11.15.2019

Masha Gessen on the Need for a Stable and Free Ukraine

Marie Yovanovitch describes vital U.S. interests as trying to help set up a stable, free and democratic Ukraine that could resist pressure from Russia. New Yorker columnist Masha Gessen has deep insight into how authoritarian leaders like Vladimir Putin function, and says she is “shocked but not surprised” by what we are learning in this impeachment inquiry. She joins the program from New York.

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AND DO YOU KNOW HOW THIS IS BEING PLAYED IN RUSSIA?

WHAT ARE THEY COMMENTING ON THESE HEARINGS AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?

YOU KNOW, RUSSIA HAS SEEN UKRAINE AND HAS PORTRAYED UKRAINE AS AN ENEMY STATE, AS AN ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES IN ITS CONFLICT WITH RUSSIA AND THIS MAY SOUND SURPRISING BECAUSE WE'VE GOTTEN USED TO THINKING ABOUT PUTIN AND TRUMP AS SUCH GREAT FRIENDS.

THAT'S NOT USUALLY THE WAY RUSSIAN MEDIA PLAY IT.

RUSSIAN MEDIA HAVE BEEN FAIRLY CONSISTENT ON UKRAINE AS, AGAIN, RUSSIA AT WAR WITH UKRAINE FOR FIVE YEARS NOW AND RUSSIAN, ITS AGGRESSION ON RUSSIA'S PART.

IT'S NOT REALLY EVEN FAIR TO SAY AT WAR WITH THE UKRAINE.

RUSSIA HAS BEEN WAGING WAR AGAINST UKRAINE AND HAS ANNEXED PART OF ITS TERRITORY.

AND THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR FIVE YEARS BUT THE WAY THAT THE CONFLICT HAS BEEN SOLD TO THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC IS BY PORTRAYING UKRAINE AS A PROXY OF THE UNITED STATES.

FROM RUSSIA'S POINT OF VIEW, THIS IS VERY MUCH A BATTLE GROUND OF GREAT POWER.

THE UNITED STATES WAS UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, I THINK, QUITE RELUCTANTLY.

ACKNOWLEDGING THE CONFLICT AND TREATING UKRAINE AS A TROUBLED DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY THAT IS UNDER FROM RUSSIA.

I DON'T THINK IT EVER REALLY ACCEPTED THAT CHALLENGE OF, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHERE THE GREAT POWERS ARE AT WAR AND OF COURSE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS HARD, WREAKED ABSOLUTE HAVOC ESPECIALLY WITH THE FOREIGN POLICY IN UKRAINE BUT I WANT TO ECHO AMBASSADOR TAYLOR SAYING THIS IS A STORY ABOUT UKRAINE.

A COUNTRY OF 50 MILLION PEOPLE.

A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF WHOM RISK THEIR LIVES TO WIN THEIR CHANCE AT BUILDING A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

THEY WERE OUT IN THE STREETS DURING THE REVOLUTION, THE SECOND DEMOCRATIC REVOLUTION OF UKRAINE.

THE FIRST REVOLUTION WAS THE ORANGE REVOLUTION IN 2004.

TEN YEARS LATER IN THE WINTER OF 2 2013, 2014, UKRAINIANS SPENT THREE MONTHS IN THE STREETS IN BITTER COLD DEMANDING THAT THEIR COUNTRY TURN AWAY FROM RUSSIA AND TOWARD THE WEST AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, DEMANDING ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THEIR GOVERNMENT.

AND THEY STAGED THIS REVOLUTION AND THEY HAVE BEEN COUNTING ON THE UNITED STATES TO BE AN ALLY IN BUILDING A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY THERE AND THE UNITED STATES HAS REALLY BEEN PRETTY CONSISTENTLY FAILING THEM BUT NEVER QUITE AS SHAMEFULLY AS NOW.

About This Episode EXPAND

James Melville joins Christiane Amanpour to assess Marie Yovanovitch’s testimony in the impeachment inquiry against President Trump. Elissa Slotkin discusses attitudes towards the investigation in swing districts. Masha Gessen sheds light on the relationship between Russia, Ukraine and the U.S. Rick Perlstein speaks with Alison Stewart to give a historical perspective on this week’s hearings.

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