November 24, 2020

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WELL, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOW TO ENGAGE CHINA AND THE COMPETITION IT POSES, CHALLENGE THAT IT POSES, WE REALLY HAVE TO START WITH US BECAUSE IN MANY WAYSS IT'S ABOUT US.

MEET AMERICA'S NEWEST TOP DIPLOMAT, BUT WHAT KIND OF WORLD WILL THE NEW ADMINISTRATION INHERIT?

I ASK FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EU ANTHONY GARDNER AND FORMER BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY DAVID MILIBAND.

> AND --

GENDER EQUALITY HAS TO BE MORE THAN AN ASPIRATION.

THE MESSAGE IS CHANGE AS MAYORS FROM SIX OF THE WORLD'S GREAT CITIES JOIN FORCES FOR GENDER EQUALITY.

THE LEADERS OF LONDON AND MEXICO CITY JOIN ME WITH THEIR NEW INITIATIVE.

> THEN --

THE PEOPLE YOU'RE CRITICIZING ARE AS COMPLICATED AS YOU ARE, AND THEY'RE LEARNING JUST LIKE YOU'RE LEARNING.

PROFESSOR AND ACTIVIST LORETTA J. ROSS TELLS OUR MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT CANCEL CULTURE AND CALLING PEOPLE IN INSTEAD OF OUT.

'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE TRANSITION FROM THE TRUMP TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS NOW OFFICIALLY UNDER WAY.

THE NECESSARY FUNDS AND MACHINERY TO MAKE WAY FOR PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN ARE NOW AUTHORIZED, AND HE IS WASTING NO TIME ANNOUNCING KEY MEMBERS OF HIS INCOMING ADMINISTRATION, MANY FAMILIAR FACES FROM THE OBAMA ERA, AND THERE IS A CLEAR MESSAGE --

IT'S A TEAM THAT WILL KEEP OUR COUNTRY AND OUR PEOPLE SAFE AND SECURE, AND IT'S A TEAM THAT REFLECTS THE FACT THAT AMERICA IS BACK.

THE TEAM MEETS THIS MOMENT, THIS TEAM BEHIND ME.

THEY EMBODY MY CORE BELIEFS THAT AMERICA IS STRONGEST WHEN IT WORKS WITH ITS ALLIES.

COLLECTIVELY, THIS TEAM HAS SECURED SOME OF THE MOST DEFINING NATIONAL SECURITY AND DIPLOMATIC ACHIEVEMENTS IN RECENT MEMORY MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH DECADES OF EXPERIENCE WORKING WITH OUR PARTNERS.

SO HIS PICK FOR SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT THE MULTILATERAL DIRECTION OF BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY, BUT EVEN AS AMERICA FIRST IS REMOVED FROM SLOGANEERING, FOUR YEARS OF THE TRUMP POLICY HAVE SEEN THE U.S.

WITHDRAW FROM THE W.H.O., NUCLEAR AGREEMENT WITH IRAN AND THE PARIS AGREEMENT, AND LEAVE BEHIND A DIMINISHED TRANS-ATLANTIC.

THIS IS A DIMINISHED WORLD THAT VICE PRESIDENT LEFT BACK IN 2016.

TO DISCUSS WHAT'S AHEAD FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN UNION TONY GARDNER JOINS ME, AND FORMER HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE DAVID MILIBAND JOINS US FROM NEW YORK CITY.

GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WANT TO JUST START WITH ASKING YOU THE INITIAL REACTION TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM THAT PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN HAS JUST UNVEILED.

FIRST YOU, AS AN AMERICAN IN EUROPE, ANTHONY GARDNER.

WELL, LOOK, IT'S A TERRIFIC TEAM.

IT'S A VERY EXPERIENCED TEAM.

I'VE KNOWN TONY BLINKEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

AS A KID GROWING UP, WE WENT TO SCHOOL TOGETHER.

I WORKED WITH HIM TWICE IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

I'VE SEEN HIM IN THE TRENCHES IN SOME REALLY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS WITH A LOT OF PRESSURE.

HE LED THE INTERAGENCY EFFORT AFTER RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE WHICH WAS VERY TOUGH TO GET EVERYONE ALIGNED BUT ALSO DEALING WITH BIG EGOS AROUND THE TABLE.

NOT ONLY DOES HE HAVE THE RIGHT PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS, HE ALSO IS AN EXCEPTIONAL INDIVIDUAL.

IT'S VERY HARD TO FIND ANYONE IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO HAVE A NEGATIVE WORD TO SAY ABOUT ANTONY BLINKEN, THAT'S EXTREMELY RARE.

AS YOU SAW IN THE CLIP, HE BELIEVES IN ALLIES WORKING WITH OUR FRIENDS IN EUROPE TO ACHIEVE RESULTS.

PARTICULARLY WITH CHINA AND RUSSIA AND THE OTHER CHALLENGES.

SO DAVID MILIBAND, WITH BOTH YOUR HATS ON, NOT JUST HUMANITARIAN AND REFUGEE DRIVEN BUT ALSO AS A FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS A EUROPEAN, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN?

I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT-ELECT IS NOT 'BACK,' AMERICA IS BACK, BUT THE WORD, 'TEAM' THAT HE EMPHASIZED SO MANY TIMES IN THE CLIP THAT YOU PLAYED.

GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS IN MY EXPERIENCE ARE MADE BY CHARACTER AND CHARACTERISTICS, AND THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE LOW ON EGO, HIGH ON EXPERIENCE, SERIOUS ABOUT VALUES, BUT THEY ARE ALSO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THAT THERE IS A TEAM TO LEAD AND A TIME TO LISTEN, SO I THINK THIS IS A MOMENT THAT SENDS A VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE, BOTH TO THOSE WHO ARE ALLIES OF AMERICA, GET READY FOR BUSINESS.

WE'VE GOT WORK TO DO.

IT ALSO SAYS TO RIVALS WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE WORKING ON OUR OWN ANYMORE.

WE'RE GOING TO BE WORKING WITH OTHERS.

WE'LL BE LOOKING TO COOPERATE WHERE WE CAN, BUT WE'LL HAVE TO COMPETE IN A RANGE OF AREAS, AND THAT'S GOING TO BE DONE IN A SERIOUS AND DEVELOPED AND CROSS-GOVERNMENTAL WAY BECAUSE THIS TEAM IS NOT A TEAM OF RIVALS.

IT'S A TEAM OF COLLEAGUES.

SO YOU, YOURSELF, HAVE CALLED FOR THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION TO FIT AN EXTRA $20 BILLION, I BELIEVE, FOR REFUGEES AND ALSO TO SPRUCE UP THEIR ASYLUM PROCESS.

I WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT BECAUSE TONY BLINKEN'S SPEECH WAS REMARKABLE FOR HIS REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE GIVEN HIS PARENTS AND HIS FAMILY IN THE ISSUE OF HUMANITARIAN AND INTERNATIONAL LAW AND REFUGEES.

LET'S JUST PLAY THIS.

FOR MY FAMILY, AS FOR SO MANY GENERATIONS OF AMERICANS, AMERICA HAS LITERALLY BEEN THE LAST BEST HOPE ON EARTH.

VERA BLINKEN FLED COMMUNIST HUNGARY AS A YOUNG GIRL AND HELPED FUTURE GENERATIONS OF REFUGEES COME TO AMERICA.

MY MOTHER, JUDITH PIZAR, BUILDS BRIDGES BETWEEN AMERICA AND THE WORLD THROUGH ARTS AND CULTURE.

SHE IS MY GREATEST CHAMPION.

MY LATE STEPFATHER, SAMUEL PIZAR, HE WAS 1 OF 900 CHILDREN IN HIS SCHOOL IN POLAND BUT THE ONLY ONE TO SURVIVE THE HOLOCAUST AFTER FOUR YEARS IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

AND HE WENT ON TO SAY THAT HIS STEPFATHER WAS RESCUED BY AN AMERICAN TANK BATTALION, AND THE SOLDIER WHO POPPED HIS HEAD OUT TO WELCOME HIM, HE MADE A POINT OF SAYING WAS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

IT WAS REALLY QUITE REMARKABLE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH THEN IN TERMS OF ACTUAL FOREIGN POLICY AND SOFT POWER WHAT THIS IS.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, TONY GARDNER.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

IS IT IMPORTANT THAT KIND OF EXPERIENCE, AND IF SO, WHY FOR THE FOREIGN POLICY OF A SUPERPOWER?

IT WAS A FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE FOR HIM.

