Chinonye Chukwu and Alfre Woodard Discuss “Clemency”

TURNING NOW TO THE ISSUE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PUSHES TO RESUME FEDERAL EXECUTION, A NEW FILM LOOKS AT THE MORAL QUESTIONS ABOUT DEATH ROWAND THE EMOTIONAL DEMANDS ON THE EXECUTIONER.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP.

YOU WANT TO PLAY GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS AND I'M ONE OF THE BAD GUYS.

NOW, THE FILM WON THE GRAND JURY PRIZE AT SUN DANCE THIS YEAR MAKING THE DIRECTOR THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN TO WIN IN THAT FESTIVAL'S 35 YEAR HISTORY AND SHE IS JOINING MICHELLE MARTIN ALONG WITH THE LEAD ACTOR TO TALK ABOUT IT.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?

CLEMENCY IS ABOUT BERNADINE WILLIAMS WHO IS A PRISON WARREN AND SHE HAS OVERSEEN SEVERAL EXECUTIONS AND THE FILM REALLY EXPLORES HER KIND OF EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESSING AND EVEN ACTUAL GRADUAL UNRAVELING AS SHE PREPARES TO EXECUTE ANOTHER MAN ON DEATH ROW.

WHY THIS STORY?

WHY NOW?

WELL, THIS REALLY STARTED THE MORNING AFTER TROY DAVIS WAS EXECUTED.

HE WAS EXECUTED ON SEPTEMBER 21st, 2011 AND LEADING UP TO HIS EXECUTION HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD PROTESTED AGAINST IT INCLUDING A HAND FULL OF RETIRED WARDENS AND DIRECTORS OF CORRECTIONS AND THESE WARDENS BANNED TOGETHER AND WROTE A LETTER TO THE GOVERNOR URGING FOR CLEMENCY.

NOT JUST ON THE GROUNDS OF HIS POTENTIAL INNOCENCE BUT THEY SPOKE ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES KILLING HIM WOULD HAVE ON THE PRISON STAFF.

THE MORNING AFTER HE WAS EXECUTING I LIKE MANY OTHERS WERE NAVIGATING FEELINGS OF ANGER AND FRUSTRATION AND SADNESS.

WHAT MUST IT BE LIKE FOR THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVELIHOODS WERE TIED TO THE TAKING OF HUMAN LIFE.

WHAT ARE THE EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES THAT THE WARDEN SPOKE TO AND THAT WAS THE SEED THAT WAS PLANTED.

SO IN 2013, THAT'S WHEN I REALLY DECIDED THAT I WAS GOING TO FULLY COMMIT MY LIFE TO RESEARCHING AND WRITING AND UNDERSTANDING THIS WORLD.

WHAT ABOUT YOU?

WHAT ABOUT THE SUBJECT ITSELF?

THE SUBJECT MATTER THAT MADE YOU WANT TO TACKLE THIS?

SO WHEN I -- MYSELF AS AN EDUCATED WOMAN IN A SIX DECADE END SOCIALLY AND POLITICALLY ACTIVE DID NOT KNOW THAT THESE PEOPLE EXISTED.

I KNOW SOMETHING MAGICAL HAPPENED WHENEVER SOMEBODY WAS PUT TO DEATH AND IT MADE ME FEEL SICK AND I NEVER PUT A PERSON BY IT AND I ASSUMED THAT THEY MUST BE THE PEOPLE THAT LIKED TO STOMP SMALL CREATURES OR SOMETHING.

AND THEY COULD BE WOMEN AND THEY COULD BE SISTERS.

THEY WOULD COME FROM MENTAL HEALTH TO THE PRISON SYSTEM.

COME FROM SOCIAL WORK TO THE PRISON SYSTEM.

IT WAS A REVELATION.

IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, I ASSUMED THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DIDN'T KNOW IT.

IT WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING IN THE BALANCE.

YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT DECISION IN AN INFORMED WAY UNLESS YOU KNOW ALL OF THE ASPECTS OF IT.

THAT WAS THE STORY TO BRING TO THE PUBLIC.

THE IDEA OF MAKING THE WARDEN A BLACK WOMAN, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

REALLY JUST WHY NOT?

I DON'T HAVE ANY -- THERE WASN'T -- I THINK THAT A LOT OF -- I THINK A LOT OF WHITE MEN WRITE IN THEIR LIKENESS WITHOUT QUESTION AND I JUST WROTE IN MY LIKENESS AND I COULD SEE MYSELF IN BERNADINE AND THERE WAS NO QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS SHOULD HAPPEN.

