January 13, 2021

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

LIZ CHENEY, JOHN KATKO, ADAM KINZINGER AND OTHER REPUBLICANS WHOM I HAVE TALKED TO WITHIN THE LAST 24 HOURS BELIEVE IN ACTION IS REQUIRED.

FAST AND FURIOUS, EVEN REPUBLICANS WILL VOTE TO IMPEACH DONALD TRUMP THIS TIME FOR INCITING INSURRECTION AT HOME.

DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN ELISSA SLOTKIN OF MICHIGAN JOINS ME.

THEN --

MY NAME IS CAPTAIN JEFFERSON KYLE KID AND I'M HERE TO READ THE NEWS FROM ACROSS THIS GREAT WORLD OF OURS.

DIRECTOR PAUL GREENGRASS.

I'M SPEAK TO HIM ABOUT THE ROVING STORY TELLER.

THESE COMPANIES ARE CO-CONSPIRATORS.

THEY ARE ENABLERS OF AN INSURRECTION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

A RECKONING FOR THE PRESIDENT.

BUT ROGER McNAMEE SAYS WHY THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS THAT ENABLED HIM MUST FACE A RECKONING TOO.

> 'AMANPOUR & CO.' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

NO PRESIDENT IN THE 243-YEAR HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC HAS BEEN IMPEACHED TWICE UNTIL DONALD J.

TRUMP.

AS DEMOCRATS AND SOME REPUBLICANS SEEK TO OUST HIM FROM OFFICE AND PREVENT HIM FROM RUNNING AGAIN.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN CHARGED BY CONGRESS WITH INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION AFTER ONE WEEK AGO TELLING HIS MOB TO MARCH ON THE CAPITOL AND, QUOTE, FIGHT LIKE HELL AGAINST THE ELECTION RESULTS.

A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS ARE CROSSING THE AISLE TO JOIN THEIR DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES IN VOTING AGAINST HIM THIS TIME.

CHIEF AMONGST THEM IS LIZ CHENEY.

SHE IS THE THIRD MOST SENIOR REPUBLICAN IN THE HOUSE.

LET US HEAR NOW FROM SPEAKER PELOSI AS SHE MADE HER ARGUMENT FOR IMPEACHMENT.

THOSE INSURRECTIONISTS WERE NOT PATRIOTS.

THEY WERE NOT PART OF A POLITICAL BASE TO BE CATERED TO AND MANAGED.

THEY WERE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS, AND JUSTICE MUST PREVAIL.

BUT THEY DID NOT APPEAR OUT OF A VACUUM.

SENT HERE BY THE PRESIDENT WITH WORDS SUCH AS A CRY TO FIGHT LIKE HELL.

WORDS MATTER.

TRUTH MATTERS.

ACCOUNTABILITY MATTERS.

AND THOSE WORDS HAVE OBVIOUSLY PROFOUNDLY SHAKEN THE CONGRESS AND EVERYONE WHO'S BEEN WATCHING THIS.

DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN ALYSSA SLOTKIN OF MICHIGAN SAYS THE PRESIDENT BROKE HIS OATH TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION AND IS A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

SHE IS JOINING ME FROM THE CAPITOL.

CONGRESSWOMAN, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

AN EXTRAORDINARY, EXTRAORDINARY DAY.

LET ME ASK YOU FOR YOUR REACTION.

YOU WERE THERE, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN THIS HAPPENED A WEEK AGO.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED.

SURE.

SO I WAS MAKING MY WAY ACTUALLY TO THE CAPITOL FROM ONE OF OUR OFFICE BUILDINGS THROUGH ONE OF THE UNDERGROUND TUNNELS.

AS I APPROACHED THE FINAL STAIRCASE TO DO JUST SORT OF THE ONE FLIGHT UP TO THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE, I MEAN IT WAS THE FIRST OR SECOND STEP AND I HEARD SCREAMING AND YELLING AND BREAKING GLASS.

I HEARD WHAT I THOUGHT WAS A FLASH BANG, WHICH IS A CROWD CONTROL MEASURE.

I THINK IN THE END IT WAS PROBABLY THE GUNSHOT THAT KILLED THE WOMAN WHO WAS KILLED IN THE CAPITOL.

AND I HEARD THAT AND IMMEDIATELY CLICKED INTO A DIFFERENT PERIOD IN MY LIFE WHEN I DID THREE TOURS IN IRAQ ALONGSIDE THE MILITARY.

YOUR TRAINING IS LITERALLY GET OFF THE X, GET OFF THE BULL'S-EYE.

I TURNED AROUND, WENT BACK TO MY OFFICE, LOCKED MYSELF IN THERE.

I FELLOW CONGRESSMAN TOLD ME I CAN'T GET OUT.

SO I SPENT THE REST OF THE AFTERNOON WITH SENIOR MILITARY LEADERS ENSURING THAT WE UNDERSTOOD WE NEEDED A HEAVIER NATIONAL GUARD PRESENCE, THAT WE HAD LOST CONTROL OF THE SITUATION AND DIDN'T HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY ON MANY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS SECOND IMPEACHMENT, YOU ALSO CALLED THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS.

YOU WANTED A LOT MORE MILITARY, A LOT MORE SECURITY TO HELP YOU.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IN THE WEEK THAT YOU'VE BEEN TRYING TO DO I GUESS AN AFTER ACTION REPORT ON ALL OF THIS, WHAT WAS THE MAIN REASON WHY THERE WASN'T NATIONAL GUARD SENT IN OR WHY THERE WAS SUCH A CATASTROPHIC COLLAPSE OF SECURITY AND THE BLUE LINE, SO TO SPEAK.

YEAH.

WELL, THERE WILL BE A PROPER AFTER ACTION.

I WANT TO SAY I BELIEVE IN THOROUGH REVIEW AND NOT MAKING SNAP JUDGMENTS.

WHAT WAS VERY, VERY CLEAR TO ME JUST BASED ON MY BACKGROUND IS, NUMBER ONE, THE CAPITOL POLICE UNDERESTIMATED THE THREAT THAT WAS COMING, AND THE THREAT THAT IT POSED TO THE ACTUAL BUILDING.

THEY WERE PREPARED FOR SOMETHING OUTSIDE, THEY WERE NOT PREPARED FOR SOMETHING TO COME INSIDE.

AND THAT MEANS THEY WEREN'T PREPARED FOR THE PROTESTERS AND THE RIOTERS THAT DAY.

THEY ALSO DID NOT APPEAR PREPARED, FOR INSTANCE, THREE YEARS AGO IF WE HAD HAD AN AL QAEDA INFILTRATION OR AN OUTSIDE GROUP THAT TRIED TO MAKE IT INSIDE THE CAPITOL.

THERE WAS NO PLAN FOR CONTINUATION OF OPERATIONS OR CONTINUITY OF THE GOVERNMENT INSIDE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

CLEARLY THE MAYOR OF D.C. AND OTHERS WERE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN JUNE WITH LAFAYETTE SQUARE.

YOU KNOW, THOSE IMAGES OF OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY PUSHING UNARMED PROTESTERS OUT OF THE WAY FOR A PHOTO OP, THE MILITARY RECEIVED A LOT OF CRITICISM FOR THAT, AS DID THE MAYOR.

AND SO I THINK THEY WERE A BIT RETICENT TO BRING THE NATIONAL GUARD IN, IN A BIG WAY.

THE MAYOR PUT OUT A VERY CAREFUL STATEMENT.

I READ IT BEFORE THE EVENTS AND THOUGHT OH, WOW, SHE'S REALLY BEING CAREFUL.

NATIONAL GUARD NOT CARRYING WEAPONS, A RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER.

SO I THINK IT WAS A COMBINATION OF RETICENCE AND REACTING TO THOSE THINGS IN JUNE.

I'M FROM MICHIGAN.

WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THESE KIND OF THINGS SINCE APRIL.

OUR CAPITOL WAS BASICALLY INVADED BY PEOPLE CARRYING WEAPONS.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE -- IF THERE HAD BEEN A DIFFERENT TYPE OF MOVEMENT, WE MIGHT HAVE SEEN STRONGER PRESENCE.

WE'VE SEEN ARMED -- YOU KNOW, THE PERMISSION FOR ARMS TO BE CARRIED TO PROTECT YOUR CAPITOL TODAY AND PRESUMABLY THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ON INAUGURATION DAY.

BUT I WANT TO READ YOU A STATEMENT THAT AS THE SESSION IS UNDER WAY, THE IMPEACHMENT SESSION IS UNDER WAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO'S BEEN BANNED FROM ALL OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA, HIS USUAL CHANNELS, HAS SENT A WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT OUT IN WHICH HE SAYS IN LIGHT OF THE REPORTS OF MORE DEMONSTRATIONS, I URGE THAT THERE MUST BE NO VIOLENCE, NO LAW BREAKING AND NO VANDALISM OF ANY KIND.

