November 15, 2019

> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR' AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

HOW COULD OUR SYSTEM FAIL LIKE THIS?

HOW IS IT THAT FOREIGN CORRUPT INTERESTS COULD MANIPULATE OUR GOVERNMENT?

AMBASSADOR MARIE YOVANOVITCH DESCRIBES BEING KNEECAPED BY HER OWN GOVERNMENT AS SHE WORKED TO SERVE AMERICAN INTERESTS IN UKRAINE.

WE HEAR FROM AN AMBASSADOR WHO RESIGNED AFTER 33 YEARS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT WHO WAS ALSO UNDERMINED AS SHE PURSUED AMERICAN INTERESTS.

THEN I SPEAK WITH DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN AND FORMER CIA ANALYST ALICIA SLOTHKIN.

THE REACTION SHE GETS AT HOME IN SWING STATE MICHIGAN.

PLUS, WE LOOK AT HOW U.S. POLICY PLAYS INTO RUSSIA'S HANDS WITH PUTIN BIOGRAPHER MARCIA AND --

SPEAKS TO THE ENTIRE POLITICAL PARTY.

HISTORIAN TAKES US THROUGH THE HISTORY OF IMPEACHMENT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

MARIE YOVANOVITCH, AMERICA'S OUSTED AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE DESCRIBED IN DETAIL HOW IT FEELS TO BE THREATENED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

DURING HER TESTIMONY ON DAY TWO OF THESE PUBLIC IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS.

I WAS SHOCKED AND DEVASTATED THAT I WOULD FEATURE IN A PHONE CALL BETWEEN TWO HEADS OF STATE IN SUCH A MANNER WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT I WAS BAD NEWS TO ANOTHER WORLD LEADER AND THAT I WILL BE GOING THROUGH SOME THINGS.

SO IT WAS A TERRIBLE MOMENT.

A PERSON WHO SAW ME ACTUALLY READING THE TRANSCRIPT SAID THAT THE COLOR DRAINED FROM MY FACE.

I THINK I HAD A PHYSICAL REACTION.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, EVEN NOW.

EVEN AS SHE WAS TESTIFYING, PRESIDENT TRUMP TWEETED A FRESH SMEAR AGAINST HER.

CHAIRMAN ADAM SHIFF CALLED THE PRESIDENT'S ATTACK WITNESS INTIMIDATION IN REALTIME.

HOW DID MARIE YOVANOVITCH, A 30 YEAR FOREIGN SERVICE VETERAN END UP IN THE PRESIDENT'S CROSS HAIRS?

BY FIGHTING CORRUPTION, THAT'S HOW.

AND THAT ANGERED RUDY GIULIANI THE DEF FACTO OF FOREIGN POLICY AND THE FORMER PROSECUTOR GENERAL.

WAS IT MR. LUSENKO AMONG OTHERS WHO PEDDLED FALSE ALLEGATIONS WITH YOU AND THE BIDENS?

YES, THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING.

WERE THESE SMEARS ALSO AMPLIFIED BY THE PRESIDENT'S SON DONALD TRUMP JR. AS WELL AS CERTAIN HOST S ON FOX?

YES, YES, THAT IS THE CASE.

IN THE CASE OF THIS SMEAR CAMPAIGN, DID COLLEAGUES AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT TRY TO GET A STATEMENT OF SUPPORT FOR YOU FROM SECRETARY POMPEO?

YES.

WERE THEY SUCCESSFUL?

NO.

DID YOU COME TO LEARN THEY COULDN'T ISSUE SUCH A STATEMENT BECAUSE THEY FEARED IT WOULD BE UNDERCUT BY THE PRESIDENT?

YES.

AND THEN WERE YOU TOLD THAT THOUGH YOU HAD DONE NOTHING WRONG, YOU DID NOT ENJOY THE CONFIDENCE OF THE PRESIDENT AND COULD NO LONGER SERVE AS AMBASSADOR?

YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

SO MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS FIRSTHAND WHAT YOVANOVITCH HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH.

HER COLLEAGUE, JAMES MEHLVILLE, CAREER DIPLOMAT AND FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TOE ESTONIA, QUIT OVR COMMENTS MADE BY TRUMP'S ALLIES IN EUROPE.

JOINING ME NOW FROM CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA.

FORMER AMBASSADOR, JAMES MELVILLE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM BUT ALSO ASK YOU HOW YOU IDENTIFIED OR HOW YOU FELT FOR AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH AS SHE WENT THROUGH THE REALLY VERY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES OF SHE SAID THE TERMINATION OF HER DIPLOMATIC CAREER IN THIS MANNER.

HELLO, SHE WAS AN EXCELLENT AMBASSADOR IN UKRAINE AND EXEMPLARY CAREER.

WE WORKED CLOSELY TOGETHER IN THE EUROPEAN BUREAU A FEW YEARS AGO AND I JUST HAVE TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR HER INTEGRITY AND HER HONESTY AND HER SKILL AND I THINK THAT WAS APPARENT TODAY IN THE HEARING BECAUSE HERE WAS SOMEONE WHO HAS DEDICATED HER WHOLE PROFESSIONAL LIFE TO THE PROFESSION OF DIPLOMACY, WHICH AS SHE POINTED OUT, IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT TOOLS THAT WE HAVE TO ADVANCE OUR INTERESTS IN THE WORLD, AND FOR HER TO BE DISRESPECTED AND ABUSED IN THIS MANNER, I'M SURE, WAS JUST A PERSONAL SHOCK TO HER AS IT WAS TO HER COLLEAGUES AND HER FORMER COLLEAGUES.

AMBASSADOR MELVILLE, JUST DESCRIBE FOR US BRIEFLY WHY YOU RESIGNED, WHY YOU FELT YOU COULD NO LONGER SERVE THIS ADMINISTRATION IN YOUR POSITION WHEN YOU WERE AMBASSADOR TO ESTONIA.

WELL, IT'S A RATHER COMPLICATED STORY BUT IF I DISTILL IT DOWN TO ITS ESSENCE, I HAD BEEN DEVOTED AND HAD PRESSED THE LINE VERY, VERY OFTEN, AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH SAID TODAY THAT THE POLITICS STOPS AT THE WATER'S EDGE.

AND THE NATIONAL INTERESTS DON'T CHANGE FROM ADMINISTRATION TO ADMINISTRATION.

LIKE MA SHA, I SERVED SIX PRESIDENTS AND THEN 11 SECRETARIES OF STATE AND THEN OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENT EMPHASIS AND DIFFERENT DIRECTION BUT POLICY HAS ALWAYS BEEN TIED TO WHAT OUR ESSENTIAL VALUES ARE.

WHAT THE UNITED STATES REPRESENTS TO THE WORLD, DEMOCRACY, MARKET ECONOMY, HUMAN RIGHTS.

THINGS THAT WE REALLY HAVE, AND PEACE AND SECURITY AND SUPPORTING FREEDOM AND THESE SORTS OF THINGS SHOULDN'T CHANGE FROM ONE PARTY TO THE OTHER.

IN MY CASE, NATO AND OUR PARTNERSHIP WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION WERE SO VERY IMPORTANT TO ESTONIA IN PARTICULAR AS A FORMER SOVIET STATE AND THE U.S.

ROLE IN CHAMPIONING ESTONIAN FREEDOM AND INDEPENDENCE THROUGH THE PERIOD OF SOVIET OCCUPATION CERTAINLY CONVINCED THEM THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTNER TO SECURE THEIR PEACE AND THEIR FREEDOM AND IN FACT, SOME OF THE DISCUSSION TODAY REMINDED ME WHEN AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH WAS BEING PRESSED BY THE REPUBLICANS ABOUT THE OP-ED THAT THE UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES HAD WRITTEN, IT REMINDED ME A BIT OF WHEN MR.

TRUMP WAS A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT AND HIS ADVISERS WERE SAYING THINGS LIKE NATO IS OBSOLETE AND ONE PARTICULAR LOW POINT WAS WHEN NEWT GINGRICH WHO HAD BILLED HIMSELF AS ONE OF THEN CANDIDATE TRUMP'S CLOSEST ADVISERS WAS ON TELEVISION SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE WE REALLY GOING TO DEFEND ESTONIA?

AFTER ALL, A SUBURB OF ST.

PETER PETERSBURG.

THESE SORTS OF THINGS ARE DISTRESSING.

