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> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'
HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, AMERICA PROVIDES A LIVING LESSON IN DEMOCRACY TO THE WHOLE WORLD.
RECORD TURNOUT, COUNTING EVERY BALLOT, AND ALL POINTING TO A VERY DIVIDED NATION.
WE GET PERSPECTIVE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE WITH THE FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY, CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN, AND FORMER LOUISIANA SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU.
PLUS THE WHOLE WORLD IS GLUED TO THE COUNT TO AND I GET THE GLOBAL PULSE FROM LIONEL BARBER, FORMER EDITOR OF 'THE FINANCIAL TIMES.'
WE'RE PROTESTING THAT WE JUST WANT TO LIVE.
AFTER A LONG SEASON OF RECKONING, WHAT'S OUTLOOK FOR RACIAL JUSTICE?
OUR MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO RENOWNED CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY BEN CRUMP.
> 'AMANPOUR & CO.' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY ROSALIND P. WALTER, BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY -- THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
IN BARS, RESTAURANTS, AND PUBLIC PLACES AROUND THE WORLD WHERE COVID HASN'T SHUT THEM DROWN EYEBALLS ARE GLUED TO THEIR TVs.
IN EVERY CORNER OF THE GLOBE, WHILE THEY DON'T HAVE A VOTE, THEY BELIEVE THEY HAVE A STAKE IN THE U.S. ELECTION, ESPECIALLY THIS ONE.
AFTER FOUR YEARS OF THE DESTRUCTION AND UNPREDICTABILITY OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.
THE VOTE COUNT SIGNALS EVERYTHING THAT IS SOLID ABOUT U.S. DEMOCRACY, BUT MANY OVERSEAS ARE AGHAST AT DONALD TRUMP'S ATTACK ON THE PROCESS, TWEETING TO STOP COUNTING THE VOTE, FALSELY CLAIMING VICTORY AND BASELESSLY ACCUSING DEMOCRATS OF VOTER THEFT AND FRAUD, WHILE JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN STICKING TO THE SCRIPT.
EVERY VOTE MUST BE COUNTED.
NO ONE'S GOING TO TAKE OUR DEMOCRACY AWAY FROM US, NOT NOW, NOT EVER.
THE GOOD NEWS IS UNPRECEDENTED TURNOUT AND VOTER ENGAGEMENT IN THIS ELECTION.
THE BAD NEWS FOR ANY DEMOCRACY IS THIS ELECTION'S SIGNIFICANT TAKEAWAY, A DRAMATICALLY DISUNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
FORMER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN AND THE FORMER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA, MARY LANDRIEU, JOIN ME NOW.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I FIRST WANT TO ASK YOU THE GOOD THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED AND THAT HAVE BEEN ON DISPLAY FOR THE COUNTRY AND FOR THE WORLD.
THE VOTER TURNOUT, THE WAY THERE HAS NOT BEEN VIOLENCE AROUND THE COUNTING, THE WAY ALL THE STATES' ATTORNEYS GENERAL, ALL THE SECRETARIES OF STATE, THE ELECTED OFFICIALS, HAVE BEEN CONSTANTLY REASSURING AMERICANS AND THE WORLD THAT THIS IS ALL GOING FINE DESPITE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S QUESTIONING OF IT.
HOW DO YOU ASSESS, GOVERNOR TODD WHITMAN, THE INTEGRITY OF WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?
I THINK IT IS INTACT.
AND THESE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE MOSTLY VOLUNTEERS, WHO ARE THERE COUNTING, GOD BLESS THEM, THEY'VE BEEN UP 24/7, WORKING ON THIS.
THEY GET A STIPEND BUT IT'S NOT A LOT OF MONEY.
THEY'RE DOING IT BECAUSE THAT'S HOW DEMOCRACY WORKS.
AND THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IT CREDIBLY.
THERE ARE PROTECTIONS IN PLACE IN EVERY ONE OF THESE PLACES WHERE YOU DO HAVE BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS WHO ARE WATCHING.
YOU DO HAVE MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA WHO ARE IN MOST OF THESE SITES WHO ARE ALSO WATCHING, AS WELL AS LAW ENFORCEMENT.
SO IT'S SECURE, THE BALLOT SECURITY IS REAL.
THE PEOPLE ARE DOING WHAT THEY NEED TO DO.
AND EVERY VOTE WILL BE COUNTED.
THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING RIGHT NOW.
AS A DEMOCRAT, SENATOR LANDRIEU, ARE YOU ALSO ASSURED OF THE CREDIBILITY AND LEGITIMACY OF THE PROCESS UNDER WAY RIGHT NOW?
I AM VERY PLEASED SO FAR AND ENCOURAGED BY WHAT THE LOCAL ELECTED OFFICIALS OF BOTH PARTIES ARE DOING TO SECURE THIS ELECTION, THE TRANSPARENT WAY IN WHICH THEY'RE COUNTING VOTES.
IT REALLY IS A CREDIT TO OUR SYSTEM.
THERE WAS A POLL TAKEN THAT 96% OF AMERICANS FOUND IT FAIRLY EASY TO VOTE DESPITE ALL THE HARDSHIPS WITH COVID AND OTHERS.
5% SAID IT WAS DIFFICULT.
WE WOULD LIKE TO WORK ON THAT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, COUNTING THESE VOTES IS SO IMPORTANT.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE ONLY SHAMEFUL ASPECT OF THIS HAS BEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF AND PEOPLE LIKE THE FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK, RUDY GIULIANI, THAT JUST CONTINUES TO UNDERMINE THE VERY DEMOCRACY THAT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE FOUGHT FOR.
AND THE WORLD IS WATCHING.
SO, YOU KNOW, HATS OFF, LIKE THE GOVERNOR SAID, TO THE LOCAL OFFICIALS, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT, THAT HAVE STOOD SHOULDER TO SHOULDER TO COUNT THE VOTES AND CONTINUE TO COMMUNICATE TO THE PUBLIC, AND HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, WE CAN THEN HAVE FAITH IN THE OUTCOME.
I WANT TO PLAY A COUPLE OF SOUND BITES FROM NEVADA TO THIS VERY ISSUE, ABOUT THE SECURITY OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE ACTUALLY DOING THIS COUNTING.
LET ME JUST PLAY THIS.
MY WIFE AND MY MOTHER ARE VERY CONCERNED FOR ME.
BUT WE HAVE SECURITY HERE.
WE HAVE LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO ARE PROTECTING US.
I AM CONCERNED FOR THE SAFETY OF MY STAFF.
I FEEL SAFE.
WE'RE GOING TO BE OKAY.
WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO COUNT.
WE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO STOP US FROM DOING WHAT OUR DUTY IS IN COUNTING BALLOTS.
YOU KNOW, THAT PRETTY MUCH GOES TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE GOING TO BE SAYING, WHAT?
VIOLENCE IN AMERICA WHERE THEY'RE COUNTING THE ELECTIONS?
THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN AMERICA.
DO YOU THINK THERE'S A CREDIBLE THREAT OF VIOLENCE OR HAS THAT BEEN BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION?
OR ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHAT TRUMP HAS BEEN SAYING ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA TO HIS FANS?
GOVERNOR WHITMAN, IT'S YOUR PARTY.
WELL, I WORRY ABOUT WHAT HIS FANS TAKE FROM WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAYS.
I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT -- I THINK IT HAS BEEN OVERHYPED, THE IDEA THAT THERE IS THESE KIND OF DEMONSTRATIONS OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTING PLACES.
IN MARICOPA COUNTY, FOR SOME REASON, IT WAS A REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN WHO GOT EVERYBODY TOGETHER WHO GOT EVERYBODY TOGETHER TO GO DOWN THERE AND CHANT, COUNT THE VOTES.
THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE DOING, COUNTING THE VOTES, SO IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL.
ONE THING IS VERY CLEAR FROM THIS ELECTION.
JOE BIDEN HAS WON THE VOTES OVERALL, THE POPULAR VOTE IS HIS.
THERE'S NO WAY TRUMP IS GOING TO OVERCOME THAT.
IT'S ELECTORAL COLLEGE STUFF NOW THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
THAT'S WHAT MAKES THESE VARIOUS STATES SO IMPORTANT.
BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS A WHOLE OVERWHELMINGLY HAVE SAID NO TO DONALD TRUMP.
