOLVE OUR OWN PROBLEMS.
THOSE POLITICIANS ARE THERE BECAUSE WE PUT THEM THERE.
AND THEY WILL LEAVE BECAUSE WE PULL THEM OUT.
THAT'S HOW THAT'S GOING TO WORK.
WHAT I HOPE THIS MOVIE DOES IS SHOW PEOPLE WHY THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN AND WHAT KIND OF WORLD WE ARE CREATING FOR OURSELVES AND HOW WE CAN KEEP IT FROM GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.
WELL, I HOPE THIS BENEFITS THAT CONVERSATION IN THE LONG RUN.
I THINK EVERYBODY -- I HOPE EVERYBODY HOPES THAT AS WELL.
I MUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DAILY STORMER, YOU KNOW, MANY OF THESE, 8CHAN AND THE REST OF IT, THEY ARE REALLY LOVING ALL OF THIS TRUMP STUFF.
AND YOU KNOW THAT IT'S THE MOST HIGHLY TRAFFICKED NEO-NAZI WEBSITE.
THE FOUNDER SAID, MAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TWITTER ACCOUNT HAS BEEN PURIFIER LATELY.
THIS MIGHT BE THE KIND OF THING WE WAITED FOR.
AN 8CHAN OOZER SAID IT'S OKAY TO NOT WANT TO BE SWAMPED BY BROWN SCUM.
THESE INVADERS ARE WAY OUT OF LINE MAKING DEMANDS OF US.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO LIKE THE WAY WE RUN THINGS.
THEY CAN GO THE HELL BACK.
YEAH, IT'S UP TO US.
BUT THIS IS ONLINE, YOU KNOW, BEGIN GINNING UP THIS KIND OF STUFF.
ANDREW ENGLAND HASN'T SHOWN HIS FACE IN FLIPUBLIC IN YEARS.
WH WHOEVER IS ON IT IS ANONYMOUS.
THE FACT THAT THEY ARE AS FAR AWAY FROM US AS POSSIBLE TO AVOID THE CONFLICTS, AVOID TAN OPPOSITION TO A TESTAMENT TO US, IS A TESTAMENT TO WHAT WE WANT AND WHAT WE WILL REJECT WHEN WE SEE IT.
SO WHEN YOU SEE IT ONLINE, BE READY FOR IT, COMBAT IT, BUT REMEMBER THAT WE ARE STILL DECENT PEOPLE.
WE ARE STILL IN A GOOD PLACE.
WE JUST HAVE TO STAY THERE.
LOOK, 'SKIN' IS NOT JUST ABOUT HATE AND NEO-NAZI.
THEY OFTEN TALK ABOUT FAMILY, FEELING VALIDATED, FEELING SOMEBODY IS OUT THERE TO BRING THEM IN WHEN THEY FEEL ALIENATED.
THAT'S NOT AN UNUSUAL THOUGHT.
WE JUST HAD ON OUR PROGRAM A YOUNG WRITER, JAMEEL GIOVANNI, WHO WRITTEN 'WHY YOUNG MEN.'
HE TOLD MICHELLE MARTIN WHAT DREW HIM TO GANG CULTURE AS A YOUTH.
THERE WAS NO MERITOCRACY IN MY MIND.
WHAT'S THE POINT IN WORKING AT SCHOOL IF YOU THINK PEOPLE DON'T WANT YOU TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
WHEN YOU GO TO THE MALL, YOU ARE FOLLOWED AROUND BY SECURITY GUARDS.
IT ADDED UP TO A FEELING I'M NOT DESTINED FOR SUCCESS, SO WHY BOTHER.
THE ALIENATION AND FEELING OF VALIDATION AND FAMILY IN SOME OF THESE HATE-FILLED GROUPS.
YEAH.
I THINK THERE WAS A PARALLEL BETWEEN AS I POINTED OUT BEFORE WHETHER OR NOT YOU GO INTO WHITE POWER CREWS OR GO INTO SOME GARDEN-VARIETY STREET GANG, IF YOU GET YOURSELF INVOLVED IN THE CULT, IF YOU ARE RADICALIZED IN SOME FASHION, YOU CAN GO IN THAT DIRECTION OR GO ON A MORE POSITIVE DIRECTION, JOIN A POSITIVE CHURCH OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
I THINK IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH WE ARE REACHING OUT TO THOSE THAT ARE FEELING THAT BAGGAGE, FEELING LIKE THEIR LIVES AROUND WORTH A DAMN.
