Lauren Greenfield and Andy Bautista Discuss “The Kingmaker”

> OUR NEXT STORY ABOUT THE PHILIPPINES OFFERS A CAUTIONARY TALE ABOUT THE CORROSIVE EFFECTS OF CORRUPTION.

IMELDA MARCOS, FIRST LADY OF THE PHILIPPINES, IS KNOWN FOR HER COLLECTION OF SHOES AND LAVISH LIFESTYLE, AND THE RUTHLESS DICTATORSHIP THAT SHE AND HER HUSBAND RULED FOR DECADES, GETTING MASSIVELY RICH IN THE PROCESS THEMSELVES.

'THE KINGMAKER,' A STUNNING DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE LARGER THAN LIFE IMELDA MARCOS.

THEY SAT DOWN WITH ALISON STEWART TO DISCUSS THE POWER OF PERCEPTION OVER TRUTH.

WELCOME.

THANK YOU.

LAUREN, WHY DID YOU CALL THE FILM 'THE KINGMAKER'?

I CALLED IT 'THE KINGMAKER' BECAUSE I SAW IMELDA AS A KINGMAKER.

A KINGMAKER IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS A CRITICAL IMPACT ON POLITICAL SUCCESSION WITHOUT BEING A VIABLE CANDIDATE THEMSELVES.

AND THAT TO ME WAS IMELDA.

SHE WAS CRUCIAL IN COMING TO THE PRESIDENCY OF HER HUSBAND, PRESIDENT FERDINAND MARCOS, AND THEN SHE WAS THE PERSON HELPING HER SON, THE PRINCE, HOPEFULLY GET BACK TO THE PALACE.

AND THEN SHE PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN THIS ALLIANCE WITH DUTERTE, BRINGING IN A NEW STRONG MAN.

SHARE WITH OUR AUDIENCE WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE UNDER THE MARCOS REGIME.

IN 1986 I WAS ONE OF THOSE THAT MARCHED IN THE REVOLUTION WHEN THEY WERE DEPOSED AND WENT TO HAWAII.

SINCE THEN OF COURSE THERE HAS BEEN DEBATE WHAT THEIR LEGACY WAS GOING TO BE.

INITIALLY IT WAS CLEAR THERE WAS A LOT OF MONEY THAT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE PUBLIC TREASURY AND USED TO PURCHASE ALL SORTS OF ASSETS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WHAT ARE ASSETS?

AGAIN, WHEN I WAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION ON GOOD GOVERNMENT IN 2010, AND THIS IS ALREADY 25 YEARS AFTER THE FACT, WE WERE ABLE TO ASSEMBLE A LIST OF THESE ASSETS.

THERE HAS BEEN A FOCUS ON THE SHOES.

BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, THOSE SHOES ARE REALLY A DISTRACTION.

BECAUSE THEY SORT OF GIVE YOU THE IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS JUST FRIVOLOUS SHOPPING.

NO, THIS WAS SHOPPING AT ITS BEST, IN FOUR OF THE BEST BUILDINGS IN MANHATTAN ONCE OWNED BY THE MARCOSS.

THE BEST PAINTINGS IN THE WORLD.

JEWELRY THAT COULD RIVAL MONARCHY.

A LOT OF CASH AND SECURITIES.

I THINK THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD FOCUS ON.

IN 1986, THE ESTIMATE WAS ABOUT $10 BILLION.

AND THAT WAS CONSERVATIVE.

AND REMEMBER, 1986, THAT WAS 40 YEARS AGO.

THE PCGG WAS ONLY ABLE TO RECOVER $4 BILLION IN TOTAL.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP WHERE IMELDA MARCOS IS LAMENTING A LOSS OF SOME OF HER WEALTH.

OH, THEY SEQUESTERED EVERYTHING.

ALL THE JEWELRY THAT THEY WOULD FIND.

ALL THE VALUABLES THAT THEY WOULD ENCOUNTER.

