November 4, 2020

> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WE HAVE A TEAM WORKING DAY AND NIGHT UNTIL EVERY VOTE IS COUNTED.

WE WILL BE HERE UNTIL THE JOB IS DONE.

A NAIL BITING ELECTION FOR AMERICANS AND THE WATCHING WORLD, BILLED AS A REFERENDUM ON DONALD TRUMP, IT IS A SQUEAKER ON VOTES STILL BEING COUNTED.

TONIGHT I'LL SPEAK TO OHIO'S REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, MIKE DEWINE, MICHIGAN CONGRESSWOMAN ELISSA SLOTKIN, NOAH FELDMAN AND NORBERT ROTTGEN WILL JOIN ME WITH AN ALLIED VIEW.

THE PRIMARY QUESTION ON MOST AMERICANS' MINDS NO MATTER HOW THIS SHAKES OUT, DO WE HAVE A DEMOCRACY THAT WE CAN TRUST.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS ABOUT WHETHER ANY CANDIDATE CAN FORGE UNITY NOW.

> 'AMANPOUR & CO.' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE PERHAPS, EVERYONE.

ALL EYES RODE AND NFC AMERICA ARE ON A HANDFUL OF STATES AS THE RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE CONTINUES.

THE BLUE TSUNAMI THE DEMOCRATS HAVE HOME FOR WAS STOPPED BY A REPUBLICAN WAR AMID RECORD TURNOUT.

BUT DEMOCRACY IS UNDER FIRE AS PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP FALSELY CLAIMED VICTORY, CALLED FOR VOTE COUNTING TO STOP AND ACCUSED THE DEMOCRATS OF TRYING TO STEAL THE ELECTION WITH NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

ON IT WAS FROIKTD PLAY OUT BECAUSE OF THE UNPRECEDENTED VOTING SCHEDULE.

BE TALLIED INCLUDING IN THE BATTLEGROUND STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA.

AND HERE'S WHAT THE GOVERNOR THERE.

.

MAKE NO MISTAKE.

OUR DEMOCRACY IS BEING TESTED IN THIS ELECTION.

THIS IS A STRESS TEST OF THE IDEALS UPON WHICH THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED.

AND THE BASIC RULE OF ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE.

THAT STILL CARRIES.

AND IT HAS TO CARRY HERE.

MEANWHILE, DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE JOE BIDEN HAD A SIMPLE MESSAGE.

WHOEVER WINS WILL BE, QUOTE, THE DECISION OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

NOW, VOTERS IN OHIO GAVE AN EARLY WIN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

A STATE THAT WAS CRITICAL TO HIS VICTORY BACK IN 2016.

IT WAS A AS A RESULT THAT MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT PREDICTED, MIKE DEWINE WHO JOINS ME FROM CEDARVILLE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU HE AGREED WITH WHAT YOUR COUNTER PART IN PENNSYLVANIA SAID.

THIS IS A STRESS TEST FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT AMERICA EMERGE FROM THIS WITH ITS DEMOCRATIC VALUES INTACT?

ABSOLUTELY.

WE'VE DONE THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

WE BATTLE, THE RHETORIC GETS HOT RIGHT UP TO THE ELECTION.

WE'RE DIVIDED.

WE PUT THINGS TOGETHER.

WINNERS WIN, LOSERS LOSE AND WE GO ON ABOUT OUR BUSINESS.

SO THIS IS, SOME PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IT BUT I'M FRANKLY NOT CONCERNED ABOUT IT.

THE VOTES WILL BE COUNTED.

THE FACTS WILL DETERMINE WHO THE NEXT PRESIDENT IS, WHO GETS THE VOTES, THE MOST ELECTORAL VOTES.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE SOME STATES THAT ARE SLOW AT COUNTING.

BUT THAT IS THE WAY IT IS.

SO YOU KNOW, THEY WILL GET IT RIGHT AND WE'LL END UP, YOU KNOW, GETTING THE RESULT.

AND PEOPLE WILL ABIDE BY THAT.

THE PRESIDENT --

I'M NOT TOO WORRIED ABOUT IT.

OKAY, GOOD.

I'M GOING TO PUT SOME SPECIFICS TO YOU.

FIRST YOUR OWN STATE, THE PRESIDENT WON IT HANDILY.

DID HE THE PREVIOUS ONE AS WELL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE KEY ISSUES?

WHY DO YOU THINK HE MANAGED TO DO THAT?

HE WON IN SOME HISTORICALLY DEMOCRAT AREAS.

JEFFERSON COUNTY, PLACES THAT YOU KNOW, FOR DECADES, HAS BEEN, HAVE BEEN ELECTING DEMOCRATS.

BUT I THINK WHAT REALLY HE WON BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL, PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM FEEL HE HAS THEIR BACK.

THAT HE'S A FIGHTER, AND THAT HE FIGHTS FOR THEM.

AND OHIOANS FOR A LONG TIME HAVE ELECTED CANDIDATES.

U.S. SENATE GOVERNOR OF BOTH PARTIES, WHO THEY THINK ARE FIGHTERS FOR THEM.

AND I THINK IF I HAD TO GIVE YOU ONE REASON.

AND TRUMP OFFICIALS SAID THAT HIS SUPPORTERS, HIS DEVOTES WOULD WALK OVER CUT GLASS FOR HIM.

WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE FOR THEM?

OF COURSE, WE'RE IN THE CORONAVIRUS ERA.

WE'VE GOT MORE THAN 230,000 AMERICANS DEAD.

AND IT WAS A BIG ISSUE FOR MANY PEOPLE.

WHICH WAS THE ISSUE THAT PUT HIM OVER THE TOP IN YOUR STATE?

I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE WAS ONE ISSUE.

I THINK IT IS A PERCEPTION WHETHER IT IS TRADE AGREEMENTS, WHATEVER IT IS.

THIS GUY IS THROUGHOUT FIGHTING FOR THE PEOPLE.

WE ARE STILL A STATE THAT IS KIND OF A PURPLE STATE.

WE CAN GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

WE'RE PROBABLY NOW SLIGHTLY RIGHT OF CENTER STATE BUT IT IS STILL A STATE THAT A DEMOCRAT CAN WIN FOR U.S. SENATE, SUCH AS SHERROD BROWN.

A STATE THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD WIN BY YOU KNOW, AN EQUAL AMOUNT A COUPLE YEARS LATER.

SO IT IS A STATE THE.

DISCERNS WHO THEY THINK IS THE FIGHTER FOR THEM.

GOVERNOR, YOU'VE JUST MENTIONED THE INTEGRITY COUNTING AND THE ELECTION WILL BE UPHELD.

YOU'RE SURE OF THAT.

WE'VE SEEN THE SENATOR FROM OHIO ALSO SAYING THE SAME THING.

BOB PORTMAN.

THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS CLEAR, ALL VOTES WILL BE COUNTED.

WE'VE SEEN OTHER VERY SENIOR REPUBLICANS VERY UPSET WITH WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID LAST NIGHT.

WHETHER IT IS RICK SANTORUM, CHRIS CHRISTIE, ADAM KINSINGER, THEY'RE VERY UPSET.

THE GOP IS SAYING THERE IS NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO FIND ANY FRAUD, UNLIKE WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID.

CAN I ASK YOU YOUR VIEW?

I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF THE PRESIDENT FALSELY CLAIMING VICTORY, CALLING IT FRAUD, SAYING THERE WAS THEFT OF THE ELECTION.

VOTES ARE CONTINUING TO BE COUNTED.

THIS IS VERY, VERY -- THIS IS, I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND.

DO YOU AS A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR DENOUNCE THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT SAID THAT THIS ELECTION WAS BEING STOLEN?

LOOK.

ALL THIS IS FACT SPECIFIC.

LET ME EXPLAIN HOW THIS HAPPENS.

EVERY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN FOR DECADES IN OHIO.

EACH SIGH HAS LAWYERS.

EACH STATE.

IF THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG, THESE LAWYERS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO INTO A COURT OF LAW AND FILE A LAWSUIT.

AND A COURT WILL MAKE THOSE DETERMINATIONS.