THEY'VE SAID THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF COUNTRY WE ARE.
SO SENATOR LANDRIEU, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN, THEN, IN THE MIDST OF THIS PANDEMIC, MORE THAN 230,000 AMERICAN DEAD, THE HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO SAID THAT THEY DID NOT APPROVE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HANDLING OF COVID, THE RACIAL INJUSTICE, ALL OF THIS STUFF, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS SO CLOSE, DESPITE WHAT IS THE POPULAR VOTE, BUT IT'S STILL QUITE CLOSE, OR VERY CLOSE, IN MANY OF THE STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY.
WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT I THINK JOE BIDEN DID A VERY GOOD JOB IN A VERY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE YOU COULD VIRTUALLY NOT EVEN CAMPAIGN, TO TRY TO PROMOTE A MESSAGE OF UNITY AND HEALING AND WORKING TOGETHER.
BUT I WILL SAY THAT -- THIS IS MY OWN VIEW, THAT THE ECONOMY OF THE UNITED STATES, ALTHOUGH IT MIGHT SEEM STRONG TO PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, IT IS LEAVING OUT MANY MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.
OUR ECONOMY, AND THEN WITH COVID, AND THE CLOSING, THERE IS AN ECONOMIC SUFFERING IN THE MIDDLE CLASS.
AND PEOPLE ARE NOT -- THEY'RE UPSET.
THEY'RE NOT HAPPY WITH THAT.
AND WE AS ELECTED OFFICIALS, ALL OF US, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB, IN MY VIEW, OF MAKING THIS DEMOCRATIC, CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM, WORK BETTER FOR EVERYONE.
THAT'S WHAT THE ANGER IS COMING FROM.
LET ME GO BACK TO WHAT YOU ASKED US.
THE ONLY REASON THERE'S TENSION AT SOME OF THESE COUNTING PLACES IS LITERALLY WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF IS TWEETING TO HIS SUPPORTERS.
I THINK THAT EVERYONE IS SECURE, I BELIEVE, I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT.
BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT SOME MOTHERS WHO HAVE DAUGHTERS OR SONS COUNTING VOTES MIGHT BE A LITTLE CONCERNED.
AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE.
THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF IS STIRRING THIS UP.
AND HIS FAMILY AND RUDY GIULIANI AND A FEW OTHERS, BUT THEY'RE THE MOST NOTABLE.
WE JUST HAVE TO BE PATIENT AND QUIET AND LET THE LOCAL ELECTED OFFICIALS, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, COUNT THESE VOTES AND DO IT IN A TRANSPARENT WAY, AND BE GRACIOUS ABOUT WHO WINS AND WHO LOSES AND MOVE ON.
I WANT TO ADD SOMETHING QUICKLY TO WHAT SHE SAID, SHE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON THE ECONOMY.
THAT'S SOMETHING ELSE, DONALD TRUMP KEPT HAMMERING AND HAMMERING AND SCARING PEOPLE THAT JOE BIDEN WAS GOING TO MAKE THE UNITED STATES A SOCIALIST COUNTRY.
FURTHEST THING FROM THE TRUTH.
BUT WHEN THE FELLOW WITH THE BULLHORN IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND HE KEEPS REPEATING LIES, IT PERMEATES.
AND THAT HAS HAD AN IMPACT ON PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN FLORIDA, WHERE YOU HAVE COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE ESCAPED SOCIALISM AND COMMUNISM AND HAVE COME TO THIS COUNTRY, IT SCARED THEM, IT WASN'T TRUE, BUT IT SCARED THEM.
IT'S INTERESTING, NOT ALL THE NUMBERS ARE IN, NOT ALL THE STUDYING OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS AND THE EXIT POLLS HAS BEEN DONE BUT IT APPEARS PRESIDENT TRUMP DID VERY WELL WITH THE LATINX COMMUNITY.
AND IT IS NOT A MONOLITH, AND IT APPEARS QUITE WELL HE DID QUITE WELL WITH AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES.
IT ALSO APPEARS THAT HE DID WELL WITH WHITE WOMEN.
HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT, AFTER ALL THAT'S GONE FORWARD, AND ALSO AFTER SO MANY STRATEGISTS SAID WOMEN WERE HEMORRHAGING THEIR SUPPORT OF HIM, AND THE SHOOTING OF THESE UNARMED BLACK MEN AND WOMEN WHICH HAVE CAUSED PROTESTS ON THE STREETS IN YOUR COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR HIM STILL DOING NOT BADLY WITH THOSE GROUPS?
LET ME JUMP IN HERE AND JUST SAY, UNTIL ALL THE NUMBERS COME IN, WE HAVE TO UNPACK A LOT OF THAT.
IT'S JUST REALLY HARD TO COMMENT ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT GROUPS DID WHAT OVER OTHERS.
THE UNDERLYING ANXIETY ABOUT THE ECONOMIC STRENGTH OF THE MIDDLE CLASS IS AN ISSUE THAT BOTH PARTIES HAVE TO FOCUS MORE ON AND DO A BETTER JOB OF.
BUT I CAN SAY I'M VERY PROUD WHAT HAVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS DONE TO TRY TO BRIDGE RACIAL DIVIDES.
AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY USED TO ACTUALLY BE LEADING IN THIS EFFORT.
AND BECAUSE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY HAVE TAKEN A BACK SEAT.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS LINCOLN'S PARTY.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- THE REPUBLICANS WERE VERY PROGRESSIVE, AT LEAST IN THE SOUTH, WHERE I'M FROM, YOU KNOW, ON THESE ISSUES.
AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE A FLIP.
SO WE'VE JUST GOT TO CONTINUE TO HEAL, BRIDGE RACIAL DIVIDES, FOCUS ON THE ECONOMIC SECURITY OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, AND TRY TO MOVE THIS COUNTRY FORWARD.
BUT RIGHT NOW, THIS ISSUE IS ABOUT COUNTING THE VOTES, WATCHING DEMOCRACY, AND SUPPOSEDLY AT ITS BEST.
AND IT'S SHAMEFUL WHAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS DOING TO UNDERMINE NOT JUST OUR COUNTRY BUT DEMOCRACIES ALL OVER THE WORLD.
AND, YOU KNOW, MAKE A MOCKERY OF THE MOST REALLY SACRED, ALMOST, PROCESS OF THE INTEGRITY OF THE VOTE.
IT'S BEYOND DESCRIPTION.
BUT THAT'S WHAT HE'S DOING, AND I JUST HOPE THAT THE REST OF THE ELECTED OFFICIALS JOIN TOGETHER AND OUR COUNTRY IS STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND IT.
I GUESS, CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN, IT GOES TO YOUR PARTY.
YOU'VE WRITTEN, YOU WROTE THAT TRUMP HAS TO BE DEFEATED AND DEFEATED BIG SO THAT TRUMPISM IS DEFEATED.
AS YOU DESCRIBE, SO THE PARTY IS NOT HANDED OVER TO WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS EXTREMISTS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE, WHATEVER THE RESULTS, EVEN IF BIDEN WINS, TRUMPISM HAS NOT BEEN DEFEATED.
AND TRUMP IS ALLOWED TO SIT IN THE WHITE HOUSE WITH ALL HIS OFFICIALS AND MAKE THESE TWEETS WHICH HAVE SHOCKED THE WORLD, NOT TO MENTION, OBVIOUSLY, THE UNITED STATES.
WHAT IS THE HOPE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AFTER THIS, SHOULD TRUMP LOSE, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE WINS?
WELL, IF HE WINS -- FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY, RIGHT NOW THERE IS NOT A REPUBLICAN PARTY.
THERE IS A PARTY OF TRUMP.
WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO ADOPT A PLATFORM AT THIS YEAR'S CONVENTION, THEY BASICALLY SAID, WHATEVER DONALD TRUMP SAYS, WE BELIEVE, THAT'S WHAT WE BELIEVE.
THAT'S NOT THE DEFINITION OF A VIABLE PARTY, A VIABLE SECOND PARTY IN OUR COUNTRY.
SO LET'S PUT THAT ASIDE.
LET'S UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE COMING FROM, BECAUSE THIS MAN, HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE CONSTITUTION.
IT'S AN INCONVENIENT DOCUMENT, IT GETS IN HIS WAY FROM TIME TO TIME, HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE RULE OF LAW.
