Mike Isaac on Uber, Corporate Greed and the Gig Economy

FOR MANY YEARS NOW, UBER HAS CHANGED THE WAY MANY OF US LIVE, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT ALSO AROUND THE WORLD, IN THE WAY WE SOCIALIZE AND WORK.

BUT THE COMPANY HAS FACED SCANDALS INCLUDING THE OUSTING OF THE C.E.O.. THE 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' TECH REPORTER HAS BEEN COVERING THE RIDE HAILING COMPANY FOR YEARS.

IT PRESENTED THE DRAMATIC RISE AND FALL OF OF A START-UP THAT SYMB SYMBOLIZES EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SILICON VALLEY.

HE TELLS OUR HARRY SRINIVASIN HOW IT SHOULD BE CORPORATE GREED.

YOU'VE COVERED UBER A LONG TIME.

WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT ABOUT UBER, WHAT DID THEY FIGURE OUT?

I THINK IT WAS SOMETHING ABOUT -- IF YOU CAN REMEMBER IN 2009, 2010, IT WAS THIS MOMENT WHERE SMARTPHONES WERE JUST STARTING TO BECOME, YOU KNOW, A DEVICE, A COMPUTER IN EVERYONE'S POCKET.

WIRELESS, YOU KNOW, HIGH-SPEED CONNECTIVITY WAS BECOMING MORE COMMON IN DIFFERENT CITIES.

AND THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS CRAZY IN RETROSPECT NOW, THAT YOU CAN CALL A CAR FROM YOUR PHONE WAS PRETTY REVOLUTIONARY, RIGHT?

IT GAVE PEOPLE THE IDEA THAT MAYBE THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF THE SMARTPHONE CAN BE MUCH LARGER THAN JUST TEXTING OR MESSAGING WITH YOUR FRIENDS OR LOGGING ON TO FACEBOOK AND SHARING PHOTOS.

AS YOU REPORT OUT, THEY WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES TRYING TO THINK ABOUT RETHINKING TRANSPORTATION, RIGHT?

THEY WEREN'T THE FIRST ONE.

SO HOW DID THEY SUCCEED, HOW DID THEY GET SO BIG SO FAST?

I THINK IN THE VALLEY, DARK VALLEY, IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING FIRST, IT'S ABOUT BEING THE BEST OR EXECUTING THE BEST.

FACEBOOK WAS NOT THE FIRST SOCIAL NETWORK TO SORT OF BEING THERE.

THERE WAS THE MY SPACES OF THE WORLD.

IT'S ABOUT MAKING THE RIGHT MOVES TO SECURE YOUR DOMINANCE AS A COMPANY.

AND I THINK FOR UBER, IT WAS ABOUT BEING REALLY, BASICALLY REALLY CUT THROAT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

TRAVIS KALANICK WAS THE C.E.O.

OF THE COMPANY FOR NINE OR SO YEARS, AND HIS WHOLE PHILOSOPHY WAS, YOU KNOW, DON'T TAKE -- DON'T ASK -- DON'T ASK PERMISSION, ASK FORGIVENESS, ESSENTIALLY.

GO INTO CITIES AND REALLY DON'T EVEN ASK FORGIVENESS.

JUST BARGE INTO CITIES.

IF YOU CAN REMEMBER AT THE TIME, RIDE SHARING HAD NO REGULATORY FRAMEWORK AROUND IT.

AND WHETHER CITY GOVERNMENTS WANT US THERE OR NOT, WE'RE GOING TO OPERATE.

AND NORMAL PEOPLE WHO USE THIS APP ONCE WE PUT IT IN THEIR HANDS WILL GET THE MAGIC OF IT AND BE SORT OF ENTHRALLED ENOUGH TO WANT US THERE.

FOR MOST, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, IT ACTUALLY WORKED FOR AT LEAST A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME.

SO THEY WOULD JUST BARREL INTO THESE CITIES, NOT ASK FOR PERMISSION, THEY GET A FINE BY THE CITY.

BY THAT TIME THERE'S A BUNCH OF USERS, AND A BUNCH OF MONEY.