SO IT'S VERY FACT SPECIFIC.

WE HAVE A SYSTEM AND THE SYSTEM WORKS EXCEEDINGLY WELL.

SO IF THERE IS A DISPUTE ABOUT SOMEONE CHEATING OR THERE IS A DISPUTE ABOUT A COUNT GOING WRONG, THE COURTS ARE OPEN.

LAWSUITS CAN BE FILED.

COURTS CAN MAKE THE DECISIONS.

WE ARE A NATION OF THE RULE OF LAW.

AND THAT WILL WIN OUT.

I'M SO INTERESTED.

YOU'RE CLEARLY SAYING YOU DON'T PARTICULARLY LIKE THE IDEA OF A PRESIDENT CALLING FRAUD WITH NO EVIDENCE, SAYING THAT HIS OPPONENTS ARE STEALING IT BUT YOU WON'T COME OUT AND SAY IT.

LOOK, WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF.

. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT.

I'M NOT SEEING ANY EVIDENCE OF.

AT ALL.

BUT AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN EVERY STATE.

SO WE WAIT.

AND I THINK THIS IS THE TIME WHEN I'VE ADVISED OUR BE CONSTITUENTS IN OHIO, TAKE BREATH.

WE'LL HAVE A NEW PRESIDENT.

WE'RE NOT SURE WHO IT IS YET.

LET THE PROCESS WORK.

LET THE VOTES BE COUNTED.

IF THERE IS ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT, EITHER SIDE, THE BIDEN SIDE, THE TRUMP SIDE.

WE WILL ABIDE BY WHAT JUDGES SAY IF THERE IS A DISPUTE.

WELL, OF COURSE, PART OF THIS PROCESS.

IT CHANGES WHAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT AS THESE VOTES ARE PROGRESSIVELY COUNTED.

I WANT TO ASK YOU.

WISCONSIN HAS BEEN CALLED FOR VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WE UNDERSTAND FROM THE WHITE HOUSE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS A RECOUNT THERE TO CHALLENGE THAT.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THAT?

I GUESS ANOTHER WAY OF PUTTING IT IS, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS SO CLOSE.

THAT THERE WASN'T THIS TSUNAMI THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAD HOPED FOR.

WELL, THE POLLSTERS WERE WRONG ONCE AGAIN.

THEY'VE BEEN WRONG CONSISTENTLY WITH DONALD TRUMP.

AND I'M NOT SURE, YOU HAVE TO ASK THE POLLSTERS WHY THEY WERE WRONG.

THIS IS A DEEPLY DIVIDED COUNTRY.

A COUNTRY SPLIT VERY, VERY CLOSELY.

AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE RESULTS.

DO YOU HAVE ANY HOPE NO MAT HERE WINS, THERE MIGHT BE AN EFFORT, A SUCCESSFUL EFFORT TO REUNITE THE COUNTRY?

TO UNIFY IT?

IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?

ABSOLUTELY.

I SENT A LETTER TO OUR CONSTITUENTS HERE IN OHIO ON SUNDAY AND SAID, THE ELECTION IS ALMOST OVER.

ON WEDNESDAY WE'VE GOT TO PULL TOGETHER.

THIS VIRUS THAT WE'RE FIGHTING DOESN'T CARE WHETHER YOU VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP OR THE PRESIDENT.

IT IS COMING AFTER US.

SO WE HAVE A COMMON ENEMY.

NOT EACH OTHER.

NOT REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS.

WE HAVE A COMMON ENEMY AND THAT'S THIS VIRUS.

WE HAVE TO PULL TOGETHER.

THAT'S MY MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE IN THE STATE OF OHIO.

YOU ASK ABOUT RECOUNTS.

LOOK, THERE IS NOTHING IRREGULAR ABOUT RECOUNTS.

MOST STATES SAY THERE CAN BE AN AUTOMATIC RECOUNT IF ASKED IF THE VOTES ARE WITHIN A CERTAIN MARGIN.

SO A RECOUNT IS A VERY PER FUNK FUNGTORY PROCESS.

WE SHOULDN'T GET EXCITED ABOUT IT.

IF ONE SIDE WANTS A RECOUNT, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT.

THAT WILL PROCEED AND WE'LL SEE WHAT THE RESULTS ARE.

AND USUALLY RECOUNTS DON'T CHANGE RESULTS.

OCCASIONALLY THEY DO.

INDEED.

GOVERNOR DEWINE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

LET'S CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION WITH DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN ELISSA SLOTKIN OF THE FORMER CIA ANALYST HELD TO TO HER SEAT IN MICHIGAN'S EIGHTH DISTRICT.

DESPITE FEARS, ELECTION DAY HAPPENED WITHOUT ANY MAJOR INCIDENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

NO VIOLENCE OR VOTER INTIMIDATION ALTHOUGH SOME IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN DO RECALL GETTING THREATENING CALLS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU.

ARE YOU SURPRISED GIVEN ALL THE FEARS BEING DRUMMED UP OF VIOLENCE AND INTIMIDATION.

ARE YOU SURPRISED BY HOW ACTUALLY SMOOTHLY ELECTION DAY WENT?

I'M RELIEVED.

WE WERE DEFINITELY WATCHING IT VERY CLOSELY.

WE HAD VOLUNTEERS OUT OF THE POLLS.

I WENT TO 11 DIFFERENT POLLING LOCATIONS BECAUSE WE WANTED TO GET A SENSE OF THE TONE.

THE GOOD NEWS WAS DESPITE THE TURN AHEAD OF TIME, PEOPLE WERE RESPONSIBLE, THEY WORE THEIR MASKS, THEY STOOD IN LINE, THE CLERKS DID GREAT.

AND WE HAD AT LEAST IN MY DISTRICT, NO INCIDENTS AND VERY FEW INCIDENTS FROM WHAT WE CAN SEE ACROSS THE STATE.

SO RELIEVED, DEFINITELY.

YOU HELD ON TO YOUR SEAT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP DECIDED TO MAKE A LEGAL CHALLENGE AND TRY TO GET AN ORDER TO STOP COUNTING IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

WELL, LISTEN, I HEARD YOU TALKING TO THE GOVERNOR ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE A PROCESS.

WE ARE STILL A NATION OF LAWS AND RULES.

AND THERE IS A PROCEDURE IF YOU WANT TO CONTEST AN ELECTION.

BE SPECIFIC.

FILL OUT THE PAPERWORK.

SUPPORT THAT RECOUNT.

WE'VE DONE IT BEFORE.

IN MICHIGAN IN 2016, WE HAD TO DO SOME RECOUNTS.

OUR RACE WAS SO CLOSE.

SO I THINK THIS IS REALLY KIND OF A MOMENT WHERE WE NEED LEADERS TO RISE TO THE OCCASION.

AND SAY WHAT THE GOVERNOR WAS SAYING.

WE HAVE A PROCESS, A DEMOCRACY.

AND THAT'S BIGGER THAN ANY ONE PERSON OR DESIRE TO SEE OUR GUY IN POWER.

SO THAT'S WHAT I'M BANKING ON.

SO IN MICHIGAN, IT IS A REALLY KEY STATE.

GOING INTO THE ELECTION, THE POLLSTERS BASICALLY SAID, THE CORONAVIRUS, HEALTH CARE, AND WITH IT, THE ECONOMY OBVIOUSLY WERE THE MAIN ISSUES.

WHAT DID YOU SEE IN TERMS OF IN YOUR AREA?

YEAH.

I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

CERTAINLY THE PRICE OF HEALTH CARE AND THE PRICE IS WHAT PEOPLE COME UP TO ME IN THE GROCERY STORE AND THEY WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT.

PEOPLE ARE SPENDING MORE SOMETIMES ON THE INSULIN THEY NEED TO LIVE THAN THEY ARE ON THEIR MORTGAGE.

SO THOSE THINGS ARE OUT OF WHACK AND KNOWING THAT ON NOVEMBER 10th, WE HAVE THE SUPREME COURT.

HEARING ORAL ARGUMENTS TO GET RID OF THE ACA, TO END OBAMACARE AND PEOPLE WITH PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS.

THAT'S ON PEOPLE'S MINDS.

SO I THINK HEALTH CARE IS STILL A BIG FOCUS FOR PEOPLE.

BUT FRANKLY, THE THING THAT I'M HEARD ABOUT AND I'M TALKING ABOUT A LOT, HOW DO WE HEAL OURSELVES.

THE POLARIZATION WE HEAR ON THE GROUND IS TYPICALLY FOREIGN FOR MICHIGAN OF WE ARE A SWING STATE.

MOY DAD WAS A REPUBLICAN, MY MOM WAS A DEMOCRAT AND WE NEVER FOUGHT LIKE THIS.

AND I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT IT HAS TO BE LIKE THIS FOR THE FUTURE.

SO THEY ASKED ME.

HOW DO WE GET BETTER?

HOW DO WE HEAL?

WHEN PEOPLE WANT TO GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE, THAT IS A GOOD, GOOD PLACE TO START.

SO THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

I ASKED HIM, FOR THE SAKE OF THE PANDEMIC, WITH HE HAVE TO GET TOGETHER.

YOU HAVE RECEIVED THREATS.

OBVIOUSLY, IT IS VERY FAMOUS THAT YOUR GOVERNOR, GRETCHEN WHIT MIR, THERE WAS A PLAN TO KID ANIMAL HER.

THERE WAS A CHALLENGE INSIDE THE STATE HOUSE, HER LOCKDOWN ORDERS.

DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO REUNIFY COMING OUT OF THIS ELECTION?

PARTICULARLY IF ONE OR THE OTHER WINS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE CHANCES?

SURE.

THERE'S WORK THAT IS INVOLVED THERE.

I STILL BELIEVE, I WOULDN'T BE HERE WINNING A SECOND ELECTION IF THERE WEREN'T PEOPLE WHO SORT OF LIVE IN THAT MIDDLE SPACE.

THEY JUST WANT THEIR GOVERNMENT TO FUNCTION.

THEY'RE PRACTICAL PEOPLE.

THEY GET UP EVERY DAY.

THEY WANT THEIR LIVES TO BE GOOD AND THEIR KIDS' LIVES TO BE BETTER.

AND I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS HOPELESS.

I KNOW IT'S NOT BECAUSE I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ELECTED IF PEOPLE JUST WENT TO THEIR CORNERS AND DIDN'T SAY NO, WE WANT SOMETHING BETTER.

SO IT'S HARD WORK.

AND WE'VE GOT SOME STEPS TO GET THERE.

I JUST THINK IN 2020, 2021, AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.

AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY JOB IS BEING WITH PEOPLE WHO KNOW THAT THEY MISUNDERSTAND AND DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THIS OTHER GROUP OR ANOTHER SIDE.

I THINK IT IS PART OF MY JOB TO BRING THEM TOGETHER.

IF NOT NOW, THEN WHEN?

LET ME ASK YOU.

SOME OF THE SEATS IN THE HOUSE HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED SUCCESSFULLY BY TRUMP LOYALISTS.

TRUMP LOYAL SIX HERE TO STAY BECAUSE WASN'T THE BLOWOUT THAT SOME REPUBLICANS WANTED TO SEE TO SAVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS THEY SAID.

OBVIOUSLY DEMOCRATS WANTED TO SEE A BLOWOUT OF TRUMPISM.

HOW DO YOU CONTEND WITH THAT GOING FORWARD?

I THINK THE FIRST THING IS WE'RE IN THAT PHASE WHERE WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHO WON THE ELECTION.

IN A SAFE AND RESPONSIBLE WAY.

AND THAT WILL RELY ON US DIGGING DEEP AND RELYING ON OUR DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES.

WHEN I HEAR PEOPLE STEPPING UP AND SAYING, CANDIDATES DON'T GET ON PICK WHO WINS.

WE HAVE A PROCEDURE AND OUR DEMOCRACY IS BIGGER THAN ANY ONE CANDIDATE.

THAT IS A GOOD PLACE TO BE.

I THINK IT STARTS BY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT WE HAVE A SYSTEM.

LISTEN, WE'LL HAVE TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

WE'RE JUST GETTING OUR THOUGHTS TOGETHER.

ALL I KNOW IS THAT IT IS NOT AS ZERO SUM AS SOMETIMES PORTRAYED.

I WOULD NOT BE HERE IF IT WEREN'T FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST REALLY MADE A BRAVE CHOICE.

VOTED DIFFERENTLY THAN THEIR PARTY AND WHO WANTED SOMETHING BETTER.

SO IT STARTS WITH DEMOCRACY.

AND THEN THE REAL HARD WORK STARTS.

SO LAST NIGHT, WE SAW VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN GO OUT FIRST.

HE JUST URGED FOR PATIENCE.

HE SAID WE'RE VERY CONFIDENT AND WASN'T LOOKING GOOD.

HE URGED PATIENCE.

THEN WE SAW PRESIDENT TRUMP COME OUT AND MAKE ALL THESE ALLEGATIONS OF VICTORY OR THEFT.

ALL OF THESE BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

DID YOU THINK, HERE'S A GUY THROWING A TANTRUM AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING?

OR THAT THIS COULD REALLY DERAIL THE PROCESS?

FOR ME, MAYBE I'M AN ANALYST BY TRAINING IN A DIFFERENT PART OF MY LIFE.

THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN TELLING US SINCE APRIL THAT THIS IS WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO.

NO ONE SHOULD BE SURPRISED WHEN THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN TELLING US THAT HE DID YOU TELL BELIEVE IN ABSENTEE VOTING.

HE WANTS THE VOTE TO STOP WHEN THE POLLS CLOSE.

THAT HE THINKS THE ELECTION WON'T BE FAIR.

THAT IT WILL BE SKEWED.

HE'S BEEN SAYING THAT EVERY OTHER WEEK OR SO FOR SIX MONTHS.

SO NONE OF US SHOULD BE SURPRISED THAT HE LIVED UP TO THAT AND FULFILLED IT.

THE QUESTION IS FOR THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM, HIS CABINET OFFICIALS, PEOPLE IN THE COURT SYSTEM.

WILL THEY SUBSCRIBE TO THAT AND PUT DEMOCRACY ASIDE AND JUST SALUTE OR WILL THEY RISE TO THE MOMENT AND ACTUALLY LEAD AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?

THE DEMOCRACY IS MORE IMPORTANT.

THAT'S THE MOMENT WE'RE IN.

I'VE BEEN TRYING GET THE CABINET LEVEL THAT'S THE, CHAIRMAN MILLIE IS THAT THE HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY, THE DNI ON RECORD AND SAYING WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

IN THIS SCENARIO, WHAT WILL BE YOUR ROLE?

AND WE'LL SEE RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE COMING TO IT.

YEP, IT IS STILL A VERY TENSE SITUATION.

REPRESENTATIVE ELISSA SLOTKIN.

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR VICTORY.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

> SO HOW IS THE WORLD PROCESSING ALL OF THIS?

AS FATE WOULD HAVE IT, JUST AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP CHALLENGED HIS ELECTION RESULTS, THE U.S.

EMBASSY IN AFRICA CALLED FOR SHOWING COMMITMENT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS AND THE RULE OF LAW IN THEIR ELECTION WHICH HAPPENED ON THE VERY SAME DAY.

NOW A RECENT PEW SURVEY SHOWS AMERICA'S REPUTATION IS AT ITS LOWEST POINT IN A MAJORITY OF 13 ALLIED AND PARTNER COUNTRIES SINCE RECORDS BEGAN NEARLY TWO DECADES AGO.

EUROPEAN AMBASSADORS HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING THE U.S. ELECTION AT A MEETING TODAY AND MY NEXT GUEST, NORBERT ROTTGEN IS CHAIRMAN OF THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE AND HE A MEMBER OF LANGUAGE MERKEL'S PARTY.

AND HE WILL BE CHALLENGING HER WHEN SHE STEPS DOWN FROM HER TERM NEXT YEAR.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU.