HE'S SO OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF NORMAL BEHAVIOR IN A PRESIDENT THAT WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE POPULAR VOTE AND SAY, HE'S LOSING THAT OVERWHELMINGLY, AND THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE, THEY'RE SPLITTING THEIR TICKETS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO SEE A SPLIT GOVERNMENT, THEY'RE NOT 100% COMFORTABLE THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO TOO FAR TO THE LEFT WITH A JOE BIDEN, PARTICULARLY IF HE WON THE SENATE, WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH ALL THESE THINGS, BUT TRUMP'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY.
WHAT HE DOES, I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO BE IN A WORLD OF HURT LEGALLY WHEN HE LEAVES OFFICE, BECAUSE WHILE HE CAN PARDON HIMSELF FOR FEDERAL CRIMES, HE CANNOT DO THAT WITH THE STATE OF NEW YORK, WHICH IS AFTER HIM BIG TIME ON A LOT OF TAX ISSUES AND OTHER ISSUES.
SO HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT.
BUT THE FEAR IS THAT HE'S GOING TO SET UP HIS OWN NETWORK AND KEEP SPEWING THIS STUFF.
BUT I FIRMLY BELIEVE, AND I KNOW, THERE ARE A GROUP OF US, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF FORMER REPUBLICANS OR REPUBLICANS WHO ARE NOT OF THE TRUMP ILK BUT WHO ARE TRUE REPUBLICANS, WHO ARE GOING TO BE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO GET THE PARTY BACK TO THE CENTER SO IT'S A VIABLE CENTER-RIGHT PARTY THAT CAN COMPETE.
SENATOR LANDRIEU, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE THE ECONOMIC PAIN AND HOW DEMOCRATS NEED TO FULLY INTERNALIZE THAT FOR PEOPLE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND NOT JUST BE, YOU KNOW, LEADERS FOR A PARTICULAR GROUP.
IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT JUST DIVIDED BUT IT'S RURAL VERSUS URBAN, RIGHT, URBAN AND SUBURBAN, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY RURAL THAT SEEMS TO BE GOING FOR TRUMP AND THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HE HAS MADE HIMSELF A HERO TO.
WE'VE HEARD THAT, YOU KNOW, HIS PEOPLE WOULD WALK OVER CUT GLASS FOR HIM, THEY TREAT HIM AS, YOU KNOW, THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD, AND THEY REALLY MEAN IT.
I MEAN, THEY'RE REALLY FAITHFUL.
SO WHAT HAPPENS IN AMERICA, THIS MASSIVE COUNTRY WITH SUCH A HUGE DIVIDE BETWEEN RURAL AND THE REST, HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, ACCOMMODATE ALL THE DIFFERENT GROUPS?
WELL, YOU DO IT IN THE WAY THAT JOE BIDEN HAS SHOWN US IN THIS ELECTION.
AND I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THAT.
JOE BIDEN FLIPPED, WE THINK HE WILL FLIP, THREE MIDWESTERN STATES.
HE'S MAYBE FLIPPED FOUR OR FIVE STATES TO WIN.
AS THE GOVERNOR SAID, HE'S LEADING BY SEVERAL MILLION VOTES.
AND SO JOE BIDEN HAS SHOWN US THE WAY.
HE HAS, YOU KNOW, CALLED THE COUNTRY TO HEEL.
HE COMES FROM, YOU KNOW, PENNSYLVANIA.
HIS FAMILY IS FROM A VERY MIDDLE CLASS BACKGROUND.
HE TALKS ABOUT WORKING TO STRENGTHEN INNER CITIES AND SUBURBS AND RURAL AREAS.
WE JUST HAVE TO KEEP PUTTING ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER.
THERE IS NO MAGIC WAND HERE.
THERE'S A LOT OF PAIN IN THIS COUNTRY, A LOT OF ANGER, A LOT OF RACIAL DIVISION.
AMERICA HOLDS ITSELF OUT TO BE SORT OF A RACIAL -- YOU KNOW, RACIALLY HEALED PLACE.
WE HAVE TREMENDOUS IMPER IMPERFECTION IN THAT.
JOE BIDEN IS SHOWING US THE WAY, WE HAVE TO KEEP PUTTING ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER.
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS A BIG TENT, WE'LL KEEP BUILDING A WIDER, MORE INCLUSIVE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
NOW FOR THE SERIOUS MEAT AND POTATOES OF DOING THE BUSINESS OF THE COUNTRY, LEGISLATION, MANY PEOPLE, AND YOU JUST SAID IT, GOVERNOR TODD WHITMAN, IT DIDN'T GO THE DEMOCRATS' WAY CERTAINLY IN THE SENATE, AT LEAST WE DON'T THINK SO.
JOE BIDEN HAS RELATIONSHIPS WITH MITCH McCONNELL AND OTHERS, BUT DO YOU FORESEE A MITCH McCONNELL OR, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICAN LEADERS WHO SAY THE SAME THING TO BIDEN AS THEY DID ABOUT OBAMA, WE'RE GOING TO MAKE HIM A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT, THAT'S OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY?
IS THAT WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS GOING TO DO IF THERE'S A BIDEN PRESIDENT?
THERE'S CERTAINLY SOME OF THEM, UNFORTUNATELY, WHO WILL.
IF WE LOOK AT SOME WHO WERE ELECTED TO CONGRESS, BELIEVERS IN QANON.
JOE BIDEN HAS SHOWN AN ABILITY TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO GET THINGS DONE.
HE DOES HAVE A RELATIONSHIP, PARTICULARLY IN THE SENATE, HE LOVES THE INSTITUTION, HE HAS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MITCH McCONNELL.
NOW, HOW GOOD IT IS, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT I DO BELIEVE WE'LL START WITH -- FIRST OF ALL, I'M WILLING TO BET ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS HE DOES, JOE BIDEN, AS PRESIDENT, WILL BRING THE LEADERSHIP TOGETHER, IN A BIPARTISAN WAY WHICH TRUMP DOES NOT DO, BRING THEM TOGETHER AND SAY, OKAY, THESE ARE THE PROBLEMS WHICH WE'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH, FIRST AND FOREMOST WILL BE GETTING CONTROL OF THE CORONAVIRUS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BRING THE ECONOMY BACK WHILE YOU STILL HAVE TO SHUT THINGS DOWN AND OPEN UP AND SHUT DOWN.
PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR LIVELIHOODS, THEIR JOBS.
THEY'RE NEVER GOING TO GET BACK SOME OF THESE.
AND SO HE'S GOING TO GO AT THAT FIRST.
YOU'VE ALREADY SEEN McCONNELL HAS SAID HE WANTS TO GET SOME KIND OF A RELIEF PACKAGE THROUGH, FINALLY.
THERE'S GROUND THERE TO START THAT BUILDING.
AND IT CAN MOVE ON FROM THERE.
AND THERE ALSO HAS BEEN AN INCREASE, WHICH HAS BEEN NICE, AND THE PROBLEM SOLVERS CAUCUS IN THE CONGRESS, FOR THE FIRST TIME THERE'S REAL PROBLEM SOLVERS CAUCUS IN THE SENATE.
THESE ARE MEMBERS, IT'S AN EVEN NUMBER, REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, IN EACH OF THE HOUSES, THAT AGREE THAT WHEN TWO-THIRDS OF THEM TAKE A POSITION ON AN ISSUE, THAT THEY'LL VOTE AS A BLOC.
AND THAT WILL BECOME A VERY INFLUENTIAL GROUP, PARTICULARLY IF THE SENATE GETS CLOSER, IF REPUBLICANS KEEP CONTROL BUT THE SENATE GETS CLOSER, THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A REAL IMPACT.
THEY UNDERSTAND, PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE MESSAGE.
THE PUBLIC IS FED UP WITH NOT GETTING THE ISSUES ABOUT WHICH THEY'RE CONCERNED ADDRESSED.
OKAY.
SO SENATOR LANDRIEU, YOU'VE BEEN IN THE SENATE.
DO YOU HAVE SIMILARLY SANGUINE HOPES FOR SOME KIND OF RATIONAL BEHAVIOR FOR THE PEOPLE?
I HAVE SOME HOPE.
BUT I'M GOING TO WANT TO SEE SOME EVIDENCE, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN REALLY, REALLY TOUGH.
THE POLLS HAD DEMOCRATS WINNING A LITTLE BIT MORE IN THE SENATE.
