October 14, 2019

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HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PRESIDENT TRUMP ORDERS ALL U.S.

TROOPS OUT OF SYRIA AND ISIS IS ON THE LOOSE AGAIN.

JOINING ME SHIRAZ MAHER, THE WORLD'S LEADING AUTHORITY ON RADICAL JIHADISM AND CORY SHOCKEY, THE FORMER PENTAGON POLICY-MAKER.

THEN --

THIS IS A COLLECTIVE CRISIS THAT DEMANDS MASSIVE COLLECTIVE ACTION NOW.

JANE FONDA TAT AGAIN.

THE LONGTIME ACTRESS AND OSCAR WINNING ACTRESS GETS ARRESTED FOR THE CLIMATE.

AND MOST ECONOMIC GROWTH THAT'S OCCURRED IN AMERICA HAS GONE TO THE VERY, VERY TOP OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION.

HARVARD ECONOMIST ABOUT THE FADING AMERICAN DREAM.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN RIGHT NOW IN NORTHERN SYRIA TURKISH TROOPS CONTINUE THEIR BRUTAL PUSH SOUTH, OCCUPYING A WIDE SWATH OF TERRITORY ALONG THE BORDER.

MEANWHILE, IN A STUNNING REVERSAL, SYRIAN GOVERNMENT TROOPS ARE RETURNING TO A REGION THAT THEY CEDED TO THE KURDS SEVEN YEARS AGO.

THE KURDS HAVING LOST FAITH IN THEIR AMERICAN ALLIES NOW ARE EFFECTIVELY GIVING UP CONTROL OF THAT TERRITORY TO PRESIDENT BASHAR ASSAD.

THIS IS ALL HAPPENING AS PRESIDENT TRUMP ORDERS THE LAST AMERICAN TROOPS TO WITHDRAW, LEAVING A MASSIVE SECURITY AND PHYSICAL VACUUM.

THE UNITED NATIONS REPORTS MORE THAN 150,000 PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO FLEE TURKEY'S MILITARY OFFENSIVE, AND IT APPEARS DOZENS OF CIVILIANS AND FIGHTERS ARE DEAD ON BOTH SIDES.

AND WHILE U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY MARK ESPER SAYS HE WARNED HIS TURKISH COUNTERPART THAT AN INVASION WOULD LEAD TO EVERYTHING WE SEE PLAYING OUT NOW, A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE AND GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR ISIS TO RE-EMERGE, AMERICA NONETHELESS CHOSE NOT TO STAND ITS GROUND.

WE DID NOT WANT TO PUT AMERICAN FORCES INTO HARM'S WAY AND DID NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN A CONFLICT THAT DATES BETWEEN 200 YEARS BETWEEN THE TURKS AND KURDS AND GET INVOLVED IN YET ANOTHER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

Reporter: WITH REPORTS OF JAIL FULL OF THOUSANDS OF CAPTURED ISIS FAMILIES EMPTYING, A NIGHTMARE SCENARIO IS JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THIS IS SHIRAZ MAHER, A WORLD RENOWNED EXPERT ON ISLAMIC RADICALIZATION AT KING'S COLLEGE HERE IN LONDON AND A FORMER RADICAL HIMSELF AND THE FORMER PENTAGON POLICY ADVISER CORY SHOCKEY.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, AND WELCOME, SHIRAZ.

CAN I ASK YOU FIRST ABOUT THE ISIS THREAT BECAUSE PRESUMABLY THIS IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, AMERICA'S MINIMAL INVASION -- AMERICA'S MINIMAL INTERVENTION IN SYRIA OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS HAS BEEN TO DEFEAT ISIS.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT ISIS RE-EMERGING, GETTING OUT OF DETENTION CENTERS SINCE THIS TURKISH INVASION?

I THINK ISIS IS A HIGHLY RESILIENT MOVEMENT AND IT'S DEMONSTRATED ITS ABILITY TO REACT TO CIRCUMSTANCES AND TO ADAPT TO CIRCUMSTANCES AS WELL, SO IT FADED AWAY AFTER THE 2003 INVASION OF IRAQ.

LATER ON WHEN IT WAS STILL AL QAEDA IN IRAQ AND RE-FORMED AND WAITED FOR THE RIGHT OPPORTUNITY AFTER IT ROSE UP IN 2011 IN SYRIA TO GO INTO THIS AND NOW THEY HAVE LOST THE TERRITORIAL CALIPHATE IN BOTH PARTS OF IRAQ AND SYRIA AND THEY HAVE PULLED BACK AND HAVE BEEN BIDING THEIR TIME.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A RETURNING ISIS, AN ISIS THAT TAKES ADVANTAGE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING, THIS ISN'T A FUTURE ABSTRACTION.

IT WAS HAMMING BEFORE TRUMP MADE HIS HEY NOUPTMENT LAST WEEK.

THEY WERE IN SYRIA IRAQ TARGETING LOCAL FORCES THAT WERE OPERATING THERE, SO WE'RE SEEING AN INTENSIFICATION THAT HAVE AND PRECISELY THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THE PRESIDENT'S WORDS HAVE CREATED, CHAOS, DISORDER, UNCERTAINTY.

THESE ARE PRECISELY THE ENVIRONMENTS IN WHICH A GROUP LIKE ISIS THRIVES.

WE'RE HEARING REPORTS AT CERTAIN DETENTION FACILITIES ARE NO LONGER BEING GUARDED BY AMERICA'S KURDISH ALLIES BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

WE HEAR THAT SEVERAL HUNDREDS ISIS FIGHT VERSE LEFT SOME OF THESE DETENTION FACILITIES.

ARE YOU SAYING THIS WAS HAPPENING ANYWAY, OR IS IT GETTING WORSE NOW?

I THINK WE CAN SAY IT'S DEFINITELY GETTING WORSE AND MORE ACUTE.

CLEARLY THERE WERE ATTACKS AND PRESSURES ON THE SDF PRIOR TO THIS, BUT NONETHELESS THE REGION THAT THEY WERE CONTROLLING WAS STILL THE MOST STABLE PART OF SYRIA, AND THEY HAD ADEQUATE RESOURCE TO ADDRESS SOME OF THIS.

THEY THEMSELVES WERE SAYING WE WOULD LIKE THE WEST TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CITIZENS WHO ARE IN DETENTION.

WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE REPATRIATED HOME TO FACE JUSTICE AND SO ON AND THE WEST DID NOT QUITE DO THAT, AND NOW GIVEN THE FACT OF THE PRESSURES THAT THEY ARE GOING TO FACE TURKEY, THERE WILL BE A REPRIORITIZATION OF SOURCE AND MANPOWER TO ADDRESS THAT ISSUE.

AND THE SDF IS OBVIOUSLY THE SYRIAN DEFENSE FORCES, THESE KURDS WHO ARE HELPING, RIGHT, THE UNITED STATES?

JUST PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE.

WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS FOR THE U.S. AND THE COALITION AGAINST ISIS?

THEY HAVE BEEN THE GROUND FORCE DOING THE FIGHTING FOR THE DEFEAT OF ISIS, AND CAN YOU SEE IT IN THE CASUALTY FIGURES.

THE UNITED STATES SUFFERED ONLY FIVE CASUALTIES IN THE ANTI-ISIS CAMPAIGN.

THE SDF SUFFERED OVER 11,000.

THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THE HARD DANGEROUS WORK, AND WE HAVE JUST ABANDONED THEM.AMERICAN -- FIVES 11,000 PLUS ON THE KURDISH SIDE.

YEAH.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN R AMERICAN POLICY GOING FORWARD AND FOR THE GEOPOLITICAL REALITY IN THE REGION GIVEN THAT THE KURDS HAVE ALWAYS COME UP AGAINST THE TURKS, THE IRAQIS?

I MEAN, THEY HAVE BASICALLY NOWHERE TO GO AND ALL THE MAJOR COUNTRIES CONSIDER THEM RIGHTLY STATELESS AND THEY CONSIDER THEM TERRORISTS.

WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING IS TO SEPARATE THE KURDISH PEOPLE OF NORTHERN IRAQ, OF SYRIA, OF IRAN AND OF SOUTHERN TURKEY FROM TERRORIST FORCES THAT ARE FIGHTING ON BEHALF OF THEIR LIBERTY BECAUSE IT'S THE CIVILIAN POPULATION THAT'S GOING TO BEAR AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF THE UNPLEASANTNESS THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS JUST DELIVERED THEM INTO WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

GREEN LIGHTING THE TURKISH INVASION.

THE SECOND THING IS THAT BASHAR ASSAD HAS NOW EFFECTIVELY WON THE -- THE CIVIL WAR IN SYRIA, THAT THE KURDISH FORCES IN SYRIA FELT THE NEED TO MAKE A BARGAIN WITH BASHAR ASSAD BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO BE BETTER OFF UNDER AIT IS THAN THEY WERE GOING TO BE UNDER TURKISH CONTROL WHICH TELLS YOU A TON, AND I GUESS THE THIRD THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT THE NEXT TIME THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO ROUND UP A POSSE AND GET OTHER COUNTRIES NOT JUST THE SDF AND THE REGIONAL COUNTRIES BUT WE LEFT BRITAIN AND FRANCE IN THE LURCH.

