July 29, 2019

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IF I HAD A 2% CHANCE OF LOSING THE ELECTION, I THINK CHINA WOULD PROBABLY SAY, LET'S WAIT.

LET'S WAIT.

MAYBE TRUMP WILL LOSE AND WE CAN DEAL WITH ANOTHER DOPE.

ANOTHER ROUND OF U.S./CHINA TRADE TALKS AS WASHINGTON HANDS OUT BILLIONS TO HELP ITS FARMERS.

WHAT'S THE GAME PLAN?

A RARE CONVERSATION WITH SENIOR ADVISOR PETER NAVARRO.

PLUS --

POLICE DETAIN MORE THAN 1,000 PROTESTORS IN MOSCOW AND IN AFGHANISTAN IS THE TALIBAN SMELLING BLOOD?

IS THE U.S. TOO EAGER TO WITHDRAW?

I SPEAK WITH TOP FOREIGN POLICY EXPERTS ABOUT THE WEEKEND'S WORRYING DEVELOPMENTS.

> AND --

WHO HAS SEEN AN ADVERTISEMENT THAT HAS CONVINCED YOU THAT YOUR MICROPHONE IS LISTEN TO GO YOUR CONVERSATIONS?

WHEN BIG TECH KNOWS YOU BETTER THAN YOU KNOW YOURSELF, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR OUR DEMOCRACIES?

OUR HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO YOU ABOUT THE BIG HACK.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AMERICAN AND CHINESE NEGOTIATORS HEAD TO SHANGHAI TRYING TO END THE YEAR-LONG ESCALATING TRADE WAR THAT'S BITING AT BOTH OF THEIR ECONOMIES.

PRESIDENT TRUMP BEGAN THIS STANDOFF SLAPPING TARIFFS ON CHINESE IMPORTS IN AN ATTEMPT TO HAVE BEIJING END UNFAIR PRACTICES.

THE DOUBTER IN CHIEF IS THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF NOW.

I THINK THAT CHINA WILL PROBABLY SAY, LET'S WAIT.

IT'S 14, 15 MONTHS UNTIL THE ELECTION.

LET'S SEE IF ONE OF THESE PEOPLE THAT GIVE THE UNITED STATES AWAY, LET'S SEE IF ONE OF THEM CAN POSSIBLY GET ELECTED.

AND I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, WHEN I WIN, LIKE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY THEY'RE ALMOST GOING TO SIGN DEALS, AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE PHENOMENAL DEALS FOR THE COUNTRY.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'RE -- I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE A DEAL.

MAYBE THEY WILL, MAYBE THEY WON'T, I DON'T CARE BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING IN TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND THE FARMERS ARE HAPPY BECAUSE I GAVE THEM $16 BILLION OUT OF THE TARIFFS.

HE'S REFERRING TO A $16 BILLION FEDERAL AID PACKAGE WHICH WAS ANNOUNCED ON THURSDAY INTENDED TO HELP THOSE FARMERS WHO PRODUCE THINGS LIKE SOY BEANS AND PORK AND WHO ARE HURT BY CHINA'S RETALIATORY TARIFFS.

THE FARMERS THOUGH ARE NOT ALL HAPPY.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN FARM BUREAU FEDERATION SAID LAST WEEK, QUOTE, AMERICA'S FARMERS ULTIMATELY WANT TRADE MORE THAN AID, SO WHAT CAN THEY EXPECT?

PETER NAVARRO IS A SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT FOCUSING ON TRADE POLICY.

HE JOINS US FOR A RARE CONVERSATION.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, MR.

NAVARRO.

LET'S FIRST TAKE WHAT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF SAYS, THAT HE'S ALREADY POURING COLD WATER ON THESE TALKS WHICH ARE DUE TO OPEN TOMORROW IN SHANGHAI DOESN'T NECESSARILY THINK THERE WILL BE A DEAL.

DO YOU AGREE THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN?

HERE'S WHAT I CAN TELL YOU.

WE HAVE BEST UNITED STATES TRADE REPRESENTATIVE IN OUR HISTORY, ROBERT LIGHTHEIZER ON A PLANE WITH TREASURY SECRETARY STEVEN MNUCHIN ON THEIR WAY TO SHANGHAI TO NEGOTIATE FOR WHAT I THINK WILL BE AT LEAST THE 12th MEETING ON THIS ISSUE.

MY STRONG PREFERENCE HERE IS TO LET THESE NEGOTIATIONS TAKE PLACE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND IF AND WHEN A DEAL IS REACHED, THERE WILL BE FULL TRANSPARENCY.

THE ONLY THING I CAN TELL YOU, CHRISTIAN, IS THIS IS NOT A TRADE DEAL IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE WHERE ONE COUNTRY LOWERS TARIFFS AND THE OTHER COUNTRY LOWERS SOME TARIFFS.

THE PROBLEM WE HAVE WITH CHINA IS STRUCTURAL.

CHINA ENGAGES IN VARIOUS FORMS OF ECONOMIC AGGRESSION.

LET ME JUST CHECK OFF THE LIST AND SEE IF WE AGREE THAT THIS IS HAPPENING.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S WELL KNOWN THAT CHINA HACKS OUR BUSINESS COMPUTERS TO TRACK OUR TRADE SECRETS.

CHINA ENGAGES IN WHAT'S CALLED FORCED TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER IN EXCHANGE FOR MARKET ACCESS INTO CHINA.

THAT'S WRONG.

CHINA STEALS OUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO THE TUNE OF SEVERAL HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

CHINA DUMPS PRODUCTS INTO OUR MARKETS WITH STEEL, ALUMINUM, ROBOTICS, AUTOS, WHATEVER IT IS WELL BELOW COST.

THAT'S OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF INTERNATIONAL TRADE.

THE STATE-OENTD ENTERPRISES OF CHINA, UNLIKE THE CAPITALIST ENTERPRISES OF MUCH OF THE REST OF THE WORLD, ENGAGE IN VARIOUS UNFAIR SUBSIDIZED PRACTICES.

CHINA HAS A HISTORY OF CURRENCY MANIPULATION.

FINALLY AND SERIOUSLY, CHINA IS A MAJOR SOURCE OF FENTANYL IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS KILLING OVER 50,000 AMERICANS A YEAR.

SO THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT WILL BE DISCUSSED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD ON THIS BUT THAT IS ALL I WILL SAY ABOUT THAT.

SO THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU DO TALK ABOUT A SERIES OF DEALS WITH CHINA.

MANY PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS.

DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A POSSIBILITY FOR SOME WINS, EVEN IF IT'S NOT A WHOLE TRADE DEAL THAT'S STRUCK?

LET ME -- THE OTHER THING I'LL SAY IS THAT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE IN 2 1/2 YEARS IS TRULY REMARKABLE IN THAT HE HAS BROUGHT TOGETHER A CONSENSUS ON THE ISSUE THAT WE MUST DEAL WITH THE CHINA ISSUE.

IF YOU LOOK AT POLLING ON THIS, EIGHT OUT OF TEN REPUBLICANS SUPPORT THE CHINA TARIFFS.

OVER HALF OF THE AMERICANS SUPPORT THE TARIFFS.

IN A RARE SHOW OF UNANIMITY ON CAPITOL HILL, BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE STRONGLY BEHIND THE PRESIDENT.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, I'VE BEEN TO THIS RODEO BEFORE AFTER THE MEETING IN BUENOS AIRES, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT NOW THAT THERE BE LITTLE DISCUSSION IN THE PRESS ABOUT THIS BECAUSE MOST OF IT WILL BE INACCURATE AND IF WE SIMPLY LET THE NEGOTIATORS DO THEIR JOBS.