I KNEW SAM PIZAR AND I KNOW HOW MUCH OF AN IMPACT IT HAD ON TONY BLINKEN.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE FAVORITE PHRASES THAT TONY HAS USED FOR MANY YEARS NOW IS WE SHOULDN'T JUST HAVE -- WE SHOULDN'T JUST USE THE EXAMPLE OF OUR POWER, WE SHOULD USE THE POWER OF OUR EXAMPLE.

AND ANOTHER PHRASE HE LIKES USING, I THINK QUITE CORRECTLY, IS WE NEED NOT JUST CONVINCE PEOPLE IN THEIR MINDS, IN THEIR CONVICTIONS, BUT ALSO WIN OVER THEIR HEARTS.

HEARTS AND MINDS.

THAT'S THE KIND OF PERSON HE IS, AND I THINK IT GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO HIS YEARS AT HARVARD AS AN UNDERGRADUATE.

HE WROTE HIS UNDERGRADUATE THESIS CALLED 'ALLY VERSUS ALLY.'

ONE OF THE CONCLUSIONS OF THAT WORK IS THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO WORK WITH ITS POWER IN A JUDICIOUS WAY AND NOT ABUSE IT AND THAT IF WE ARE SPLIT IN TERMS OF AN ALLIANCE, WE END UP, YOU KNOW, HARMING OURSELVES.

DAVID MILIBAND, AGAIN, THIS IS A BIG FOCUS FOR YOU RIGHT NOW, JUST, AS I SAID, REFUGEES, ASYLUM.

THERE'S THE MEXICAN/U.S. BORDER.

THERE'S ALL OVER THE WORLD, THE YEMEN REFUGEES, REFUGEES THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN ETHIOPIA AS THE WAR REALLY GATHERS PACE THERE, AND THEY ARE MOVING INTO SUDAN.

AGAIN, WHAT DO YOU HOPE, AND DO YOU REALLY THINK THE POLITICS OF AMERICA AFTER THESE FOUR YEARS WILL ALLOW A NEW ADMINISTRATION TO PUT THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT YOU'RE CALLING FOR INTO THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

WELL, LET ME SAY TWO THINGS THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

FIRST OF ALL, WE'RE LIVING IN THE AGE OF COVID.

COVID IS THE CENTRAL FIRST RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION AT HOME, AND OUR ARGUMENT IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BEAT COVID ABROAD AS WELL AS BEAT IT AT HOME IF YOU'RE TO GET BACK TO ANY KIND OF NORMALITY.

THE $20 BILLION WE'VE ARGUED FOR IS SPECIFICALLY TO TACKLE THE HEALTH IMPACTS OF COVID AND THE COLLATERAL ECONOMIC DAMAGE AS PART OF A GLOBAL PLAN TO ENSURE THAT THE INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE TO COVID MATCHES UP TO THE SCALE OF THE DOMESTIC RESPONSE.

UP UNTIL NOW, ONLY A FRACTION HAS BEEN PAID FOR THE GLOBAL CONSEQUENCES AND WE NEED TO RIGHT THIS SHIP.

THE SECOND PART THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT, SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO TONY BLINKEN'S HISTORY BUT ACTUALLY SPEAKS TO THE PRESENT IS THAT WE'RE LIVING IN AN AGE OF IMMUNITY.

WE'RE LIVING IN AN AGE WHEN BOTH STATE AND NON-STATE ACTORS ARE GUILTY OF WAR CRIMES AND BR BREACHES OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW AROUND THE WORLD.

I'M AFRAID OF THE WAY IN WHICH THE ADMINISTRATION OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS HAS REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE THE RIGHTS OF ASYLUM SEEKERS HAS COMPROMISED THIS AGE OF IMPUNITY.

THIS TEAM STANDS TO A RULES-BASED APPROACH TO INTERNATIONAL ORDER THAT WILL START WITH ISSUES THAT ARE CLOSE TO HOME, TO DO WITH HEALTH OR CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT IT WILL GO BROADER SO THE BIGGER GEOPOLITICAL QUESTIONS THAT CONFRONT THE WORLD, INCREASINGLY INTERD INTERDEPENDENT, COUNTRIES ARE TIED BEFORE AS NEVER BEFORE, THE RULES IN WHICH THEY ARE GOVERNED IS WEAKLY ENFORCED.

THAT'S A CENTRAL CHALLENGE THIS ADMINISTRATION NEEDS TO LEAD THE WORLD IN ADDRESSING.

I THINK THEY HAVE THE SMARTS TO DO IT.

THEY HAVE THE VALUES TO DO IT.

WHAT THEY'VE GOT TO DO IS BUILD THE MOMENTUM.

THAT'S NOT JUST UP TO THEM.

IT'S UP TO EUROPEAN AND OTHER PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD JOIN WITH THEM.

TONY, YOU'VE BEEN AMBASSADOR AND DO YOU THINK THEY ARE UP TO IT, CERTAINLY THE NEW MESSAGE, THE AWE ADMINISTRATION, OR DO THEY THINK THESE LAST FOUR YEARS IN A WAY HAVE IRREVOCABLY CHANGED THE WAY OF MULTILATERALISM, OTHER THINGS THE UNITED STATES DIDN'T JUST DO, BUT LED.

WHAT DO THEY EXPECT FROM A NEW ADMINISTRATION?

WELL, I THINK MOST OF EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE OVERJOYED AND INCLUDING THE EU INSTITUTIONS ARE OVERJOYED BY THE CHANGE OF ADMINISTRATIONS.

OF COURSE, THEY'RE WORRIED THIS COULD BE WASHED AWAY IN FOUR YEARS.

OF COURSE, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE.

ALL OF THAT MEANS WE BETTER SUCCEED TOGETHER.

AND IT MEANS THAT WE -- IF WE WANT TO GO FAR, WE HAVE TO GO TOGETHER AND IT MEANS EUROPE HAS TO ASK ITSELF THE QUESTIONS YOU SUGGESTED.

WHAT CAN IT DO TO ENSURE THAT THE MODEL OF WORKING WITH ALLIES WITHIN THE RULES, WITH INSTITUTIONS, IS A BETTER WAY THAN GOING UNILATERALLY, BILATERALLY, TRANSACTIONALLY, WHICH WAS THE DONALD TRUMP WAY OF DOING BUSINESS.

AND THAT HAS FAILED.

EVEN WITH A TRADE DEAL WITH CHINA, IT'S FAILED BECAUSE, IN FACT, THE TRADE DEFICIT OF CHINA HAS GONE UP, IT HASN'T GONE DOWN, AND HE'S FAILED TO ACHIEVE WHAT HE PROMISED TO ACHIEVE.

A LOT IS AT STAKE.

A LOT OF THE WORK IN THE TRANSITION LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION, WHAT CONDAN BE DONE WITHIN 18 MONTHS, 24 MONTHS, TO PR PROVE THAT CASE?

YOU MENTIONED CHINA.

I WANT TO GO TO SPECIFIC HARD POLICY ISSUES.

IT'S A BIG CHALLENGE FOR THE U.S., ALSO FOR AGO I INTERVIEW TONY BLINKEN AS HE WAS THEN ABOUT CHINA.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED UNDER THE FOUR YEARS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THINK ABOUT THIS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS HELPED CHINA ADVANCE ITS KEY STRATEGIC GOALS, WEAKENING AMERICAN ALLIANCES, CHECK.

LEAVING A VACUUM IN THE WORLD FOR CHINA TO TRY TO FILL, CHECK.

ABANDONING OUR OWN VALUES AND GIVING BEIJING A GREEN LIGHT TO TRAMPLE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY IN HONG KONG, CHECK.

MAYBE WORST OF ALL, DEBASING OUR AND DEMOCRACY EVERY DAY BY ATTACKING ITS INSTITUTIONS, ITS VALUES, ITSELF PEOPLE, SO REDUCING ITS APPEAL.

THAT'S WHAT I LIKE TO CALL CHECK MATE.

HE WENT ON TO SAY THE BEST WAY TO CHECK CHINA IS REALLY STRENGTHEN AMERICAN VALUES, DEMOCRACY AND ALL THE OTHER INSTITUTIONS.

DAVID, YOU KNOW, AS FORMER SECRETARY YOU'VE HAD TO DEAL WITH A WHOLE LOAD OF CHALLENGES.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE BIGGER CHALLENGE?