BUT IT WAS A TOUGH LANDSCAPE FOR US.
WE WERE FIGHTING IN RACES, ALABAMA, MONTANA, WESTERN STATES, THAT WERE TOUGH FOR DEMOCRATS.
SO IN TWO YEARS, DEMOCRATS WILL HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF AN ADVANTAGE IN OUR RACES IN THE SENATE.
BUT GETTING BACK TO WHAT THE GOVERNOR SAID, THIS WILL BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IF THEY WILL TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY, TO TURN AWAY FROM TRUMP AND TOWARDS THEMSELVES, THEIR ROOTS.
YOU KNOW, THE GOOD THINGS ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND NOT THIS HATE AND ANGER THAT TRUMP JUST SPEWS CONSTANTLY AND BULLYING.
AND IF THE REPUBLICANS COULD TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY WITH JOE BIDEN AS PRESIDENT TO RESHAPE THEMSELVES.
I MEAN, YES, WORKING WITH DEMOCRATS IS IMPORTANT, BUT GETTING THEIR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER IS VERY IMPORTANT AND AN OPPORTUNITY.
WHETHER THEY'LL TAKE IT OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW.
SENATOR LANDRIEU, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
GOVERNOR TODD WHITMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.
> NOW TO LESSONS LEARNED OVERSEAS.
WHY IS THE WORLD VIEW SO IMPORTANT?
WHEN AMERICA'S REPUTATION AND ITS CREDIBILITY ARE SOLD OVERSEAS IT MAKES THE BUSINESS OF BEING AMERICA IN THE WORLD SAFER, MORE EFFECTIVE, MORE INFLUENTIAL.
RIGHT NOW, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE DUE TO TRUMP'S LOW RATINGS OVERSEAS.
AS THE WORLD'S OLDEST CONTINUOUS DEMOCRACY, THE UNITED STATES HOLDS ITSELF UP AS THE GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD.
AND FREQUENTLY HOLDS OTHER COUNTRIES ACCOUNTABLE FOR UNDERMINING THEIR ELECTIONS.
MY NEXT GUEST TONIGHT IS THE FORMER 'FINANCIAL TIMES' EDITOR LIONEL BARBER.
HE'S HAD HIS FINGER ON THE GLOBAL PULLING US FOR YEARS AND IS OUT TODAY WITH A NEW BOOK, 'THE POWERFUL AND THE DAMNED.'
HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM LONDON.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, LIONEL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WORLD IS GETTING TO UNDERSTAND AND SEE FROM AMERICA TODAY?
ON THE ONE HAND YOU HAVE GREAT TURNOUT, YOU'VE GOT THE VOTES BEING COUNTED.
ON THE OTHER HAND YOU HAVE TRUMP'S INTERVENTION.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE TAKEAWAY IS?
WELL, LET'S START WITH THE POSITIVE NEWS, CHRISTIANNE.
GREAT TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.
A RECORD NUMBER OF AMERICANS VOTED, LARGEST NUMBERS IN A CENTURY.
SO FAR THE POLLS HAVE BEEN CONDUCTED WITHOUT VIOLENCE, WITHOUT OBVIOUS INTIMIDATION.
AND YOU'VE GOT A DIVIDED GOVERNMENT RESULT.
YOU'VE GOT A DIVIDED CONGRESS.
WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE SENATE.
THE DEMS HAVE NOT DONE AS WELL -- THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT DONE AS WELL AS EXPECTED.
IF THEY TAKE THE PRESIDENCY, THEN YOU HAVE A DIVIDED GOVERNMENT WHICH REFLECTS THE STATE OF THE NATION.
THE WORRYING THING IS THE WAY IN WHICH THE INCUMBENT PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP, HAS ATTACKED THE INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION PROCESS, AND BASICALLY INTERVENED BEFORE THE VOTES ARE COUNTED AND HAS TALKED ABOUT LAUNCHING LAWSUITS.
I DON'T THINK THAT DOES CREDIT TO HIM OR TO THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC.
LET'S DIP DOWN INTO WHY.
LOOK, THIS IS INCREDIBLE, HE TWEETS 'STOP THE ACCOUNT.'
AND THE FORMER ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER TWEETS, IT'S CALLED A DEMOCRACY.
IT'S OBVIOUS WHY AMERICA SHOULD RESPECT DEMOCRACY BUT WHY SHOULD IT MATTER SO MUCH TO EUROPEANS AND THE REST OF THE WORLD?
WHY SHOULD AMERICA WORRY ABOUT WHY IT MATTERS OVERSEAS?
IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY, IF YOU LOOK AT 20th CENTURY HISTORY, AMERICA WAS BY AND LARGE, ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY, ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY.
IT WAS A MODEL FOR OTHERS.
A DEMOCRATIC MODEL AND ALSO ONE WHICH PRACTICED AND PURSUED UNIVERSAL VALUES.
LIBERTY, FREE SPEECH.
AND I THINK WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IS THAT POSITION ERODE IN THE 21st CENTURY, PARTICULARLY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO HAS AFTER ALL ATTACKED THE ALLIANCES ON WHICH WHAT WE KNOW AS THE WEST IS FOUNDED.
THAT WOULD BE THE EU, HE'S ATTACKED GERMANY, THE MOST IMPORTANT COUNTRY IN EUROPE, AND THE NATO ALLIANCE.
AND THAT'S REALLY UNPRECEDENTED.
DO YOU THINK FROM ALL THE PEOPLE YOU'VE TALKED TO, YOUR REPORTING, AND THE BOOK WE'LL TALK ABOUT, AND THE INTERVIEWS YOU'VE DONE WITH WORLD LEADERS, DO YOU THINK THEY BY AND LARGE MOSTLY HOPE TO SEE THE BACK OF THIS DISRUPTER?
NOT ALL LEADERS.
NOT ALL?
NO.
IF YOU LOOK IN SAUDI ARABIA, FOR EXAMPLE, THE YOUNG MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, HE WON'T WANT TO SEE THE BACK OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
AND I WONDER ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL.
MR. NETANYAHU, HE'S BEEN A LONGSTANDING SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
MR. BOLSONARO IN BRAZIL, HE WON'T WANT TO SEE THE BACK OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
AND IN A FUNNY WAY, MAYBE EVEN CHINA WOULDN'T WANT TO SEE THE BACK OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ATTACKED ON HUMAN RIGHTS VALUES.
AND I THINK MR. PUTIN, WHO WE'LL COME TO, I'M SURE WOULD PREFER TO DEAL WITH A TRANSACTIONAL PRESIDENT LIKE DONALD TRUMP, WHO BASICALLY WON'T SAY A WORD OF CRITICISM ABOUT PRESIDENT PUTIN IN PUBLIC.
AND MAYBE NOT EVEN IN PRIVATE.
SO LET'S GET TO SOME OF THIS.
YOU'VE INTERVIEWED PRESIDENT TRUMP BEFORE, WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT YOU INTERVIEWED HIM.
WHAT SORT OF IMPRESSION DID YOU TAKE AWAY?
MR. TRUMP IS A PHYSICALLY INTIMIDATING INDIVIDUAL.
I'VE DESCRIBED HIM AT ONE POINT AS TONY SOPRANO ON THE POTOMAC.
I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT THE MANNER.
IT'S VERY IN YOUR FACE.
AND HE CAN BE SORT OF MILDLY CHARMING.
BUT HIS MAIN -- HIS MAIN THRUST IS TO BE BIG, SWAGGERING, AND A BIT OF A BULLY, FRANKLY, WITH A GIGANTIC EGO.
AND I CAN UNDERSTAND SOME OF HIS APPEAL.
IN PRIVATE, YOU CAN SEE WHY IT TRANSLATES.
AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY IN THIS ELECTION.
YOU KNOW, HE'S WON A LOT OF VOTES.
AND HE APPEALS TO A LOT OF AMERICANS WITH HIS AMERICA FIRST RHETORIC.
HE'S A BRILLIANT COMMUNICATOR IN SIMPLE PHRASES.
BUT HE'S NOT A THINKER, HE'S NOT DEEP AT ALL.
NOT REFLECTIVE.
YOU'VE WRITTEN, OF COURSE, THIS IS IN YOUR NEW BOOK, THAT YOU HAD A RESPECTFUL CONVERSATION, IT WASN'T FULL OF FAKE NEWS AND BLASTING THE MEDIA THAT HE DOES OFTEN IN PUBLIC AND ON HIS TWEETS.