THAT'S WHO WE'RE DEALING WITH.
ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS IN THE MOVIE IS THAT THERE IS A CHARACTER NAMED GAVIN.
AND HE SAID THAT THE REASON WHY HE WAS IN THE MOVIE, AND I DON'T WANT TO SPOIL IT, I DON'T THINK IT'S A SPOILER, BUT HE SAID THE REASON WHY HE JOINED THE GROUP WAS BECAUSE HE WAS HUNGRY.
HE WAS THIS THE STREET WHEN THEY FOUND HIM.
WOW.
AND I SPOKE TO SOMEBODY ABOUT THAT SCENE A WHILE BACK, AND THAT TOOK THEIR PRESIDENT TRUMP A -- THEIR BREATH AWAY.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.
IT'S A REMARKABLE STORY AT A REMARKABLE TIME.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
> IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT SURELY A MUCH WATCHED FILM.
IT'S OUT IN SELECTED CINEMAS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TODAY.
> OUR NEXT GUEST IS THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL'S' EDITOR-IN-CHIEF MATT MURRAY TAKING OVER THE PAPER IN 2018, MURRAY HAS SINCE BEEN WORKING TIRELESSLY TO WIN BACK THE DWINDLING PUBLIC TRUST IN THE NEWS MEDIA.
HE SAT DOWN WITH OUR WALTER ISAKSON TO DISCUSS THE CHALLENGES FACING JOURNALISTS TODAY AND CELEBRATING 130 YEARS OF THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' IN PRINT.
MATT, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
THANKS, WALTER, FOR HAVING ME HERE.
GREAT TO BE HERE WITH YOU.
THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' HAS ONE OF THE MOST TRUSTED NAMES IN MEDIA, ACCORDING TO SURVEYS.
BUT IN SOME WAYS THAT'S LIKE BEING THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN IN LOUISIANA.
WHY IS THAT HAPPENING AND HOW DO YOU FIGHT THAT?
IT'S A CHALLENGE.
AND I THINK THE MEDIA HAS TO T SERIOUSLY THAT WE HAVE A MAJOR TRUST PROBLEM.
YES, AS YOU SAY, I'M HAPPY THAT IN MOST SURVEYS WE ARE AT THE TOP OR NEAR THE TOP AS TRUSTED.
BUT THE WHEEL MEDIA HAS SLID.
I THINK IT'S THINGS WE KNOW.
TECHNOLOGY HAS DRIVEN MORE POLARIZATION AND HOW WE CONSUME CONTENT AND AWARENESS OF CONTENT HAS BEEN A CHALLENGE FOR US.
OBVIOUSLY, LOTS OF POLITICIANS AND EXECUTIVES, THE PRESIDENT BEING THE FOREMOST EXAMPLE BUT NOT THE ONLY EXAMPLE, HAS FOUND THAT THEY CAN BEAT ABOUT THE MEDIA FOR WHATEVER WE WRITE, DENY ANYTHING THAT'S TRUTHFUL THEY DON'T.
GENERALLY, OF COURSE THE MORE TRUTHFUL IT IS, THE MORE ABUSE YOU GET, AND THAT'S BEEN ACCEPTED BY PEOPLE IN THIS POLARIZED WORLD.
I PERSONALLY THINK TO SOME EXTENT THEY ARE SELF-INFLICTED WOUNDS HERE, THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY ON OUR PART.
THERE HAS BEEN A MOVE IN CERTAINLY MAINSTREAM DAILY NEWS REPORTING OF THE KIND THAT THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' DOES.
THERE HAS BEEN A MOVE TOWARDS SO EMBRACING AUDIENCE DATA THAT I THINK WE'RE GETTING TOO OPINIONATED SOMETIMES IN OUR NEWS, WE ARE CONFUSING OPINION AND FACT TOO OFTEN, OTHER STRONG POINTS OF VIEWS IN A LOT OF STORIES THAT I THINK ARE AIMED OFTEN WITH GOOD INTENTIONS TO ENGAGE AN AUDIENCE BUT HAVE THE RISK OF ONLY SPEAKING TO PART OF THE AUDIENCE OUT THERE.
THAT LEAVES SOME OF THE REST OF THE AUDIENCE FEELING ALIENATED.