HOW SHOULD AMERICA OR EUROPE VIEW CHINA AS A COMPETITOR, AS SOMETHING TO BE CONTAINED, SOME -- WHAT CAN ONE DO DIFFERENT BECAUSE EVERYBODY SEEMS TO THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME KIND OF CHANGE BETWEEN THE WEST AND CHINA IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK THAT CHINA IS THE COUNTRY, CIVILIZATION, IT'S NOT JUST ONE ISSUE IN THE FOREIGN POLICY PACKET.

IT'S A FRAMING QUESTION OF GEOPOLITICS IN THE 21st CENTURY.

AND THE TRUTH IS THAT CHINA IS BOTH A RIVAL AND A COOPERATING COLLEAGUE.

AND IN SOME PLACES A PARTNER AND IN SOME PLACES A SOURCE OF CONFRONTATION TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

YOU ONLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CLASH BETWEEN INDIA AND CHINA OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS TO SEE THERE'S ROOM FOR CONFRONTATION AS WELL AS COOPERATION.

MY OWN VIEW, VERY STRONGLY, IS THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE AN APPROACH OF COOPERATION WHERE POSSIBLE, COMPETITION WHERE NECESSARY, CONFRONTATION WHERE NOTHING ELSE IS POSSIBLE.

AND I THINK THAT THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT THE COVID ISSUE AND THE CLIMATE ISSUE AS TOP OF THE DOCKET ALLOWS THE U.S. AND CHINA TO START OFF ON A COOPERATIVE FOOTING.

I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE THAT IN THIS BRIMMING IN-TRADE, THERE ARE REAL INCENTIVES FOR THE U.S. AND CHINA TO BOTH COOPERATION ON THE GLOBAL HEALTH ISSUE AND THE CLIMATE ISSUE.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT THE RELATIONS WITH EUROPE ARE NOT SEPARATE FROM THE CHINA ISSUE.

THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY INTEGRAL TO IT BECAUSE IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP OF SEEING 21st CENTURY AS SIMPLY BEING A G2 WORLD, THE GROUP OF 2 WORLD.

AMERICA WILL BE STRONGER WITH ALLIES, BUT IT'S ALSO THE CASE THAT WE'RE INEVITABLY LIVING IN A MORE MULTIPOLAR WORLD.

EUROPE IS A REGULATORY AND ENVIRONMENTAL SUPERPOWER ALREADY.

IT NEEDS TO BE PART OF THE EQUATION AND THE FACT IT COULD BE IN ALLIANCE WITH THE U.S. IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT ASPECT OF THE NEW DISPENSATION IN WASHINGTON.

ANTHONY GARDNER, LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU'VE PROBABLY READ THE SAME ARTICLES THAT I HAVE AND THERE ARE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF ACADEMICS AND LIBERALS INSIDE CHINA AND EVEN IN HONG KONG, LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE JIMMY LEI WHO'S GOT THE BIG MEDIA EMPIRE THERE WHO'S ALSO A REFORMER.

THEY ACTUALLY SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HAVING STUCK IT TO THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA.

AND THEY THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO SORT OF TRYING TO GET THE CLAWS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OUT OF PEOPLE'S BUSINESS AND THEIR FREEDOM, TRUMP HAS DONE SOMETHING NO OTHER PRESIDENT HAS DONE.

DO YOU BUY THAT, EVEN WITH THE CA CAVEATS, SAID THE TRADE DEAL, ET CETERA, HASN'T NECESSARILY WORKED.

WHAT CHANGES DO YOU THINK A BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WILL HAVE TO DO, ANYWAY, TO CONFRONT THOSE ASPECTS OF CHINESE DOMINANCE?

NO, I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT AT ALL.

DONALD TRUMP DIDN'T DISCOVER THAT CHINA IS A CHALLENGE TO EUROPE AND TO THE UNITED STATES.

MANY OTHER PRESIDENTS UNDERSTOOD THAT AND WERE VERY TOUGH AND OBAMA WAS ONE OF THEM, ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF NAVIGATION, ABOUT THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

THOSE ISSUES AREN'T GOING TO GO AWAY.

THIS PRESIDENT-ELECT IS GOING TO FOCUS VERY MUCH ON HUMAN RIGHTS.

SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP HASN'T DONE.

NOT WITH THE EXPECTATION THAT WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE CHINA OVERNIGHT, OF COURSE, THAT WON'T HAPPEN.

WE NEED TO SHINE AN UNCOMFORTABLE LIGHT ON THE SITUATION OF THE OPPRESSED MINORITIES, IN THIS CASE THE MUSLIMS IN XINJIANG.

WHAT WILL CHANGE IS TACTICS, TACTICS, TACTICS.

WHAT MATTERS IS HOW MUCH YOU GET DONE AND CERTAINLY TRADE WHICH I MENTIONED BEFORE, VERY LITTLE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED, AND WE'RE GOING TO ACHIEVE MORE BY LEVERAGING THE POWER OF OUR MARKETS.

BELIEVE ME, CHINA TAKES THAT VERY SERIOUSLY.

CHINA HAS NOT ONLY AN ECONOMIC PROGRAM TO DOMINATE THE INDUSTRIES OF THE FUTURE AND DOMINATE TRADE BUT ALSO RIWRITE THE STANDARDS OF TRADE AND ENSHRINE ITS VALUES ACROSS THE WORLD.

WE'RE ONLY ABLE TO MEET WITH THAT CHALLENGE BUT IF WE WORK WITH OUR ALLIES, NOT ONLY EU, CANADA, JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, AND OTHERS.

IT'S WHAT'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.

I WANT TO SAY THIS.

I AGREE COMPLETELY WITH WHAT DAVE MILIBAND SAID.

IT'S NOT SAYING THAT CHINA IS JUST A THREAT BUT IT CAN BE A COLLABORATOR.

CHINA IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.

XI JINPING MADE AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT THAT CHINA WANTS TO BE CARBON NEUTRALLY 2016.

LET'S HOLD CHINA TO THAT PROMISE.

OTHER AREAS AS WELL WHERE WE CAN COLLABORATE AND SHOULD WITH CHINA.

THAT'S FASCINATING.

ALSO THAT PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN HAS ACTUALLY NAMED A SPECIAL CLIMATE ENVOY NONE OTHER THAN FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL BECAUSE HE ALSO NEGOTIATED THAT OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

JAKE SULLIVAN WHAT'S JUST BEEN NAMED NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER WAS ALSO ONE OF THOSE NEGOTIATING THAT.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT JOE BIDEN HAS SAID HE WANTS TO RE-ENTER.

SO, DAVID MILIBAND, CAN HE -- OBVIOUSLY, EUROPEANS ARE ALREADY TRYING TO REACH OUT TO THIS ADMINISTRATION TO TRY TO GET BACK INTO THIS DEAL IN SOME WAY.

HOW DO YOU -- I MEAN, THE IRANIANS HAVE SAID THAT THEY WANT TO AS WELL, BUT IT'S PROBABLY NOT THAT SIMPLE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THE AREAS OF PROGRESS ON THAT POSSIBLE?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THE VITAL POINT TO REMEMBER IS THAT THE QUESTION OF THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM SITS AT THE MIDDLE OF BIGGER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CHANGING REGION OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

AT THE MOMENT THE TOP ITEM ON THE DOCKET FOR THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO BE THE YEMEN CONFLICT.

IT'S THE LARGEST HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN THE WORLD.

18 MILLION PEOPLE DEPEND ON THIS NATIONAL MILITARY AID.

COMPLETELY FAILED AND MISFORGOTTEN WAR-STRATEGY OF THE SAUDI-LED COALITION WHICH ACTUALLY STARTED BEFORE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AND IS NOW WIDELY RECOGNIZED TO HAVE FAILED BOTH IN ITS POLITICAL GOALS BECAUSE IRAN GOT TRAUMA AND THEN CREATED THIS AMERICAN CATASTROPHE.

REALLY FIGHTING A DIPLOMATIC NEED WHICH IS GOING TO COME UNDER TENSION.

YOU'RE ALSO RIGHT TO SAY THAT THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM IS ONE THAT'S FURTHER ADVANCED THAN WHEN THE IRAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM WAS IN OPERATION UNTIL 2016 AND '17.

THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY NEGOTIATION.

I THINK THE FIRST THING TO SAY IS IT'S GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT THAT THE U.S. REJOINS NOT JUST WITH EUROPEANS BUT RUSSIA AND CHINA.

REMEMBER, IT WAS A P-5, THE PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL ALL TOGETHER WITH GERMANY WHO NEGOTIATED WITH IRAN.