WE KNOW HOW HARD GERMANY, HOW SUCCESSFULLY GERMANY WORKED AFTER THE WAR TO INSTALL DEMOCRACIES NOT JUST IN EUROPE BUT THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK AS AN ALLIED PARTNER WHEN YOU THEIR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CHALLENGING THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, EVEN BEFORE ALL THE VOTES ARE COUNTED?

WE ONLY WERE ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS THE REMARKABLE SUCCESS FOR THE FIRST TIME WE DID NOT FAIL TO BUILD UP THE DEMOCRACY.

AND IT COULD ONLY ACHIEVE THIS WITH THE HELP OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

SO WE REMAIN GRATEFUL.

AND WE SEE WHAT AMERICA HAS DONE TO US IN TERMS OF DEMOCRACY OF WEALTH, AND SO THIS WAS, HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE IDEAL FOR MANY, MANY GERMANS.

SO IT CAN ONLY BE WITH GREAT SADNESS TO SEE THAT THE ELECT PRESIDENT IN OFFICE, TRUMP, IS CHALLENGING THE VERY BASIC RULE OF DEMOCRACY WITH RESPECT FOR THE VOTES OF EVERY MAN AND EVERY WOMAN, THE EQUALITY OF VOTES, AND CLAIMING VICTORY BEFORE ALL THE VOTES HAVE BEEN COUNTED.

IT'S REALLY UNBELIEVABLE.

AND IT REALLY IS WITH GREAT SADNESS TO MANY, MANY JOURNALISTS TO SEE, TO WITNESS THIS BEHAVIOR.

AND YOUR DEFENSE SECRETARY, SHE EVEN CALLED IT AN EXPLOSIVE SITUATION.

IT COULD HAVE ALL SORTS OF CONSTITUTIONAL IMPLICATIONS.

I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK SHE MEANT BY THAT.

PARTICULARLY, IN THE MIDST OF AN ELECTION WITH ALL VOTES UNCOUNTED, MAKES THE STATEMENTS.

WHAT DOES THAT TELEGRAPH TO THE ALLIANCE?

ALSO TO ADVERSARIES AROUND THE WORLD.

AS I SAID, IT IS WITH GREAT SADNESS BUT ALSO WITHOUT ANY SURPRISE.

I'VE ALWAYS.

AND I WAS NOT THE ONLY MAN IN GERMANY.

I'VE ALWAYS SAID IF AND WHEN WE WILL SEE A TIGHT ELECTION RESULT, WE WILL SEE A FIGHT WITH ALL MEANS BY THE PRESIDENT AND IT WILL START WITH CLAIMING VICTORY BEFORE VOTES HAVE BEEN COUNTED.

THIS IS THE START OF TRYING TO OCCUPY THE PUBLIC REALM AND TO DOMINATE THE PUBLIC OPINION.

THEN HE WILL INTERVENE IN THE PROCESS OF COUNTING.

HE WILL CHALLENGE IT, CHALLENGE THEM BY THE COURTS AND WE ARE GOING TO SEE DAYS AND WEEKS OF FIGHTING AND NONACCEPTANCE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK WE HAVE GOOD REASON TO TRUST IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM AND IN THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

SO WITH FULL TRUST, DESPITE THIS, I HAVE TO SAY AWFUL BEHAVIOR, WE ARE FORCED TO WITNESS IT.

AND WHICH PERHAPS WILL LEAD AMERICANS AND SUPPORTERS OF DONALD TRUMP WHO BELIEVE IN HIS WORDS, AND SAY, YES, THIS IS A FRAUD OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

A BETRAYAL OF THE DEMOCRATIC VICTORY.

AND PERHAPS THEY WILL TURN TO MEANS AND ACTIONS WHICH ARE BEYOND THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

WE HAVE TO BE AFRAID ABOUT THAT.

WELL, IT IS INCREDIBLE TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT AND TO SPEAK SO FRANKLY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING, AND THE RESULT IS NOT YET CLEAR.

BUT I WONDER WHETHER YOU ALSO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT, IF PRESIDENT TRUMP SHOULD GET ANOTHER TERM.

I'VE HEARD EUROPEANS, OFFICIALS SAYING THAT ACTUALLY, YOUR MULTILATERAL WORLD ORDER THAT THE UNITED STATES PROPS UP AND SUPPORTS AND BACKS AND LEADS CANNOT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF TRUMPISM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I MEAN, FOR EUROPE AND FOR THE ALLIANCE, WHAT IS THE BEST RESULT FOR THE WORLD'S MULTILATERAL ORDER?

I THINK THIS IS QUITE CLEAR, WITHOUT ANY INTERFERENCE, JUST LOOKING THROUGH THE EYES OF GERMAN AND EUROPEAN INTERESTS.

WE HAVE EXPERIENCED THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE HAVE SEEN THE UNPREDICTABILITY.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, CHINA, EQUALLY TO GERMANY, IS TREATED AS AN ECONOMIC OPPONENT, AN ENEMY, MORE OR LESS AS AN ENEMY.

WE HAVE SEEN THE WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS FROM GERMANY AS A MATTER, AS AN INSTRUMENT OF PUNISHMENT OF GERMANY FOR NONCOMPLIANCE WITH AMERICAN WISHES, AND SO ON.

WE ARE SEEING THE BEHAVIOR OF TONIGHT.

AND MY CLEAR EXPECTATION WOULD BE, IF DONALD TRUMP WERE TO BE REELECTED, WE WOULD NOT SIMPLY SEE MORE OF THE SAME.

WE WOULD CERTAINLY SEE AN ACCELERATION BECAUSE WE WOULD THEN HAVE AN UNSHACKLED PRESIDENT, WHO WILL RUN FOR OFFICE ONCE AGAIN.

SO IT WOULD BE MORE THAN FOUR PLUS FOUR POLITICALLY.

THIS IS A CLEAR EXPECTATION.

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE CAN'T AFFORD TO ACCEPT FATALISM AND TO ACCEPT NONSURVIVAL.

WE HAVE TO FIGHT AND WE WOULD FIGHT FOR OUR ALLIANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES.

WE WOULD BE BACKED BY 50% OF THE AMERICAN VOTERS.

THIS IS ABOUT OUR SECURITY.

IT IS ABOUT THE WEST IN A DANGEROUS WORLD.

SO THERE IS NO OPTION FOR GIVING IN AND GIVING UP.

WE WANT TO SURVIVE AND WE WILL DO EVERYTHING FOR THAT.

IT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

YOU HAVE CERTAIN OPPOSITION PARTIES AND ALSO A GOVERNMENT IN OFFICE, IN HUNGARY, FOR INSTANCE.

VERY PRO TRUMP.

HE MODELS HIMSELF ON AN EAST EUROPEAN VERSION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HE HAS REALLY GOT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS BY THE SHORT AND CURLIES IN HUNGRY THERE.

I KNOW THAT TROUBLES THE EU.

YOU HAVE THE POPULIST ANTI-IMMIGRANT PARTIES IN FRANCE AND ITALY SAYING THAT TRUMP WOULD BE REALLY GOOD FOR EUROPE.

SO I WONDER HOW YOU FEEL THESE POPULIST PARTIES AND THESE OPPOSITION PARTIES MIGHT REACT TO EITHER A TRUMP VICTORY OR A BIDEN VICTORY.

OF COURSE.

THERE IS NO UNITY WITHIN EUROPE UPON TRUMP AND BIDEN BECAUSE IT IS NOT ONLY THE UNITED STATES AS A FREE SOCIETY WHICH IS SUFFERING FROM THE DISEASE OF FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES WHICH MANY PEOPLE CONSTANTLY GET ALONG AND CAN COPE WITH.

SO WE HAVE THIS DESIRE FOR IDENTITY, IDENTITY POLITICS.

WE HAVE POPULISM, FRAGMENTATION.

WE ARE IN THIS IN EUROPE.

WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, FOR OUR VALUES.

AND WE WOULD NOT BE 27 GOVERNMENTS IN EUROPE, TO BE ABSOLUTELY FRANK ABOUT THAT.

SO MY VISION WOULD BE TO FORGE A GROUP OF THE WILLING, OF THE ABLE, WHO ARE WILLING TO INVEST IN A FOREIGN POLICY TOGETHER WITH OTHERS.