ALL THE BEAUTIFUL THINGS.

THE PCGG WOULD CONFISCATE ANYTHING THEY WANTED TO KEEP, THAT THEY FELT WAS STOLEN.

EVEN THIS HOUSE ONLY A FEW MONTHS AGO WAS BEING AUCTIONED OFF.

WE CANNOT STAY REALLY HERE BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW WHEN WE WILL BE KICKED OUT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU SEE THAT CLIP?

THE PHILIPPINE SUPREME COURT, THE UNANIMOUS DECISION IN 1994 SAID THAT THE LEGITIMATE INCOME OF THE MARCUS COUPLE 1965 IS SOMEWHERE IN THE VICINITY OF $320,000.

THAT'S IT.

AND YET IF YOU LOOK AT THE ASSETS THAT THE PCGG WAS ABLE TO UNCOVER, THEY WERE IN THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

SO -- ALL I CAN DO IS SIGH WHEN I SEE THOSE KINDS OF CLIPS.

RIGHT AFTER THAT MOMENT IMELDA IS COMPLAINING, I HAD MY MONEY IN 170 BANKS AND I CAN'T GET TO IT.

SO SHE'S SO UPSET AT THE PCGG.

WHEN ANDY --

WHEN I FIRST SAW THE FILM IN TELLURIDE AND I HEARD HER SAY THAT, I SAID I WISH I HAD KNOWN THAT WHEN I WAS IN OFFICE, THIS IS A REVELATION.

170 BANK ACCOUNTS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

HE SAID HE COULD HAVE USED THAT AS EVIDENCE.

MONEY IS CLEARLY SO IMPORTANT TO HER.

IN THE FILM SHE DOLES OUT DOLLAR BILLS TO CHILDREN LIKE CANDY.

SHE GIVES THEM TO CHILDREN WHO ARE HOSPITALIZED.

SHE HAS WADS OF CASH.

WHAT DOES MONEY AND WEALTH MEAN TO HER?

SHE SAYS SOMETHING INTERESTING, SHE WOULD SPEND AN HOUR GETTING READY WHEN SHE WENT TO POORER SLUMS BECAUSE THE POOR ARE A STAR IN THE DARK OF THE NIGHT.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT SHE WANTS IS TO BE THAT STAR.

WHETHER IT'S HANDING OUT MONEY OR WEARING BEAUTIFUL DRESSES AND HAVING SHOES AND PALACES, IT'S ABOUT BEING THAT QUEENLY FIGURE THAT GIVES HER THE KIND OF LOVE AND ADRACE OF THE PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT'S WHY SHE WANTS TO GET BACK.

DOES SHE BELIEVE THE THINGS SHE SAYS OR IS SHE A LIAR?

I THINK THAT SHE HASKINSED HERSELF OF THESE -- THIS VERSION OF HISTORY THAT SHE SAYS.

SHE SPEAKS WITH GREAT CONVICTION.

AND IS A LITTLE BIT DISCONNECTED, LIKE SHE'S IN HER OWN WORLD.

WHAT'S AN EXAMPLE?

I GUESS ONE OF THE EGREGIOUS EXAMPLES WAS WHAT SHE SAID, MARTIAL LAW WAS A GREAT TIME IN THE PHILIPPINES, IT WAS A GREAT TIME FOR FILIPINO SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND IT WAS A TIME THAT WAS TERRIBLE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.

70,000 IMPRISONED, 30,000 TORTURED, MORE THAN 3,000 KILLED.

THE FACT THAT SHE COULD SAY IT WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST TIMES OF THE MARCOS REGIME, A GOOD TIME FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, IS -- HAS NO RELATION IN REALITY.

I THINK THAT THERE YOU HAVE TO SEE THAT SHE DOES HAVE AGENCY AND STRATEGY ABOUT WHAT SHE'S SAYING.