ONE MORE THING I'LL SAY.
I THINK WHEN WE MAKE MISTAKES, AND WE DO, JOURNALISM IS A HUMAN ENTERPRISE, WE AS AN INDUSTRY HAVE TO BE FORTHRIGHT, OWN UP TO THEM, TALK ABOUT THEM, ADMIT THEM, EXPLAIN WHAT WE DO.
WE ARE NOT VERY TRANSPARENT.
WE ARE SUFFERING THE SAME KIND OF LOSS IN FAITH IN INSTITUTIONS.
BUT WE ARE NOT ALWAYS HELPING OURSELVES.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE MEDIA HAS MOVED AWAY FROM A CONCEPT OF OBJECTIVITY AND A DESIRE OR A BELIEF THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO OBJECTIVE REPORTING?
I THINK CORNERS OF IT HAVE.
AND LOOK, I WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT THERE IS ALWAYS, OF COURSE, ROOM FOR A VERY ROBUST MEDIA ENVIRONMENT WITH OPINION JOURNALISM AND POINT OF VIEW AND DIFFERENT ELEMENTS.
BUT I THINK THAT IN THE CORE WHERE YOU WANT OBJECTIVE STRAIGHT NEWS, WHEN YOU DECLARE THAT'S YOUR INTENTION, I THINK AT TIMES, YEAH, IT'S BEEN HARDER TO FIND THAT.
UNDERSTANDABLY IN SOME WAYS BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE PRECIOUS OF TODAY AND -- PRESSURES OF TODAY AND CHALLENGES OF COVERING THE PRESIDENT TEST EVERYBODY'S OBJECTIVITY AND THE CHALLENGE OF BEING IN THE MIDDLE AND FINDING AN AUDIENCE IN THE MIDDLE SOMETIMES IS HARDER THESE DAYS THAN IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST.
I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK A POINT OF VIEW IS TRUTHFUL, THAT THE IDEA OF OBJECTIVITY IS A BIT OF A CANARD, THAT NOBODY IS TRULY OBJECTIVE, SO EMBRACE YOUR POINT OF VIEW.
YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT, DO YOU?
I THINK IF YOU DECLARE THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND YOU ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE IT AND YOU ARE TRANSPARENT ABOUT IT, I CAN ACCEPT THAT.
THE CHALLENGE I HAVE IS IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE OBJECTIVE AND PLAY IT STRAIGHT, YOU HAVE GOT TO REALLY STRIVE TO DO THAT, WHICH INCLUDES AN AWARENESS OF YOUR OWN BIASES.
YOU SAID THAT THE AGE OF TRUMP AND TRUMP HIMSELF MAKES IT HARDER TO JUST STAY ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW AND BE OBJECTIVE.
WHY IS THAT.
HE LIKES TO PUT US ON THE PLAYING FIELD.
THE PRESS.
NOT THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' PARTICULARLY.
HE LIKES TO MAKE AN ISSUE OF US.
HE HAS A HABIT, AS WE KNOW, OF SAYING THINGS AND THEN WHEN THEY ARE REPORTED SAYING I DIDN'T SAY THAT OR I WAS MISCHARACTERIZED OR USING US AS A HOBBY HORSE.
I THINK IT'S A GAME HE PLAYS WITH US.
SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO COVER HIM FAIRLY AND ACCURATELY, HOLD YOUR GROUND.
LOOK, THE PRESIDENT SOMETIMES WANTS TO PULL YOU IN THE MUD.
I THINK OTHERS ARE LEARNING THAT HABIT FROM HIM A LITTLE BIT.
YOUR PREDECESSOR WAS SOMETIMES CREDIT-SIZED IN OUR OWN NEWSROOM AND TAMPED DOWN BY EDGING AND TRYING TO KEEP IT ON THE PRO-TRUMP OR NOT AS ANTI-TRUMP AS THE REST OF THE PRESS.
DO YOU FEEL THAT'S SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH AND HOW DO YOU HANDLE THAT?
DOES YOUR STAFF SOMETIMES PUSH YOU AND SAY, HEY, HOW COME WE CAN'T USE THE WORD RACIST OR LIES?
I THINK THAT THE FIRST SIX OR SIX MONTHS OR A YEAR OF THE PRESIDENT'S TERM FOR PROVOKED A OF DISCUSSIONS.
HE IS A UNIQUE FIGURE IN SOME WAYS.