TO GIVE LIFE AND SUBSTANCE TO AN ALLIANCE OF THE MULTILATERALISTS, AND TO COME TOGETHER AND REALLY PURSUE AN ACTION, NOT ONLY IN WORDS, A POLICY OF INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION IN VERY DIFFERENT FIELDS FROM SECURITY TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

HUMAN RIGHTS AND HUMANITARIAN AID AND SO ON.

REALLY INTERESTING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM BERLIN.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

BEFORE ELECTION DAY, WE HEARD A LOT ABOUT BOTH LAWYERING UP.

LAST NIGHT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID, HE WOULD BE GOING TO THE SUPREME COURT.

AMERICA'S TOP BRASS INSISTS, THE MILITARY IS APOLITICAL AND WILL NOT GET INVOLVED IN ANY ELECTION DISPUTES AND SO FAR ONLY MR.

TRUMP HAS BEEN THREATENING ON LITIGATE.

LET'S GET SOME PERSPECTIVE WITH NOAH FELDMAN.

A CONSTITUTIONAL EXPERT AND HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR.

HE JOINS US FROM MASSACHUSETTS.

ALL THE NEWS COMING IN, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN SAID IT HAS FILED TO STOP THE COUNT IN MICHIGAN.

APPARENTLY IT WANTS TO SEND ITS OWN OPERATIVES TO LOOK AT BALLOTS BEING OPENED.

WE KNOW THEY WANT A RECOUNT.

LET'S TAKE THE MICHIGAN ONE FIRST.

IT'S LOOKING INCREASINGLY LIKE LAST-MINUTE DESPERATION, AT LEAST IN MICHIGAN.

FOR ONE THING, BIDEN IS A BIT AHEAD IN THE COUNT THAT IS CONTINUING THERE.

SO STOPPING THE COUNTING WOULD NOT BE A WAY OF ENSURING A VICTORY.

IT WOULD JUST BE A WAY OF ENSURING A DELAY.

THAT MAKES IT LOOK AS THOUGH TRUMP IS TRYING TO AVOID A SCENARIO WHERE WISCONSIN AND MICHIGAN HAVE REPORTED OUT ALL BALLOTS.

THEY'VE REPORTED OUT ALL BALLOTS AND DRAWN THE CONCLUSION THAT BIDEN HAS WON.

IN WHICH CASE, IT WOULD LOOK VERY POSSIBLE THAT TRUMP HAD JUST PLAIN LOST THE ELECTION, PROVIDED THAT BIDEN WON IN ARIZONA.

SO IT LOOKS LIKE A DELAYING TACTIC, RATHER THAN A TACTIC WITH LEGAL LEGS.

ADDING TO THAT IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN HASN'T STATED, AS FAR AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT, A CREDIBLE LEGAL CLAIM AS TO WHY THE VOTING OUGHT TO STOP OF THEY'RE ENTITLED TO HAVE OBSERVERS IN THE POLLING PLACES.

THEY COULD HAVE OBSERVERS IN THE POLLING PLACES.

AND THE IDEA THAT THERE WOULD BE MORE PEOPLE DOESN'T HAVE ANY LEGAL BASIS.

FROM WHAT I GATHER, THE LATER VOTE COUNT IN MICHIGAN COPS WILL FROM BIG CITIES WHICH ARE TRADITIONALLY MOSTLY DEMOCRATIC.

SO WOULD PRESUMABLY BE GOING MORE TO BIDEN.

MAYBE THAT PLAYS INTO THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN'S THINKING.

WHAT ABOUT IN WISCONSIN WHERE THEY WANT A RECOUNT?

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

THAT'S LEGITIMATE, RIGHT?

PEOPLE CAN ASK FOR RECOUNTS.

OR ARE THERE SPECIAL PARAMETERS?

EACH STATE HAS ITS OWN RULES FOR WHEN A PARTY CAN REQUEST A RECOUNT AND WHEN IT CAN BE PERFORMED.

I THINK IT IS PROBABLE WHEN THE TIME COMES, AND THERE IS A FOR THATTAL TIME WHEN THEY CAN REQUEST IT.

IT HASN'T COME YET.

WHEN THAT OCCURS, THE WISCONSIN MARGIN WOULD BE WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF THE STATE LAW SO IT IS LEGITIMATE TO SEE A RECOUNT THERE.

PRESUMABLY WHAT IT WOULD DO IS TO CHALLENGE INDIVIDUAL BALLOTS CAST IN FAVOR OF JOE BIDEN IN ORDER TO CHIP AWAY AT THE ROUGHLY 20,000 VOTE MARGIN OF SPRANG BIDEN SEEMS TO HAVE.

BUT YES, THAT'S WITHIN THE RULES OF THE GAME.

AND IT WON'T MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IF IT DOESN'T COME DOWN TOM STATE.

MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL TRAUMATIZED BY THE 2000 ELECTION AND THE STOPPING THE VOTE COUNT AND ALL OF THAT.

GOING TO THE SUPREME COURT.

CAN YOU PUT THIS IN CONTEXT OF 2000?

PARTICULARLY WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING IN THAT FAMOUS DIATRIBE LAST NIGHT, THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO TO THE SUPREME COURT?

YES.

YOU KNOW, IN THE 2000 RECOUNT EFFORT, AND I WAS THERE ON THE GROUND AS A BABY LAWYER LITIGATING FOR AL GORE, THE RECOUNT, THE FIGHTS OVER EACH AND EVERY BALLOT WAS THAT THE MARGIN WAS VERY SMALL.

IT WAS A MARGIN OF HUNDREDS.

WHERE THE MARGIN IS AS IT APPEARS TO BE IN WISCONSIN, MORE IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS, IT IS VERY UNLIKELY THAT A NUMBER OF VOTES COULD BE FLIPPED SUCH AS TO CHANGE A BASIC OUTCOME.

SO.

IN SENSE IT'S A BIT LESS FRIGHTENING AND ONE SHOULD BE LESS TRAUMATIZED THAN THE BUSH V GORE SCENARIO.

HOWEVER, WHEN IT COMES TO ASKING THE VOTE STOP IN MICHIGAN, THAT'S MUCH MORE EGREGIOUS THAN WHAT EITHER PARTY SAW IN THE BUSH V GORE SITUATION.

THERE THE QUESTION WAS TO CONTINUE A RECOUNT.

VERY SERIOUS.

THE VOTES HAD AT LEAST BEEN COUNTED ONCE.

IN MICHIGAN, NOT ALL THE VOTES HAVE BEEN COUNTED.

SO IT WOULD BE AN EGREGIOUS UNDERCUTTING OF DEMOCRACY IF THE VOTES WERE NOT COUNTED AT ALL.

EVEN THE FIRST TIME AROUND.

THAT'S ONE REASON THE COURTS ARE UP LIKELY TO LOOK VERY FAVORABLY UPON THAT REQUEST.

THE BIDEN LAWYER SAYS, THE CAMPAIGN LAWYER SAYS, IF TRUMP TRIES TO GET THE SUPREME COURT TO STOP THE COUNT, HE'LL BE DEALT ONE OF THE MOST EMBARRASSING DEFEAT A PRESIDENT HAS EVER SUFFERED IN THE HIGHEST COURT OF LAND.

THIS WAS JUST IN GENERAL.

DO YOU EXPECT JUDGE BARRETT, JUSTICE BARRETT, TO RECUSE HERSELF?

TO BE PARTY TO ANY ADJUDICATION SHOULD IT COME BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT?

I KNOW YOU THINK IT DOESN'T HAVE LEGS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT HER?

I THINK JUSTICE BARRETT, IF THERE WERE A WAY FOR HER TO AVOID WEIGHING IN ON A SITUATION WHERE THE OUTCOME WAS IN ANY WAY KNOWN, SHE WOULD TRY TO AVAIL HERSELF OF IT.

SHE'S WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT RECUSAL.

IF THE ONLY GROUND FOR RECUSAL WOULD BE THAT SHE HAD BEEN NOMINATED BY THE PRESIDENT, THAT WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE SUFFICIENT GROUNDS FOR HER TO CLUES TO RECUSE.