THERE ARE 81 COUNTRIES FIGHTING IN THE ANTI-ISIS COALITION.

WE DIDN'T INFORM ANY OF THEM OF THIS DECISION.

WE DIDN'T MAKE PLANS FOR HOW THEY WERE GOING TO BE SAFELY TAKEN OUT OF THE THEATER.

THIS IS A TERRIBLE DAY FOR AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

I MEAN, IT'S A TERRIBLE DAY THE WAY YOU, YOU KNOW, DESCRIBE IT, BUT IT IS TRULY UNBELIEVABLE TO THINK, BOTH SHIRAZ AND TO YOU CORY, WHAT YOU'VE JUST STATED, THAT AFTER DOING THEIR UTMOST TO KEEP ASSAD UNTIL RUMP PARTS OF SYRIA AROUND THIS MAP, THEY ARE NOW INVITING HIM TO COME UP TO TERRITORIES THAT THEY DENIED HIM FOR YEARS BECAUSE THEY ARE PUT IN AN UNTENABLE SITUATION.

WHEN YOU GUYS LOOK AT THIS MAP, WHAT SHOULD WE BE WORRIED ABOUT?

THIS IS WHAT TURKISH FORCES HAD AND THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT.

I THINK YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT OF TURKEY DOING WHAT PRESIDENT ERDOGAN SAID AT THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO THAT HE WOULD DO WHICH IS PUSH MORE THAN A MILLION SYRIAN REFUGEES BACK INTO SYRIAN TERRITORY AND LEAVE THEM TO THE TENDER MERCIES OF BASHAR ASSAD.

THESE ARE THE ONES WHO FLED HIM, LET'S NOT FORGET.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

WE ARE CONSIGNING THEM TO BASHAR ASSAD'S CONTROL.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING ON, YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF NORMAL OR SOME OF THE DEEPER WEBSITES AND ONLINE SANCTUARIES THAT ISIS AND THE OTHERS HAVE?

WHAT ARE THEY SAYING ABOUT ALL OF THIS?

THE PRIMARY PLATFORM OF COMMUNICATION IS TELEGRAM WHERE ISIS SUPPORTERS AND MEMBERS OF THE ORGANIZATION THEMSELVES ARE SPEAKING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IN SYRIA.

THERE'S TWO THINGS THAT THEY ARE DOING.

FIRST THAT THEY ARE GLOATING ABOUT WHAT THEY SEE AS A SELLOUT OF THE KURDS BECAUSE THEY SAID WE ALWAYS TOLD YOU THAT YOU WERE PAWNS, WE ALWAYS SAID THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD CHEW YOU UP AND SPIT YOU OUT WHEN THEY WERE DONE WITH YOU AND IN A SENSE THAT'S WHAT IS TRANSPIRED.

IT'S PLAYING IN THE NARRATIVE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT AN ALLY FOR ANYBODY IN THE REGION, THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL CUT AND RUN WHEN IT ACHIEVES A VERY NARROW SMALL PARTICULAR GOAL AND THAT IT'S SUBJECT TO THE WHIMS OF A PRESIDENT WHO MAKES POLICY ON THE HOOF.

THAT'S ONE ASPECT AND THE OTHER ASPECT IS REJOICING AT THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT'S NOW BEEN PRESENT.

FOR A LONG TIME I HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THE WOMEN AFFILIATED WITH THE SDF HOLDING THEM UP IN THE EMBLEMATIC WHICH THAT THEY HAVE HELD UP WOMEN AND WOMEN PRISONERS TO SAY THAT THEY SHOULD BE FLOWED, THAT THEY ARE A TARGET WHO NEED TO BE RESCUED AND, OF COURSE, NOW THERE ARE MULTIPLE CALLS FOR THESE WOMEN TO EITHER RESIST THE DETENTION THAT THEY ARE IN TO TRY AND BREAK FREE AND THAT THE MEMBERS WILL GO AND TRY TO HELP THEM ESCAPE FROM THOSE AREAS.

SHIRAZ, CAN I ASK YOU BECAUSE I INTRODUCED YOU AS A FORMER RADICAL YOURSELF.

YOU WERE, I THINK, POST- 9/11 TRAUMATIZED TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU KIND OF WENT WITH THE RADICAL FLOW AND THEN WHEN THE RADICAL ATTACKED THE BRITISH TRANSPORT SYSTEM RIGHT HERE IN LONDON IN JULY 2005, YOU HAD SECOND THOUGHTS AND NOW ARE COMPLETELY REFORMED, SO TO SPEAK.

YOU'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, WALK US THROUGH AND EXPAND A LITTLE BIT MORE ON WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, HOW OTHER PEOPLE MAY BE LOOKING AT THE WEST RIGHT NOW.

WELL, I THINK THE MESSAGING THAT TAKES PLACE IN THESE REGIONS, TWO YOUNG PEOPLE, VULNERABLE PEOPLE, IS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A RELIABLE PARTNER OR ALLY AND THAT YOU NEED TO RELY ON EXCLUSIVELY CONCESSIONAL MOVEMENTS THAT ARE ISLAMIST, THAT ARE JIHADIST AND SEEKING THE OTHER WORLD, MUSLIMS, NON-MUSLIMS, US AND THEM IN THE CLASSICAL THAT ALL TOTALITARIAN EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS OPERATE IN CREATING THIS IN-GROUP LOVE VERSUS THAT GROUP HOSTILITY AND THAT'S WHAT WE SEE IN THE ISLAMIC STATE OR AL QAEDA PUSH OR MUCH MORE POLITICALLY ORIENTED ISLAMIST ORGANIZATIONS.

I WASN'T IN ANY VIOLENT WING BUT WE WERE AT POLITICAL END OF CREATING THE MORAL IMPERATIVE IN WHICH THESE TYPES OF GROUPS OPERATE, SO I THINK AS CORY HIMSELF HAS SAID.

THIS IS A DISASTROUS MOMENT FOR U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, A DISASTROUS MOMENT FOR THE AMERICA IN LARGE PARTS OF THE ARAB MUSLIM WORLD.

CORY, CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON WHAT SECOND OF DEFENSE MARK ESPER HAN BEEN SAYING.YOU SAW THE LITTLE CLIP E PLAYED WHEREBY HE'S SAYING WE DON'T WANT OUR FORCES IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS HISTORIC ANCIENT BAT.

BUT, I MEAN, THE FORCES WERE THERE AS A BUFFER PRECISELY NOT TO HAVE THIS HISTORIC ANCIENT BATTLE.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, RIGHT?

THE SUGGESTION THAT WE DON'T WANT OUR FORCES IN HARM'S WAY MEANS THEY SHOULDN'T BE IN SYRIA, AND THEY WERE IN SYRIA FOR A VERY IMPORTANT REASON WHICH WAS STABILIZING A FRAGILE PEACE IS TO STRONG A WORD, A FRAGILE CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES THAT WOULD HAVE PRESENTED TURKEY AND SYRIA FROM COMING INTO DIRECT CONFLICT AND THAT WOULD HAVE PRESERVED THE AUTONOMY OF NOT JUST KURDS IN NORTHERN SYRIA BUT ALSO ARABS AND CHRISTIANS IN NORTHERN SYRIA, AND THAT HAS BEEN COLLAPSED BY OUR DEPARTURE.

CAN I JUST PLAY ANOTHER PIECE OF SOUND FROM THE DEFENSE SECOND.KE TO THE NETWORK SUNDAY PROGRAMS THIS WEEKEND.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE SDF IS CUTTING A DEAL WITH THE SYRIANS AND RUSSIANS.

WE SHOULD SAY SDF.

THE KURDISH FORCES.

THE SYRIAN DEMOCRACY FORCES.

DEFENSE FORCES.

THEY ARE CUTTING A DEAL AND WHAT WE'RE FACING IS U.S. FORCES IN A -- TRAPPED BETWEEN A SYRIAN-RUSSIAN ARMY MOVING NORTH TO TAKE ON THE TURKISH ARMY THAT IS MOVING SOUTH.

IT PUTS US IN A TERRIBLE POSITION, AND THE -- THE PROTECTION AND SAFETY OF SERVICE MEMBERS COMES FIRST TO ME.

SEE.

I'M SOMEWHAT MYSTIFIED BY THAT, BECAUSE HE'S ACTING AS IF ONE CAME AFTER THE OTHER.

I MEAN, THE TERRIBLE POSITION IS BECAUSE THE U.S. PULLED OUT.

OR THAT THE MOVEMENT OF BOTH OF THOSE FORCES WAS INEVITABLE AND THE PRESENCE OF THE UNITED STATES WOULDN'T HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCE.

I THINK IT'S PROBLEMATIC IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

CAN I JUST ASK YOU BOTH.