ALL RIGHT.

IF WE'RE ABLE TO DO THAT, THEN WE MAY HAVE A DEAL.

IF NOT, WE'LL HAVE TARIFFS.

AS THE PRESIDENT SAID, WE'RE TAKING IN TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF TARIFFS, IN THE PROCESS, THIS IS THE IMPORTANT THING, THOSE TARIFFS DEFEND AMERICAN FARMERS, RANCHERS, AMERICAN MANUFACTURERS AGAINST THE STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS WE FACE WITH CHINA.

LET'S BE OPTIMISTIC.

THE STOCK MARKET IS VERY BULLISH.

THE ECONOMY IS VERY BULLISH.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER THINGS GOING ON IN THE ECONOMIC WORLD SUCH AS THE UNITED STATES/MEXICO/CANADA AGREEMENT THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO THIS ADMINISTRATION.

ALL RIGHT.

AND I'D BE HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT THAT, BUT LET'S MOVE ON FROM CHINA IF WE CAN.

WELL, NO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU A COUPLE OF THINGS BECAUSE YOU'VE RAISED A HUGE NUMBER OF ISSUES.

SO I FIRST WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS.

LOOK, THE PRESIDENT BASICALLY SAID TRADE WARS ARE GOOD AND THEY'RE EASY TO WIN, BUT THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN A YEAR NOW AND IT'S NOT WON.

YOU HEARD WHAT THE FARMERS SAID.

THEY WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE TRADE DEALS THAN AID AND SOME OF THEM HAVE BITTERLY CLAIMED HOW THEY'RE BEING HURT BY RETALIATORY TARIFFS.

SO I GUESS DO YOU THINK A CHANGE OF TACTICAL STRATEGY IS REQUIRED?

ON THE ISSUE OF TRADE, WHAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY IS A WORLD WHERE NUMEROUS COUNTRIES, NOT JUST CHINA, JAPAN, EUROPEAN UNION ENGAGE IN SYSTEMATICALLY UNFAIR PRACTICES.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE FACE, CHRISTIAN, IS UNDER THE RULES OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION IT'S PERFECTLY LEGAL, IF NOT FAIR, FOR OTHER COUNTRIES TO CHARGE US MUCH HIGHER TARIFFS AND ENGAGE IN NON-TARIFF BARRIERS.

OUR PHILOSOPHY IN THE ADMINISTRATION FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TAKING THE LEAD ON THIS IS FAIR, BALANCED AND RECIPROCAL TRADE.

THIS IS WHAT DEFINES THE PRESIDENT'S MISSION.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO LOOK AND SEE JUST HOW STRONG THE ECONOMY IS UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP AND UNDER THIS MOVE BASICALLY TO GET THIS TRADING REGIME IN A BETTER PLACE.

WE'VE CREATED OVER 6 MILLION JOBS.

WE'VE GOT 7 MILLION PEOPLE OFF FOOD STAMPS.

WE SEE HISTORICALLY LOW UNEMPLOYMENT RATES.

BLACKS, HISPANICS, WOMEN, DISABLED, VETERANS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS PARTICULARLY INTERESTING IS THAT WAGES ARE RISING DISPROPORTIONATELY FOR THOSE BLUE COLLAR MANUFACTURING WORKERS, AND ONE OF MY FAVORITE STATISTICS IS THE FACT THAT WE'VE CREATED OVER 500,000 MANUFACTURING JOBS COMPARED TO A LOSS OF 200,000 MANUFACTURING JOBS SINCE THE OBAMA/BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

OKAY.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON.

MY POINT HERE IS THAT CHINA IS A SMALL PART OF THE BIGGER ECONOMIC PUZZLE AND WE SHOULDN'T GET FIXATED.

I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT IN THIS INTERVIEW.

RIGHT.

BUT, SIR, YOU'VE JUST TALKED ABOUT THE AMERICAN ECONOMY.

YOU SAY DON'T GET FIXATED BUT YOU GUYS PICKED THIS FIGHT WITH CHINA AND I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER YOU HAVE AN END GAME.

NO, NO, THE TRADE TARIFFS.

YOU STARTED THE TARIFFS AND THAT IS ACTUALLY A TACT WHICH IS HURTING BOTH CHINESE AND AMERICANS.

ALL THE ECONOMISTS SAY THAT.

I'D LIKE TO PICK YOU UP AND ASK YOU THE BIGGER PICTURE, AS YOU WANT, AND THAT IS ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

SO, YES, THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN DOING REALLY WELL.

MANY IN THE CORPORATE AND HIGHER INCOME GROUP HAVE PRAISED THE TAX CUTS AND THE CORPORATE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, ISSUES THAT HAVE COME FORTH BUT WE'VE SEEN ON FRIDAY THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT REPORTING THE ECONOMY GREW 2.5% WHICH IS DOWN FROM THE ESTIMATE OF 3%. PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S GOOD, MODERATE, STEADY GROWTH SO I'M WONDERING WHETHER -- YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU'RE CONCERNED THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE A WHOLE DIFFERENT AIM WITH CHINA, WHICH IS MORE OF A DEFEAT IT AS A STRATEGIC RIVAL THAN JUST TAKE ON THESE, IN YOUR VIEW, LEGITIMATE ECONOMIC ISSUES AND TRADE ISSUES.

SO LET ME GIVE YOU SOME CONTEXT HERE.

I WAS ON THE CAMPAIGN WITH THE PRESIDENT.

I'M ONE OF THE FEW KELLYANNE CONWAY CALLS, THE UNBROKEN THREADS, AND DURING THE CAMPAIGN THE PRESIDENT RAN ON FOUR POINTS OF THE POLICY COMPASS ON THE ECONOMY.

IT WAS TAX CUTS TO STIMULATE INVESTMENT, DEREGULATION TO LOWER THE COSTS OF BUSINESS SO THEY COULD COMPETE GLOBALLY, IT WAS UNLEASHING OUR ENERGY SECTOR.

AND TODAY WE INCREDIBLY ARE THE NUMBER ONE OIL PRODUCER IN THE WORLD.

AND IT WAS BRINGING ABOUT FAIR TRADE.

AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS HAVE ALLOWED US TO GROW SIGNIFICANTLY F FASTER THAN WE SAW IN THE OBAMA/BIDEN ERA.

THEY WERE ABOUT 2 OR 2% OR BELOW.

WE HIT 3% IN 2018.

WE HIT 3.1% IN Q1.

THE QUESTION, ARE WE WORRIED ABOUT THIS LATEST NUMBER?

I THINK THE BIGGEST PROBLEM THAT WE HAD THAT'S REFLECTED IN THAT DATA IS THE FEDERAL RESERVE, WHICH FOOLISHLY BEGAN BACK IN MARCH OF 2018 TO RAISE INTEREST RATES, WHAT WOULD BE A TOTAL OF 100 BASIS POINTS.

AND WHAT HIGHER INTEREST RATES DO, CHRISTIANE, IS THEY DEPRESS INVESTMENT AND THEY DEPRESS OUR EXPORTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THIS 2.1% GROWTH RATE THAT WE HIT IN Q2, IT WAS ABOVE EXPECTATIONS, THAT'S GOOD NEWS.

WHERE DID WE LOSE IT?

WE LOST A FULL POINT BECAUSE OF LOWER PRIVATE SECTOR INVESTMENT AND WE ALSO LOST 2/3 OF A POINT TO LOWER EXPORTS AND ON TOP OF THAT WE LOST .4 OF A POINT TO THE BOEING 737 MAX PROBLEM.

