September 17, 2019

> HELLO AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

EVERYBODY ALL ATWITTER ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING TO COME OUT OF THE EU, BELIEVE ME, WE'RE GOING TO GET IT DONE.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING ON THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER AS THE U.

SUPREME COURT GETS SET TO RULE ON HIS SUSPENSION OF PARLIAMENT.

BREXIT AND TENSIONS IN THE PERSIAN GULF.

> IT SEEMED LIKE AN INSTANT.

I WENT FROM FEELING INVINCIBLE TO POWERLESS.

THE SUPERMODEL CHRISTY TURLINGTON BURNS ON HOW HER OWN BABY'S DANGEROUS DELIVERY LED HER TO COMBAT MATERNAL MORTALITY AROUND THE WORLD.

IT WAS A MISTAKE TO GO TO CONGRESS?

IN THE SENSE THAT THE VOTES WEREN'T THERE.

PRESIDENT OBAMA'S U.N.

AMBASSADOR SAMANTHA POWER ON HER ADMINISTRATION'S FAILURE TO INTERVENE IN SYRIA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LON WHERE THE SUPREME COURT IS HEARING ARGUMENTS IN WHAT WILL SURELY BE ONE OF ITS MOST MOMENTUM DECISIONS OF THE TIMES, WHETHER BORIS JOHNSON BROKE THE LAW BY ASKING THE QUEEN TO SUSPEND PARLIAMENT AHEAD OF THE BREXIT DEADLINE NEXT MONTH.

THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER MET WITH EU LEADERS ON MONDAY WHO ARE STILL WAITING A DETAILED PROPOSAL FOR A DEAL FROM JOHNSON.

THE LUXEMBOURG PRIME MINISTER PULLED OFF A BIT OF POLITICAL THEATER HOLDING A PRESS CONFERENCE NEXT TO AN EMPTY PODIUM BECAUSE JOHNSON DIDN'T WANT TO SPEAK OUTSIDE NEAR NOISY PROTESTERS.

MY GUEST IS DAVID MILIBAND WHO SERVED AS BOTH BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY AND A LEADING MEMBER OF THE LABOR PARTY.

HE'S NOW PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE.

HE'S WELL PLACED TO DISCUSS THE OTHER GLOBAL CRISIS, THE FALLOUT FROM THE ATTACK ON SAUDI OIL INSTALLATIONS.

TEHRAN HAS DENIED ITS PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT ROUHANI SAYS THE ATTACKS, WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE, ARE ALL ABOUT DEVASTATING PROXY WAR IN YEMEN.

Translator: I LOOK AT IT MORE AS A QUESTION OF SECURITY AND STABILITY RATHER THAN OIL.

BUT THE ROOT CAUSE OF IT GOES BACK TO THE YEMEN PROBLEM.

THOSE THAT ATTACKED YEMEN AND CONDUCT DAILY BOMBARDMENTS AND HAVE LEVELED GREAT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AND TAKEN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEMENI LIVES AND SUPPORTED BY WAVES OF AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN ARMAMENTS, THEY MUST BE HELD TO ANSWER.

DAVID MILIBAND IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANKS, CHRISTIANE, GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

LET'S JUST TAKE WHERE THE PRESIDENT OF IRAN LEFT OFF, TALKING ABOUT THE BOMBINGS AND OBVIOUSLY HE WAS REFERRING TO SAUDI ARABIA AND THE COALITION WITH THE UNITED STATES AND OTHERS IN YEMEN.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS PRESIDENT OF THE IRC AND WITH SUCH AN OBVIOUS INTEREST IN WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE THERE, THE REFUGEES, JUST GIVE US A LAYOUT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

WHAT THIS WAR IS DOING TO THE PEOPLE THERE.

INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE HAS ABOUT 600 STAFF IN YEMEN, IN THE NORTHERN PART, WHICH IS CONTROLLED BY THE HOUTHI REBEL ALLIANCE, AND THE SOUTH, WHERE THERE ARE REMNANTS OF THE HADDI GOVERNMENT AND A RANGE OF OTHER FORCES WHO ARE IN CONTROL.

AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING THAT IS THE WAR STRATEGY THAT'S BEEN PROSECUTED BY THE SAUDI-LED COALITION OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS, FOUR TO FIVE YEARS, HAS COMPREHENSIVELY FAILED IN ITS PRINCIPAL WAR AIM, WHICH WAS TO DISLODGE THE HOUTHIS FROM SANAA, WHICH USED TO BE THE CAPITAL OF YEMEN.

AND THEN THERE'S A THIRD ELEMENT TO THIS.

IN THE SOUTH OF THE COUNTRY, THE SAUDI-LED COALITION IS BREAKING UP.

THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES HAVE ESSENTIALLY BACKED SOME SECESSIONIST FORCES.

YOU'RE SEEING FRAGMENTATION IN THE COUNTRY AND RADICALIZATION ALONGSIDE A DESPERATE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

24 MILLION PEOPLE ARE IN DESPERATE NEED OF HUMANITARIAN AID TO SURVIVE.

LEVELS OF MALNUTRITION AREUNPRECEDENTED.

CHOLERA THE LARGEST OUTBREAK LAST YEAR.

WE'RE THERE ON HUMANITARIAN GROUNDS, BUT THE COUNTRY IS IMPRISONED BY THIS POLITICAL MILITARY STALEMATE.

IT IS EXTRAORDINARY TO HEAR YOU EVEN SAY FOUR, NEARLY FIVE YEARS THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON.

THE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AT RISK AND THOSE WHO HAVE DIED, CHOLERA, ALL THE REST OF IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK AND WHAT IS YOUR VIEW AS TO WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE, WHY DO YOU THINK THE HOUTHIS CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ATTACK ON THE SAUDI INSTALLATIONS GIVEN WHAT MIGHT BE THE REPERCUSSIONS, THAT IT MIGHT HURT THEM?

WELL, I THINK THAT THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HOUTHIS AND THE IRANIANS IS OBVIOUSLY AT THE CENTER OF THE GEOPOLITICS OF THIS DISPUTE.

MY OWN VIEW IS THAT THE HOUTHIS HAVE LONGSTANDING ROOTS IN THE YEMENI SOCIETY.

THEY'RE A BRANCH OF SHIA, SO-CALLED ZAIDI BRANCH OF SHIA.

THEY DON'T HAVE HISTORIC LINKS WITH THE IRANIANS, BUT OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS OR SO, FIVE TO TEN YEARS, THOSE LINKS HAVE STRENGTHENED.

IN THE LAST FOUR TO FIVE YEARS, THE IRANIANS HAVE SEEN A CHEAP WAY TO TWEAK THE TAIL OF SAUDI ARABIA AND ITS WESTERN ALLIES BY SUPPORTING THE HOUTHIS IN THIS CIVIL WAR.

THE CLAIM OF RESPONSIBILITY IS OBVIOUSLY BEING LOOKED AT IN A RATHER SKEPTICAL WAY BECAUSE THE DRONES THAT SEEM TO HAVE BEEN USED GO WAY BEYOND ANYTHING THAT THE HOUTHIS HAVE EVER SHOWN BEFORE AND THERE ARE SOME SIGNIFICANT CLAIMS FROM THE U.S., AMONGST OTHERS, THAT THE IRANIANS WERE BEHIND IT.

HERE'S THE TERRIBLE TRUTH.

THERE'S A CRISIS OF DIPLOMACY NOT JUST IN YEMEN.

THE CRISIS OF DIPLOMACY APPLIES ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST AND SIGNIFICANTLY REVOLVES AROUND THE ROLE OF IRAN IN THE REGION.

THE U.S. TORE UP THE NUCLEAR AGREEMENT WHICH TRIED TO TAKE OFF THE TABLE THE ULTIMATE WEAPON THAT THE IRANIANS WERE FEARED TO BE CHASING.

AND OF COURSE BY BACKING THE IRANIANS INTO A CORNER, BY ALLOWING THE HARDLINERS IN TEHRAN TO SAY THAT THE REFORMERS WERE ALWAYS WRONG TO BELIEVE THAT THEY COULD EVER COME TO A DEAL WITH THE WEST, YOU'VE GOT A SITUATION WHERE IRAN FEELS IT'S GOT NOTHING TO LOSE.

AND SO I DON'T HAVE ANY BACKGROUND INTELLIGENCE ON THE PRECISE LOCATION OF THE ORIGIN OF THIS VERY DEVASTATING STRIKE ON THE SAUDI OIL FIELD, WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT THERE ARE MORE OPTIONS FOR THE IRANIANS THAN THERE ARE FOR THE AMERICANS OR THE SAUDIS AT THE MOMENT.

THAT'S THE CASE FOR TWO REASONS.

THE IRANIANS ARE PREPARED TO ESCALATE BECAUSE THEY'RE ALREADY BEING ECONOMICALLY STRANGLED.

AND SECONDLY, THEY'VE SHOWN OR IT'S BEEN SHOWN OVER THE LAST 72 HOURS THAT THE SAUDI DEFENSES OF THEIR ALL-IMPORTANT OIL INSTALLATIONS ARE VERY WEAK INDEED.

