Read Transcript EXPAND
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Tell me exactly what the pope has done. Has he broken from official doctrine? Has he created something new? Is he just clarifying views? What’s going on?
JAMES MARTIN, AUTHOR, “THE JESUIT GUIDE TO (ALMOST) EVERYTHING”: I think he’s creating a new space for LBGT people. There is a 2003 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith against same-sex unions, and the pope is obviously saying he sees things a little differently. It is — it’s momentous because he’s saying it as pope. He said it before as archbishop of Buenos Aires. He’s saying it on the record, and he’s being very clear. It’s not simple he’s tolerating it, he’s supporting.
AMANPOUR: So, what does it mean in practice, do you think, because I’m going to go back to what you mentioned about 2003 and then, of course, his predecessor, Pope Benedict, had some very different things to say about this issue, and we know that there is a struggle within the church hierarchy over how far to go with reform versus traditionalism?
MARTIN: Well, I think one thing it says is that the bishops, who are many in different countries, who are sort of violently against civil unions are going to have to rethink their positions. You know, you often have bishops in the United States and especially places like Poland who says that they are a threat to traditional marriage. Now, you have the pope saying he supports them. And so, they’re going to have to rethink what they are talking about. And I think on a broader level, it basically is more of a welcome mat for LBGT Catholics to make them feel more welcome in their church.
AMANPOUR: There’s quite a lot to unpack because, obviously, the pope has been saying that. His very first comment on this when asked about gay rights was, who am I to judge, and that went all over the world. It became a slogan. It went viral. So, he’s sort of been moving in that direction ever since. But certainly, here in the U.K., the Catholic Church, the cardinal has, I believe, also endorsed the idea of same-sex unions. Same happened in Argentina, which is the homeland of the pope. When he was cardinal though, he had a different view on all of this, and he then basically said, OK, well, same-sex unions stave off the idea of same-sex marriage. Can you unpick all of this for us?
MARTIN: Well, I think it seems like the church is understanding LBGT people and perhaps reflecting on their experience of being in civil unions, of being in partnerships like that and he may have changed his thinking and he may just have had more experience of talking with LBGT people. He has, I know, you know, for a fact, he has friends who are LBGT. He speaks to them. You know, I spent half an hour with him last year speaking about LBGT issues. So, he’s well informed and he may have, in a sense, as we say in the church, developed his own doctrine, right. He sorts of come to an understanding of things in a different way which enabled him to speak more positively in this documentary.
About This Episode EXPAND
Jesuit priest James Martin responds to Pope Francis’ public endorsement of same sex civil unions. Xernona Clayton and Martha S. Jones reflect on civil rights and the election. Paola Ramos discusses the Latinx vote and her new book. Journalist Jessica Huseman joins Michel Martin to debunk voting misconceptions.
LEARN MORE