SO WE COULD HAVE BEEN NORTH OF 4% IF THE FED HADN'T RAISED INTEREST RATES AND IF BOEING HAD NOT HAD THAT PROBLEM.

THAT'S GOOD NEWS BECAUSE THIS WEEK IT WAS WIDELY EXPECTED THAT THE FED WILL LOWER INTEREST RATES.

I HOPE THEY LOWER 50 BASIS POINTS AND A FULL HUNDRED BY AT LEAST JUNE OF 2020.

IF THEY DO THAT AND IF WE PASS THE U.S./MEXICO/CANADA AGREEMENT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU WE'LL FLY WELL PAST DOW 30,000, WE'LL BE OVER 3% GROWTH RATE.

OKAY.

THIS IS JUST A MISTAKE IN THIS ECONOMY.

LET ME JUST JUMP IN A LITTLE BIT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT REPORTS ON -- I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EXPORTS AND TRYING TO MAKE U.S. EXPORTS MORE ATTRACTIVE AND TRYING TO BOOST THE ECONOMY.

YOUR REPORTS, YOU'RE FOCUSED ON THEM, OVER THE WEEKEND THAT YOU HAD RECOMMENDED LAST TUESDAY THAT THE PRESIDENT WEAKEN THE U.S. DOLLAR BY ABOUT 10% IN ORDER TO MAKE U.S. EXPORTS MORE ATTRACTIVE TO FOREIGN BUYERS.

ONE PERSON IN THE ROOM, ACCORDING TO POLITICO, SAID THAT YOU HAD BARELY BEGUN YOUR PRESENTATION AND THEN, QUOTE, BEFORE GETTING SLAUGHTERED BY THE PRESIDENT.

NOW IS THAT TRUE?

DID YOU RECOMMEND?

IS THE PRESIDENT AGAINST DEVALUING THE DOLLAR?

WHAT HAPPENS IN THE OVAL STAYS IN THE OVAL AND I'M NOT GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE OVAL THAT DAY.

RIGHT.

THEN LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DO YOU ACCEPT -- WELL, DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO DEVALUE THE DOLLAR?

AND DO YOU AGREE WITH MOST ECONOMISTS WHO SAY IT'S CRITICAL THAT THE WORLD'S RESERVE CURRENCY, WHICH IS THE DOLLAR, DOES NOT GET DEVALUED BECAUSE THAT ADDS A WHOLE NOTHER LEVEL OF ECONOMIC BURDEN.

BEING THE ERESERVE CURRENCY YOU HAVE THE BENEFITS.

THIS DISCUSSION IS BASICALLY FRUIT OF THE POISON TREE.

THAT DISCUSSION IN THE OVAL NEVER SHOULD HAVE WENT PUBLIC AND I'M REALLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT CURRENCY.

I DO THAT IN PRIVATE WITH OUR TRADE TEAM AND CURRENCY PUBLICLY IS THE PROVIDENCE OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE TREASURY SECRETARY.

YEAH, BUT I GUESS I JUST WANT TO ASK YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER A STRONG DOLLAR IS IMPORTANT IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO HAVE THE BENEFITS OF BEING THE WORLD'S RESERVE CURRENCY?

I THINK THAT THE TERMINOLOGY OF A STRONG VERSUS WEAK DOLLAR IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO UNDERSTANDING THE MACRO FORCES THAT SHAPE THE U.S. ECONOMY, THE WORLD ECONOMY.

IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF -- STRONG IS -- WEAK IS A PEJORATIVE TERM IN PEOPLE'S MINDS.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE DOLLAR IS OVER VALUED AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT MOST ECONOMISTS BELIEVE THAT TO BE TRUE.

AN OVER VALUED DOLLAR WILL LEAD TO FEWER EXPORTS, MORE IMPORTS, HIGHER TRADE DEFICIT AND SLOWER GROWTH.

THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT IF ANYTHING?

AND THAT DISCUSS WILL HAPPEN WHEN IT INVOLVES ME BEHIND CLOSED DOORS NOT PUBLICLY.

LOOK, I'M GLAD WE HAVE YOU HERE.

YOU ARE QUITE A CONTROVERSIAL FELLOW.

YOU DO DRAW A LOT OF SLINGS AND ARROWS FROM PRESIDENTIAL ADVISORS AND ECONOMISTS AND THE MEDIA.

LET ME JUST RUN THROUGH A FEW OF THEM FOR YOU AND YOU CAN RESPOND.

'THE NEW YORK TIMES' DESCRIBED YOU AS BEING SO FAR OUTSIDE OF THE MAINSTREAM THAT YOU ENDORSED FEW OF THE ECONOMIC PROFESSION.

'THE NEW YORKER' SAYS THAT YOUR VIEWS ON TRADE AND CHINA ARE SO RADICAL THAT EVEN WITH YOUR ASSISTANCE THIS WRITER WAS UNABLE TO FIND ANOTHER ECONOMIST WHO FULLY AGREES WITH THEM.

DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU REACT?

SUCH A BIG SECTION OF THE ECONOMIC LANDSCAPE THINKS OF YOU?

SO CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?

IF YOU LIKE, BUT THIS ISN'T REALLY YOU ASKING ME QUESTIONS.

I'M INTERVIEWING YOU.

JUST ONE QUESTION.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE PREMISE NOW THAT CHINA AND ITS ECONOMIC MODEL PROVIDES A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON THE GLOBAL ECONOMY?

COULD WE AT LEAST AGREE ON THAT?

WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M NOT AN ECONOMIST.

I CERTAINLY DO UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEMS WITH INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND ALL THE OTHER ISSUES THAT YOU GUYS ARE DEALING WITH.

I'M JUST LOOKING AT THE FACTS THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW JUST YOUR REACTIONS.

SURE.

SURE.

FOR INSTANCE, WHEN GARY C COHEN, FORMER COLLEAGUE SAID --

I'LL ANSWER THE QUESTION.

YOU'RE MAKING S-H BLAH, BLAH UP.

YEAH.

THE GREAT WAYNE GRETZKY, THE HOCKEY PLAYER, SAID THAT HE ALWAYS TRIED TO SKATE TO WHERE THE PUCK WAS GOING TO BE.

I THINK RIGHT NOW IT'S CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IN WASHINGTON THAT CHINA HAS BASICALLY ADOPTED AN ECONOMIC MODEL WHICH HARMS THE UNITED STATES AFTER THEY JOINED THE WTO WE LOST FACTORY JOBS.

THAT'S THE CON VVENTIONAL WISDO IN 2019.

I WROTE A BOOK IN 2006 WHICH TODAY READS LIKE ANY GOVERNMENT REPORT ON THE CHINESE ECONOMY.

AT THE TIME I WAS WIDELY RIDICULED IN NEWSPAPERS LIKE 'THE FINANCIAL TIMES' AND I WAS ACCUSED OF HYPERBOLE AND TODAY THAT BOOK IS QUAINT IN TERMS OF DESCRIBING THE PROBLEM.

SO DO I WORRY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZE ME FOR NOT SEEING THE CHESS BOARD CORRECTLY?

NO, I DON'T.

I WAS ACCURATE, FOR EXAMPLE -- MY MACRO FORECASTOR BY PROFESSION BEFORE I GOT INTO CATCHING TON, D.C.

I FORECAST THE HOUSING BUBBLE.

I FORECAST THE STOCK MARKET CRASH IN 2007 AND SO, NO, I DON'T MIND BEING AHEAD OF THE CURVE.

DONALD TRUMP WAS AHEAD OF THE CURVE ON TRADE BACK IN THE '80s AND NOW HERE WE ARE.