TALK ABOUT UBER GOING INTO HUNDREDS OF CITIES AROUND THE UNITED STATES AT THIS POINT.

CITIES BARELY HAVE THE ABILITY TO ENFORCE PARKING OR DIFFERENT SORTS OF RULES AROUND THEIR LOCAL GOVERNMENT, MUCH LESS CATCH A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE DRIVING DIFFERENT CARS AROUND THE CITY.

THERE WAS NO REAL ENFORCEMENT AROUND IT.

IN CITIES LIKE PORTLAND, THEY TRIED TO DO THESE THINGS, PULLOVER DRIVERS BY CATCHING THE CARS.

EVERY TIME -- IT WAS LIKE AN ARMS RACE.

EVERY TIME THE REGULATORS TRIED TO CATCH UBER, UBER TRIED TO OUTSMART THE REGULATORS BY USING SOME DIFFERENT FORM OF TECHNOLOGY TO DO THAT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHERE IT GOT TRICKY AND ULTIMATELY WHAT WOULD BE UBER'S UNDOING WAS HOW FAR SHOULD YOU GO WHEN YOU'RE PRESSING -- WHEN YOU'RE BENDING THOSE RULES AND ULTIMATELY ARE YOU GETTING TO A POINT WHERE YOU'RE MAYBE BREAKING THE LAW OR GOING BEYOND WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING.

HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS TRAVIS'S IMPACT ON THE COMPANY, HIS FINGERPRINT ON THE CORPORATE CULTURE?

I MEAN, LOOK, IN SILICON VALLEY IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MOVE FAST, BREAK THINGS.

IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT YOU HAVE TO -- INCUMB INCUMBENT ARE NOT GOING TO HAND OVER THEIR TERRITORY TO YOU.

YOU HAVE TO PRESS AND BE WILLING TO PUSH IT.

SO I THINK THAT ETHOS IS REALLY INSTILLED IN A LOT OF YOUNG TECH FOUNDERS.

THAT SAID, TRAVIS WAS JUAN OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAD TO WIN, RIGHT.

LIKE, HE HAD TO GO TO ALL LENGTHS TO ESSENTIALLY DOMINATE THE INDUSTRY.

IT WASN'T GOING TO BE UBER VERSUS LYFT OR UBER AND LYFT IN A MARKET OR UBER AND DEE DEE IN CHINA OR ULA IN INDIA.

UBER OWNS THE WORLD.

THAT'S HOW TRAVIS HAD TO OPERATE.

AND I THINK THAT WIN AT ALL COSTS MENTALITY ULTIMATELY JUST TRICKLED DOWN TO THE ENTIRE COMPANY.

I THINK REALLY FOR EVERY FOUNDER OF A COMPANY, THAT DNA IS KEY.

IT KIND OF SETS THE TONE FROM THE TOP DOWN ON HOW A COMPANY IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE.

AND YOU COULD ARGUE FOR A WHILE IT REALLY WORKED FOR UBER, LIKE PUSHING INTO A LOT OF THESE CITIES WITHOUT TAKING NO FOR AN ANSWER DID MAKE THEM SORT OF BECOME UBIQUITOUS UNTIL IT DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, UNTIL EMPLOYEES WOULD DO THINGS, YOU KNOW, THAT EVENTUALLY CAUSED THEM SCRUTINY BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

RIGHT.

THAT MAY HAVE GONE TOO FAR.

SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EARLY INVESTORS, DeBOER, WHY WERE THEY NOT ABLE TO REIN IN THIS CULTURE?

THIS IS THE POWER DYNAMIC THAT HAS BEEN A PUSH AND PULL IN SILICON VALLEY.

IN EARLY DAYS, IN THE TIME OF THE MARK ZUCKERBERGS OR LARRY PAGE AND SERGEY BRYNN AT GOOGLE, THE IDEA THAT THE FOUNDER AS THIS SORT OF GODHEAD CULT-LIKE FIGURE PERSON WHO CAN COME IN AND HAVE A REAL VISION WAS REALLY [ INAUDIBLE ] TOO MIDDLE SOME BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO MESS UP A GOOD THING ESSENTIALLY.