WAS IT INEVITABLE AT SAM POINT THAT THE U.S. WOULD BE CAUGHT BETWEEN THESE FORCES, OR WAS IT -- WAS THE GROUND ALREADY LAID AND THE TABLE SET FOR THIS TO GRADUALLY BECOME MORE AND MORE PEACEFUL UP HERE IN THE NORTH?

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE ODDS OF IT GROWING MORE PEACEFUL WERE ACTUALLY A LOT STRONGER THAN IT CURRENTLY SOUNDS LIKE.

IF YOU THINK BACK TO THE END OF THE IRAQ WAR IN 1991 AND THE WAY THAT THE UNITED STATES MOBILIZED A HUMANITARIAN OPERATION TO STABILIZE WHAT WE THINK OF AS THE KURDISH AREAS OF NORTHERN IRAQ AND FOR 20 YEARS PROVIDED SECURITY, ENCOURAGED DEVELOPMENT, GREW A GENERATION OF LEADERS THAT WE NOW SEE AS AN ENORMOUSLY POSITIVE FORCE IN IRAQ, THAT WAS POSSIBLE IN NORTHERN SYRIA, TOO, AND BY WRITING -- BY THE PRESIDENT WRITING IT OFF, IT'S ANOTHER ONE OF THE SAD CONSEQUENCES AND COSTS OF THIS DECISION.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE HISTORIC ANIMOSITY BETWEEN THE KURDS AND THE TURKS.

TURKEY DESCRIBES THEM AS TERRORISTS, I MEAN, NOT THE CIVILIANS BUT THE YPG.

THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE U.S. ALLIES AND THE PKK WHICH THE U.S. ALSO THINK ARE TERRORISTS.

AGAIN, IS IT INEVITABLE THAT TURKEY IS GOING TO DO EVERYTHING IN ITS POWER WHENEVER IT SEES THE POSSIBILITY TO WIPE THEM OUT.

WELL, I THINK AS WE'RE SEEING, YES, TURKEY IS GOING TO TAKE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES AND THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SYMPATHY THAT WE SHOULD HAVE FOR TURKS THAT ARE THE VICTIMS OF TERRORISM BY TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, BUT THEY ARE NOT SOLVING THE PROBLEM THE WAY THAT THEY ARE ACTING NOW.

AND JUST AGAIN TO SORT OF PUT IT IN SORT OF A WIDER CONTEXT.

WE'VE GOT ESSENTIALLY TWO NATO POWERS, TURK TO AND THE UNITED STATES, EITHER AT LOGGERHEADS OR NOT.

I CAN'T REALLY TELL.

ARE THEY TELLING THE TURKS TO PULL BACK OR NOT, OR ARE THEY STILL GIVING THE GREEN LIGHT.

YOU'VE GOT EUROPE NATO MEMBERS SAYING THEY SHOULD LOOK SANCTIONS AGAINST TURKEY.

YOU'VE GOT RUSSIA COMING BACK INTO THE FRAY.

IT JUST SEEMS GEOPOLITICALLY A HUGE CAN OF WORMS HAS BEEN OPENED.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT AND IT'S NOT JUST TWO NATO AL WHOIZ ARE AT THE POINTS.

THE FRENCH HAVE TROOPS THERE AND THE DANS HAVE TROOPS THERE AND IT'S A LOT OF NATIVE ALLIES THAT SUPPORTS SURKY RIGHT NOW.

SHIRAZ, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS AND ANALYZE THIS, AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE RADICALIZATION IN ISIS, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

YOU'VE SAID ALL ALONG THAT THESE GROUPS PLAY THE LONG GAME, EVEN WHEN THE CALF ATE WAS DESTROYED.

WERE THEY DEFEATED?

I THINK THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT HERE.

THE LONG TERM AMBITIONS OF THESE GROUPS WHEN THEY WERE ALL DETAINED IN IRAQ IN 2006 AND THEY TOLD THEM TO BIDE THEIR TIME.

AND THEY WAITED 18 TO 24 MONTHS AND THEY SAW THE OPPORTUNITY IN SYRIA AND MOVED IN AND CAPITALIZED TON THERE AND IT'S WELL KNOWN THAT AS ISIS WAS LOSING TERRITORY AS MEMBERS WERE BEING DETAINED AND CAPTURE, THOSE WHO WERE INVADED WERE CAPTURED AND TOLD, RELAX AND GET RED FOR THE RUSH.

WE WILL COME BACK, AND SO WE HAVE SEEN THE CAMPAIGNS ALREADY LAUNCHED, AND, OF COURSE, THESE THINGS DON'T OCCUR IN A VACUUM.

ISIS WAS ABLE TO ATTRACT SO MANY PEOPLE IN 2014 AND '15 BECAUSE OF THE SUCCESS AND MOMENT MUM I.

WASN'T A FANCY.

THAT WAS A REALITY THAT THEY WERE ACHIEVING SUCCESS AND GAINING TERRITORY AND WINNING BATTLES AND, THEREFORE, MORE PEOPLE WANTED TO BE PART OF THE WINNING TEAM.

NOW IF PEOPLE SEE THEM COME BACK INTO THE AREAS.

IF THEY SEE THE RETURN OF THOSE FIGHTERS YET AGAIN, THAT WILL SEVER AS A BOON FOR OTHER GENERATIONS WHO WANT TO GO OUT AND SUPPORT THIS AND A LOT THAT HAVE IS TRACED RIGHT BACK TO THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THESE WARS HAVE JUST BEEN GOING ON ENDLESSLY SINCE 9/11.

SYRIA IS THE LATEST AFTER IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

PRESIDENTS HAVE WANTED TO END THESE WARS, WHETHER IT'S TRUMP OR WHETHER IT'S OBAMA.

YOU'VE CRITICIZED PRESIDENT OBAMA AND OTHERS HAVE AS WELL FOR THE POLICY IN SYRIA AND EVEN GENERAL MATTIS HAS RECENTLY SAID THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA SAW WHAT HAPPENED WITH ISIS RISE WHEN HE PULLED TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ BACK IN 2011 AND 2012.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT JUST HAPPENED UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.IT'S KIND OF THEN AN ONGOING DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THAT REGION.

AMERICAN PRESIDENTS KEEP WANTING TO WEAN US OFF OF THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT, UNFORTUNATELY, WE STILL CARE WHAT HAPPENS THERE.

WE CARE ABOUT THE GEOPOLITICAL BALANCE AND CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF THE REGION AND THAT KEEPS PULLING US BACK TO TRY TO CREATE A BETTER FUTURE THAN THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION ARE CREATING FOR THEMSELVES.

IS THAT PIE IN THE SKY, SHIRAZ?IS IT -- I MEAN, DO THE AMERICANS, DOES THE WEST, HAVE ANY CHANCE OF PERSUADING PEOPLE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD NOW, WHETHER IT'S ISIS OR ORDINARY CIVILIANS THAT THEY ARE A FORCE FOR DEMOCRATIZATION AND PEACE AND EVENTUAL GOOD.

I THINK THAT THIS IS A VERY DAMAGING MOMENT.

I THINK THE UNITED STATES HAS OFFERED A SERIES OF SETBACK, 9/11 WITH THE VERY CAMPAIGN IN THE WAR ON TERROR AND IN PARTICULAR THIS PARTICULAR ACTION BY PRESIDENT TRUMP IS I THINK AN ACUTE CRISIS WHICH THOUGH, YES, WE CAN CRITICIZE PRESIDENT OBAMA AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND BUSH BEFORE HIM, THERE'S NOTHING QUITE THIS BRAZEN AND WHIMSICAL AND SO DESTRUCTIVE IN THE PACE OF ITS SCALE THAT WE'VE SEEN.

VERY BRIEFLY, CORY, LAST WORD.

HOW KOSS THE UNITED STATES RECOVER FROM THIS?

BY ADOPTING AND ENACTING POLICIES THAT ARE HUMANE AND REASONABLE AND INSTEAD OF DESTRUCTIVELY RECKLESS.

CORY SHOCKEY AND SHIRAZ MAHER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THE ONE TOE ENVIRONMENT, SPEARHEAD HAD HAD BY THE YOUNG AND IT'S GALVANIZING THE OLDER GENERATION, TOO, INCLUDING SOME VERY FAMOUS NAMES AND ACTIVISTS.

JANE FONLDA WAS ARRESTED IN WASHINGTON ON FRIDAY IN AN ACT OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE DURING A CLIMATE CHANGE PROTEST OUTSIDE THE U.S. CAPITAL IT.

THE ARREST HARKENS BACK TO FONDA'S EXTENSIONTIVE AND SOMEWHAT CONTROVERSIAL TRACK REPORT OF SUPPORT FOR MANY DIFFERENT CAUSES RANGING FROM NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND PROTESTING THE VIETNAM WAR.

FONDA, NOW IN HER 80s ANNOUNCED SHE WOULD MOVE TO WEEKSY, THE HEART OF POWER AND GOVERNANCE, TO LAUNCH A SERIES OF WEEKLY CLIMATE CRISIS PROTESTS.