ALL RIGHT.

LET'S HOPE THAT WE HAVE A RESOLUTION TO THIS TRADE WAR.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO WRAP UP SOMETHING THAT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, BEING AHEAD OF THE CURVE AND SEEING THESE EXISTENTIAL CRISES.

BACK IN 2007 YOU WERE CERTAINLY OF YOUR TIME AND MAYBE EVEN AHEAD OF THE CURVE ON GLOBAL WARMING.

YOU SAID THAT IT'S A VERY SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM AND CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS ARE THE PRINCIPAL CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARNING.

YOU SAID ECONOMISTS ARGUE THAT THE MOST EFFICIENT DIRECT PATH TO INDEPENDENCE WILL BE TO TAX OIL IMPORTS AND GASOLINE AS WELL AS CARBON AND YOU ACTUALLY SUPPORTED PRESIDENT OBAMA'S ADOPTION OF WIND ENERGY TO COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE.

NOW YOU WORK FOR A PRESIDENT WHO THINKS THE OPPOSITE AND IS BUSY ROLLING BACK REGULATIONS AND EMPOWERING THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

DOES THAT KEEP YOU UP AT NIGHT?

DO YOU STILL FEEL THE SAME PERSON ON CLIMATE AS IN 2007 OR HAVE YOU CHANGED?

ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THE PRESIDENT DID THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT WAS GETTING OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD, AND THE REASON WHY I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE CORRECT THING TO DO IS THAT WAS A FREE PASS TO OTHER COUNTRIES, LIKE INDIA AND CHINA, TO POLLUTE.

IF WE HAD GONE INTO THAT AGREEMENT, THE AMERICAN ECONOMY WOULD HAVE SUFFERED MIGHTILY.

THIS IS NOT MY LANE.

I'M A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL.

I DON'T WORK ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

I HAVEN'T WORKED ON THAT FOR A MINUTE SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE.

MY MISSION, CHRISTIANE, I TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY, IS TO CREATE GOOD JOBS AT GOOD WAGES FOR THE MEN AND WOMEN OF AMERICA WHO WORK WITH THEIR HANDS AND WHETHER IT'S A SHIPYARD IN WISCONSIN OR A COMBAT PLANT IN OHIO OR F-16 PRODUCTION LINE IN GREENVILLE, THESE ARE THE KIND OF JOBS THAT ARE REVIVING THIS COUNTRY AND HELPING PEOPLE WHO WEAR BLUE COLLARS NOT WHITE ONES TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT THEY DO AND BE ABLE TO HAVE STRONG FAMILIES AND, ONCE AGAIN, ENJOY THE AMERICAN DREAM HERE, AND THAT'S WHAT MY MISSION IS.

SO THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT I FOCUS ON EVERY DAY SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, 60 HOURS A WEEK, AND I'M HONORED AND PRIVILEGED TO SERVE THIS PRESIDENT.

PETER NAVARRO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

> WE'RE TURNING NOW TO SOME BIG DEVELOPMENTS CONCERNING THE UNITED STATES WITH REGARDS RUSSIA AND AFGHANISTAN.

FIRST, MOSCOW WHERE POLICE HAVE RETURNED OPPOSITION LEADER TO JAIL TODAY AFTER HE WAS HOSPITALIZED WITH A MYSTERIOUS ILLNESS.

HIS LAWYER SAYS THAT HE WAS, QUOTE, POISONED.

HE WAS DETAINED BEFORE THIS WEEKEND'S BIG PROTEST TO DEMAND FAIR ELECTIONS.

A VIOLENT CRACKDOWN LED TO THE DETENTION OF 1074 PEOPLE.

LESS IN THE HEADLINES BUT MUCH MORE DEADLY THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN.

MORE THAN 20 ARE DEAD AND AT LEAST 50 WOUNDED AFTER THIS WEEK END BE'S ATTACK ON THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT GHANI'S RUNNING MATE.

THE FORMER CIA DIRECTOR MICHAEL MORALE POURED COLD WATER ALL OVER THE U.S. PEACE TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN CALLING THEM, QUOTE, A CHARADE.

FOR MORE I'M JOINED BY JULIA JAFFE.

SHE'S A CORRESPONDENT FOR GK MAGAZINE.

THE PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR WHO'S ENDORSED.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

AT THIS JUST TURN TO YOU FIRST, JEWEL YEAH, AND ASK YOU ABOUT THESE PROTESTS.

THESE ARE THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PROTESTS IN A LONG TIME.

SOME ARE SAYING SINCE PRESIDENT PUTIN'S 2012 VICTORY.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THESE ARE HEADED AND HOW SERIOUS THAT NAFARI MAY HAVE BEEN HURT WITH CHEMICALS IN PRISON?

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, CHRISTIANE.

THESE ARE THE BIGGEST PROTESTS WE'VE SEEN IN A WHILE.

HE'S BEEN REALLY GOOD AT GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF THE SYSTEM.

DONE THIS A FEW TIMES INCLUDING ACROSS ALL OF RUSSIA IN 2017 WHEN OVER 1,000 PEOPLE WERE DETAINED.

PUTIN'S RATINGS ARE AT THEIR LOWEST POINT THAT THEY'VE BEEN SINCE THE BIG PROTESTS IN 2011, 2012.

RUSSIA'S WEALTH GAP IS NOW THE LARGEST IN THE WORLD.

THE MOOD IS CERTAINLY SHIFTING.

PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF ALL THE CORRUPTION, BUT THE QUESTION IS WHAT HAPPENS?

THESE ARE -- THIS IS STILL A TINY PROPORTION OF NOT JUST THE RUSSIAN POPULATION BUT THE MOSS CUE POPULATION.

THEY'RE NOT OUT THERE FOR ABSTRACT POLITICAL PRINCIPLES, THEY WANT TO BE REPRESENTED ON A VERY SMALL, LARGELY INSIGNIFICANT BODY OF THE MOSCOW COUNCIL.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO BE ON THE BALLOT LET ALONE RUN THE CITY OR THEIR COUNTRY.

ISN'T THAT, JULIA, THE POINT?

YEAH.

YOU JUST RAISED THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION.

IT IS SUCH AN INSIGNIFICANT INNER CITY COUNCIL IN MOSCOW, WHY THE MASSIVE CRACKDOWN BY THE POLICE?

IT GOES WITH PUTIN'S ZERO TOLERANCE APPROACH TO THESE THINGS.

YOU DON'T GIVE THESE PEOPLE AN INCH BECAUSE IF THEY'RE SEEN IN ANY WAY AS LEGITIMATE, IN ANY WAY AS REAL TO HIM, IT UNDERMINES THE WHOLE BASIS OF HIS POWER.

AT THIS POINT HE HAS BEEN IN CHARGE FOR ALMOST A DECADE.

HIS POPULARITY IS THERE IS NOBODY TO TAKE OVER FOR HIM AND, THEREFORE, HE HAS TO CONTINUE RULING THE COUNTRY.

HE DOESN'T SAY -- THE BIGGEST MOST ORGANIZED THREAT, HIS NAME ISN'T EVEN PRONOUNCED ON TV, YOU KNOW?

THESE PROTESTS GOT NO COVERAGE ON STATE TV OR ALMOST NO COVERAGE SO A LOT OF RUSSIANS DON'T EVEN KNOW THEY HAPPENED AND THAT'S ON PURPOSE.

LET ME --

VERY ISOLATED MARGINAL MOVEMENT.

HUSSEIN HAKANI, LET ME TURN TO YOU BECAUSE IN SORT OF THE ELECTION LANE, SO TO SPEAK, ELECTIONS ARE UNDERWAY OR AT LEAST THE CAMPAIGN IN AFGHANISTAN.