JUST ASSESS THAT FOR ME.

AND GIVEN YOUR BACKGROUND AS A CIA ANALYST, HOW MUCH IMPACT WILL THAT HAVE ON HIS MOST DESTRUCTIVE, FANATICAL FOLLOWERS?

YEAH.

WELL, LISTEN, I THINK THAT CONSISTENCY AND THE WORDS OF OUR LEADERS REALLY MATTERS.

WE JUST HAVEN'T HAD ANY CONSISTENCY.

THE PRESIDENT HAS GONE FROM SAYING, YOU KNOW, FIGHT AND DISRUPT AND SHOW THEM WHAT WE REALLY MEAN AND USE ANY MEANS NECESSARY TO PLEASE BE QUIET AND BE CAREFUL AND BE PEACEFUL.

I THINK WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF A PENDULUM SWING IN WHAT YOU SAY, YOUR WORDS BECOME DEVALUED.

I WILL TELL YOU WHEN THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCED VERY PUBLICLY MANY DAYS NOW AGO THAT HE WAS NOT GOING TO BE AT THE INAUGURATION, I IMMEDIATELY TOOK THAT AS A DOG WHISTLE TO HIS FOLLOWERS THAT LIKE, HEY, I'M NOT GOING TO BE THERE.

MY SAFETY IS NOT GOING TO BE IN QUESTION.

A LOT OF US GOT VERY CONCERNED WHEN HE MENTIONED THAT.

SO I GUESS IT'S A BETTER THING THAT HE IS PUTTING OUT THOSE KINDS OF STATEMENTS, BUT I THINK FOR HIS DIEHARD FOLLOWERS THEY LITERALLY WILL SAY THAT'S WHAT HE HAS TO SAY BUT WE KNOW WHAT HE MEANS AND WE'RE GOING TO GO HELP HIM.

THAT'S JUST REALLY CHILLING.

SO NOW LET'S COME TO WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE THE CHAMBER.

FOR THE FIRST TIME, THERE WILL BE REPUBLICANS WHO PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WILL VOTE AGAINST THIS PRESIDENT.

OBVIOUSLY THAT WOULD BE A IN THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION AND UKRAINE IMPEACHMENT.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE CONVERSATIONS YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN HAVING WITH SOME OF YOUR REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES.

WHAT DO THEY FEEL AND ARE MORE OF THEM MORE DISPOSED TO VOTE AGAINST THE PRESIDENT THAN ACTUALLY MIGHT?

YEAH.

SO IT'S INTERESTING.

I'VE HAD A LOT OF HEART-TO-HEART CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE, REPUBLICANS WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE THIS DECISION OR WERE TRYING TO MAKE THIS DECISION.

IT FEELS VERY FAMILIAR.

IN SEPTEMBER OF 2019, MYSELF AND A FEW OTHER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO ARE FROM TRUMP VOTING DISTRICTS MADE THE DECISION TO COME FORWARD AND WRITE AN OP-ED AND SAY IT'S NOW TIME FOR AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY.

I REMEMBER THAT WEEKEND BEFORE THAT OP-ED CAME OUT.

I REALLY HAD TO GRAPPLE WITH THE FACT THAT THIS MIGHT BE A CAREER-ENDING DECISION.

THAT I MIGHT NOT BE RE-ELECTED.

THAT WAS TOUGH.

YOU WORK HARD TO RUN AND TO WIN.

BUT ONCE I MADE THE DECISION THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN JUST BEING RE-ELECTED, IT ACTUALLY WAS FREEING.

I WAS HAVING THOSE SAME CONVERSATIONS WITH SOME OF MY PEERS, THAT HISTORY WILL REALLY REFLECT ON THESE MOMENTS AND THEY WANT TO BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY.

NO ONE DIES IF YOU DON'T GET RE-ELECTED.

NOW, OF COURSE I GIVE A LOT OF CREDIT TO THESE GUYS.

IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

AND SO I HOPE WE SEE AS MANY -- I WOULD LOVE TO SEE UP TO 15 MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, REPUBLICANS WHO VOTE WITH US TODAY.

OF COURSE I'D LOVE IT TO BE MORE.

BUT PRACTICALLY I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE.

AND THEY'RE GOING THROUGH THAT KIND OF LIKE HISTORICAL THOUGHT PROCESS WHERE THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT THEIR GRANDKIDS GOOGLING THEM AND WHAT DO THEY WANT THEIR GRANDKIDS TO SEE.

AND I APPRECIATE HOW HARD IT IS, BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I WENT THROUGH A VERSION OF THIS IN 2019.

YOU DID INDEED.

AND THOSE -- IT SORT OF ALMOST WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PROPELLED YOU TO NATIONAL PROMINENCE BECAUSE YOU HAD PEOPLE FOLLOWING YOU, AND WE COULD RECORD AND HEAR WHAT THEY WERE SAYING IN YOUR DISTRICT AHEAD OF THAT IMPEACHMENT.

OF COURSE YOU REPRESENT A TRUMP-VOTING DISTRICT, SO IT'S PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT FOR YOU.

I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE FROM REPRESENTATIVE DAN NEWHOUSE OF WASHINGTON WHO IS GOING TO BE VOTING TO IMPEACH THIS PRESIDENT.

THESE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT ARE FLAWED, BUT I WILL NOT USE PROCESS AS AN EXCUSE.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ACTIONS.

THE PRESIDENT TOOK AN OATH TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.

LAST WEEK THERE WAS A DOMESTIC THREAT AT THE DOOR OF THE CAPITOL, AND HE DID NOTHING TO STOP IT.

THAT IS WHY WITH A HEAVY HEART AND CLEAR RESOLVE, I WILL VOTE YES ON THESE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.

SO, REPUBLICAN BREAKING WITH THE PRESIDENT.

WE KNOW OBVIOUSLY OTHERS HAVE CRITICIZED THIS PROCESS.

THEY SAY IT WILL BE MORE DIVISIVE.

THEY SAY WHAT'S THE POINT SINCE HE'S ALREADY CONCEDED THAT HE'S LEAVING OFFICE ON JANUARY 20th.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO, BECAUSE IT'S ONE THING FOR ALL OF THIS CONVERSATION TO BE HAPPENING, BUT WE'RE HEARING AND CERTAINLY WE'VE HEARD NETWORK SOURCES HAVE SAID THAT SOME REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS ARE STILL FEELING LIKE THEY'RE BEING THREATENED BY THE WHITE HOUSE TO VOTE THE WAY THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO.

THEY STILL FEEL THAT THEIR LIFE MIGHT BE IN DANGER AND THE LIVES OF THEIR FAMILIES MIGHT BE IN DANGER.

YEAH, YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD THIS FROM A NUMBER OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE COME FORWARD AND SORT OF AS AN EXPLANATION TO ME HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, ALYSSA, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, THINGS ARE GETTING REALLY TENSE IN MY DISTRICT.

MY OFFICES ARE GETTING DEATH THREATS.

PEOPLE ARE THREATENING ME.

THERE'S MILITIAS FORMING IN MY DISTRICT.

I'M TRYING -- I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO ANYONE.

BUT CHRISTIANE THAT'S WHAT WE CALL A NORMAL WEDNESDAY IN MY DISTRICT, RIGHT?

MANY OF US HAVE BEEN LIVING LIKE THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

AND I DON'T -- AGAIN, I DON'T WISH THAT ON ANYONE.

BUT IT IS HARD TO SOMETIMES HEAR FROM SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES, WHO HAVE SURFED THIS WAVE OF POPULISM FOR FOUR YEARS TO THEIR BENEFIT, THAT WHEN THE CURL OF THE WAVE FINALLY COMES AND LOOKS LIKE IT'S COMING OVER THEIR HEADS, THEN IT'S SOMETHING TO BE UPSET ABOUT.

THEN IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE TO SORT OF LEAD WITH.

IT'S BEEN HAPPENING FOR MANY OF US FOR MANY, MANY YEARS NOW.

IT IS HARD TO HEAR.

I DON'T WISH IT ON THEM, BUT IT IS HARD TO HEAR.

SADLY, THEY'RE NOW PART OF THE CLUB.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU TO REFLECT A LITTLE BIT ON ANOTHER REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUE, LIZ CHENEY OF WYOMING.

SO SHE OBVIOUSLY HAS DECIDED TO VOTE AGAINST HIM, BUT IT'S NOT OBVIOUS BECAUSE POLLS DO SHOW THAT 55% OF AMERICANS ARE APPARENTLY AROUND THAT MUCH FAVOR IMPEACHMENT BUT ONLY 15% OF REPUBLICANS.