WHEN TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, I HONESTLY EXPECTED THEY WOULD ADJUST THE RHETORIC TO COME IN LINE WITH WHAT OUR TRADITIONAL NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS IN EUROPE AND IN THE TRANSATLANTIC WERE AND ARE.

AND I WAS ASSURED BY MANY, MANY VISITORS, HIGH LEVEL DELEGATIONS FROM CONGRESS, INCLUDING SENATOR McCAIN AND SENATOR GRAHAM AND SENATOR KLOBUCHAR AND SENATOR ALEXANDER, SPEAKER RYAN LED A VERY LARGE BIPARTISAN DELEGATION AND THEY TOLD THE ESTONIANS THE SAME THING.

OUR ROLE IN NATO WOULDN'T CHANGE A BIT.

I WONDER IF YOU HAD ANY SENSE AS AN AMBASSADOR OF AN IRREGULAR CHANNEL.

YOVANOVITCH SPOKE AND DEPUTY GEORGE KENNETH TALKED ABOUT THIS DUAL TRACK THAT WAS SET UP AND YOVANOVITCH SORT OF SAID TODAY THAT REALLY, THAT WAS WHAT SORT OF LED HER TO BE FIRED.

THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT THIS.

OUR UKRAINE POLICY HAS BEEN THROWN INTO DISARRAY AND SHADY INTERESTS, THE WORLD OVER HAVE LEARNED HOW LITTLE IT TAKES TO REMOVE AN AMERICAN AMBASSADOR WHO DOES NOT GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT.

AFTER THESE EVENTS, WHAT FOREIGN OFFICIAL, CORRUPT OR NOT, COULD BE BLAMED FOR WONDERING WHETHER THE U.S. AMBASSADOR REPRESENTS THE PRESIDENT'S VIEWS?

AND WHAT U.S. AMBASSADOR COULD BE BLAMED FOR HARBORING THE FEAR THEY KCAN'T COUNT ON OUR GOVERNMENT AS THEY HAVE STATED U.S. POLICY AND PROTECT U.S.

INTERESTS?

AT ONE POINT, MARIE YOVANOVITCH TALKED ABOUT BEING KNEECAPPED AND WENT ON TO SAY, WITH QUESTIONING, SHE HAD BEEN ADVISED BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE THAT THE PRESIDENT WANTED HER OUT.

HE'D BEEN LOBBYING FOR HER TO BE REMOVED FOR MORE THAN A YEAR.

AND SHE SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE COULDN'T GET EVEN, SHE WAS TOLD THAT SECRETARY POMPEO COULD NO LONGER DEFEND HER.

SHE NEVER GOT ANY SUPPORT FROM HIM.

DESCRIBE FOR ME WHAT WAS GOING ON AND WHAT IS GOING ON INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN THAT, ON THAT LEVEL.

WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT THE FIRST RESPONSIBILITY OF A LEADER IS TO STICK UP FOR THE LEADER'S TEAM AND OBVIOUSLY, THE DISAPPOINTMENT THAT WE ALL FEEL IN THAT LACK OF SUPPORT, THAT WAS EVIDENT IN AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH'S CASE AND IN OTHERS IS ONE OF THE HALLMARKS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHERE LOYALTY SEEMS TO ONLY MOVE IN ONE DIRECTION.

LET ME CARRY ON ON THIS LINE BECAUSE MARIE YOVANOVITCH SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, YES, THE PRESIDENT, ANY PRESIDENT HAS THE RIGHT TO APPOINT AND WITHDRAW AN AMBASSADOR.

EVERYBODY, ALL OF YOU KNOW THAT YOU SERVE AT THE PLEASURE OF THE PRESIDENT.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU ARE CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE BUT NONETHELESS, THE POINT REMAINS.

AND YET, SHE, SHE SAID YES, OF COURSE.

WHY NOT?

MAYBE HE WANTS TO WITHDRAW ME BUT WHY DID HE AND HIS OFFICIALS HAVE TO SMEAR ME?

WHY DID THEY HAVE TO RUIN MY REPUTATION OR TRY TO DO SO?

UNDER QUESTION AGAIN FROM THE DEMOCRATIC COUNSEL, ASKED ABOUT THE INTIMIDATION SHE'D BEEN FEELING AND THREATENED WITH.

LET'S LISTEN.

HE SAID, WELL, SHE'S GOING TO GO THROUGH SOME THINGS.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP TOLD PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND READ YOU WERE GOING TO GO THROUGH SOME THINGS?

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK.

BUT I WAS VERY CONCERNED.

WHAT WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT?

SHE'S GOING TO GO THROUGH SOME THINGS.

IT DIDN'T SOUND GOOD.

IT SOUNDED LIKE A THREAT.

HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED THAT?

EVER HEARD OF ANY OTHER AMBASSADORS WHO HAVE BEEN THE SUBJECT, PERSONALLY, OF THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN HEADS OF STATES OR HEADS OF CAB BET SECRETARIES?

NO.

CERTAINLY NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE HAVE I SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

IT'S PRETTY SHOCKING.

THE REPUBLICAN KEPT TRYING TO SAY THAT SHE HAD, YOU KNOW, HER TIME AND HER DEPARTURE PREDATED.

THE FAMOUS PHONE CALL, THE MILITARY AID, THE SUSPENSION OF MILITARY AID AND BASICALLY THE CONTROVERSY IN THE CRISIS THAT THESE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS ARE AROUND AND SHE ADMITTED THAT.

SHE SAID, I CAN ONLY TALK TO WHAT WAS HAPPENING WHEN I WAS THERE.

AND SHE SAID THAT SHE STARTED TO FEEL THIS BACKLASH AND SHE WAS WARNED BY A TOP UKRAINIAN TO LOOK OUT AND WATCH HER BACK BECAUSE SHE STARTED TO QUESTION AND RESIST WHAT SHE CALLS SORT OF A PRIVATE ENTERPRISE FREELANCING FOR PERSONAL GAIN BY GIULIANI'S CRONICRONIES.

AND WOULD YOU SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, YOVANOVITCH'S OUSTER SORT OF PAVED WAY FOR THIS IRREGULAR CHANNEL, THIS SECOND CHANNEL THAT'S CREATED SO MUCH OF THE FOCUS OF THESE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS?

IT SEEMS THAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO FACILITATE THAT VERY PURPOSE.

AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH WAS A CHAMPION IN OUR ANTI-CORRUPTION EFFORTS AND SHE SPOKE A BIT ABOUT THE POST SOVIET SPACE AND THE WAY THAT CORRUPTION HAS FIGURED SO PROMINENTLY IN THE GOVERNMENT OF THOSE COUNTRIES.

I MEAN, RUSSIA, FIRST OF ALL BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE IN ESTONIA, ARGUABLY THE MOST SUCCESSFUL OF THE FORMER SOVIET REPUBLICS, THE SECRET TO THEIR SUCCESS WAS THAT THE CAMPAIGN THEY LED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING TO ROOT CORRUPTION OUT AND TO HAVE A VERY TRANSPARENT GOVERNMENT AND DELIVERY OF PUBLIC SERVICES.

SO CORRUPTION ISN'T TOLERATED AT ALL AND THAT'S THE SECRET TO THEIR SUCCESS AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE ES TONIANS, PART OF THEIR FOREIGN POLICY, CHAMPION IN PLACES LIKE UKRAINE IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES AND IT IS VERY MUCH IN THE U.S. NATIONAL INTEREST THAT HUGE IMPORTANT GEOGRAPHICALLY SIGNIFICANT COUNTRY LIKE UKRAINE COME MORE TOWARD THE VALUES OF THOSE OF US IN THE WEST.

AMBASSADOR MELVILLE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON THIS DAY, THE SECOND DAY OF PUBLIC HEARINGS ON CAPITOL HILL.

NOW, DEMOCRATS RESISTED THIS IMPEACHMENT PROCESS UNTIL THE FIRST ACCOUNTS OF THE WHISTLEBLOWER COMPLAINT CAME TO LIGHT.

THEN SEVEN DEMOCRATIC FRESHMEN ALL FROM SWING DISTRICTS, ALL WITH NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERIENCE WROTE THIS IN THE 'WASHINGTON POST.'