AND THAT LEAVES THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION IN A REAL FIX BECAUSE THEY CAN TALK ABOUT BEING LOCKED AND LOADED, AS THE PRESIDENT SAID IN HIS RATHER UNFORTUNATE PHRASE THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY.

BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY LACK ALLIES AND LACK STRATEGY FOR DEALING WITH SOME PRETTY INCOMPATIBLE QUESTIONS IN THE PERSIAN GULF.

SO THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, THAT ANALYSIS.

AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, AFTER THE LOCKED AND LOADED STATEMENT, THE VICE PRESIDENT'S CHIEF OF STAFF DENIED THAT IT NECESSARILY MEANT A MILITARY INTERVENTION.

BUT BE THAT AS IT MAY, AND AS YOU SAY THE ADMINISTRATION SEEMS TO HAVE, A, FEW ALLIES, AND B, FEW OPTIONS IN DEALING WITH IRAN, NONETHELESS, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT YEMEN AND ITS PEOPLE COULD BE DRAGGED FURTHER INTO THIS MORASS.

HERE'S WHAT THE U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR YEMEN SAID ABOUT THIS.

AT A MINIMUM, THIS KIND OF ACTION CARRIES THE RISK OF DRAGGING YEMEN INTO A REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION.

BECAUSE OF ONE THING WE CAN BE CERTAIN, AND THAT IS THIS EXTREMELY SERIOUS INCIDENT MAKES THE CHANCES OF A REGIONAL CONFLICT THAT MUCH HIGHER AND OF A RAPPROCHEMENT THAT MUCH LOWER.

AND WITH YEMEN IN SOME WAY OR OTHER LINKED, NONE OF THAT, NONE OF THAT IS GOOD FOR YEMEN.

SO THERE HE IS DELINEATING WHAT'S NOT GOOD FOR YEMEN.

WE KNOW THAT SYRIA IS STILL IN THE MIDST OF A WAR.

ASSAD IS STILL TRYING TO NEUTRALIZE, ANNIHILATE, THE REMNANTS OF THE OPPOSITION.

AND THERE IS THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICT AND MORE WAR IN THE REGION.

YOU, AS IRC, HAVE PUT OUT A RATHER CALAMITOUS OR ENVISIONING THE CATASTROPHE THAT'S UNFOLDING IN SOME OF THE REFUGEE CAMPS INSIDE SYRIA.

WE HAD A REPORT FROM THE GROUND FROM THERE JUST LAST WEEK, PARTICULARLY WITH 70,000 PEOPLE, MANY WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

WHAT IS YOUR REPORT SAYING ABOUT THAT?

LOOK, MARTIN GRIFFITH, JUST TO FINISH ON THAT POINT, THE U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY, OUTSTANDING DIPLOMAT, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE I WOULD HAVE WITH HIM IS HE SAYS YEMEN IS THREATENED BY BEING ENGULFED WITH REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION.

I WOULD SAY IT ALREADY IS ENGULFED.

THAT'S WHAT 24 MILLION PEOPLE IN HUMANITARIAN NEED MEANS.

AND THE PURSUIT OF THE WAR STRATEGY BY THE SAUDI-LED COALITION IS BEING JUSTIFIED ON THE GROUNDS THAT THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO COMPROMISE WITH AN IRANIAN-BACKED SIDE.

SO YEMEN IS ALREADY THE CRUCIBLE FOR THIS.

THE REPORT THAT WE'VE PUT OUT ON OUR HAUL IS REALLY DEVASTATING READING.

IT SHOWS THAT OVER 300 CHILDREN HAVE DIED IN THE AL HALL CAMP.

THIS IS A PLACE YOU'RE RIGHT TO SAY 70,000 PEOPLE ARE THERE, 7,000 OF THEM ARE SUSPECTED ISIS FOREIGN FIGHTERS.

AND THEY ARE IN A SECLUDED PART OF THE CAMP WHERE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET IN TO DELIVER HUMANITARIAN AID.

WE ARE THERE, BUT WE'RE LITERALLY SEEING CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 5, BABIES, DYING IN THEIR TENTS OF MALNUTRITIONAL-RELATED DISEASES BEFORE THEY EVEN GET TO THE HEALTH CENTERS THAT EXIST IN THE CAMP.

SO THERE IS A REAL TRAGEDY OF ENORMOUS PROPORTIONS BECAUSE THESE ARE THE INNOCENT VICTIMS OF THE WAR.

THESE ARE CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 5 WHO ARE LITERALLY AT THE END OF THEIR LIVES, ON THE EDGE OF DEATH.

AND OUR REPORT SHOWS THAT THE RATE OF DEATH HAS MORE THAN DOUBLED SINCE MARCH THIS YEAR.

THERE ARE AROUND 150 DEATHS IN THE RUN-UP TO MARCH.

THE RATE OF DEATH HAS MORE THAN DOUBLED.

AND THAT SPEAKS TO THE DESPERATE CONDITIONS THAT EXIST THERE, BUT IT ALSO SPEAKS TO THIS DIPLOMATIC STAYS SISTER ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE.

SOME COUNTRIES HAVE VOLUNTEERED TO TAKE THEM BACK TO FACE JUSTICE, BUT TOO MANY ARE REFUSING TO DO SO.

THAT LEAVES THE INNOCENT VICTIMS, AS WELL AS THE POTENTIALLY GUILTY ONES, STUCK.

TO PIVOT TO SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING HERE IN GREAT BRITAIN, WHICH IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BREXIT MESS, YOU'RE A FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER, FOREIGN SECRETARY.

BRITAIN USED TO ACTUALLY TAKE VERY INTERVENTIONIST ACTIONS IN DIPLOMACY AND HUMANITARIAN CARE AND TRYING TO SOLVE SOME OF THESE GREAT GLOBAL PROBLEMS.

AND YET BREXIT SEEMS TO BE TAKING ALL THE OXYGEN OUT OF ALL OF THOSE EFFORTS.

HAVING SAID THAT, I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE ON WHAT I SAID, WHICH WAS THE SUPREME COURT HERE IS ABOUT TO RULE THIS WEEK ON WHETHER THE PRIME MINISTER BROKE THE LAW IN SUSPENDING PARLIAMENT, IN GETTING THE QUEEN TO AGREE TO THAT.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THAT?

YOU'RE RIGHT TO SAY THAT BREXIT HAS SUCKED THE LIFE OUT OF BRITISH FOREIGN POLICY OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

AND THREATENS TO DO SO FOR MANY YEARS TO COME.

MY VIEW IS THAT BORIS JOHNSON, THE PRIME MINISTER, IS ON THE RUN FROM PARLIAMENT.

HE'S ON THE RUN BECAUSE HE KNOWS HE DOESN'T HAVE A MAJORITY FOR THE POLICY THAT HE IS PURSUING.

THE POLICY IS THAT BRITAIN WILL LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION ON THE 31st OF OCTOBER WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S A DEAL.

HE'S READY TO PULL US OUT WITHOUT A DEAL.

AND NOT A SINGLE EXPERT WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE'S TIME BETWEEN THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL ON THE 17th, 18th OF OCTOBER AND THE END OF OCTOBER TO GET THROUGH THE NECESSARY LEGISLATION.

SO THAT'S WHY HE'S ON THE RUN, AND THAT'S WHY HE IS FLOUTING CONSTITUTIONAL AND POLITICAL NORMS IN SUCH A CAVALIER WAY.

IT GRIEVES ME TO SEE THE STATE OF BRITISH POLITICS AT THE MOMENT.

BUT THE COUNTRY HAS TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL CHOICES THAT ARE POSED BY THE BREXIT REFERENDUM, NOT LEAST TO THE LEGITIMACY OF PARLIAMENT.

OBVIOUSLY BRITAIN IS A PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY.

PITTED AGAINST THAT IS THE RESULT OF A REFERENDUM.

TAKEN THREE YEARS AGO.

IT REALLY WORRIES ME THAT THE IDEA OF A NO-DEAL BREXIT, NO RELATIONS WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION AT ALL AFTER OCTOBER THE 31st, SHOULD HAVE BEEN NORMALIZED IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE PURSUIT OF THE GOAL SET OUT THREE YEARS AGO.

AND AS I ALSO SAID IN THE INTRODUCTION, THE PRIME MINISTER, BORIS JOHNSON, WENT TO EUROPE, TO THE SEAT OF EUROPE IN BRUSSELS, FIRST TIME MEETING WITH THE HEAD OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, AND BY ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, AFTERWARDS WE WERE TOLD THERE WERE NO NEW BRITISH PROPOSALS PUT FORTH TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE SOME KIND OF A NEW OR AMENDED DEAL.

SO IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE HURTLING TOWARDS A NO DEAL.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING.

BORIS JOHNSON COMPARED HIMSELF TO THE HULK AND SAID THAT HE'LL GET OUT OF THIS KNOT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND GET OUT OF THE EU ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

SO THE QUESTION THEN IS GIVEN WHAT PARLIAMENT HAS DONE BY A MAJORITY, SAYING THAT WE CANNOT HAVE A NO-DEAL BREXIT, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE PRIME MINISTER MIGHT KIND OF BREAK THE LAW AND HAVE A NO-DEAL BREXIT ANYWAY?