SECONDLY, THERE HAS TO BE A CAREFUL CALCULATION ABOUT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF PRESSURE AND ENGAGEMENT THAT IS PUT ON IRAN BECAUSE THE SECRET OF SUCCESS UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION FOR THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR DEAL WAS THAT COMBINATION OF BOTH PRESSURE AND ENGAGEMENT.

IT'S REALLY FASCINATING BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE SECRET OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN TO ENCOURAGE AND ENABLE ISRAEL, THE GULF STATES AND SAUDI ARABIA AGAINST IRAN.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT GOING UNDER A NEW ADMINISTRATION, ANTHONY GARDNER?

WELL, I -- EVERY EFFORT WILL BE MADE TO SAVE THE IRAN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS, BUT A LOT OF WATER HAS GONE UNDER THE BRIDGE.

DAVID IS THE EXPERT HERE.

THERE MAY BE SOME SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE INCLUDING FROM CONGRESS TO CONSIDER EXPANDING THE SCOPE OF THE DEAL, PERHAPS EVEN THE TERM OF THE DEAL.

AND WE'LL SEE WHETHER THAT WILL OCCUR.

THE IRANIANS HAVEN'T GOTTEN THE BENEFIT OF THE BARGAIN THAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO GET IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS.

I AGREE THE REGION IS NOT ANY SAFER FROM THE FACT THE UNITED STATES HAS WALKED AWAY FROM THAT.

THERE'S SOME THINGS THE DONALD TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE WHICH ARE, INDEED, ACHIEVEMENTS.

WE JUST SAW NEWS IN THE LAST 24 HOURS THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU APPARENTLY TRAVELED SECRETLY TO SAUDI ARABIA.

THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE PIECE OF NEWS.

THREE ARAB COUNTRIES RECOGNIZED ROOI ISRAEL AND MADE PEACE WITH ISRAEL.

THOSE ARE ACHIEVEMENTS.

I WANT TO SAY, IT SEEMS TO BE RATHER EXTRAORDINARY TO THINK THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY REACH A LASTING PEACE IN THE REGION WITHOUT THE PARTICIPATION OF AN IMPORTANT PARTNER, PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, SO I THINK THAT WILL BE A CHANGE.

WON'T BE AN EMPHASIS OF SIMPLY PUTTING PEACE AGREEMENTS ON THE TABLE AND SAY SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH, ANTHONY GARDNER AND DAVE MILIBAND.

THANK YOU FOR THIS PERSPECTIVE.

LOT TO LOOK FORWARD TO AND ANALYZE AS WE GO ON.

THANKS A LOT.

> NOW WE SWITCH OR LENS FROM NATIONS TO CITIES AS DRIVERS OF CHANGE.

257 YEARS, THAT IS HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO CLOSE THE GENDER GAP IN ECONOMIC PARTICIPATION AND OPPORTUNITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN AND IT'S BASED ON CURRENT TRENDS ACCORDING TO THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM.

BUT NOT IF WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND THAT IS THE MESSAGE FROM SIX MAYORS FROM SOME OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST CITIES ON FOUR DIFFERENT CONTINENTS.

A NEW INTERNATIONAL INITIATIVE C CALLED 'CHANGE' LOOKS AT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS FOR SOLUTIONS TO THE EQUALITY FACING WOMEN.

I DISCUSSED THIS WITH SADIQ KHAN AND THE MAYOR OF MEXICO CITY, CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM.

MAYORS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST TO YOU, MAYOR SHEINBAUM IN MEXICO CITY, WHAT HAS COVID DONE TO THE CITY ? I MEAN, WE HEAR A LOT PARTICULARLY IN RELATION TO GINNER AS WE'RE DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW.

HOW HAVE WOMEN BEEN AFFECTED IN MEXICO CITY?

WELL, COVID HAS AFFECTED A LOT IN MEXICO CITY.

IT HAS BEEN VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

IT GOT HIT VERY HARD.

AND ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN HAS BEEN DIFFICULT, NOT ONLY IN TERMS OF VIOLENCE INSIDE THE HOUSEHOLD, INSIDE THE HOUSES, BUT RIGHT NOW IT IS VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE CHILDREN HAVEN'T GONE TO SCHOOL FOR EIGHT MONTHS SINCE NOW, SO AS YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE CHILDREN ARE TAKEN CARE OF BY WOMEN.

WOMEN WHO USED TO GO TO WORK NOW HAVE TO BE WITH THE CHILDREN.

SO THESE MAKE A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TIME FOR MANY FAMILIES AND IT HAS TOUCHED EVERYTHING.

LET ME ASK YOU, MAYOR SADIQ KHAN, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE RESOURCES OF A RICH CITY LIKE LONDON AND, PERHAPS, NOT SO RESOURCE-RICH IN MEXICO CITY.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT THIS PANDEMIC HAS DONE TO WOMEN.

LET ME JUST START BY READING YOU FROM THE 'MACKENZIE GLOBAL REPORT' THAT FOUND IN THE UNITED STATES WOMEN MADE UP 43% OF THE WORKFORCE BUT ACCOUNTED FOR 56% OF COVID-RELATED JOB LOSSES.

DO YOU SEE ANYTHING SIMILAR HERE IN LONDON?

ABSOLUTELY.

ONE OF THE REASONS WE WERE KEEN TO SET UP THIS NETWORK OF GREAT CITIES ACROSS THE GLOBE WAS TO SHARE OUR EXPERIENCES BUT ALSO SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS.

NOW, COVID HASN'T BEEN SOME GREAT LEVELER.

WE MAY ALL BE FACING THE STORM.

WE'RE IN DIFFERENT SIZED BOATS.

WHAT WE'VE NOTICED IN LONDON IS, YES, THERE HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC HEALTH AND ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES BUT THE IMPACTS ON WOMEN, ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY, AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY, HAS BEEN FAR WORSE THAN ON MEN.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN AMAZING NUMBER WHICH IS IF YOU'RE A MOTHER, YOU'RE 50% MORE LIKELY TO HAVE LOST YOUR JOB OR RESIGNED THAN IF YOU'RE A FATHER.

AND FOR THE REASONS THAT THE MAYOR OF MEXICO CITY SAID, IT'S WOMEN MOMS WHO HAVE BEEN DOING THE CHILDCARE ARRANGEMENTS WHILST CHILDREN HAVE BEEN AT HOME, BEEN THE MOMS, MOTHERS, DOING THE HOME SCHOOLING.

WE HAVE TO REALIZE WHAT COVID HAS DONE, IT'S BOTH AMPLIFIED THE INEQUALITIES THAT EXIST.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING, LET ME STICK WITH YOU FOR A MOMENT, MAYOR SADIQ KHAN, WHAT ARE YOU DOING, ACTUALLY, IN THIS CITY OR WHAT DO YOU HOPE THIS CHANGE AGENDA THAT YOU'RE CALLING FOR WILL DO TO PROTECT THE MOST VULNERABLE, IN THIS CASE, THE WOMEN?

ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE NOTICED AS MAYORS IS ACTUALLY NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS ARE VERY SLOW TO RESPOND TO WHAT'S HAPPENED ON THE GROUND.

MAYORS IN CITIES CAN BE FAR MORE NIMBLE AND QUICKER.

IN LONDON WE INVESTED BILLIONS OF POUNDS OF MONEY, GIVING WOMEN WHO ARE VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS OF DOMESTIC ABUSE WHICH IS SHUT UP DURING THE LOCKDOWN, RES PPITES.

REFUGEES, MORE HOTELS, PLACES TO GO TO.

WE INVESTED IN RELATION TO THE SKILLS AGENDA, 300 MILLION POUND BUDGET, HELPING WOMEN GET THE SKILLS THEY NEED TO GET A JOB.

THOSE WOMEN WHO HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS.

WE'RE SUPPORTING WOMEN WHEN IT COMES TO THE SUPPORT THEY NEED DURING THIS PANDEMIC.

THERE'S AN AMAZING NUMBER IN LONDON, I'M SURE IT'S THE CASE IN OTHER CITIES AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH IS EIGHT OUT OF TEN OF THE LOWEST-PAID JOBS ARE DONE BY WOMEN.

IF WE CAN UPSCALE WOMEN, GIVE THEM THE SKILLS THAT ARE FUTURE-PROOF, BETTER-PAID JOBS, WE CAN GET THEM OUT OF POORER-PAID JOBS THAT ARE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE THIS PANDEMIC AND SAVES JOBS THAT ARE MORE SECURE FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES.

LET ME TURN TO YOU, MAYOR SHAINBAUM, YOU BEGAN BY TALKING ABOUT THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

PARTICULARLY IN THIS TIME WITH NO WAY TO ESCAPE.