I JUST THINK THAT'S SO FASCINATING BECAUSE THE AFRICAN AMERICANS DEPICTED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE GENERALLY, THEY'RE EITHER LIKE DANNY GLOVER, TRYING TO KEEP THINGS ON THE UP AND UP AND NOT ALWAYS SUCCEEDING OR IN DETROIT ESSENTIALLY A BYSTANDER AND MAYBE DENZEL WASHINGTON IN TRAINING DA I THAT WAS CORRUPT BUT THE IDEA OF A PERSON WHO -- FOR WHOM IT'S A JOB AND THEY'RE TRYING TO DO THIS TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY AND STRUGGLING WITH WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE KNOWING HOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE VIEWED, IT'S JUST A VERY ORIGINAL IDEA.

MOST OF THE WARDENS THAT I SPOKE TO, THE WARDEN AT THE PRISON WHERE I CREATED A FILM PROGRAM AND TAUGHT INCARCERATED WOMEN TO MAKE THEIR OWN SHORT FILMS, THEY'RE ALL BLACK WOMEN.

MOST OF THE WARDENS THAT I SPOKE TO.

MOST OF THE WARDENS THAT I JUST OBSERVED IF YEARS, BLACK WOMEN AND I JUST THOUGHT THAT THAT, THEY WERE SO HUMAN TO ME AND IT JUST MADE ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A REALLY GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A BLACK WOMAN PROTAGONIST HUMAN ON SCREEN.

THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT BERNADINE, SHE IS MEETING WITH THE ATTORNEY FOR PRISONER THAT IS ON DEATH ROW.

AND I THINK WE'LL JUST PLAY THIS CLIP AND THEN TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT IT.

GREAT.

THEY'RE NOT APART OF HIS LEGAL TEAM.

IF THEY WANT TO TALK TO HIM, THEY CAN WRITE A LETTER.

CALL HIM ON THE PHONE.

THOSE ARE THE RULES.

HE'S NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW THAT.

HE'S NUMB.

HE'S CUT PEOPLE OUT.

PEOPLE HAVE CUT HIM OUT.

NOW HIS MOM IS DEAD.

I JUST WANT HIM TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT SUPPORT HIM.

IT'S JUST A CONVERSATION.

YOU CAN'T.

BLOCKED EVERY ATTEMPT THAT I MANAGED TO TRY TO GET HIM TO BE TREATED BY A HUMAN BEING.

YOU'RE GOING TO KILL HIM.

IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

I HAVE TREATED HIM LIKE A HUMAN BEING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

IS IT MY JOB TO BYPASS THE RULES TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR SPECIAL REQUEST.

SPECIAL REQUEST.

HOW IS IT A SPECIAL REQUEST.

OPEN THE GATES PLEASE I'D LIKE TO LEAVE NOW.

I HAVE TO MAINTAIN ORDER AND SAFETY IN THIS PRISON.

I HAVE OVER 1,000 BODIES THAT I HAVE TO ENSURE ARE SAFE AND ACCOUNTED FOR.

HARD ENOUGH WITHOUT YOU COMPLICATING THINGS.

ALL YOU TO DO IS PROTECT YOURSELF NOW THAT THIS PLACE IS UNDER FIRE SINCE YOU BOTCHED THE LAST EXECUTION.

KEEP THE OUTSIDE WORLD OUT.

YOU CAN KILL HIM AS UNDER THE RADAR AS POSSIBLE.

GET OUT.

REMOVE ANY DECENCY THE MAN HAS LEFT TO BOOT.

GO.

I'M GOING.

BUT I'M NOT GOING FAR.

I AM GOING TO FIGHT FOR HIM RIGHT UP UNTIL THE VERY MOMENT THAT YOU STICK THE NEEDLE IN HIS ARM.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND BERNADINE?

WHAT IS SHE ABOUT?

BERNADINE IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT YOU WANT IN A TIME OF CRISES.

SHE IS A PERSON THAT IS STEADY.

SHE'S THE TYPE OF PERSON YOU'D LIKE FOR AN ADMIRAL OR GENERAL.

HER COMPASSION SHOWS IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN MY COMPASSION.

I AM ARTISTIC.

I AM EMOTIONAL.

MY COMPASSION IS WARM.

IT'S MALLABLE.

HER COMPASSION IS I'M NOT GOING TO LET US SLIP INTO THAT.

WE'RE GOING TO BE OKAY.

AND EVERYBODY IS GOING TO KEEP THEIR DIGNITY BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO KEEP THE PROTOCOL.

WHO ARE WE ROOTING FOR HERE?