THAT'S A HUGE POINT OF DISCUSSION AND DEBATE HERE IN THE UK.

I FIND IT VERY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT A BRITISH PRIME MINISTER WOULD DISOBEY THE LAW.

AND YOUR VIEWERS AROUND THE WORLD, I THINK, WOULD FIND IT EXTRAORDINARY.

A COUNTRY RENOWNED FOR ITS PRAGMATISM, FOR ITS STABILITY, SHOULD BE TAKING LEAVE OF ITS SENSES, NEVER MIND TAKING LEAVE OF ITS LEGAL HISTORY IN THE WAY THAT YOU DESCRIBE.

THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THERE ARE PARLIAMENTARIANS WILLING TO STAND UP FOR THE RULE OF LAW.

AND THEY WILL TAKE THIS TO THE ULTIMATE CONCLUSION, WHICH EVENTUALLY IS TO THREATEN THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

THE GOVERNMENT NOW DOES NOT HAVE A MAJORITY BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT'S TRIED TO PURGE ITS ENEMIES WITHIN THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY.

AND THE IMPORTANT POINT IS PARLIAMENT CONTINUES TO STAND UP FOR ITS RIGHTS.

BECAUSE WHEN THE ROLE OF MPs IS SUBJUGATED, THEN DEMOCRACY ITSELF IS AT RISK.

THAT'S WHY I THINK THE PASSIONS ARE SO HIGH AND WHY THE ATTENTION TO THE SUPREME COURT, JUDGMENT OF THE SUPREME COURT CASE THAT YOU MENTIONED, IS SO IMPORTANT.

THERE IS A WAY OUT OF THIS.

BUT IT INVOLVES ALL SIDES ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IN THE END, THE PEOPLE HAVE TO BE THE ARBITERS OF THIS.

WHATEVER FINAL DEAL IS DONE, INCLUDING NO DEAL, IS PUT TO THE BRITISH PEOPLE IN A FINAL JUDGMENT ABOUT HOW TO AT LEAST END THIS STAGE OF THE BREXIT SAGA.

VERY QUICKLY, WE'VE ONLY GOT ABOUT 45 SECONDS LEFT.

YOU'VE SEEN DAVID CAMERON'S BOOK.

HE HAS SAID HE'S KEY PRESSED AND UPSET ABOUT THIS RESULT AND THAT HE ACCUSED BORIS JOHNSON AND MICHAEL GOEB, FORMER MINISTER, OF BEING ECONOMICAL WITH THE TRUTH, TRUTH TWISTING, HE SAID.

ARE YOU GLAD HE'S SAYING THAT NOW?

YES, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT HE SPEAKS OUT.

MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT IT WAS HIS DECISION TO LAUNCH THE REFERENDUM THAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT SOMEONE FROM THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY IS ABLE TO SPEAK UP IN THIS WAY, ESPECIALLY SOMEONE WITH HIS EXPERIENCE AND BACKGROUND.

I'M OBVIOUSLY SORRY HE'S DEPRESSED.

I CAN COMMEND TO HIM WORK IN AN INTERNATIONAL NGO OF A WAY OF AT LEAST MITIGATING THE FRUSTRATION EX-POLITICIANS FEEL OF THE SENSE OF IMPOTENCE THAT COMES FROM LEAVING OFFICE.

THERE IS A WORLD OUTSIDE POLITICS.

THERE'S A WHOLE OTHER LAYER TO THAT LAST ANSWER.

LAFD MILIBAND, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

> WE TURN TO SOMEONE WHO'S USING HER LIFE IN THE SPOTLIGHT TO ILLUMINATE A DARK ISSUE.

SHE IS CHRISTY TURLINGTON BURNS, ONE OF THE WORLD'S ORIGINAL SUPERMODELS.

SHE'S WALKS THOUSANDS OF RUNWAYS AND APPEARED ON COUNTLESS MAGAZINE COVERS INCLUDING MOST RECENTLY BRITISH 'VOGUE'S' SEPTEMBER ISSUE, ITS MOST IMPORTANT OF THE YEAR.

SHE EXPLAINED IN A DOCUMENTARY 'NO WOMAN, NO CRY.'

THE LABOR ITSELF WAS INTENSE.

BUT PRETTY MUCH WENT THE WAY I IMAGINED IT WOULD GO.

THEN IN WHAT SEEMED LIKE AN INSTANT, I WENT FROM FEELING INVINCIBLE TO POWERLESS.

THE MIDWIFE CALLED FOR BACKUP.

THEY TOOK MY BABY AWAY.

AND I BEGAN TO HEMORRHAGE.

I'LL NEVER FORGET THE FEAR AND PANIC OF THAT MOMENT.

FORTUNATELY I GOT THROUGH IT.

BUT TOO MANY WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD DON'T.

AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO URGENT.

WE SAT DOWN IN NEW YORK TO TALK ABOUT HER CAMPAIGN 'EVERY MOTHER COUNTS.'

CHRISTY TURLINGTON BURNS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU.

WE HAVE JUST SEEN A REALLY DRAMATIC PIECE IN MY INTRODUCTION TO YOU OF A VERY INTIMATE SCENE IN WHICH YOU ARE IN DISTRESS IN LABOR.

YOU'VE JUST GIVEN BIRTH TO YOUR CHILD.

AND THEN IT GETS VERY DANGEROUS FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU HEMORRHAGE.

REMIND US OF WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU GAVE BIRTH TO YOUR DAUGHTER, GRACE.

YES, SO AFTER A VERY -- A VERY GOOD PREGNANCY, NO COMPLICATIONS AT ALL, LOTS OF BIRTH OPTIONS, A GREAT TEAM TAKING CARE OF ME, A SUPPORTIVE PARTNER, THE UNEXPECTED HAPPENED.

I DELIVERED GRACE.

I DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS GOING TO BE A GIRL, SO THE MOST EXCITING THING WAS THAT I WAS MEETING MY DAUGHTER FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND THEN AFTER HAVING, YOU KNOW, A FEW MINUTES, REALLY, BONDING WITH HER, SHE LATCHED ON TO BREAST FEED, EVERYTHING WAS SORT OF GOING WELL, AS IT SHOULD BE.

AND I WAS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF EWE FOREIIC.

I COULD SORT OF FEEL THE -- THE FEELING IN THE ROOM JUST CHANGED.

THE NURSES AND THE MIDWIFE GOT A LITTLE BIT NERVOUS.

AND WHAT I LATER LEARNED WAS THAT AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE PLACENTA DOESN'T EXPEL, IT BECOMES QUITE TOXIC INSIDE THE BODY.

AND SO IT NEEDED TO BE EXTRACTED.

AND BECAUSE I HAD AN UNMEDICATED, NATURAL DELIVERY THAT MEANT WITHOUT ANY PAIN MEDICATION OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

WHAT ABOUT IT LED YOU TO YOUR ACTIVISM?

BECAUSE YOU COULD HAVE THOUGHT, WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WAS MY BAD LUCK.

YOU KNOW, IT TOOK A LITTLE WHILE TO PROCESS.

I WOULD -- I THINK IN THOSE FIRST FEW DAYS I WAS SHARING MY STORY WITH PEOPLE WHO WOULD COME TO VISIT ME, I LEARNED OTHER PEOPLE HAD HAD A SIMILAR COMPLICATION OR OTHER COMPLICATIONS THAT I WAS NOT AWARE OF IN MY PREGNANCY.

BUT THEN, I DON'T KNOW, A YEAR OR SO LATER WHEN I WAS PREGNANT WITH MY SON, I WAS ABLE TO TRAVEL TO EL SALVADOR, WHICH IS WHERE MY MOM WAS BORN, WHERE I SPENT TIME IN MY YOUTH.

VISITING AN NGO AND SOME PROGRAMS THERE.

THAT'S WHERE I HAD THE AH-HA MOMENT.

I WAS ABOUT 6 MONTHS PREGNANT.

MY MOTHER'S COUNTRY.

AND WE'RE IN VERY POOR COMMUNITIES, HOURS AWAY FROM THE CAPITAL CITY.

AND IN ONE PARTICULAR SITE VISIT WHERE WE WERE VISITING A WATER PROJECT, A LOT WOMEN HAD COME EITHER WITH SMALL CHILDREN ON THEIR BACKS OR PREGNANT.

AND THAT'S WHERE I KIND OF PUT MY FEET IN THEIR SHOES.

AND I THOUGHT, HAD I HAD THE DELIVERY WITH MY DAUGHTER IN THIS COMMUNITY WHERE WOMEN HAD TO WALK MILES TO GET TO CLEAN WATER, WHERE ALL THE HOMES WERE TIN ROOFED, WHERE THERE WAS NO ELECTRICITY, WHERE THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED, WHERE YOU'RE TWO HOURS AWAY FROM A HOSPITAL -- I LEARNED THAT A WOMAN COULD BLEED OUT WITH THE SAME DELIBERATION THAT I HAD IF YOU DON'T GET TO EMERGENCY OBSTETRIC CARE WITHIN TWO HOURS, MAYBE SOONER.

AND I WAS STUNNED TO LEARNED, I ASSUME YOU WERE, IN TERMS OF MATERNAL MORTALITY, THE U.S. IS THE ONLY WESTERN COUNTRY WHERE THIS IS RISING.

