April 19, 2021

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> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

> THE DEFENDANT IS ON TRIAL NOT FOR BEING A POLICE OFFICER, IT'S NOT THE STATE VERSUS THE POLICE.

HE'S NOT ON TRIAL FOR WHO HE WAS.

HE'S ON TRIAL FOR WHAT HE DID.

CLOSING ARGUMENTS IN THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN FOR THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

WE ASK THE FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF JANEE HARTEAU WILL THERE EVER BE REAL REFORM?

THEN, HOW MODERN MASCULINITY IS DRIVING MEN TO TAKE THEIR OWN LIVES.

I SPEAK TO A FATHER WHO LOST HIS SON TO SUICIDE AND TO EXPERT ANDREW REINER.

ALSO ON THE PROGRAM --

WHAT SHE TAUGHT ME WAS TO FEEL AND BE PART OF THIS PLACE, NOT A VISITOR.

HARI SREENIVASAN TALKS TO THE DIRECTOR AND THE STAR OF THE CULT HIT OSCAR-NOMINATED DOCUMENTARY 'MY OCTOPUS TEACHER.'

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ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT IS UP TO THE JURY NOW AS THE PROSECUTION AND THE DEFENSE LAID OUT THEIR CLOSING ARGUMENTS IN THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN FOR THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

THIS WAS MURDER.

THE DEFENDANT IS GUILTY OF ALL THREE COUNTS, ALL OF THEM.

AND THERE'S NO EXCUSE.

START FROM THE POINT OF THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE AND SEE HOW FAR THE STATE CAN GET.

I SUBMIT TO YOU THAT THE STATE HAS FAILED TO MEET ITS BURDEN OF PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

AND THE CITY OF MINNEAPOLIS IS ON EDGE AS IT AWAITS A VERDICT.

THE NATIONAL GUARD HAS BEEN DEPLOYED TO PARTS OF THE CITY, AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE MOVING TO DISTANCE LEARNING FROM WEDNESDAY.

THOUGH THIS CASE MAY BE COMING TO A CLOSE, THE U.S. POLICING SYSTEM IS STILL ON TRIAL ON THE STREETS AND IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

RECENTLY THE POLICE SHOOTING OF 13-YEAR-OLD ADAM TOLEDO SPARKED MORE PROTESTS AS PEOPLE SHOWED THEY ARE SICK AND TIRED OF A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT THEY BELIEVE IS RIGGED AGAINST BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

LISTEN TO THIS SHOCKING STATISTIC.

THE 'NEW YORK TIMES' REPORTS THAT SINCE THE FIRST DAY OF THIS TRIAL, THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN THREE POLICE KILLINGS PER DAY.

JOINING ME NOW IS JANEE HARTEAU, THE FORMER POLICE CHIEF OF MINNEAPOLIS.

HARTEAU IS CURRENTLY PRESIDENT OF AN APP THAT HELPS FIRST RESPONDERS DEAL WITH VULNERABLE INDIVIDUALS.

SHE'S JOINING ME FROM SARASOTA, FLORIDA.

CHIEF HARTEAU, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE.

YOU'VE HEARD THE IMPORTANT BITS OF THE TRIAL.

YOU'VE HEARD BITS OF THE CLOSING ARGUMENTS, ESSENTIALLY THE STATE SAYING THIS IS NOT AGAINST THE POLICE.

IT'S NOT THE STATE AGAINST THE POLICE.

IT'S AGAINST A PERSON WHO DID NOT USE DUTY OF CARE AND WHO FULFILLS THE CHARGES RELAYED.

THE DEFENSE SAYING, YOU KNOW, PRESUME INNOCENCE AND THAT THERE IS REASONABLE DOUBT.

WHAT DO YOU FEEL RIGHT NOW AS IT GOES TO THE JURY?

I FEEL PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT THE PROSECUTION HAS DONE AN OUTSTANDING JOB.

I AM INCREDIBLY PROUD OF THE MEN AND WOMEN, LEADERSHIP CERTAINLY IN THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT HAVE TESTIFIED.

I AM NOT SURPRISED AT ALL THAT THEY STOOD UP AND SAID THIS WAS WRONG AND DENOUNCED THE ACTIONS OF DEREK CHAUVIN.

HE'S CLEARLY THE EXCEPTION AND NOT THE RULE AND HE TARNISHED HIS BADGE AND EVERYTHING IT STANDS FOR.

IN A SENSE, THAT OF COURSE IS WHAT CHIEF ARRADONDO SAID.

AND THE PROSECUTOR IN HIS CLOSING ARGUMENTS QUOTED THE CURRENT CHIEF.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

REMEMBER DURING OPENING STATEMENT, DURING OPENING STATEMENT COUNSEL SAID THAT THE DEFENDANT FOLLOWED THE RULES AND FOLLOWED HIS TRAINING?