WHO IS THE VILLAIN AND WHO IS THE HERO?

YOU KNOW, MY INTENTION WASN'T TO WRITE A STORY OR MAKE A FILM THAT WAS THAT BINARY.

I THINK THAT THIS ENTIRE STORY, THIS ENTIRE WORLD EXISTS IN THE GRAY AND MANY PEOPLE ARE THEIR OWN PROTAGONIST AND ANTAGONIST AT THE TIME.

IT'S FASCINATING.

I JUST HAVE A NUMBER OF RELATIVES IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AS BEING NOT WITH THE COMMUNITY AS IT WERE BUT BEING WITH THE ENEMY.

I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT MAYBE THE DECISION TO GIVE HER A SENSE OF HUMANITY AND A SENSE OF PURPOSE THAT SHE BELIEVES IN.

I MEAN, SHE THINKS SHE IS DOING THE RIGHT THING.

RIGHT.

WELL, I DIDN'T HAVE TO GIVE IT TO HER.

SHE HAS IT.

I HAD TO NOT DENY THAT IN MY PORTRAYAL OF HER.

BECAUSE THE THING IS, I WOULD NOT BE DOING MY JOB IF I DIDN'T MAKE HER A HUMAN BEING BECAUSE SHE IS A HUMAN BEING AND SHE'S EVEN MORE OF A HUMAN BEING THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT MIGHT SIT IN JUDGMENT OF HER BECAUSE ONE OF THE CONTRACTS THAT THE WARDENS MAKE WITH AND I'M NOT MEANING ALL WARDENS BUT THE ONES THAT WE MET, THEY MAKE WITH THOSE, THE CONDEMNED MEN IS THAT I WILL WALK YOU THROUGH THIS WITH AS MUCH DIGNITY AS POSSIBLE.

THE LAST DRUG IS POTASSIUM CHLORIDE WHICH WILL CEASE HEART FUNCTION.

AT THAT POINT, MEDICAL PERSONNEL WILL CONFIRM THE EXECUTION IS COMPLETE.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS, YOU CAN BUT DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?

DO YOU HAVE ANY FAMILY THAT WOULD LIKE TO CLAIM YOUR BODY?

THAT'S THEIR CO-WORKER.

THAT'S WHO THEY HAVE SEEN FOR 10, 15, 20 YEARS.

THEY GO TO WORK EVERY DAY AND THEN THAT GROUP HAS TO PUT DOWN ONE OF THEIR COLLEAGUES.

THIS FILM IS TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF -- ITS NOT TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF THE INCARCERATED PERSON.

IT'S TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH EXECUTING HIM.

AND IT'S JUST AN INTERESTING WAY TO GO ABOUT THAT.

SO WHY WAS THAT YOUR APPROACH?

BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A WAY FOR ME TO WIDEN THE REACH OF THIS FILM IS TO TELL THE STORY FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A PERPETRATOR OF THE SYSTEM.

A WAY FOR ME TO NOT JUST PREACH TO THE CHOIR BUT TO REALLY GET PEOPLE -- TO REALLY KIND OF GET PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT OR WHO MIGHT HAVE NO REGARD FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED.

IT'S FOR ME TO TELL THE STORY FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF SOMEONE WHO THEY THINK MIGHT BE MORE IN LINE WITH THEIR VIEWS.

AND WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE THAT SAY, YOU KNOW, SO WHAT?

SO WHAT.

THEY DID SOMETHING BAD.

THEY HAVE TO SUFFER.

SO WHAT?

MY INTENTION WITH MAKING CLEMENCY WAS TO FOCUS ON THE GRAY AND I DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE THE NARRATIVE WITH MY OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL POSITION.

I THINK THE FILM IS A VERY UNSENTIMENTAL LOOK AT THE COMPLEXITY OF PEOPLE TIED TO THE SYSTEM FROM ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF PERSPECTIVES AND I THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WATCH THE FILM ARE SAYING THAT I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT TO THINK.

I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT TO FEEL.

BUT I DO BELIEVE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK YOU WILL FEEL SOMETHING UPON WATCHING THIS FILM AND I THINK THAT THAT FEELING IS THE POTENTIAL START OF SOME CHANGE.

THE SMART THING THAT YOU DID IS YOU NEVER CONCERNED YOURSELF OR THE FILM WITH WHETHER ANTHONY IS INNOCENT OR GUILTY.

IT'S BESIDE THE POINT OF WHERE WE WANT TO TAKE THAT CONVERSATION.

IT'S GREAT.

THEY THOUGHT I COULD PLAY THAT RELATIONSHIP ROLE.

BUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE BOTH AFRICAN AMERICAN TAKES US PAST IT BECAUSE YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO GET STUCK ON RACE AND NEVER GET TO ANYTHING --

WITHOUT GIVING TOO MUCH AWAY, IN FACT, MOST OF THE RELEVANT CHARACTERS ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN.

I'LL JUST SAY THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS A REVEAL THAT I DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY.

IT'S ONE PERSON WAS WHITE AND ONE PERSON WAS BLACK I THINK THAT THE RACIAL DYNAMIC WILL OVERTAKE THE NARRATIVE AND WILL KIND OF UNDERCUT THE FOCUS ON THE HUMANITY AT STAKE THAT I REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S GIVING TOO MUCH AWAY TO SAY WHAT HOPE OPENS THE FILM IS A BOTCHED EXECUTION AND IT'S ROUTED IN THE NEWS.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THERE'S BEEN BOTCHED EXECUTIONS IN RECENT YEARS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO SUFFER BEYOND WHAT THE LAW ENVISIONED.

YEAH.

AND I WAS JUST CURIOUS THAT THE INTENTION OF THAT IS ITS A CRISIS FOR BERNADINE OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE SHE BELIEVES THAT SHE IS DOING EVERYTHING ACCORDING TO WHAT SHE HAS BEEN TAUGHT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT BUT IN A WAY DO YOU WANT THAT TO BE A CRISIS FOR US?

TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO DO THIS?

HE SAID THAT THE PRICE OF HIS OWN DESTRUCTION.

IT'S THE WAY DO THIS WITHOUT DEHUMANIZING OURSELVES, ALL OF US.

ABSOLUTELY.

IN ORDER FOR US TO, WE IN TERM BECOME DEHUMANIZED AS WELL AND BERNADINE AND THE OTHER STAFF EVEN THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIM.

AND EVERYBODY IS AFFECTED BY THIS SYSTEMATIC KILLING AND THE SYSTEMATIC DEHUMANIZATION AND A PIECE OF THEM OR PIECES OF THEM ARE INCREMENTALLY TAKEN AS WELL.

ARE YOU WILLING TO OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE THOUGH, I'M SAYING YOU AS HUMAN BEINGS.

THIS ISN'T YOUR MAIN EXPERTISE.

ARE YOU WILLING TO OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE.

LOCKING PEOPLE UP FOR DECADES.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE FUNDAMENTAL SOCIETAL THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO AND DISMANTLE AND WE NEED TO NOT CRIMINALIZE POVERTY AND NOT CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE FOR WHO ARE JUST SURVIVING AND PROVIDE BASIC NECESSITIES TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE AND IT SHOULDN'T BE CONTINGENT ON HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE OR DON'T HAVE AND THAT'S SOME THINGS THAT COULD BE A DETURRENT TO CRIMES AND ALTERNATIVE TO PUTTING INCARCERATED PEOPLE FOR DECADES AND DECADES.

THAT DOESN'T SOLVE THE FOUNDATIONAL ISSUES THAT ARE IN OUR SOCIETY.

AND HEINOUS THINGS HAPPEN THERE AND PEOPLE ARE IMPRISONED.

IT'S JUST THAT IT SEEMS TO BE IN THE AMERICAN CULTURE TO ALWAYS GO OVERBOARD.

WHAT DID THEY SAY?

IT'S A WOMAN'S PRISON IN OHIO AND THERE'S ONLY A FEW HUNDRED WOMEN IN THAT PRISON THEY DID A GROUP AND LIVED ALL TOGETHER AND THEY WERE HOUSED TOGETHER AND THEY HAVE THESE SONGS OUT AROUND THE WORLD TO ESPECIALLY LONG PEOPLE THAT WERE ILL AND GAVE THEM SO MUCH JOY AND SO MUCH SENSE OF PURPOSE IF THESE WOMEN HAD BEEN SHOWN RESPECT.

IF THEY HAD THAT SENSE OF PURPOSE, THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE FOLLOWED WHOEVER THEY FOLLOWED INTO THAT.

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING THIS FILM WILL DO?

I HOPE IT EXPANDS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED.

I DEVELOPED A PASSION FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE INCARCERATED.

I HOPE THIS WILL INSPIRE PEOPLE NOT TO DEFINE PEOPLE BY THEIR WORSE POSSIBLE ACTS.

SO NOT WRITE OFF OF DISREGARD THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IN CORRECTIVE CONTROL AND TO REALLY SEE THEMSELVES IN THEIR HUMANITY.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING.