Lesley Stahl Talks Trump, Watergate and Impeachment

> NOW, OUR NEXT GUEST IS A VETERAN JOURNALIST WITH A CAREER OF SCOOPS AND AWARDING WINNING REPORTING.

LESLEY STALL HAS BEEN A PART OF '60 MINUTES' IN NEARLY THREE DECADES.

SHE GOT THE FIRST INTERVIEW WITH TRUMP AFTER HIS WIN IN 2016.

SHE TELLS WHAT HE SAID THEN.

EARLY ON, THE BEGINNING OF YOUR CAREER, YOU'RE REALLY YOUNG AND GET PUT ON THIS THIRD RATE BURGLARY IN WASHINGTON, YOU'RE COVERING THE WATERGATE BURGLARY.

FIRST TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

I WAS BRAND-NEW, THE YOUNGEST -- I DON'T MEAN THE YOUNGEST BY AGE, BUT THE NEWEST.

I WAS REALLY NEW IN THE CBS WASHINGTON BUREAU.

THIS IS BREAKING.

THE BREAKING TOOK PLACE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 1972 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

IT WAS SIMILAR.

THERE WERE A LOT OF DEMOCRATS RUNNING IN THE PRIMARIES JUST LIKE NOW.

SO, OUR BUREAU WAS EMPTY.

ALL THESE CORRESPONDENTS WERE ASSIGNED TO ONE DEMOCRAT OR ANOTHER, SO THEY SENT ME TO THE BREAK IN BECAUSE IT WAS NOTHING.

SO, LET'S SEND THE NEW GIRL.

SHE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING BUT THAT'S OKAY BECAUSE THIS IS NOTHING, A NOTHING BURGER, A LOCAL BNE.

BUT IT WAS AT DEMOCRATIC HEAD QUARTERS, SO I WENT.

AND BOB WOODWARD TELLS YOU AT THE HEARING STAY WITH THIS STORY, KID.

FIRST THE ARRAIGNMENT.

THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE BURGLARS.

WHAT THEY HAD WITH THEM WERE THESE $100 BILLS IN CONSECUTIVE NUMBERS AND WEIRD PASSPORTS, PHONY PASSPORTS.

AND WOODWARD LOOKED AT ME.

WE WERE THE ONLY TWO REPORTERS IN THE COURTROOM.

THAT'S HOW INSIGNIFICANT.

YOU AND BOB WOODWARD, TWO JUNIOR PEOPLE.

HE SAYS DON'T LET THEM TAKE THE STORY AWAY FROM YOU.

COMPARE IT TO WHAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW.

THERE'S A LOT OF SIMILARITIES TO ME.

AND THE MAIN ONE IS THAT THE REPUBLICANS REALLY DID STICK WITH NIXON UP UNTIL THE END.

IT'S SO SIMILAR, AND I'M WATCHING THE REPUBLICANS DEFEND HIM AND ATTACK THE WITNESSES, AND I'M SEEING WATERGATE, SEEING THE WATERGATE COMMITTEE, THE SENATE COMMITTEE.

THE REPUBLICANS STUCK WITH HIM INCLUDING HOWARD BAKER.

HE SAID WHEN DID HE KNOW?

WHAT DID HE KNOW?

WHAT DID THE PRESIDENT KNOW?

WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?

MAINLY WE FOUND OUT LATER, HIS COUNSEL WAS GETTING QUESTIONS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO, PEOPLE HAVE A MISSED MEMORY OF WHAT HAPPENED BACK THEN.

THE IDEA THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT IN OUR TRIBE, WE'RE NOT DIFFERENT.

IF YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN AND YOU VOTED FOR THAT PRESIDENT, YOU'RE FOR THAT PRESIDENT.

IT HAPPENED WITH CLINTON.

THE DEMOCRATS STUCK WITH HIM UNTIL THE END.

TELL ME WHAT CAUSED THE REPUBLICANS BACK THEN TO FINALLY BREAK FROM NIXON.

WASN'T UNTIL THE TAPE.

THE SUPREME COURT RULED THAT NIXON HAD TO TURN OVER THE TRANSCRIPTS OF THE TAPES AND THE TAPES THEMSELVES.

AND THERE IT WAS.

HE WAS IN ON THE COVER UP FROM DAY ONE USING THE CIA TO SUPPRESS THE FBI FROM INVESTIGATING.

IT WAS ALL SPELLED OUT IN THE TRANSCRIPTS.