QUOTE, TO UPHOLD AND DEFEND OUR CONSTITUTION, CONGRESS MUST DETERMINE WHETHER THE PRESIDENT WAS INDEED WILLING TO USE HIS POWER AND WITHHOLD SECURITY ASSISTANCE FUNDS TO PERSUADE A FOREIGN COUNTRY TO A SYSTEM IN AN UPCOMING ELECTION.

THAT WAS SEPTEMBER 23rd.

THE NEXT DAY, SEPTEMBER 24th, HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI LAUNCHED THE FORMAL IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY.

DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN ALYSSA SLOTKIN JOINS ME FROM HER HOME STATE IN MICHIGAN.

CONGRESSWOMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

HOW DID YOU FEEL TODAY WENT IN TERMS OF THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN CONGRESS MEMBERS AND AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH?

WHAT WAS YOUR MAIN TAKEAWAY FROM TODAY'S HEARING?

I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, WE WERE DOING HEARINGS AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER THINGS, SO I WASN'T ABLE TO WATCH EVERY SINGLE MOMENT OF IT BUT I THINK WHAT'S REALLY BEEN IMPORTANT ABOUT TODAY'S TESTIMONY AND FRANKLY, ABOUT THE TESTIMONY THAT WE HEARD A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO IS THAT WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY NOW TO BRING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ALONG WITH US, TO MAKE THIS A PUBLIC CONVERSATION.

IT'S SUCH A BIG DEAL FOR OUR COUNTRY TO GO THROUGH IMPEACHMENT THAT WE NEED PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO SEE WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BROUGHT FORWARD THIS INFORMATION AND I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH, IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE FOLKS WHO TESTIFIED EARLIER THIS WEEK, THESE ARE CAREER LONG FOREIGN SERVANTS, CIVIL SERVANTS, PUBLIC SERVANTS AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT COMES THROUGH WHEN YOU HEAR THEM SPEAK THAT THEY'RE NOT DOING THIS FOR POLITICALLY MOTIVATED REASONS, THEY DON'T HAVE AN AX TO GRIND.

THEY'RE SIMPLY TRYING TO DO WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT.

SO I THINK IT'S POWERFUL.

I CERTAINLY THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO HEAR FROM THE AMBASSADOR AND HEAR, FRANKLY, SOME OF THE PAIN IN HER VOICE, BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED, BUT I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, ONE NEW SHOW OR THE OTHER TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY THINK.

IT'S THE ACTUAL PEOPLE WHO LIVED THROUGH THIS THEMSELVES TELLING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

SO I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL THINK ABOUT WHAT CHAIRMAN ADAM SHIFF ENTERED INTO THE RECORD IN REALTIME WHEN HE TOOK IN A DRAMATIC FASHION TO THE EQUALLY DRAMATIC REALTIME INTERVENTION BY PRESIDENT TRUMP ON TWITTER AGAINST AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH AS SHE WAS TESTIFYING AND HERE'S PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TWEET OR AT LEAST PART OF IT.

EVERYWHERE MARIE YOVANOVITCH WENT TURNED BAD.

SHE STARTED OFF IN SOMALIA, HOW DID THAT GO?

AND THEN FAST FORWARD TO UKRAINE WHERE THE NEW UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT SPOKE UNFAVORABLY ABOUT HER IN MY SECOND PHONE CALL WITH HIM.

IT IS A U.S. PRESIDENT'S ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO APPOINT AMBASSADORS.

SHE WAS GIVEN A CHANCE TO RESPOND AND THIS IS THE CONVERSATION WITH CHAIRMAN SHIFF.

NOW THE PRESIDENT REALTIME IS ATTACKING YOU.

WHAT EFFECT DO YOU THINK THAT HAS ON OTHER WITNESSES' WILLINGNESS TO COME FORWARD AND EXPOSE WRONGDOING?

WELL, IT'S VERY INTIMIDATING.

DESIGNED TO INTIMIDATE, IS IT NOT?

I MEAN, I CAN'T SPEAK TO WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO DO, BUT I THINK THE EFFECT IS TO BE INTIMIDATING.

I WANT TO LET YOU KNOW, AMBASSADOR, SOME OF US HERE, TAKE WITNESS INTIMIDATION VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY.

CONGRESSWOMAN, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TWEET AMOUNTED TO WITNESS INTIMIDATION?

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A LAWYER.

I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND WHERE THE LEGAL STANDARD IS.

IT'S JUST INAPPROPRIATE.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE LEARNED FROM MY PEERS AND COLLEAGUES AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED THROUGH OTHER IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS WHEN CLINTON WAS BEING IMPEACHED OR NIXON WAS BEING IMPEACHED IS THAT THE WHITE HOUSE REALLY TRIED TO MAKE AN EFFORT TO GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS TO SHOW THEY WERE STILL DOING THE BUSINESS OF THE PEOPLE EVEN WHILE THE HEARINGS WERE GOING ON AND I THINK MOST OF US FEEL LIKE WE WISH THAT THIS PRESIDENT WAS ABLE TO DO THAT AS WELL AND TO SORT OF ENGAGE HIMSELF IN REALTIME IN THE PROCEEDINGS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT LEGAL THRESHOLD IT CROSSES.

IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT.

LET ME JUST PLAY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RESPONSE WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT IT BY A REPORTER.

TAMPERING IS WHEN SHIFF DOESN'T LET US HAVE WITNESS, DOESN'T LET US SPEAK.

I'VE BEEN WATCHING TODAY, FOR THE FIRST TIME I STARTED WATCHING AND REALLY SAD WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE NOT ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS.

NOBODY'S EVER HAD SUCH HORRIBLE DUE PROCESS.

THERE WAS NO DUE PROCESS AND I THINK IT'S CONSIDERED A JOKE, ALL OVER WASHINGTON AND ALL OVER THE WORLD.

SIR, DO YOU BELIEVE THE TWEET TO BE INTIMIDATING?

I DON'T THINK SO AT ALL.

OBVIOUSLY, THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO SAY THAT BUT INTERESTINGLY, SOME VERY KEY FIGURES, FOR INSTANCE, CHRIS WALLACE OF FOX NEWS, HE ALSO SAID THAT IF YOU'RE NOT MOVED BY THE TESTIMONY OF MARIE YOVANOVITCH TODAY, YOU DON'T HAVE A PULSE.

THE REALLY DRAMATIC MOMENT WASN'T JUST TESTIMONY, IT PLAYED OUT IN REALTIME WITH THE PRESIDENT ATTACKING HER AND SAYING EVERY PLACE SHE SERVED WENT BAD.

AND THEN SAID DECIDED ABOUT COUNSEL DOING THIS TWEET, EXTRAORDINARILY POOR JUDGMENT.

I DON'T THINK IT RISES TO THE LEVEL OF INTIMIDATION BUT I THINK THAT'S THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE CHARACTERIZED.

I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET FROM YOU IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH CONSTITUENTS IN YOUR OWN AREA THERE WHO ALSO ARE VERY MUCH ON THE FENCE ABOUT THIS WHOLE PROCESS.

IF PEOPLE FROM FOX NEWS, IF PEOPLE LIKE KEN STAR AND LIZ CHENEY WHO SAID IT WAS AN INAPPROPRIATE INTERVENTION BY THE PRESIDENT SAY THESE THINGS, DO YOU BELIEVE IT WILL START TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE WAY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE PERCEIVING THIS PROCESS?

YEAH, WELL, I THINK THIS WAS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT IN THE BEGINNING THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO SEE AND HEAR THEMSELVES FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DIRECTLY INVOLVED AND I THINK TO WATCH THAT SCENE PLAY OUT TODAY FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY WATCH IT ON A HIGHLIGHT REEL IN THE EVENING NEWS, I THINK THE AVERAGE PERSON UNDERSTANDS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF WEIGHING IN ON YOU AND INSULTING YOU IN REALTIME, ESPECIALLY SOMEONE WHO, I THINK MAKES CLEAR THAT SHE'S JUST TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR HER COUNTRY AND REPRESENT HER COUNTRY AS BEST AS SHE CAN, I THINK THAT THERE'S A LEVEL OF EMPATHY THAT'S CREATED WHEN YOU SEE THAT, SO I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING IS THIS IS ALL PLAYING OUT IN PUBLIC.

IT'S NO LONGER IN PRIVATE.