ONE OF THE CHALLENGES OF COURSE IS HE HOOAS OF A HABIT OF TWEETG OUT RACIST THINGS.
YOU GO TO TWEET BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE YOUR EYE OFF THE POLICY OVER HERE.
YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE ATTENTION TO EVERY OUTRAGEOUS THING.
HE IS A MASTER OF MEDIA.
HE PROBABLY UNDERSTANDS THE THINGS THAT PUNCH MEDIA BUTTONS THAN CERTAINLY MY PRESIDENT IN OUR LIFETIME.
HE IS GOOD AT IT.
HE KNOWS WHAT ORGANIZATIONS WILL DO TO GET CLICKS AND READERS AND TV VIEWERS.
HE IS GOOD AT THAT.
SO I THINK EVERYBODY WRESTLED WITH THAT.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I WAS A DEPUTY AT THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL.'
I WAS PART OF IT.
IT WAS ABOUT ALL OF US AND NOT JUST MY PREDECESSOR.
SO MY JUDGMENT IS WE DID PRETTY WELL IN THE END ON NOT FALLING INTO THOSE TRAPS AND I THINK ACTUALLY, I'M NOT GOING TO NAME NAMES, I THINK SOME PEOPLE WENT A LITTLE FAR IN THE OTHER DIRECTION OF SORT OF --
OTHER NEWS --
YES.
VERY ANTI-TRUMP ALL THE TIME IN A WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS NOT -- I DON'T KNOW THAT THE REPORTING ALWAYS BACKED UP THE ASSERTIONS, I WOULD SAY.
MY PREDECESSOR ALSO WAS THE ONE WHO SIGNED OFF ON THE MICHAEL COHEN COVERAGE AND SUPPORTED THAT AND RAN THE EARLY STORIES ON MICHAEL COHEN, WHICH LED TO THE ENTIRE INVESTIGATION ON COHEN.
IT'S STILL THE ONLY REPORTING LINE FROM ANY MAJOR PUBLICATION THAT'S IMPLICATED THE PRESIDENT DIRECTLY IN THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME.
WE WON THE PULITZER PRIZE FOR IT THIS YEAR.
I GET CREDIT FOR THAT, BUT MY PREDECESSOR, JERRY, DESERVES THE CREDIT FOR A LOT OF THAT WORK.
SO I THINK THAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH IS BEING FELT IN OTHER NEWS ROOMS, TOO.
GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, RECENTLY OF A MEETING YOU HAD TO HAVE IN THE NEWSROOM WHERE YOU HAD TO SORT SOMETHING OUT AND FIGURE OUT HOW DO WE PLAY THIS STRAIGHT?
WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME LAST WEEK WHEN THE PRESIDENT SENT OUT HIS INITIAL TWEETS ON THE SQUAD, ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO TERM THEM RACIST, WHICH WAS A BIG DISCUSSION AND A LOT OF NEWS ROOMS.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS A VERY TYPICAL KIND OF TRUMP TWEET WHERE HE WALKED RIGHT UP TO THE LINE, DIDN'T OVERTLY NECESSARILY IN THE EYES OF SOME PEOPLE OVERTLY USE EXPLICITLY RACIST LANGUAGE.
SOME PEOPLE CHARACTERIZE IT AS XENOPHOBIC.
GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM HAS BEEN USED FOR IRISH AND GERMANS AND OTHERS IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
I THINK ON THE FIRST DAY WE DESCRIBED IN A HEADLINE ON THE FRONT PAGE AS RACIALLY-CHARGED.
I THINK WE WENT FURTHEST OF THE BIG PAPERS IN PUTTING RACE IN THE HEADLINE ON THE FIRST DAY.
BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBATE AND DISCUSSION IN THE JOURNALISM WORLD ABOUT HOW FAR TO PUSH IT.
I THINK PEOPLE FELT GOOD ABOUT HOW WE DID IT.
WE CONTINUED TO HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH REPORTERS IN OUR WASHINGTON BUREAU AND TALK ABOUT IT AMONGST OURSELVES.
THERE ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THE NEWSROOM WE TALKED TO AND EVERY SINGLE PERSON I SOLICITED AND ASKED WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY SAID, FROM MY EXPERIENCE, IT'S NOT EVEN A CLOSE CALL.
I HAVE HEARD THAT ALL MY LIFE.