I REALLY THINK ZUCKERBERG AND PAGE AND BRYNN MADE THAT MORE POPULAR OVER TIME.

AND OVER TIME, AS VC, VENTURE CAPITALISTS WANTED TO INVEST IN COMPANIES, THEY WOULD ESSENTIALLY GIVE MORE POWER TO THE FOUNDERS OF THESE COMPANIES.

IN THE CASE OF -- LETS ARCHIPELAGO SAY THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, LET'S SAY ZUCKERBERG PRE-2016, YOU KNOW, YOU BUILD A BILLION -- MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COMPANY THAT'S DOING REALLY WELL.

IN THE WORST CASE SCENARIO OF A TRAVIS KALANICK OR UBER, YOU HAVE A FOUNDER WHO AMID MULTIPLE SCANDALS, RECKLESS BEHAVIOR INTERNALLY AND MULTIPLE FEDERAL INVESTIGATIONS, YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO REMOVE THAT FOUNDER OR REMOVE THAT C.E.O. BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THEY CEDED A LOT OF THE POWER OVER TO HIM IN THE WAY THE CORPORATE STRUCTURE WORKED.

SO, HOW DID THAT PERFECT STORM HAPPEN?

I MEAN, IT KIND OF SEEMED TO BE POST THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY BEGINNING.

THERE SEEMED TO BE A FOCUS ON INEQUALITY AND WORKER RIGHTS, THE RISE OF THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.

WHAT WERE THE FACTORS THAT MADE THESE BIG STRUGGLES TO UBER SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH WHERE HE HAD TO LEAVE, HE HAD TO BE OUSTED?

YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- PERFECT STORM IS THE EXACT RIGHT WORD.

IF YOU REMEMBER BACK IN PRE-2016, TECH DIDN'T HAVE THE LEVEL OF SCRUTINY IT HAS NOW.

IT WAS IN A HALO.

RIGHT, FOUNDERS WERE ON THE COVERS OF MAGAZINES, THEY WERE AN IDEALIZED VERSION OF WHAT IT WAS TO GO INTO TECH.

FACEBOOK WAS ON THE LIST OF TOP TEN COMPANIES TO WORK YEARS ON END.

POST TRUMP'S ELECTION, WE START TODAY SEE QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW TECH WORKED, RIGHT, MAYBE RUSSIAN INFLUENCE CAMPAIGNS ARE PUTTING DISINFORMATION INSIDE OF FACEBOOK AND WE WEREN'T AWARE OF IT.

MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T BE CREATING MODELS OF WORK WITH HYBRID PROTECTION -- WOMEN ARE BEING BADLY MISTREATED IN THESE TECH COMPANIES AND NOT HAVING ANY VOICE TO SAY IT.

SO AT THIS ONE MOMENT AND, YOU KNOW, BEGINNING -- THIS WAS SORT OF LIKE THE SEEDS OF -- RUMBLINGS OF EARLY ME TOO THAT WOULD COME LATER IN 2017.

AT THIS MOMENT, I THINK UBER BECAME REALLY THE POSTER CHILD FOR HOW BAD TECH -- BAD BEHAVIOR IN TECH CAN BE, RIGHT.

AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT SCANDALS CAME OUT FOR THE COMPANY AT ONCE.

IF YOU REMEMBER, SUSAN FOWLER, AN EMPLOYEE AT THE COMPANY, PUBLISHED THIS LENGTHY BLOG POST THAT SAID, ESSENTIALLY, SHE HAD SUFFERED REALLY BAD MISTREATMENT AND SEXUAL HARASSMENT AT THE HANDS OF HERMAN JERZ AS SOON AS SHE GOT THERE.

I THINK THAT BROKE THE DAM OPEN FOR A LOT OF SCANDALS TO COME OUT.

GIVEN ALL THE BAD BEHAVIOR THAT'S BEEN DOCUMENTED ABOUT TRAVIS THROUGH THE INVESTIGATIONS -- I MEAN, THERE WAS BASICALLY SORT OF VERY HIGH-LEVEL INVESTIGATION THAT WENT INTO THIS.