EXACTLY.

SO IN 2003, WHEN I DELIVERED MY DAUGHTER, THE GLOBAL ESTIMATE WAS 530,000 GIRLS AND WOMEN WERE ESTIMATED TO DIE EVERY YEAR, AND THOSE NUMBERS HADN'T BUNNED IN DECADES.

IT WAS ONLY WHEN I WAS TRAVELING IN EL SALVADOR THAT I LEARNED WHERE THE U.S. WAS.

AND I WAS SHOCKED TO LEARN THE U.S. WAS RANKED 41st AT THAT TIME.

I LEARNED OF ALL DEVELOPED COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, WE'RE THE WORST.

WE'RE ONE OF 13 COUNTRIES WITH A RISING MORTALITY RATE AND THAT WAS COMPLETELY SHOCKING.

IN NEW YORK I LEARNED WE WERE POORLY RANKED.

IN FACT, NEW YORK CITY, AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN ARE 12 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE THAN CAUCASIAN WOMEN.

AND THAT'S THREE TO FOUR TIMES MORE THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE, WHICH IS SHOCKING.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES?

WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES THIS FIGURE KEEP RISING?

IT'S INTERESTING.

BECAUSE THE U.S. IS COMPLEX FOR MANY REASONS.

IT COULD BE 50 COUNTRIES VERSUS 50 STATES.

WHEN I WAS GOING THROUGH THE EXPLORATION OF FIGURING OUT HOW I WOULD BE A GOOD ADVOCATE, I WENT BACK TO SCHOOL TO WORK ON A MASTER'S IN PUBLIC HEALTH AT COLUMBIA.

THEN I STARTED A DOCUMENTARY FILM.

THAT FILM, 'NO WOMAN, NO CRY,' WAS KIND OF A THESE SISTER IN A WAY OF EXPLORING THE BARRIERS AND CHALLENGES IN A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES.

THE U.S. WAS PART OF THAT EXPLORATION PROCESS.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF REASONS WHY WE'RE DOING SO POORLY.

FOR ONE, WE HAVE A LOT OF CHRONIC HEALTH CONDITIONS THAT ARE ON THE RISE, SUCH AS DIABETES AND OBESITY.

THAT IMPACTS THE OUTCOMES OF PREGNANCY.

NOT ONLY FOR BABIES, BUT FOR MOTHERS.

THERE'S ALSO RACIAL DISPARITIES THAT HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

BUT NOW WE'RE REALLY FOCUSING ON WHAT'S DRIVING THAT.

AND WHAT WE'RE LEARNING FROM TALKING TO WOMEN AND HEARING MORE STORIES FROM WOMEN WHO EXPERIENCE NEAR MISSES, WHICH IS VERY, VERY COMMON, IF WOMEN DON'T DIE THERE ARE 20 TO 30 OTHERS WHO WILL SUFFER LIFE-LONG DISABILITIES RELATED TO CHILDBIRTH AND PREGNANCY.

AND WE'RE HEARING FROM WOMEN THAT THEY'RE NOT LISTENED TO.

OR THEY'RE DISREGARDED.

IN HOSPITAL SETTINGS.

THE STATS ARE CRAZY.

SOME DOCTORS CAN ENTER THE SPECIALTY OF MATERNAL FETAL MEDICINE, EVEN COMPLETE TRAINING, WITHOUT SPENDING ANY TIME IN THE LABOR DELIVERY UNIT.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

SERENA WILLIAMS, WHO'S OBVIOUSLY A MAJOR STAR, WHO HAD HER FIRST BABY GIRL AND NEARLY DIED, SHE ALSO WROTE ABOUT IT, AND FOCUSED ON WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS THE RACIAL DISPARITY.

WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT, WHAT DOES YOUR ORGANIZATION DO?

WELL, WE'VE BEEN REALLY TRYING TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC ABOUT THIS AS AN ISSUE GENERALLY.

AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, AT THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

BUT WE'VE ALSO TRIED TO REALLY INVEST IN HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS, MID-LEVEL PROVIDERS.

NOT EVERY PREGNANCY REQUIRES A PHYSICIAN REWIDE RECEIVER PARTNER WITH A LOT OF COMMUNITY-LED ORGANIZATIONS.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR WOMEN WHO ARE MOST VULNERABLE TO SEE THEMSELVES AND THE PROVIDERS THAT PROVIDE CARE FOR THEM.

AND SO IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO BE GETTING CARE PRONATALLY AS WELL AS THROUGHOUT THEIR PREGNANCIES AND POSTPARTUM.

WE TRY TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT FAMILY PLANNING AND FAMILY SPACING, WHICH IS CONTROVERSIAL.

BUT IT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO KEEP A MOTHER SAFE THROUGHOUT THE REST OF HER REPRODUCTIVE YEARS.

I GUESS IT MUST BE GRATIFYING TO YOU TO SEE, AND I THINK IT'S FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT ALL THE MAJOR DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES ARE PUTTING THIS ISSUE PRETTY HEFTILY ON THEIR AGENDA.

ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE WAY THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES ARE PLEDGING TO COMBAT THIS?

I AM.

I MEAN, TEN YEARS AGO WHEN I STARTED EVERY MOTHER COUNTS, THERE WERE A FEW BILLS THAT WERE INTRODUCED AND THEY JUST PASSED AT THE END OF 2018.

TEN YEARS?

TEN YEARS.

I SPENT AN EARLY PART OF THIS YEAR, ACTUALLY IN MAY, AROUND MOTHER'S DAY, ON THE HILL TALKING TO MEMBERS ON BOTH SIDES.

AND A LOT OF THEM HAD THE ATTITUDE OF, WELL, WE PASSED THESE OTHER TWO THINGS, WHY DO WE NEED MORE?

IF THERE ARE DEMOCRATS INTRODUCING THESE BILLS, WE DON'T WANT TO BE ON THEIR SIDE SO WE CAN'T POSSIBLY.

THAT'S FRUSTRATING.

THE WAY THAT IT WORKS AT THE GOVERNMENT LEVEL.

YOUR FILM, YOU TALKED ABOUT NO WOMAN, NO CRY.

AND THERE ARE SCENES FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE YOU WERE INVESTIGATING THIS.

WE'RE GOING TO PLAY A CLIP.

THIS IS FROM TANZANIA.

IT'S ALL ABOUT A WOMAN IN DISTRESS TRYING TO GET TO SOMEWHERE SAFE, A HOSPITAL, TO HAVE HER BABY.

JANET'S LABOR IS NOT PROGRESSING.

AND THE THREAT OF DEATH FOR BOTH BABY AND MOTHER IS PALPABLE.

WITH NO MONEY TO PAY FOR FOOD OR TRANSPORT, THE NURSES ASK US TO HELP.

WE ARRANGE FOR A VAN TO TAKE JANET TO THE NEAREST HOSPITAL, AN HOUR AWAY.

DID THAT SHOCK YOU, THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAD TO INTERVENE?

THERE WAS NOBODY ELSE BUT YOUR TEAM TO ACTUALLY PAY FOR A VEHICLE TO TAKE THIS WOMAN TO SOMEWHERE SAFE, A CLINIC, TO HAVE HER BABY.

I THINK IF WE HADN'T BEEN THERE, PROBABLY THE NURSES WOULD HAVE COME TOGETHER AND FOUND SOME WAY TO PULL TOGETHER FUNDS.

AND THEY DO DO THAT FROM TIME TO TIME.

IT'S VERY -- I'M NOT A TRADITIONAL FILMMAKER AND THAT WAS MY FIRST FILM, BUT WE DID BREAK THAT FOURTH WALL.

THE LAST THING THAT I WANTED TO DO WAS SIT BY AND WATCH, IF WE COULD HELP.

AT THAT TIME I REALLY HADN'T TAKEN IT IN THAT EVEN A HOSPITAL THAT'S 45 KILOMETERS AWAY IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH.

AND JANET HAPPENED TO LIVE FAR FROM THE MAIN ROAD.

SO --

IT WAS ABOUT TWO HOURS AWAY BY VEHICLE.

EXACTLY.

IN THE END, I THINK SOME OF THAT VEHICLE RIDE, IT'S A VERY BUMPY RIDE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WATCH IT AND THEY GRIP THEIR SEATS.

I THINK SOME OF THAT HELPED TO INDUCE THE LABOR.

I THINK IT WAS ACTUALLY HELPFUL.

BUT IT HAD TO BE EXCRUCIATINGLY PAINFUL.

I DROVE FROM DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN TO MIDTOWN MANHATTAN WHILE IN LABOR.

AND I REMEMBER LEANING OVER THE BACK SEAT OF THE CAR AND ASKING MY HUSBAND HOW MUCH FURTHER, AND HE WAS LYING TO ME SAYING, FIVE MORE MINUTES.

BUT I COULD SEE AS WE WERE PASSING THE DIFFERENT STREETS AND I KNEW HOW FAR.

THAT WAS A 15-MINUTE RIDE.

SO TO IMAGINE SOMEONE WHO IS IN THE STATE THAT JANET WAS FOR AN HOUR?