DID YOU HEAR EVIDENCE OF THAT?

DID YOU HEAR EVIDENCE OF THAT FROM THE STAND?

OR DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT?

THE CHIEF OF POLICE TESTIFIED HE VIOLATED THEIR USE OF FORCE POLICY.

HE VIOLATED THEIR DE-ESCALATION POLICY.

HE VIOLATED THE DUTY TO RENDER EMERGENCY AID.

NO.

YOU'VE HEARD THE TRAINER, WE DON'T TRAIN THIS.

THIS IS NOT WHO WE ARE.

NO.

THAT REPRESENTATION WAS SIMPLY WRONG.

THAT'S JUST A STORY.

WHAT THE DEFENDANT DID WAS NOT POLICING.

WHAT THE DEFENDANT DID WAS AN ASSAULT.

CHIEF HARTEAU, FIRST OFF, WOULD YOU HAVE TAKEN THE STAND AND TESTIFIED AGAINST ONE OF YOUR OFFICERS?

ABSOLUTELY.

THIS WAS A SHOCK TO CONSCIENCE.

IT WENT AGAINST EVERYTHING WE DO ON A DAILY BASIS, SANCTITY OF LIFE AND PROCEDURAL JUSTICE FRANKLY WERE THE TENANTS OF MY TENURE AND THE WAY WE OPERATE ON A DAILY BASIS.

OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THERE'S THAT EXCEPTION, BUT THAT'S WHO THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT IS.

LOOK, THE STATISTICS SHOW, THE FACTS SHOW, THE CASES SHOW THAT GENERALLY POLICE DO NOT GET HELD ACCOUNTABLE, AND IF THEY ARE, THEY DO NOT GET CONVICTED.

BUT WE HAVE SEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY CRACK, AS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, IN THAT BLUE LINE, WITH NOT ONLY THE CHIEF TESTIFYING FOR THE PROSECUTION, BUT ALSO CHAUVIN'S SUPERIOR, OTHER MEMBERS OF THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT SIGNED A LETTER.

IN OTHER WORDS, LOTS OF THEM TESTIFIED AGAINST HIM.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS A PERMANENT CRACK IN POLICE STANDING UP FOR THOSE WHO THEY KNOW ARE BAD APPLES?

I DO.

AS WE HIRE A BETTER QUALITY OF OFFICER, AS WE LOOK TO THE ENTIRE SYSTEM, THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, WHEN I WAS STILL THE POLICE CHIEF, THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY MOVED AWAY FROM THE GRAND JURY PROCESS AND TOOK ON THE CASE OF THE OFFICER-INVOLVED INCIDENT HIMSELF.

SO WE'RE HAVING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE COME TOGETHER.

IT BENEFITS THE HONORABLE MEN AND WOMEN THAT SERVE OUR COUNTRY IN POLICING EVERY DAY AND THE COMMUNITIES THEY SERVE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE POLICE LEGITIMACY IN THAT PROCESS.

BAD COPS CAN'T GET AWAY WITH THAT.

COPS WHO ARE USING EXCESSIVE FORCE AND DEADLY FORCE AND FRANKLY MURDERING PEOPLE LIKE DEREK CHAUVIN AND GEORGE FLOYD, THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.

OBVIOUSLY WE CLEARLY KNOW WHERE YOU STAND GIVEN WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID.

I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE THE FIRST FEMALE CHIEF OF POLICE IN MINNEAPOLIS.

YOU ALSO HAD TO RESIGN.

THERE WAS A POLICE SHOOTING UNDER YOUR WATCH.

IT WAS A BLACK OFFICER AND A WHITE WOMAN, I THINK A TOURIST FROM AUSTRALIA.

WHAT HAPPENED?

AND WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO BE CHIEF WHEN THESE TERRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN?

IT'S REALLY HARD TO EXPLAIN THE ENORMOUS SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY YOU FEEL FOR THE ACTIONS OF ONE OF YOUR OFFICERS.

THEY'RE MY FAMILY MEMBER AND NO ONE CAN BELIEVE THEIR FAMILY MEMBER CAN ACT SO EGREGIOUSLY.

THIS WAS AN INCIDENT IN WHICH THE OFFICERS RESPONDED TO A 911 CALL AND THIS FEMALE WAS ACTUALLY THE 911 CALLER.

SO APPARENTLY, THE OFFICER BELIEVED SHE WAS A THREAT.

HE WAS STARTLED AND HE SHOT ONE SHOT THROUGH THE WINDOW FROM INSIDE HIS SQUAD CAR, INAPPROPRIATE.

ANOTHER CASE OF THIS WAS NOT AN APPROPRIATE TACTIC, THIS IS NOT HOW WE TEACH PEOPLE.

THE COMMUNITY WAS, OF COURSE, UPSET.