AND FRANKLY, I MEAN, EVEN HEARING THE PRESIDENT CONDEMN THE PROCESS, I THINK THAT IS A PURPOSEFUL ATTEMPT TO DETRACT PEOPLE FROM THE SUBSTANCE AND THE SUBSTANCE IS THERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE AND I THINK THAT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

YOU WENT AROUND TALKING TO YOUR SWCONSTITUENTS ABOUT THIS BEFORE THE PUBLIC HEARING AND YOU FOUND SOME INTERESTING PUSHBACK IN AT LEAST ONE OF THE TOWN HALLS.

THIS WAS IN THE HEARTLAND, OF COURSE, MICHIGAN, AGAIN, IS A -. LET'S JUST PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF A MASH-UP ABOUT WHAT WAS DIRECTED AT YOU FROM YOUR CONSTITUENTS.

I WATCHED YOUR INTERVIEW ON FOX NEWS AND I THOUGHT, HOLY MACKEREL.

THIS IS A BONE DOG DEMOCRAT.

I LIKE HER.

BUT WHEN YOU FELL OFF THE CLIFF IS WHEN YOU JOINED THE -- YOU KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO TO OUR PRESIDENT.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

THE ELECTION IS COMING UP.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE HIM OUT, VOTE HIM OUT IF YOU CAN.

PATHETIC.

OUR COUNTRY, EVERYBODY IS JUST WORKING HARD IN THERE GETTING REALLY FIRED UP.

BOTH SIDES.

HOW ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN, 50 K A MONTH FOR 14 MONTHS FROM UKRAINIAN MINING COMPANY?

50,000 A MONTH, 14 MONTHS.

SO THAT WAS THEM VENTING AT YOU.

WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO TELL ANYTHING ANYMORE, IF YOU'RE HOLDING MORE OF THESE ABOUT THIS PROCESS GOING FORWARD?

OF COURSE, MICHIGAN WENT FOR THE PRESIDENT IN 2016.

IT DID AND WE JUST HAD A TOWN HALL LAST FRIDAY.

THE VIDEO YOU WERE SHOWING WAS FROM TOWN HALLS WE HAD RIGHT AFTER AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY WAS LAUNCHED.

I DID THREE TOWN HALLS IN THREE DAYS AND THEN WE JUST DID ANOTHER ONE OF OUR REGULAR TOWN HALLS THE PAST FRIDAY.

AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE STILL VERY DIVIDED ON THE ISSUE AND I HAVE PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP WITH SIGNS AND THEY'RE PROTESTING AND A LOT OF SIMILAR COMMENTS TO WHAT YOU HEARD.

IN FACT, SOME OF THE SAME EXACT PEOPLE AT THE EVENT IN HEARTLAND SHOW UP AND THEN I HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXTREMELY SUPPORTIVE.

I THINK WHERE WE JUST DIFFERED AND YOU HEARD IT IN THE CLIP, I'M A FORMER CIA OFFICER.

AND A FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL.

I DID THREE TOURS IN IRAQ ALONGSIDE THE MILITARY.

SO WE JUST HAD TO AGREE TO DISAGREE WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE OUR CIA AND OUR FBI BEING AGAINST THE PRESIDENT OR THAT THERE IS SOME SORT OF ATTEMPTED COUP AT THE PRESIDENT.

MY HUSBAND WAS IN THE MILITARY 30 YEARS.

THERE'S NOT A COUP GOING ON AGAINST THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

NOW, YOU KNOW, FOR ME, IT IS MY JOB TO REPRESENT MY ENTIRE DISTRICT AND WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS EXPRESS TO PEOPLE THAT EVEN IF THEY DON'T AGREE WITH MY DECISION TO SUPPORT AN INQUIRY, I WANTED TO COMMUNICATE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND BE OUT THERE AND AVAILABLE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE SO THAT THEY KNEW THAT EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T AGREE, THAT I WAS DOING IT BECAUSE OF A SENSE OF INTEGRITY AND BECAUSE, FOR ME, THE EVENTS RELATED TO UKRAINE WERE REALLY DIFFERENT.

IT WAS DIFFERENT THAN EVERYTHING WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IN THE YEAR PRIOR AND IT WAS ABOUT MY OATH TO PROTECT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION.

SO THAT IS THE BEST I CAN DO AND WE'VE HAD A REALLY VARIED RESPONSE FROM OUR DISTRICT BUT I'LL KEEP GOING OUT THERE AND KEEP SHOWING UP AT TOWN HALLS BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I OWE MY CONSTITUENTS AND WANT THEM TO KNOW I'M ALWAYS READY TO LISTEN.

AND FINALLY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE TRYING TO BRING TO BEAR, A BIPARTISAN RESOLUTION.

YOU MENTIONED YOUR NATIONAL SECURITY BACKGROUND AND OF COURSE, THERE'S BEEN A HUGE UPROAR INCLUDING AMONGST REPUBLICANS WHEN THE PRESIDENT PULLED SUPPORT FOR U.S. ALLIES IN THE FIGHT AGAINST ISIS IN SYRIA.

THE SYRIAN KURDS AND YOU'RE TRYING TO, WITH REPUBLICAN SUPPORT, GET A RESOLUTION TO REAFFIRM U.S. COMMITMENT TO THESE ALLIES.

THE FIRST DAY OF THE HEARINGS COINCIDED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN OF TURKEY WHOSE INCURSION WITH THESE ALLIES.

PRESIDENT ERDOGAN BROUGHT WITH HIM, APPARENTLY, A VIDEO FLIPPED OVER ON HIS iPAD, THE PRESIDENT DESCRIBED BY REPUBLICAN SENATORS AS A PROPAGANDA VIDEO AGAINST THE SYRIAN KURDS.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT AND HOW MUCH SUCCESS YOU THINK YOU'LL HAVE IN TRYING TO GET A RECOMMITMENT TO THESE ALLIES IN SYRIA.

SURE.

SO ACTUALLY, I HAD JUST GONE ON A TRIP WITH THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE JUST ABOUT A WEEK AND A HALF AGO TO TURKEY AND TO IRAQ AND OBVIOUSLY, THE CONVERSATIONS IN TURKEY WITH TURKISH OFFICIALS WERE VERY DIFFICULT.

I WORKED VERY HARD IN MY PRIOR LIFE AT THE PENTAGON TO COUNTER ISIS IN SYRIA SPECIFICALLY AND WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS THAT THIS BORDER AREA RIGHT ALONG THE BORDER OF TURKEY AND SYRIA, IT IS GOING TO BE A DISPUTED TERRITORY PROBABLY AS LONG AS I LIVE.

IT'S GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT'S CAUSING TENSION AND IT'S GOING TO BE A REAL PROBLEM FOR PERPETUITY IS MY CONCERN AND THEN MOST IMPORTANTLY, FOR AMERICAN INTERESTS IS WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE FIGHT AGAINST ISIS.

RIGHT?

WITH THE UNITED STATES PULLING BACK, WITH THE KURDS PULLING BACK.

IS THERE A RISK THAT ISIS MAY REGENERATE AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ALL HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS OF, WHEREVER WE ARE, BECAUSE OF THE THREATS TO OUR TOWNS, TO OUR CITIES.

SO IT WAS IMPORTANT TO ME IN THE FACE OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN NORTHERN SYRIA WITH ALL OF THE MINISTERS FROM ALL OF THE COUNTERISIS COALITION CALLED TO WASHINGTON.

THERE WAS ACTUALLY AN EMERGENCY SESSION THAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK AT THE MINISTER LEVEL.

SO A PRETTY BIG DEAL.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT WAS CALLED BY THE ALLIES.

THEY CALLED SECRETARY POMPEO AND SAID, HEY, YOU JUST PULLED OUT OF NORTHERN SYRIA WITHOUT TELLING US.

WE FOUND OUT FROM THE MEDIA.

WE'RE ALL THERE FOCUSED ON THE COUNTERISIS CAMPAIGN, IS THERE STILL A COALITION?

WHAT'S THE MISSION OF THE COALITION?

WHAT'S THE PLAN FOR THE FUTURE?

WHICH ARE ALL LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS.

SO THEY WERE ALL IN TOWN, TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE HECK IS THE PLAN HERE AND I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT CONGRESS, SEPARATELY, IN A VERY BIPARTISAN WAY, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, RECOGNIZE WHAT THESE COALITION ALLIES HAVE DONE FOR US, RECOGNIZE THAT THE ONLY WAY TO COUNTER GLOBAL THREATS IS WITH A GLOBAL COALITION.

