Jaime Casap: “We’ve Failed This Generation”

AMANPOUR AND COMPANY: And now the coronavirus pandemic has thrown education around the world into chaos, and for students and teachers to adapt to new and often frustrating ways of learning. But our next guest says that it’s not all bad news. Jaime Casap spent years at Google working out how technology can be used to improve our learning experiences. Nicknamed the Education Evangelist, here he is talking to Ana Cabrera.

ANA CABRERA: Christiane, thank you. And, Jaime Casap, welcome to the program.

JAIME CASAP, FORMER GOOGLE EDUCATION EVANGELIST: Thank you very much for having me.

CABRERA: It’s great to have you here. Obviously, this is such a stressful time right now for students and parents and teachers and school administrators. And yet you say the coronavirus pandemic is the greatest thing that’s ever happened to education ever. How do you see it that way?

CASAP: Yes, I tend to exaggerate for function, right? So, I think the education system has been doing an amazing job for a very long time, right? And it is one of those things that was set up to do a factory model type of economy, where we needed people to follow repetitive tasks. That worked well for a very, very long time. What’s happened since is that the world has dramatically changed. And, because the world has dramatically changed, we need to look at the education system to make sure that that education system reflects what that new economy looks like. And so, because of the pandemic, what we’re going to be going through is a whole bunch of new innovation, because, right now, we’re trying to take the classroom model, where a teacher sits in the classroom or stands in the classroom in front of 30 students, and we’re trying to replicate that online, where there’s a teacher on a video, and 30 students trying to pay attention. And what’s going to happen is that educators and education leaders and researchers are going to realize like this doesn’t work, we’re going to need to come up with something new. And so I think that’s what’s going to happen in the next couple months, is, you’re going to start seeing some real new innovation in the education system. So I think that we needed this kind of push in education, or you would have seen gradual change, but it would have happened real slowly. And the world is moving too fast for that.

CABRERA: How do you see the first step? What needs to happen right now, because, obviously, to get from here to there is a longer process and people are suffering right now. And the challenges are very real.

CASAP: Yes. And, look, for those of us — I have been in the education space for about 15 years. And when we launched Google apps into the K-12, or we launched Chromebooks, we’re still talking about schools with computer labs. And now what we’re noticing over the last couple years is this idea that we need to have one on one, just like you have a device, and I have a device, not just our phones, but a device where we can create things, right? The phone is great. And kids have phones, but it’s very passive. What we need are devices in kids’ hands, so that they can create things. And so one of the components that we need to do is to make sure that our kids, our students have access to the technology. And those of us that have been talking about equity in education for a very long time have been screaming about equity in education. And I think now there’s a general public recognition that we have some real issues when it comes to equity in education. And so I think that awareness is going to lead to a lot of action.

CABRERA: The awareness is there. But there’s still the logistical challenges, one being funding, right?

CASAP: Sure. Yes.

CABRERA: That’s a huge, huge challenge. We hear from state governments that they’re looking at billions of dollars in projected budget deficits right now, $30 billion in New York, for example, $3 billion in a place like Colorado. And we have Congress deadlocked over another stimulus.

CASAP: Yes.

CABRERA: And so where does the money come from?

CASAP: Yes, that’s a great question. And I think that the — that we start with the focus, right? And I think schools have always been a second thought, right? And I think, again, back to this awareness thing, not only do we have awareness around equity issues. I mean, I have teacher friends who are shopping in a supermarket, and people recognize her as a teacher, and they walk by her and they say, thank you for your service, like she’s in the military, like there’s this recognition that teachers are important, that education is important, that schools are important to our community, as opposed to as a second thought or this thing that we just took advantage of. And so I think it starts with this idea that the education system in our community should be the central point. And so I think that what I’m hoping will happen is that local governments, state governments, federal government and corporations that live in those communities start taking advantage of the fact that we see education or our schools as the center point of our community, and that we start funding those schools at the levels that we need, so that we have the right educators in place, so that we have the right technology in place, so that we have the right systems in place. Because everyone is starting to recognize that — how important schools are. And, look, I — money is one of those things that’s always going to be an issue. But it really comes down to what our priorities are. And what I’m hoping that happens through this process is that, all of a sudden, we see education as one of the most important priorities that we can focus on. And that’s always been something that we have wanted. And I think it’s going to happen now.

CABRERA: Let’s talk about Chromebooks, because you have been part of that transformation when it comes to education.

CASAP: Sure.

CABRERA: And we are seeing a more widespread use of this kind of device. And you launched this several years ago. You couldn’t have predicted what was going to happen now with this pandemic. Did you ever imagine the scale in which they’d be used?