THERE WAS NO ESCAPE.

AND SENIOR REPUBLICANS FROM THE SENATE BROKE AND WENT TO NIXON AND SAID THE REPUBLICANS WILL NOT BE WITH YOU IF THERE'S A TRIAL.

AND THAT WAS THE END -- AND THE END WASN'T EVEN A VOTE.

THE END WAS NIXON SAYING OKAY, THE GAME'S UP.

WE HAVE A TRANSCRIPT NOW ON THE PHONE CALLS.

DO YOU THINK TIMES HAVE CHANGED, OR DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MIGHT CAUSE SOME REPUBLICANS TO BREAK EVENTUALLY?

YOU KNOW, I CAN'T SAY THE REPUBLICANS WILL NEVER BREAK.

YOU KNOW, THESE THINGS ARE CUMULATIVE.

WATERGATE TOOK YEARS TO UNFOLD, YEARS.

THOSE HEARINGS WERE WEEKS AND WEEKS AND WEEKS -- YOU KNOW, THOSE WATERGATE HEARINGS WERE SOMETHING LIKE 15 WEEKS.

WE'VE HAD ONE WEEK SO FAR.

SO, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CUMULATION IS GOING TO DO.

OF COURSE IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO BREAK.

DID THE PUBLIC START BREAKING AGAINST NIXON AND THEN THE REPUBLICANS AND THE SENATE FOLLOW THE PUBLIC?

IS THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED FIRST?

YOU MEAN IN WATERGATE?

YEAH.

NO.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE TAPE.

YOU KNOW, THE BIG, BIG, BIG DIFFERENCE IS MEDIA.

THAT'S THE BIG, BIG DIFFERENCE.

IN THOSE DAYS, THERE WERE ONLY THREE NETWORKS.

EVERY DAY THE PUBLIC WAS HEARING THE SAME ANALYSIS.

HEARING THE HEARINGS BUT HEARING THE SAME ANALYSIS.

WE WERE STILL OPERATING UNDER THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE.

THERE WAS NO OPINION WAY OFF TO THE RIGHT OR WAY OFF TO THE LEFT.

IT WAS REALLY AS MUCH AS THESE PEOPLE COULD HANDLE, THE ANCHOR PEOPLE, DOWN THE MIDDLE.

TODAY, YOU KNOW, YOU GO TO YOUR LITTLE TRIBE AREA AND LISTEN TO WHO YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO.

THE DIVISIONS ARE MUCH, MUCH STARKER.

THERE ISN'T A MIDDLE ANYMORE ANYWAY TO SWAY.

SO, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE ARE SEEING REALLY WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE.

DURING YEAR CAREER, YOU TRIED TO ALWAYS PLAY IT AS A STORY TELLER.

WALTER, I AM JUST BEING TOLD BY A HIGH LIEUTENANT, THEY'RE ALL YELLING AROUND ME.

WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS SEE A PATTERN OF TERRORISM WHICH THEY BELIEVE MAY BE AN ATTEMPT TO TEST THE WILL OF PRESIDENT REAGAN AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

IEM 'M JUST GOING TO TELL YO THE STORY.

YOU FIGURE IT OUT.

DO YOU AVOID GOING ON THE TALKING HEAD SHOWS LIKE THE CABLE NIGHTLY SHOWS.

I DO VERY LITTLE, BUT HERE I AM.

PBS.

I DO NOT GO ON PANELS.

I WAS RAISED THAT WAY.

SO WERE YOU.

WE CAME INTO THIS BUSINESS, PARTICULARLY IF YOU'RE IN TELEVISION.

AS I MENTIONED THERE WAS A FAMOUS DOCTRINE.

WE WERE UNDER REGULATION TO SHOW BOTH SIDES AND THAT WAS HOW I GREW UP.

THAT'S IN MY BLOOD, MY DNA.

AND I WANT TO STAY THAT BECAUSE BECAUSE ON '60 MINUTES' WE DO HAVE AN AUDIENCE THAT BELIEVES US AND WE TRY VERY HARD TO BE OLD FASHIONED IN THAT WAY.

YOU'VE ACTUALLY INTERVIEWED TRUMP TWICE -- THREE TIMES.

IS IT TRUE GENERAL MATTIS SAID TO YOU THE REASON FOR NATO AND ALL THESE ALLIANCES IS TO PREVENT WORLD WAR III?

NO, IT'S NOT THREE.

TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS LIKE AND WHY HE KEEPS COMING BACK TO BE INTERVIEWED BY YOU.

I THINK HE SEES '60 MINUTES' AS FAIR AND HE HAS SAID SO TO US.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO DISCREDIT HIM.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO EMBARRASS HIM.

WE PLAY IT STRAIGHT.

AND HE BELIEVES WE HAVE CREDIBILITY.

SO, HE DOES -- AT LEAST HE HAS IN THE PAST.

WE'LL SEE ABOUT THE FUTURE.

BUT HE HAS IN THE PAST FELT THIS WAS THE PLACE TO GO FOR BIG MOMENTS.

SO, HE CAME ON RIGHT BEFORE OR DURING THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION, AND HE CAME ON RIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION AND THEN WE GOT THE FIRST INTERVIEW WHEN HE WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CONTINUALLY ATTACKING THE PRESS.

TELL ME HOW MUCH IT'S UNDERMINING THE AUTHORITY OF THE PRESS AND HOW WORRIED YOU ARE ABOUT THAT.

WELL, NIXON, LET'S GO BACK THERE A MINUTE.

IT WAS WITH HUMOR.

AND IT HAD AN AFFECT.

WATERGATE HAD A BOOMERANG AFFECT.

AH, THE PRESS WAS THE HERO.

WOODWARD AND BERNSTEIN WERE THE HEROES, AND WE WENT INTO A GOLDEN AGE WHERE THE PUBLIC THOUGHT WE WERE REDEEMED.

TRUMP, IT'S A MORE INSIDIOUS GNAWING AWAY BY THE REPETITION OVER AND OVER AND OVER WE'RE FAKE AND WE'RE OUT TO GET HIM.

AND I JUST -- HE JUST DID A RALLY THE OTHER DAY IN WHICH HE SAID THOSE PEOPLE BEHIND THE LINE.

ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE.

ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE.

AND IT HAS BEEN STARTINGLY AND STRESSINGLY EFFECTIVE.

EFFECTIVE.

THE PUBLIC DOESN'T BELIEVE US.

YOU ASKED HIM WHY HE DID THAT AND HE TOLD YOU HIS MOTIVATION.

WHEN I DID THE FIRST INTERVIEW, BEFORE I DID THE INTERVIEW, WE WENT UP TO HIS OFFICE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION BEFOREHAND.

I GUESS I WAS BEING AUDITIONED.

IN THAT CONVERSATION, I SAID, YOU KNOW, HE HAD JUST WON THE NOMINATION -- HE WAS ABOUT TO WIN THE NOMINATION.

AND I SAID YOU HAVE TO STOP BEATING UP ON THE PRESS.

IT'S GETTING TIRING AND BORING.

YOU DO IT ALL THE TIME.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF UNAPPEALING, I SAID.

AND HE SAID I'LL TELL YOU WHY I DO IT.

I DO IT SO THAT WHEN YOU SAY NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT ME, THE PUBLIC WON'T BELIEVE YOU.

I THOUGHT WOW.

IT'S A STRATEGY.

IT'S THOUGHT OUT.

HE IS GOING TO DIMINISH HIS CRITICS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE PRESS, OR SHOULD I SAY WE IN THE PRESS, PLAY INTO IT, THAT WE CAUSED THIS PROBLEM BY ACTUALLY BEING OPI OPINIONATED MORE THAN WE USED TO BE?

YES.

I DO.

IT'S TURNED OUT TO HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE TO APPEAR ON ALL THESE CABLE SHOWS.

I WATCH MY COLLEAGUES, 'THE NEW YORK TIMES,' 'THE WASHINGTON POST,' TRYING SO HARD TO PLAY IT DOWN THE MIDDLE, BUT YOU'RE IN THE SOUP.

YOU'RE ON 'MORNING JOE' OR YOU'RE ON ONE OF THE FOX SHOWS.

YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING.

YOU'RE JUST IN THE ENVIRONMENT.

AND SO YEAH, IT'S HURT -- IT'S HURT US.

BUT HE'S HURT US MUCH MORE.

AND IT'S THE REPETITION.

IT'S THE CONSTANT.

AND AIT'S THOUGHT OUT.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS CAMPAIGN WE'RE ENTERING.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE THIS THE -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S AN EPIPHANY.

MAYBE EVERYBODY'S HAD IT.

BUT I LOOK AT THE LAST MANY CYCLES, AND I SEE THAT THE ELITE CANDIDATE NEVER WINS.

IF YOU GO THROUGH THE LIST.

AND I HAVE A LIST SOMEWHERE HERE.

YOU KNOW, CLINTON BEAT GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH.

CLINTON WAS THE COUNTRY BOY, THE COUNTRY MOUSE.

GEORGE W. WHO WAS BORN IN CONNECTICUT BUT PLAYED THE TEXAN, BEAT GORE AND KERRY.

THEY WERE THE ELITES.

HILLARY WAS THE ELITE.

SO, I'M LOOKING IN THIS CAST OF DEMOCRATS.

WHO CAN OUT-COUNTRY TRUMP.

IS IT COUNTRY OR IS IT RESISTING THE ELITES THAT HELPS?

IT'S BOTH.

IT'S THE IDEA OF STANDING UP TO THE SMARTIES, THE HOITY-TOITIES, THE HARVARDS, THE FIRST IN HIS CLASS AT WEST POINT.

IT'S THE DEFIANCE AGAINST THAT, BEING ABLE TO SAY WE'RE JUST AS GOOD AS YOU ARE.

THE CANDIDATE THAT CARRIES THAT BANNER.

WHO CARRIES THAT BANNER DO YOU THINK AMONGST THE DEMOCRATS?

BERNIE.

BUT I'M NOT SURE --

WHAT ABOUT BIDEN?

HE'S -- HE IS PENNSYLVANIA.

HE COULD PULL THAT OFF, I SUPPOSE.

WHAT ABOUT MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG?

I DON'T KNOW.

HE HAS -- HE CAN SPEAK ABOUT 25 LANGUAGES AND SO WELL-EDUCATED.

RIGHT, RIGHT.

SO, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT ANYWAY, I'M THINKING THAT YOU HAVE TO KIND OF GET ON TRUMP'S PLAYING FIELD IN THAT SENSE TO PEEL OFF PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM AND ARE WAIVERING.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE TODAY.

HOW DID DONALD TRUMP FROM A GUILDED TOWER IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BILLIONAIRE BECOME THE TRIBUNE OF PEOPLE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

YOU KNOW, HE'S -- HE HAS A TALENT FOR KNOWING WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS.

HE WAS A SHOWMAN, DON'T FORGET, WHEN HE WAS ON TELEVISION.

HE TOLD ME THAT HIS BASE IS NOT A BASE, IT'S A MOVEMENT.

AND THEY HAVE COME TO SUPPORT HIM IN AN EMOTIONAL WAY, AND YOU CAN SEE IT.

BUT HE KNEW THAT IN THE CAMPAIGN.

HE KNEW HE WAS BUILDING A MOVEMENT.

AND HE UNDERSTANDS HOW TO KEEP THEM WITH HIM.

AND PART OF THAT MOVEMENT TO BUILD IT INVOLVES ATTACKING NOT ONLY THE ELITES BUT THE PRESS.

WELL, ANYBODY WHO WILL CRITICIZE HIM.

ANYBODY WHO'S GOING TO TRY TO TEAR DOWN HIS REPUTATION.

AND DO YOU THINK IT'S JUST SHOWMANSHIP OR DO YOU THINK IT'S TRULY DANGEROUS?

YEAH.

YOU KNOW SOMETHING, WALTER?

THAT'S JUST THE KIND OF QUESTION AND ANSWER THAT I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO.

MAKES SENSE.

I SHOULDN'T BE IN THAT -- BE TRYING TO TAKE SIDES.

IT'S HARD FOR A REPORTER TO WALK THAT LINE AND TO REALLY, REALLY, REALLY WANT TO BE OBJECTIVE AND NOT BE POLITICAL AND NOT BE OPINIONATED.

IT'S HARD.

AND THAT'S WHY A LOT OF US SHOULDN'T PUT OURSELVES IN THIS POSITION THAT I'M IN RIGHT NOW.

WHEN YOU WENT TO '60 MINUTES,' IT WAS A BOY'S CLUB AND YOU BREAK IN AND YOU DO WELL.

BUT PARTLY YOU DO IT BY JUST BECOMING A MEMBER OF THE CLUB TOO, RIGHT?

BUT THEY ACCEPTED ME AS A MEMBER OF THE CLUB.

THERE HAD BEEN CRITICISM RIGHT BEFORE I GOT THERE THAT THEY HAD BEEN UNFAIR TO MEREDITH VIARA, THERE WAS ONE WOMAN.

SHE HAD BEEN THE WOMAN.