BUT I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU THINK IS THE REASON THAT HIS BASE AND RURAL AMERICANS AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE THEMSELVES AND ARE IN PAIN ECONOMICALLY, FEEL THEMSELVES TO BE IGNORED POTENTIALLY BY THE CITIES AND BY THE DEMOCRATS, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE REALITY?
BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, THEY LOVE THAT HE TORE UP NAFTA, RIGHT?
BUT THE NEXT DEAL IS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU KNOW, HE DOESN'T SUPPORT WORKERS IN TERMS OF UNIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
HE'S CUT TAXES, SURE, BUT MOSTLY FOR CORPORATIONS AND RICH PEOPLE.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HIS CHINA TRADE WAR HAS HELPED FARMERS OR HAS IT HURT THEM.
WHAT IS HE ACTUALLY DOING FOR THESE PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO THINK HE'S THEIR SAVIOR AND WHO -- I KEEP QUOTING THIS BECAUSE IT'S A TRUMP OFFICIAL WHO SAID THIS, WHO WOULD WALK OVER CUT GLASS FOR HIM, WHO THINK HE'S AN INTERVIEW?
IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY IN OUR INTERVIEW HE WAS CHARMING AND RESTRAINED BECAUSE HE WANTED TO PORTRAY THE IMAGE OF A STATESMAN.
IT WAS A FEW DAYS BEFORE HIS FIRST MEETING IN FLORIDA WITH PRESIDENT XI.
I THINK THAT MR. TRUMP'S APPEAL IS QUITE BASIC.
HE PUTS THE ECONOMY FIRST.
AND THE ECONOMY, THE AMERICAN ECONOMY SINCE 2017 HAS DONE QUITE WELL.
IT'S ONLY SINCE COVID STOPPED EVERYTHING.
BUT THE MARKET WENT UP, AND IN GENERAL, THAT MESSAGE OF, I'M GOING TO PUT AMERICAN INTERESTS FIRST, I'M GOING TO DEFEND AMERICA, I CARE ABOUT THE ECONOMY, HAS PROVED VERY POWERFUL.
AND IT CERTAINLY APPEALED IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA.
I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISPANIC VOTE, IT WAS VERY IMPRESSIVE, NOT JUST CUBAN AMERICANS.
AND I THINK THE SECOND POINT IS, YOU KNOW, AMERICA MAY -- LIVING STANDARDS, MIDDLE CLASS MAY HAVE BEEN SQUEEZED, AND THE INEQUALITY GAP MAY HAVE INCREASED, INCLUDING UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT HIS MESSAGE IS, WE CAN'T HAVE SOCIALISM, THAT REALLY CARRIES IN IMPORTANT STATES IN AMERICA.
YOU KNOW, I'M STILL NOT CONVINCED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FOR THE REALLY ECONOMICALLY POOR, AND IT'S NOT JUST WHITES, OF COURSE, IT'S BLACKS AND MINORITIES AS WELL.
AND I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU REFLECT NOW ON THIS RISE OF POPULISM.
LET'S NOT FORGET PRESIDENT TRUMP INHERITED A VERY STRONG ECONOMY WITH VERY HIGH EMPLOYMENT.
THE STOCK MARKET DOES NOT HELP THE POOR PEOPLE.
IT HELPS THE RICH PEOPLE.
AND I'M STILL -- I STILL FIND IT REALLY FASCINATING THAT HE HAS THIS HOLD ON HALF THE COUNTRY, AS WE CAN SEE RIGHT NOW, STILL, IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC.
AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT IT IN THE 'FT,' A BUSINESS PAPER, WHETHER HIS POPULIST POLITICS, WHETHER IT BROUGHT US BREXIT OR BOLSONARO OR TRUMP OR ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ARE ACTUALLY MEETING THE ECONOMIC NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE WHO MOST DESPERATELY NEED IT.
WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON BREXIT AND WHERE IT WILL END UP FOR THE PEOPLE, ON ECONOMIC NEEDS?
I STILL WANT TO HAVE A BITE ON THE AMERICAN SANDWICH, PLEASE.
THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, WHAT IS HIS APPEAL, I THINK IT'S SUMMED UP IN ONE WORD IN AMERICA AND IT'S CALLED ASPIRATION.
PEOPLE BELIEVE THEY HAVE A CHANCE OF IMPROVING THEIR STANDARDS, MAKING SOME MONEY, AND MR. TRUMP, EVEN THOUGH HE'S BEEN A MULTIPLE -- HIS CORPORATION, A MULTIPLE BANKRUPT, HE EPITOMIZES THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF HIS APPEAL.
IT'S THE SELF-MADE MAN.
NOW, IN BREXIT, THAT'S ANOTHER MATTER, BECAUSE THAT CERTAINLY IS ABOUT POPULISM.
IT'S ABOUT ANTI-IMMIGRATION.
AND IT'S CERTAINLY GOING TO BE SOMETHING WHICH WILL BE VERY, VERY CHALLENGING FOR THE BRITISH ECONOMY, THE CONSEQUENCES OF ESSENTIALLY SEVERING A PRIVILEGED TRADING RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBORS IN EUROPE.
AND I THINK THOSE CONSEQUENCES HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY MISRESPECTED BY BORIS JOHNSON, WHO BY THE WAY IS CERTAINLY SPLIT IN HIS VIEW ON WHETHER TO GO AGAINST EUROPE OR STAY IN.
BUT THIS IS GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLENGE.
IT IS, AS I SAY IN THE BOOK, IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE A COLD SHOWER FOR THE COUNTRY.
AND AGAIN, THAT WILL, YOU KNOW, COMPOUND THE TERRIBLE ECONOMIC SITUATION BECAUSE OF COVID.
ASPIRATIONAL, YOU'RE A JOURNALIST, YOU MUST HAVE LOVED THE 'NEW YORK TIMES' REPORT ON THE TAX RECORDS WHICH SHOW THAT MAYBE HE WASN'T SUCH A GREAT BUSINESSMAN AND HE'S IN HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DEBT, APPARENTLY, AND HAVING PAID VERY LITTLE TAXES.
BUT TALK TO ME ABOUT CHINA, BECAUSE CHINA WAS A BIG PART OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN RHETORIC, WHETHER IT WAS THE CHINA VIRUS THAT HE KEPT TALKING ABOUT, WHETHER IT'S BEING TOUGH ON CHINA FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND FOR HIS BASE.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR INTERVIEWS WITH THE PRIME MINISTER THERE AND THE OTHER TOP OFFICIALS ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH AMERICA AND WHERE THAT'S ALL HEADED?
I THINK THAT SOMETHING FUNDAMENTAL CHANGED IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AMERICA AND CHINA, SOMETIME AFTER THE FIRST YEAR OF MR. TRUMP BEING IN OFFICE.
I THINK YOU HAD SORT OF COMPETITION TURN INTO CONFLICT AND RIVALRY ACROSS THE BOARD.
THIS IS THE IMPORTANT THING.
IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT TARIFFS AND TRADE.
THIS WAS ABOUT THEFT OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
IT WAS ABOUT CHINA'S RISING MILITARY MIGHT, ITS CONDUCT IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA.
I THINK IT WAS ABOUT ESPIONAGE AND INFILTRATION IN AMERICA.
AND I THINK THE CHINESE WERE SHAKEN BECAUSE THEY ESSENTIALLY THOUGHT, THE CHINESE LEADERSHIP, THAT THEY COULD BASICALLY FLATTER MR. TRUMP.
AND MR. TRUMP TURNED THE TABLES.
AND I THINK THIS HAS A DISCOMBOBULATING EFFECT ON THE CHINESE LEADERSHIP.
AND THEY'RE RECALIBRATING NOW.
SO WE'RE NOT IN A NEW COLD WAR BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE PROXY WARS, WE DON'T HAVE CONFLICTS LIKE WE HAD BETWEEN THE U.S. AND THE SOVIET UNION, WHICH YOU AND I FOLLOWED.
BUT WE HAVE A WHOLE RANGE OF ISSUES ACROSS THE BOARD WHERE THE U.S. AND AMERICA ARE IN COMPETITION.
AND COUNTRIES LIKE BRITAIN, GERMANY, FRANCE, SERBIA, THE BALL BALKANS, ARE HAVING TO MAKE CHOICES BETWEEN AMERICA AND CHINA.