WE HAD THIS MASSIVE ATTACK ON ONE OF THE CANDIDATES OVER THE WEEKEND.

HE SURVIVED BUT SOME 20 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

AT THE SAME TIME, HUSSEIN, UNITED STATES IS INVOLVED IN TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN WHICH ARE NOT PEACE TALKS.

TELL ME -- THERE SEEMS TO BE A COUNTER INTUITIVE INTEREST GOING ON.

IT SEEMS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DECIDED THAT HE WANTS TO KEEP HIS PROMISE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT HE IS GOING TO WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN AND THE TALKS ARE ESSENTIALLY WITHDRAWAL TALKS.

THE PURPOSE IS TO TRY AND GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THERE WAS SOME KIND OF SETTLEMENT BEFORE AMERICA LEFT INSTEAD OF LEAVING ARBITRARILY.

THE AMERICAN NEGOTIATING TEAM HAS NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT WHICH IS AMERICA'S ALLY AND WITH WHICH AMERICA HAS A BILAT R58 SECURITY AGREEMENT.

THE TALIBAN IS MAKING IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY HAVEN'T CHANGED.

SO ALL THAT THESE FAUX ARE INTENDED FOR IS TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE A FIGURE LEAF FOR WITHDRAWAL.

THAT IS SIMILAR TO WHAT THE FORMER CIA DIRECTOR MICHAEL MORELL HAS SAID, CALLING THEM A CHARADE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO PULL OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

IT'S PRETTY INTENSE WHEN THE FORMER CIA DIRECTOR SAYS THAT.

HE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE.

THE FORMER AMERICAN AFMBASSADOR HAS SAID THE SAME THING.

WE BASE OUR OPINION ON HISTORY.

LET'S BE VERY CLEAR, THE TALIBAN ARE A TOTALITARIAN, IDEOLOGICAL MOVEMENT.

THEY HAVE A PARTICULAR WORLD VIEW.

WE KNOW HOW THEY'RE TREATING THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN.

THEY GOT INTO POWER WITH THE SUPPORT OF PAKISTAN.

IT HAS BEEN FACILITATED BY PAKISTAN FOR WHICH THE PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER GOT A VISIT TO WASHINGTON, D.C.

ALL THEY ARE DOING IS NEGOTIATING WITH THE AMERICANS SO THAT THE AMERICANS CAN LEAVE WITHOUT LOOKING LIKE THEY ARE CUTTING AND RUNNING EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE CUTTING AND RUNNING.

AND JUST BRIEFLY AGAIN BEFORE I TURN BACK TO JULIA, YOU HAVE SAID THAT ESSENTIALLY THE TALIBAN IS SMELLING BLOOD AND YOU ACTUALLY RAISE SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF WOET IN 'THE ART OF THE DEAL' BACK IN 1987.

HE SAID THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO IN A DEAL IS SEEM DESPERATE TO MAKE IT.

THAT MAKES THE OTHER GUY SMELL BLOOD AND THEN YOU'RE DEAD.

THAT'S WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS SAYING THE PRESIDENT IS DOING.

LOOK, CHRISTIANE, ALL OF US WANT PEACE.

IF THESE WERE GENUINE PEACE TALKS, WE WOULD ALL SUPPORT THEM.

I THINK A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT SHOULD ESSENTIALLY BE BASED ON THE PREMISE THAT PAKISTAN WILL NO LONGER SUPPORT THE TALIBAN AND WILL GIVE UP SOME OF THE CORE ELEMENTS THAT DOES NOT RECOGNIZE CONTEMPORARY CONCEPTS OF HUMAN RIGHT.

THAT SHOULD BE THE BASIS OF PEACE, AND THEN THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT WHICH EXISTS SHOULD BE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE PROCESS.

UNLESS ALL OF THOSE CONDITIONS ARE MET, THESE WILL NOT BE SEEN AS PEACE TALKS.

THE TALIBAN ARE ALREADY SAYING IN THEIR OWN MEDIA THAT WE HAVE WON AND WE ARE ABOUT TO BE VICTORIOUS AND WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT AS YOU ASK ME, AL QAEDA COUNTED THE TALIBAN AMONG ITS ALIBIS.

SO ESSENTIALLY THESE ARE FALSE PREMISES ON WHICH AMERICA PLANS TO WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN INSTEAD OF A GENUINE PEACE DEAL.

THAT'S WHY THE TALIBAN SENSES THERE IS FRUSTRATION AND YOU SHOULD NOT NEGOTIATE WITH A SENSE OF DESPERATION OVER YOU.

WE HAVE LISTED ALL OF THE CONDITIONS THAT ARE NOT FANTASY.

IF IT'S NOT GOING WELL FOR THE U.S. THERE, IT'S HE NOT NECESSARILY GOING WELL FOR THE U.S. IN RUSSIA EITHER.

WHAT IS -- I MEAN, WHAT CAN THE UNITED STATES DO, IF ANYTHING, AT THIS POINT TO ENCOURAGE PRESIDENT PUTIN IN THE DEMOCRATIC SPACE.

I SEE YOU SHAKING YOUR HEAD.

IT IS COMPLETELY UNLIKELY IN THE CURRENT STATE?

YOU HAD SECRETARY MIKE POMPEO BEING ASKED ABOUT THE PROTESTS AND HE BASICALLY SHRUGGED IT OFF WHICH IS SUCH A DEPARTURE FROM U.S. PRECEDENT ON THESE THINGS.

HONESTLY, IT'S NOT SURPRISING.

WE ARE NOW HEADED BY A PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, WHO OPENLY ADMIRES MEN LIKE VLADIMIR PUTIN, LIKE MEN LIKE KIM JONG-UN.

WHEN KIM JONG-UN TALKS HIS PEOPLE SIT UP AND LISTEN.

THAT'S WHAT I WANT.

HE HAS ASKED VLADIMIR PUTIN FOR A DEVICE ON HOW TO DEAL WITH PESKY JOURNALISTS AND FAKE NEWS.

THE INDEPENDENT TV STATION, BASICALLY THE ONLY ONE LEFT IN RUSSIA, TV RAIN, HAD POLICE SHOW UP AT ITS HEADQUARTERS, ITS STATION, THE EDITOR IN CHIEF WHO WAS A FRIEND OF MINE WAS CALLED IN FOR HOURS AND HOURS ON QUESTIONING.

MORE JOURNALISTS CALLED IN POTENTIALLY AS -- EITHER AS WITNESSES OR AS PARTICIPANTS IN A CRIMINAL CASE.

SO, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, WE'VE -- IT COMES FROM THE VERY TOP IN THE UNITED STATES AND THIS IS A -- WE'RE LED BY A PRESIDENT WHO OPENLY ADMIRES AUTHOR RI TARNS AND CLEARLY WANTS TO BE LIKE ONE.

I THINK UNTIL THIS PRESIDENT IS OUT OF OFFICE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE ANY KIND OF COAXING OF RUSSIA OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY INTO THE DEMOCRATIC COLUMN.

BUT THE VERY REAL IMPACT OF RUSSIA ON AMERICA'S INSTITUTIONS ARE AT RISK AS ROBERT MUELLER POINTED OUT IN HIS TESTIMONY BEFORE CONGRESS LAST WEEK ABOUT ELECTION INTERFERENCE.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY YOU A LITTLE BIT OF THE SOUND BITE.

FIRST, OUR INVESTIGATION FOUND THAT THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT INTERFERED IN OUR ELECTION IN SWEEPING AND SYSTEMATIC FASHION.