BECAUSE BY SAYING IT'S THE BEST TIME, SHE'S REWRITING HISTORY, ERASING THE SINS OF THE PAST IN A WAY THAT POSITIONS HER AND HER FAMILY TO RETURN TO POWER.

HERE IS RUSSIA.

WE WERE BORN THERE.

HERE IS MRS. MAO.

THIS IS PRESIDENT NIXON PLAYING THE PIANO, AND I'M SINGING THERE.

HE WOULD COME AND CALL ON ME.

HE WAS SHE NICE AND VERY HUMAN.

BUT HE WAS MISUNDERSTOOD.

AND I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION.

YOU'VE SEEN THE FILM.

SHE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH IN THE SENSE THAT SHE REALLY HAD ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE WORLD LEADERS.

AND I THINK THAT FAIRNESS TO HER, SHE WAS ABLE TO CHARM THEM.

AT THE SAME TIME, THIS WAS DESCRIBED IN THE FILM, HOW PRESIDENT MARCOS WOULD USE HER AS LIKE A DIPLOMATIC BUTTERFLY TO TRY AND BUTTER UP TO THESE LEADERS.

AND YES, SHE PROBABLY WAS SUCCESSFUL IN A CERTAIN WAY.

AT THE SAME TIME, SHE WAS ALSO CLAIMING THAT SHE WAS THE ONE THAT STARTED THE END OF THE COLD WAR AND THINGS LIKE THIS, WHICH TO MY MIND IS A BIT DELUSIONAL.

IT'S A VERY PERSONAL BRAND OF POLITICS WHERE IF SOMEBODY IS NICE TO HER, SHE LIKES THEM.

SO WE SEE HER BEFRIENDING DICTATORS AS KIND OF ROGUE'S GALLERIES.

SADDAM HUSSEIN, MOAMMAR GADHAFI.

PEOPLE THOUGHT THESE PEOPLE WERE MONSTERS BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY GENEROUS AND KIND.

THAT'S ALSO THE PARADOX OF IMELDA'S CHARACTER.

IN PERSON SHE IS GENEROUS AND KIND, YET SHE'S BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES OF THE MARCOS REGIME AND ALSO THE DUTERTE PRESIDENCY.

CAN YOU CONNECT IMELDA MARCOS TO THE 2016 ELECTION IN THE PHILIPPINES?

YOU MEAN THE ELECTION OF DUTERTE AS PRESIDENT?

YES.

THAT WAS A REVELATION THAT WAS WAS KIND OF A BREAKING NEWS PIECE AT THE END OF OUR STORY.

AT FIRST I KNEW THAT DUTERTE ADMIRED MARCOS, BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL HE REVEALED IN A PRESS CONFERENCE THAT THE DAUGHTER OF IMELDA HAD GIVEN HIM FINANCING FOR THE CAMPAIGN THAT WE REALLY REALIZED THE EXTENT OF THE ALLIANCE.

SHORTLY AFTER THAT, DUTERTE AFTER HE BECAME PRESIDENT ALLOWED A HERO'S BURIAL FOR PRESIDENT MARCOS, WHICH PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN IN PEOPLE POWER AND OPPOSED THE MARCOSES AND KNEW OF THEIR CRIMES WERE HORRIFIED THAT HE COULD BE BURIED IN THE HEROES CEMETERY.

THE HEAD OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION SAYS IN THE BEGINNING OF THE FILM SAYS, WHAT?

YOU QUESTION A LOT OF WHAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED.

IT REMINDS MANY PEOPLE, IF YOU WATCH THIS FILM, OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU SEE PARALLELS?

THERE WERE A LOT OF STUNNING PARALLELS AND THAT DEFINITELY INFLUENCED ME IN THE MAKING AND EDITING OF THE FILM AND THINKING ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN, DUTERTE, LIKE TRUMP, WAS A SURPRISE.