AND THAT'S BEFORE YOU GET TO TECHNOLOGY RIVALRY AND SUPREMACY WHICH WE'VE ALSO SEEN.
YOUR BOOK, YOUR OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE LEADERS YOU'VE MET, JUST TO REPEAT, YOU CALLED DONALD TRUMP, WHO YOU MET IN 2017, TONY SOPRANO WITHOUT THE CHARM.
YOU TALK ABOUT GETTING THE PRESIDENT OF IRAN, HASSAN ROUHANI, ON YOUR SIDE BY PRETENDING TO DO A SCOTTISH ACCENT?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN, PRETENDED?
IT WAS A REAL SCOTTISH ACCENT.
YOU SAID ABOUT PUTIN, IT WAS THRILLING MEETING HIM, THE MOST COLD-BLOODED PERSON WHO IS EXPERT IN DESTABILIZING PEOPLE.
HOW DID HE DESTABILIZE YOU?
WELL, HE JUST LOOKS STRAIGHT THROUGH YOU.
HE HAS THESE SLIGHTLY WATERY EYES AND HE'S CONSTANTLY ASSESSING WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
HE'S LIKE A JUDO PLAYER.
I DECIDED, AND I TOOK SOME ADVICE ON THIS FROM AMERICAN OFFICIALS WHO SPENT TIME WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN, THEY SAID, JUST SHOW HIM SOME RESPECT, BECAUSE IF YOU ATTACK HIM STRAIGHT AWAY, HE WILL JUST ATTACK YOU AND YOU WON'T GET ANYTHING.
SO I DECIDED TO TAKE A MORE CONSIDERED APPROACH.
HE EVEN REFERRED TO ME AS A HISTORIAN.
SO THERE WAS A LITTLE FEELING EACH OTHER OUT, A LITTLE BIT OF MILD FLATTERY, BEFORE THEN THE HARDER QUESTIONS ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT OF FORMER GRU DOUBLE AGE SERGEI SKRIPAL IN ENGLAND, AN APPALLING ACT, ALSO MR. PUTIN GOT REALLY QUITE CROSS WITH ME WHEN I WAS ASKING ABOUT RUSSIAN ACTIVITY IN VENEZUELA.
THIS WAS A VERY CAGEY INTERVIEW BUT ULTIMATELY WE TEASED OUT A FANTASTIC STORY AND GOT HIM TO TALK ABOUT THE END OF THE LIBERAL IDEA, YOU KNOW, AND WE WERE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY AND RUSSIA WILL BE TRIUMPHANT.
I'M REALLY INTERESTED BY WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT FLATTERING, BECAUSE PUTIN CLEARLY, AND TRUMP, THEY ARE THE -- THEY EMBODY THE IDEA OF GRIEVANCE POLICIES AND GRIEVANCE POLITICS.
THEY FEEL THAT THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED.
PUTIN THINKS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE END OF THE SOVIET UNION WAS THE WORST DISASTER OF THE 20th CENTURY.
HE FEELS UNDER ATTACK BY THE WEST.
HE'S ALWAYS TRYING TO GET INTO THE CLUB.
AND IT SEEMS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE SAME.
DID YOU FEEL YOU HAD TO FLATTER TRUMP A LITTLE BIT TO, YOU KNOW, GET AROUND --
YEAH, NO, I THINK JUST SHOWING SOME RESPECT.
AS I WRITE IN THE BOOK, THE FACT IS, YOU'RE SITTING OPPOSITE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE OVAL OFFICE.
AND I REMEMBER HIM SAYING, HAVE YOU BEEN HERE BEFORE?
LIKE IT WAS SOME HOTEL SUITE.
AND I SAID YES, I HAD.
AND HE WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED.
BUT SHOWING A LITTLE BIT OF RESPECT, I THINK IS NOT A BAD THING.
IF YOU GO OVER-AGGRESSIVE -- LOOK, I'M TALKING TO ONE OF THE GREAT BROADCASTER INTERVIEWERS -- OH, DEAR, I'M FLATTERING YOU.
I'M SO AGGRESSIVE, YEAH.
AS LONG AS IT'S NOT CRAVEN.
AS LONG AS YOU WRITE IT UP AFTERWARDS.
THE IDEA IS TO ENTICE PEOPLE TO TELL YOU THINGS THAT THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TO.
AND IF YOU GET THAT, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO REVEAL THINGS.
INDEED YOU ARE.
LIONEL BARBER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
> IN THIS ELECTION, TOP OF THE AGENDA FOR MANY PEOPLE HAS BEEN THE RECKONING FOR RACIAL INJUSTICE.
EARLY EXIT POLLS SHOW IT WAS A CONCERN FOR ONE IN FIVE VOTERS.
IT'S NO SURPRISE IN A YEAR THAT'S SEEN SUPPORT FOR BLACK LIVES MATTER SURGE AFTER POLICE KILLINGS OF UNARMED AFRICAN-AMERICANS, PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE FLOYD AND BREONNA TAYLOR, AHMAUD ARBERY.
ONE MAN AT THE HEART OF ALL THESE CASES IS CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY BEN CRUMP.
HE'S LAWYER FOR THE FAMILIES SEEKING JUSTICE.
HERE HE IS TALKING TO TO OUR MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT WHAT LIES AHEAD.
BEN CRUMP, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, MICHEL.
MANY PEOPLE WILL KNOW THAT YOU HAVE REPRESENTED FAMILY MEMBERS IN SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT, MOST PROMINENT POLICE VIOLENCE CASES THAT THE COUNTRY HAS SEEN IN RECENT YEARS.
IN THE SPIRIT OF FULL DISCLOSURE, I INTERVIEWED YOU SHORTLY AFTER YOU BECAME INVOLVED IN THE TRAYVON MARTIN CASE.
MY RECOLLECTION IS WHEN TRAYVON'S FATHER TRACY MARTIN FIRST CALLED YOU TO GET INVOLVED, YOU TOLD HIM, YOU DON'T NEED ME, YOU DON'T NEED ME.
AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE SURPRISED TO HEAR THAT.
AND SO WHY DID YOU SAY THAT BACK THEN?
DID YOU HONESTLY -- YOU JUST BELIEVED THAT THE LAW WOULD PURSUE THE MATTER AGGRESSIVELY AND THAT YOU REALLY DIDN'T NEED TO GET INVOLVED?
AND WAS THAT A WAKE-UP CALL FOR YOU?
IN SOME WAYS IT WAS.
IN SOME WAYS WE KNEW THAT FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO GET EQUAL JUSTICES IN AMERICA, WE HAVE TO GO ABOVE AND BEYOND.
BUT WHAT I BELIEVE AS AN ATTORNEY, WE'RE OFFICERS OF THE COURT.
WE BELIEVE THAT THE SYSTEMS SHOULD WORK EQUALLY FOR ALL OF OUR CHILDREN.
AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAD AN UNARMED DEAD TEENAGER LYING ON THE GROUND AND THE SELF-PROFESSED KILLER WITH THE PROVERBIAL SMOKING GUN IN HIS HAND, I JUST SAID, THEY HAVE TO ARREST HIM, MICHEL, I COULD NOT SEE -- IF THIS WAS A WHITE KID, NOBODY COULD TELL ME THAT THE PERSONAL WOULDN'T BE ARRESTED.
I TOLD MR. MARTIN, AFTER HE EXPLAINED IT TO ME, YOU DON'T NEED ME, GIVE IT A COUPLE OF DAYS, I'M SURE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO ARREST HIM.
AND, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVED THAT WITH EVERYTHING IN MY HEART BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO WORK.
TWO DAYS WENT BY.
MR. MARTIN CALLED ME BACK WITH THE SAME SOUND OF HEARTBROKENNESS.
I MEAN, IT WAS SUCH A SOUND, I STILL CAN'T ARTICULATE IT TODAY, MICHEL, BECAUSE SOMETIMES BLACK MEN GET A BAD KNOCK, SAYING THAT WE DON'T LOVE OUR CHILDREN.