AND THAT'S NOT EVEN AN AVERAGE DISTANCE A WOMAN WILL HAVE TO TRAVEL.

IT IS REALLY DIRE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

THEN THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES THAT AFFECT WOMEN AS WELL.

CUSTOMS, THE IDEA OF SHAME, THE IDEA OF WHAT YOU CAN SAY IN PUBLIC, WHAT KIND OF HELP CAN YOU ASK FOR IN PUBLIC.

YOU CAME ACROSS THAT IN BANGLADESH.

WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS CLIP.

WITH HER HUSBAND AWAY IN THE COUNTRYSIDE WORKING, MONICA HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO DEAL WITH HER PREGNANCY ON HER OWN.

HOW MUCH OF THAT DID YOU FIND?

WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THAT?

BANGLADESH WAS PROBABLY THE FIRST EXAMPLE WHERE I TOOK IN THE REALITY THAT WOMEN WOULDN'T NECESSARILY FEEL COMFORTABLE ARTICULATING HOW THEY FEEL OR TO EXPRESS WHAT THEY WANT FOR THEMSELVES.

IN BANGLADESH I THINK IT WAS A PRETTY TYPICAL PICTURE OF THE LACK OF DECISION-MAKING THAT SO MANY WOMEN HAVE IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD.

MONICA, FOR EXAMPLE, HER HUSBAND WORKS FAR AWAY.

SHE'S AT HOME WITH A SMALL CHILD.

HER SISTER, I BELIEVE, WAS THE PERSON WHO WAS CLOSEST AND WHO HAD THE DECISION-MAKING POWER IN HER FAMILY DYNAMIC DURING THE TIME WE WERE WITH HER.

HAD WE NOT TRAVELED WITH HER TO THE HOSPITAL, SEEN THE WAY THE DOCTORS TREATED HER THERE, EVEN WITH A CREW AND EVEN WITH PEOPLE, IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW SHE WAS TREATED AND DISREGARDED.

TELL ME HOW.

IN THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM WHERE WE MET MONICA, SHE HAD A SKILLED BIRTH ATTENDANT, A PATIENT ADVOCATE WHO TRAVELED WITH HER TO HELP NAVIGATE THE HOSPITAL.

THE DOCTOR TALKED TO THE NAVIGATOR, NOT TO MONICA.

AND WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT HER, HE WAS SO DISMISSIVE.

SHE COULD UNDERSTAND EVERY WORD THAT HE WAS SAYING, SHE DIDN'T SPEAK A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.

IT WAS SO DISMISSIVE AND SO JUDGMENTAL.

WHEN WE LEFT THAT APPOINTMENT I REMEMBER THINKING, THERE'S NO WAY SHE'S GOING TO GO BACK, WHY WOULD SHE GO BACK?

WHY WOULD SHE RISK TRAVELING IN A RICKSHAW FOR HALF AN HOUR TO GET TO A HOSPITAL WHERE A DOCTOR IS GOING TO DIMINISH HER AND TREAT HER POORLY?

AND THAT HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT HAPPENS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

BUT I REALLY SAW IT SPELLED OUT THERE.

AND THE IMPACT OF THAT.

SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WOMEN ARE FEARFUL OF THE WAY THEY'RE GOING TO BE TREATED OR THE DISCRIMINATION THEY MIGHT FACE IN AN INSTITUTION, THEY JUST STOP TRUSTING.

THEY THINK, I'LL JUST TAKE MY RISKS AND I'LL STAY HOME.

AND SOMETIMES THEY MIGHT NEED CARE AND IT MIGHT BE TOO LATE.

AND OTHER TIMES IT MIGHT WORK OUT PERFECTLY FINE.

BUT THEY REALLY DO LEAVE IT UP TO FATE.

LET'S REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AND THE GRAVITY OF THIS, THAT IN A COUNTRY LIKE THIS ONE, MATERNAL MORTALITY IS RISING.

THE ONLY MACE IN THE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES, WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU ARE PARTLY FROM EL SALVADOR, YOUR MOTHER IS EL SALVADORAN.

YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING TO PEOPLE COMING FROM EL SALVADOR, SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICA, PREGNANT WOMEN, WOMEN SEPARATED FROM THEIR CHILDREN AT THE BORDER.

HOW DO YOU FEEL WHEN YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING TO PEOPLE WHO OBVIOUSLY ARE -- YOU CAME FROM THAT CULTURE.

THE THING THAT WORRIES ME THE MOST IS HOW SO MANY AMERICANS ARE DISCONNECTED FROM THE HISTORY, OUR HISTORY, OUR HAND IN CREATING COUNTRIES THAT THE PEOPLE FROM THOSE COUNTRIES WANT TO LEAVE.

MY GRANDFATHER LEFT IN THE '40s.

HE LEFT BEFORE THEIR WAR AND BEFORE THINGS WERE IN THE STATE THEY'RE CURRENTLY IN.

AND HE LEFT IN SOME WAYS THROUGH POLITICAL ASYLUM.

BUT IT WAS A TIME WHEN WE WEREN'T CLOSING OUR DOORS AND WE WEREN'T SLAMMING THE DOOR IN PEOPLE'S FACES.

AND SO MY MOM WAS SEPARATED FROM HER DAD FOR A FEW YEARS UNTIL THE REST OF THE FAMILY MOVED OVER.

SHE DIDN'T RECOGNIZE HER FATHER WHEN SHE ARRIVED IN LOS ANGELES.

SHE WAS 8 YEARS OLD.

SO I HAVE MY MOM'S STORY THAT'S SO VISCERAL FOR ME.

IF I SAW ANY CHILD OF ANY AGE, I WOULD FEEL STRONGLY.

BUT I THINK BECAUSE I HAVE THAT STORY AND THAT CONNECTION, IT REALLY BREAKS MY HEART.

I WILL ASK YOU, YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT IT AND IT'S INTERESTING IN THIS DIVISIVE TIME.

YOU COME FROM EL SALVADOR, YOUR MOTHER DOES.

AND YOU ENTERED THE MODELING FIELD HERE.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEING EL SALVADORAN, ENTERING THAT BUSINESS?

DID YOU EVER FEEL LIKE AN OUTSIDER?

WAS IT AN ADVANTAGE?

NO, I FOUND IT TO BE AN ADVANTAGE ALWAYS TO HAVE COME FROM SOMEPLACE THAT EITHER PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW OF -- EVERYBODY GETS THEM CONFUSED, ECUADOR, EL SALVADOR.

PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE IT IS.

IF PEOPLE DID KNOW WHAT EL SALVADOR WAS, THEY ASSOCIATED IT TO WAR.

GUERILLA WARFARE.

IT HAD NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS.

SO I KIND OF LIKED REVEALING -- I HAD A LOOK THAT PEOPLE COULDN'T REALLY FIT, WHERE WAY IS FROM, WHAT WAS THE MIX THAT I WAS?

I KIND OF LIKED THAT.

WHEN I WOULD BE ABLE TO REVEAL IT WAS EL SALVADOR, IT WAS A SLIGHTLY EDGY PLACE AT THE TIME, THAT WAS TO ME A GOOD THING.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR RECENT FORAY BACK ONTO THE CATWALK FOR MARK JACOBS.

OF ALL OF THE -- THAT PART OF MY CAREER, THE RUNWAY WAS NOT MY FAVORITE THING EVER.

NOT EVEN -- NOT IN THE BEGINNING, NOT IN THE MIDDLE, NOT IN THE END.

TO HAVE SPENT SO MUCH TIME AWAY FROM IT, TO GO BACK TO IT WAS A LITTLE BIT SCARY.

MARK IS A DEAR FRIEND, WE GREW UP TOGETHER.

AND I FELT AS SAFE AS I COULD POSSIBLY FEEL.

ALSO FASHION SHOWS ARE SO DIFFERENT THAN THEY USED TO BE.

FIRST OF ALL, THEY LAST ALL OF SEVEN MINUTES.

EACH MODEL WEARS ONE OUTFIT.

IT'S NOT LIKE IN MY DAY WHERE WE CHANGED TEN TIMES AND IT WAS COMPLETE CHAOS AND A SHOW COULD LAST AN HOUR.

IT'S SO MUCH EASIER.

YOU JUST KIND OF JUMP IN AND JUMP OUT.

IT WAS PERFECTLY PLEASANT.

BUT I HAVE NO DESIRE TO DO IT AGAIN.

WAS THERE SOMETHING YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT A WOMAN'S CHOICE, A WOMAN'S RIGHT, A WOMAN'S AGE?

YEAH, I MEAN, THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MODELS WHO HAVE COME BACK FROM A PERIOD AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN LIKE, OH, LOOK AT DARRELL HANNAH, LOOK AT JERRY HALL.

THEY'VE COME BACK, THEY'VE HAD SOME KIND OF CAREER AND LEGACY.

I DON'T FEEL IT WAS SO OUT OF BOX.

IF ANYTHING, WHY NOT?

WHY NOT?

WOULDN'T IT BE OKAY FOR PEOPLE TO SEE SOMEONE WHO IS AGING NATURALLY?

YOU KNOW.

IF THERE WAS GOING TO BE A TIME, THIS WAS THE RIGHT TIME.