CASAP: No. So, when I — so, I was at Google for 15 years, focused on education and trying to bring technology into education, mostly because I think it levels the playing field. I think it’s a great equalizer when it comes to access to information. Information equals education. Having access to information as cheaply as possible is an important element to this. So, that was — always been my focus when I was at Google. And so the Chromebook to me was this device that could not just benefit the user. Not only did it boot up in five seconds. Not only was it cheap. Not only was it easy to use. Not only could anyone use them. They were great for the administrator, because, when you’re running a school, most schools are small schools. And so the tech director also happens to be the basketball coach and the history teacher. And when you throw 2,000 machines into a school, it gets complicated very fast. And so what I saw the potential of the Chromebook was that you could actually scale very fast. So you could have one person literally manage 120,000 Chromebooks in a school district. And that was going to benefit all the students and all the educators, because now they had access to all the tools that are out there, because everything that we do is now online. And so having access to all those resources, all that research, all those tools was an important element to this. And I think that’s what the Chromebook did.

CABRERA: We are fortunate where I live for our public school district to be able to issue Chromebooks to every student in the district in order to make this learning remotely work during the pandemic. However, I’m overhearing the lessons, and I too often hear the teacher having to brainstorm technology issues with the students right now, so, oh, the audio dropped out, oh, the link isn’t working, oh, my Wi-Fi had a blip. And so I do worry that the quality of education and learning is suffering. Is that a concern of yours?

CASAP: Yes, but I think the quality of education is suffering more because of what we’re teaching students more than the technology. I think, again, the innovation is going to happen, right? So you have those bugs. Those things happen. Buttons aren’t the right place. Those are easy to fix, right? Those are — you go to Zoom and you say, hey, Zoom, there’s people bombing our meetings. Oh, let’s just set up a pass code. Those things are — those things will get fixed. Those — like bugs, those things will get fixed over time. I’m more worried about what we’re teaching our students, right, because if what we’re teaching students are things that machines can do better, we’re failing them. So, right, so you got 45 minutes of chemistry, 45 minutes of history, 45 minutes of math, 45 minutes of literature. That that’s not going to cut it, right? What we need to do is really focus on those human skills that our students need. But I think about my 6-year-old, and what the skills that I want her to have nothing to do with subject areas. It has to do with collaboration, problem solving, critical thinking, the ability to learn, creativity. Those are the things that our students need to know how to do, regardless of what the subject is.

CABRERA: What you’re saying is the importance of collaboration and problem solving.

CASAP: Yes.

CABRERA: And a lot of those types of things are developed in the classroom, aren’t they, with those interactions between students, the ability for a student to ask a question of the teacher, the hands-on learning that takes place so often. So, are you advocating remote learning in place of in-class learning? Or do you see it being a little bit of everything?

CASAP: Yes. No, I think it’s a hybrid model, right, this combination of learning online, learning because you have a device in front of you, and then going out and doing it. That’s just the way it’s always been, and so going out and collaborating and doing it. And, look, you and I are having a conversation. We’re collaborating over this topic, and we’re doing it online. Would it be better if we sat in the same place face to face and we had that? Absolutely. But we got to — we got to deal with what we have. And this isn’t a long- term solution. This isn’t something that’s going to go on forever. But this idea of learning and then going and doing, and learning and doing, and what we have in schools right now, what your kids and what my kids have, isn’t that, right? I know you — we think that kids are in school collaborating, but they’re not. They’re sitting in the classroom quietly listening to someone speak for six hours, and that’s not going to get us there.

CABRERA: So, I’m hearing you say it’s really important for students to learn how to use technology.

CASAP: Yes. We have given this generation a pass, right? When I talk to students, I tell them that they have been lied to. We call this generation the digital generation. We call them the Internet generation. We tell them like, you are born with technology, you just know how to do it, you’re natural at it. And it’s not true. There’s great — Stanford has some great studies that show us that 80 percent of high school kids can’t pick out the fake story out of four stories presented to them. Elementary school kids can’t tell you what a sponsored news site is vs. a real news site. Like, we have to give them the skills that they need, not just how to touch buttons and how to use it, but how to access information, how to vet information, how to make sense of information, how to know whether something’s credible or not. And we have we failed this generation, because we have told them that they’re supposed to be good with technology, and so they don’t turn around and ask us a lot of questions, because they — we put in our head, that wait, I’m supposed to be good at this. But I don’t know how fiber works. I don’t know how Bluetooth works. I don’t know how the Internet works. And so what we need to do is take a step back and really focus on helping them build the digital skills that they need.