IT WAS CLEAR FROM TRAYVON MARTIN'S FATHER THAT HE LOVED HIS SON WITH HIS WHOLE HEART AND HE WAS TELLING ME THEY SAID THEY WERE NOT GOING TO ARREST HIM BECAUSE OF THIS THING CALLED STAND YOUR GROUND, AND THAT IS WHEN I HAD TO MAKE THE DECISION TO SAY, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO ANSWER THE BAIL AND WE'RE GOING TO GO FIGHT FOR THIS LITTLE BLACK BOY WHO WAS WALKING HOME WITH A BAG OF SKITTLES AND A CAN OF ICED TEA WHEN A NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH -- I GUESS A NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH PATROLMAN PROFILED, PURSUED HIM, AND SHOT HIM IN THE HEART.
YOU'VE GOTTEN SOME REMARKABLE FINANCIAL SETTLEMENTS.
IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE REPORTED SETTLEMENT IN THE SHOOTING DEATH OF BREONNA TAYLOR IS THE LARGEST ON RECORD IN THAT CITY.
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE SETTLEMENT IN THE MICHAEL BROWN CASE, IT WAS REPORTED THAT IT WAS ABOUT A MILLION, $1.5 MILLION, IN THE TRAYVON MARTIN CASE IT WAS ABOUT IN THE RANGE OF $1 MILLION.
AND THE SETTLEMENTS ARE ESCALATING.
SO THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE LOST LOVED ONES ARE RECEIVING THESE SETTLEMENTS.
BUT HAS ANYTHING CHANGED IN TERMS OF THE CONDUCT?
IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT -- 'THE WASHINGTON POST,' FOR EXAMPLE, REPORTED THAT IN 2019 THERE WERE SOME 990 PEOPLE KILLED BY THE POLICE.
AND THE DATA ALSO INDICATES THAT WHILE AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND WHITES ARE EQUALLY LIKELY TO BE KILLED BY POLICE, THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO BE UNARMED WHEN THEY ARE KILLED BY THE POLICE.
I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S A JOURNEY TO JUSTICE, MICHEL.
YOU TAKE SOMETIMES ONE STEP FORWARD AND THEN ONE STEP BACK.
BUT THE JOURNEY CONTINUES.
AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO BE ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS OVERNIGHT.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT FOR 401 YEARS, WE HAVE FACED SYSTEMATIC RACISM AND OPPRESSION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
AND I THINK ABOUT THE LESSONS AND THE HISTORY.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS TEN YEARS AFTER EMMETT TILL WAS KILLED THAT WE FINALLY GOT THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT PASSED EVEN THOUGH THAT WAS THE CATALYST FOR ALL THIS UPRISING.
AND I THINK TRAYVON MARTIN WAS THE CATALYST, YOU KNOW, NINE YEARS AGO, FOR THE UPRISING OF BLACK LIVES MATTER.
AND SO IT IS A PERPETUAL, CONSTANT STRUGGLE.
AND WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE FACT, WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET RECORD SETTLEMENTS.
TAMIR RICE, $6 MILLION.
I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT CITIES, IF THEY HAVE TO KEEP PAYING OUT THESE LARGE FINANCIAL ECONOMIC SETTLEMENTS, THAT AFFECT THEIR BUDGETS, THEN THEY WILL HIRE BETTER POLICE, THEY WILL GIVE BETTER IMPLICIT BIAS TRAINING.
THEY WILL HAVE THEIR OFFICERS NOT SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, WHEN IT'S UNARMED BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE, THEY WON'T BE CHOKING US TO DEATH, THEY WON'T BE BUSTING IN OUR HOUSES AT 1:00 IN THE MORNING, VIOLATING THE FOURTH AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION WITH THESE NO-KNOCK WARRANTS, AND A WHOLE HOST OF THINGS, MICHEL.
BUT ESSENTIALLY, IF WHAT YOU SAID WENT INTO QUESTION THAT REALLY STRUCK ME, BECAUSE I'VE ARGUED AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP AND ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM BARR ON THAT ISSUE, WHEN THEY SAY THERE IS NO SYSTEMATIC RACISM IN AMERICA.
AND YOU HAVE ALL THE STATISTICS AND DATA THAT SHOW THAT'S NOT TRUE.
BUT THEY ALWAYS LIKE TO SAY, WELL, THE POLICE KILL MORE WHITE PEOPLE THAN THEY KILL BLACK PEOPLE.
THAT IS TRUE.
BLACK PEOPLE MAKE UP 13% OF THE POPULATION IN AMERICA.
WHITE PEOPLE MAKE UP 73% OF THE POPULATION IN AMERICA.
SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ANYWHERE CLOSE, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT JUST ON THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE NUMBERS.
HOWEVER, IT'S THE CONTEXT.
I MEAN, WHEN WHITE PEOPLE ARE SHOT BY THE POLICE, IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT THEY ARE ARMED AND THEY ARE THREATENING.
BUT WHEN YOU SEE BLACK PEOPLE BEING SHOT BY THE POLICE, OFTENTIMES, IT'S LAQUAN McDONALD RUNNING AWAY, WATER SCOTT RUNNING AWAY.
GEORGE FLOYD, FACE DOWN, HANDCUFFED, BEING CHOKED.
ERIC GARNER BEING CHOKED.
TERRENCE CRUTCHER WALKING AWAY WITH HIS HANDS UP IN BROAD DAYLIGHT ON VIDEO IN TULSA, OKLAHOMA.
SOMEONE EATING ICE CREAM, WATCHING TV IN HIS APARTMENT WHEN THE POLICE ALLEGEDLY WENT TO THE WRONG APARTMENT.
CORY JONES, TALKING ON THE PHONE WITH A TOW TRUCK DRIVER WHEN POLICE COME AND SHOOT AND KILL HIM.
SANDRA BLAND, PAMELA TURNER.
THE SYSTEM IS NOT GETTING NEARLY ENOUGH ATTENTION.
OUTSIDE OF HOUSTON, ON THE GROUND, THE POLICE SHOOT FIVE TIMES AND KILL HER.
SO IF THESE INSTANCES, WHERE BLACK PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED, WHERE IT IS NOT THREATENING WHATSOEVER, BUT YET WE ARE STILL HAVING THESE EXTRA JUDICIAL KILLINGS BY THE POLICE ON BLACK AND BROWN BODIES.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENED IN RECENT YEARS THAT'S BEEN SPARKED IN PART BY THE EXTRA JUDICIAL KILLINGS OF BLACK PEOPLE AND KILLINGS BY WHITE VIGILANTES IS AN ENORMOUS SOCIAL JUSTICE MOVEMENT THAT IS PROBABLY THE LARGEST WE'VE SEEN IN DECADES.
THERE HAVE BEEN BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS ALL OVER THE WORLD.
THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU AT THIS MOMENT IS, ARE THEY HELPING OR ARE THEY HURTING?
BECAUSE THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT A BACKLASH IS BREWING IN PART BECAUSE SOME OF THESE PROTESTS, A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF THEM, BUT SOME OF THESE PROTESTS HAVE GOTTEN VIOLENT.
YOU KNOW, I LIKE TO FANCY MYSELF, MICHEL, AS A STUDENT OF HISTORY.
AND IN THE UNITED STATES, ALL THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, ANY TIME YOU HAVE SEEN OPPRESSED PEOPLE ATTEMPT TO RISE UP AGAINST THEIR OPPRESSORS AND ORGANIZE, MOBILIZE, AND STRATEGIZE WITHIN THE CONSTRUCTS OF THAT GOVERNMENT, WHERE THERE'S THE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS HERE IN AMERICA, OR FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN OTHER PLACES, THE OPPRESSOR ALWAYS TRIES TO DEMONIZE THE MOVEMENT, TRIES TO CREATE A NARRATIVE THAT IT IS SOMETHING NEFARIOUS.
I THINK BY A LARGE NUMBER, THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS, THE FREEDOM PROTESTS, ALL THESE YOUNG PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER, JUSTICE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION, THEY'RE MARCHING, DEMONSTRATING.
AND MANY ARE NONVIOLENT.
AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T CONTROL EVERY ASPECT OF IT.
BUT YOU SEE THAT THERE IS THIS BACKLASH OF EXTREME VIOLENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE WITH THESE WHITE NATIONALISTS.
WHEN I THINK OF KENOSHA, WISCONSIN, THESE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE WALKING WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS.
AND THE THREE PROTESTERS WERE KILLED -- I'M SORRY, TWO PROTESTERS KILLED, THREE WERE SHOT.