THEN WE DID THE CAMPAIGN AFTER, WHICH WAS NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN.

THAT WAS REALLY LOVELY TOO.

BECAUSE MARK AND I ARE IN THE PICTURES TOGETHER AND THE PHOTOS ARE TAKEN BY STEVEN MYSEL AND WE'VE ALL BEEN FRIENDS FOR 30-PLUS YEARS.

THE IMAGES ARE KIND OF CLASSIC AND RETRO ALSO.

BLACK AND WHITE, YEAH.

FROM OUR TIME.

THEY'RE MORE KIND OF '40s, '50s.

THAT ALSO FELT FUN TO DO SOMETHING MORE OF A CHARACTER IN A WAY THAN WHO I AM.

A LITTLE ESCAPISM FOR THE DAY.

THERE WAS A TIME, A LONG TIME IN MY CAREER AFTER I'VE STOPPED WORKING REGULARLY AS A MODEL AND WENT BACK TO SCHOOL THAT I REALLY WANTED TO SEPARATE MYSELF FROM THE INDUSTRY.

KIND OF REINVENT MYSELF.

IT'S HARD TO DO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A NAME IN ONE FIELD OR ANOTHER.

DOES YOUR NAME HELP IN THIS FIELD IN 'EVERY MOTHER COUNTS'? IT.

IT MIGHT SOMETIMES.

CERTAINLY IN THE FIELD IT DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL.

IF PEOPLE ARE TOLD, OH, THIS IS A PERSON WHO IS A PUBLIC FIGURE, THEY SEE ME AND THEY'RE LIKE, OH, YOU ARE?

BECAUSE I'M NEVER -- I DON'T PRESENT MYSELF THAT WAY.

I'M NOT -- I'VE NEVER REALLY PRESENTED MYSELF IN ANY KIND OF WAY LIKE THAT.

I THINK WITH MEDIA CERTAINLY, BECAUSE I THINK MEDIA ALWAYS CARES TO HAVE A NAME, IT ALWAYS HELPS.

MY LEGAL NAME DOES NOT INCLUDE TURLINGTON.

BUT I CANNOT SHAKE IT.

BECAUSE NOBODY WILL ACCEPT JUST CHRISTIE BURNS.

SO I JUST INCORPORATE IT, AS OPPOSED TO -- LIKE I DON'T MIND MY NAME, I LOVE MY NAME, BUT IT'S LONG.

IT'S AT THE END OF THE ALPHABET.

YOU WANT TO COME UP.

I WAS REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE THE 'B.'

CHRISTY TURLINGTON BURNS.

IT'S IS A MOUTHFUL.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

THANK YOU.

A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE THERE.

> WE TURN TO ANOTHER WOMAN WHO WEARS A LOT OF HATS SO TO SPEAK.

FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR SAMANTHA POWER HAS BEEN AN ACTIVIST, JOURNALIST, AUTHOR, AND POLICYMAKER.

HER FIRST BOOK ON GENOCIDE 'A PROBLEM FROM HELL' WON A PULITZER PRIZE.

WHERE SHE SERVED ON PRESIDENT OBAMA'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, SHE FOUND THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS.

SHE SAT DOWN TO DISCUSS HER NEW EMAWARE 'THE EDUCATION OF AN IDEALIST.'

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

THANK YOU.

THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY PERSONAL, INTIMATE MEMOIR.

AND IT REALLY BEGINS WITH YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR FATHER AND SORT OF GROWING UP READING MYSTERY STORIES IN A PUB IN IRELAND WHEN YOU WERE A KID.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

SO THE PUB IN DUBLIN WAS CALLED HARDI BEGAN'S.

STILL EXISTS.

IT'S A BIT GRIMY.

IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE PLACE I WOULD WANT MY CHILDREN TO BE HANGING OUT READING MYSTERIES.

BUT THERE WAS -- THERE'S SOMETHING AT LEAST IN MY MEMORY THAT'S QUITE MAGICAL ABOUT MY FATHER, WHO DIED SUBSEQUENTLY WHEN I WAS 14 YEARS OLD.

SO -- WHO I DON'T HAVE AS MANY MEMORIES AS I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE WITH.

BUT HE WOULD BRING ME TO THE PUB, HE WOULD PARK ME NEXT TO HIM, HE WAS SUCH A REGULAR OF THIS PUB, AND UNFORTUNATELY WAS SUCH A BIG DRINKER THAT THE SEAT AT THE BAR WAS CALLED 'THE SEAT OF POWER' FOR JIM POWER, MY DAD.

I WOULD SIT NEXT TO HIM AND GO DOWN TO THE BASEMENT AND WHILE AWAY THE HOUR WITH MY BOOKS.

AND I WAS DONE HE'D RUN TO THE CAR AND GET ME ANOTHER ONE.

NO ENVIRONMENT FOR A CHILD, BUT WHEN YOU'RE A CHILD, THE FACT THAT YOU CAN CAPTURE YOUR FATHER'S ATTENTION WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU KNOW, CAN END UP BEING THE ONLY MEASURE OF THE MAN.

AND THAT'S HOW I FELT AT THE TIME.

I CERTAINLY DIDN'T FEEL AT THAT TIME LIKE I HAD A DIFFICULT CHILDHOOD.

BUT MY MOTHER AND MY FATHER SEPARATED, AND THERE WAS NO DIVORCE IN IRELAND BACK THEN.

SO THE OPTIONS FOR HER, SHE HAD MET SOMEBODY ELSE, ALSO AN IRISHMAN FROM DUBLIN.

AND THEY WANTED TO BUILD A LIFE TOGETHER.

SO THEY DECIDED TO MAKE THEIR MOVE TO THIS COUNTRY.

BUT IT ENDED UP IN TRAGEDY BECAUSE AFTER WE CAME TO AMERICA AND REALLY BEFORE I GOT TO SPEND MORE MEANINGFUL TIME WITH MY DAD, MY FATHER DIED, TO ME, VERY SUDDENLY.

AND YOU TALK SO MUCH ABOUT THE ANXIETIES THAT CAME OUT OF THAT.

THAT SEEMS VERY USEFUL TO READERS TO KNOW TOO, THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF CAN BE DEEPLY ANXIOUS, BECAUSE YOU HAD TO IN SOME WAYS CHOOSE TO MOVE, WHEN YOU WERE IN AMERICA, BETWEEN YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER, THEN HIS DRINKING HAPPENS.

THEN YOU DEAL WITH IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

YOU DEAL WITH AND IT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE CARRYING.

FOR ME IT WAS YEARS LATER BEFORE I REALLY STARTED TO UNPACK JUST THE SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY I FELT AS OFTEN IS THE CASE WITH CHILDREN WHO GROW UP TO ARE ADULTS AND LOOK BACK.

THEY EXAGGERATE, THEY IMPOSE THEIR ADULT SELVES ON THEIR CHILD SELVES.

THINK THAT WHEN THEY WERE CHILDREN THEY HAD THE POWER AND THE AGENCY THAT THEY HAVE WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING BACK.

SO UNPACKING ALL OF THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT YES, I WAS -- AGAIN, WHETHER BECAUSE OF THESE EVENTS OR FOR OTHER REASONS.

BUT I FOUND MYSELF AT DIFFERENT TIMES IN MY LIFE -- USUALLY WHEN I WAS IN UNSTRESSFUL ENVIRONMENTS WITH JUST HORRIFIC KIND OF CONSTRICTED BREATHING.

AND IT WAS OFTEN THE CASE THAT I WAS, YOU KNOW -- COULD FREE MYSELF OF THESE FEELINGS ONLY WHEN I WAS FOR EXAMPLE, A WAR CORRESPONDENT OR WHEN I WAS OPERATING UNDER A DEADLINE OR, YOU KNOW, EVEN LATER IN LIFE, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN A VERY HIGH-STAKES NEGOTIATION.

WHEREAS WHEN THINGS WERE STILL, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER LAY WITHIN WOULD COME BUBBLING UP.

I'D WRITE ABOUT TRYING WITH THERAPISTS TO UNDERSTAND THAT A LITTLE BIT.

SOMETIMES YOU FEEL VERY ALONE WHEN YOU'RE GOING THROUGH EPISODES LIKE THAT OR YOU'RE FEELING -- I MEAN, PEOPLE HAVE MANY MORE SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES THAN I HAVE FACED.

BUT WHETHER IT'S THAT OR WRITING ABOUT OUR EFFORTS TO CONCEIVE A CHILD AND INFERTILITY AND IVF AND ALL OF THAT.

IT'S JUST -- THIS IS LIFE.

THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE VENEER OF ALL THESE POLISHED PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND.

THERE'S A GREAT SAYING THAT I COME BACK TO IN THE BOOK, NEVER COMPARE YOUR INSIDES TO SOMEBODY ELSE'S OUTSIDES.

AND I FEEL LIKE THERE'S SOMETHING DEEP IN THAT, BUT OPEN UP THE INSIDES AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT EVERYBODY HAS THEIR STRUGGLES.

TELL ME ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW OBAMA.

IT CAME ABOUT BECAUSE HE READ 'A PROBLEM FROM HELL,' THE BOOK ON AMERICAN RESPONSES TO GENOCIDE.

AND I WAS SURPRISED.

HE WAS THE ONLY SENATOR WHO REACHED OUT TO ME, HAD REACHED OUT TO ME AT THAT POINT AT LEAST, HAVING READ THE BOOK.

AND I THOUGHT MAYBE HE'D WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE BOOK IN ITS NARROW SENSE.

FOCUSING SPECIFICALLY ON MASS ATROCITIES AND WHAT COULD BE DONE ON THIS OR THAT.

BUT IN FACT HE WAS REALLY INTERESTED, IT WAS A CREATIVE READ OR BROADER READ, IN SORT OF WHAT THAT SET OF RESPONSES INDICATED ABOUT THE TENDENCY OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT NOT TO THINK ABOUT HUMAN CONSEQUENCES MORE BROADLY ON A WHOLE SET OF ISSUES.

HE WAS NEW TO THE SENATE, ON THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, AND WANTING TO PUT FORTH ALREADY WHAT HE CALLED A TOUGH, SMART, AND HUMANE APPROACH TO FOREIGN POLICY.

YOU BECOME A FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

YOU GET TO KNOW CASS SUN STEIN, WHO BECOMES YOUR HUSBAND.

THAT WAS A BIT OF A MIRACLE.

THAT'S MORE SERENDIPITY.

I WAS SITTING AT MY DESK ASK CASS, I RECEIVED A LETTER -- I RECEIVED AN EMAIL FROM CASS SUNSTEIN, WHOSE BOOKS I'D READ.

THE EMAIL BASICALLY WAS LAMBASTING THE STATE OF THE CAMPAIGN, OR AT LEAST ONE SUBSET OF THE CAMPAIGN, THAT WORKED ON OBAMA'S RULE OF LAW IDEAS.

AND IT'S A BLAST EMAIL, HE DIDN'T MEAN TO BLAST OUT.

HE WAS TRYING TO SEND IT TO ONE PERSON AND I RECEIVED IT.

EMAIL MISTAKE.

YEAH, COMPLETELY.

I'M THINKING, DID HE JUST SEND TO ONE PERSON?

IT WAS ADDRESSED TO ONE PERSON.

MY THE ONLY ONE?

I REALIZED IT HAD GONE TO THE ENTIRE OBAMA CAMPAIGN.

THAT MADE YOU DECIDE YOU WANTED TO MARRY HIM?

I THOUGHT, POOR GUY.

WHAT ELSE?

NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO MARRY HIM.

NO, I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, I'VE DONE THAT, AND IT SUCKS.

MY HEART -- IT JUST WENT OUT TO CASS SUNSTEIN.

I WROTE HIM, I SAID, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, NEXT TIME YOU'RE IN BOSTON LET'S GET A COFFEE, I PROMISE YOU'LL FORGET.

THEN WE WERE MARRIED.

HE HAD TO WALK YOU THROUGH -- ON BOOK TOUR YOU MAKE THE MISTAKE OF OFFHANDEDLY USING THE WORD MONSTER WHEN TALKING ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON.

NOT MY FINEST HOUR.

AND SO YOU HAVE TO STEP DOWN FROM THE CAMPAIGN FOR A WHILE.

YEAH.

YOU'RE IN THE PENALTY BOX.

THE SIN BIN AS MY IRISH RELATIVES CALLED IT.

IT WAS MY FIRST CAMPAIGN.

I WAS SO EMOTIONALLY INVESTED.

I DID NOT HAVE A KIND OF DISTANCE OR THE EXPERIENCE OF PRIOR CAMPAIGNS.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT WERE PROBABLY IN RETROSPECT PRETTY TRADITIONAL -- MAYBE NOT IDEAL CAMPAIGN TACTICS, BUT A BIT RUN OF THE MILL, FOR ME WERE JUST THESE TRANSGRESSIONS, THESE OUTRAGES.

SO BASICALLY I WENT OFF AND WAS, YOU KNOW, ALL UPSET ABOUT SOMETHING THAT THE CLINTON CAMPAIGN WAS DOING.

AND THEN A REPORTER PUBLISHED IT AND IT INCLUDED THE DENIGRATING COMMENTS ABOUT SENATOR CLINTON.

AND IT WAS MORTIFYING.

FOR THE FIRST TIME REALLY SINCE THE COMMUNITY OF REPORTERS I'D BEEN WITH IN BOSNIA, I WAS ON THIS AMAZING TEAM, AND THE NEXT THING, POOF.

IT WAS GONE.

AND I HAD JUST DART STARTED DATING CASS AT THE TIME.

AND MY IMPULSE WAS TO PUSH HIM AWAY AND TO GO THROUGH THIS PERIOD WHERE I WAS VERY EMBARRASSED AND ASHAMED AS TO WHAT HAD HAPPENED, BUT TO GO THROUGH IT ON MY OWN.

AND HE WOULDN'T LET ME.

AND THIS WAS JUST, OKAY.

AND YOUR MENTOR, RICHARD HOLBROOKE, DECIDES TO GIVE YOU A WEDDING GIFT.

HE DECIDED -- HE WAS ONE OF THE GREAT NEGOTIATORS IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY HISTORY.

HE DECIDED TO PUT THOSE SKILLS TO USE AND WENT TO SENATOR CLINTON AFTER BARACK OBAMA HAD SECURED THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION.

AND HE SAID, I WOULD LIKE TO BROKER A MEETING BETWEEN SAMANTHA, WHO STEPPED DOWN FROM THE CAMPAIGN FOR THE THING SHE SAID ABOUT YOU, AND YOU.

WOULD YOU INDULGE THAT?

AND SHE WAS GREAT.

THE REAL HITTING OF REALITY THAT HAPPENS TO YOU IS SYRIA.

EXPLAIN WHY YOU WERE SO ADAMANT THAT AMERICA NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING WHEN ASSAD USES THOSE CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

WELL -- I MEAN, TECHNICALLY EVERYONE IN THE WORLD WAS ADAMANT THAT SOMEONE NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING.

I MEAN, IT WAS THE LARGEST CHEMICAL WEAPONS ATTACK IN 25 YEARS.

THE CHALLENGING QUESTION WAS, WHAT WAS THE THING THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE?

AND WHAT WAS THE TOOL THAT COULD BE EMPLOYED AT MANAGEABLE RISK OR COST THAT WOULD BRING ABOUT THE BENEFITS THAT YOU SOUGHT, WHICH IS NO MORE CHEMICAL WEAPONS ATTACKS OF THAT MONSTROUS NATURE?

WHAT I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK IS WHAT MANY REMEMBER, WHICH WAS GLOBAL REVULSION OVER WHAT HAD OCC OCCURRED, RESPONSE OF PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND BASICALLY A RESOLVE TO PUNISH THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS ATTACK WITH LIMITED MILITARY AIR STRIKES, FOLLOWED BY A TASKING TO ME TO GO AND GET U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTORS OUT OF SYRIA.

NOT TO GO PHYSICALLY TO SYRIA BUT TO GO TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL AND TO GET HIM TO PULL THOSE INSPECTORS OUT.

BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE TO ANSWER A QUESTION THAT DIDN'T NEED TO BE RESOLVED, WHICH WAS NOT WHO DID IT, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A VERY USEFUL TO RESOLVE BECAUSE RUSSIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES WERE CLAIMING IT WASN'T THE SYRIAN REGIME, BUT THEY WERE ONLY THERE WITH THE MANDATE TO DISCOVER WHETHER OR NOT CHEMICAL WEAPONS HAD BEEN USED, AND EVERYBODY KNEW THEY HAD BEEN USED.

RUSSIA, IRAN, THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT, NOBODY WAS DENYING IT.

THE ONLY RELEVANT QUESTION WAS WHO HAD DONE IT AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.

SO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL, FOR A SET OF REASONS THAT I EXPLAIN IN THE BOOK, SAID, THEY'RE THERE, WE'RE GOING TO FULFILL THE MANDATE, AND THEY STAYED AND THEY GATHERED SAMPLES AND THEY TALKED TO SURVIVORS AND THEY ESTABLISHED, OF COURSE, WHAT EVERYBODY ALREADY KNEW, WHICH WAS THAT SARIN HAD BEEN USED.

BUT OVER THE COURSE OF THAT WEEK WHERE THEY DIDN'T COME HOME, IN THE MEANTIME, DAVID CAMERON WENT TO HIS PARLIAMENT AND WAS THWARTED IN HIS EFFORT TO GET SUPPORT TO JOIN THE UNITED STATES AND FRANCE IN THESE -- IN THIS LIMITED MILITARY ACTION.

AND PRESIDENT OBAMA HIMSELF BEGAN TO HEAR FROM MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO SAID, COME HERE, YOU SHOULDN'T BE GOING INTO A COUNTRY LIKE SYRIA, THIS DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MILITARY AUTHORIZATION THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS GIVEN IN THE WAKE OF 9/11, YOU SHOULD SEEK A NEW AUTHORIZATION.

OR PEOPLE CRITICIZING HIM FOR OTHER REASONS.

BUT WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING IS, IN THAT WEEK, PRESIDENT OBAMA DECIDED TO CHANGE COURSE, NOT IN HIS OWN POSITION.