THERE'S BEEN A HUGE UPTICK IN CALLS BY WOMEN TO EMERGENCY HOTLINES AND A BIG INCREASE IN DOMESTIC ABUSE AND MURDERS.

IS IT A REAL WORRY FOR YOU, AND WHAT CAN YOU DO AS A MAYOR, PARTICULARLY IN THIS TIME, TO PROTECT WOMEN?

DURING THE THREE MONTHS OF THE PANDEMIC IN MEXICO CITY, WE INCREASED SCHOLARSHIPS FOR ALL THE CHILDREN IN MEXICO CITY THAT GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE GIVING A FOOD SUPPORT FOR ALL THE CHILDREN.

WE'RE TALKING 1.2 MILLION CHILDREN FROM 3 TO 15 YEARS OLD IN THE CITY.

THE OTHER THING IS WE HAVE AN AGENDA RELATED TO THE REDUCTION OF VIOLENCE FOR WOMEN IN THE CITY AND THIS AGENDA STARTED LAST YEAR.

WE ALSO SANCTIONED WHAT WE CALLED VIOLENCE IN DIGITAL, IN SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE ALSO APPROVED A BANK FOR SEXUAL AGGRESSORS AND ALSO A VERY IMPORTANT LAW, WE ARE PROTECTING WOMEN THAT SUFFER FROM VIOLENCE AT HOME.

WE ARE -- WE ARE GUARANTEED THAT THE AGGRESSOR HAS TO GO OUT OF THE HOUSE INDEPENDENTLY OF THE OWNERSHIP OF THE HOUSE.

WHAT SORT OF STRENGTH IN NUMBERS, WHAT SORT OF, I DON'T KNOW, HELP DO YOU THINK YOU GET, ASSISTANCE, FROM BEING PART OF THIS NEW INITIATIVE?

WELL, IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE MANY CITIES HAVE THIS PROBLEM RELATED TO VIOLENCE FOR WOMEN AND ALSO SUPPORT FOR WOMEN IN GENERAL, AND I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THE EXPERIENCE WE HAVE, MANY, MANY OTHER CITIES IN TERMS OF PUBLIC POLICY.

WE CAN LEARN A LOT AND WE CAN DISCUSS SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS THAT WE SHARED TOGETHER JUST ONLY TO LIVE IN CITIES AND ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN SO FOR US, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THIS NETWORK THAT IS FORMED.

SADIQ KHAN, YOU HAVE SAID IN THE PAST, LET ME GET IT CORRECT, THAT CITIES ARE THE POLITICAL FUTURE.

YOU KNOW, YOU SAID THE 19th CENTURY WAS ABOUT EMPIRE, THE 20th ABOUT NATIONS AND THE 21st WILL BE ABOUT CITIES.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, PARTICULARLY NOW AT THE END OF 2020, THE END OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY YEAR, AND WHILE EVERYBODY'S TALKING ABOUT BUILDING BACK BETTER AFTER THIS PANDEMIC.

WE'VE SEEN ACROSS THE GLOBE A GREATER URBANIZATION, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE MOVING TO CITIES AND LIVING IN CITIES.

IT'S THE REALITY WE FACE.

WE DON'T WANT TO BE SCARED OF THAT GROWTH IN OUR CITIES BUT TO PLAN FOR IT.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS MAYORS BEING INCREDIBLY NIMBLE AND SETTING UP NETWORKS TO WORK CLOSER TOGETHER, SHARE BEST PRACTICE, HAVE BIG 'C' COLLABORATION AND SMALL 'C' COMPETITION.

SO WE WORK CLOSE TOGETHER IN AREAS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE, IN AREAS TO DO WITH CULTURE.

WHAT THIS LATEST NETWORK IS ABOUT IS CITIES WORKING CLOSER TOGETHER TO TACKLE SEXISM, MISOGYNY, AND GENDER-BASED INJUSTICES.

MAKING SURE WE CAN COPY BEST IDEAS THAT WE'VE GOT, BUT ALSO THE SENSE OF SOLIDARITY IS SO IMPORTANT.

THE REALITY IS IN LONDON, IN MY VIEW, THE MOST PROGRESSIVE CITY IN THE WORLD, IF YOU'RE BORN A GIRL, YOUR LIFE IS LESS THAN IF YOU'RE A BOY.

THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT IN 2020.

INDEED.

I WONDER IF YOU'RE ALSO THINKING ABOUT TACKLING THE GENDER PAY GAP IN THESE CITIES, AS PART OF THE INITIATIVE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT BEST PRACTICES, SADIQ KHAN, AND YOU'VE SEEN POSSIBLY NEW ZEALAND JUST RECENTLY HAS TAKEN ON A WHOLE RAFT OF INITIATIVES AND LAWS, ACTUALLY, TO TALK ABOUT PAY EQUITY RATHER THAN EQUAL PAY.

IT BASICALLY MEANS GETTING PAID FOR AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF WORK.

WHAT DO YOU -- WHAT DO YOU TAKE FROM THAT, AND DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO CLOSE THIS -- THIS GAP?

WELL, A POLITICAL FRIEND WAS HERE IN CITY HALL SPEAKING TO YOUNG CHILDREN WITH ACTUALLY JUSTIN TRUDEAU TO INSPIRE AND ENCOURAGE THEM NOT TO BE EMBARRASSED BUT BE PROUD OF BEING FEMINIST, EXPLAINS WHAT IT MEANS TO BE FEMINIST.

ACTUALLY WHAT EMULATED A NUMBER OF POLICIES THAT PROGRESSIVES LIKE JACINTHA ARDEN HAVE BEEN DOING.

WHEN I BECAME MAYOR, I NEVER KNEW WHAT THE PAY OF OUR STAFF WERE.

I PUBLISHED IT AND DISCOVERED LO AND BEHOLD MEN WERE GETTING PAID MORE THAN WOMEN.

IN THE SENIOR POSITIONS IT TENDED TO BE BLOKES DOING JOBS, IN THE JUNIOR POSITION, WOMEN.

WE CHANGED THAT AROUND.

SE SEVEN OF TEN DEPUTY MAYORS IN THAT AREA ARE MAYORS.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO RECOGNIZE, THERE ARE TALENTED WOMEN.

MY MESSAGE IS YOU'RE MIXING WITH THE WRONG PEOPLE AND LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACES.

THAT'S WHY ADDITIONALLY WE SET UP SPONSORSHIP SCHEMES TO MAKE SURE OUR NEWER TALENT WOMEN, SENIOR MANAGEMENT, MIDDLE MANAGEMENT, HAVE THE SUPPORT THEY NEED TO GET THE TOP JOBS.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

I'M A FIRM BELIEVER YOU CAN'T BE IT IF YOU CAN'T SEE IT.

I WAS ALWAYS SO PROUD THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF ONE OF THE GREATEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD IS KAMALA HARRIS, A WOMAN, AND, INDEED, A WOMAN OF COLOR.

OKAY.

THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

LET ME ASK YOU, THEN, MAYOR SHEINBAUM, DO YOU HAVE THE SAME FEELING, THE SAME REACTION TO THE FACT THE NEW VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS NOT JUST A WOMAN BUT A WOMAN OF COLOR?

FIRST TIME EVER.

THAT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

WHAT SHE REPRESENTS.

I MEAN, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR WOMEN ALL OVER THE WORLD BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IT'S IMPORTANT IS AN EXAMPLE IS NOT JUST LAWS AND REGULATIONS, WHICH IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, BUT ALSO THE EXAMPLE OF HAVING A WOMAN ELECTED AS VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR A CHIEF OF GOVERNMENT THAT IS WOMEN.

IN MY CASE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CASE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HALF OF THE CABINET ARE WOMEN, AND THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT AS AN EXAMPLE FOR ALL THIS.

LET ME FINALLY END WITH YOU, MAYOR KHAN.

YOU AND PRESIDENT TRUMP FAMOUSLY SPARRED THROUGHOUT THE FOUR YEARS, AND IT WAS ON THE VALUES ACTUALLY, AND I THINK IT STARTED PERHAPS WITH THE MUSLIM BAN THAT YOU SPOKE UP VERY PROMINENTLY ABOUT, AND I THINK I MIGHT HAVE BEEN A MEDIATOR IN SOME OF THESE OR RATHER THE INTERLOCUTOR IN SOME OF THESE COMMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN FLYING AROUND THE ATLANTIC, SO A LONG WAY OF SAYING THE TRANSITION IS NOW OFFICIALLY UNDER WAY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS APPARENTLY BOWED TO REALITY.