UM-HMM.

HERE HE IS NOW NO LONGER WITH THE COMPANY.

YEP.

INCREDIBLY WEALTHY.

YEP.

ALL OF THE EARLY FOUNDERS AND EMPLOYEES OF UBER WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, WHAT WAS THE CONSEQUENCE?

RIGHT.

THIS IS THE OUTCOME AT THE END OF THE BOOK WE'RE SORT OF LEFT WITH, WHAT ARE WE LEARNING HERE, RIGHT?

DID THEY GET THEIR COME-UP, TRAVIS LEARN FROM THIS ENTIRE THING?

IS HE GOING TO BE A SORT OF CHANGE MAN?

DID THE EMPLOYEES SORT OF FEEL CHASTENED AND DECIDED TO TURNOVER A NEW LEAF?

TRAVIS IS A BILLIONAIRE THREE TIMES OVER AT THIS POINT.

HE'S WORKING ON A NEW START-UP.

HE'S STILL IN GOOD COMPANY.

STILL KBZ GOES TO THE MET GALA, INVESTS ALONGSIDE BLUE CHIP FIRMS.

HE'S HIRED AMONG EMPLOYEES WHO WERE PUSHED OUT OF UBER FORBAD BEHAVIOR FOR HIS NEW COMPANY, RIGHT?

SO I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH HE HAS LEARNED, EXCEPT MAYBE TO KEEP HIS PROFILE MUCH LOWER AT THIS NEW START-UP HE'S WORKING ON JUST TO SORT OF KEEP COVER FROM PRESS SCRUTINY.

I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW.

I DO WONDER IF IT'S A SEA CHANGE IN THE VALLEY.

I TALK TO A LOT OF TECH FOUNDERS WHO SAY, LOOK, I DON'T WANT TO BUILD THE SAME COMPANY UBER BUILT.

I WANT TO THINK ABOUT CULTURE AND ETHICS IN THE COMPANY MUCH EARLIER ON, SO IF WE'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET BIG, WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SIMILAR PROBLEMS.

SO MAYBE THERE IS A LESSON LEARNED.

THE NEW C.E.O. ON THIS PROGRAM SAID UBER'S BUSINESS MODEL IS SUSTAINABLE.

IS IT?

THE FORMER C.E.O. OF EX PEDIA, ULTIMATELY WE'RE GOING TO GET TO A COST OF STABILIZING AND COMING DOWN AND WE'LL START TO TURN A PROFIT IN MORE MARKETS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TO SUBSIDIZE RIDES FIGHTING AGAINST DIFFERENT COMPETITORS IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

THE PROBLEM IS THEY'RE PUSHING HEAD LONG INTO THE FOOD DELIVERY BUSINESS RIGHT NOW WHICH IS, I WOULD SAY IT'S WHERE RIDESHARING WAS FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO.

IT'S VERY EXPENSIVE.

THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE COMPETING AND COMPANIES THAT ARE WILLING TO LOSE -- LOSE MONEY ON EVERY DELIVERY ESSENTIALLY IN ORDER TO GAIN MARKET SHARE.

SO IT KEEPS KIND OF KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD ON WHEN PROFITABILITY IS GOING TO COME.

YOU KNOW, HE CAN SAY THAT THEY HAVE A PATH TO PROFITABILITY.

THEY'RE SAYING 2021 IS WHEN THEY'RE AIMING TO BECOME PROFITABLE.

BUT IT'S HARD BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL TRYING TO GROW AND THEY'RE LOSING MONEY ON ALL THE BUSINESSES THEY'RE BREAKING INTO.

I WILL WAIT TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.

HOW ARE THEY DEALING WITH THE DRIVERS AND THE PUSHBACK THEY'VE BEEN RECEIVING FOR THEM FOR SO LONG?

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED QUICKLY, THE TIPS, SOMETHING DRIVERS WANTED.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO KEEP DRIVERS HAPPY?

