Moderna’s Noubar Afeyan Explains Vaccine Distribution Plans

> WHILE COVID RAVAGES IRAN AS WELL, IT IS UNLIKELY TO RECEIVE A VACCINE ANY TIME SOON.

TERRIBLE RECORDS ARE ALSO BEING SET IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE LARGEST VACCINE ROLLOUT IN ITS HISTORY IS NOW, OF COURSE, UNDER WAY.

VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE GOT HIS SHOT TODAY IN A PUBLIC WHITE HOUSE EVENT, WITH ONE CLEAR MESSAGE, AND THAT IS, SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.

AND NOW A SECOND VACCINE IS ENDORSED AND AWAITING APPROVAL BY THE FDA.

THE MODERNA COFOUNDER SPEAKS TO OUR WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE VACCINE AND THE CHALLENGES AHEAD.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, AND THANK YOU AND CONGRATULATIONS.

TODAY, AS WE SPEAK, THE FDA IS APPROVING YOUR COMPANY'S VACCINE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

IT IS A VERY SPECIAL MOMENT FOR MODERNA AND THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WORKING INTERNALLY AND THROUGHOUT THE RELATIONSHIPS TO GET TO THIS POINT.

HOW MANY DOSES ARE GOING TO BE DISTRIBUTED IN THE NEXT MONTH AND THE NEXT TWO MONTHS?

NEXT WEEK, 6 MILLION DOSES OR SO READY TO BE SHIPPED OUT.

IN DECEMBER, WE'RE AIMING FOR 20 MILLION DOSES.

THEN IT WILL BE RAMPED UP FROM THERE TO 30 MILLION IN JANUARY.

THEN GETTING -- BY THE END OF MARCH, WE EXPECT THEY'LL SHIP ANOTHER 100 MILLION DOSES.

THAT'S THE FIRST 100 MILLION WHICH THE U.S. HAS COMMITTED TO.

WHAT'S THE NEXT OPTION FOR THE U.S. TO GET 100 MILLION?

THAT WILL CONTINUE INTO THE SECOND QUARTER.

AND WE HAVE, AS HAS BEEN DISCLOSED RECENTLY, WE HAVE RECEIVED THE EXERCISE NOTICE BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT OF THE SECOND 100 MILLION-DOSE ORDER.

ACCORDING TO THE ORIGINAL RELATIONSHIP WE SET UP, THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT HAS THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE UP TO 500 MILLION DOSES OF OUR OUTPUT.

AND SO FAR, WE'VE RECEIVED 200 MILLION, AND WE'LL BE GEARING UP TO PRODUCE AND SHIP THOSE.

DO YOU THINK IT WILL GET TO 500 MILLION IN THE U.S. THIS YEAR, COMING YEAR?

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.

I CAN'T SPECULATE, BECAUSE IT DEPENDS SO MUCH ON RATE OF UPTAKE, ON AVAILABILITY OF OTHER VACCINES, AND THINGS WELL BEYOND OUR CONTROL.

BUT WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS TO AGREE TO SECURE THE AVAILABILITY, AND AS TIME GOES ON WE'LL LEARN ABOUT WHETHER THOSE OPTIONS ARE, IN FACT, TAKEN.

OR FULFILLED ELSEWHERE.

THE NEWS THIS MORNING THAT'S SOMEWHAT DISCONCERTING INVOLVES THE OTHER APPROVED VACCINE, THE BIONTECH-PFIZER ONE, THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, GOVERNORS SAYING THEY AREN'T GETTING THE AMOUNTS THEY EXPECTED, THINGS AREN'T WORKING.

HOW CLOSELY ARE YOU WORKING WITH THE DISTRIBUTION PEOPLE AT 'WARP SPEED,' AND ARE YOU WORRIED, CONCERNED, ABOUT THIS SORT OF MESS-UP, IT SEEMS, OF DID?

WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T -- AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, I DON'T HAVE DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF ACTUALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THAT TOPIC, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT'S QUITE SPECIFIC TO THE PRODUCER AND THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM THAT THEY HAVE PUT IN PLACE, WHICH IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN OURS.

AS YOU MAY REMEMBER, IN OUR CASE, THE GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISTRIBUTION OF OUR VACCINE.

AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF PLANNING THAT'S GONE INTO PLACE.

EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN SO FAR WITH THE SYSTEM THAT'S BEEN PUT IN PLACE BY GENERAL PARTA AND HIS PEOPLE IS TOP-CLASS PERFORMANCE.

OF COURSE WE HAVE SOME DEGREE OF ANTICIPATION AS WE HOPE OUR VACCINE STARTS GETTING SHIPPED THAT WE NOT RUN INTO ANY UNPREDICTABLE SITUATIONS, BUT I CAN'T COMMENT ON THE EXACT SPECIFICS OF WHAT MAY BE HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW, THIS TYPE OF UNDERTAKING IS SO UNPRECEDENTED IN TERMS OF THIS VOLUME OVERNIGHT OF DISTRIBUTING VACCINES TO EVERY STATE, TO EVERY CORNER OF THIS COUNTRY, THAT ONE CAN EXPECT SOME INITIAL, I'M SURE, BUMPS IN THE ROAD, WHICH I HOPE WILL BE ADDRESSED, AND I'M SURE WILL BE ADDRESSED QUICKLY ON THE SIDE OF OUR COLLEAGUES AT PFIZER.

THIS IS A WELL-ESTABLISHED COMPANY WHICH HAS VAST RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS ANY OBSTACLE.

SO I'M OPTIMISTIC ON THEIR BEHALF, AND I'M HOPEFUL ON OURS.

THERE ARE 310,000 PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES WHO HAVE DIED.

WE'RE LOSING ABOUT 3,500 A DAY AT THIS MOMENT.

HOW MUCH PRESSURE DO YOU FEEL IN SUCH AN URGENT SITUATION TO MAKE SURE THIS COMES OUT RIGHT?

YOU KNOW, WALTER, THOSE NUMBERS ARE SUPER MEANINGFUL TO ALL OF US, INCLUDING IN MY CASE WHERE I'VE HAD THE DISEASE.

IN FACT, FATALLY, A MEMBER OF MY FAMILY.

SO I DON'T NEED TO FEEL IT ANYMORE, I HAVE A SATURATING AMOUNT OF FOCUS ON MAKING SURE WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE PRODUCTION OF SOMETHING THAT I'LL CALL HIGH-TECH IN THE CONTEXT OF MEDICINE, AS OPPOSED TO THE PILLS WE DID SOMETIMES THAT REALLY DO RELY ON VERY DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGIES, I THINK WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THERE'S ONLY THAT MUCH WE CAN DO.

THE PRESSURE IS, WAS HIGH, IS HIGH.

I'M NOT SURE IT CAN GET A LOT HIGHER, BECAUSE WE JUST HAVE TO KIND OF BE ABLE TO CONSIDER IT A FUNCTION AND DELIVER.

I'M QUITE CONFIDENT THAT THE TEAM AT MODERNA, LED BY A VERY, VERY CAPABLE LEADER WHO'S BEEN IN THE PHARMA BUSINESS FOR DECADES, THAT WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN.

YOU'VE MADE A LOT OF IMPROVEMENTS IN THE PARTICLES AND THE WAY IT CAN BE STORED OVER THE YEARS.

HOW MUCH OF THAT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND THE PATENTS ARE YOU SHARING WITH OTHERS AND WHAT'S YOUR POLICY ON THAT?

IN FACT, MODERNA HAD STARTED GOING DOWN THIS PATH 10 YEARS AGO, HAS AMASSED QUITE A SUBSTANTIAL INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY POSITION, AS WELL AS SECURING ACCESS TO ANY OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE IN THIS VAST SPACE.

AS WE APPROACHED THE COMMERCIAL STAGE, THINKING ABOUT THE NEXT TWO, THREE YEARS IS WHEN WE WOULD HAVE NORMALLY REACHED THAT, WE CERTAINLY LOOKED AT OUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WITH A VIEW TOWARDS ENSURING THAT OUR SHAREHOLDERS WHO INVESTED IN THIS ARE BENEFICIARIES OF THAT.

BUT WITH THE COVID SITUATION, WE REALIZED THAT THE WORLD NEEDED MULTIPLE VACCINES, MULTIPLE SIMILAR VACCINES, FOR THAT MATTER.