HOW DO YOU SEE THINGS BEING DIFFERENT UNDER A BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

WELL, I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU FOR THOSE WATCHING IN THE USA WE IN THE UK ARE INCREDIBLY EXCITED BY THE ELECTION IN THE U.S. AND THE FACT THAT THERE WILL BE A BIDEN/HARRIS TEAM IN THE WHITE HOUSE, PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN AND VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT HARRIS.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR AMERICANS TO REALIZE THAT MANY OF US AROUND THE WORLD LOVE AMERICA, LOVE AMERICANS AND YOU'RE THE BEACON FOR A WHOLE HOST OF THINGS.

LIBERTY, FREEDOM, HUMAN RIGHTS, EQUALITY AND MANY OF US REVERE YOUR COUNTRY, BUT OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS I'M AFRAID THE TONE THAT YOUR PRESIDENT HAS SET HAS LED TO MANY OF US ASKING CERTAIN QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP, ABOUT WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR.

AND TO SHOW THAT DEMOCRACY WORKS AND TO SHOW WHAT A GREAT COUNTRY AMERICA IS, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN A DIFFERENT PATH OVER THE NEXT AT LEAST FOUR YEARS AND WE'RE REALLY EXCITED THAT YOU'RE GOING TO REJOIN THE CLIMATE AGREEMENT.

EXCITED THAT YOU'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PLAY A PROMINENT ROLE IN THE W.H.O., EXCITED ABOUT THE ROLE YOU'RE GOING TO PLAY IN NATO AND THE UNITED NATIONS, AND, YOU KNOW, FOR THE REST OF US IN LONDON, THE UK, EUROPE, AROUND THE WORLD, WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE BIDEN/HARRIS PRESIDENTSHIP AND WE'RE REALLY EXCITED.

AND I GUESS LASTLY TO YOU THEN, MAYOR SHEINBAUM, MEXICANS HAVE BEEN THE TARGET OF THE CURRENT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, PARTICULARLY AT THE BORDER.

DO YOU HAVE A VIEW AS TO WHETHER THAT WILL CHANGE UNDER A NEW ADMINISTRATION, AND DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD CHANGE?

I MEAN, WE HAVE TO DEFEND THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE U.S., ESPECIALLY MEXICAN PEOPLE.

FOR EXAMPLE, CITIES LIKE LOS ANGELES HAVE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF MEXICANS LIVING THERE.

MY SISTER LIVES THERE.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO DEFEND THE MEXICAN PEOPLE THAT LIVES IN THE U.S. AGAINST ANY DISCRIMINATION AND IN THAT SENSE, THAT'S OUR POLICY.

MAYOR CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM AND MAYOR SADIQ KHAN, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

THANK YOU.

PLEASURE.

> AND JUST A NOTE TO MARK THE PASSING OF ANOTHER MAYOR, DAVID DINKINS.

THE FIRST BLACK MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY.

HE DIED ON MONDAY AT THE AGE OF 93, AND HE SPENT HIS LIFE TRYING TO IMPROVE RACE RELATIONS AND CHAMPION ECONOMIC EQUALITY IN HIS CITY AND BEYOND.

> NOW, CREATING CONVERSATIONS ACROSS BORDERS LIKE MY PREVIOUS GUESTS ARE TRYING TO DO IS HARD ENOUGH, BUT IN THE WILD WEST OF THE INTERNET IT CAN CAN BE EVEN TOUGHER, ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE PERCEIVED MISSTEP CAN SEE SOMEONE CALLED OUT OR CANCELED.

THESE TWO THINGS CAN CLOSE DOWN DIALOGUE WITHOUT REMEDYING THE PROBLEM.

THAT'S THE VIEW OF MY NEXT GUEST.

SMITH COLLEGE VISITING ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR LORETTA J. ROSS.

HERE SHE IS SPEAKING TO OUR MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT TEACHING A CLASS ON EXACTLY THAT SUBJECT.

THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR ROSS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HAD SUCH A LONG AND VARIED CAREER BOTH IN THE ACADEMY AND IN ACTIVISM.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU BROUGHT ALL THAT TOGETHER WITH THIS CHORUS AT SMITH ON CANCEL CULTURE.

WELL, ACTUALLY I HAD A LONGER CAREER IN ACTIVISM THAN I HAD IN ACADEMY.

I'VE ONLY BEEN TEACHING FOR FIVE YEARS BECAUSE I ONLY GRADUATED COLLEGE WHEN I WAS 55.

NICE.

SO I WAS AN ACTIVIST.

I STARTED OUT IN WASHINGTON, D.C., GOING TO HOWARD UNIVERSITY AND BECAME THE THIRD EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE D.C. CRISIS CENTER.

STAYED IN THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

UNTIL 1990 WHEN I BECAME PART OF THE STAFF OF THE NATIONAL ANTI-KLAN NETWORK.

AND THAT'S WHERE I ENCOUNTERED HATE GROUPS FOR THE FIRST TIME AND MY JOB WAS TO MONITOR THEM, FIND OUT ABOUT THEM, BUT MY BOSS WAS REVEREND C.T. VIVIENNE.

HE SAID A LONG TIME AGO WHEN I FIRST CAME, HE SAID, LORETTA, WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE TO -- BE THERE FOR THEM WHEN THEY DO.

THIS, LIKE, STUNNED ME BECAUSE I WASN'T READY TO NOT TAKE THE PLAN.

AND, IN FACT, HE WAS RIGHT.

AND SO WORKING WITH MY RESEARCH DIRECTOR, WE STARTED DOING PROGRAMMING OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE HATE GROUP, LEFT THE NEO-NAZI GROUP, THE KLAN, MILITIAS, THE SKINHEADS, ALL OF THAT.

AND THAT LED ME TO TODAY BECAUSE I THOUGHT IF YOU CAN LEARN HOW TO TALK TO THE KLAN, KLANSMEN, MILITIAS, RACISTS, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TALK TO SOMEBODY THAT MADE A MISTAKE, THAT USED A BLUE JOKE YOU DIDN'T LIKE OR ALL THE THINGS I'M WITNESSING OVER SOCIAL MEDIA, WHERE PEOPLE ARE SO EASY TO TAKE OFFENSE TO THINGS THAT PEOPLE MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW ARE OFFENSIVE, AND THEN THEY WANT TO CANCEL THEM FOR DOING IT.

SO THERE'S A WHOLE CULTURE OF UNFORGIVABILITY LIKE YOU'VE GOT TO GET EVERYTHING PERFECTLY RIGHT WHEN YOU OPEN UP YOUR MOUTH AND HAVE ENOUGH HOPE IF SOMEONE FINDS SOMETHING ON TAPE YOU SAID 20 YEARS AGO BECAUSE YOU CAN GET FIRED FOR IT.

I UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR CLASS IS VERY POPULAR WHICH SPEAKS TO THE FACT THAT THERE'S A YOUNGER FOR FOR A WAY TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

HOW DOES YOUR CLASS WORK?

FIRST OF ALL, ON FIRST DAY OF CLASS I TELL MY CLASS THEY ARE NO TRIGGER WARNINGS IN THIS CLASS.

IF YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO BE UPSET BY ANYTHING YOU OR YOUR CLASSMATES SAY, I REALLY SUGGEST THAT YOU DROP OUT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE FRANK DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ISSUES OF THE DAY, DIFFERENT WAYS WE NEED TO BECOME CIVICALLY MINDED STUDENTS AND PARTICIPANTS IN BUILDING OUR DEMOCRACY THAT ACTUALLY HAS NEVER BEEN BECAUSE WE HAVE TO WORK ON ENSURING EQUALITY AND JUSTICE IS STILL A PROCESS.

MATTER OF FACT, I -- CONTINUING CIVIL WAR OVER WHAT AMERICA WILL BE.

AND SO I DON'T USE TRIGGER WARNINGS.

I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT LEARNING SHOULD BE A HAZING PROCESS.

AND SO I GIVE THEM A TON OF READING THAT I EXPECT THEM TO DO.

I TELL THEM THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE READING FROM BOTH LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE WRITERS BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HAVE A RANGE OF MATERIAL AVAILABLE TO YOU TO MAKE UP YOUR MIND WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

I TELL THEM, DON'T EVEN BELIEVE ME BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO HAVE THAT CRITICAL SKEPTICISM ALL OF YOUR LIFE.

WHAT EFFECT YOU SEEN ON YOUR STUDENTS?