THEY'RE DOING IT AS WE SIT HERE AND THEY EXPECT TO DO IT DURING THE NEXT CAMPAIGN.

SO, JULIA, I MEAN, YES.

I MEAN, IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S HAPPENING.

IT'S UNDERWAY.

IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

ANY LIGHT AT THE END OF THAT TUNNEL IN TERMS OF U.S. EFFORTS TO PROTECT AGAINST THAT?

WELL, YOU ALSO HAD THE SENATE REPORT WHICH SAID RUSSIA -- WE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS BEFORE, THAT RUSSIA PROBED ALL 50 CARS FROM 2016.

YOU DO IT AND YOU DON'T REALLY GET PIN NISHD.

YOU HAVE THE SENATE REPUBLICANS BLACK ANY LAWS THAT WOULD STRENGTHEN ELECTION INFRASTRUCTURE.

DONALD TRUMP PUSHED OUT DAN COATES AND IS NOMINATING BASICALLY A POLITICAL OPERATOR OF A CONGRESSMAN WHO HAS DECRIED THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION AND ALL OF THESE ELECTION SECURITY EFFORTS 20B THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE.

IN PART BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS HELPED HIM.

AS HE ADMITTED FROM THE FOREIGN OFFICE, IF A FOREIGN COUNTRY WANTS TO HELP HIM WIN, HE WILL TAKE THAT.

WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO'S WILLING TO WIN AT ALL COSTS EVEN IF A FOREIGN ADVERSARY HELPS HIM.

HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN STRENGTHENING OUR ELECTION PROCEDURE.

HUSSEIN, PICK UP THIS THREAT ABOUT ELECTIONS, PROMISED TO BRING THOSE HOME.

WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF AIRCRAFT AND THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, MULTIPLE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS AND NOBODY REALLY TO SET UP THE PROPER AFGHAN SECURITY FORCES.

SO WHY SHOULDN'T THE PRESIDENT AND THOSE OTHERS.

ENOUGH ALREADY.

THE QUESTION IS DOES THAT BA BASICALLY MEAN CUTTING DOWN COSTS FOR WHICH THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

SHOULD IT BE ABOUT REDUCING THE EXPENSES OF THE AMERICAN FORCES, EVERYTHING FROM CHEWING GUM AND IF THAT CAN DO THE JOB, WHY NOT?

MY POINT IS OF COURSE HOW AMERICAN DOMESTIC POLITICS IS DISPLAYED.

THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO ANNOUNCE VICTORY WITHOUT HAVING VICTORY.

THAT'S NOT FAIR TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT FAIR TO THE IRAN PEOPLE WHO WILL BE LEFT AT THE MERCY OF THE TALIBAN GOVERNMENT EVEN THOUGH THEY SIGNED A BILAT ERAL AGREEMENT.

LOOK, LET'S NOT GET THIS WRONG.

THEY SUPPORTED THE TALIBAN LONG BEFORE THE AMERICANS SHOWED UP.

THE AMERICANS CAME AFTER 9/11.

THEY WERE FIGHTING THE TALIBAN EVEN THEN.

THEN WE HAVE GRAND PEOPLE AND DO YOU WANT TO BE KNOWN AS THE COMPANY THAT CAME IN BIG WITHOUT REALLY PROTECTING THE GAINS OF THE LAST 17 YEARS.

MASSIVELY IMPORTANT ISSUES.

HUSSEIN AND JULIA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

RUSSIA POSES A PARTICULAR CAP CORRUPTION AREA.

THE FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL SAID THEY'RE STILL AT IT RAMPING UP FOR THE ELECTION OF 2020.

A SOMETIMES LAWLESS SPACE WHERE CITIZEN'S DATA IS INCREASINGLY BEING COLLECTED WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR PERMISSION.

THE NEW NETFLIX FILM CAN DRIVE WEDGES OF FEAR AND HATE TO WIN ELECTIONS AND TO UNDERMINE THOSE.

THAT MATE THE CONTROL ROOM WITH OUR HURRY STRING OF ASSETS.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, A QUICK REFRESHER COURSE.

YOUR WHOLE MOVIE DOES THIS.

IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS, WHAT DID CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA DO?

CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA REALIZED THAT YOUR PHONE IS NOT LIST JOANING IN ON YOU BUT THAT THAT FEELING THAT YOUR PHONE IS LISTENING IN ON YOU IS EVIDENCE.

HOW?

BECAUSE YOU'RE GIVING ALL OF THESE DIGITAL FOOTPRINTS OF YOURSELF CONSTANTLY INTO THE SYSTEM OF SURVEILLANCE CAPITALISM.

THERE IS A VOODOO JOB.

CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA USE THE MOST POWERFUL BEHAVIORAL CHANGE AGENCY TO COLLECT 5,000 DATA POINTS ON EVERY SINGLE VOTER AND USE THOSE TO FIND THE KEY PERSUADABLE AUDIENCE IN SWING STATES AND TARGET THEM WITH CUSTOMIZED ADVERTISEMENT.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP OF YOUR TRAILER.

ALL OF YOUR INTERACTIONS, YOUR CREDIT CARD SWIPES, WEB SEARCHES, LOCATIONS, LIKES, THEY'RE ALL COLLECTED INTO RETIME INTO A TRILLION DOLLAR SERVER.

BIG WORK FOR THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN AND BREXIT CAMPAIGN.

THEY STARTED USING INFORMATION WARFARE.

CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA CLAIMED TO HAVE 5,000 DATA POINTS ON EVERY AMERICAN VOTER.

I STARTED TRACKING DOWN ALL OF THESE CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA EX-EMPLOYEES.

AN OUTFIT YOU SHOULD BE CALLING BRITTNEY KEYSER.

BRITTNEY KEYSER, ONCE A KEY PLAYER CASTING HERSELF AS A WHISTLE-BLOWER.

THE REASON WHY GOOGLE, FACEBOOK ARE THE MOST POWERFUL COMPANIES IN THE WORLD IS BECAUSE LAST YEAR DATA SURPASSED OIL IN VALUE.

DATA IS THE MOST VALUABLE ASSET ON EARTH.

JOHAN, WHAT MAKES THIS DIFFERENT THAN HOW CAMPAIGNS HAVE WORKED FOREVER?

THEY'VE HAD WAYS TO PARGT PEOPLE, THEY'VE HAD NEGATIVE ADS, HOW'S THIS DIFFERENT?

IN FOLLOWING BRITTANY, SHE TALKED ABOUT WORKING IN THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN WHERE IT WAS THE VERY BEGINNINGS OF USING DATA AND THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN USED DATA BUT IN A VERY REMEDIAL WAY AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

THIS IS DIFFERENT THAT BECAUSE OF THE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES PEOPLE CAN BE TARGETED.

SO PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER VOTING FOR ISSUES, THEY ARE LISTENING TO ADS BASED ON WHAT THE ALGORITHM KNOWS ABOUT YOU.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP OF BRITTANY DESCRIBING HOW IT WORKS.

REMEMBER THOSE FACEBOOK QUIZZES THAT WE USED TO FORM PERSONALITY MODELS FOR ALL VOTERS IN THE U.S.? THE TRUTH IS, WE DIDN'T TARGET EVERY AMERICAN VOTER EQUALLY.

THE BULK OF OUR RESOURCES WENT INTO TARGETING THOSE WHOSE MINDS WE THOUGHT WE COULD CHANGE.

WE CALLED THEM THE PERSUADABLES.

THEY'RE EVERYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY, BUT THE PERSUADABLES WERE THE ONES THAT MATTERED IN SWING STATES LIKE MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA AND FLORIDA.