WHETHER YOU HAVE EMPLOYEES OR NOT, IF YOU DON'T HAVE DRIVERS YOU DON'T HAVE A SERVICE.

ONE OF THE OVERSIGHTS OF TRAVIS'S ERA WAS SEEING DRIVERS AS DISPOSABLE ESSENTIALLY.

IF I DON'T TREAT DRIVERS WELL, IF WE DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THEIR PAY ALL THE TIME AND THEIR CONCERNS, THEN WE CAN ALWAYS GET NEW ONES.

QUICKLY UBER REALIZED AND DARA HAS MADE A PRIORITY TO CHANGE RELATIONSHIP WITH DRIVERS OVER TIME, START TO OFFER THEM LIMITED ADVICE ON HOW TO HANDLE TAX PREPARATION OR AT LEAST GIVING THEM DIFFERENT ADVISORS THERE, OR SENDING THEM TO, YOU KNOW, MEDICAL BENEFITS PLANS THAT THEY CAN GO FIND ON THEIR OWN.

IT'S A REAL DIFFICULTY.

IF THEY HELP THEM TOO MUCH, IT'S ALMOST AS IF THEY'RE TREATING THEM LIKE EMPLOYEES, WHICH, AGAIN, THEY DON'T WANT TO DO.

THE DRIVERS ARE GOING TO GET UPSET AND SAY YOU'RE MISTREATING US.

THEY'RE TRYING.

THEY'RE DOING THIS PROGRAM OF CHANGE AND WE VALUE OUR DRIVERS, BUT IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE TENSE BECAUSE THEY ONLY CAN VALUE THEM SO MUCH.

WHAT ABOUT THE CONCERNS OF PASSENGERS HAVE HAD OVERRIDE SAFETY?

I MEAN 99.9% OF THESE RIDE SHARING APPS AND THE RIDES THAT HAPPEN ARE FINE AND THEY'RE SAFE.

BUT EVEN JUST GIVEN THE VOLUME, EVEN IF IT'S THAT .1%. THAT'S A LOT OF RIDES, LOT OF BAD EXPERIENCES, WE'VE HAD REPORTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND RAP IN UBER VEHICLES.

YEP.

BY UBER DRIVERS.

WHAT'S THE COMPANY DOING IT?

I THINK YOU NAILED IT ON THE SCALE IDEA.

NOT JUST UBER, BUT ANY OF THESE COMPANIES.

IF YOU'RE DOING SAY MILLIONS OF RIDES A DAY OR FOR FACEBOOK, BILLIONS OF PIECES OF CONTENT PER DAY OR WHATEVER, EVEN JUST A FRACTION OF THAT IS A LOT OF PEOPLE.

IT AFFECTS A LOT OF PEOPLE.

SO I THINK SOMETHING THE COMPANY WILL NEVER SAY IS YOU CAN NEVER FULLY GET RID OF THIS BECAUSE THAT'S JUST HOW THE WORLD WORKS.

BUT WHAT THEY DO IS TRY TO MINIMIZE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

SO UBER HAS COME OUT TO THEIR CREDIT, HAVE COME OUT WITH A NUMBER OF SAFETY MECHANISMS THAT NEVER EXISTED IN THE APP FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

THERE'S WAYS TO EXCEPTED YOUR LOCATION TO PEOPLE SO THEY KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING ON THE WAY TO YOUR RIDE.

THERE'S ESSENTIALLY A PANIC BUTTON THAT CAN CALL 911 IF YOU FEEL UNSAFE OR DANGEROUS OR YOU GO OFF IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

THERE IS A WAY TO -- FOR THE COMPANY TO DETECT IF THE DRIVER IS GOING OFF ROUTE FOR A VERY EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME WHICH MIGHT MEAN IRREGULAR ACTIVITY.

THEY BUILT IN MORE MECHANISM AND PEOPLE ON THE SAFETY TEAM.

I WILL GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR THAT.

ANYONE WHO OPERATES A COMPANY THAT SERVES LITERAL BILLIONS OF PEOPLE RECOGNIZES YOU CAN NEVER GET SOMETHING 100% SAFE.