MEANING IT IS?
MEANING IT'S RACIST.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE ENDED UP USING THE WORD TO DESCRIBE THE TWEETS.
THIS CAME AFTER A LOT OF DISCUSSION AND DEBATE AMONGST OURSELVES.
AND SO I THINK YOU HAVE TO HAVE A NEWSROOM THAT HAS THOSE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS AS YOU RUN INTO THESE ISSUES AND AS THE WORLD EVOLVES TODAY.
THE AMERICAN ECONOMY HAS BEEN BOOMING FOR ALMOST A DECADE NOW.
I GET THERE IS THIS BIG POPOW L ULOUS AND RESENTMENT, BACKLASH, FEELING OF DISCOMFORT.
WHY IS THAT?
I THINK THE MIDDLE CLASS AND WORKING CLASS IN THE UNITED STATES WAS BATTERED FOR A LONG TIME, EVEN PRIOR TO THE FINANCIAL CRISIS.
OUR ECONOMIC CENTER AT THE TIME WAS WRITING STORIES WHICH WE DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME HOW SPOT ON HE WAS ABOUT HOW MUCH OF THE ECONOMY IN THE BUSH YEARS WAS FUELED BY CREDIT AND HOME EQUITY LOANS AND PEOPLE BORROWING, BUT REAL WAGES AND GROWTH STAGNATED AROUND 1999.
THEN YOU THROW IN CHINA AND IT'S CLEAR THAT AS THE CHINESE ECONOMY TOOK OFF, A LOT OF JOBS DID GO OVERSEAS TO CHINA AND OVERSEAS TO MEXICO AND SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING THERE.
THEN YOU GET THE MELTDOWN HITS ALL OF US.
UNEMPLOYMENT SHOOTS VERY HIGH.
A LOT OF PEOPLE LOST THEIR HOUSES.
A LOT OF PEOPLE TOOK BIG HITS ON THEIR CREDIT.
AND I THINK THERE ARE JUST DEEP SCARS, DEEP TRAUMAS ON A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE STILL WITH US.
I THINK THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE FEELING BATTERED FIVE YEARS AGO ARE FEELING MUCH BETTER TODAY, AND SHOULD BE FEELING MUCH BETTER TODAY, BUT I THINK THERE IS AN AIR OF CONTINGENCY ABOUT SOME OF IT FOR SOME PEOPLE AND THEY ARE STILL MAKING UP GROUND THAT WAS LOST.
YOU HAVE OFTEN SAID THAT RUPERT MURDOCH DOESN'T INTERFERE WITH YOUR WAY OF GUIDING THE EDITORIAL PRODUCT, BUT WHAT SORT OF GUIDANCE, WHAT SORT OF INVOLVEMENT DOES RUPERT MURDOCH AND, FOR THAT MATTER, NEWS CORP HAVE IN SEXTING THE DIRECTION OF THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL'?
SO, SINCE I HAVE BEEN ON JOB, AND I HAVE INTERACTED WITH HIM, I HAVE TO SAY THAT HE GENUINELY IS HANDS OFF ON GUIDING ON ANY STORIES OR STORY SELECTION OR HOW TO PLAY PARTICULAR STORIES.
NO GUIDANCE ON THAT.
IN FACT, I HAVE BEEN TOLD EXPLICITLY YOU ARE THE EDITOR, YOUR DECISION.
RUPERT DOES HAVE, I THINK, STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT HAVING A NEWSPAPER AND A PRODUCT THAT'S LIVELY AND ENGAGING.
SO HE IS A BELIEVER THAT OFTEN OUR STORIES ARE TOO LONG AND THAT PEOPLE LOSE INTEREST QUICKLY AND THAT YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE DATA.
SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY, GET OUT, MOVE ON.
I THINK, AND WE HAVE BEEN KNOWN BY NEWS CORP, I HAVE BEEN THERE 25 YEARS, AND WE HAVE BEEN OWNED BY NEWS CORP ALMOST 12 YEARS NOW.
SO, THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' DID NOT REALLY USE MUCH ART PRIOR TO THEIR ACQUISITION AND THEY HAVE BIG THOUGHTS ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY AND CREATIVE USE OF ART AND ENGAGING VISUAL SENSIBILITY, WHICH WE'VE DEVELOPED BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS THE LAST 12 YEARS.