NOW EACH OF THESE STATES WERE BROKEN DOWN BY PRECINCT SO YOU CAN SAY THERE ARE 22,000 PERSUADABLE VOTERS IN THIS PRECINCT, AND IF YOU TARGET ENOUGH PERSUADABLE PEOPLE IN THE RIGHT PRECINCTS, THEN THOSE STATES WOULD TURN RED INSTEAD OF BLUE.

THE SAME FIRM, CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA, WAS ALSO WORKING ON THE LEAD CAMPAIGN.

WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

SO THROUGH THE TESTIMONIES OF BRITTNEY KAISER, WHO'S ONE OF THE CENTRAL PEOPLE IN THE FILM, WHEN WE MET HERSHEY'S IN THAILAND AND SHE HAS FLED FROM HER FORMER LIFE AS THE HEAD OF CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA WHICH HAD WORKED ON BREXIT AND THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, SHE FINDS EVIDENCE IN HIS FILES THAT CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA WORKED ON BREXIT AND SHE HAS EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT.

SHE PROVIDED EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT IN PARLIAMENT.

SHE ALSO IN THAT TESTIMONY EXPLAINED THAT THE INFORMATION SYSTEM -- THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES THAT WERE USED WERE CLASSIFIED AS WEAPONS GRADE SYSTEMS.

THEY WERE EXPORT CONTROLLED.

THAT IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, OH, WELL, EVERYBODY COULD SEND AN AD OR TWO.

NO, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TAKING MILITARY GRADE POLICIES AND APPLYING THEM ON A DOMESTIC --

IT'S SCI OPS.

IT'S THE KIND OF TOOLS, WEAPONS GRADE TOOLS THAT WERE USED TO TRY TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF POTENTIAL KIDS JOINING ISIS OR CHANGE POPULATIONS.

INSTEAD THOSE SAME TOOLS WERE USED ON THE BRITISH POPULATION AND THE AMERICAN POPULATION.

DID THEY CHEAT?

IS THIS CHEATING TO USE THESE TECHNOLOGICAL TOOLS TO GET YOUR SIDE TO WIN THE CAMPAIGN?

WHEN YOU WATCH THE FILM YOU'LL SEE THAT QUESTION IS ASKED IN PARLIAMENT.

CHRISTOPHER WILEY ANSWERS, YES, THIS IS CHEATING.

HE SAYS THAT -- WELL, THE NEXT QUESTION THAT'S ASKED OF HIM IS, WELL, DID IT REALLY WORK?

DID IT REALLY CAUSE BREXIT?

DID IT REALLY HELP THE CAMPAIGN?

DID IT REALLY AFFECT TRUMP BEING ELECTED?

AND HIS ANSWER WAS, WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE DOPING, YOU -- YOU DON'T SAY, WELL, WAS THE GUY -- YOU KNOW, WOULD THE GUY HAVE COME IN FIRST PLACE ANYWAY?

HE CHEATED AND SO HE SHOULD BE ELIMINATED.

YES, ACCORDING TO THE PEOPLE THAT WE FOLLOWED, THIS WAS CHEATING.

I THINK IT'S ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT DECIDING WHAT'S FOR SALE.

WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE ADVENT OF THIS NEW SURVEILLANCE CAPITALISM THAT WE'RE LIVING IN WHICH IS THE TERM THAT SUZANNE NA HAS COINED.

WE HAVE BECOME THE COMMODITY AS DAVID CAROL SAYS IN THE FILM AND WE -- AS COMMODITIES WE HAVE ALLOWED FOR ALL OF OUR RECORDABLE BEHAVIOR TO BE BOUGHT AND SOEMD AND COULD HE MOD DID I ADVERTISED.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT GOES INTO AN INTELLECTUALIZATION PROCESS, YOU HAVE ALLOWED COULD HE MOD DI -- COMMODITIZATION.

THE PROBLEM IS IT'S HAPPENING IN DARKNESS.

THERE'S NO TRANSPARENCY.

WE HAVE NO ABILITY TO KNOW WHERE THE ADS -- WHAT ADS PEOPLE SAW, WHO PAID FOR THEM.

AND WE'VE HAD NO UNDERSTANDING OF THAT.

FACEBOOK HAD THE ANSWERS, BUT UNDER THE WAY IN WHICH OUR DATA IS CURRENTLY REGULATED IN THIS COUNTRY, WE HAVE NO RIGHTS TO OUR DATA, RIGHT?

WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE ALLOWED FOR ALL OF OUR EMAILS TO BE READ.

WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY AND WE HAVE TO CAN OURSELVES, HOW MUCH OF OURSELVES IS FOR SALE AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THE INTEGRITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

THE U.K. GOVERNMENT SAID THEIR PUBLIC SYSTEM SAID IT IS NOT FIT FOR PUBLIC PURPOSE.

IT MEANS THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO WITHSTAND THE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES THAT HAVE LED TO THE TOOLS THAT HAVE BEEN USED BY CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA AND OTHER COMPANIES TO COME IN THE ELECTIONS.

I THINK THAT WHAT WE'VE -- WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING IS A MOMENT WHERE THE BALANCE OF POWER HAS SHIFTED.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT FACEBOOK, FOR EXAMPLE, FACEBOOK HAS OVER 2 BILLION CONSTITUENTS.

THAT IT HAS ACCESS TO SO MUCH OTHER DETAILED INFORMATION.

FACEBOOK IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTION.

FACEBOOK DOESN'T HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO ALL OF US, THE USERS.

FACEBOOK HAS NOT TAKEN ANY CRED DISOR RES DISOR -- CREDIT OR RESPONSIBILITY.

WHAT'S A WRECKAGE SITE WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT IT THAT WAY?

IT'S A TERM WE KIND OF MADE UP ACTUALLY.

BECAUSE WHEN WE STARTED MAKING THIS FILM, IT WAS INVISIBLE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR BRAIN AND ON THE COMPUTER BUT IT WASN'T THE MAKINGS OF A VISH ULT MOVIE.

WE STARTED TO LOOK FOR WRECKAGE SITES.

WE MINE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED AND WE FELT 2016 WAS A WRECKAGE SITE AND --

AND THE PURPOSE OF THE WRECKAGE SITES WAS TO SHOW THIS VULNERABILITY.

A HACK IS AN EXPLOITATION OF A VULNERABILITY.

I THINK THE HACK WE FOUND TO BE INTERESTING WAS THE VULNERABILITY IN OUR OWN MINDS AND HOW ARE -- AS MORAL CREATURES INCREASINGLY BEING SHAPED BY THE AMORAL ALGORITHMS.

LEAVE US WITH THE QUESTION OF WHO DICTATES THE ETHICS OF THESE ALGORITHMS.

I DON'T BELIEVE ANYBODY WAKES UP IN SILICON VALLEY AND SAYS, HEY, HOW AM I GOING TO WRECK DEMOCRACY TODAY.

JUST LIKE I DON'T THINK ANY OIL EXECUTIVE WAKES UP AND SAYS, HOW AM I GOING TO POLLUTE TODAY?

HOW WE SAW WHERE OIL WAS THE MAIN COMMODITY.

THERE WAS SOME IMPACTS.

AT THE SAME TIME WE ARE WITNESSING THE EXTXTERNALITIES.

WE'RE NOW AT THE RECKONING POINT.

THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE WATCHED THE FILM AND SAY, WHAT'S GOING ON WITH BRITTNEY?

IS SHE MORE CONTRITE ON CAMERA, IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE TO SEE THE FILM AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, SHE'S PLAYING THESE FILM MAKERS AND BY EXTENSION US.