THE PRESIDENT CARRIED WYOMING WITH 70% OF THE VOTE.

THAT'S HER AREA.

TELL ME ABOUT -- WAS SHE THE SORT OF GAME-CHANGER, WAS THE FACT THAT SHE WAS SUCH A REPUBLICAN, YOU KNOW, PEDIGREE AND THIRD IN LINE IN THE HOUSE, DO YOU THINK OTHERS FOLLOWED HER?

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE'S DOING?

WELL, I PERSONALLY THANKED HER LAST WEEK ACTUALLY FOR WHAT SHE WAS DOING ON SAYING THAT SHE WAS GOING TO CERTIFY THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION LAST WEDNESDAY.

THERE WAS A FUNNY MOMENT, CHRISTIANE, AT THE END, LIKE A 2:00 A.M.

THERE'S A WOMEN'S LOUNGE FOR WOMEN ONLY, IT'S BIPARTISAN.

NONE OF US HAD EATEN ALL DAY.

SOMEONE HAD BOUGHT OUT A VENDING MACHINE AND BROUGHT A BUNCH OF JUNK FOOD.

I GOT SOME MICROWAVE POPCORN AND I BESTOWED IT TO LIZ CHENEY BECAUSE I THOUGHT SHE STOOD UP TO DEMOCRACY AND I APPRECIATE THAT.

I DO THINK HER VIEW HOLDS A LOT OF WEIGHT.

I KNOW HER DAD WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE TEN LIVING SECRETARIES OF DEFENSE TO COME OUT AND SAY WE NEED A PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER AND BIDEN WON.

I THINK IT GIVES PERMISSION TO SOME OF THE MORE UNSURE REPUBLICANS TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

BUT A LOT OF MY PEERS ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE HAD BEEN STRUGGLING WITH THIS.

AND I THINK THAT HER JUST BEING THE MOST PROMINENT WAS AN IMPORTANT SIGNAL THAT IT WAS OKAY.

REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK OF TRUMPISM, BECAUSE THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD ARE LOOKING AT.

75 MILLION PEOPLE VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, ALTHOUGH OBVIOUSLY MANY MORE VOTED FOR JOE BIDEN.

NOW THAT HE'S BEEN DEPLATFORMED FROM SOCIAL MEDIA, NOW THAT YOU HAVE HIS BANKS PULLING BACK FROM HIM, YOU HAVE ALL THESE SORT OF BITS OF HIS SORT OF ENABLING EMPIRE PULLING AWAY FROM HIM, EVEN, YOU KNOW, THE CITY OF NEW YORK IS PLANNING TO BREAK CONTRACTS WITH HIS ORGANIZATION, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

DO YOU THINK THAT ONCE HE'S LEFT OFFICE THAT TRUMPISM SURVIVES?

IS IT AS POTENT A THREAT AS IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN?

THIS IS AN INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT QUESTION.

I DON'T THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE WE'LL HAVE THE DEPARTURE OF DONALD TRUMP THAT IT WILL BE THE END TO THIS ZERO SUM POLITICS THAT IS NORMAL IN THE UNITED STATES.

CERTAINLY IN MY DISTRICT, I KNOW THAT PEOPLE HAVE VERY, VERY STRONG FEELINGS.

THEY STILL ARE HEARING THESE CONSTANT MESSAGES THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, THAT BIDEN WASN'T LEGITIMATE.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A VERY STRONG MOVEMENT TO PUSH BACK ON JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THAT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN TRIES TO DO.

I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF SOMEONE BROUGHT UP ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT IN THE FIRST YEAR ON THE 25th AMENDMENT, ON THE HEALTH OF VICE PRESIDENT AND SOON-TO-BE PRESIDENT BIDEN AS RETRIBUTION.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS ZERO SUM POLITICS.

THAT IS WHY IT'S GOING TO BE SO IMPORTANT TO SEE SOME OF THESE REPUBLICAN LEADERS STAND UP FOR THE FIRST TIME AND SAY WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT THIS IS AMERICAN POLITICS FROM NOW ON.

TRUMPISM IS NOT GOING AWAY.

THAT ANGER, THAT FRUSTRATION FOR A WHOLE HOST OF REASONS, LEGITIMATE AND ILLEGITIMATE IS STILL GOING TO BE THERE AFTER HE LEAVES OFFICE.

NOW I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE -- YOU KNOW, THE POTENTIAL CORRUPTION INSIDE THE SECURITY FORCES.

AS YOU KNOW, SENIOR MEMBERS, A COUPLE OF THEM ANYWAY, DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE, HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THE INSURRECTIONISTS MAY HAVE HAD INSIDE HELP.

CONGRESSWOMAN ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ INFERRED THE SAME AND SHE SAID SHE HAD A PRETTY CLOSE BRUSH WITH VIOLENCE THAT DAY A WEEK AGO.

LET'S JUST PLAY WHAT SHE SAID.

THERE WAS A SENSE THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG, AND OBVIOUSLY WITH THE VIOLENCE, BUT THERE WAS A SENSE THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG FROM THE INSIDE.

I MYSELF DID NOT EVEN FEEL SAFE GOING TO THE -- THAT EXTRACTION POINT BECAUSE THERE WERE QANON AND WHITE SUPREMACIST SYMPATHIZERS AND FRANKLY WHITE SUPREMACIST MEMBERS OF CONGRESS IN THAT EXTRACTION POINT WHO I KNOW AND WHO I FELT WOULD DISCLOSE MY LOCATION AND ALLOW ME TO -- WHO WOULD CREATE OPPORTUNITIES TO ALLOW ME TO BE HURT, KIDNAPPED, ET CETERA.

AND SO I DIDN'T EVEN FEEL SAFE AROUND OTHER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

THAT'S PRETTY STARK.

I WONDER WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.

YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO DENY SOMEONE'S FEELINGS AND CERTAINLY THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST IN THESE BIG TOURS OF FOLKS THAT WE SAW GOING ON IN THE DAYS PRIOR TO THE ATTACK.

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY CONCRETE EVIDENCE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE BE VERY SPECIFIC AND VERY FACTUAL IN HOW WE DEAL WITH THESE THINGS.

I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN ANY EVIDENCE THAT MEMBERS BROUGHT IN VISITORS THAT WERE SURVEILLING THE HOUSE OR THE CONGRESS AND, THEREFORE, PROVIDED INFORMATION AND CAME IN WITH THE RIOTERS, WITH THE PLOTTERS.

I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT MYSELF.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED AN ACTUAL THOROUGH INVESTIGATION.

BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY A LOT OF PEOPLE FEELING THAT WAY.

AND WHEN WE HAVE MEMBERS OF THROUGH A METAL DETECTOR OR BLOW THROUGH IT, WHO LIKE LITERALLY ARM CHECK THE CAPITOL POLICE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH.

I MEAN REALLY THEY ARE JUST THROUGH THE WRINGER THIS FORCE.

YOU JUST HAVE TO ASK, DO YOU CARE ABOUT ANYONE?

AND TO WHAT EXTENT WILL YOU GO FOR YOUR CAUSE?

AND SOME OF OUR NEWER MEMBERS IN PARTICULAR.

HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FEEL WHEN THEY LITERALLY POSE FOR PHOTOS WITH FOLKS FLASHING THE WHITE POWER SIGN.

I'M A JEWISH PERSON.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS WHEN I SEE THAT?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT FEAR?

I JUST THANK GOD MY GRANDPARENTS AREN'T ALIVE TO SEE THIS.

SO THAT LEVEL OF TENSION IS DEFINITELY IN THE AIR.

I DON'T WANT TO MAKE ACCUSATIONS BUT THAT FEELING IS DEFINITELY AMONG MANY, MANY MEMBERS THAT I SERVE WITH.

IT'S REALLY PROFOUND TO HEAR YOU SAY WHAT YOU SAY AND THE WARNINGS AND ACCOUNTABILITY IS KEY.

CONGRESSWOMAN SLOTKIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> TODAY'S AMERICA AS WE'VE JUST BEEN DISCUSSING IS BITTERLY DIVIDED.

OUR NEXT GUEST'S LATEST MOVIE ALSO CAPTURES A DEEPLY FRACTURED NATION BUT OF COURSE OF A DIFFERENT ERA, PAUL GREENGRAS DIRECTOR OF THE 'BOURN' FRANCHISE TAKES ON A WESTERN WITH NEWS OF THE WORLD.

THIS FOLLOWS A CIVIL WAR VETERAN AND TRAVELING STORY TELLER PLAYED BY TOM HANKS WHO COMES ACROSS A YOUNG ORPHAN GIRL RAISED BY NATIVE AMERICANS.

