Rick Perlstein on the History Behind the Impeachment Inquiry

AMERICA'S, OF COURSE, NO STRANGER TO IMPEACHMENT AGAINST A PRESIDENT BUT IS THIS ONE DIFFERENT?

HISTORIAN RICK CARLSTEEN CALLED THE CHRONICLE EXTRAORDINAIRE AND OW AUTHOR OF 'NIXON LAND' AND ASKS, WHAT CAN THE NIXON AND CLINTON SCANDALS TELL US ABOUT THE HEARINGS WE'RE CURRENTLY WITNESSING?

SAT DOWN WITH OUR CONTRIBUTOR ALLISON STEWART TO PROVIDE A HISTORIC LAND AND MUCH NEEDED PERSPECTIVE TO THE ONGOING IMPEACHMENT HEARING.

RICK PERLSTEIN, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT PRESIDENCY, EVERYTHING IS SO VERY UNPRECEDENTED, HOW SHOULD WE BE LOOKING AT THE HEARINGS?

SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THEM IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN WE'VE BEEN CONDITIONED TO THINK ABOUT BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THE NIXON HEARINGS AND THE CLINTON HEARINGS?

ONE OF THE BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN WHAT RICHARD NIXON WAS UP TO IN 1972, 1973 AND 1974 AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS UP TO IS THAT WATERGATE WAS REALLY ABOUT RICHARD NIXON TRYING TO HIDE EVIDENCE.

I MEAN, THERE WAS A BURGLARY.

THE BURGLARS WERE PAID OFF AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY, THE BURGLARS BASICALLY PERJURED THEMSELVES AND HAD PROMISES OF CLEMENCY AND EVENTUALLY CAME OUT A LOT OF THIS STUFF WAS ON TAPE AND NIXON WAS DESPERATE FOR THOSE TAPES NOT TO BE EXPOSED.

THE MOST DRAMATIC MOMENT WE REMEMBER FROM THE WATERGATE HEARINGS WAS THE SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE WHEN THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR SAID YOU HAVE TO TURN THESE TAPES OVER AND NIXON FIRED THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, SO TRYING TO HIDE EVIDENCE.

TRUMP, ON THE OTHER HAND, PERFECTLY WILLING TO REVEAL EVIDENCE, PERFECTLY WILLING TO PUBLICIZE THE PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT AND STRIKINGLY ENOUGH WILLING TO BASICALLY ADMIT TO WHAT HE'S ACCUSED OF IN PUBLIC AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THE REASON THAT'S SO MUCH MORE FRIGHTENING THAN WHAT NIXON DID IS BECAUSE NIXON THOUGHT IF THE EVIDENCE CAME OUT, HE WOULD BE JUDGED GUILTY AND HAVE TO LEAVE OFFICE.

TRUMP KNOWS EVEN WITH THE EVIDENCE OUT, HE'LL STILL HAVE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE ON THE GROUND AND PUBLIC OFFICIALS WHO WILL NOT ADMIT HE DID ANYTHING WRONG AND NO INTENTION OF EVER LEAVING OFFICE.

SO THAT'S A REAL DISTINCTION AND MORE SYSTEMIC DISTINCTION.

IT SPEAKS TO THE RISE OF AN ENTIRE POLITICAL PARTY, NOT JUST A BAD ACTOR.

DON'T FORGET THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY BIPARTISAN AFFAIR AND EVEN THE DEMOCRATS IN CHARGE OF IT, SAM IRVING, THE NORTH CAROLINA DEMOCRAT WHO BASICALLY RAN THE SELECT COMMITTEE WITH THESE VERY DRAMATIC TELEVISED HEARINGS IN THE SUMMER OF 1973.

HE WAS THE DEMOCRAT WHO VOTED WITH RICHARD NIXON THE MOST OF ANY DEMOCRATS.

SO PEOPLE WERE REALLY WILLING TO PUSH ASIDE THEIR POLITICAL LOYALTIES IN SERVICE OF THEIR OATH OF OFFICE.

I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME CLICHES WHICH ARE TRUE AND ONE OFTEN IS IT'S THE COVER-UP, NOT THE CRIME.

SO YOU MADE THE POINT ABOUT NIXON.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS, THE HEARINGS ABOUT OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, ABUSE OF POWER, CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS.

CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED FOR PERJURY FOR OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE.