FIRE DRILL FRIDAYS SHE CALLED, IT INSPIRED IN PART BY THE TEENAGE CLIMATE ACTIVIST GRETA THUNBERG WHO FAMOUSLY SAID I WANT YOU TO ACT AS IF OUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE BECAUSE IT IS.

JANE FONDA WELCOMES US BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, JOIN FONDA.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE, I'LL TELL YOU.

WATCHING THE PICTURES OF YOU WITH THE HANDCUFFS JUST BROUGHT BACK A HUGE AMOUNT OF MEMORIES AND HUGE AMOUNT OF HISTORY.

YOU'VE DEVOTED SO MUCH OF YOUR ADULT LIVE TO THIS KIND OF ACTIVISM.

WHAT SPECIFICALLY AND AT WHAT MOMENT DID YOU TRIGGER INTO THIS ACTION WHEREBY YOU GET UP FROM CALIFORNIA AND YOU'RE HOME AND YOU MOVE TO WASHINGTON TO DO THIS.

I CAN TELL YOU EXACTLY IT WAS LABOR DAY WEEKEND AND I WAS READING NAOMI KLEIN'S NEW BOOK CALLED 'ON FIRE, THE BURNING CASE FOR A GREEN NEW DEAL' AND I WAS HEARING GRETA THUNBERG, THE SWEDISH CLIMATE STRIKER, AND IT REALLY HIT ME HOW URGENT THIS ISSUE IS, AND THAT I WASN'T DOING ENOUGH.

I DRIVE AN ELECTRIC CAR.

I RECYCLE AND HAVE GOTTEN RID OF PLASTICS.THAT'S A GOOD STARTING.

IT'S NOT A GOOD FINISHING PLACE.

THIS IS A COLLECTIVE CRISIS AND REQUIRES COLLECTIVE ACTION, AND SO I DECIDED TO USE MY CELEBRITY TO TRY TO RAISE THE SENSE OF URGENCY, AND I MOVED TO WASHINGTON AND I'M GOING TO GET ARRESTED EVERY FRIDAY.

EVERY FRIDAY.

GRETA THUNBERG, WE'RE VERY PROUD OF, INTERVIEWED HER ON THIS SHOW AND NAOMI KLEIN ON THIS PROGRAM AS WELL AND LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU I THINK MENTIONED THAT THE NEW TYPE OF ARREST, THE PLASTIC TIES THAT YOU ARRESTED WITH A VERY DIFFERENT METAL HANDCUFFS THAT YOU ENJOYED IN PREVIOUS PROTESTS, AND THAT YOU ARE 82 OR SO, AND IT'S KIND OF DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE INTO THE BACK OF A POLICE VAN WITHOUT YOUR ARM.

THAT'S THE LEAST OF IT.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE SYRIAN CRISIS AND THE TERRIBLE SITUATION THAT HAS HAPPENED THERE.

THAT WAR, I AM TOLD, BEGAN BECAUSE OF THE TERRIBLE DROUGHT THAT HAPPENED THERE.

I MEAN, THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON IN THE WORLD AND OVER IT ALL IS THIS TICKING TIME BOMB.

THE INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON CLIMATE CRISIS TOLD US LAST YEAR THAT WE ONLY HAVE -- LAST YEAR THEY SAID 12 YEARS AND NOW IT'S 11 YEARS.

WE HAVE 11 YEARS LEFT TO TRY TO TURN THIS FOSSIL FUEL DISASTER AROUND SO THAT WE DON'T COMPLETELY PASS THE TIPPING POINT AND IT BECOMES UNTENABLE.

UNTENABLE TO GOVERN AND UNTENABLE TO HAVE A STABLE ECONOMY AND ANY KIND OF HUMAN RIGHTS OR ANYTHING.

IT'S JUST GOING TO BE ONE DISASTER ON TOP OF THE OTHER, BUT WE DO HAVE TIME.

WE HAVE TIME, AN IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE THAT PEOPLE IN EVERY COUNTRY ALL AROUND THE WORLD ORGANIZE AND MOBILIZE AND IF NECESSARY BRING GOVERNMENTS TO A HALT IF WE CAN'T MAKE THEM DO THE RIGHT THING.

I MEAN, IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE THIS RADICAL AND FUNDAMENTAL IF THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY HADN'T LIED TO US FOR 30 YEARS.

THEY KNEW 30 YEARS AGO THAT THEY WERE HURTING THE ENVIRONMENT, AND THEY KNEW WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS WERE AND THEY LIED AND HOODWINKED US.

IF WE HAD STARTED DOING WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE 30 YEARS AGO IT COULD HAVE BEEN AN INCREMENTAL TRANSITION AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, AND NOW IT'S -- IT'S -- THIS IS AN URGENT CRISIS, AND WE HAVE TO MOVE VERY, VERY FAST.

ALL THE WHILE TAKING GREAT CARE THAT THE FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES AND WORKERS WHO DEPEND ON THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY FOR THEIR LIVELIHOOD ARE GOING TO BE NOT JUST TRAINED FOR THE NEW JOBS BUT PAID UNION WAGES WITH BENEFITS AND OVERTIME AND SOCIAL SECURITY AND THAT EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO SUPPORT FAMILIES AND TO LIVE PROPERLY.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY SURE THAT THOSE WORKERS ARE TAKEN CARE OF.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU QUICKLY TO TALK ABOUT THE RADICAL NATURE OF THIS.YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, IT T HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN SO RADICAL IF, AND YOU SAID WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE REASONS.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU CAN REFLECT ON WHETHER THERE'S A DIFFERENCE TODAY BETWEEN HOW YOU WERE TREATED AND YOUR GENERATION OF ACTIVISTS.

WHETHER THEY WERE NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS OR WOMEN'S RIGHTS OR THE PEACE PROCESS DURING THE VIETNAM WAR, FOR ANTI-APARTHEID.L OF THOSE MAJORS FOR INSTANCE.

I'VE HAD EXTINCTION REBELLION ACTIVISTS ON THE PROGRAM.

THEY ARE GETTING ARRESTED AND TAKEN TO COURT IN A WAY THEY WEREN'T IN PREVIOUS YEARS.

THE COURT PROCESS IS DIFFERENT.

THEY ARE GETTING TROLLED ONLINE.

GRETA THUNBERG IS GETTING TROLLED IN PERSON AND DENIGRATED ONLINE.

I MEAN, THEY ARE BEING REALLY ATTACKED IN A VISCERAL WAY.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT HAS CHANGED, YOU KNOW, SINCE WHEN YOU WERE DOING IT AS A YOUNGER PERSON?

WHAT'S CHANGED IS -- WE'RE SPEAKING TO THE VERY FOUNDATIONS OF OUR ECONOMIC STRUCTURE.

YOU KNOW, OUR ECONOMY AND MUCH OF THE WORLD'S ECONOMY IS BASES ON FOSSIL FUEL AND WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS THAT HAS TO CHANGE.

CHANGE IS COMING WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT CHANGE IS COMING EITHER BY DISASTER OR BY PLAN, AND -- AND WHAT IS KIND OF BEAUTIFUL IS THAT WE NOW HAVE A PLAN, A VISION FOR HOW TO MOVE FORWARD AND SAVE OURSELVES.

IT'S CALLED A GREEN NEW DEAL.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I'M DOING WHAT I'M DOING IN WASHINGTON IS TO CALL ATTENTION TO THE GREEN NEW DEAL, WHAT IT MEANS AND WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO GET THIS TURNED INTO A REALITY, AND WHAT'S SO BEAUTIFUL ABOUT IT IS THAT IT'S A WIN-WIN SITUATION FOR EVERYBODY EXCEPT THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY, AND THEY ARE GOING TO FIGHT IT TOOTH-AND-NAIL, AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE BEING ARRESTED AND TAKEN TO COURT AND TREATED DIFFERENTLY IS BECAUSE WE ARE SAYING CAPITALISM THE WAY IT HAS BEEN WORKING FOR DECADES ISN'T GOING TO CONTINUE WORKING IF WE KEEP IT THE WAY IT IS.

WE CAN -- WE CAN MAKE THE CHANGES WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF CAPITALISM, BUT IT'S GOT TO BE TO CHANGED CAPITALISM, A REGULATED CAP TAPE.

AND A HUMANE CAPITALISM, AND OBVIOUSLY THE PEOPLE WHOSE WEALTH IS THREATENED BY THAT AND THEY ARE VERY, VERY, VERY POWERFUL AND THEY HAVE BOUGHT OFF A WHOLE LOST GOVERNMENT IN OUR COUNTRY AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

THEY ARE GOING TO FIGHT WITH EVERY SINGLE THING THAT THEY HAVE, AND THEY HAVE THE POWER.

THE ONLY THING IS THERE'S MORE US, AND SO WE HAVE TO BE VERY DETERMINED, VERY ORGANIZED, VERY PREPARED, UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE UP AGAINST AND NOT GIVE UP.