WHEN SHE DECLINED TO WEIGH IN ON THE PENNSYLVANIA ISSUE A COUPLE DAYS AFTER SHE HAD BEEN CONFIRMED ACCIDENT SHE HAD A STATEMENT ISSUED BY THE SUPREME COURT SAYING SHE HAD NOT HAD TIME TO READ THE BRIEFS.

AND THAT WAS THE SORT OF POLITE WAY OF SAYING, I REALLY WOULD LIKE NOT TO BE INVOLVED WITH THIS.

THE QUESTION IS, COULD SHE SAY SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THAT AT THIS LATE STAGE?

AND IT BACK'S LITTLE HARDER TO SAY THAT SHE ISN'T UP TO SPEED.

I WOULD ADD THAT THE COURT AS A WHOLE CAN ALSO AVOID WEIGHING IN ON THIS ISSUE OR ANY OF THESE ISSUES IF IT THINKS THAT THE OUTCOME DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE PARTICULAR ISSUES BEING BROUGHT BEFORE IT.

IT TAKES FOUR JUSTICES TO AGREE TO HEAR A CASE.

BUT IT MIGHT BE THAT THERE AREN'T FOUR JUSTICES WHO AGREE TO HEAR THE CASE IF THEY THINK IT WON'T BE RELEVANT.

SO THERE IS A WAY FOR THE COURT AS A WHOLE.

AND THAT WOULD PROTECT JUSTICE BARRETT AS WELL.

I WANT TO ASK YOU FOR THE SAKE OF VIEWERS WHO MIGHT BE WONDERING, MIGHT THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SOME KIND OF MERIT WHEN HE SAYS, ON TUESDAY NIGHT BEFORE I WENT TO BED, I WAS WINNING.

AND THEN AS THE MORNING PROGRESSED, ALL THESE VOTES SUDDENLY CAME FROM SOMEWHERE, IMAGINALLY APPEARED, AND NOW BIDEN SEEMS TO BE LEADING IN CERTAIN STATES.

THAT'S AGAIN CASTING ASPERSIONS ON THE LEGITIMACY AND THE CREDIBILITY OF THE COUNT.

CAN YOU JUST PUT IN CONTEXT?

PRESUMABLY BECAUSE VOTES ARE BEING COUNTED, RIGHT?

YES.

IT IS AN UNPRECEDENTED CLAIM BY A PRESIDENT AND TOTALLY CONTRARY TO THE FACTS.

THE FACTS ARE THAT THE BALLOTS WERE CAST AND THEY ARE NOW BEING COUNTED.

IT OFTEN TAKES ALL NIGHT OR INTO THE NEXT DAY TO DOWNTOWN BALLOTS.

IN SOME INSTANCES, AS IN PENNSYLVANIA, ONE OF THE REASONS IT IS TAKING SO LONG IS THAT STATE LAW DIDN'T ALLOW THE STATE OFFICIALS WHOSE JOB IT IS TO COUNT THE BALLOTS, TO START COUNTING THE MAIL-IN BALLOTS UNTIL THE END OF THE DAY.

THERE WAS NO WAY THEY WOULD BE FINISH IN THE TIME OF IT IS NOT THAT THEY'RE COMING FROM SOMEWHERE.

THEY'RE JUST MAIL-IN BALLOTS THAT WERE MAILED IN PRIOR TO THE DEADLINE.

WHAT IS REALLY WORRISOME IS THE IDEA OF A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BEGINNING A STAGE TWO OF DELEGITIMIZATION.

EVEN AFTER EVERYONE ELSE SAID THAT, HE'S SAYING HE WAS CHEATED.

AND IT IS VERY TROUBLING TO WILL AIZE OVERSEAS AS WELL.

THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

YOU KNOW, IF BIDEN WERE TO LOSE, IT WOULD BE THE THIRD DEMOCRAT TO LOSE IN ABOUT 20 YEARS, HAVING HAD A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT POPULAR VOTE ADVANTAGE.

AND BIDEN SEEMS TO BE ON TRACK FOR A SIGNIFICANT POPULAR VOTE LEAD NO MATTER WHAT.

THEY SAY IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION.

WHAT DO I KNOW?

IS IT REALLY FAIR?

REALLY SERIOUSLY, CAN YOU HAVE A COUNTRY LIKE THE UNITED STATES BEING RULED NOT BY THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULAR VOTE?

YES, IT IS IN THE CONSTITUTION AND NO, IT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC.

IT IS ONE OF THE FEATURES OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT IS UNDEMOCRATIC.

THE SENATE REPRESENTATION IS ANOTHER.

THE SMALLEST STATE GETS TWO REPRESENTATIVES IN THE SENATE AND THE LARGEETT STATE GETS TWO.

THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE UNDEMOCRAT WLIK THE RESOLUTION WAS ADOPTED.

SO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION ISN'T DEMOCRATIC AT ALL.

AND THE QUESTION IS CAN THE PUBLIC BE MOTIVATED OF TAKING A VERY BRAVE STEP OF CHANGING THE CONSTITUTION?

THAT'S IN PRINCIPLE, POSSIBLE.

BUT DIFFICULT TO GET THE CONSENSUS AROUND DOING IT IF THERE ARE STATES THAT BENEFIT BY THIS MOD THAT HE WILL WOULD HAVE TO CONSENT TO A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE.

THEY SAY IT HAPPENED ONCE IN 1844.

NOW THREE TIMES POTENTIALLY IN THE 21st CENTURY.

PEOPLE LOOK AT IT ABROAD.

THEY'RE REALLY PUZZLED BY IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

WE'RE SEEING TRUMP'S CORE SUPPORT REMAIN STEADFAST.

OUR NEXT GUESTS TAKE A STEP BACK TO LOOK AT WHY THIS IS.

JASON STANLEY IS FROM YALE UNIVERSITY AND THE AUTHOR OF 'HOW FASCISM WORKS.'

AND TED JOHNSON IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE.

HOW TO RESTORE FAITH IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

THANKS.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

WE ARE SPEAKING THE MORNING AFTER THE ELECTION.

THERE IS STILL NOT A PRESIDENT DECIDED.

THE VOTES ARE STILL BEING COUNTED.

JASON, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, WE'VE ALREADY WON.

THOSE ARE SOME OF THE WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF PRESIDENT'S MOUTH AROUND 2:30ISH IN THE MORNING.

WHEN YOU SAW HIS SPEECH, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND?

FIRST OF ALL, A TYPICAL AUTHORITARIAN STRATEGY.

HE ANNOUNCED, I MEAN, TYPICAL AUTHORITARIAN BEHAVIOR.

HE'S BEEN ANNOUNCING HE WOULD DO THIS FOR MONTHS.

SO NO ONE SHOULD BE SURPRISED.

SECRETARILY IT SHOWS REMARKABLE LONG TERM PLANNING.

MONTHS AND MONTHS AGO THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCED THAT AN ATTACK ON THE POST OFFICE.

HE CLAIMED THAT THERE WAS VOTER FRAUD WHEN THERE WASN'T.

THE COVID DENIALISM THAT HE SPREAD MEANT THAT HIS VOTERS WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO APPEAR ON THE SAME DAY TO CAST THEIR VOTES.

SO WE ALWAYS KNEW THAT HE IS GOING TO HAVE THE LEAD AMONG SAME DAY IN-PERSON VOTERS.

SO THIS HAS BEEN THE STRATEGY ALL ALONG.

TO DECLARE VICTORY THAT NIGHT BEFORE THE VOTES THE HE'S ALREADY ANNOUNCED AND BEEN PUSHING AS FRAUDULENT COME IN.

SO IT IS A VERY CHER STRATEGY TO UNDERMINE.

THIS STARTS TO, I THINK, TAKE EVEN AN ARDENT SUPPORTER OF THE PRESIDENT AND MAKE US THINK A LITTLE ABOUT, WAIT, WHAT'S HAPPENING?

WHO ARE WE?

BOTH AS INDIVIDUALS AND AS A NATION.