SO DO YOU THINK, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE IDEA THIS, THERE'S AN ALLEGED COVER-UP ELEMENT TO THIS OF THESE TRANSCRIPTS BEING SENT TO SOME SERVER SOMEWHERE SO THEY WOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE DISCOVERED.

RIGHT, THAT'S ONE ELEMENT.

JUST ABOUT THE CALL AND THE FAVOR?

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT PRIVY TO THE DEMOCRATS' DELIBERATIONS BUT IT DOES SEEM VERY STRIKING THAT, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE IN MIND YET, BUT IT DOES SEEM STRIKING THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO KEEP THIS BRIEF AS NARROW AS POSSIBLE.

WATERGATE WAS VERY DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THERE WAS A COMMITMENT TO BASICALLY BUILD A CASE AGAINST THE NIXON PRESIDENCY ITSELF.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY FINALLY HAD THE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS IN THE HOUSE IN 1974, A YEAR AFTER THE SENATE WATERGATE HEARINGS ON TV, THEY HAD LIKE SIX OR SEVEN DIFFERENT TASK FORCES, LOOKING AT ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

LOOKING AT ILLEGAL BOMBING OF CAMBODIA.

THEY WERE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN DONATIONS IN EXCHANGE FOR PRICE SUPPORTS FROM THE MILL INDUSTRY AND PEOPLE WERE SO GUNG HO TO FIND MALFEASANCE IN THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION.

ONE GUY NAMED LOWELL FUNDED HIS OWN INVESTIGATORY STAFF AND ALL THROUGH THE HEARINGS, EVERY TIME SOMETHING NEW WAS DISCOVERED, EVERY TIME A NEW AVENUE WAS OPENED UP, IT SEEMED TO REVEAL MORE MALFEASANCE.

IT WAS A METASTASIZING INVESTIGATION.

SO BY THE TIME IT WAS OVER, PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO GRASP THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION AS ITS ENTIRETY, THAT IT WAS ROTTEN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM.

AND THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM THIS IDEA THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO MAKE THIS VERY SIMPLE STORY ABOUT THIS ONE PHONE CALL AND THIS ONE ACT OF MALFEASANCE AND NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP PAYING OFF FOREIGN STARS AND VIOLATING LAWS AND NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT CHILDREN IN CAGES AND THE SUPREME COURT CASE WHICH HE ENDED THE DACCA PROGRAM IN WAYS THAT WERE HIGHLY IRREGULAR.

YOU COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON AND THE WAY NANCY PELOSI AND ADAM SHIFF HAVE CHOSEN TO DO THIS SEEMS TO BE A VERY KIND OF DISCIPLINED TIGHT STORY.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE SIMILARITIES CULTURALLY BETWEEN WHAT WAS GOING ON AROUND THE NIXON HEARINGS AND WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THE TRUMP HEARINGS?

I SEE LOTS OF DIFFERENCES.

YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND IN 1973, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS BEGINNING TO FADE, YOU HAD MUCH MORE TRUST IN THE MAJOR INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICAN LIFE.

YOU HAD THE VIETNAM WAR AND YOU HAD SEEN WHAT WAS CALLED THE CREDIBILITY GAP, ON THE PART OF PRESIDENT LYNDON JOHNSON.

PEOPLE SAID, WE NOMINATED THIS BOY SCOUT, RICHARD NIXON WHO WOULD NEVER SWEAR AND NEVER TELL A LIE.

THE CANDIDATE OF MIDDLE AMERICA, WE CALL THE SILENT MAJORITY, AND HE'S GOING TO PUT IT ON THE PATH AND MAYBE END THE VIETNAM WAR.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY WERE VOTING FOR NIXON IN ORDER TO END THE VIETNAM WAR AND ONCE IT CAME OUT, AND AGAIN, THESE TELEVISED HEARINGS THAT WERE EXTREMELY MELODRAMATIC, IT WAS BASICALLY LIKE A MOB DEN.

BRIBES, PASSING AROUND MONEY IN BAGS AND TELEPHONE BOOTHS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

I THINK THAT KIND OF DISILLUSIONMENT WITH OUR LEADERS WAS SOMETHING WE CAN NEVER EXPERIENCE AGAIN BECAUSE WE'VE KIND OF ALREADY LOST THAT INNOCENCE.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF TRUST IN THE PRESIDENT AND IN THE PRESIDENCY.