YOU KNOW, BACK IN THE '0s WHEN FDR HAD THE NEW DEAL IN THE UNITED STATES TO TRY TO SAVE AMERICA FROM THE TERRIBLE DEPRESSION.LE CALLED HIM A COMMT AND A SOCIALIST AND THEY WERE BANKERS THAT TRIED TO OVERTHROW THEM AND THE REASON THEY DID IT IS THAT PEOPLE WERE IN THE STREETS, AND HE KNEW THAT IF HEG A FULL-OUT REVOLUTION SO HE SLOWLY ROLLED OUT A GREEN NEW DEAL THAT TURNED OUT TO BE POPULAR WITH AVERAGE WORKING PEOPLE THAT IT WORKED AND WE GOT SOCIAL SECURITY AND MILLIONS OF JOBS AND -- AND ALL KINDS OF GREAT INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS AND THAT'S -- TAKE THE GREEN NEW DEAL ON STEROIDS.

IT'S GOING TO BE BIGGER.

IT'S GOING TO BE GREENER AND IT'S GOING TO BE FAIRER BECAUSE THE NEW DEAL LEFT OUT FARMERS AND WOMEN AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS, AND THE GREEN NEW DEAL WON'T DO THAT.

LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE ARE YOU IN WASHINGTON AND YOU'RE COMING TO US WITH A BACKGROUND OF THE UNITED STATES CAPITOL BEHIND YOU, AND HAVE THE CELEBRITY AND THE PROMINENCE AND RECORD TO ACTUALLY TALK TO THE PEOPLE IN POWER.

ARE YOU GOING TO BE DOING THAT?

AND WHO, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE PREACHING TO THE CONVERTED.

YOU KNOW THAT THE DEMOCRATS BELIEVE IN THIS.

THEY HAVE GOTTEN THIS PROPOSAL FOR A GREEN NEW DEAL.

MANY OF THE NEW CONGRESS WOMEN, PARTICULARLY THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT.

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU, JANE FONDA, CAN TARGET OR TALK TO, AND ARE YOU PLANNING TO?

YES, WE'RE GOING TO BE HAVING CONVERSATIONS ON THE HILL HAD.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON IS THE PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT INDIVIDUAL LIFE-STYLE CHOICES TO REDUCE CARBON FOOTPRINT IS ENOUGH.

WE WANT TO TAKE THOSE PEOPLE AND MOVE THEM INTO A MORE ACTIVE COLUMN.

THAT'S OUR TARGET FOR THESE ACTIONS THAT WE'RE DOING, BUT WE ARE GOING TO BE TALKING TO CONGRESS PEOPLE, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS -- YOU SEE, THIS IS GOING TO BE WON -- NOT NECESSARILY JUST THROUGH ELECTIONS BUT THROUGH MOBILIZATION AND CIVILIAN ACTION, BUT THIS -- THIS COMING ELECTION NEXT NOVEMBER IS OBVIOUSLY CRITICAL, SO WE'RE URGING PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR CLIMATE.

WE'RE TELLING PEOPLE DON'T VOTE FOR ANY CANDIDATE THAT DOESN'T SUPPORT THE GREEN NEW DEAL.

UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS AND WOULDN'T WANT TO IMPLEMENT STARTING ON DAY ONE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION, AND I'M NOT BRINGING THIS UP JUST TO BRING UP VIETNAM AGAIN OR TO BRING UP THAT PICTURE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IS CORRECTBUA LOT OF PEOPLE GET THEIR BACKS UP ABOUT -- THEY SAY DON'T LECTURE TO ME ABOUT MY LIFE-STYLE.

HAMBURGERS OR DRIVE A BIG FAT CAR OR DO WHATEVER THE HECK I WANT TO DO, HAVE THE AIR CONDITIONING ON SO HIGH, YOU KNOW, IT'S A CRAZE UNACCEPTABLE ABOUT VIETNAM YOU SAID IT HURTS ME AND IT WILL TO MY GRAVE THAT I MADE A HUGE, HUMAN MISTAKE THAT MADE A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT I WAS AGAINST THE SOLDIERS ABOUT, THAT FAMOUS PICTURE OF YOU ARE THE ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUN.

SO WHAT -- WHAT ARE YOU FACING -- WHAT SORT OF REACTION HAVE YOU HAD TO -- TO YOU NOW TAKING THIS PUBLIC STAND, AND WHAT CAN YOU SAY TO PEOPLE TODAY WHO ARE GETTING THEIR BACKS UP, SAYING DON'T YOU LECTURE ME ON HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE AND CHANGE MY LIFESTYLE?

I KNOW THAT THEY ARE OUT THERE, ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA, LAND OF INDIVIDUALISM WHICH IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS, BY THE WAY.

DON'T LIKE TO HEAR THINGS LIKE WE HAVE TO CHANGE A LOT OF WHAT NOW EXISTS IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT THE WHOLE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN FLOODED.

CALIFORNIA IS ON FIRE.

THE I MEAN, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

WE'RE EXPERIENCING IT RIGHT NOW, AND SO MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT'S AN URGENT CRISIS AND THAT WE HAVE TO BAND TOGETHER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

JANE, YOU TWEETED A PICTURE OVER THE WEEKEND OF YOU HAVING DINNER WITH SOME OF THE YOUNGER CLIMATE ACTIVISTS, AND YOU SAID IN D.C. A DINNER WITH THE YOUNG STUDENT, CLIMATE STRIKERS WHO SO INSPIRED ME, SUNRISE MOVEMENT, FRIDAY FOR FUTURE, THEY ARE SMART AND THEY ARE BRAVE.

I WANT YOU TO REFLECT ON THE YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY.

WE'VE SEEN WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

WE SEE HOW THEY GALVANIZE THE POLITICAL DEBATE.

WE SEE HOW THEY ARE NOT JUST IN THE STREETS AND THEY ARE SHOWING UP AT THE BALLOT BOX AS WELL AND SHIFTING THE TIDE RIGHT NOW.

ALSO WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE OF YOUR GENERATION SAYING I NEED TO BE IN SOLIDARITY WITH THEM BECAUSE I NEED TO LOOK THEM IN THE FACE AND BE ABLE TO SAY I DID MY PART.

WE'RE HEARING THAT AROUND VILLAGES AND TOWNS WHETHER IT'S HERE IN ENGLAND OR AMERICA, WHEREVER IT IS, THAT OLDER PEOPLE ARE BEING TAUGHT A THING OR TWO BY THEIR GRANDCHILDREN AND YOU TOOK ONE OF THEIR GRANDCHILDREN AND SHE WAS ARRESTED WITH YOU OVER THE WEEKEND.TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT PR EXPERIENCE.

I THINK THAT WHAT THE STUDENTS ARE DOING IS SO INSPIRING, YOU CAN'T HELP BUT WANT TO SAY YES.

WE GRANDMOTHERS, WE OLDER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO STAND NEXT TO YOU, LOCK ARMS AND TRY TO CREATE A FUTURE FOR YOU THAT -- THAT IS LIVABLE.MEAN, IT'S NO WONDER THT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BEING SO BRAVE AND STANDING UP.

THEY SEE THAT THEIR FUTURE IS BEING ROBBED, AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO?

WHAT SACRIFICES ARE WE GOING TO MAKE?

HOW WILLING WE BE TO STAND UP WITH THEM AND FIGHT FOR THEIR FUTURE, AND -- I'M GOING TO BE ARRESTED THE DAY I TURN 82, AND I'M DOING IT BECAUSE I WANT TO STAND WITH THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE.

I HAVE A 3-MONTH-OLD GRANDSON.

IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO MOVE TO I HAVE A GRANDSON THAT WAS JUST BORN AND I'M MISSING FOUR MONTHS OF HIS LIFE, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- BUT I THINK OF GRETA THUNBERG AND I THINK IT'S THE LEAST I CAN DO.

WELL, JANE FONDA.

GREAT TO SEE YOU OUT THERE, AS I SAID, STILL AT IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

ALWAYS GOOD TO TALK TO YOU, CHRISTIANE.

NOW, OUR NEXT GUEST THINKS HE MIGHT HAVE THE KEY TO REVIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM?

RAJ IS A HARVARD UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR AND IS USING BIG DATA TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO GIVE KIDS FROM DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUNDS BETTER CHANCES OF SUCCEEDING, FROM HIS OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF MOVING TO THE U.S. AT THE AGE OF 9.

HE'S MADE IT HIS MISSION TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO GIVE OTHER KIDS THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES THAT HE HAD.

WE STAT DOWN WITH HIM TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT MIGHT WORK AND THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF THE ONGOING INITIATIVE ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA.

IT'S CALLED CHASING THE DREAM.

SO YOU'RE WORK FOR SEVERAL YEARS HAS CRONICLED WHAT I WOULD SAY THE HORATIO ALGER STORY, PULLING YOURSELF UP BY THE BOT STRAPS AND WORKING HARD THAT THAT NOTION OF THE AMERICAN DREAM IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE BY THE DATA THAT YOU'VE LOOKED AT.

WHY IS THE AMERICAN DREAM AS WE'VE ALL BEEN LED TO BELIEVE IT?

WHY IS THAT FADING?