THIS IS REALLY PART OF A SLICK REDEMPTION TOUR.

I KIND OF SEE HER HAVING REGRETS.

WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH HER MIND?

WHY DID SHE WANT TO SPEAK TO YOU?

HOW THAT EVOLUTION HAPPENED.

WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK OF HER WHEN WE MET HER, SIMILAR I THINK TO AN AUNSENS.

OUR GOAL WAS TO FOLLOW HER AND SEE HOW THIS JOURNEY UNFOLDED.

IT'S INCREDIBLE WHEN YOU MEET SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN IN THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN AND THEN WROTE THE FIRST CONTRACT FOR THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

PITCHED TRUMP.

PITCHED TRUMP.

HAD CERTAIN TIES TO JULIAN ASSANGE.

WAS INVESTIGATED BY MUELLER.

IN THAT WAY WE HAD A HUMAN BEING IN THIS INVISIBLE STORY THAT WAS GOING TO TAKE US INTO ROOMS THAT WE WOULD NEVER OTHERWISE GET ACCESS TO.

SO OUR JOB AS FILM MAKERS WAS TO FOLLOW THAT JOURNEY, AND SHE WAS -- SHE ALLOWED US TO -- THERE WAS NEVER A MOMENT WHEN SHE -- AND THAT'S SUCH A GIFT AS A FILMMAKER.

YEAH.

BUT IT'S -- YOU KNOW, SHE HAS LED A COMPLICATED LIFE AND WE -- WE WERE EXCITED TO JUMP WITH HER.

IT'S BEEN SITUATIONS AND MADE COMPLICATED DECISIONS.

I THINK IT'S NEVER BEEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN THESE TIMES, THESE POLARIZED TIMES, THAT WE HAVE STORIES THAT ALLOW US TO SEE HOW REDEMPTION IS POSSIBLE.

WHAT REDEMPTION LOOKS LIKE IS NOT -- IS IN OUR CONTEXT FOR THIS FILM IS ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE GET TOGETHER TO TACKLE A PROBLEM LIKE THIS.

HERE WE HAVE IN THIS FILM DAVID CAROL, A PROFESSOR, TO SAY I'M NOT WAITING FOR THE MUELLER REPORT TO FIND OUT WHAT DID OR DID NOT HAPPEN.

I'M GOING TO ASK QUESTIONS.

YEAH.

I'M GOING TO ASK, DO I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE MY OWN DATA AND HOW I WAS OR WASN'T TARGETED AND HE GOES ON THIS QUESTION AND ENDS UP SUING CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE CHARACTERS FROM DAVID CAROL.

I WAS TEACHING DIGITAL MEDIA DEVELOPING APPS SO I KNEW THAT THE DATA FROM OUR ONLINE ACTIVITY WASN'T JUST EVAPORATING.

AND AS I DUG DEEPER, I REALIZED THESE DIGITAL TRACES OF OURSELVES ARE BEING MINED INTO A TRILLION DOLLAR A YEAR INDUSTRY.

WE ARE NOW THE COMMODITY BUT WE WERE SO IN LOVE WITH THE GIFT OF THIS FREE CONNECTIVITY THAT NO ONE AGREED TO READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

SILICON VALLEY MIGHT JUST SAY THIS IS THE COST OF INNOVATION.

WHAT IS THE DANGER?

WHAT IS THE THREAT IN THAT BIGGER PICTURE WHEN OUR DATA IS TRANSACTED?

THAT'S A BAD DEAL.

WE MADE A BAD DEAL, RIGHT?

WE THINK THAT THIS STUFF IS FREE BUT YET -- AND, YES, WE'VE NEVER PAID ANYTHING TO FACEBOOK OR GOOGLE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY'RE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL COMPANIES THAT EXIST TODAY.

IT GOES BACK TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS FOR SALE AND IT GOES BACK TO THE QUESTION OF CONSENT AND WHAT ARE WE CONSENTING TO?

WE'RE JUST CLICKING THE USER AGREEMENTS.

WE DO THIS MANY TIMES A DAY IN ORDER TO MAKE OUR LIVES A LITTLE BIT EASIER.

IN A WAY WE'RE ALL COMPLICIT, BUT IN THAT WE ARE BECOMING THE COMMODITY.

WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES HOW MUCH OF OURSELVES SHOULD BE FOR SALE.

I THINK THERE'S TWO THINGS THAT TO ME HELP UNDERSTAND THIS CONVERSATION.

WE HAVE -- ONE IS THE WORD CONSENT, RIGHT?

WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN MORE DEBATED AND REDEFINED THAN IN TODAY'S SOCIETY THAN NOW, RIGHT?

AND CURRENTLY THE RELATIONSHIP WITH SILICON VALLEY WHEREBY YOU GIVE UP ALL YOUR PRIVACY, THE ADMISSION FEE TO THE CONNECTED WORLD IS A NONCONSENSUAL RELATIONSHIP.

IT IS NOT A RELATIONSHIP WHERE THE USER FULLY UNDERSTANDS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEM.

IT IS AN EXPLOITATIVE RELATIONSHIP.

THE SOONER WE UNDERSTAND THAT, THE BETTER.

THE ENGINEERS OF THE FUTURE WOULD NOT HAVE THE VALLEY WITHOUT THE OPEN SOCIETY AND WE HAVE TO ASK THEM, ARE THEY COMMITTED TO BUILDING A WORLD THAT ALLOWS FOR ETHICS AND INNOVATION TO WORK HAND IN HAND OR DO WE JUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO ONLY HAVE TECHNOLOGY AND FORGET ETHICS?

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT AS DIFFICULT IT IS, WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS SPECIFIC USE CASE BECAUSE IT'S ALL BEEN PUBLICIZED.

WHAT ABOUT THE NEXT ELECTION.

ABSOLUTELY.

2020 IS AROUND THE CORNER AND BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE WILL BE USING THIS TECHNOLOGY.

I THINK THE MOVIE IS ABOUT WHETHER WE CAN HAVE A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION EVER AGAIN WHICH I THINK IS IMPORTANT.

WHY THAT'S PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT TO US AND MAYBE WHY THE URGENCY IN THE FILM FEELS QUITE SHARP IS BECAUSE WE COME FROM EGYPT.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT DEMOCRACY IS NOT SOME GOD GIVEN RIGHT AS SOME PEOPLE MAY THINK IN THIS.

DEMOCRACY IS FRAGILE AND DEMOCRACY CAN BE TAKEN AS EASILY AS IT'S GIVEN.

AND WHEN THE CORE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IS UNDER ASSAULT, IT SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN ISSUE.

PROOF OF THAT, ACTUALLY, IS THAT PRIVACY IS NOT AN ISSUE.

PRIVACY HAS SUPPORT FROM REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT.

WE ARE IN A MOMENT OF NEW AWARENESS WHERE PEOPLE ARE ASKING MORE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS AND THERE'S BEGINNING TO BE AN ACCOUNTABILITY MOVEMENT AND I THINK WE AS CITIZENS HAVE TO NOW TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEMAND A NEW SOCIAL CONTRACT.

I THINK THAT SOCIAL CONTRACT IS NOT GOING TO BE BETWEEN US AND THE GOVERNMENT AS IT USED TO BE.

IN THIS ERA THAT WE LIVE IN IT WILL BE BETWEEN US, THE GOVERNMENT, THE TECH PLATFORMS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

> PERHAPS THE IDEA FOR DATA RIGHTS AS HUMAN RIGHTS COULDN'T COME AT A MORE IMPORTANT TIME.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.