I MEAN, AS YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, CONSERVATIVES HAVE MADE THIS ONE OF THEIR COLLEGES PARTICULARLY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

ONE CONSERVATIVE SENATOR SAID THE OTHER DAY, YOU KNOW, WHO WENT TO PRINCETON, HE SAID I COULDN'T HAVE SURVIVED AT PRINCETON NOW BECAUSE CANCEL CULTURE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED ME, SO OBVIOUSLY CONSERVATIVES ARE VERY, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN SORT OF A CAUSE CELEB AMONG CONSERVATIVES.

FOR YOURSELF AS A SELF-DESCRIBED RADICAL BLACK FEMINIST, WHAT EFFECT ARE YOU SEEING ON YOUR STUDENTS?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, SOME STUDENTS ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET THE PERFECT THOUGHT OUT THERE BEFORE THEY GET POUNCED ON, BUT I DO WANT TO BACK UP A LITTLE BIT AND TALK ABOUT CONSERVATIVES.

WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING IS PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO DEMOCRATIZE FREE SPEECH.

AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVERYBODY WITH A KEYBOARD CAN HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE WORDS THAT YOU SAID, FOR THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE DONE.

AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET IN TROUBLE, STOP SAYING THOSE WORDS, STOP DOING THOSE THINGS AND RUN IN FRONT OF THE BAD STORIES FROM YOUR LIFE.

I MEAN, ALL THAT IS YOURS.

WHEN THE RIGHT-LEANING CONSERVATIVES TALK ABOUT THE CANCEL CULTURE, WE'RE FOISTING IT ON THEM, I SEEM TO RECALL THEM BEING A LITTLE MAD ABOUT 'HARRY POTTER' OR 'THE PASSION OF CHRIST' OR A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS THAT THEY OBJECT TO IN POPULAR CULTURE.

RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO BOYCOTT RAINBOW-COLORED OREO COOKIES.

I MEAN, FOR GOD'S SAKES.

SO IT'S A BIT MUCH FOR THEM TO CLAIM THAT IT'S A PROBLEM OF THE LEFT CANCELING THEM WHEN MOST OF THE CANCELATIONS GO FROM THE RIGHT TO THE LEFT.

NEVERTHELESS, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE START ESTABLISHING WHAT WE CALL DEMOCRATIC SPEECH ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE USE THEIR SPEECH TO WORK TOWARD JUSTICE, FAIRNESS, AND EQUALITY VERSUS SHAME, BLAME, AND CHEAP PUBLICITY WHEN YOU BLOW UP SOMEBODY'S LIFE.

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE, FIRST OF ALL, TEACHING ON OUR CAMPUSES THE PROPER USE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

THAT IT'S AN OBLIGATION FOR GOVERNMENTS NOT TO VIOLATE BUT PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS HAVE TO PRIORITIZE THE SAFETY AND LEARNING ENVIRONMENT OF OUR STUDENTS.

AND SO WE NEED TO TEACH THEM HOW TO USE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

TEACH THEM NOT TO OVERREACT WHEN SOMEONE USES THE WRONG GENDER PRONOUN OR, YOU KNOW, USES AN OUTDATED WORD LIKE RETARDED OR SOMETHING, BUT SHOW THEM THAT THE PEOPLE YOU'RE CRITICIZING ARE AS COMPLICATED AS YOU ARE AND THEY'RE LEARNING JUST LIKE YOU'RE LEARNING.

WE HAVE TO HAVE GRACE AND FORGIVENESS AS WE LIVE IN THIS PLURALISTIC SOCIETY AND WE LEARN THAT EVERYBODY WON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH US TO BE WITH US.

AND SO A DEMOCRATIC SPEECH ENVIRONMENT IS SOMETHING WE'RE TALKING A LOT OF ABOUT ON OUR CAMPUSES RIGHT NOW.

SO THAT WE FURTHER THE GOALS OF DEMOCRACY RATHER THAN USE FREE SPEECH TO BRING DOWN DEMOCRACY WHICH WE ENDURED FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN ISSUES WHERE SCHOLARS, AND I'M THINKING ABOUT SIR CHARLES MURRAY AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, WHO'S RETIRING NOW, MANY PEOPLE, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE OVER TIME WHO FELT HIS SCHOLARSHIP WENT INTO RACIST GREGATIONS OF PEOPLE'S INTELLIGENCE.

HE DENIES THAT, BUT THAT NEVERTHELESS HAS BEEN HIS PERCEPTION.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

RACIALIZED SCIENCE HAS NO PLACE ON MODERN CAMPUSES.

THERE'S A GOOD USE FOR SCIENCE, BUT WE WHO ARE SCIENTISTS, BECAUSE I MAJORED IN CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICS, I WOULDN'T INVITE ANYBODY TO THE CAMPUS THAT BELIEVES THAT THE EARTH IS FLAT AND I'M NOT GOING TO INVITE ANYBODY TO THE CAMPUS WHO BELIEVES THERE'S A RACIAL HIERARCHY THAT DAY USE ALL THIS B BAD SCIENCE TO PROVE SO THEY CAN ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS THE DOMINANT RACE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO ENTERTAIN BIAS ANYMORE, RACIALIZED BIAS ANYMORE.

THAT ERA IS OVER.

IF WE ACTUALLY WANT TO USE LOGIC AND SCIENCE, THAT WE WANT EVERYBODY WHO HAS A PET THEORY ABOUT THE FLAT EARTH TO RUN OUR SCIENCE DEPARTMENTS, GO AT IT, BUT THE QUALITY SCHOOLS AND THE HIGH-CALIBER STUDENTS WE HAVE KNOW NOT TO LET, YOU KNOW, ACADEMIA BE POISONED OR CONTINUE TO BE POISONED BY RACISM, WHITE SUPREMACY AND PARTICULARLY RACIALIZED BIAS.

BUT SOME OF THESE STUDENTS WANT TO HEAR FROM THESE PEOPLE AND YOU HAVE TO ASSUME --

THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO HEAR FROM THEM.

DOES THE COLLEGE HAVE THE OBLIGATION TO ATTACH THE COLLEGE'S NAME TO A FLAT-EARTH THEORY?

THERE'S A FLAT-EARTH SOCIETY OUTSIDE THE CAMPUS.

THEY CAN EASILY JOIN, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO SPEAK IN OUR AUDITORIUMS AND OUR HALLS TO PUSH WHAT WE KNOW IS NOT EVIDENCE-BASED STUFF.

WE WANT EVIDENCE.

THAT'S HOW YOU HAVE A CRITICAL MIND, HOW YOU SEEK AND SUPPORT EVIDENCE, HOW YOU -- YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE'S OPINIONS TO BE PARADED AS FACTS AND THEN TALK TO STUDENTS.

THEN YOU FAILED AS AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION.

PROFESSOR, ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE WHO DESERVE TO BE CANCELED?

I MEAN, IS THERE SOME ELEMENT OF JUSTICE TO IT THAT, PERHAPS, ISN'T AVAILABLE THROUGH OTHER MEANS, LIKE THINGS THAT FALL IN THAT GRAY AREA WHERE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE BEHAVIOR DOESN'T RISE TO A LEVEL OF A LEGAL SANCTION FOR WHATEVER REASON, BUT, YOU KNOW, SOCIAL SANCTION IS WARRANTED?

ANYBODY DESERVE TO BE CANCELED, IN YOUR VIEW?

YEAH, OF COURSE THERE'S MESSED UP PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AND PEOPLE I'D RATHER NOT HAVE IN MY COMPANY OR IN MY SCHOOL OR IN MY CHURCH OR WHATEVER, BUT THAT'S NOT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE.

MOST CANCELATIONS ARE DONE HORIZONTALLY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE SAME POWER YOU HAVE, ARE NOT CRIMINALS TRYING TO REALLY GO OUT AND HURT PEOPLE.

THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO BE THEMSELVES.

AND SO, YES, SOME PEOPLE PROBABLY NEED A DIFFERENT SOLUTION THAN A WONDERFUL -- DID YOU READ WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THAT OR, I BEG YOUR PARDON, THAT DIDN'T LAND ON ME TOO WELL.

I MEAN, WE CAN USE SENTENCES OF INVITATION TO ASK PEOPLE TO TELL US MORE INSTEAD OF ASSUMING THE WORST ABOUT THEM AND GOING INTO A QUICK CANCELATION.

BUT, YES, OF COURSE, WE HAVE MISCREANTS THAT DO HARM TO PEOPLE.