IT'S THE STORY OF TRYING TO REUNITE HER WITH HER FAMILY.

HERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF THE TRAILER.

SO THEY PAY YOU TO TELL STORIES.

I AIN'T NEVER HEARD OF THAT AS A THING A MAN CAN DO.

IT'S NOT A RICH MAN'S OCCUPATION, AS YOU CAN SEE.

STOP, STOP!

I'M NOT GOING TO HURT YOU!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH?

IT SAYS YOUR NAME IS JOHANNA LIMBERGER.

YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER AND SISTER, WELL, THEY PASSED.

THE DIRECTOR JOINS ME FROM SUFFOLK HERE IN ENGLAND.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE WOULD HAVE DONE IT FACE-TO-FACE IF NOT FOR THE SEVERITY OF LONDON LOCKDOWN.

I WONDER IF I COULD ASK YOU, PAUL GREENGRAS, WHAT MADE YOU TAKE ON A WESTERN FOR THE FIRST TIME?

WHAT WAS IT THAT LED YOU TO THAT PLACE?

WELL, I GREW UP WITH WESTERNS WHEN I WAS A BOY.

BUT MOST OF ALL IT WAS THAT I WAS LOOKING TO DO A FILM THAT WAS MORE ABOUT THE ROAD TO HEALING.

THAT WAS REALLY WHAT WAS IN MY MIND.

THE LAST FILM I DID WAS JULY ABOUT THE RIGHT-WING TERRORIST ATTACKS IN NORWAY BECAUSE I FELT THAT PROBLEM WAS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE AND SUBSEQUENT EVENTS HAVE SHOWN THAT TO BE THE CASE.

BUT WHEN THAT WAS OVER, I WANTED TO DO A FILM THAT WAS REALLY ABOUT THE ROAD TO OPTIMISM, THE ROAD TO HOPE.

WHERE IS IT IN A BITTERLY DIVIDED WORLD.

WHEN I READ THIS NOVEL, THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THIS CHARACTER OF THE LONELY NEWS READER WANDERING FROM SMALL COMMUNITY TO SMALL COMMUNITY WITH JUST A SATCHEL OF OLD NEWSPAPERS.

ALL HE CAN DO, HE'S LOST EVERYTHING IN THE CIVIL WAR.

ALL HE CAN DO IS READ STORIES.

AND HIS STORIES HEAL THE WOUNDS OF THESE COMMUNITIES.

AND WHEN HE MEETS THE LITTLE GIRL, THEY GO ON AN ODYSSEY REALLY THROUGH TEXAS.

AND THAT JOURNEY IS REALLY THE JOURNEY TOWARDS HEALING.

SO YOU TALK ABOUT HEALING AND WHITE SUPREMACY AND ALL THESE THINGS ALL SORT OF BUNCHED TOGETHER IN THESE PIECES OF WORK THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS AND IT'S LIKE OH, MY GOODNESS, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH AS A WORLD RIGHT NOW.

WE'VE JUST HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH A CONGRESSWOMAN ABOUT IMPEACHING PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR THE SECOND TIME.

HEALING, HEALING, HEALING.

YOUR FILM, 'NEWS OF THE WORLD' TAKES PART, TAKES PLACE IN THE RECONSTRUCTION ERA, RIGHT, IN THE 1870s AND IT'S IN TEXAS.

JUST GIVE VIEWERS A SENSE OF THE PLACEMENT OF THAT PERIOD AND WHAT WAS -- AND HE'S A CONFEDERATE, WASN'T HE?

HE'S A CIVIL WAR VETERAN, BUT TOM HANKS PLAYS A CONFEDERATE SOLDIER.

OR HE FOUGHT AS ONE.

YES, HE'S -- TEXAS WAS BITTERLY DIVIDED.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE FIVE YEARS AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

AMERICA IS UNCERTAIN, YOU KNOW.

GRIEVING.

TEXAS ITSELF IS NOT AT THAT POINT, HAS NOT RATIFIED, IS NOT PART OF THE UNION.

SO IT WAS A DANGEROUS, DIVIDED, AND KIDD HIMSELF IS A GOOD MAN.

HE'S A GOOD MAN WHO HAS LOST EVERYTHING IN THE CIVIL WAR.

ALL HE HAS REALLY IS THE POWER TO TELL STORIES.

AND THAT'S WHAT HE DOES.

AND IN TELLING THOSE STORIES, THE LOCAL NEWS, THE FEDERAL NEWS, NEWS FROM FAR AWAY, HE TRIES TO DRAW HIS AUDIENCE INTO A RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE WE'RE THE STORY-TELLING ANIMAL.

THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

THAT'S ALL HE CAN DO.

IT'S THE ONLY THING HE CAN DO.

AND WHEN HE MEETS THIS LITTLE GIRL, IT REALLY BECOMES A JOURNEY OUT OF THE BITTERNESS, OUT OF THE DIVISION.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT THE FILM IS.

SO KIDD, AS YOU SAY, TOM HANKS, IT IS HIS FIRST WESTERN.

AND HE PLAYS CAPTAIN JEFFERSON KYLE KIDD.

AND HE MEETS THIS YOUNG GIRL, AS YOU SAY, JOHANNA, WHO HAS BEEN ORPHANED TWICE AND SHE'S LIKE LOST AND HE TRIES TO RESCUE HER.

BUT IT IS A WESTERN.

AND THERE'S A FANTASTIC SHOOTOUT SCENE.

WE'RE GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF THAT.

YOU'RE GOOD FOR A MAN OF YEARS.

HELP ME.

THE BODY IS SO BROKE OUT THERE.

FOR YOU TO ENDING LIKE THIS, YOU CAN JUST JOIN US.

RICH PICKINS FOR SOME, SLIM PICKINS FOR THE REST OF US.

YOU GO.

TAKE THE HORSES AND GO.

I SHOOT, YOU GO.

SO THOSE GUN SLINGERS WERE UP TO NO GOOD.

THEY THOUGHT THEY'D HAVE AN EASY GO AGAINST AN OLDER GENTLEMAN AND A LITTLE GIRL.

TELL ME ABOUT THE DYNAMIC BETWEEN THE GREAT ESTABLISHED TOM HANKS AND THIS, I THINK, VERY NEW -- IS SHE 11 OR 12?

SHE'S 11 YEARS OLD.

GERMAN ACTOR.

I MEAN WHEN I STARTED THE FILM, I THOUGHT THE BIG PROBLEM WAS GOING TO BE TO FIND A LITTLE GIRL OF 11 YEARS OLD WHO COULD PLAY THIS PART, BECAUSE IT'S A VERY BIG PART.

SHE'S ESSENTIALLY GOING TOE TO TOE WITH TOM HANKS.

I WANTED A GERMAN ACTRESS TO PLAY HER BECAUSE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN GERMAN.

SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THAT WAVE OF GERMAN SETTLERS WHO CAME TO TEXAS AT THAT TIME.

AND I SAW HER PREVIOUS FILM 'SYSTEM CRASHER' WHICH WON THE PRIZE AT BERLIN.

SHE WAS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.

YOU KNOW, YOU NEVER KNOW WITH A YOUNG -- YOU KNOW, YOUNG ACTOR HOW THEY'RE GOING TO PERFORM, BUT I REMEMBER THE FIRST DAY WE SHOT THAT SCENE WHERE THEY FIRST MEET IN THE WOODS AND TOM COMING OVER TO ME AFTER THREE OR FOUR TAKES AND SAYING SHE'S ABSOLUTELY SUPERB.

AND SO SHE WAS.

SHE WAS JUST A REAL, REAL -- JUST A TRUE TALENT.

I THINK SHE'S GOING TO HAVE A VERY BIG CAREER IS WHAT I THINK.

WELL, I TELL YOU, JUST THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEM, THE WAY -- HER POISE IS UNBELIEVABLE THROUGHOUT.

IT REALLY IS EXTRAORDINARY TO WATCH HER AND THAT RELATIONSHIP.

YOU KNOW, FROM TOTAL INGENUE TO SOMEBODY RE-ESTABLISHED.

AND YOU REUNITE WITH TOM HANKS.

THE LAST FILM YOU DID TOGETHER WAS 'CAPTAIN PHILLIPS.'

WHICH IS ABOUT THE PIRATES AND HIJACKING OF THAT BIG SHIP ON THE SEAS OFF EAST AFRICA.

BUT WHAT KIND OF AN ACTOR AND CO-ACTOR, CO-STAR IS TOM HANKS?

HOW DID HE BEHAVE AND ENABLE AND COMFORT HER?

WELL, HE WAS FANTASTIC TO HER.