ABSOLUTELY.

THE PRIMARY QUESTION, I THINK, WILL BE ON MOST AMERICANS' MINDS, NO MATTER HOW THIS SHAKES OUT.

DO WE HAVE A DEMOCRACY THAT WE CAN TRUST?

IS OUR ELECTORAL PROCESSES, OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, ARE THEY LEGITIMATE?

IF THIS TURNED OUT TO BE A SQUEAKER, WHERE MAYBE ONE WINS, 270-268, OR JUST A FEW ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES OFF OF THAT.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO QUESTION THE SYSTEM.

AND OUR NATIONAL LEADERS, BOTH IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AS WELL AS MAYBE ESPECIALLY IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, IT WILL BE INCUMBENT UPON THEM TO PUT THE NATION AT EASE AND REASSURE FOLKS THAT THE STATES HAVE DONE THEIR JOBS.

THAT LOCAL AND COUNTY DONE ACCURATE COUNTIES.

THAT THE RESULTS THEY HAVE PUT FORWARD AND BEING REPORTED BY THE MEDIA ARE WORTH TRUSTING.

IF ANY OF.

BREAKS DOWN, IF FOLKS CALL INTO DOUBT RECORDED NUMBER OF VOTES, THEN WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT.

AND THAT'S A PRIMARY CONCERN MUCH MORE SO THAN CIVIL UNREST ARE FOR MOST AMERICANS.

DO WE HAVE A DEMOCRACY FUFL INSTITUTIONS, ACTORS, AND PROCESS THAT'S WE CAN TRUST?

IN 2016, IMMIGRATION WAS ONE OF THE BACK BONES OF HIS CAMPAIGN.

HE STARTED HIS SPEECH AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ESCALATOR, TALKING ABOUT MEXICO SENDING RAPISTS AND CRIMINALS ACROSS THE BORDER.

IN 2020.

IN A WAY THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT BECAME FUNDAMENTAL TO THIS UNDERSTANDING.

EVEN GIVEN THAT THERE WAS AN ENTIRE PANDEMIC GOING ON AND OUR ECONOMY IS WHERE IT IS TODAY.

WHAT IS THE CONNECTION?

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK.

THE ATTACK TO BLACK LIVES MATTER.

IT WAS REALLY THE CENTER OF THE CAMPAIGN.

SO IT'S REALLY, THE CONNECTION IS WHITE NATIONALISM.

XENOPHOBIA WAS AN ATTEMPT.

IT WAS ALL ABOUT, THE WORK HAS SHOWN, THE IMMIGRANTS ARE COMING TO REPLACE US SO WE HAVE TO PRE SERVE OUR WHITE MAJORITY.

JENNIFER RICHARDSON SHOWS THAT'S AN EXTREMELY POWERFUL WORK IN PSYCHOLOGY IN 2014.

SO IT BEGINS INTERNATIONAL.

AND WE SEE THE LITERATURE ON FASCISM.

RACISM BEGINS WITH COLONIAL I.

AND THEN THE STRUCTURE IN THE UNITED STATES, IT IS A STRUCTURE OF FOCUSING ON BLACK MINORITIES, AND THAT A POTENTIAL BLACK MINORITY CAN SOMEHOW GAIN SUPPOSEDLY ILL LEGITIMATE POWER.

SO BEHIND BOTH THESE IDEAS IS WHITE NATIONALISM.

AND THE COMMON THREAD RUNNING THROUGH BOTH ELECTIONS.

BOTH ELECTIONS MESSAGES HAS BEEN WHITE NATIONALISM.

IF YOU HAVE ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE WHITE, MALE, SEE THE DEMOGRAPHICS CHANGING, SEE POWER SLIPPING OUT OF THEIR HANDS.

AND THEN YOU HAVE ON THE LEFT, PERHAPS MARGINALIZED GROUPS WHO WANT A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

THEY WANT THE SAME SELF-DETERMINE PARTICIPATION THEY FEEL IS WRITTEN RIGHT THERE IN THE CONSTITUTION.

SO WHERE WE ARE AS A COUNTRY, AND WE'VE BEEN HERE FOR SOME TIME NOW.

AS EXCLUDED GROUPS ARE BECOMING MORE INCLUDED IN OUR SOCIETY, THE ECONOMY, THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, ET CETERA, THE GROUP THAT WAS ALREADY INCLUDED FEES THE EXPANSION LIKE A LOSS.

THAT IS, THE THINGS THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO ENJOY ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATION'S HISTORY, YOU TO SHARE WITH OTHERS.

THAT SHARING ISN'T LIKE YOU'VE EXPANDED DEMOCRACY.

IT IS LIKE THE DEMOCRACY IS BEING YANKED AWAY FROM YOU.

JOB OPPORTUNITIES, HOUSING OPPORTUNITIES, EDUCATION OPPORTUNITIES, TAX DOLLARS, ET CETERA, ARE BEING TAKEN FROM YOU BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING DISTRIBUTED ACROSS A MORE INCLUSIVE SOCIETY.

AND THERE IS A BACK LASH.

WE SAW THIS AFTER THE CIVIL WAR AND THE RECONSTRUCTION REDEMPTION JIM CROW PERIOD.

WHERE THE PROCESS RESULTED IN FRANKLY, IN THE ELECTION OF 1876.

THE KEYS TO THE WHITE HOUSE CHANGED ON A DEAL THAT TOOK AWAY FEDERAL PROTECTIONS FOR A NEWLY ENFRANCHISED BLACK MAN IN EXCHANGE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE ERROR OF JIM CROW THAT CAME AFTERWARD.

SO HERE.

WE'VE HAD A BLACK PRESIDENT FOR TWO TERMS AND NOW WE'VE HAD DONALD TRUMP FOR A TERM AND WE'LL SEE HOW THIS SHAKES OUT.

FOLKS ARE WONDERING, WHY ARE WE STILL HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION IN THE 60s, THE EARLY PART OF 20th CENTURY, CERTAINLY TLATER PART OF 19th CENTURY WHY.

ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION?

IT IS BECAUSE THE MORE DIVERSE OUR NATION BECOMES, THE MORE IT LOOKS UNLIKE WHAT IT USED TO LOOK LIKE CENTURIES AGO, OR DECADES AGO.

THAT CHANGE IS VERY HARD FOR THOSE THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY PRIVILEGED IN A PARTICULAR WAY TO ACCEPT.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS STAKED HIS ENTIRE POLITICAL CAREER ON STOKING THE FLAMES OF THAT DISRUPTED AMERICAN IDENTITY AND USING OBAMA'S BIRTH PLACE AS THE SPARK PLUG FOR IT ALL.

AND RODE IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND WE'LL SEE AGAIN HOW THIS SHAKES OUT.

IF WE DO NOT RECKON WITH THE RACIAL TENSIONS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE LOSSES FELT BY SOME WHITE AMERICANS, THE DAMAGE THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE NOT WHITE AND FRANKLY EVEN WOMEN IT'S A WELL.

THEN WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE CONFRONTING THIS ISSUE UNTIL WE ARE ABLE TO RECONCILE IT.

TED ALMOST DESCRIBES WHAT IS CALLED IDENTITY POLITICS.

IT'S BEEN A PHRASE THAT THE RIGHT HAS USED AS A SLEDGEHAMMER AGAINST PEOPLE.

BUT IT SEEMS IN A WAY, THE PRESIDENT IS BETTER AT PLAYING THIS THAN THE LEFT HAS BEEN.

8 CHAPTER IN MY BOOK CALLED VICTIM HOOD.

THE CORE, GRIEVANCE POLITICS WHICH THE RIGHT SAYS IS A CHARACTERISTIC OF THE LEFT.

IT IS THE DOMINANT CENTER OF WHITE NATIONALISM.

THIS KIND OF FASCIST POLITICS.

IN 1866, WHEN ANDREW JOHNSON VOTED AGAINST THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

EM, THIS ACT WILL ESTABLISH FOR BLACK AMERICANS.

THEY DIDN'T USE THAT WORD.

RIGHTS THAT NO ONE ELSE HAS NO, WHITES EVER HAVE.