WE NEED EACH OTHER AND THE IDEA WE'RE JUST GOING TO SORT OF DISMISS OUR ALLY AND NOT TAKE THEM INTO ACCOUNT WITH BIG DECISIONS LIKE NORTHERN SYRIA IS, TO ME, A BIG OUTRAGEOUS.

I WANTED TO MAKE THAT POINT FROM THE HOUSE FLOOR WITH MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES AND I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT SIGNAL.

REPRESENTATIVE SLOTKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

TALKING ABOUT ALLIES, YOVANOVITCH DESCRIBED VITAL U.S.

INTERESTS AS TRYING TO HELP SET UP A STABLE FREE DEMOCRATIC UKRAINE THAT COULD RESIST PRESSURE FROM RUSSIA.

IF ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT THAT SIDE OF THE STORY MORE, IT IS MY GUEST, RUSSIAN AMERICAN MASHA GESIN.

THANK YOU.

YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING AND LISTENING FOR THE TWO DAYS OF PUBLIC HEARINGS.

YOU JUST HEARD OUR PREVIOUS TWO GUESTS.

WHERE DOES IT ALL FALL FOR YOU IN TERMS OF THE CRUCIAL ELEMENT WHICH I THINK ALL THE WITNESSES SO FAR ARE TRYING TO SAY IS THAT THEY NEED TO, AS A VITAL PIECE OF AMERICAN POLICY, BOLSTER AND KEEP SAFE UKRAINE, PARTICULARLY AT THIS TIME OF PRESSURE FROM RUSSIA?

WELL, IT'S INTERESTING.

BECAUSE THAT'S ACTUALLY A THIRD TAKE ON THE HEARING.

RIGHT?

AND ACTING AMBASSADOR TAYLOR, TO HIS CREDIT, HAS TRIED TO SAY THAT THIS STORY IS NOT JUST ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, NOT JUST ABOUT ABUSE OF POWER IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S A STORY ABOUT UKRAINE.

BUT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU HEAR VERY MUCH IN THE HEARINGS.

AND REALLY, I THINK THERE'S TWO STORIES THAT ARE EXISTING SIDE BY SIDE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEY'RE NOT AT ALL OVERLAPPING.

THERE'S THE STORY TOLD BY THE DEMOCRATS WHICH IS THAT WE HAVE A CLEAR CUT CASE OF ABUSE OF POWER.

WE HAVE A CLEAR CUT CASE OF UNDERMINING AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY AND USING IT IN THE INTERESTS OF THE CURRENT PRESIDENT IN INTERESTS OF HIS REELECTION CAMPAIGN.

RIGHT, AND HOLDING UP MILITARY AID THAT'S APPROVED BY CONGRESS, ALSO UNDERMINING THE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.

THAT'S THE STORY THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE PROSECUTING.

REPUBLICAN STORY IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE OUT TO GET DONALD TRUMP AND USING AN OBSCURE STORY NO ONE HAS FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IN ORDER TO TRY TO GET RID OF THE PRESIDENT, WHICH IS VERY MUCH WHAT WE HEARD IN THOSE TOWN MEETINGS THAT YOU SHOWED SOME FOOTAGE OF CONGRESSWOMAN SLOTKIN'S DISTRICT PEOPLE SAYING IT'S A COUP AGAINST OUR PRESIDENT.

LET ME PLAY SOMETHING THAT AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH SAID ABOUT WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT IN VIEW OF UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.

WE SEE THE POTENTIAL IN UKRAINE.

RUSSIA SEES A CONTRAST, THE RISK.

THE HISTORY IS NOT WRITTEN YET BUT UKRAINE COULD MOVE OUT OF RUSSIA'S ORBIT.

AND NOW UKRAINE IS A BATTLEGROUND FOR GREAT POWER COMPETITION.

WITH A HOT WAR FOR THE CONTROL OF TERRITORY IN A HYBRID WAR TO CONTROL UKRAINE'S LEADERSHIP.

SO JUST FILL IN WHAT YOU THINK SHE MEANS BY OPPORTUNITY FOR THE U.S., RISK FOR RUSSIA, AND DO YOU KNOW HOW THIS IS BEING PLAYED IN RUSSIA?

WHAT ARE THEY COMMENTING ON THESE HEARINGS AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?

YOU KNOW, RUSSIA HAS SEEN UKRAINE AND HAS PORTRAYED UKRAINE AS AN ENEMY STATE, AS AN ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES IN ITS CONFLICT WITH RUSSIA AND THIS MAY SOUND SURPRISING BECAUSE WE'VE GOTTEN USED TO THINKING ABOUT PUTIN AND TRUMP AS SUCH GREAT FRIENDS.

THAT'S NOT USUALLY THE WAY RUSSIAN MEDIA PLAY IT.

RUSSIAN MEDIA HAVE BEEN FAIRLY CONSISTENT ON UKRAINE AS, AGAIN, RUSSIA AT WAR WITH UKRAINE FOR FIVE YEARS NOW AND RUSSIAN, ITS AGGRESSION ON RUSSIA'S PART.

IT'S NOT REALLY EVEN FAIR TO SAY AT WAR WITH THE UKRAINE.

RUSSIA HAS BEEN WAGING WAR AGAINST UKRAINE AND HAS ANNEXED PART OF ITS TERRITORY.

AND THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR FIVE YEARS BUT THE WAY THAT THE CONFLICT HAS BEEN SOLD TO THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC IS BY PORTRAYING UKRAINE AS A PROXY OF THE UNITED STATES.

FROM RUSSIA'S POINT OF VIEW, THIS IS VERY MUCH A BATTLE GROUND OF GREAT POWER.

THE UNITED STATES WAS UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, I THINK, QUITE RELUCTANTLY.

ACKNOWLEDGING THE CONFLICT AND TREATING UKRAINE AS A TROUBLED DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY THAT IS UNDER FROM RUSSIA.

I DON'T THINK IT EVER REALLY ACCEPTED THAT CHALLENGE OF, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHERE THE GREAT POWERS ARE AT WAR AND OF COURSE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS HARD, WREAKED ABSOLUTE HAVOC ESPECIALLY WITH THE FOREIGN POLICY IN UKRAINE BUT I WANT TO ECHO AMBASSADOR TAYLOR SAYING THIS IS A STORY ABOUT UKRAINE.

A COUNTRY OF 50 MILLION PEOPLE.

A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF WHOM RISK THEIR LIVES TO WIN THEIR CHANCE AT BUILDING A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

THEY WERE OUT IN THE STREETS DURING THE REVOLUTION, THE SECOND DEMOCRATIC REVOLUTION OF UKRAINE.

THE FIRST REVOLUTION WAS THE ORANGE REVOLUTION IN 2004.

TEN YEARS LATER IN THE WINTER OF 2 2013, 2014, UKRAINIANS SPENT THREE MONTHS IN THE STREETS IN BITTER COLD DEMANDING THAT THEIR COUNTRY TURN AWAY FROM RUSSIA AND TOWARD THE WEST AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, DEMANDING ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THEIR GOVERNMENT.

AND THEY STAGED THIS REVOLUTION AND THEY HAVE BEEN COUNTING ON THE UNITED STATES TO BE AN ALLY IN BUILDING A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY THERE AND THE UNITED STATES HAS REALLY BEEN PRETTY CONSISTENTLY FAILING THEM BUT NEVER QUITE AS SHAMEFULLY AS NOW.

OBVIOUSLY, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID GREEN LIGHT THE ANTI-TANK WEAPONS THEY NEEDED SO BADLY BUT I DO ALSO WANT TO PLAY JUST A LITTLE BIT OF A BITE, AGAIN, A TESTIMONY FROM AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SHE ENCAPSULATES A LOT OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID AND PERHAPS IT'S IMPORTANT FOR AMERICAN PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY UKRAINE IS SO IMPORTANT.

SO LET'S JUST PLAY THIS.

SUPPORTING UKRAINE IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

IT'S ALSO THE SMART THING TO DO.

IF RUSSIA PREVAIL AND UKRAINE FALLS TO RUSSIAN DOMINION, WE CAN EXPECT TO SEE OTHER ATTEMPTS BY RUSSIA TO EXPAND ITS TERRITORY AND ITS INFLUENCE.