HE WAS INCREDIBLY GENEROUS.

HE HELPED HER ALL THE WAY.

BUT THE TRUTH IS, SHE STOOD HER GROUND.

SHE WAS JUST -- YOU THINK WHEN YOU START WITH A YOUNG PERSON, I KNOW HE FELT THE SAME, THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO NURSE THEM THROUGH.

THE TRUTH IS IT WASN'T LIKE THAT.

SHE HAD STRONG INSTINCTS.

THEY BONDED TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I THINK OF MAKING THAT FILM, I THINK OF THEM SITTING ON THE WAGON WHILE WE WERE SETTING UP SHOTS AND THEY WOULD BE LAUGHING AND JOKING TOGETHER.

I REMEMBER ONE TIME WHEN HER MIC WAS STILL HOT.

I COULD HEAR IT IN MY EAR AND I HEARD HER LEAN OVER TO TOM AND SAY IN A WHISPER, TOM, DOES EVERYBODY SWEAR ALL THE TIME ON AN AMERICAN FILM SET?

LOOK, THE THING ABOUT THIS FILM --

LEARNING YOUNG.

YEAH, IN A DIVIDED WORLD.

I MEAN THE WORLD IS VERY DIFFICULT.

I WAS JUST LISTENING TO THE TAIL END OF THE INTERVIEW YOU'VE JUST DONE.

IT'S DIFFICULT IN MY COUNTRY, IT'S DIFFICULT IN YOUR COUNTRY, IT'S DIFFICULT ACROSS THE WORLD.

THESE ARE DARK, DARK TIMES.

BUT WHAT I LOVED ABOUT THIS FILM AND THE REASON I MADE IT IS BECAUSE WE WILL COME THROUGH THIS.

WE WILL COME THROUGH IT.

AND I WANTED TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT TWO CHARACTERS.

THEY'RE NOT SPECIAL.

HE'S JUST A LONELY GUY WHO WITH A COUPLE OF NEWSPAPERS AND SHE'S JUST A LOST CHILD.

BUT THEIR JOURNEY, THEY FIND A BETTER PLACE, AND WE WILL FIND A BETTER PLACE, I REALLY, REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE CLEARLY MANY OF YOUR FILMS HAVE BEEN BASED IN REAL LIFE EVENTS, WHETHER IT IS THE JULY 22nd, THE WHITE SUPREMACIST WHO KILLED ALL THOSE PEOPLE, WHETHER IT IS CAPTAIN PHILLIPS.

THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY PIRACY ON THE HIGH SEAS.

WHETHER IT'S THIS ONE.

AND YOU YOURSELF USED TO BE A JOURNALIST AND ESSENTIALLY CAPTAIN -- CAPTAIN KIDD IS ACTUALLY A JOURNALIST, RIGHT?

FOR SURE.

IS IT THAT PART OF YOU THAT YOU'RE SCRATCHING?

YES.

THAT AND ALSO THE MOVIE MAKER, THE STORY TELLER.

I LOVE THE WAY THAT HE EMBRACES THE CRAFT OF NEWS READING.

HE'S JUST BRINGING STORIES TO PEOPLE.

IN THE END HE DEFENDS THE TRUTH.

THERE'S A CRUCIAL SCENE HALFWAY THROUGH WHEN HE REFUSES TO SUBSTITUTE LIES FOR TRUTH.

AND INSISTS ON TELLING THE TRUTH.

IN HIS SMALL WAY, HE'S OPERATING AS ALL OF YOU GUYS ON CNN AND EVERY OTHER OUTLET.

IN THE END, IN BITTERLY DIVIDED TIMES, TRUTH IS ALWAYS ON THE LINE.

AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IT GETS DEFENDED.

AND THE FIRST LINE OF RESISTANCE OF THAT DEFENSE IS JOURNALISM, MY OLD PROFESSION.

I WISH YOU ALL WELL BECAUSE I KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HOW DIFFICULT IT IS.

WELL, GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT STORY TELLING AND DEFENDING THE TRUTH IN THAT SCENE IN THE FILM, AND OF COURSE I'VE SEEN THE FILM AND IT JUST GRABS YOU AND HOLDS ON TO YOU.

I WANT TO PLAY THE CLIP THAT WE HAVE.

IT MAY NOT BE THE EXACT ONE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BUT THIS IS WHERE TOM HANKS IS TELLING THE STORY.

BY NOW THE YOUNG GIRL, JOHANNA IS KINDS OF HIS ASSISTANT AND SHE'S GOING AROUND COLLECTING THE MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING AND WATCHING OUT FOR HIM.

THIS IS WHERE HE'S TRYING TO EXPLAIN TRYING TO GET THESE PEOPLE TO OVERTHROW THEIR BRUTAL MILITIA LEADER.

HERE'S THE CLIP.

I TOLD YOU TO READ --

WELL, YOU SEE I WAS WONDERING IF PEOPLE MIGHT CONSIDER STORY TELLING FROM PLACES OUTSIDE OF THAT.

JUST FOR TONIGHT.

I THINK YOU OUGHT TO READ FROM THE ERATH ALL THE SAME, CAPTAIN.

IT'S WHAT THESE PEOPLE EXPECT TO HEAR.

HOW ABOUT WE VOTE ON IT?

HOW ABOUT WE DON'T?

I CAN READ FROM MR. FARLEY'S ERATH JOURNAL OR I CAN KEEP ON WITH THE STORY --

SO HE WAS KIND OF URGING THEM ON.

IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING MOMENT IN THE FILM.

YEP, YEP, YEP.

WELL, WHEN I LISTENED TO THAT CLIP JUST NOW IN MY EAR, IT FEELS PRETTY RESONANT OF TODAY, DOESN'T IT?

YES.

YES, I WAS WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY THAT.

I THINK SO.

IF YOU HAD TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED ON CAPITOL HILL, HOW WOULD YOU MAKE IT?

WE KNOW THE BEGINNING AND THE END.

THAT'S A FILM, ISN'T IT?

LOOK, I THINK ABOUT IT A LOT.

I THINK THE ANSWER IS IN TWO PARTS REALLY.

THE FIRST PART IS THE PROBLEM, I THINK, FOR MOVIES AND TELEVISION AND STORY TELLERS GENERALLY IS THAT FACT IS JUST SO FAR MORE TRAUMATIC THAN FICTION CAN EVER BE.

IF YOU HAD COME UP WITH THE SCENARIO OF THE LAST FOUR DAYS, LET ALONE THE LAST FOUR YEARS, PEOPLE WOULD NEVER BELIEVE IT, WOULD THEY, YOU KNOW.

SO THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THESE EVENTS IN A FICTIONAL REALM WHEN THE FACTS AND THE DRAMA OF THE HERE AND NOW IS SO ABSOLUTELY OVERWHELMING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK THE BIG ISSUE FOR US, I WAS ACTUALLY WATCHING CNN THE NIGHT OF THE INSURRECTION, THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO IT WAS, BUT IT WAS ONE OF YOUR DISTINGUISHED GUESTS SAID, AND IT'S A PHRASE THAT STUCK WITH ME EVER SINCE.

HE SAID THE REAL QUESTION ABOUT THESE EVENTS IS, IS THIS THE DEATH OF SOMETHING OR IS IT THE BIRTH OF SOMETHING?

AND I THINK --

YES.

-- THE REAL ISSUE.

WHAT'S DYING AND WHAT'S BEING BORN HERE?

BECAUSE FOR SURE AS I LOOK MYSELF AS A PARENT, MY COUNTRY, THE UK, I WOULD NEVER, EVER HAVE BELIEVED EVER THAT WE WOULD LEAVE THE EU.

I FOUND THAT EXTRAORDINARY.

BUT WE DID AND A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTED FOR IT.

YOU KNOW, YOUR COUNTRY IS OBVIOUSLY ROILING WITH ITS OWN ISSUES.

THESE ARE UNPRECEDENTED TIMES.

AND THE ROPES THAT ANCHOR US INTO THE LIFE THAT WE'VE UNDERSTOOD AS ADULTS IS -- THEY'RE BEING RIPPED OUT ONE BY ONE AND THAT'S VERY, VERY DISTURBING.

RIGHT.

AND IN THE END, THESE ARE MORBID SYMPTOMS ATTENDANT ON SOMETHING BEING BORN.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT IS IT?

IS IT TO THE GOOD OR IS IT TO THE BAD?

THAT'S REALLY THE ISSUE.

AND I THINK IN TERMS OF MOVIE MAKING, THAT'S, I THINK, WHERE A LOT OF MOVIE MAKING WILL BE MADE TO TRY TO UNPICK THE STORY JUST AS JOURNALISM DOES AND COMMENTATORS DO.