SO A FEW MONTHS AGO, WE TOOK THE DECISION AND ANNOUNCED THAT THE PATENTS THAT MAY COVER OTHER COVID VACCINES THAT ARE USING SIMILAR OR THE SAME TECHNOLOGY, WE WOULD NOT -- CHOOSE NOT TO ENFORCE DURING THE PANDEMIC SO THAT WE WOULD ENABLE OTHERS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE VACCINES FREE AND CLEAR FROM CONCERN OVER THAT.

AND THIS WAS PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED.

AND WE EVEN OFFERED LONGER-TERM LICENSES TO FOLKS FOR COVID-19 VACCINES, SHOULD THEY WISH TO TAKE THEM, EVEN BEYOND THE PANDEMIC.

WHEN THE FDA PANEL LOOKED AT THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, THEY WORRIED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT NOT USING IT ON CHILDREN, PEOPLE WITH ALLERGIES, PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE PREGNANT, AND WORRIED TOO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT BELL'S PALSY.

TELL ME ABOUT THE CONCERNS PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE WITH THIS VACCINE.

EVEN WITH A TRIAL OF 30,000 SUBJECTS, THERE ARE OBSERVATIONS THAT IF WE GO UP TO 30 MILLION SUBJECTS MAY REVEAL THEMSELVES THAT WE'RE NOT FULLY AWARE OF OR FULLY CHARACTERIZED.

IN THE 30,000 SUBJECT TRIAL THAT WE'VE DONE, THE PHASE 3 TRIAL, WE HAVE OBSERVED AND REPORTED ON FOUR BELL'S PALSY SITUATIONS.

ONE WAS IN THE PLACEBO, THREE IN THE VACCINE.

THIS IS A REACTION SEEN IN MANY OTHER VACCINES AS WELL.

IT IS A SERIOUS BUT REVERSIBLE CONDITION, OFTEN, AND IN THESE CASES IT WAS.

WHAT IT TELLS US -- AND THERE WERE OTHER OBSERVATIONS AS WELL.

WHAT IT TELLS US IS THAT WE NEED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THAT AND MONITOR IT, LIKE WE DO WITH OTHER VACCINES.

AND MORE BROADLY, WITH CHILDREN, I THINK THE SAFE APPROACH IS TO GIVE US A BIT OF TIME TO TEST IN A TRIAL THAT WE'VE ALREADY ANNOUNCED THE 12 TO 18-YEAR-OLD REGIME, AND THEN 6 MONTH TO 12-YEAR-OLDS, WHICH IS COMING EARLY NEXT YEAR.

SO WE WANT TO GENERATE DATA TO ARM THESE DECISIONS.

I THINK THE CONCERN IS RATHER ABOUT THE LACK OF DATA, NOT A PARTICULAR CONCERN THAT IS RELATED TO THE VACCINE OR A MECHANISM OR THE DISEASE.

IT'S SIMPLY THAT WE JUST HAVEN'T HAD THE ABILITY TO GENERATE EVEN MORE DATA, EVEN MORE SUBGROUPS, TO FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH A BROADER USE OF THE VACCINE.

VICE PRESIDENT PENCE GOT HIS VACCINE TODAY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT SAID IF OR WHEN HE WILL DO IT.

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT MIXED MESSAGES COMING OUT?

I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE NOT JUDGE EVERYTHING AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN TIME.

BUT SEQUENTIALLY, SO OVER THE NEXT DAYS, OVER THE NEXT WEEKS, I THINK THAT MANY OF THE LEADERSHIP, IF NOT MOST, IF NOT ALL, SHOULD CONSIDER AS PART OF THEIR LEADERSHIP MANDATE, TO CONSIDER WHETHER TO TAKE THE VACCINE AND TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN WAYS HOW THEY'VE MADE THAT CHOICE.

SAME WITH THE HEALTH CARE PROFESSION, SAME WITH THE LEADERSHIP IN CORPORATIONS AND NONPROFITS, ET CETERA, CLERGY.

I THINK THAT SOCIETY WILL BE LOOKING FOR ALL OF US IN SOME WAY TO BE TRANSPARENT WITH OUR DECISION PROCESS.