SO, YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT THE DRAMA PHOTOGRAPHY, THE SPLASH OF THE FRONT PAGE, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.
THE CLASSIC COMPONENTS OF AN EXCITING NEWSPAPER THAT WAY.
I HEAR THOUGHTS ON THAT AND BEING ENGAGING, GRABBING ATTENTION, GETTING -- MAKING PEOPLE WANT TO SIT DOWN AND REALLY READ YOU AND COMPEL THEIR ATTENTION AND NOT TAKING IT FOR GRANTED.
I MEAN, THERE IS A LOT OF THAT, WHICH IS USEFUL IN TRANSLATING TO HOW WE THINK ABOUT THE DIGITAL PRODUCT.
LET ME ASK ABOUT A FEW THINGS THAT COULD WORRY YOU.
WHICH WORRIES YOU THE MOST?
THE FEDERAL DEFICIT?
I THINK IT'S WORRYING.
I THINK WE HAVE CROSSED A POINT TO WHERE THERE ISN'T ANYBODY IN EITHER PARTY REALLY HOLDING UP THE FLAG FOR THE DEFICIT.
I THINK BOTH PARTIES HAVE CROSSED THE LINE IN THEIR OPENNESS TO BUILDING THE DEFICIT UP MORE AND MORE AND MORE.
I THINK THAT WILL CATCH UP TO US EVENTUALLY.
A TRADE SKIRMISH WITH CHINA.
YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ARE SEEING SOME EFFECTS OF THIS TRADE SKIRMISH RIGHT NOW ON US.
I THINK PROBABLY WE WILL GET A DEAL OF SOME KIND.
IT MIGHT BE A MORE MODEST DEAL, NOT A TRANSFORMATIVE DEAL.
AND I THINK WE'VE ACTUALLY ABSORBED IT SO FAR A LITTLE BETTER THAN I WOULD HAVE PREDICTED A YEAR AGO.
I AM CAUTIOUS ON MAKING PREDICTIONS.
OBVIOUSLY, AN EXTENDED KIND OF VERY DISTANT ONGOING TRADE BATTLE WOULD HAVE REAL EFFECTS ON BOTH COUNTRIES.
I THINK WE PROBABLY ARE, AND IN SOME WAYS MAYBE WITH GOOD REASON, WE PROBABLY ARE HEADED TO A PERMANENT RECALIBRATION OF THE ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA EVEN IF WE GET A DEAL HERE ON THE MEIMMEDIATE TRADE STUFF.
A CRISIS WITH IRAN, A WAR WITH IRAN, MAYBE AN OIL CRISIS THAT WOULD COME FROM THAT?
I HATE TO SOUND CAVALIER ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS A RISK.
I THINK THE RISK WITH IRAN IS PROBABLY MORE OF AN ACCIDENTAL THING THAT HAPPENS, THAT SETS OFF A LARGER THING.
BUT I THINK RIGHT NOW, I THINK THERE IS A KIND OF A CALCULATED ESCALATION GAMESMANSHIP GOING ON HERE THAT PROBABLY IS RESOLVABLE IN SOME WAY AT SOME POINT.
WHAT OTHER THINGS WORRY YOU ABOUT THE ECONOMY?
WHAT DO YOU SORT OF TELL YOUR REPORTERS, HEY, WE BETTER KEEP AN EYE ON THIS?
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STILL LEFT OUT OF THE PROSPERITY OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY IN WAYS THAT NOT ALL OF US FULLY UNDERSTAND AND FULLY REALIZE.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN -- I WAS READING THIS BOOK, DIGNITY, THAT JUST CAME OUT BY CHRIS ARNADE THAT I DON'T KNOW, BUT IT'S GETTING ATTENTION.
YOU THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER BOOKS, THINK PEACE IS ABOUT THE TRUMP -- SOME OF THAT CAN BE A BIT SIMPLISTIC.
NONETHELESS, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE IS A LOT OF TOWNS IN AMERICA THAT WERE PROSPEROUS 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO.
THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WITHOUT ACCESS TO PROPER EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS OR OPPORTUNITIES TO MOVE UP AND FEEL VERY LEFT OUT, WHO ARE VULNERABLE IN THE COUNTRY.