JUST PUT THAT INTO PERSPECTIVE FOR OUR VIEWERS.

THE PUTIN SENSE OF WHAT'S HIS.

PUTIN'S SENSE OF WHAT'S HIS IS DUAL.

ONE, HE BELIEVES THE SOVIET UNION NEVER SHOULD HAVE COLLAPSED AND RUSSIA HAS IMPERIAL CLAIM TO TERRITORY THAT WAS PART OF SOVIET, PART OF THE SOVIET EMPIRE AND EVEN BEFORE THAT PART OF THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

THAT APPLIES TO UKRAINE AND GEORGIA.

I WOULD SAY HIS TERRITORIAL AMBITIONS AND AMBITIONS OF INFLUENCE GO FURTHER THAN THAT AND OF COURSE, WE SEE THAT IN SYRIA.

HIS ULTIMATE GOAL TO REESTABLISH RUSSIA AS A SUPER POWER IN A BIPOLAR WORLD THAT HAS TO BE CONSULTED AND TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT AT EVERY IMPORTANT JUNCTURE ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WHICH IS ANOTHER REASON THAT PUTIN WAS SO UPSET WHEN UKRAINE WAS GOING TO SIGN IN 2013 A FAIRLY INCONSEQUENTIAL AGREEMENT BASICALLY PROTOCOL OF INTENTIONS WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION WHICH IS WHAT PRECIPITATED THE THEN PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE TURNED AWAY TOWARD PUTIN AND THE REVOLUTION.

RUSSIA HAS WAGED TWO WAR IN ITS IMMEDIATE VICINITY UNDER PUTIN.

ONE WAS IN GEORGIA IN 2008.

THE UNITED STATES BASICALLY CLOSED ITS EYES TO RUSSIA'S ANNEXATION OF A THIRD OF GEORGIAN TERRITORY WHICH REMAINS OCCUPIED.

THEN IN 2014, IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE REVOLUTION IN UKRAINE, RUSSIA TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO STEP IN, ANNEX CRIMEA AND ALSO START WAGING WAR IN THE EAST OF UKRAINE.

AND THAT WAR IS STILL ONGOING AND THEN ANNEXATION, BASICALLY, THE ANNEXATION RECOGNIZED AS LEGAL BY A COUPLE OF ROGUE STATES AROUND THE WORLD, NOT BY THE UNITED STATES.

BUT PUTIN'S HOPE, I THINK, WHEN TRUMP WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT WAS VERY MUCH THAT TRUMP WOULD BE ISOLATIONIST ENOUGH AND PUTIN ADMIRING ENOUGH TO STEP AWAY FROM UKRAINE ALTOGETHER AND TO RECOGNIZE RUSSIA'S DOMINION OVER CRIMEA.

THAT HASN'T QUITE HAPPENED, BUT WE'RE AT RISK OF SEEING THAT HAPPEN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE INCREDIBLE TO THINK THAT THIS IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY IS REALLY PUTTING IN SHARP RELIEF FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES AND IMPORTANT TO REALIZE IT'S NOT JUST A POLITICAL DRAMA PLAYING OUT, BUT IT REALLY DOES HAVE REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES.

AMERICA'S, OF COURSE, NO STRANGER TO IMPEACHMENT AGAINST A PRESIDENT BUT IS THIS ONE DIFFERENT?

HISTORIAN RICK CARLSTEEN CALLED THE CHRONICLE EXTRAORDINAIRE AND OW AUTHOR OF 'NIXON LAND' AND ASKS, WHAT CAN THE NIXON AND CLINTON SCANDALS TELL US ABOUT THE HEARINGS WE'RE CURRENTLY WITNESSING?

SAT DOWN WITH OUR CONTRIBUTOR ALLISON STEWART TO PROVIDE A HISTORIC LAND AND MUCH NEEDED PERSPECTIVE TO THE ONGOING IMPEACHMENT HEARING.

RICK PERLSTEIN, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT PRESIDENCY, EVERYTHING IS SO VERY UNPRECEDENTED, HOW SHOULD WE BE LOOKING AT THE HEARINGS?

SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THEM IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN WE'VE BEEN CONDITIONED TO THINK ABOUT BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THE NIXON HEARINGS AND THE CLINTON HEARINGS?

ONE OF THE BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN WHAT RICHARD NIXON WAS UP TO IN 1972, 1973 AND 1974 AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS UP TO IS THAT WATERGATE WAS REALLY ABOUT RICHARD NIXON TRYING TO HIDE EVIDENCE.

I MEAN, THERE WAS A BURGLARY.

THE BURGLARS WERE PAID OFF AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY, THE BURGLARS BASICALLY PERJURED THEMSELVES AND HAD PROMISES OF CLEMENCY AND EVENTUALLY CAME OUT A LOT OF THIS STUFF WAS ON TAPE AND NIXON WAS DESPERATE FOR THOSE TAPES NOT TO BE EXPOSED.

THE MOST DRAMATIC MOMENT WE REMEMBER FROM THE WATERGATE HEARINGS WAS THE SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE WHEN THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR SAID YOU HAVE TO TURN THESE TAPES OVER AND NIXON FIRED THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, SO TRYING TO HIDE EVIDENCE.

TRUMP, ON THE OTHER HAND, PERFECTLY WILLING TO REVEAL EVIDENCE, PERFECTLY WILLING TO PUBLICIZE THE PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT AND STRIKINGLY ENOUGH WILLING TO BASICALLY ADMIT TO WHAT HE'S ACCUSED OF IN PUBLIC AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THE REASON THAT'S SO MUCH MORE FRIGHTENING THAN WHAT NIXON DID IS BECAUSE NIXON THOUGHT IF THE EVIDENCE CAME OUT, HE WOULD BE JUDGED GUILTY AND HAVE TO LEAVE OFFICE.

TRUMP KNOWS EVEN WITH THE EVIDENCE OUT, HE'LL STILL HAVE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE ON THE GROUND AND PUBLIC OFFICIALS WHO WILL NOT ADMIT HE DID ANYTHING WRONG AND NO INTENTION OF EVER LEAVING OFFICE.

SO THAT'S A REAL DISTINCTION AND MORE SYSTEMIC DISTINCTION.

IT SPEAKS TO THE RISE OF AN ENTIRE POLITICAL PARTY, NOT JUST A BAD ACTOR.

DON'T FORGET THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY BIPARTISAN AFFAIR AND EVEN THE DEMOCRATS IN CHARGE OF IT, SAM IRVING, THE NORTH CAROLINA DEMOCRAT WHO BASICALLY RAN THE SELECT COMMITTEE WITH THESE VERY DRAMATIC TELEVISED HEARINGS IN THE SUMMER OF 1973.

HE WAS THE DEMOCRAT WHO VOTED WITH RICHARD NIXON THE MOST OF ANY DEMOCRATS.

SO PEOPLE WERE REALLY WILLING TO PUSH ASIDE THEIR POLITICAL LOYALTIES IN SERVICE OF THEIR OATH OF OFFICE.

I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME CLICHES WHICH ARE TRUE AND ONE OFTEN IS IT'S THE COVER-UP, NOT THE CRIME.

SO YOU MADE THE POINT ABOUT NIXON.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS, THE HEARINGS ABOUT OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, ABUSE OF POWER, CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS.

CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED FOR PERJURY FOR OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE.

SO DO YOU THINK, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE IDEA THIS, THERE'S AN ALLEGED COVER-UP ELEMENT TO THIS OF THESE TRANSCRIPTS BEING SENT TO SOME SERVER SOMEWHERE SO THEY WOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE DISCOVERED.

RIGHT, THAT'S ONE ELEMENT.

JUST ABOUT THE CALL AND THE FAVOR?

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT PRIVY TO THE DEMOCRATS' DELIBERATIONS BUT IT DOES SEEM VERY STRIKING THAT, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE IN MIND YET, BUT IT DOES SEEM STRIKING THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO KEEP THIS BRIEF AS NARROW AS POSSIBLE.

WATERGATE WAS VERY DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THERE WAS A COMMITMENT TO BASICALLY BUILD A CASE AGAINST THE NIXON PRESIDENCY ITSELF.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY FINALLY HAD THE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS IN THE HOUSE IN 1974, A YEAR AFTER THE SENATE WATERGATE HEARINGS ON TV, THEY HAD LIKE SIX OR SEVEN DIFFERENT TASK FORCES, LOOKING AT ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

LOOKING AT ILLEGAL BOMBING OF CAMBODIA.