AND OF COURSE, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF OTHER DIFFERENCES, THE FACT THAT YOU HAD THE THREE NETWORKS AND MUCH FEWER SOURCES OF INFORMATION AND THAT THE KIND OF STORIES, ONE HEARD ABOUT SOCIETY WERE MUCH MORE LIMITED, RIGHT?

IT WAS NOT AS PLURALISTIC.

SO THAT WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

I THINK THE SIMILARITY IS, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT BECOMES ALMOST A LITMUS TEST FOR PROFOUND DIVISIONS IN HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD, THAT BASICALLY YOU COULD DIVIDE THE COUNTRY IN TWO BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THAT RICHARD NIXON WAS AN EXAMPLE OF ALL THAT WAS GOOD AND TRUE, A LARGE GROUP THAT GOT SMALLER AND SMALLER BUT STILL WAS AROUND 30% JUST LIKE FOR TRUMP NOW AND ANOTHER GROUP THAT THOUGHT RICHARD NIXON WAS THE EXEMPLAR OF ALL THAT WAS FOUL AND GROSS AND OFF THE TRACK WITH AMERICAN LIFE AND CERTAINLY, THAT'S THE CASE WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I WANT TO ASK ANOTHER CULTURAL QUESTION.

AFTER NIXON RESIGNED, CONSERVATIVES WERE ABLE TO TAKE THE WATERGATE, THE GATE PART OF IT, THE SUFFIX AND USE IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

EVERYTHING BECAME A GATE.

SO I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK THIS HAS BECOME TRANSCRIPTGATE FOR THE REPUBLICANS OR UKRAINEGATE FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

MAYBE WE'RE ALL GATED OUT?

I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT REALLY SPEAKS TO THE LACK OF SPECIFICATION THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE SHOWN IN TURNING THIS INTO A STICKY PUBLIC NARRATIVE.

THE CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS ON TELEVISION HAVE BEEN POLITICAL THEATRE.

THE McCARTHY HEARINGS WERE ON TV, THAT WAS POLITICAL THEATRE.

WHEN THERE ARE MOB HEARINGS IN THE 1950s, THAT WAS POLITICAL THEATRE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN SENATOR FULBRIGHT HAD VIETNAM HEARINGS IN 1966, THAT WAS SUCH AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL THEATRE, LYNDON JOHNSON SAID TURN THIS OFF, PUT IT BACK ON THE RERUN.

EVER SINCE THE '70s, THE WHOLE GATE THING WAS THE BRILLIANT STRATAGEM OF ONE FIGURE, WILLIAM SAPPHIRE, WHO HAD BEEN A NIXON SPEECH-WRITER AND BEFORE HE WAS A NIXON SPEECH WRITER, HE WAS A PUBLIC RELATIONS PROFESSIONAL.

HE WAS THE GUY IN CHARGE OF, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE THAT A COMPANY GOT GOOD PRESS AND HE ACTUALLY WHERE A BOOK ABOUT HOW TO MANIPULATE USING THE MEDIA IN THE EARLY 1960s THAT I READ AND IT'S VERY FASCINATING.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS HE WAS ABLE TO DO, SUBSEQUENTLY, HE BECAME A 'NEW YORK TIMES' COLUMNIST AND THAT, BY THE WAY, WAS THE PRODUCT OF A VERY SOPHISTICATED PUBLIC RELATIONS CAMPAIGN BY RICHARD NIXON IN WHICH HE BASICALLY WENT TO THE MEDIA, HE WENT TO THE NEWSPAPERS, HE WENT TO THE TV STATIONS AND HE SAID, HERE'S A LIBERAL BIAS IN THE MEDIA AND HE THREATENED THEM.

HE SPECIFICALLY THREATENED THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WASHINGTON POST, SAYING UNLESS THEY WERE FAIRER TO HIM, HE WOULD TAKE AWAY THEIR BROADCAST LICENSES.

THAT WAS ONE EXAMPLE OF MALFEASANCE, RIGHT?

BUT THAT WAS WHAT CAUSED A LOT OF NEWSPAPERS TO VERY CONSCIOUSLY HIRE MORE CONSERVATIVE AND NIXON-FRIENDLY COLUMNISTS AND WILLIAM SAPPHIRE WAS ONE OF THEM.

JIMM HE TRIED TO DISCREDIT PRESIDENT CARTER AND ONE OF THE WAYS HE DID IT IS HE WOULD AFFIX THE WORD GATE TO THESE SCANDALS.

KOREAGATE.