IN OTHER WORDS PEOPLE JUST FREED FROM ENSLAVEMENT ARE THEN TOLD THEIR BID FOR EQUALITY IS A BID FOR SUPREMACY.

SO THAT IDEA, THAT SOCIAL JUSTICE MOVEMENT IS REALLY ABOUT POWER AND GRABBING POWER WHICH IS HOW THE PRESIDENT, HOW THE CHRISTIAN RACE THEORY IS REPRESENTED, WHICH IS HOW THE 1619 PROJECT IS REPRESENTED.

THAT IS THE CORE.

EVEN IN THE PROTOCOLS, THE NAZI CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT SAYS ALL THE MOVEMENTS FOR UNIVERSAL JUSTICE ARE REALLY METHODS TO SUPPLANT THE WHITE RACE.

TED, I WANT TO KNOW WHY WOULD PEOPLE WHO PERHAPS HAVE MORE TO LOSE, LESS TO GAIN FROM THE PRESIDENT'S POLICIES WHO WOULD BE TRADITIONALLY THE OUTGROUPS.

WHY WOULD THEY RUN TOWARD THE PRESIDENT?

IT IS PRETTY INTERESTING, LOOKING AT THE RESULTS, THE EARLY EXIT POLLS OF THE ELECTION.

IT DOES SUGGEST THAT TRUMP HAS DONE BETTER WITH BLACK VOTERS, EVEN ASIAN-AMERICAN VOTERS THAN 2016.

HE DIDN'T DO WELL IN 2016.

I THINK ALL WE'RE SEEING IS A REVERSION TO THE MEAN.

FROM 1964 TO 2004, REPUBLICAN NOMINEES RECEIVED ABOUT 11 OR SO PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE.

AND THEN YOU HAVE BARACK OBAMA WHO MAKES A BIG DENT FOR TWO STRAIGHT CYCLES AND THEN DONALD TRUMP WINS 8% OF THE BLACK VOTE IN 2016 AND IT LOOKS LIKE HE MAY WIN THAT NOW.

WHICH MEANS BEFORE OBAMA OBAMA WAS AROUND, THEY HAVE BASICALLY COME BACK HOME.

THESE ARE NOT DEMOCRATS THAT CHANGE THEIR MIND AND DECIDE TO SUPPORT TRUMP.

THEY HAVE NOT BOWEN ORDER BY POLICY APPEALS.

IT IS CONSERVATIVISM AND PARTY HEARINGS PRIOR TO BARACK OBAMA.

THEY'VE DECIDE THAT HAD THE FUTURE OF REPUBLICAN PARTY MIGHT LOOK EVEN WITH ITS CURRENT STANDARD BEARER, MAY BE MORE AKIN TO THEIR BELIEFS THAN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND IT IS STILL ONE IN TEN BLACK VOTERS.

WE'RE SEEING ABOUT TWO-THIRDS OF THE LATINO VOTERS GOING FOR JOE BIDEN CAN AND A THIRD FOR TRUMP AND THE SAME NUMBERS AMONG ASIAN-AMERICAN VOTERS.

SO NATIONALLY, THIS IS EXPECTED.

IN CERTAIN STATES, LATINO VOTERS MAY HAVE BEEN THE TURNING POINT BUST THIS IS A VERY COME AMERICA, AS JASON MENTIONED, DEMOGRAPHIC.

SO CASTING, PREDICTING THE OUTCOME IT LEADS TO THE KIND OF SURPRISE PEOPLE ARE WAKE UP TO TODAY.

I SAW SOMEWHERE A QUOTE THAT WAS TALKING ABOUT, INSTEAD OF A KOFRGT ABOUT RED AND BLOW, IT IS MORE OF A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHITENESS.

YEAH.

I MEAN AGAIN, THIS IS THE CONVERSATION THAT THE COUNTRY REQUIRES.

I THINK THAT RACISM, STRUCTURAL RACISM IN PARTICULAR, IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THE AMERICAN IDEA.

NOT TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES HAS SHOWN THAT IT CAN LIVE QUITE COMFORTABLY WITH RACISM COURSING THROUGH ITS VEINS.

THE IDEALS ARE THE ONLY ONES OF SPOKEN ABOUT IN OUR FOUNDING TEXT SUGGEST THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE AMERICAN IDEALS AND RACIAL HIERARCHY AND RACIAL INEQUALITY.

SO EVEN IF YOU ADDRESS ECONOMIC INEQUALITY.

EVEN IF YOU ADDRESS HYPER PARTISANSHIP AND LIBERAL POLICIES.

IF YOU DONNATAL STRUCTURAL RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES, IT WILL NEVER BECOME THAT MORE PERFECT UNION.

THAT WILL REQUIRE THAT WHITE AMERICANS UNDERSTAND THE ROLE OF THEIR RACE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, AMERICAN MYTHOLOGY, AND PRESENT DAY AMERICAN ISSUES.

AND ACCEPT THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN HAVE THE COUNTRY, THE ONLY WAY THIS COUNTRY CAN BE WHO IT PROFESSES TO BE FIRGTS BECOMES TRULY MULTIRACIAL, MULTIETHNIC, MULTICULTURAL.

AND PRESENT A CONCEPTION OF AMERICANISM THAT IS INCLUSIVE OF MORE PEOPLE THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN.

THAT'S THE PROJECT WE'RE UNDERTAKING.

HOW DOES THIS COUNTRY MOVE FORWARD WITH ANY OF THE SORT OF, WHAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE BIG ISSUES, BUT WITHOUT CONFRONTING THIS IDENTITY CRISIS THAT INCLUDES INEQUALITY AND RACISM BECAUSE IT PERMANENT YATES SO MUCH ELSE.

YOU CAN'T.

YOU HAVE TO CONFRONT IT.

YOU HAVE TO CONFRONT IT.

YOU HAVE THIS MASKING THING WHERE PEOPLE THINK IT'S OVER.

THIS CYCLE OF BLACK POLITICAL PROTEST PAINTED AS RIOTS THAT THEN BECOME BASIS OF A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

LAWLESS BLACK AMERICANS HE AND MARXIST RADICALS.

IT DATES BACK TO THE '60s.

WE'VE SEEN IT ALL BEFORE.

YOU'VE GOT THE PROTEST.

AND THAT BECOMES THE BASE I FOR A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

SO UNTIL YOU ELIMINATE THE GROUNDS FOR BLACK POLITICAL PROTEST WHICH IS STRUCTURAL, RACIST INEQUALITY AS WE SAW.

THIS WAS A QUESTION OF TEXAS STATE POLICE THAT MENTIONS HITLER REPEATEDLY.

YOU'LL CONTINUE TO GET THAT WHICH THEN A DEMAGOGUE CAN USE TO WIN AN ELECTION.

LOOK AT ALL THE ATTENTION MINORITIES ARE GETTING.

YOU NEED A STRONG LEADER.

AND TO GO BACK TO TED'S EARLIER POINT, WE'LL HEAR, OH, HE SLIGHTLY INCREASED THE BLACK MALE VOTE.

YEAH.

HE STILL WON A TINY PERCENTAGE OF A LARGE GROUP.

IT IS CLEARLY WHITE RACIAL POLITICS.

CLEARLY PEOPLE ARE VOTING FOR A VERY CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT AND PROGRESS ON IT.

TED JOHNSON FROM THE BRENNAN CENTER ARE.

ARE THANK YOU BOTH.

> AND FINALLY ON THAT NOTE, THIS ELECTION WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY FOR MANY REASONS INCLUDING WHAT IS EXPECTED TO BE THE HIGHEST TURNOUT IN MORE THAN A CENTURY.

AMERICANS ARE PROUDLY SHARING A WIDE VARIETY OF I VOTED STICKERS.

SOME ARE STATE SPECIFIC.

OTHERS ARE DESIGNED BY CHILDREN.

ONE THING BOTH CANDIDATES STEAM AGREE ON.

HIGH TURNOUT IS A GOOD THING.

CIVIC DUTY IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IS ALIVE AFTER ALL.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING HAD 'AMANPOUR & CO.'