THEY WERE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN DONATIONS IN EXCHANGE FOR PRICE SUPPORTS FROM THE MILL INDUSTRY AND PEOPLE WERE SO GUNG HO TO FIND MALFEASANCE IN THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION.

ONE GUY NAMED LOWELL FUNDED HIS OWN INVESTIGATORY STAFF AND ALL THROUGH THE HEARINGS, EVERY TIME SOMETHING NEW WAS DISCOVERED, EVERY TIME A NEW AVENUE WAS OPENED UP, IT SEEMED TO REVEAL MORE MALFEASANCE.

IT WAS A METASTASIZING INVESTIGATION.

SO BY THE TIME IT WAS OVER, PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO GRASP THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION AS ITS ENTIRETY, THAT IT WAS ROTTEN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM.

AND THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM THIS IDEA THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO MAKE THIS VERY SIMPLE STORY ABOUT THIS ONE PHONE CALL AND THIS ONE ACT OF MALFEASANCE AND NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP PAYING OFF FOREIGN STARS AND VIOLATING LAWS AND NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT CHILDREN IN CAGES AND THE SUPREME COURT CASE WHICH HE ENDED THE DACCA PROGRAM IN WAYS THAT WERE HIGHLY IRREGULAR.

YOU COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON AND THE WAY NANCY PELOSI AND ADAM SHIFF HAVE CHOSEN TO DO THIS SEEMS TO BE A VERY KIND OF DISCIPLINED TIGHT STORY.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE SIMILARITIES CULTURALLY BETWEEN WHAT WAS GOING ON AROUND THE NIXON HEARINGS AND WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THE TRUMP HEARINGS?

I SEE LOTS OF DIFFERENCES.

YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND IN 1973, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS BEGINNING TO FADE, YOU HAD MUCH MORE TRUST IN THE MAJOR INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICAN LIFE.

YOU HAD THE VIETNAM WAR AND YOU HAD SEEN WHAT WAS CALLED THE CREDIBILITY GAP, ON THE PART OF PRESIDENT LYNDON JOHNSON.

PEOPLE SAID, WE NOMINATED THIS BOY SCOUT, RICHARD NIXON WHO WOULD NEVER SWEAR AND NEVER TELL A LIE.

THE CANDIDATE OF MIDDLE AMERICA, WE CALL THE SILENT MAJORITY, AND HE'S GOING TO PUT IT ON THE PATH AND MAYBE END THE VIETNAM WAR.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY WERE VOTING FOR NIXON IN ORDER TO END THE VIETNAM WAR AND ONCE IT CAME OUT, AND AGAIN, THESE TELEVISED HEARINGS THAT WERE EXTREMELY MELODRAMATIC, IT WAS BASICALLY LIKE A MOB DEN.

BRIBES, PASSING AROUND MONEY IN BAGS AND TELEPHONE BOOTHS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

I THINK THAT KIND OF DISILLUSIONMENT WITH OUR LEADERS WAS SOMETHING WE CAN NEVER EXPERIENCE AGAIN BECAUSE WE'VE KIND OF ALREADY LOST THAT INNOCENCE.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF TRUST IN THE PRESIDENT AND IN THE PRESIDENCY.

AND OF COURSE, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF OTHER DIFFERENCES, THE FACT THAT YOU HAD THE THREE NETWORKS AND MUCH FEWER SOURCES OF INFORMATION AND THAT THE KIND OF STORIES, ONE HEARD ABOUT SOCIETY WERE MUCH MORE LIMITED, RIGHT?

IT WAS NOT AS PLURALISTIC.

SO THAT WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

I THINK THE SIMILARITY IS, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT BECOMES ALMOST A LITMUS TEST FOR PROFOUND DIVISIONS IN HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD, THAT BASICALLY YOU COULD DIVIDE THE COUNTRY IN TWO BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THAT RICHARD NIXON WAS AN EXAMPLE OF ALL THAT WAS GOOD AND TRUE, A LARGE GROUP THAT GOT SMALLER AND SMALLER BUT STILL WAS AROUND 30% JUST LIKE FOR TRUMP NOW AND ANOTHER GROUP THAT THOUGHT RICHARD NIXON WAS THE EXEMPLAR OF ALL THAT WAS FOUL AND GROSS AND OFF THE TRACK WITH AMERICAN LIFE AND CERTAINLY, THAT'S THE CASE WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I WANT TO ASK ANOTHER CULTURAL QUESTION.

AFTER NIXON RESIGNED, CONSERVATIVES WERE ABLE TO TAKE THE WATERGATE, THE GATE PART OF IT, THE SUFFIX AND USE IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

EVERYTHING BECAME A GATE.

SO I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK THIS HAS BECOME TRANSCRIPTGATE FOR THE REPUBLICANS OR UKRAINEGATE FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

MAYBE WE'RE ALL GATED OUT?

I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT REALLY SPEAKS TO THE LACK OF SPECIFICATION THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE SHOWN IN TURNING THIS INTO A STICKY PUBLIC NARRATIVE.

THE CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS ON TELEVISION HAVE BEEN POLITICAL THEATRE.

THE McCARTHY HEARINGS WERE ON TV, THAT WAS POLITICAL THEATRE.

WHEN THERE ARE MOB HEARINGS IN THE 1950s, THAT WAS POLITICAL THEATRE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN SENATOR FULBRIGHT HAD VIETNAM HEARINGS IN 1966, THAT WAS SUCH AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL THEATRE, LYNDON JOHNSON SAID TURN THIS OFF, PUT IT BACK ON THE RERUN.

EVER SINCE THE '70s, THE WHOLE GATE THING WAS THE BRILLIANT STRATAGEM OF ONE FIGURE, WILLIAM SAPPHIRE, WHO HAD BEEN A NIXON SPEECH-WRITER AND BEFORE HE WAS A NIXON SPEECH WRITER, HE WAS A PUBLIC RELATIONS PROFESSIONAL.

HE WAS THE GUY IN CHARGE OF, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE THAT A COMPANY GOT GOOD PRESS AND HE ACTUALLY WHERE A BOOK ABOUT HOW TO MANIPULATE USING THE MEDIA IN THE EARLY 1960s THAT I READ AND IT'S VERY FASCINATING.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS HE WAS ABLE TO DO, SUBSEQUENTLY, HE BECAME A 'NEW YORK TIMES' COLUMNIST AND THAT, BY THE WAY, WAS THE PRODUCT OF A VERY SOPHISTICATED PUBLIC RELATIONS CAMPAIGN BY RICHARD NIXON IN WHICH HE BASICALLY WENT TO THE MEDIA, HE WENT TO THE NEWSPAPERS, HE WENT TO THE TV STATIONS AND HE SAID, HERE'S A LIBERAL BIAS IN THE MEDIA AND HE THREATENED THEM.

HE SPECIFICALLY THREATENED THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WASHINGTON POST, SAYING UNLESS THEY WERE FAIRER TO HIM, HE WOULD TAKE AWAY THEIR BROADCAST LICENSES.

THAT WAS ONE EXAMPLE OF MALFEASANCE, RIGHT?

BUT THAT WAS WHAT CAUSED A LOT OF NEWSPAPERS TO VERY CONSCIOUSLY HIRE MORE CONSERVATIVE AND NIXON-FRIENDLY COLUMNISTS AND WILLIAM SAPPHIRE WAS ONE OF THEM.

JIMM HE TRIED TO DISCREDIT PRESIDENT CARTER AND ONE OF THE WAYS HE DID IT IS HE WOULD AFFIX THE WORD GATE TO THESE SCANDALS.

KOREAGATE.

HE HAD A BUDGET DIRECTOR WHO WAS HIS BEST FRIEND WHO GOT INVOLVED IN SOME FINANCIAL SHENANIGANS AND IT WAS LANCEGATE AND THAT WAS HIS WAY OF KIND OF TROLLING THE REST OF THE PRESS BUT PART OF IT IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT REALLY GAME PLANNED IT IN A WAY TO MAKE IT STICKY IN THIS MEDIA ERA.

YOU WROTE THIS GREAT, REALLY INTERESTING SENTENCE.

TRUE PATRIOTISM TAKES RISKS AND JUSTICE REQUIRES DISRUPTION.