DOES THE GIG ECONOMY WORK?

THERE IS NOW AN UBER FOR EVERYTHING.

YOU CAN GET YOUR TASKS DONE.

LOTS OF DIFFERENT SERVICES WHERE CONTRACTORS COME IN AND FILL THE GAP.

WHAT IS THE RIPPLE EFFECT ON OUR ECONOMY IF THAT IS A LEGITIMATE AVENUE FOR PEOPLE TO FIND EMPLOYMENT?

I THINK THERE ARE A FEW THINGS GOING ON.

I THINK ONE, IN THE WAKE OF UBER THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY AN UBER FOR ANYTHING.

WITH ANY START-UPS, A LOT WILL FAIL BECAUSE THE BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK FOR EVERYTHING.

IT'S NOT INFINITELY REPEATABLE.

SOME ARE STARTING TO HIT WALLS.

TASK RABBIT WAS BOUGHT BY IKEA BECAUSE IT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ENOUGH OF A STAND-ALONE BUSINESS.

THOSE THAT DO MAKE IT, IT CHANGES HOW WE THINK ABOUT WORK AND EMPLOYMENT AND HOW PEOPLE EXIST IN CITIES, RIGHT.

I'M THINKING ABOUT ALL THE FOOD DELIVERY COMPANIES NOW, THAT HAS AN AFFECT ON LOCAL BUSINESS.

IT HAS AN EFFECT ON RETAIL RESTAURANTS WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT NOT BE WALKING IN AND COMING OFFER THE STREET ANY MORE BECAUSE THEY CAN SIT AT HOME AND WATCH NETFLIX OVER THE COST OF THE FOOD.

THEY'RE TRYING TO COME IN AND GIVE YOU CHEAPER MEALS.

THERE ARE EFFECTS THIS HAS.

OR AMAZON, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY REPLACED MALLS AT THIS POINT.

IT DEFINITELY HAD AN EFFECT ON RETAIL.

IT CHANGES HOW WE GET SERVICES AND HOW WE THINK THESE SERVICES SHOULD WORK.

BUT I DO THINK, I DO THINK WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE THE COSTS IN THAT AND SEE WHO IT AFFECTS.

IN THE CASE OF UBER IT WAS TAXI DRIVERS.

IN THE CASE OF AMAZON T IT'S RETAILERS AND SHOPS.

IN THE CASE OF FOOD DELIVERY.

IT'S FOOD RESTAURANTS.

THAT UPHEAVAL HAS A COST AND PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT.

TELL ME THE THROUGH LINE BETWEEN THE EXAMPLES YOU GAVE, WE END UP VALUING OUR CONVENIENCE MORE THAN THINKING ABOUT WHAT THOSE RIPPLE EFFECTS ARE IF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN THE RESTAURANT GO AWAY, IF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN THE MALL GO AWAY, IF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN TAXIS GO AWAY.

I THINK IT REALLY ABSTRACTS, IT'S KIND OF LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE BIG PICTURE IS SUBTRACTED FROM WHAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU AT THE MOMENT.

MAYBE AMAZON IS BAD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IN THE WAY THEY CAN SHIP MILLIONS OF CARDBOARD PACKAGES EVERY DAY.

ALL I KNOW IS I WANT TO GET MY PAPER TOWELS AND TOILET PAPER WITHIN 18 HOURS IF I PRESS THIS ONE BUTTON, RIGHT?

IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE SYSTEM IS BUILT TO ABSTRACT THE COSTS OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING BECAUSE IT'S SO MUCH LARGER.

AND SO I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO CYNICAL BECAUSE I DO THINK WE'RE IN A MOMENT NOW WHERE PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO THINK MORE ABOUT THESE EFFECTS AND WHAT THEY CAN DO INDIVIDUALLY TO CHANGE THEM.

BUT IT'S HARD WHEN, WHEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PRESS A BUTTON AND IT'S MUCH MORE CONVENIENT THAN IT'S EVER BEEN BEFORE.

MIKE ISAAC, THANKS SO MUCH.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.