HE WAS STILL INTENT ON USING AIR STRIKES AGAIN TO TRY TO DISABLE DIMENSIONS OF THE PROGRAM.

BUT HE DECIDED THAT IN ORDER TO DO SO, AND IN ORDER TO NOT TAKE ON THE RISK OF THIS LASTING A LONG TIME AND ASSAD BEING ABLE TO IN EFFECT WAIT THE UNITED STATES OUT, HE DECIDED TO GO TO CONGRESS.

BUT IN YOUR BOOK, YOU SAY YOU ASK HIM THE VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION.

WHEN HE SURPRISES YOU AND SAYS, OKAY, DO THE RED LINE, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO DO THE ATTACK UNTIL I GET CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL.

AND YOU SAY?

WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON'T GET THE VOTES?

AND I HAD JUST GONE THROUGH SENATE CONFIRMATION.

AND SO AS I WRITE IN THE BOOK, EVERY FIBER IN MY BEING WAS THINKING, IT DOESN'T REALLY FEEL LIKE IT'S ON THE LEVEL UP THERE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THE CASE, REALLY, THAT THE VERY REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE BEEN CALLING ON YOU TO USE FORCE AND DENOUNCING WHAT THEY CALL YOUR FECKLESSNESS, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TURN AROUND AND NOW EMBRACE WHAT YOU DO.

THEY SEEM TO WANT TO DO THE OPPOSITE OF WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO ON A GIVEN DAY.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS ALSO THE GREAT EXHAUSTION AND DID IT ILLUSIONMENT AND DESPAIR OVER HOW THE WAR IN IRAQ WENT, AND DEMOCRATS ESPECIALLY AND PROGRESSIVES ARE VERY DISTURBED BY THAT AND VERY CONCERNED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT LEAD US TO BE ENTANGLED.

SO I HAD THE SENSE OF I'M NOT SURE AMONG REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, THIS IS A QUORUM HERE FOR THIS?

BUT HE -- AGAIN, HIS LOGIC WAS -- IN ONE DIMENSION HIS LOGIC WAS VERY SOUND, WHICH WAS, YOU ARE STRONGER AS AMERICA IN THE WORLD WHEN YOU HAVE DOMESTIC BACKING.

AND YOU ARE WEAK WHERE YOU'RE OUT THERE ALONE WITHOUT THE BALLAST OF A CONSTITUENCY BEHIND YOU.

SO WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING AS I WRITE IS WE VERY QUICKLY REALIZE THAT THERE IS NO MEANINGFUL CONSTITUENCY FOR THE APPROACH THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS ALREADY PUBLICLY COMMITTED HIMSELF TO.

REPUBLICANS WHO HAD BEEN FOR THE USE OF FORCE ON MONDAY, YOU KNOW, AS SOON AS OBAMA WAS FOR IT, FLIPPED AND OPPOSED IT.

AND DEMOCRATS WERE --

BUT SURELY HE KNEW THAT THAT WAS A RISK.

HE MUST HAVE KNOWN CONGRESS WAS NOT GOING TO GIVE HIM THE AUTHORIZATION.

EVEN YOU SAID IT AT THE MEETING.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT OF REVISIONISM.

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED TO GET THE UNITED STATES -- IN PART TO GET THE UNITED STATES OUT OF WARS AND DREW DOWN OUR PRESENCE IN IRAQ AND SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCED IT, I MEAN, TO THE LEVELS REALLY ROUGHLY THAT THEY'RE AT NOW IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND HAS A SKEPTICISM ABOUT -- CERTAINLY ABOUT WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND WHERE -- IN ALL THE WAYS IT CAN GO WRONG.

I THINK PEOPLE BELIEVED THAT THIS WAS LIKE A PLOY ON HIS PART THAT HE WENT TO CONGRESS IN ORDER TO FAIL.

AS I WRITE IN THE BOOK, HE WENT TO CONGRESS THINKING HE WAS GOING TO SUCCEED.

IT SEEMS VERY NAIVE IN RETROSPECT, IT WAS CLEARLY A MISTAKE.

IT WAS A MISTAKE.

IT WAS A MISTAKE TO GO TO CONGRESS?

IT WAS A MISTAKE IN THE SENSE THE VOTES WEREN'T THERE AND WE WERE PUBLICLY COMMITTED TO A COURSE OF ACTION THAT THEN -- THEN TO TAKE THAT COURSE OF ACTION IN DEFIANCE OF CONGRESSIONAL WILL WAS IMPOSSIBLE.

SO IN A SENSE THE PRESIDENT'S HANDS WERE TIED BY THE PROCEDURAL PATHWAY THAT WE TOOK.

BUT IN THE END, AND I CREDIT PRESIDENT OBAMA FOR HIS IMPROVISATION HERE, HE WENT TO PRESIDENT PUTIN AND SAID, HEY, YOU KNOW.

IN THE KIND OF -- I THINK BLUFFED ABLUFF ED A BIT ABOUT THE PROSPECTS FOR BEING ABLE TO SECURE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORIZATION OR THE WILLINGNESS TO GO AHEAD -- HE ALWAYS SAID HIS COMMANDER IN CHIEF AUTHORITY GAVE HIM LICENSE TO GO.

HE RESERVED --

WOULD HE HAVE GONE AHEAD?

NO.

I DON'T THINK SO.

WAS THAT A MISTAKE?

AGAIN, I THINK TO -- I THINK IT WAS VERY REASONABLE WHEN PUTIN SAID YES, I WILL WORK WITH YOU TO TAKE -- WHAT PUTIN SAID AT THE TIME WAS ALL THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS AWAY, YOU KNOW -- TO GET THEM OUT OF A MAD MAN'S HANDS SO THAT SARIN STRIKES OF THAT MAGNITUDE WOULD NOT HAPPEN AGAIN, THAT WAS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

BUT THE COST OF CONGRESS' WILL BEING EXPOSED, OR LACK OF WILL BEING EXPOSED, THE COST OF A KIND OF AN IMPRESSION GLOBALLY THAT THE PRESIDENT COULDN'T DELIVER DOMESTICALLY THE SUPPORT HE NEEDED FOR A FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITY THAT HE HAD SAID HE HAD, THERE WAS A COST TO U.S.

CREDIBILITY THAT WAS PROFOUND, AND OF COURSE THE SYRIAN WAR ITSELF RAGES ON.

WEREN'T THERE COSTS MORE TO OUR CREDIBILITY, WHICH IS THE ENTIRE REFUGEE CRISIS WHICH HAS NOW DESTABILIZED EUROPE?

YEAH, I THINK IF YOU ASK WHAT ARE THE COSTS OF THE SYRIAN WAR?

I MEAN, 500,000 PEOPLE KILLED.

THIS ISSUE OF AMERICA SAYING THAT IT'S GOING TO DO SOMETHING AND THEN NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH.

YOU CAN DEBATE THAT.

AND THEN THE SPILL-OVER INTO THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES WHICH ULTIMATELY IN 2014-15 LED TO THIS HUGE MIGRATION ACROSS THE CONTINENT WHICH -- WITHOUT WHICH I'M NOT SURE WE'D HAVE BREXIT.

I'M NOT SURE EVEN THAT IMMIGRATION WOULD HAVE BEEN SO SALIENT TO ALLOW SOMEONE LIKE TRUMP TO BE ELECTED IN THIS COUNTRY AND ALL OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT.

HAVING SAID THAT, WALTER, IN FAIRNESS, BECAUSE HINDSIGHT IS 20/20, I CAN'T ALSO SAY TO TO YOU THAT HAD WE TAKEN LIMITED MILITARY STRIKES IN AUGUST, SEPTEMBER OF 2013, THAT THOSE LIMITED ACTIONS WOULD HAVE AVERTED ALL OF THOSE CONSEQUENCES.

SAMANTHA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT TO SEE YOU.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THE FAILURES ACROSS THAT RED LINE IS A DECISION MANY ANALYSTS WILL ALWAYS BE A STAIN ON THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, ESPECIALLY WITH ASSAD ON THE VERGE OF TOTAL VICTORY IN SYRIA.

NOW BE SURE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW WHEN I'LL BE SPEAKING WITH HOLLYWOOD SUPERSTAR BRAD PITT ABOUT HIS HIGHLY ANTICIPATED NEW FILM 'AD AS STRA.'

IT'S AN EMOTIONAL TURN FOR THE SCI-FI GENRE.

HERE'S A PREVIEW.

WE ALL CARRY I THINK GREAT PAINS, GREAT REGRETS.

WE'VE ALL EXPERIENCED LOSS.

WE'VE ALL EXPERIENCED GREAT LONELINESS AT TIMES.

AND WE'RE GOOD AT PACKING THAT AWAY, NOT DEALING WITH IT.

SOME ARE REALLY GOOD AT GETTING THROUGH IT.

AND COMING OUT THE OTHER SIDE IN A MORE WELL-ROUNDED, I THINK MORE CONFIDENT AND LOVING HUMAN BEING.

SO WE JUST WANTED TO, LIKE -- NO HOLDS BARRED.

LET'S JUST GO.

LET'S GET IT OUT THERE.

AND THAT REVEALING CONVERSATION AIRS TOMORROW.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME, WALTER, AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.