AND THEY SAID IT WAS SELF-DEFENSE, WHEN THE WHITE NATIONAL SUPREMACIST OR WHATEVER YOU CALL THEM IN MICHIGAN WENT AND TOOK THE STATEHOUSE WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS, NOBODY PEPPER SPRAYED THEM.
NOBODY SHOT RUBBER BULLETS AT THEM.
NOBODY ARRESTED THEM.
AND SUBSEQUENTLY, IT WAS FOUND OUT THAT THERE WAS A KIDNAPPING PLOT TO GET THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN, WHITMER.
AND THEY TRIED TO DOWNPLAY THAT.
CAN YOU IMAGINE IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT WAS DISCOVERED FROM BLACK LIVES MATTER, WHAT THE NARRATIVE WOULD BE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHAT THE NARRATIVE WOULD BE FROM ALL THESE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA OUTLETS?
BUT YET, WHEN IT IS REVERSED, THEY DOWNPLAY IT.
IN FACT I THINK SOMEBODY EVEN WENT AS FAR AS TO SAY THAT THEY COULD MAKE A CITIZENS ARREST AND THEN CALL IT KIDNAPPING WITH THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN.
SO IT REALLY IS THESE NARRATIVES.
YOU HAVE TO FIGHT IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.
AND OBVIOUSLY RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A PRESIDENT, CURRENTLY, WE DON'T KNOW FOR HOW MANY MORE MONTHS, BUT HE HAS SAID THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES, WHEN THE WHITE NATIONALISTS WERE MARCHING AND CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA, SAYS THE JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US AND THEY WERE BURNING CROSSES.
AND HOW CAN YOU CONDONE THAT KIND OF HATRED, BUT YET THEY WANT TO ATTACK YOUNG BLACK PEOPLE FOR SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE'RE PROTESTING FOR OUR VERY LIVES.
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY INTERESTING, THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SO CREATIVE, MICHEL, THEY HAVE A SIGN UP AND THOUGH SHOWED THAT PEOPLE WERE PROTESTING, DURING THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC, TO OPEN BACK UP DISNEY WORLD.
I MEAN, THEY HAD PROTESTS LIKE THEY HAD IN MICHIGAN.
WHILE BLACK PEOPLE, WE'RE PROTESTING THAT WE JUST WANT TO LIVE.
THE QUESTION IS, AGAIN, DO YOU THINK THAT YOU'RE MAKING PROGRESS?
WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS.
WE'RE MAKING TREMENDOUS PROGRESS.
SO I NEVER, EVER WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK THAT THE BALL IS NOT MOVING FORWARD.
I THINK ABOUT BREONNA TAYLOR'S SETTLEMENT.
MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE RECORD AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT WAS PAID OUT WAS THE FACT THAT WE GOT ALL THIS REFORM, THE FACT THAT THEY ABOLISHED NO-KNOCK WARRANTS IN LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY.
THE FACT THAT THEY CAME UP WITH A HOUSING INCENTIVE PROGRAM.
THEY HAVE THE POLICE LIVING IN THE CITY AND IN THE MINORITY COMMUNITIES THAT THEY POLICE WITH THE IDEA, IF YOU KNOW YOUR NEIGHBORS, IT WON'T BE A LIFE AND DEATH SITUATION WHEN YOU INTERACT WITH THEM, AND YOU WON'T SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER.
ALSO, IN THE BREONNA TAYLOR SETTLEMENT, THEY HAD 12 SOCIAL WORKERS THAT THE CITY HIRED, AND EVERY TIME THERE IS A 911 CALL FOR A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE INCIDENT, OR A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS INCIDENT, THAT SOCIAL WORKER WILL GO WITH THEM TO TRY TO DE-ESCALATE THE SITUATION VERSUS TO ESCALATE THE SITUATION.
AS WE ARE SEEING NOW, THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE HAS YET TO BE CONCLUDED, CONTROL OF THE SENATE IS STILL SORT OF HANGING IN THE BALANCE HERE BECAUSE ALL THE BALLOTS HAVE TO GET COUNTED.
AND YET THERE'S THIS ATMOSPHERE OF REAL SORT OF TENSION AND ANXIETY, YOU KNOW, THAT DURING ONE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ASKED TO DENOUNCE KIND OF WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND HE DECLINED TO DO SO.
ON THE OTHER HAND, JOE BIDEN, THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, HAS COME IN FOR SOME CRITICISM FOR HIS PAST RECORD ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE ISSUES.
THERE ARE SOME ON THE LEFT CRITICAL OF THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE, KAMALA HARRIS, FOR HER RECORD AS A PROSECUTOR.
DO YOU SEE THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN SOME WAYS AS A REFERENDUM ON WHERE THE COUNTRY IS ON RACE?
HOW DO YOU SEE IT?
I DO SEE THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, MORE SO THAN OTHERS, AS BEING A REFERENDUM ON RACE AND SOCIAL JUSTICE.
A REFERENDUM, I THINK, IN MANY WAYS, MICHEL, THIS WHOLE NOTION OF THE PREAMBLE TO THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION, WHICH WE ALL QUOTE, I STILL GO IN COURTROOMS AND I QUESTION IF THEY REALLY BELIEVE IT WHEN THEY SAY WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT, THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, THAT ARE ENDOWED WITH THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN INALIENABLE RIGHTS, AMONG THEM THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
I QUESTION WHETHER THIS PRESIDENT BELIEVES THAT.
I WANT TO BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT JOE BIDEN, DESPITE SOME OF HIS PAST MISTAKES, NO MAN IS PERFECT, NO POLITICIAN IS PERFECT, BUT I WANT TO BELIEVE HE HAS CHARACTER AND CONVICTION, AND THAT HE HAS EVOLVED.
AND THE SAME WITH MY DEAR FRIEND SENATOR KAMALA HARRIS WHO IS A BLACK WOMAN WHO IF ELECTED WOULD BECOME THE FIRST VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF COLOR AND BE LITERALLY THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN WHO IS WITHIN A HEARTBEAT OF BEING THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD.
AND THAT IS SIGNIFICANT.
AND SHE HAS TRIED TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM FROM WORKING ON THE INSIDE.
AND WHEN YOU'RE ON THE INSIDE, IT IS CHALLENGING, BECAUSE POLITICS BY ITS VERY DEFINITION IS THE ART OF COMPROMISE.
SO YOU CAN'T ALWAYS DO THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO TRY TO WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO THINK DIFFERENTLY FROM YOU.
BUT WITH ALL OF THAT SAID, WE HAVE TO TRANSFORM THIS PAIN WE ARE COLLECTIVELY FEELING, WATCHING THOSE VIDEOS OF AHMAUD AND ESPECIALLY GEORGE FLOYD, TRANSFORM THAT PAIN INTO A SENSE OF POWER, AND MY LORD, TRANSFORM THE PROTESTS INTO POLICIES AND ACTION AT THE POLLS.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE WE WILL GET A NEW PRESIDENT THAT THINKS DIFFERENTLY THAN THE ONE WE HAVE HAD FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.
DO YOU EVER ENVISION A DAY WHEN A PARENT LIKE TRACY MARTIN MIGHT CALL YOU AND YOU CAN HONESTLY SAY YOU DON'T NEED ME?
I PRAY FOR THAT DAY.
I DON'T KNOW IF I'LL SEE IT IN MY LIFETIME.
BEN CRUMP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHEL.
I TREASURE OUR CONVERSATIONS.
AND THAT MUST BE THE FERVENT HOPE OF MANY, MANY PARENTS.
SO FINALLY TONIGHT, IN WHAT MUST BE A FULL CIRCLE MOMENT, DEBORAH HICKSON, THE WIDOW OF A VICTIM OF THE 2018 PARKLAND SHOOTING, HAS WON A SCHOOL BOARD SEAT IN THAT SAME COUNTY.
HER HUSBAND CHRIS WAS THE ATHLETICS DIRECTOR AND WRESTLING COACH AT MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL IN FLORIDA.
HE WAS KILLED TRYING TO DISARM THE SHOOTER WHO TOOK 17 LIVES.
SHE HAS SINCE TURNED HER GRIEVE INTO ADVOCACY FOR STRICTER GUN LAWS AND MAKING SCHOOLS SAFER.
ELECTIONS DO MATTER FROM SCHOOL BOARD ALL THE WAY UP TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS.
AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.