SHE WAS A WORKING MOTHER.

AND THAT THEY HAD NOT BEEN ACCEPTING OF THAT PART OF HER LIFE.

SO, THERE WERE ARTICLES WRITTEN THAT THEY HAD NOT BEEN FAIR TO HER.

AND I WAS A WORKING MOTHER, AND THEY WERE ALL DETERMINED THAT I WAS GOING TO HAVE AN EASY TIME.

AND THEY ACCEPTED ME.

I NEVER HAD ONE ISSUE WITH THAT.

BUT THEN CBS DOES HAVE ISSUES AFTER A WHILE LIKE MOST PLACES WITH THE WHOLE ME TOO THING.

YOU ENDED UP DEFENDING JEFF WHO HAD BEEN THE PRODUCER OF '60 MINUTES' SAYING IT HAD GONE A BIT TOO FAR.

DO YOU THINK IT WENT TOO FAR FOR SOME PEOPLE?

I DEFENDED JEFF BECAUSE I KNOW HIM AND I THOUGHT THAT THE CHARGES OF HIM BEING -- THAT HIM POSING IMPOSING HIMSELF IN A PHYSICAL SEXUAL WAY ON WOMEN WAS NOT THAT PERSON.

THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES, BUT HE WAS NOT A HARVEY WIEINSTEIN.

YOU'VE HAD A LOT OF FAMOUS WALKING OFF THE SET WITH YOU.

HOW DO YOU HANDLE IT WHEN SOMETHING TENSE HAPPENIS ON THE SET?

BORIS DID WALK OFF AND THERE WAS NO LURING HIM BACK IN.

BUT THE HOPE IS YOU CAN GET THEM BACK IN THE CHAIR.

AND ROSS PEROT WHO RAN FOR PRESIDENT IN '92 STORMED OFF, AND WE JUST SAT THERE AND GOT HIS PEOPLE AROUND AND SAID HE HAS TO COME BACK, HE HAS TO COME BACK, AND WE GOT HIM BACK.

BUT I'VE HAD A COUPLE OF HEADS OF STATE STORM OUT.

YOU CAN'T GET THEM BACK.

YOU WANT TO KNOW A SECRET ABOUT THAT?

WHEN THEY STORM OUT, YOU SAY TO YOURSELF 'I HAVE A STORY.'

WHICH STORY THAT YOU'VE DONE IN RETROSPECT DISAPPOINTS YOU AND YOU WISH YOU HAD DONE DIFFERENTLY?

I HAVE ONE.

IT WAS AROUND THE TIME OF THE IRAQ WAR AND IT HAD TO DO WITH WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

AND I LISTENED TO A DEFECTOR.

I HAD BEEN WARNED NOT TO.

WE HAD HIM VETTED BY A FORMER CIA FELLOW, AND HE SAID NO, NO, HE'S THE REAL THING.

AND WE PUT HIM ON '60 MINUTES.'

AND HE TOLD US ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN TRUCKS THAT HE HAD BOUGHT, TRUCKS HE HAD PERSONALLY BOUGHT THAT SADDAM HAD ROAMING AROUND THE COUNTRYSIDE MAKING BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS.

AND WE PUT THAT ON '60 MINUTES' AND NOT A WORD OF IT WAS TRUE.

THAT IS MY BIGGEST REGRET.

WHAT'S THE STORY YOU'RE MOST PROUD OF?

THAT'S A TOUGHY.

I DON'T KNOW.

I ALWAYS LOVED THE ONE I DID, YOU KNOW, THE LAST ONE -- THE MOST RECENT.

I JUST DID ONE ABOUT 'SESAME STREET' AND THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMUNITY JOINING TOGETHER TO HELP YOUNG, YOUNG, YOUNG CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN AND BEING RAISED IN REFUGEE CAMPS.

YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF THINGS LIKE THAT WITH TECHNOLOGY AND KIDS TOO.

I REMEMBER YOU'VE DONE EVEN WITH iPADS AND OTHER THINGS.

OH, YEAH, WELL, THE iPAD ONE WAS FOR CHILDREN WITH AUTISM.

YOU KNOW WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN.

I HAVEN'T DONE THIS YET BUT I'D LIKE TO.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE KIDS WHEN THEY'RE 30?

THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF SERVICES WHEN THEY'RE 5 AND 10 AND EVEN 13.

AND THEY AGE OUT.

I WANT TO DO THAT STORY.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US, LESLEY.