AND AT THE SAME TIME I THINK YOU'VE GOT NEW YORK AND SAN FRANCISCO AND OTHER CITIES GETTING MORE AND MORE CONCENTRATED BY -- AND MORE AND MORE EXPENSIVE, AND IN SOME WAYS HARDER AND HARDER TO BREAK INTO FOR MANY PEOPLE AND HARDER AND HARDER TO UNDERSTAND.
I WORRY ABOUT THAT DIVIDE, AS MANY PEOPLE DO WHO ARE SMARTER THAN I AM ABOUT IT.
I THINK ARE WE REALLY IN A PLACE OF TWO ECONOMIES FOR MANY PEOPLE.
I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SHOULD CONCERN ALL OF US.
HOW CAN WE BRING MORE AMERICANS ON BOARD, YOU KNOW.
I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THIS.
IF YOU COULD RAISE EVERYBODY'S CREDIT SCORE IN THE UNITED STATES BY 50 POINTS AND BRING THEM MORE INTO THE ECONOMY, IT WOULD BE GREAT FOR THEM AND MORE PROSPERITY FOR ALL OF US.
I WORRY THAT WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THAT.
WE DON'T HAVE ANSWERS FOR THOSE PEOPLE ANYMORE.
AND I THINK SOME OF OUR POLITICS REFLECTS MAYBE SOMETIMES A SENSE THAT THERE IS A FINITE PIE AND WE ARE GRABBING FOR PIECES OF IT.
I DON'T KNOW HOW WE MAKE THE PIE BIGGER FOR EVERYBODY.
I THINK THAT'S A CONCERN.
YOUR FATHER BECAME A MONK.
YEAH.
AND YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT.
AND A PRIEST.
AND A PRIEST.
TELL ME HOW THAT AFFECTED YOUR VIEW OF YOUR PURPOSE IN LIFE.
THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
SO, YEAH, MY PARENTS WERE BOTH WRITERS, WHICH HAS AN INFLUENCE ON ME.
MY MOTHER DIED WHEN I WAS 7.
AND MY FATHER RETIRED EARLY FROM HIS JOB IN THE GOVERNMENT.
I GREW UP IN WASHINGTON.
AND HE FELT HE A CALLING.
HE BECAME RELIGIOUS WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.
AFTER I WENT TO COLLEGE HE ENDED UP GOING TO CENTRAL ILLINOIS TO TAKE VOWS IN A MONASTERY.
WENT TO SEMINARY FOUR YEARS, BECAME A PRIEST.
SPENT THE LAST 18 YEARS OF HIS LIFE AS A PRIEST IN THIS AREA.
YOU KNOW, I GUESS THE WAY THAT IT INFLUENCED ME IN WAYS I WASN'T CONSCIOUS OF AT THE TIME WAS A STRONG DESIRE THAT MY FATHER HAD TO HAVE PURPOSE AND MEANING IN LIFE AND TO PURSUE MEANING AND TO ACTIVELY PURSUE MEANING.
PARTICULARLY, TO DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL, ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE, AND OVER TIME IN THE SERVICE OF OTHER PEOPLE.
MY FATHER WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY GENEROUS PERSON TO OTHERS WITH HIS TIME.
FAR MORE THAN I AM.
AND I THINK THE EXAMPLE HE SET FOR ME OF PUTTING OTHERS FIRST AND SORT OF PURSUING WHAT FOR HIM WAS THE ULTIMATE MEANING AND IMPORTANCE WAS A PRETTY STRONG EXAMPLE FOR ME TO TRY TO, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST THINK ABOUT THE -- WHAT YOU ARE DOING TODAY OR THE IMMEDIATE TASK IN FRONT OF YOU, BUT ABOUT DOING SOMETHING MEANINGFUL.
AND REALLY ALWAYS REMEMBERING THAT YOU ARE WORKING WITH HUMAN BEINGS IN FRONT OF YOU, WHATEVER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, WHETHER YOU ARE WRITING HARD STORIES ABOUT THEM, WHICH WE DO A LOT OF TIMES AT THE JOURNAL, WHETHER YOU ARE HAVING MEETINGS WITH THEM, WHETHER THEY ARE WORKING WITH YOU, WHETHER THEY ARE YOUR BOSSES.
TRYING TO THINK ABOUT THE PERSONAL HUMAN INTERACTION AND THE MEANING OF TWO INDIVIDUALS COMING TOGETHER.
SO I HOPE I HAVE GOT SOME OF THAT FROM HIM.
MATT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
THANK YOU.
APPRECIATE IT.
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