HE HAD A BUDGET DIRECTOR WHO WAS HIS BEST FRIEND WHO GOT INVOLVED IN SOME FINANCIAL SHENANIGANS AND IT WAS LANCEGATE AND THAT WAS HIS WAY OF KIND OF TROLLING THE REST OF THE PRESS BUT PART OF IT IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT REALLY GAME PLANNED IT IN A WAY TO MAKE IT STICKY IN THIS MEDIA ERA.

YOU WROTE THIS GREAT, REALLY INTERESTING SENTENCE.

TRUE PATRIOTISM TAKES RISKS AND JUSTICE REQUIRES DISRUPTION.

THAT'S RIGHT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT NANCY PELOSI WHO'S DONE SOME GREAT THINGS OVER THE YEARS AND I RESPECT HER A HECK OF A LOT HAS SAID IS THAT SHE, WHEN SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, MAYBE TRUMP WOULD JUST IMPEACH HIMSELF AND WE DIDN'T WANT TO PUSH THIS THING, THE ONLY WAY SHE WANTED TO PURSUE AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY IS THAT THEY COULD SOMEHOW CONVINCE REPUBLICANS WITH THE WEIGHT OF THE FACTS, BECAUSE OTHERWISE IT WOULD BE TOO DIVISIVE.

WELL, YOU KNOW, THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS DIVISIVE.

THE SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT WAS DIVISIVE.

JUSTICE IS DIVISIVE.

YOU KNOW WHY IT'S DIVISIVE?

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT JUSTICE ARE GOING TO MAKE US THINK AND I THINK WE'RE IN ONE OF THE EXISTENTIAL MOVEMENTS FOR THE NATION WHERE WE'RE FACING A CHOICE.

EITHER WE GET DOWN TO BRASS TACKS AND FIGHT FOR THE VALUES THAT THE NATION WAS FOUNDED ON OR WE WORRY ABOUT DIVISIVENESS, RIGHT?

AND I THINK OUR REPUBLIC IS STRONG ENOUGH.

I THINK OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO ACHIEVE JUSTICE AND I THINK THAT'S THE VALUE WE HAVE TO HOLD MOST DEAR AT A TIME LIKE THIS.

IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE WHY PEOPLE WANT TO THINK ABOUT THESE HEARINGS IN TERMS OF THE CLINTON HEARINGS OR THE NIXON HEARINGS, BUT PERHAPS IS THERE SOME OTHER ABUSE OF POWER OR REACH WHICH IS MORE ANALOGOUS TO THIS SITUATION?

I'VE BEEN THINKING A LOT OF SOMETHING WE'VE MANAGED TO FORGET AND THAT'S THE IRAN CONTRA SCANDAL THE REASON THERE'S PARALLELS TO THAT SCANDAL IS THERE WAS ANOTHER TIME WITH A SMALL GROUP OF FIGURES LIKE RICHARD AND OLIVER AND JOHN POINDEXTER BASICALLY IN THE BASEMENT O.

WHITE HOUSE CREATING THEIR OWN FOREIGN POLICY AND DOING ENRON WITH THE CONGRESS AND WE COULDN'T SEND MILITARY AID TO THE REBELS FIGHTING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT IN NICARAGUA AND OF COURSE, THEY GOT THE MONEY IN ORDER TO DO THIS BY SELLING MISSILES TO IRAN WHICH WAS HOLDING AMERICANS HOSTAGE AND IT WAS A DISASTER BECAUSE THEY WOULD TAKE THE MISSILES AND THEY WOULDN'T RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.

NOW THE REASON THEY WERE DOING THIS AND THE REASON RONALD REAGAN AUTHORIZED THIS WAS BECAUSE OF THEIR ANTI-COMMUNIST IDEALS.

IT WASN'T JUST THE ATTEMPT TO WIN THE ELECTION.

IT WAS EXTRAORDINARILY UNPOPULAR.

THEY DID IT BECAUSE RONALD REAGAN WOULD SHOW UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AND GIVE SPEECHES ASKING TO SUPPORT CONTRA AND AMERICANS JUST WEREN'T INTERESTED.

INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, YOU DON'T HEAR PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THIS EVEN THOUGH THERE'S A PARALLEL.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IS I THINK PEOPLE REALLY DURING THE INVESTIGATION OF IRAN CONTRA LOST THE STOMACH FOR TAKING THE INVESTIGATION TO ITS UTTER MOST.

THERE WAS NO IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY.

THE IDEA WAS WE'D ALREADY TAKEN DOWN ONE PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF MALFEASANCE.

THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WON'T STAND FOR IT IF WE TRY TO DO IT AGAIN AND THEN WHEN, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN REAGAN OFFICIALS LIKE WEINBERGER THE DEFENSE SECRETARY WAS CON VICTI VICTED OF A CRIME, I'M AFRAID THAT WAS A VERY DANGEROUS SIGNAL TO ELITES IN THIS COUNTRY THAT BASICALLY SOME INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICA ARE TOO BIG TO FAIL.

PEOPLE WILL NOT TAKE THEM ON BECAUSE OF FEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, BREAKING THOSE EGGS TO MAKE THE OMELETTE OF JUSTICE.

IT'S JUST TOO DIVISIVE AN IDEA.

DOES THIS MOMENT NOW, RIGHT NOW, REMIND YOU OF ANY OTHER MOMENT IN HISTORY THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMPEACHMENT?

WELL, CERTAINLY, REMINDS ME OF 1850s WHERE ONE PART OF THE COUNTRY, NAMELY THE CONFEDERATE SOUTH WAS SO ABSORBED IN PRAXISMS OF RACE THEY DIDN'T CONSIDER THE REST OF THE COUNTRY'S POLITICS.

LEGITIMATE VERY VIOLENT TIME.

SOUTHERNERS WERE BEATING UP MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.

BANNING ANTI-SLAVERY BOOKS.

BASICALLY THREATENING TO LEAVE THE UNION IF A LIBERAL PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED AND OF COURSE, ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS ELECTED AND THEY DID LEAVE THE UNION AND FIRED ON FORT SUMNER AND MADE A WAR TO PRESERVE SLAVERY.

THE IDEA OF OUR TIME IS THAT ONE GROUP OF AMERICANS IS ILLEGITIMATE.

I BEGAN DOCUMENTING REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES TALKING ABOUT LIB ERALS AND DEMOCRATS AS IF THEY'RE NOT LEGITIMATE GOVERNING PARTNERS BACK IN 2007.

WE'VE SEEN THE PARTY BECOME MORE AND MORE RADICAL, MORE INVESTED IN THE IDEA THAT THEIR RIGHTEOUS RAGE AND WISH FOR POWER SHOULD TRUMP ALL NORMS AND RULES THAT THIS IS WHERE WE'RE AT.

WE'RE AT A PLACE WHERE THE PRESIDENT WILL SHOW UP ON STAGE, AT A FRACKING CONFERENCE IN PITTSBURGH, AN AMERICAN WILL EXERCISE HIS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO PROTEST THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRESIDENT WITH A BUNCH OF BURLY MEN SITTING BEHIND HIM WEARING HARD HATS WILL LOOK IN THE CAMERA AND SAY, WE'VE GOT SOME VERY TOUGH GUYS HERE.

BETTER NOT DO THAT.

INTIMATING VIOLENCE AGAINST AMERICANS FOR EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

THAT'S A VERY SCARY THING AND THAT'S PART OF THAT TRUMPIAN MALFEASANCE WE HAVE TO TAKE ON IN ITS ENTIRETY WHILE WE HAVE THE ATTENTION AND WHILE THESE HEARINGS ARE GOING ON.

SO RICK, AFTER NIXON RESIGNED AND PRESIDENT FORD SAID OUR LONG NATIONAL NIGHTMARE IS OVER, WAS IT?

DOES IT GIVE US ANY SENSE OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN NEXT FOR US HERE?

WHEN PRESIDENT FORD CHOSE TO PARDON RICHARD NIXON FOR ANY CRIME HE MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT, AND WE'RE TALKING ANY CRIME.

IF IT WAS FOUND OUT HE HAD DONE SOMETHING AWFUL, FLUSHED OUT, HE WOULD BE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT CRIME.

AND GERALD FORD SAID THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER.

I'M AFRAID THAT WAS KIND O F A WILLFUL WISHING AWAY OF CONFLICTS THAT WERE DEEP AND REALLY NEEDED TO BE RESOLVED IN THAT KIND OF WAY.

I THINK THAT WAS, AGAIN, ONE OF THE SIGNALS TO FUTURE GENERATIONS OF POWERFUL MALEFACTORS THEY WERE TOO BIG TO FAIL, RIGHT?

THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH AWFUL THINGS AND THE PREDECESSOR VAC -- PRESERVATION OF THE SYSTEM WOULD BE VALUED OVER JUSTICE.

RICK PERLSTEIN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.