CABRERA: Let me take it a step further, though, because, again, in order to learn, you have to be able to focus on that learning. And again, in the time we’re in, with the pandemic, there are bigger issues. It’s not just access to technology. A report just got from UNICEF and Save the Children found this pandemic has led to 15 percent increase in the number of children living in poverty around the world right now.

CASAP: Right.

CABRERA: And they say that represents an additional 150 million children who don’t have access, not only to education, but to housing and nutrition and health services, sanitation, even clean water. In fact, the CEO of Save the Children said this — quote — “This pandemic has already caused the biggest global education emergency in history. And the increase in poverty will make it very hard for the most vulnerable children and their families to make up for the loss.” How do you make sure those most vulnerable children and communities aren’t left behind, especially when some families are just trying to survive?

CASAP: Yes. Look, I grew up — I’m a first-generation American. I grew up on welfare and food stamps in Hell’s Kitchen, New York, back in the ’70s and ’80s, when it was really — when the name was deserved, right, back then. And I grew up poor. I grew up sometimes many months going by without electricity, some days without food. And so this is personal to me, right? This idea that people are growing up like, that kids are growing up like that anywhere in the world is something that I feel personally. I think that education is the key to this, right? And I think that we should focus on education. And I get that this is a terrible thing that’s happening to us. But what I — looking at this as a glass-half-full opportunity, the way we need to look at this is that education has to become a priority for us. It has to become something that we focus on, because that’s the only thing, in my opinion, that helps students get out of poverty, is this idea of learning how to do stuff, learning how to skill, learning a craft, learning things. I mean, we have an opportunity, because we live in this world now where we have a long tail economy, where any kid can pick up a laptop and have a great idea, and then start that idea, and launch it, and have a business running, right? That’s the world that we live in.

CABRERA: I know you focus right now in your work on equity and diversity and inclusion, in partnership with higher education institutions and school systems. Why do you think communities of color are disproportionately impacted, with fewer education resources and opportunities than their white counterparts?

CASAP: Well, there’s a lot of reasons. And we can go back and — we can go back to the 1800s to dive deeper into some of these reasons, the structural — structural things that we have done in the education system. But, right now, the main thing that we can focus on is the funding issue, right, this idea that we fund school, we fund education based on zip codes, that, if you live in a great zip code, your school has a lot of money, but if you live in a bad zip code, your school doesn’t have a lot of money, and it’s all based on property tax. And that, to me, is the number one place that we can focus, because it shouldn’t be that way. We don’t find other public services like that, right? The police department in a rich neighborhood doesn’t have better police cars than the police department in a poor neighborhood. They don’t have bicycles, right? Like, it doesn’t make any sense. And so I think the first thing that we can do is understand that we really have an equity issue. And what it means and the difference — and many people think equity means equality, and that means that you have a rich school district and a poor school district, and we should fund them the same. That’s not equity. Equity is understanding that this poor school district is going to need a lot more resources than the rich school district, because they’re dealing with more issues, and we need to fund those schools appropriately. We need to make sure that the best teachers are there, the best resources are there, the best support structures are there. And that’s what equity is.

CABRERA: Let me end on this. What is your advice to students who are struggling with education right now?

CASAP: Yes. So, I think — when I think about education — and, again, I always — I do a lot of presentations. And I always start with this idea that education is what disrupts poverty. And what I mean by education isn’t education system. I mean education, making yourself a better person, making yourself smarter. And so, for students who are struggling with education — and I was one of those too, right? You don’t really find yourself for a very long time. When I talk to students, this is the question. I don’t ask them what they want to be when they grow up. That question doesn’t make sense anymore. That question is an old world question. The question that I ask students is this: What problem do you want to solve? We’re natural problem solvers. That’s what we are as human beings. What problem do you want to solve? And if you don’t know, spend some time thinking about the problem. It doesn’t have to be a global problem. It doesn’t have to be climate change. It can be how to make cars go faster, how to how to sell more widgets, whatever that is, but what’s that problem that you want to solve? And then here’s the important question for every individual person, every individual student. How do you want to solve that problem? How do you want to take your gifts, your talents, your passions and solve that problem? Because there’s a million ways to solve problems and tackle problems. And then the last question I ask students is, what do you need to learn to solve that problem? What are the knowledge, the skills and the abilities that you have to have to solve that problem that you’re passionate about? And here’s the magic of the whole thing, is that everything that you need to learn, every skill that you want to develop is out there. And the Internet is a huge part of this. So, go out, determine what those knowledge skills and abilities are, and then go solve that problem in the way that you want to solve it that you’re passionate about. And go do that. And that, to me, is what education should be about.

CABRERA: Jaime Casap, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate the conversation.

CASAP: Thank you very much for having me.