REAL PHYSICAL CRIMINAL HARM TO PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF APPROPRIATELY.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN THE CANCEL CULTURE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE REALLY PUNISHING PEOPLE OFTEN FOR WHAT THEY THINK, WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE, WHAT THEY SAY AND REALLY NOT SHOWING ANY KIND OF CONTEXT OR NUANCE OR MAKING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY BUT DOING IT WITH ANGER AND PUNISHMENT INSTEAD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THE WORD OF THE USE, 'SAFETY,' AS A WAY TO INITIATE CANCELATION OF PEOPLE?

BECAUSE WHAT YOU HEAR TODAY IS PEOPLE WILL SAY, THIS PERSON'S WORDS MAKE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

AND WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?

WELL, AS PART OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE ANTI-VIOLENCE MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY, I THINK WE STARTED THAT MESS BECAUSE WE OVERPROMISED PEOPLE WHO HAD EXPERIENCED SEXUAL AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SAFETY BECAUSE WE WANTED TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO TELL THEIR STORIES OFTEN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES AND WE WOULD HOLD THEIR STORIES IN A SAFE SPACE.

SINCE THE 1970s, NOW SAFETY CAN BE ATTACHED TO JUST NEAR DISCOMFORT.

I DON'T LIKE THAT WORD YOU USED, YOU MADE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

I DON'T LIKE THE FACT YOU GOT MY PRONOUN WRONG, YOU MAKE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

OH, I DON'T LIKE THAT YOU'RE EATING MEAT IN MY PRESENCE, YOU MAKE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

IT'S COME TO A LUDICROUS LEVEL.

AND TO WHERE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE'RE GROWING UP EXPECTING THE WORLD TO CATER TO OUR HIGHLY INDIVIDUALIZED NEEDS FOR SAFETY AND IN A WAY WE'RE NOT DEVELOPING STAMINA OR RESILIENCE TO DEAL WITH THE WORLD AS IT IS INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE IT THE WAY WE'LL BE MOST COMFORTABLE AND SAFE.

EXCEPT IT DOES BEGIN WITH WORDS.

I'M THINKING OF MOST VIOLENCE DOES BEGIN -- PARTICULARLY BEGINS WITH WORDS.

IN FACT, INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE OFTEN BEGINS WITH WORDS.

WI DON'T THINK YOU HEARD ME SAY ANYTHING THAT WORDS DON'T HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

I THINK WORDS WOUND.

SO I'M NOT A PERSON IN -- THAT I BELIEVE THAT ALL WORDS DON'T HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

I THINK WORDS HAVE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE SHOULD BE MADE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY, BUT I'M STILL SAYING IT CAN BE DONE WITH RESPECT TO LOVE INSTEAD OF PUNISHMENT.

IN MOST INSTANCES, YES, IF YOU'RE CALLING FOR THE MASSACRE OF PEOPLE, IF YOU'RE CALLING FOR THE EXCOMMUNICATION OF PEOPLE OR SOMEONE LOSES THEIR JOB BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LIKE THEIR OPINION, YOU HAVE TO RETHINK THAT OUT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR WORDS JUST LIKE YOU EXPECT THEM TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR WORDS.

WE ARE IN A STRUGGLE TO PROTECT THIS DEMOCRACY THAT'S STILL EMERGING.

WE ARE IN A FIGHT OF OUR LIVES.

WE'RE IN THE GREATEST HUMAN RIGHTS STRUGGLE RIGHT NOW THERE'S EVER BEEN, SO WORDS DO HAVE CONSEQUENCES, WHETHER YOU'RE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS OR WHETHER YOU'RE AGAINST THEM.

WHETHER YOU BELIEVE PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY NEED TO SAY, WHICH I DO, BUT I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY, WHICH I ALSO DO.

AND WHAT ARE PEOPLE WHO TRULY HAVE BEEN HARMED BY OTHERS' BEHAVIOR, WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO GIVE FULL HONOR TO YOUR OWN STORY, BUT YOU, YOURSELF, HAVE BEEN A SURVIVOR OF GREAT HARM, OF GREAT TRANSGRESSION.

YOU ARE A SURVIVOR OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE, INCEST, AND THANKFULLY HAVE LIVED TO LIVE AND THRIVE AND, YET, YOU KNOW, A GREAT HARM HAS BEEN DONE TO YOU AND TO MANY OTHER PEOPLE.

DO YOU HAVE THOUGHTS ABOUT HOW, AND IN PART NOW PART OF WHAT'S OCCURRING IS PEOPLE ARE SEEKING REDRESS FOR GREAT HARMS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE TO THEM.

SOMETIMES IN WAYS THAT OTHER PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH BUT NEVERTHELESS, HARMS HAVE BEEN DONE.

AND I JUST WONDERED IF YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT.

WELL, HURT PEOPLE DO HURT PEOPLE.

SO A LOT OF WHAT WE SEE AS HARM IS SEEN THROUGH A TRAUMA-INFORMED LENS.

I'M, OF COURSE, A RAPE AND INCEST SURVIVOR.

NOT ONLY DID I SUFFER INCEST AT THE HANDS OF MY COUSIN, BUT I ENDED UP PARENTING HIS CHILD FOR 47 YEARS.

BEING A CO-PARENT WITH YOUR OWN RAPIST IS NOT THE WAY YOU WANT TO BECOME A MOTHER.

SO I DID OVERREACT SOMETIMES EVERY TIME I FEEL THAT SOMEONE IS TRYING TO DOMINATE ME OR INTIMIDATE ME OR SHUT ME DOWN OR MAKE ME FEEL AS HELPLESS AS I WAS AT 14.

OR I CAN PUT THOSE EMOTIONS OF THAT 14-YEAR-OLD BACK BEHIND THAT GLASS WALL OF MEMORY AND SEPARATE IT FROM THE PRESENT.

I CAN DO THAT, ACTUALLY, WITH THERAPY, THAT'S HOW I LEARNED HOW TO DO IT.

IT WASN'T AUTOMATIC.

BUT I REALLY DO THINK THAT WE DON'T HEAL IF WE WON'T ALLOW OURSELVES TO HEAL.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BUILT SUCH A HARDENED IDENTITY AROUND BEING A VICTIM, THEY DON'T WANT TO LET IT GO AT ANY COST.

AND I REALLY WANT TO ASK THEM HOW WELL THAT'S WORKING FOR THEM BECAUSE A VICTIM BY DEFINITION IS A TOTALLY DISEMPOWERED POSITION TO BE IN.

SO YOU'RE GIVING AWAY YOUR OWN POWER BECAUSE YOU -- YOU KNOW, YOU CONSOLE YOURSELF BY SAYING, I'M A VICTIM AND EVERYTHING THAT I DISLIKE REVICTIMIZES ME.

HOW THAT WORKS FOR PEOPLE.

SO I REALLY TRY TO SAY THAT WE CAN BE MORE FORGIVING TO EACH OTHER.

EVEN AS A RAPE SURVIVOR, I TAUGHT THIS THEORY TO BLACK MEN IN PRISONS WHO HAVE RAPED AND MURDERED WOMEN AND THAT'S WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s.

SO I'M ALWAYS GOING TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHY DID WE HAVE BETTER FORGIVENESS PRACTICES IN THE 1970s THAN I'VE SEEN IN THE 21st CENTURY?

PROFESSOR LORETTA ROSS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

I DO HOPE TO TALK AGAIN.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

SO DO I.

WHAT AN AMAZING WOMAN AND TEACHER.

> AND FINALLY, WE HAVE BEEN HEARING TONIGHT HOW CORONAVIRUS DISPROPORTIONATELY THREATENS THE LIVES AND THE LIVELIHOODS OF WOMEN, BUT DESPITE THE PANDEMIC, WOMEN ARE STILL REACHING NEW HEIGHTS, OF COURSE, PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN HAS NAMED AMERICA'S FIRST FEMALE TREASURY SECRETARY, JANET YELLEN, WHO'S IN CHARGE OF THE NATION'S PURSESTRINGS.

GERMANY, EUROPE'S LARGEST ECONOMY, IS INTRODUCING MANDATORY QUOTAS THAT WILL REQUIRE COMPANIES TO PUT WOMEN EXECUTIVES ON THEIR BOARDS.

THE FORMER SOVIET REPUBLIC OF M MALDOVA ELECTED ITS FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT.

IN THE UK, OXFORD UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR, SARAH GILBERT, LEADING THE TEAM THAT CREATED THE LATEST COVID VACCINE WITH ASTRAZENECA.

ALL OF THIS IN A DAY'S WORK.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.