YEAH, SO TO START WITH THE FACTS, BACK IN THE 1940s AND 1950s.

VIRTUALLY ALL KIDS IN AMERICA WOULD GROW UP TO HAVE A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING THAN THEIR PARENTS DID SO CHILDREN BORN IN 1980.

90% OF THEM TO HAVE A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING FOR THEIR PARENTS AND IF YOU LOOK AT KIDS BORN IN THE 1980s MEASURING THEIR INCOMES, THAT NUMBER IS 50% AND IT'S AS 50-50 SHOT, AND THAT'S THE FADING OF THE AMERICAN DREAM IS A TREMENDOUS CONCERN FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE, SOCIALLY, POLITICALLY AND THERE ARE A VARIETY OF FACTORS THAT PLAY INTO WHAT'S DRIVING THAT TREND AT A MACRO ECONOMIC LEVEL, A LOT HAVE WAGE RATES AND INCOMES FOR THE MIDDLE OF MICK DISTRIBUTION BASICALLY HAVEN'T GONE UP OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS AND MOST OF THE ECONOMIC GROWTH IN AMERICA HAS GONE TO THE VERY, VERY TOP OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION.

YOU'VE KIND OF POINTED OUT THREE KIND OF BIG CATEGORIES OF WHERE YOU'RE BORN AND WHAT YOUR EDUCATION LIVE AND WHAT RACE YOU ARE HUGE DETERMINANTS AND WE DON'T LIKE TO THINK ABOUT, AND, AGAIN, WE'VE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE HAS AN EQUAL SHOT KIND OF STATUS WHERE THEY WERE BORN, BUT WHERE THEY WERE BORN DOWN TO THE ZIP CODE LEVEL AT CENNUS TRACK IS ENORMOUS.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, SO IT'S JUST ABOUT ABOUT THE MIDWEST AND THE EAST COAST AND THE SOUTHEAST.

IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT BLOCK-TO-BLOCK VARIATION WITHIN CITIES, AND IN THE MOST RECENT WORK WE'VE BEEN DEVELOPING AN OPPORTUNITY OUTLET WHICH ALLOWS TO YOU ZOOM IN TO SPECIFIC BLOCKS WITHIN CITIES AND LOOK AT KIDS CHANCES OF POVERTY ARE AT THE VERY GRANULAR LEVEL AND THE REMARKABLE FACT THAT YOU SEE.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLY SHARP DIFFERENCES IN CHILDREN'S CHANCES OF RISING OUT OF POVERTY AND AND THAT RAKE THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF SOCIAL MOBILITY IN THE WORLD AND THESE ARE OFTEN SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES AND COUNTRIES LIKE CANADA WHERE YOU SEE KIDS GROWING UP IN LOW-INCOME FAMILIES WHO HAVE GOOD ODDS OF RISING UP, AND THES DOWN THE ROAD SOME NEIGHBORHOODS, IF YOU LOOK AT THE SAME KIDS FROM LOW-INCOME FAMILIES, SAME BACKGROUNDS, THEIR CHANCES OF RISING UP LOOK LOWER THAN ANY COUNTRY FOR WHICH WE CURRENTLY HAVE DATA TO.

MOW THAT'S FASCINATING BECAUSE IT'S BOTH, YOU KNOW, A CHALLENGE GIVEN THE SCALE OF THIS PROBLEM, BUT IT'S ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT, BECAUSE IT MEANS THE ANSWER IN TERMS OF RESTORING THE AMERICAN DREAM IS NOT ABOUT GOING BACK TO THE PREVIOUS ERA OR LOOKING AT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF COUNTRIES.

IT'S OFTEN ABOUT LOOKING TWO MILES DOWN THE ROAD AND FIGURING OUT WHAT'S GOING ON THERE AND HOW YOU CAN REPLICATE THAT.

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS DATA.

NOT LIKE YOU'RE OUT THERE SERVING PEOPLE AND ASKING THEM THIS OR THAT.

WHERE IS THIS INFORMATION COMING, FROM AND HOW BIG IS IT?

WHAT'S THE SCALE?

SO THE MODERN ERA OF SOCIAL SCIENCE I THINK IS REALLY FUELED BY THE AVAIL ABILITY OF BIG MUCH AS WE ALL HERE ABOUT BIG DATA BEING USED IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, OUR VISIONING IS THAT SUCH DATA CAN BE USED TO TACKLE IMPORTANT SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC POLICY QUESTIONS, AND SO IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE A LOT OF THE DATA WE'RE WORKING WITH COMES FROM ANONYMOUS SOCIAL SECURITY DATA THAT ALLOWS US TO FOLLOW SAMPLE PEOPLE OVERTIME.

MANY OF THE STATISTICS WE'RE CONSTRUCTING ON CHILDREN RISING OUT OF POVERTY, ARE BASED ON TO MILLION KIDS, ALL KIDS BORN IN THE 1980s IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IT'S THAT SCOPE WHERE WE'RE ABLE TO FOLLOW 20 MILLION CHILDREN OVER A 30-YEAR PERIOD.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE PRIOR TO THEED A VENT OF THE MODERN INFORMATION AGE.

THAT'S WHAT'S ALLOWING US TO

SO WHEN IT COMES TO NEIGHBORHOODS AND LONG-TERM OUTCOMES, YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING, FOR EXAMPLE, VOUCHER PROGRAMS THAT HAVE EXISTED FOR A LONG TIME.UR PREVIOUS RESEARCH FOUND THAT THERE WASN'T A NET DIFFERENCE IF YOU JUST GAVE PEOPLE MONEY TO MOVE, AND THEN YOU DID KIND OF A DIFFERENT EXPERIMENT IN SEATTLE.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU TRIED.

THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROGRAMS IT IS THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO GIVE FAMILIES ACCESS TO HIGHER OPPORTUNITY AREAS WHERE THEY AND THEIR KIDS MIGHT THRIVE, BUT PUZZLINGLY WE SEE 80% OF FAMILIES WHO RECEIVED THESE HOUSING VOUCHERS STILL LIVE IN RELATIVELY HIGH POVERTY AND LOW OPPORTUNITY NEIGHBORHOODS, SO WHAT WE DID IN SEATTLE WAS A PILOT STUD ARE WHERE WE ASKED WHY AREN'T THE FAMILIES TAKING THE VOUCHERS AND GOING AND FINDING HOUSING IN THE AFFORDABLE AREAS WHERE WE THINK THE KIDS WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER CHANCE OF ESCAPING POVERTY.

IS IT BECAUSE OF PREFERENCES SO MAYBE YOU WANT TO STAY IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE YOU CURRENTLY LIVE BECAUSE IT'S CLOSE TO YOUR FAMILY AND JOB OF THE MIGHT BE MANY GOOD REASONS WHY YOU WANT TO STAY IN THE AREAS, OR IS THE DEGREE OF SEGREGATION THAT WE'RE SEEING IN MANY OF THESE CITIES DRIVEN BY SOME SORT OF BARRIERS WHERE FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, MIGHT NOT HAVE ASSISTANCE IN THE SEARCH PROCESS AND MIGHT NOT HAVE THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED SO WE DID A PILOT WHERE WE, FOR A RANDOMLY SELECTED SET OF FAMILIES, 1,000 FAMILIES INVOLVED IN SEATTLE, APPLIED THROUGH THE REGULAR PROCESS FOR A HOUSING VOUCHER.LF OF THEM RA.

WE GAVE THESE ADDITIONAL SERVICES TO HELP THEM -- HELP EASE THE SEARCH PROCESS, BASICALLY REMOVE SOME OF THOSE BARRIERS AND IDENTIFY LANDLORDS WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO RENT TO YOU IN HIGH-OPPORTUNITY NEIGHBORHOODS AND GIVE YOU INFORMATION ABOUT WHERE THOSEODA LITTLE BIT OF ASSISTANCE AND SAY HERE'S A UNIT CAN YOU GO CHECK OUT AND SO FORTH, AND WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT LITTLE BIT OF ASSISTANCE UP FRONT WHICH ONLY INCREASES THE TOTAL PROGRAM UP FRONT COST BY SOMETHING LIKE 2% THAT.

DRAMATICALLY SHIFTS WHERE FAMILIES CHOOSE TO LEVEL.

IN THE CONTROL GROUP 15% OF FAMILIES LIVE IN THE HIGH OPPORTUNITY NEIGHBORHOODS WITHIN SEATTLE AND THE TREATMENT GROUP THAT JUMPS UP TO 55% OR 60%, SO THE MAJORITY OF FAMILIES ARE NOW CHOOSING TO LIVE IN NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE WE ESTIMATE THAT THEIR KIDS WILL GO ON TO EARN AN ADDITIONAL $200,000 OVER THEIR LIFETIMES AS A RESULT OF THAT HAVE SIMPLE MOVE ABOUT FIVE, TEN MILES AWAY FROM WHERE THEY WERE LIVING BEFORE.

YOU'RE ALSO MAKING A DISTINCTION AND CALLING THESE HIGH OPPORTUNITY ZONES, NOT NECESSARILY LOW POVERTY ZONES.