AND SO I KNOW MANY OF THE FORMER PRESIDENTS HAVE INDICATED READINESS.

I LOOK FORWARD TO EVERYBODY WEIGHING THE SCIENCE, FOLLOWING THE GUIDANCE THAT THE LIKES OF DR. FAUCI AND OTHERS HAVE CLEARLY LAID OUT, AND THE FDA, AND TO ACT ACCORDINGLY.

BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE OF NOT TAKING THE VACCINE IS NOT THAT THE VIRUS IS GOING TO SOMEHOW GO AWAY.

THE VIRUS WILL PERSIST, AND WE NEED TO ACT IN A WAY THAT WE BALANCE AND WEIGH THE PROS AND CONS OF NOT TAKING A VACCINE VERSUS TAKING ONE.

WITH THE INCOMING BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY HAD CONTACT WITH THEM AS OF YET.

I KNOW THAT FOLKS WITHIN MODERNA, WE HAVE AN ACTIVE GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS GROUP THAT HAVE HAD TOUCH POINTS.

WE'VE KEPT THEM BRIEFED THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS, MAKING SURE THAT THEY HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION THEY NEED, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THEM AND WITH ALL THE STATES AND EVERYBODY WHO'S NOW FEELING THE RESPONSIBILITY OF SAFELY DISTRIBUTING THE VACCINE AND MAKING SURE TO PREVENT INFECTION.

OF THE VACCINES ROLLING OUT, THREE-QUARTERS OF THEM SEEM TO BE DEDICATED TO WHAT I WOULD CALL THE RICH COUNTRIES.

WHAT'S GOING TO BE DONE TO HELP THE POORER COUNTRIES TO MAKE SURE THIS DOESN'T REMAIN A GLOBAL PANDEMIC?

I FORESEE TWO DIFFERENT APPROACHES.

ONE OF THEM IS THAT THERE ARE INTERNATIONAL BODIES SUCH AS COVAX THAT HAVE BEEN SET UP TO AGGREGATE PURCHASE ON BEHALF OF MIDDLE TO LOWER-INCOME COUNTRIES ADEQUATE SUPPLIES AND FAIRLY DISTRIBUTE THEM.

OF COURSE, THEIRS IS AN UNENVIABLE ROLE, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 100-PLUS COUNTRIES, EACH WITH THEIR OWN LAWS, THEIR OWN PREFERENCES.

SO THEY'RE UNDERTAKING A TRULY IMPRESSIVE AND IMPORTANT EFFORT.

NOW THEY IN TURN ARE WORKING WITH SUPPLIERS, INCLUDING MODERNA, TO ENSURE SUPPLIES, ADEQUATE SUPPLIES, TIMELY SUPPLIES.

OF COURSE, EACH ONE OF OUR VACCINES IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

STORAGE, PERFORMANCE, COST, ET CETERA.

AND EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT FROM A COST STANDPOINT, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE MAKE THE VACCINE AVAILABLE, PARTICULARLY TO LOWER AND MIDDLE-INCOME COUNTRIES IN A WAY THAT CAN BE AFFORDED GLOBALLY.

AND THOSE DISCUSSIONS ARE ACTIVELY UNDER WAY, AND I'M SURE IT WILL LEAD TO ACCESS FROM ALL OF THE VACCINE SUPPLIERS IN TIME.

AND WE HOPE IT GOES FASTER, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

PRESIDENT LARRY BACOW OF HARVARD USED YOUR NAME IN A LETTER HE JUST SENT TO PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION.

AND HE POINTED OUT THAT 50% OF THE Ph.Ds IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW IN SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING ARE FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN OVERSEAS.

AND THAT ONE-THIRD OF THE U.S.

NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS IN SCIENCE ARE PEOPLE COME FROM OVERSEAS.

AND THAT WE THUS NEED TO GET BACK TO AN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME HERE AND STUDY AND THEN STAY, AS OPPOSED TO BEING SENT OUT.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT BEING PART OF THAT LETTER, OR MENTIONED IN THAT LETTER, AND ABOUT U.S.

IMMIGRATION POLICY WHEN IT COMES TO SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING STUDENTS?