HE WAS SOMEBODY THAT MADE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE HE'S ONE OF THE PEOPLE.

HE SWEARS A LOT, VULGAR IN HIS LANGUAGE, YET COMES FROM AN ELITE BACKGROUND.

IT WAS AN ELECTION THAT WAS INFLUENCED BY DISINFORMATION AND FAKE NEWS PROPAGATED BY SOCIAL MEDIA.

I THINK BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH POVERTY THEY WERE ABLE TO BE INFLUENCED BOTH BY SOCIAL MEDIA AND BY MONEY THAT WAS OFFERED IN EXCHANGE FOR VOTING, AS CAN HAPPEN IN THE PHILIPPINES.

AND SO PEOPLE WANTED THE KIND OF CHANGE, PROMISES OF CHANGE, THAT A STRONG MAN IN THE FORM OF DUTERTE OFFERED.

I THINK IN -- I HOPE IT CAN BE A CAUTIONARY TALE FOR US.

IT'S MORE EXTREME, OF COURSE, THAN WE ARE LIVING HERE.

MORE THAN 30,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS.

BUT SOME OF THE ATTACKS ON THE PRESS, ON THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE JUDICIARY, DO MAKE US THINK OF THE THREATS TO OUR DEMOCRACY HERE.

WHAT DOES IMELDA UNDERSTAND ABOUT POLITICS AND THE MEDIA?

SHE ATTACKS THE MEDIA VERY MUCH LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND AT ONE POINT SHE SAID, THE MEDIA -- NO, SHE SAID, THE GUN CAN ONLY KILL YOU UNTIL THE GRAVE, BUT THE MEDIA CAN KILL YOU BEYOND THE GRAVE TO INFINITY.

AND IT'S ONE OF THESE KIND OF BRILLIANT STATEMENTS THAT SHE WILL COME OUT WITH WHERE YOU REALIZE SHE HAS SUCH A PROFOUND UNDERSTANDING OF THE DYNAMICS OF MODERN MEDIA WHEN SHE SAID, PERCEPTION IS REAL AND THE TRUTH IS NOT.

SHE'S ALSO SPEAKING TO THAT.

WE HAVE A CLIP OF BONG BONG MARCOS BEING ASKED A QUESTION IN A PRESS CONFERENCE.

THIS IS RIGHT AFTER THE BIG VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE.

AND IN THE DEBATE, HIS OPPONENT PUSHED HIM ON THE ILL-GOTTEN WEALTH THAT HIS FAMILY HAD TAKEN FROM THE PHILIPPINES.

SO HE GOES OUT TO A PRESS CONFERENCE AND THEY ASK HIM ABOUT THE ILL GOTTEN WEALTH.

SENATOR MARCOS SPENT A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

PAYING OFF MAYORS, CONGRESSMEN, OTHERS.

HE'S BEEN GIVING OUT MONEY LEFT AND RIGHT.

YOU ASK YOURSELF, WHERE'S ALL THAT MONEY COMING FROM?

THIS GOES BACK TO A SCENE WHERE WE GO BACK TO IMELDA'S APARTMENT, WE SEE THE PICASSOS AND THE PRICELESS ARTWORK IN HER APARTMENT.

THEN ANDY TELLS A STORY ABOUT RAIDING THE APARTMENT, TRYING TO GET THESE PAINTINGS OF ILL-GOTTEN WEALTH.

THIS ONE IS OF COURSE A PICASSO.

MARCOS WOULD SAY, IMELDA, I KNOW HOW TO EARN MONEY PROPERLY.

BUT YOU KNOW HOW TO SPEND MONEY PROPERLY BECAUSE YOU BUY BEAUTY.

THIS IS MICHELANGELO.

WE FILED A MOTION WITH THE PHILIPPINE COURT AND ASKED FOR A WRIT OF ATTACHMENT ON THESE PAINTINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SUBJECT OF LITIGATION.