YES.

WHAT CONSTITUTES A HIGH OPPORTUNITY ZONE?

YES, EXACTLY AND THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

WHAT WE'RE DEFINING AS A HIGH OPPORTUNITY ZONE IS A PLACE WHERE WE SEE IN THE DATA KIDS WHO GROW UP THERE END UP HAVING HIGH RATES OF UPWARD MOBILITY.

SO IT'S AN OUTCOME-BASED APPROACH.

ASKING IN A VERY DIRECT WAY, YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY YOU'RE A PARENT DECIDING WHERE TO LIVE.

SIMPLE WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IS WHERE HAVE I SEEN KIDS IN THE PAST WHO GREW UP IN THESE WHERE HAVE KIDS GONE ON TO DO WELL IN TERMS OF MAYBE HAVING A HIGH RATE OF ATTENDING CLEM, HIGH LEVEL OF, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON?

WHERE DO WE SEE GOOD OUTCOMES?

THAT COULD BE RELATED TO FACTORS LIKE HAVING LOWER POVERTY RATES.

FACTORS LIKE HAVING BETTER SCHOOLS AND SO FORTH, BUT WHAT'S SO POWERFUL ABOUT THE DATA IS WE DON'T NEED TO RELAY ON PROXIES FOR WHAT MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT PREDICT RATES OF UPWARD MOBILITY.AN KIND OF DIRECTLY MEE THING THAT I THINK MATTERS TO MANY OF US.

WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM?

UP WITH OF THE CITIES THAT YOU LOOKED AT, CHICAGO, FOR EXAMPLE.

LET'S SAY THERE'S A WHITE KID AND BLACK KID GROWING UP FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS IN A MORE DISTRESSED SNABD, BUT THE ECONOMIC OUTCOMES ARE GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES WE SEE CORRELATION.

YOU'RE SAYING STRAIGHT UP CAUSATION, THAT'S A FACTOR HOLDING FOR ALL OTHER THINGS.

YOU CAN'T OVERSTATE THE IMPORTANCE OF RACE AND ECONOMIC MOBILITY, SO, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK THAT CLASS IS A DOMINANT FACTOR AND MAYBE CONDITIONAL ON YOUR INCOME CLASS AND RACE IS SECONDARY IMPORTANCE.

WE'VE SEEN WHAT DATA HAS BEEN COVERING IN THE U.S. POPULATION, TAKE A BLACK KID, WHITE KID, NOT JUST IN CHICAGO BUT ANYWHERE IN THE U.S. GROWING UP IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD AND FAMILIES AND THE SAME WEALTH LEVEL, AND THINK OF AS MANY THINGS AS YOU CAN TO MAKE THE TWO FAMILIES ACCEPTABLE EXCEPT FOR THE RACE DIMENSION AND YOU SEE VASTLY DIFFERENT CHANCES OF UPWARD MOBILITY AND SPECIFICALLY FOR BOYS, SO THERE ARE BIG DIFFERENCES IN RATES OF MOBILITY FOR BLACK BOYS RELATIVE TO WHITE BOYS AND MUCH LOWER CHANCES OF CLIMBING OUT OF POVERTY, BUT FOR BLACK WOMEN YOUR ODDS OF RISING UP, CONTROLLING FOR YOUR PARENT'S ECONOMIC IS ABOUT THE SAME AS FOR WHITE WOMEN GROWING UP IN LOW-INCOME FAMILIES SO THERE'S A GENDER BIRACE INTERSECTIONALITY BUT THERE ARE MEN FACING CHALLENGESING AND RISING UP.

WHAT'S THE BIGGEST POSSIBLE INFLUENCE TO GIVE A YOUNG BLACK BOY A SHOT?

YEAH.

YOU MIGHT NATURALLY THINK OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND WE SEE INCREDIBLE RATES OF HIGH INCARCERATION FOR BLACK MEN GROWING UP IN VERY LOW-INCOME THAT'S ONE OF THE TRAGIC FEATURES AND THE CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT COULD BE ONE ASPECT THINKING ABOUT HOW YOU REDUCE INTERACTIONS WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

THAT COULD INVOLVE THINGS WITH SENTENCING LAWS AND SO FORTH AND IT COULD ALSO INVOLVE CHILDREN EARLIER ON IN THE CHILD DEVELOPMENT PROCESS, ANOTHER STRONG CRITIC WHERE WE FIND IS THE NUMBER OF BLACK FATHERS IN A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD IS VERY PREDICTIVE OF PLAQUE MEN'S IF YOU GROW UP IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE MORE BLACK FATHERS ARE PRESENT, WE SEE THAT BLACK BOYS HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER OUTCOMES AND INTERESTINGLY THERE'S NO CORRELATION WITH THE OUTCOMES OF BLACK WOMEN OR WHITE WOMEN AND WYATT BOYS, SO IT'S SOMETHING VERY SPECIFIC, A PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION IS THAT THIS IS ABOUT MENTORS, FOR EXAMPLE, SO YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE FOLLOWING.

EXACTLY.

A ROLE MODEL, SOMEBODY WHOSE CAREER PATHWAY YOU CAN FOLLOW OF YOUR GENDER AND SOMEONE WHO LOOKS LIKE YOU, YOU CAN KIND OF FOLLOW IN THEIR FOOTSTEPS.

AND IF YOU'RE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD AND THERE IS A CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT HAS HAD OLDER BLACK MEN THAT YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO LOOK UP, THERE YOU ARE HAVING A LOWER OUTCOME AND THE CYCLE.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I THINK THESE THINGS, THERE'S LOTS OF FEEDBACK GROUPS HERE WHERE YOU INTERVENE IN ONE PART OF THE SYSTEM AND MIGHT IN THE NEXT GENERATION CREATE SORT OF A VIRTUOUS CYCLE OR VICIOUS CYCLE.

YOUR EDUCATION HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF THE WAYS THAT PEOPLE SAY THIS WILL BE THE OPPORTUNITY. CAN GET MYSELF TO , I KNOW I'M GOING TO MAKE IT OUT OF THIS PARTICULAR STATION IN LIFE AND I'M GOING TO HAVE THIS, AND YOU HAVE LOOKED AT ACCESS TO SCHOOLS, OUTCOMES FROM SCHOOLS, AND THE MOBILITY RATES WITHIN SCHOOLS.

WHAT DO THE NUMBERS SHOW?

IS COLLEGE THE WAY OUT OF WHERE YOU ARE?

SO I THINK THERE'S TRUTH IN THAT AS AN ASPIRATION?

AND COLLEGES ARE AS SEGREGATED IN AMERICA AS NEIGHBORHOODS, ARE SO, IN OTHER WORDS, IF I'M A KID FROM A HIGH-INCOME FAMILY AND MY ODDS OF MEETING A KID FROM A LOWER INCOME FAMILY ARE JUST THE SAME AS MEETING A KID FROM A LOWER INCOME FAMILY AND THE COLLEGE THAT I ATTEND, SO THE COLLEGES THAT KIDS FROM HIGH-INCOME FAMILIES ATTEND ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE COLLEGES THAT KIDS FROM POORER FAMILIES ATTEND AND UNFORTUNATELY THE COLLEGES THAT HIGHER INCOME FAMILIES ATTEND TEND TO BE THE MORE SELECTIVE ONES, THE ELITE PRIVATE COLLEGES AND THE STATE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, ANN ARBOR OR UC BERKELEY AND THOSE ARE INSTITUTIONS WHERE WE SEE TERRIFIC OUTCOMES FOR CHILDREN.

KIDS WHO GRADUATE FROM THERE GO ON, PERHAPS NOT SURPRISINGLY, TO HAVE HIGH LEVELS OF EARNINGS AND SO FORTH, BUT THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW LOW-INCOME KIDS AT PLACES LIKE HARVARD, YALE, PRINCETON.

THERE'S A RECENT STORY HEADLINE THAT I JUST REMEMBER READING THE OTHER DAY.

IT SAID 43% OF WHITE STUDENTS THAT HARVARD ADMITS ARE LEGACIES, JOCKS OR THE KIDS OF DONORS AND FACULTY.

LOOK, I MEAN, I'M A HARVARD PROFESSOR, RIGHT, SO I RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE TRADE-OFFS THAT INSTITUTIONS LIKE HARVARD MAKE IN ORDER TO SUPPORT RESEARCH AND IN ORDER TO SUPPORT MANY DIFFERENT MISSIONS.

RIGHT.

BUT I THINK AT SOME POINT WE ARE AS AN INSTITUTION AT HARVARD AND IN THE UNITED STATES GOING HAVE TO CONFRONT HAVE A VERY DIRECT WAY WHAT HOUR MISSION IS, AND IF IT'S TO CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIAL MOBILE, I THINK ONE NEED TO THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT THE TRADE-OFFS AND THE TYPES OF POLICIES YOU JUST DESCRIBED.