THAT'S RIGHT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT NANCY PELOSI WHO'S DONE SOME GREAT THINGS OVER THE YEARS AND I RESPECT HER A HECK OF A LOT HAS SAID IS THAT SHE, WHEN SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, MAYBE TRUMP WOULD JUST IMPEACH HIMSELF AND WE DIDN'T WANT TO PUSH THIS THING, THE ONLY WAY SHE WANTED TO PURSUE AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY IS THAT THEY COULD SOMEHOW CONVINCE REPUBLICANS WITH THE WEIGHT OF THE FACTS, BECAUSE OTHERWISE IT WOULD BE TOO DIVISIVE.

WELL, YOU KNOW, THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS DIVISIVE.

THE SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT WAS DIVISIVE.

JUSTICE IS DIVISIVE.

YOU KNOW WHY IT'S DIVISIVE?

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT JUSTICE ARE GOING TO MAKE US THINK AND I THINK WE'RE IN ONE OF THE EXISTENTIAL MOVEMENTS FOR THE NATION WHERE WE'RE FACING A CHOICE.

EITHER WE GET DOWN TO BRASS TACKS AND FIGHT FOR THE VALUES THAT THE NATION WAS FOUNDED ON OR WE WORRY ABOUT DIVISIVENESS, RIGHT?

AND I THINK OUR REPUBLIC IS STRONG ENOUGH.

I THINK OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO ACHIEVE JUSTICE AND I THINK THAT'S THE VALUE WE HAVE TO HOLD MOST DEAR AT A TIME LIKE THIS.

IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE WHY PEOPLE WANT TO THINK ABOUT THESE HEARINGS IN TERMS OF THE CLINTON HEARINGS OR THE NIXON HEARINGS, BUT PERHAPS IS THERE SOME OTHER ABUSE OF POWER OR REACH WHICH IS MORE ANALOGOUS TO THIS SITUATION?

I'VE BEEN THINKING A LOT OF SOMETHING WE'VE MANAGED TO FORGET AND THAT'S THE IRAN CONTRA SCANDAL THE REASON THERE'S PARALLELS TO THAT SCANDAL IS THERE WAS ANOTHER TIME WITH A SMALL GROUP OF FIGURES LIKE RICHARD AND OLIVER AND JOHN POINDEXTER BASICALLY IN THE BASEMENT O.

WHITE HOUSE CREATING THEIR OWN FOREIGN POLICY AND DOING ENRON WITH THE CONGRESS AND WE COULDN'T SEND MILITARY AID TO THE REBELS FIGHTING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT IN NICARAGUA AND OF COURSE, THEY GOT THE MONEY IN ORDER TO DO THIS BY SELLING MISSILES TO IRAN WHICH WAS HOLDING AMERICANS HOSTAGE AND IT WAS A DISASTER BECAUSE THEY WOULD TAKE THE MISSILES AND THEY WOULDN'T RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.

NOW THE REASON THEY WERE DOING THIS AND THE REASON RONALD REAGAN AUTHORIZED THIS WAS BECAUSE OF THEIR ANTI-COMMUNIST IDEALS.

IT WASN'T JUST THE ATTEMPT TO WIN THE ELECTION.

IT WAS EXTRAORDINARILY UNPOPULAR.

THEY DID IT BECAUSE RONALD REAGAN WOULD SHOW UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AND GIVE SPEECHES ASKING TO SUPPORT CONTRA AND AMERICANS JUST WEREN'T INTERESTED.

INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, YOU DON'T HEAR PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THIS EVEN THOUGH THERE'S A PARALLEL.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IS I THINK PEOPLE REALLY DURING THE INVESTIGATION OF IRAN CONTRA LOST THE STOMACH FOR TAKING THE INVESTIGATION TO ITS UTTER MOST.

THERE WAS NO IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY.

THE IDEA WAS WE'D ALREADY TAKEN DOWN ONE PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF MALFEASANCE.

THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WON'T STAND FOR IT IF WE TRY TO DO IT AGAIN AND THEN WHEN, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN REAGAN OFFICIALS LIKE WEINBERGER THE DEFENSE SECRETARY WAS CON VICTI VICTED OF A CRIME, I'M AFRAID THAT WAS A VERY DANGEROUS SIGNAL TO ELITES IN THIS COUNTRY THAT BASICALLY SOME INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICA ARE TOO BIG TO FAIL.

PEOPLE WILL NOT TAKE THEM ON BECAUSE OF FEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, BREAKING THOSE EGGS TO MAKE THE OMELETTE OF JUSTICE.

IT'S JUST TOO DIVISIVE AN IDEA.

DOES THIS MOMENT NOW, RIGHT NOW, REMIND YOU OF ANY OTHER MOMENT IN HISTORY THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMPEACHMENT?

WELL, CERTAINLY, REMINDS ME OF 1850s WHERE ONE PART OF THE COUNTRY, NAMELY THE CONFEDERATE SOUTH WAS SO ABSORBED IN PRAXISMS OF RACE THEY DIDN'T CONSIDER THE REST OF THE COUNTRY'S POLITICS.

LEGITIMATE VERY VIOLENT TIME.

SOUTHERNERS WERE BEATING UP MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.

BANNING ANTI-SLAVERY BOOKS.

BASICALLY THREATENING TO LEAVE THE UNION IF A LIBERAL PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED AND OF COURSE, ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS ELECTED AND THEY DID LEAVE THE UNION AND FIRED ON FORT SUMNER AND MADE A WAR TO PRESERVE SLAVERY.

THE IDEA OF OUR TIME IS THAT ONE GROUP OF AMERICANS IS ILLEGITIMATE.

I BEGAN DOCUMENTING REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES TALKING ABOUT LIB ERALS AND DEMOCRATS AS IF THEY'RE NOT LEGITIMATE GOVERNING PARTNERS BACK IN 2007.

WE'VE SEEN THE PARTY BECOME MORE AND MORE RADICAL, MORE INVESTED IN THE IDEA THAT THEIR RIGHTEOUS RAGE AND WISH FOR POWER SHOULD TRUMP ALL NORMS AND RULES THAT THIS IS WHERE WE'RE AT.

WE'RE AT A PLACE WHERE THE PRESIDENT WILL SHOW UP ON STAGE, AT A FRACKING CONFERENCE IN PITTSBURGH, AN AMERICAN WILL EXERCISE HIS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO PROTEST THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRESIDENT WITH A BUNCH OF BURLY MEN SITTING BEHIND HIM WEARING HARD HATS WILL LOOK IN THE CAMERA AND SAY, WE'VE GOT SOME VERY TOUGH GUYS HERE.

BETTER NOT DO THAT.

INTIMATING VIOLENCE AGAINST AMERICANS FOR EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

THAT'S A VERY SCARY THING AND THAT'S PART OF THAT TRUMPIAN MALFEASANCE WE HAVE TO TAKE ON IN ITS ENTIRETY WHILE WE HAVE THE ATTENTION AND WHILE THESE HEARINGS ARE GOING ON.

SO RICK, AFTER NIXON RESIGNED AND PRESIDENT FORD SAID OUR LONG NATIONAL NIGHTMARE IS OVER, WAS IT?

DOES IT GIVE US ANY SENSE OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN NEXT FOR US HERE?

WHEN PRESIDENT FORD CHOSE TO PARDON RICHARD NIXON FOR ANY CRIME HE MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT, AND WE'RE TALKING ANY CRIME.

IF IT WAS FOUND OUT HE HAD DONE SOMETHING AWFUL, FLUSHED OUT, HE WOULD BE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT CRIME.

AND GERALD FORD SAID THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER.

I'M AFRAID THAT WAS KIND O F A WILLFUL WISHING AWAY OF CONFLICTS THAT WERE DEEP AND REALLY NEEDED TO BE RESOLVED IN THAT KIND OF WAY.

I THINK THAT WAS, AGAIN, ONE OF THE SIGNALS TO FUTURE GENERATIONS OF POWERFUL MALEFACTORS THEY WERE TOO BIG TO FAIL, RIGHT?

THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH AWFUL THINGS AND THE PREDECESSOR VAC -- PRESERVATION OF THE SYSTEM WOULD BE VALUED OVER JUSTICE.

RICK PERLSTEIN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

CERTAINLY MANY LESSONS THERE AS THE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS CONTINUE.

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