THAT'S THE BIG ISSUE FACING US.

SO IN OUR LAST MINUTE I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT MOVIES, BECAUSE YOU'VE SEEN EVEN JAMES BOND HAS BEEN PUSHED BACK.

YOU'VE DIRECTED SEVERAL OF THE BOURNE FRANCHISES.

YOU'RE A BIG CINEMA GUY.

SWEEPING VISTAS AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

YOU'VE SEEN HOW WARNER MEDIA, THE C.

CNN PARENT COMPANY HAS DECIDED TO PUT THINGS STREAMING.

WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF CINEMA IN THEATERS, DO YOU THINK?

WELL, LOOK, I THINK THERE'S TWO CRISES HITTING THE MOVIE AND TELEVISION BUSINESS, ONE INSIDE THE OTHER, OR THE MOVIE BUSINESS, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

THE FIRST CRISIS IS THE OBVIOUS ONE OF THE PANDEMIC, BECAUSE IT'S INTERRUPTED PRODUCTION AND OBVIOUSLY IT'S DECIMATED EXHIBITION.

I MEAN THIS MOVIE, WHICH WE MADE FOR THE BIG SCREEN AND IT LOOKS GORGEOUS ON A BIG SCREEN, VERY FEW PEOPLE INEVITABLY WILL SEE IT THAT WAY.

THEY'LL SEE IT IN OTHER WAYS.

BUT THE OTHER CRISIS IS THE ONE OF CHANGE AND I THINK THIS GOES TO THE HEART OF THE ECONOMY GENERALLY.

VAST CHANGE ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN AS A RESULT OF THIS PANDEMIC THAT WE'RE PROBABLY IN PROCESS ALREADY BUT THE PANDEMIC WILL ACCELERATE THEM ENORMOUSLY AND THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE IN THE MOVIE INDUSTRY.

IN THE END WE'RE GOING TO MOVE UP WITH A MOVIE BUSINESS WHERE MOVIES WILL BE AVAILABLE IN THEATERS AND I DO BELIEVE WE WILL GO BACK TO THEATERS PROBABLY INSIDE SIX MONTHS, I WOULD SAY.

I'M PRETTY OPTIMISTIC ON THAT.

BUT THEY WILL HAVE TO CO-EXIST AS A CHOICE WITH AUDIENCES WHO MAY CHOOSE TO ENJOY THOSE FILMS BY STREAMING SO I'M OPTIMISTIC, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO EMBRACE THAT CHANGE.

I'M GLAD TO HEAR YOU'RE OPTIMISTIC.

DIRECTOR PAUL GREENGRAS, 'NEWS OF THE WORLD.'

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

> NOW WE'RE GOING TO SHIFT BACK TO AMERICAN POLITICS AND ANOTHER SIGN OF DONALD TRUMP'S DWINDLING INFLUENCE.

YOUTUBE HAS BECOME THE LATEST SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM TO SUSPEND HIS ACCOUNTS SAYING ONE OF THE VIDEOS INCITED VIOLENCE.

FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM HAVE ALREADY TAKEN ACTION AGAINST TRUMP.

BUT WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DOES SILICON VALLEY BEAR FOR LAST WEEK'S CAPITOL HILL RIOT?

ROGER McNAMEE HAS WRITTEN A DAMNING ARTICLE CALLED 'PLATFORMS MUST PAY FOR THEIR ROLE IN THE INSURRECTION.'

HERE HE IS TALKING ABOUT IT.

CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

ROGER, WE'VE GOT BASICALLY TWO MAJOR TRAGEDIES.

YESTERDAY ANOTHER 4400 PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE OF COVID AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

AND THEN WE HAVE WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, WHICH IS A SIGNAL FOR A DEMOCRATIC TRAGEDY OF SORTS.

HOW RESPONSIBLE IS FACEBOOK FOR THESE?

SO FACEBOOK PLAYS A FUNDAMENTAL ROLE IN BOTH OF THOSE TRAGEDIES.

INTERNET PLATFORMS, I WOULD ALSO INCLUDE YOUTUBE, TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM IN THE SAME ACCUSATION I'M MAKING ABOUT FACEBOOK HERE.

THEY ESSENTIALLY HAVE BUILT BUSINESSES BASED ON GRABBING THE ATTENTION OF PEOPLE AND HOLDING IT.

AND THEY DO THAT BY PRESENTING THEM WITH EMOTIONALLY INFLAMMATORY CONTENT.

SO WHEN WE LOOK AT FACEBOOK, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING IS THAT HATE SPEECH AND DISINFORMATION AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE CORE TO THE BUSINESS.

THE CONSEQUENCE OF THAT IS THAT COVID DISINFORMATION FLOURISHED ON FACEBOOK.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO MOST EMBRACED IT, IF YOU THINK ABOUT QANON CONSPIRACY THEORY, FACEBOOK HAS ADMITTED THAT THERE WERE 3 MILLION PEOPLE WHO JOINED FACEBOOK GROUPS AND FACEBOOK PAGES DEVOTED TO QANON.

THEY ALSO REPORTED -- ACTUALLY IT WAS FOUND OUT BY 'THE WALL STREET JOURNAL' THAT FACEBOOK DID AN INTERNAL STUDY THAT SHOWED THAT 64% OF THE TIME THAT SOMEBODY JOINED AN EXTREMIST GROUP LIKE QANON ON FACEBOOK, THEY DID IT BECAUSE FACEBOOK RECOMMENDED IT.

WHICH MEANS THAT 2 MILLION OF THE PEOPLE ON THOSE FACEBOOK GROUPS FOR QANON WERE RADICALIZED BY FACEBOOK.

IF YOU ROLL FORWARD TO JANUARY 6th AT THE CAPITOL, YOU'RE GOING TO FIND THE THEME OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE WAS A BELIEF IN QANON.

SO IT WASN'T JUST THAT THEY RADICALIZED ALL THOSE PEOPLE.

FACEBOOK GROUPS ALSO PROVIDED THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ORGANIZING THE INSURRECTION.

AND IT WASN'T JUST FACEBOOK.

OTHER PLATFORMS WERE INVOLVED AS WELL.

BUT FACEBOOK WAS THE CENTRAL ONE, THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE.

YOUTUBE BECAME THE MOST RECENT OF THE PLATFORMS TO DEPLATFORM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

ALL OF THESE MOVES BY TWITTER, BY FACEBOOK, BY YOUTUBE, BY PINTEREST, ARE THESE EFFECTIVE?

TOO LITTLE TOO LATE?

MUCH TOO LITTLE, MUCH TOO LATE.

BUT THE CORE POINT HERE IS THESE COMPANIES I DO NOT BELIEVE ARE DOING THIS OUT OF A SENSE OF CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY.

I BELIEVE THEY RECOGNIZE THAT THEY HAVE EXTREME LEGAL JEOPARDY HERE.

AND IT COMES IN TWO FORMS.

FIRST, BY RADICALIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION AND THEN BY PROVIDING INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ORGANIZING IT, THEY WERE AT LEAST ACCESSORIES TO AN INSURRECTION.

AND I THINK IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES, INSURRECTION AGAINST A BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, SO INCITEMENT TO INSURRECTION WOULD BE VIEWED AS AS GREAT A CRIME AS ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL COULD POSSIBLY COMMIT.

SO THE NOTION THAT YOU ARE AN ACCESSORY TO THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM LEGALLY.

BUT IT GETS WORSE.

WHILE THE JANUARY 6th ONE WAS PLANNED EVER SINCE THE ELECTION AND DONE SO IN PLAIN SIGHT, THERE WERE FURTHER INSURRECTIONS.

WE SHOULD ANTICIPATE THIS WEEKEND AND THROUGH THE INAUGURATION THAT THERE WILL BE OTHER EVENTS.

APPARENTLY AT STATE CAPITOLS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

AND I THINK ALL OF THESE PLATFORMS LOOKED AT THIS AND REALIZED THAT IF THOSE WENT OFF AND IF THEY HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING TO ATTEMPT TO SUPPRESS THEM, THAT THE LEGAL JEOPARDY WOULD HAVE JUST BECOME SO GREAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO RECOVER FROM IT.

SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT DROVE THEM.

I LOOK THEM AT YOUTUBE AND THEY DESERVE NO CREDIT AT ALL.

THEY'RE PUTTING ON A SEVEN-DAY ESSENTIALLY A PAUSE ON TRUMP.

THEY'RE TRYING TO GET RID OF A PUBLIC RELATIONS PROBLEM WITHOUT ACTUALLY GETTING TRUMP OFF THE PLATFORM.