SPEAKING OF POLICIES RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST ON THE DEMOCRATIC CAMPAIGN TRAIL, WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT DIFFERENT VARIATIONS OF WIPING OUT STUDENT DEBT OR TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SOLVE ISSUES LIKE ANDREW YANG HAS A PACIC INCOME PLAN.

SOMEBODY, WHOEVER IS PRESIDENT GETS THEIR HANDS ON THE ECONOMIC LEVERS AND IS ABLE TO PULL SOME OF THESE SWITCHES, WOULD THEY HAVE AN IMPACT?

SO LET'S TAKE EACH OF THOSE IN TURN.

SO SOMETHING -- I FEIGNED SOME OF THESE POLICY INSTRUMENTS ARE A BIT BLUNT SO WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT FREE COLLEGE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT -- THAT SOUNDS GOOD AND I THINK POTENTIALLY MOVES IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT AS IN MANY OTHER SETTINGS WE FIND THAT THERE'S TREMENDOUS VARIATION ACROSS COLLEGES IN TERMS OF THEIR IMPACTS ON KID OUTCOMES SO I THINK A SOLUTION LIKE WE JUST NEED TO MAKE ALL COLLEGES FREE IS A BIT TOO GRUFF.

WE NEED TO PROVIDE GREATER ACCESS TO THE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE REALLY PROPELLING KIDS UPWARD AND WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO IMPROVEN OUTCOMES IN THE INSTITUTIONS THAT AREN'T DOING AS WELL AND I THINK THAT MESSAGE GOES NOT JUST FOR HIGHER INSTITUTIONS OF EDUCATION BUT ALL OF THE VARIOUS PILLARS OF OUR SOCIETY THAT TRAY TO CREATE UPWARD MOBILITY FROM THE K THROUGH 12 ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TO VARIOUS OTHER PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE FROM HOUSING VOUCHERS LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT TO WELFARE PROGRAMS, DESIGNING THEM IN WAYS THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY SUPPORTING THE SPECIFIC PROGRAMS THAT CREATE UPWARD MOBILITY RATHER THAN A BROAD BRUSH THING.

I KNOW YOU HAVEN'T SORT OF TAKEN -- YOU HAVEN'T WORKED FOR A CAMPAIGN.

YOU HAVEN'T WORKED FOR AN ADMINISTRATION AND PEOPLE COME TO YOU AND SAY, HEY, LISTEN, CAN YOU BE MY ECONOMIC POLICY ADVISER OR DO 'X' OR 'Y.'

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING IN THE NEXT FIVE OR TEN YEARS.

THIS IS THE DATA SET THAT YOU'VS YOU'VE STARTED TO TEASE OUT OF WHAT OTHER LINES OF INQUIRY WITH YOU INTRIGUED BY NOW?

WELL, WHAT I WANT TO USE THE DATA FOR IS TO DEFINE IN A SCIENTIFIC WAY ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION OF HOW WE CAN INCREASE A QUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA.

SO WHAT I LIKE ABOUT STUDYING EVEN IN THIS VERY POLITICALLY PARTISAN TIME ONE THAT PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE CAN EMBRACE, AND I THINK EVERYONE IN AMERICA BELIEVES IN EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY NO MATTER YOUR BACKXWROUPD OR WHERE YOU CAME FROM, AT LEAST AS AN ABSTRACT IDEAL TO AIM FOR.

PART.

REASON MYSELF I DON'T GET DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN PARTISAN POLITICS IS I WANT TO TAKE AN APOLITICAL SCIENTIFIC STANCE TO ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS, AND I THINK WE CAN IDENTIFY THINGS LIKE BETTER WAYS TO DESIGN OUR AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROGRAMS, PETTER WAYS TO DESIGN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEMS AND WAYS TO FINANCE HIGHER EDUCATION THAT WILL LEAD TO HIGHER LEVELS OF UPWARD MOBILITY.THINK WE CAN SYSTEMATIO DOWN THE LIST AND KIND OF UNDERSTAND THE RECIPE FOR HIGHER RATES OF UPWARD MOBILITY IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS AND REPLICATE THAT THROUGHOUT UNITED STATES.

IN A WAY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SORT OF DESEGREGATING THE WAYS THAT WE HAVE BROKEN UP BY GEOGRAPHY, BY EDUCATION, BY RACE.

IT'S A BIG -- BIG THING TO TACKLE.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY A BIG THING TO TACKLE AND LOY THE OF THESE THINGS, THIS COMES BACK TOTS FOODBACK LOOPS WHERE THEY CAN BUILD ON EACH OTHER.

IN ONE GENERATION IF YOU FIGURE OUT HOW TO HELP SOME KIDS RISE UP, THAT MIGHT REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF SEGREGATION IN THE NEXT GENERATION WHICH ITSELF LEADS TO BETTER OPPORTUNITIES FOR KIDS FROM LOWER INCOME FAMILIES.

THE ONE PLACE WHERE I WOULD HESITATE ON THAT CONCLUSION IS COMING BACK TO RACE, AND SO ONE ASPECT THAT WEAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT YET BUT I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT IN THE CONTEXT OF RACE IS EVEN IF YOU LOOK AT KIDS FROM THE MOST AFFLUENT FAMILIES, MY EXPECTATION WHEN WE WERE DOING THIS RESEARCH WAS THAT AT SOME POINT RACE WOULD BECOME UNIMPORTANT.

IF YOU WERE FROM THE RICHEST FAMILIES IN AMERICA.

MAYBE RACE WOULD START TO PLAY A SECONDARY ROLE.

IF YOU WENT TO THE BEST SKOOMS AND GREW UP IN THE BEST NEIGHBORHOODS AND SO FORTH, AND A REALLY DISAPPOINTING FINDING IN THE DATA FOR ME WAS THAT THAT'S TOTALLY FALSE.

EVEN IF YOU GREW UP IN A FAMILY IN THE TOP 1% OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION, YOU GO TO THE BEST SCHOOLS IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE LIVING IN THE BEST NEIGHBORHOODS AND GROWING UP IN A TWO-PARENT FAMILY WITH QUITE A BIT OF WEALTH.

YOU STILL SEE BLACK BOYS WHO GREW UP IN THOSE FAMILIES HAVE MUCH HIGHER CHANCES OF FALLING DOWN THE INCOME LADDER THAN WHITE BOYS DO.

WHITE BOYS WHO GROW UP IN AFFLUENT WHITE FAMILIES TEND TO REMAIN AT THE TOP OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION IN THE NEXT GENERATION BUT BLACK MEN DUE TO VARIOUS STRUCTURAL FORCES FALL DOWN TO THE MIDDLE CLASS OR EVEN THE BOTTOM OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION. THINK IS QUITE DISTRESSING BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, OFTEN WE FOCUS ON HOW CAN WE HELP KIDS FROM DISADVANTAGED WE'VE GOT THIS CONSTANTBUT IF TREADMILL DOWNWARD PRESIDENT BUSH OUR WE'RE NEVER GOING TO ACTUALLY NARROW BLACK/WHITE DISPARITIES IN THE UNITED STATES UNLESS WE ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THE UP EVERY MIDDLE CLASS AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN HELP THEM STAY THERE.

THIS IS ONE WHERE I THINK WE NEED TO THINK HARD ABOUT HOW TO FIX THAT TREADMILL.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

AND AN UPHILL STRUGGLE TO BE SURE.

BEFORE WE GO, WE WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT A SPECIAL INTERVIEW.

MY CONVERSATION WITH ONE OF THE THE BEST LOVED ARTONS, GRAYSON PERRY WHO IS BACK WITH A NEW EXHIBITION HERE IN LONDON.

PERRY'S ART IS ALSO POLITICAL AND DEFLS INTO THE BIG ISSUES OF OUR TIME INCLUDING THE ISSUE OF EMPATHY, THESE POLARIZED DAYS AND HE'S BEEN SHOOTING A TELEVISION SERIES ABOUT THIS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE SPOKE ABOUT IT.

IN THIS AGE OF POLARIZATION AND DIVISION IN SOCIETY WE'VE ALL GOT TO COME TO TERMS AND HAVE A BIT OF EMPATHY FOR THE OTHER SIDE AND YOU MIGHT FIND SOME OF THEIR OPINIONS, BUT NOBODY IS REALLY AS BLACK AND WHITE THAT TWITTER WOULD MAKE YOU THINK.

I'VE BEEN SHOOTING A TV SERIES IN THE STATES ABOUT THESE ISSUES, AND THE MINUTE YOU TALK TO ANYBODY, YOU KNOW THAT, CHRISTIANE, YOU KNOW, THE MINUTE YOU TALK TO THE PERSON, YOU'VE GOT A FLESH AND BLOOD PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU AND THEIR NUANCE AND COMPLEX AND IT'S DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU MIGHT LIKE THEM AND YET THEY HOLD ABHORRENT VIEWS AND IT'S TRICKY, AND THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN.

THEY NEED TO HAVE A BIT OF EMPATHY AND MAKE A LEAP INTO WHY PEOPLE VOTE FOR TRUMP.

FOLLOW ME, HARI AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS AND DO JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.