THERE WAS A TEAM THAT WENT TO HER HOUSE.

AND THEY TOOK PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE WALLS.

YOU CAN SEE THAT THE PAINTINGS HAVE BEEN REPLACED.

ANOTHER INTERESTING PHOTO.

HERE YOU CAN SEE THE BUST OF PRESIDENT MARCOS.

AND THERE ARE TWO IMPORTANT PAINTINGS ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT SIDE.

BUT SUBSEQUENTLY WHEN THE RAIDING TEAM CAME IN, THERE IS THE BUST.

THE MEDALS ARE STILL THIS.

BUT INSTEAD OF PAINTINGS YOU HAVE THE PHOTOS OF MRS. MARCOS AND PRESIDENT MARCOS.

SO THEY WERE REMOVED.

THERE'S THE MICHELANGELO.

THE PHOTO OF PRESIDENT MARCOS INSTEAD.

WE GOT CONTACTED BY THE NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE UNDER CYRUS VANCE JR. TO INVESTIGATE A SUSPICIOUS SALE OF A MONET WATER LILY PAINTING THAT WAS BEING SOLD BY THE SECRETARY OF MRS. MARCOS.

IN TRYING TO BUILD THE CASE, I WAS TASKED TO MEET WITH MRS.

MARCOS PERSONALLY TO ASK HER WHETHER OR NOT THAT PAINTING BELONGED TO HER.

SO TOGETHER WITH A COLLEAGUE WE WENT TO HER APARTMENT.

AND I ASKED HER, MRS. MARCOS, IS THIS MONET PAINTING YOURS?

WITHOUT BATTING AN EYELASH SHE TELLS ME, YOU KNOW WHAT, THERE WERE SO MANY OF THEM, I DON'T ANYMORE REMEMBER.

AFTER THAT SHE USHERS ME INTO THE ELEVATOR.

AS WE WERE GOING DOWN SHE SAID, IN CASE I SAY THIS PAINTING IS MINE, WILL THEY GIVE IT BACK TO ME?

THIS WAS THE SAME TIME THAT I SAW THE PICASSO AND THE MICHELANGELO.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT WE WEREN'T TO THE COURT TO OBTAIN A SEARCH WARRANT IN ORDER TO GET THESE PAINTINGS.

BUT TAKING TIME IN THE PHILIPPINES TO ISSUE A WARRANT.

BY THE TIME THE AUTHORITIES WERE ABLE TO SHOW THE WARRANT THE PAINTINGS WERE GONE.

TYOU ARE IN LONGER LIVING IN THE FILE BEANS WHY?

I LEFT THE COUNTRY IN 2018.

SORRY, NO, 2017.

THIS HAPPENED BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF PRESSURE.

IF I CAN JUST RELATE, I WAS HERE DURING THE NOVEMBER 2016 ELECTIONS.

I WAS AN OBSERVER IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

WHEN I CAME HOME TO MANILA, ALL OF A SUDDEN MY HOUSE WAS BEING GUARDED BY ARMED GUARDS.

AND I WAS BEING PREVENTED FROM RETURNING TO MY OWN HOUSE.

WHEN I GOT INSIDE THE HOUSE, I SAW THAT MY PERSONAL FILES HAD BEEN RANSACKED.

MY COMPUTERS HAD BEEN HACKED.

AND THAT THERE WAS THIS HUGE EXTORTION PLAY AGAINST ME AND MY FAMILY.

AND THAT WENT ON FOR SEVERAL MONTHS TO THE POINT THAT I FELT THAT FOR THE GOOD OF MY FAMILY, ESPECIALLY FOR MY CHILDREN, PERHAPS I SHOULD FIRST LEAVE THE COUNTRY IN ORDER TO GIVE THEM BREATHING SPACE.

THE NAME OF THE FILM IS 'THE KINGMAKER.'

LAUREN GREENFIELD, ANDY BAUTISTA, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.