AND THAT'S JUST SO CYNICAL, BECAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE THIS PROBLEM IS MAGICALLY GOING TO DISAPPEAR IN SEVEN DAYS.

HE HAS CREATED LITERALLY AN ARMY OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE CONSTITUTION, DO NOT BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, AND AS A CONSEQUENCE -- AND BY THE WAY, MANY OF THEM ARMED TO THE TEETH.

AND FOR THESE PLATFORMS TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS IS IN MY MIND JUST MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE AND PROBABLY LEGALLY UNJUSTIFIABLE.

YOU'VE SEEN FOR THE PAST SEVERAL DAYS THE CHALLENGE, THE PUSHBACK FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DEPLATFORMED OR CONSERVATIVE GROUPS OR CONSERVATIVE POLITICIANS HAS BEEN, HEY, THIS SHOULD BE A FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUE.

THIS IS THE MODERN DAY TOWN SQUARE.

YES, IT'S NOT A PUBLIC SIDEWALK BUT THIS IS WHERE I CAN EXPRESS MY OPINION AND SHOULD A TECH EXECUTIVE IN SILICON VALLEY OR ELSEWHERE BE GIVEN THE POWER TO SILENCE SPEECH.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE FIRST AMENDMENT DEFENSE WE HEAR NOW?

THERE ARE A SERIES OF ISSUES WITH IT.

AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL I ACTUALLY AGREE THAT NO ONE IN CORPORATE AMERICA, NO PRIVATE COMPANY SHOULD HAVE AS MUCH CONTROL OVER SPEECH IN AMERICA AS THESE COMPANIES HAVE.

THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND I THINK AS YOU KNOW I HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AGAINST THAT FOR FOUR YEARS.

THAT IS A PROBLEM FOR ANOTHER DAY.

THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT GUARANTEE A RIGHT TO INCITE INSURRECTION.

IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A RIGHT TO HARM OTHER PEOPLE.

THERE ARE LIMITS TO SPEECH, EVEN FOR GOVERNMENT.

AND SO WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST HERE IS THAT THOSE ARE INSINCERE ARGUMENTS.

THEY'RE INSINCERE ARGUMENTS LARGELY COMING FROM PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATED THE INSURRECTION.

AND JUST AS THEY ARE ALSO CALLING FOR REDUCING THE TENSIONS AND EVERYBODY HAVING A KUMBAYA MOMENT, I JUST THINK ALL OF THAT IS NONSENSICAL AND WE SHOULD JUST KEEP OUR EYE ON THE PRIZE HERE, WHICH IS THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ATTEMPTED WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN IN AN EARLIER AGE WAS A CAPITAL CRIME AND WAS AIDED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE RIGHT THAT HAS THIS TENSION NOW.

I MEAN YOU SEE OVERSEAS ANGELA MERKEL SAYING, HEY, I DON'T THINK TECH EXECUTIVES SHOULD HAVE THIS KIND OF POWER.

SHE'S PROBABLY CONCERNED BECAUSE EVERY LEADER IS PROBABLY CONCERNED THAT I COULD BE DEPLATFORMED FOR SOMETHING I SAY, RIGHT?

I SEE HER PERSONAL INTEREST IN THIS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU HAVE THIS RARE UNIFICATION OF AN EVENT THAT LITERALLY IMPACTED EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS AT THE SAME TIME.

YEAH.

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH ANGELA MERKEL.

I DO NOT THINK THAT THESE WHITE AND SOUTH ASIAN MEN IN CALIFORNIA SHOULD BE DETERMINING WHAT IS SPEECH AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT LET US BE CLEAR.

THE NOTION THAT ANGELA MERKEL LOSES HER ACCESS TO INTERNET PLATFORMS BECAUSE THEY SAY SO IS MANIFESTLY UNFAIR.

BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOR THESE REASONS.

THIS IS LITERALLY A ONE-OF-A-KIND EVENT.

WE ARE HAVING A REVOLUTION IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE ARE HAVING A CIVIL WAR.

AND PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO USE LANGUAGE THAT MAKES IT SEEM LESS THAN IT ACTUALLY IS.

THIS IS -- IF EVER THERE IS A ONE-OFF EVENT, THIS IS IT.

THIS IS APPEAR EMERGENCY.

AND WE HAVE TO STAY FOCUSED ON THAT POINT AND RECOGNIZE THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE CO-CONSPIRATORS.

THEY ARE ENABLERS OF AN INSURRECTION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

COULD THIS TYPE OF SPEECH GO BACK UNDERGROUND?

IS THAT GOOD?

ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT IS, LOOK, I WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THE CRAZY PERSON IS BECAUSE I CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THIS IS A SUPER IMPORTANT QUESTION.

WHEN I LOOK AT THIS, I LOOK AT THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION.

AND WHAT I SEE IS THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE THERE WERE CIVIL WAR REENACTORS.

THEY WERE THERE BECAUSE SOCIALLY SPEAKING THEIR CIRCLE WAS ALL THERE AND THEY FELT LIKE THIS WAS THE PLACE TO BE.

MIXED IN WITH THEM WAS A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PROFESSIONALS.

OFF DUTY POLICE, FORMER MILITARY PEOPLE WHO HAD TRAINING, WERE VERY WELL ORGANIZED, PEOPLE WITH EAR PIECES, PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT IN ZIP TIES FOR TAKING HOSTAGES, BROUGHT IN TASERS FOR INCAPACITATING HOSTAGES, PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT IN WEAPONS AND BOMBS.

IN MY MIND WHEN YOU SHUT DOWN THIS KIND OF STUFF ON THE OPEN PLATFORMS, YOU DISCOURAGE THE CIVIL WAR REENACTORS FROM PARTICIPATING IN A CIVIL WAR.

YOU REDUCE IT TO PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT PLANNING WHAT THEY WERE DOING ON FACEBOOK.

IT'S HARD FOR ME TO IMAGINE THAT THE PEOPLE WITH THE ZIP TIES AND THE PEOPLE WITH THE BOMBS WERE DOING THAT ON FACEBOOK.

I SUSPECT THEY WERE ALWAYS IN THE ENCRYPTED SURFACES.

AND THAT PROBLEM ABSOLUTELY WILL REMAIN.

BUT RIGHT NOW THERE ARE LITERALLY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO ARE SYMPATHETIC WITH THAT INSURRECTION.

AND THE REASON THEY ARE IS BECAUSE THEIR LIFE TAKES PLACE IN A TRUMAN SHOW CRAFTED BY FACEBOOK, MAINTAINED BY FOX AND OAN AND NEWSMAX.

WE HAVE TO PIERCE THAT.

WE HAVE TO GET EVERYONE TO LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD BECAUSE DEMOCRACY IS ABOUT HAVING DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEMS APPLIED TO A SHARED SET OF FACTS.

AND BECAUSE OF FACEBOOK, BECAUSE OF GOOGLE, BECAUSE OF TWITTER, THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE REALITY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WHO WANTS IT.

AND I BELIEVE WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT PROBLEM.

WHAT YOU DO WITH THE SMALL NUMBER OF REALLY DANGEROUS PEOPLE, THAT IS A PERSISTENT LAW ENFORCEMENT ISSUE THAT'S BEEN WITH US FOREVER AND WILL BE WITH US FOREVER FROM NOW.

YOU'VE SAID ONE OF THE WAYS TO TRY TO FIX THIS IF YOU COULD SUGGEST TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS FOCUS ON SAFETY, PRIVACY, COMPETITION.

BREAK THOSE THREE THINGS DOWN FOR US.

HOW WOULD WE CHANGE THIS INDUSTRY TO CARE ABOUT SAFETY?

SO WE WENT THROUGH THIS EXPERIENCE BEFORE.

IN THE 1870s, THERE WERE HUGE FIRES IN U.S. CITIES THAT LED TO THE CREATION OF BUILDING CODES BECAUSE THEY REALIZE THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD BUILDINGS HAVE BEEN ENORMOUS RESPONSIBILITY, BUT WE NEED THEM, THEY'RE PART OF OUR ECONOMY.

SO WE SET UP BUILDING CODES AND MADE THE ARCHITECTS, CONTRACTORS AND ENGINEERS PERSONALLY LIABLE TO ENSURE THAT THEIR INCENTIVES WOULD BE TO BUILD BUILDINGS SAFELY.

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO HERE TO MAKE TECHNOLOGY SAFE.

WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS PRODUCTS LIKE FACEBOOK ARE OBVIOUSLY UNSAFE BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENED ON COVID BUT IT'S MORE THAN THAT.

THINK ABOUT SMART DEVICES, WHETHER IT'S ALEXA OR SMART TELEVISION OR BABY MONITORS THAT CAN BE HACKED, WHERE PEOPLE CAN BREAK INTO YOUR LIFE WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION.

THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND FACIAL RECOGNITION.

WE'RE BIASED AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR AND AGAINST WOMEN HAS REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND IN JOBS AND MORTGAGES THAT CANDIDLY ARE NOW BLAMED ON BLACKS BOXES.

WE NEED TO REQUIRE THAT EVERYONE IN TECHNOLOGY PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THEIR WORK AND THAT THE CORPORATIONS DO AS WELL.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE A PERSONAL GUARANTEE TO SHIFT THE INCENTIVES.

WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT 230 OF THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT, THAT IS PART OF THE SAFETY THING BUT IT'S A RELATIVELY SMALL PART.

WE DO NEED TO AMEND 230 BUT WE NEED TO HAVE THIS PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY THAT GOES INTO THIS.

IT HAS TO CHANGE THE CULTURE FROM THE CURRENT MOVE FAST AND BREAK THINGS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PRIVACY, THIS IS A SEPARATE CATEGORY AND THERE'S ALREADY A LOT OF PROGRESS.

THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA HAS A PRIVACY LAW.

BUT MOST IMPORTANT, APPLE, FOR THE iPHONE IN THE NEW VERSION OF THE IOS, WHICH IS THE OPERATING SYSTEM, IS IMPLEMENTING SOMETHING CALLED OPT-IN PRIVACY WHERE CORPORATIONS WILL BE REQUIRED TO ASK YOUR PERMISSION BEFORE USING YOUR DATA.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE IMPLEMENTED NATIONWIDE AND NOT JUST ON SMARTPHONES AND IT NEEDS TO BE DONE RETROACTIVELY.

CANDIDLY, I BELIEVE THIS IDEA THAT CORPORATIONS CAN CONVERT YOUR LIFE INTO DATA AND THEN USE IT TO MANIPULATE YOUR BEHAVIOR, THAT THAT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

LASTLY, WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT COMPETITION, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT ANTITRUST LAW AS THOUGH BREAKING THESE COMPANIES UP WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

IT TURNS OUT ANTITRUST LAW IS ESSENTIAL AND THERE'S A LOT OF PROGRESS HERE, BUT THERE'S MORE TO IT THAN THAT.

WE REALLY WANT TO ENCOURAGE ALTERNATIVE BUSINESS MODELS TO HAPPEN, SO WE NEED TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE STARTUPS CAN EXPERIMENT WITH DIFFERENT IDEAS.

TO DATE THESE COMPANY OR MONOPOLIES CAN BLOCK EVERYTHING.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO OPERATE MARKETS THE WAY AMAZON DOES AND THEN COMPETE WITH THE MOST SUCCESSFUL PRODUCTS IN THE MARKET BY COPYING THEM.

AMAZON DOES THAT ROUTINELY, GOOGLE DOES THAT ROUTINELY.

FACEBOOK HAS USED TECHNOLOGY TO SPY ON COMPETITORS AND COPY THEIR PRODUCTS.

NONE OF THAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED.

SHERYL SANDBERG, THE CEO OF FACEBOOK, AFTER THE ATTACK SAID I THINK THESE WERE LARGELY ORGANIZED ON PLATFORMS THAT DON'T HAVE OUR ABILITIES TO STOP HATE AND DON'T HAVE OUR STANDARDS AND DON'T HAVE OUR TRANSPARENCY.

YOUR THOUGHTS.

I THINK SHERYL SANDBERG IS ATTEMPTING TO DIFFUSE A VERY SERIOUS LEGAL PROBLEM BY GASLIGHTING EVERYONE.

THERE ARE LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF EXAMPLES OF POSTS ON FACEBOOK.

I THINK YOU CAN STILL SEE THEM TODAY, THAT WERE FOR THE ORGANIZATION OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION TAKING PLACE ON FACEBOOK.

YOU KNOW, FACEBOOK HAS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HUMAN MONITORS AND HAS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY TO BLOCK COVID DISINFORMATION AND FAILED MISERABLY RELATIVE TO THIS INSURRECTION.

THE REASON THEY DID SO IS BECAUSE FACEBOOK DOESN'T REALLY WANT TO ELIMINATE HATE SPEECH, DISINFORMATION AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

THOSE THINGS ARE A LUBRICANT FOR ITS BUSINESS.

I AT ONE TIME KNEW SHERYL SANDBERG VERY WELL AND I HAD ENORMOUS RESPECT FOR HER.

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS AT THIS MOMENT OF NATIONAL CRISIS SHE CANNOT SEE THAT THE INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PROFITS OF FACEBOOK AND THAT SHE SHOULD BE ACTUALLY MAKING THAT COMPANY TRANSPARENT.

THEY ARE NOT TRANSPARENT ANYWAY.

THEY ABSOLUTELY HIDE WHAT THEY'RE DOING FROM REGULATORS, FROM RESEARCHERS, FROM EVERYBODY.

AND AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT.

SHOULD FACEBOOK BE TRIED AS AN ACCESSORY, SO TO SPEAK?

THEY SAY, LOOK, WE'RE JUST A PLATFORM, WE'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS, EVERYTHING THAT EVERYONE SAYS.

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, ALL THE COMMENTS.

YOU SHOULD THINK OF US AS A UTILITY, THAT WE'RE LIKE THE TELEPHONE SERVICE.

WE JUST BRING YOU THE SERVICE.

WHAT HAPPENS ACROSS THE SERVICE IS UP TO OTHER PEOPLE.

SO I THINK THE CORE ISSUE I LOOK AT HERE IS THIS NOTION THAT THEY ARE A UTILITY, I THINK THERE'S ACTUALLY AN ARGUMENT THEY SHOULD BE TREATED AS A UTILITY.

IN WHICH CASE ALL OF THEIR OPERATIONS WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC SCRUTINY.

WE'D BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THEIR ALGORITHMS.

WE'D BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THE PROFIT MARGIN THEY WERE ALLOWED TO EARN AND WE'D HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF CONTROL.

THAT IS MANIFESTLY NOT TRUE TODAY BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE A WELCOME CHANGE.

I THINK THE MORE IMPORTANT POINT FOR THIS ARGUMENT IS THAT NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO PARTICIPATE IN AN INSURRECTION AGAINST THE COUNTRY.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SECTION 230 PROVIDES THAT WITH PROTECTION HERE.

THE REASON THAT I BELIEVE THAT IS TRUE IS THAT THIS ISN'T AN ISSUE OF SPEECH.

THIS IS ACTUALLY THE ISSUE OF A BUSINESS CHOICE, TO AMPLIFY DANGEROUS CONTENT SO HATE SPEECH, DISINFORMATION, CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

BECAUSE THEIR ALGORITHMS ARE DESIGNED TO MAXIMIZE ATTENTION, THAT KIND OF CONTENT GETS AMPLIFIED DISPROPORTIONATELY, HAS MUCH MORE IMPACT THERE THAN IT HAS EVER HAD IN ANY MEDIA BEFORE.

THESE COMPANIES, THERE IS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS.

THERE'S NO WAY TO DODGE THAT.

THE LAW MAY NOT HAVE A WAY OF HANDLING IT TODAY, BUT WE AS CITIZENS SHOULD HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE AND SHOULD ABSOLUTELY INSIST ON PUNISHMENTS IN OTHER FORMS AND ON REGULATION IN OTHER FORMS THAT PROTECT US FROM ANYTHING LIKE THIS HAPPENING AGAIN.

ROGER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT'S BEEN A GREAT PLEASURE.

THANKS FOR LETTING ME TALK ABOUT THIS.

> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE CONTINUE OUR SPOTLIGHT ON THE MOVIES.

NOW PUTTING A SPOTLIGHT ON FEMALE WRITER DIRECTORS BECAUSE ON TUESDAY FILMS WITH WOMEN AT THE HELM SCORED THE MOST NOMINATIONS FOR THE LONDON CRITICS CIRCLE FILM AWARDS.

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL HORROR FILM 'ST. MOORED' RECEIVED EIGHT NOMINATIONS WHILE THE POIGNANT COMING OF AGE TALE 'ROCKS' EARNED SIX NODS.

BOTH PICTURES WERE NOMINATED FOR FILM OF THE YEAR.

THE NEWS ISN'T JUST A VICTORY FOR THE FILMMAKERS THEMSELVES.

RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT MOVIES WITH FEMALE DIRECTORS EMPLOY LARGER NUMBERS OF FEMALE WRITERS, EDITORS, CINEMA GRAFRS AND COMPOSERS AS THE GEENA DAVIS INSTITUTE ON MEDIA SAYS, QUOTE, IF SHE CAN SEE IT, SHE CAN BE IT.

THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US TOMORROW NIGHT.