WELL, OBVIOUSLY I WAS SURPRISED AT THE MENTION PRESIDENT BACOW MADE, AND HONORED TO SOME EXTENT THAT HE USED MY EXAMPLE TO DEMONSTRATE THE POINT THAT IF WE CONTINUE DOWN A PATH WHERE WE EXCLUDE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY EXPECT TO CONTRIBUTE, BUT ALSO BENEFIT FROM THE OPPORTUNITIES WE PRESENT, THAT WE MAY NOT HAVE MANY INNOVATIONS IN ANY FIELD.

NOT JUST IN SCIENCE -- THAT WE NOW BENEFIT FROM.

I FELT A LITTLE BIT OF AN EXTRA BURDEN I HAVE TO CARRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT CONTINUES TO BE THE CASE.

BUT THE POINT IS A VALID ONE.

AND I MUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, AMERICANS WHO COME FROM OUTSIDE ONLY FEEL LIKE IMMIGRANTS WHEN THEY'RE MADE TO FEEL LIKE IMMIGRANTS.

I THINK ALL OF US WOULD RATHER FEEL LIKE AMERICANS.

WE ABSOLUTELY WANT TO BE CONSIDERED AND ACT AS THIS IS OUR COUNTRY, AND WE ALL HAVE ONE COMMON MISSION TO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES.

I DO THINK THAT THE TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION IS WHAT'S CAUSED A LOT OF US TO FEEL LIKE, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, THAT'S ME THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT 35 YEARS AGO.

AND I LOOK FORWARD TO THE TIME WHEN I CAN FEEL, AS AN IMMIGRANT, I MEAN, AS AN AMERICAN AGAIN, AND NOT JUST AS AN IMMIGRANT.

WHAT'S NEXT FOR MESSENGER RNA VACCINES, WHICH MODERNA HAS PIONEERED?

AND WHAT'S NEXT FOR MODERNA?

WELL, 12 MONTHS AGO, AS WE WERE WRAPPING UP 2019, WE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO A GLORIOUS YEAR OF VACCINE DEVELOPMENT AT MODERNA WHICH HAD EVERYTHING BUT COVID ON ITS LIST.

WE HAD SOME 10 DIFFERENT VACCINES WE ALREADY WERE WORKING ON.

WE CONTINUE TO MOVE THOSE FORWARD.

BUT OF COURSE, GIVEN THE UNEXPECTED PROOF POINT THAT THE COVID-19 VACCINE HAS REPRESENTED, WE NOW LOOK FORWARD TO INTENSIFYING AND EXPANDING OUR EFFORTS, INCLUDING IN A QUITE SIGNIFICANT WAY IN THE AREA OF INFLUENZA.

I DO THINK THAT IN INFLUENZA, WE GENERALLY COLLECTIVELY NOT LOOK TO ATTACK IT MORE STRONGLY FEARING THAT THERE'S ALREADY VACCINES AND MAYBE WE CAN'T DO ANY BETTER.

I THINK IT BEHOOVES US TO ASSUME WE CAN DO BETTER THAN WHAT'S OUT THERE IN GENERAL AND FAIL TRYING.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'LL DO WITH MANY DIFFERENT VIRUSES, INFLUENZA BEING AMONG THEM.

WE'VE WORKED IN THE PAST ON HIV.

THAT'S AN AREA WE MAY CERTAINLY STUDY FURTHER WITH COLLABORATORS.

I SHOULD MENTION PARENTHETICALLY THAT ONE OF OUR KEY AREAS OF VACCINE FOCUS IS CANCER.

BECAUSE IF WE COULD TRAIN THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO DETECT THE VULNERABILITIES OF A PATIENT'S UNIQUE SIGNATURE OF MUTATION, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO GO AFTER CANCER.

AND THERE'S CERTAINLY EARLY INDICATIONS OF THAT.

SO BOTTOM LINE, I THINK THE MESSENGER RNA MOLECULE APPLIED BROADLY, AND SEE WHERE THE DATA TAKES US.

WHERE DATA SUGGESTS WE WILL HAVE AN EFFECT, WE WILL PURSUE IT.

DR. NOUBAR AFEYAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND THANK YOU IN WHAT YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO IN ROLLING OUT A VACCINE.

THANK YOU, WALTER.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME AGAIN.