I DO FEEL LIKE ALL OF LEADERSHIP AND THE OFFICERS INVOLVED SHOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE, BUT THERE ARE CHALLENGES WHEN WE'RE SIMPLY REMOVING PEOPLE AND WE'RE NOT FIXING SOME OF THE SYSTEMIC ISSUES WE'VE HAD IN POLICING.

CHIEF, THAT BRINGS ME STRAIGHT TO THE CASE OF DEREK CHAUVIN.

I DON'T BELIEVE THIS WAS BROUGHT IN THE COURTROOM DURING THE TRIAL, BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT HE WAS MOVED AROUND, BECAUSE HE DID HAVE, I THINK, MORE THAN 20 COMPLAINTS ABOUT HIM IN HIS VARIOUS PREVIOUS LOCATIONS BEFORE HE ENDED UP IN MINNEAPOLIS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

DO YOU THINK NOW POLICE UNIONS, WHO VERY MUCH PROTECT THEIR OWN AND THE GENERAL, YOU KNOW, STRUCTURE AROUND POLICING WILL STOP THAT?

WE'VE SEEN HOW IT HAPPENED IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WITH THE PRIESTS WHO ABUSE KIDS.

INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH THE SITUATION, THEY WERE MOVED AROUND FROM CHURCH TO CHURCH TO KEEP THIS PREDATORY BEHAVIOR AND THIS ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR UP.

WILL THIS CHANGE, DO YOU THINK, IN MINNEAPOLIS, IN THE UNITED STATES?

I THINK IT WILL.

FOR YEARS I HAVE DISCUSSED THE CHALLENGES OF NOT JUST HAVING THE RESPONSIBILITY OF DISCIPLINING OFFICERS AS A POLICE CHIEF, BUT I DIDN'T HAVE THE FULL AUTHORITY.

WE HAVE AN ARBITRATION PROCESS THAT ALLOWS A TERMINATION CASE TO GO BEFORE AN ARBITRATOR WHO IN 50-60% OF ALL CASES IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA, OVER HALF WOULD SIDE WITH THE EMPLOYEE AND INSTEAD OF A TERMINATION, WOULD GIVE THEM TIME OFF WITHOUT PAY AND MAYBE SOME REMEDIAL TRAINING.

WE ALSO NEED TO ADDRESS THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES WE HAVE WITH OUR OWN OFFICERS.

THE THINGS THEY SEE AND GO THROUGH ON A DAILY BASIS ARE NOT ADDRESSED PROPERLY.

THAT IN NO WAY IS AN EXCUSE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO ADDRESS WHAT POLICING DOES TO AN INDIVIDUAL.

I MEAN, AGAIN, IN CHAUVIN'S CASE, WE UNDERSTAND THAT HE WAS A FIELD TRAINING OFFICER, HELPING TO TRAIN AND EVALUATE OFFICERS COMING OUT OF THE ACADEMY.

THIS IS A GUY WHO HAD BEEN MOVED FROM A SERIES OF COMPLAINTS TO FINALLY ENDING UP IN YOUR POLICE DEPARTMENT WHERE HE WAS A FIELD TRAINING OFFICER.

YOU YOURSELF HAD SORT OF, YOU HAD SORT OF REFORMS, YOU CALLED IT MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT 2.0.

WHY AREN'T THE REFORMS WORKING?

WE HEAR SO MUCH ABOUT HOW REFORMS ARE CONSTANTLY BEING PUT IN, BUT THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE WORKING.

I GUESS I WOULD CHALLENGE THE IDEA THAT THEY'RE NOT WORKING.

IT TAKES TIME.

THE POLICING AND THE CULTURE AND HOW PEOPLE OPERATE HAVE BEEN CREATED OVER THOSE CENTURIES AND DECADES.

SO IT TAKES TIME.

SO I BECAME CHIEF IN 2012.

WE BEGAN MANY PROGRESSIVE INITIATIVES, IMPLICIT BIAS TRAINING, PROCEDURAL JUSTICE, NOT JUST IN TRAINING BUT THREAD THROUGHOUT EVERYTHING THAT WE DO.

I PUT IN THE SANCTITY OF LIFE, THE DUTY TO INTERVENE.

TWO THINGS HAPPEN.

ONE, BUDGETS GET CUT AND YOU NO LONGER CAN DO THE THINGS THAT CONNECT YOU WITH THE COMMUNITY AND MAKE YOU IN A POSITION WHERE YOU CAN CREATE RELATIONSHIPS AND BUILD TRUST.

TRUST AND RELATIONSHIPS AREN'T BUILT IN A CRISIS.

IT HAS TO BE DONE BEFORE.

IF OFFICERS ONLY HAVE TIME TO HANDLE 911 CALLS AND THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO THOSE THINGS IN THE COMMUNITY, THAT IMPACTS TRUST.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO ALLOW IT TIME TO WORK.

IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS IT'S NOT WORKING.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW THINGS COULD BE.

IT'S LIKE THE CRIME THAT DIDN'T OCCUR.

WE CAN ONLY TRACK THE CRIMES THAT OCCUR.

WE CAN'T TRACK THE ONES THAT DIDN'T.

EXCEPT THAT THERE ARE SOME REALLY SHOCKING STATISTICS EVEN IN MINNEAPOLIS, BARELY TEN MILES FROM WHERE THE TRIAL IS BEING HELD WE HAVE THE KILLING OF DAUNTE WRIGHT.

WE'VE GOT ALL THESE DREADFUL STATISTICS SINCE THE CHAUVIN CASE BEGAN MARCH 29th.

AT LEAST 69 PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

SINCE 2014, ABOUT THREE PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY POLICE EACH DAY AND MOST OF THESE MEN ARE BLACK OR LATINO.

BLACK PEOPLE ARE THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE KILLED BY POLICE THAN WHITE PEOPLE.

AGAIN, THERE'S A MAJOR PROBLEM.

RACISM IS OBVIOUSLY THE BASIS OF THE PROBLEM.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU, DO YOU AGREE THAT'S THE BASIS OF THE PROBLEM?

I DO THINK AS A COUNTRY WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH RACISM.

IT'S A SOCIETAL ISSUE.

WE HIRE FROM SOCIETY, SO IT ISN'T SHOCKING TO ME TO SEE THAT YOU HAVE THAT WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS REINVENT AND THE SOCIETY AGREE TO WHAT 21st CENTURY POLICING SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND WE NEED TO DIVERSIFY OUR ORGANIZATIONS.

WE CAN'T DO THAT AS LONG AS THIS PERCEPTION IS ALL ABOUT LAW AND ORDER AND HOW WE OPERATE.

WE NEED PEOPLE OF COLOR AND WOMEN TO FEEL COMFORTABLE TO BE A PART OF OUR ORGANIZATIONS.

THESE ARE SYSTEMIC INEQUALITIES THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED OVER COUNTLESS DECADES AS WELL AND THAT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME TO CHANGE.

I THINK THIS HIGHLIGHTS THAT WE NEED TO CHANGE AND WE'RE STARTING TO COME TOGETHER TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT WHERE TO BEGIN.

SO YOU'VE HEARD THE CHANT, OBVIOUSLY, WHICH I DON'T THINK IT STARTED BUT IT GOT LOUDER AFTER GEORGE FLOYD WAS KILLED, DEFUND THE POLICE.

IT WASN'T GET RID OF THE POLICE ENTIRELY.

IT WAS STOP POURING MONEY INTO POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND INTO THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ISSUES THAT ARE NOT BEING DEALT WITH, BECAUSE YOU'RE JUST POURING MORE MONEY INTO IT.

KIND OF SEPARATE CERTAIN POLICE ACTIONS FROM WHAT SHOULD BE COMMUNITY SERVICE ACTIONS AND CALLS, LIKE MENTAL HEALTH CALLS AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

I BELIEVE WE NEED BOTH ENTITIES TO BE PROPERLY FUNDED.

SO ONE WE LOOK AT WHAT WE WANT POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO DO, HOW MUCH WE WANT THEM TO ENGAGE WITH THE COMMUNITY, OUR POLICE ACTIVITIES, LEAGUES, ALL OF OUR COMMUNITY PROGRAMS NEED TO BE APPROPRIATELY FUNDED.

AND WE STILL NEED TO MANAGE CRIME, SO WE NEED ENOUGH FUNDING AND POLICE OFFICERS TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

YOU CAN'T EXPECT POLICE OFFICERS TO HANDLE EVERY FAILURE.

WHEN PEOPLE HAVE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, THEY HAVE LONG-TERM PROBLEMS, THEY'RE LIVING IN GENERATIONAL POVERTY, THESE ARE THINGS POLICE CAN'T ADDRESS AND WE NEED RESOURCES FOR PEOPLE AND THEY NEED TO BE PROPERLY FUNDED AS WELL.

I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE BOTH.

WE CAN'T SIMPLY DEFUND THE POLICE WITHOUT A PLAN IN PLACE OF WHO'S GOING TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES NOW THAT YOU CAN NO LONGER JUST CALL THE POLICE WITH WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE FIXED.

AGAIN, WE HAVE SEEN CONCURRENTLY WITH THIS TRIAL MORE MASS SHOOTINGS, WE'VE SEEN -- WE JUST KEEP SEEING THESE SHOOTINGS AND WE KNOW GUNS ARE LIBERALLY AVAILABLE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE STATISTICS, AGAIN, ARE REALLY SHOCKING.

WE CAN SEE HOW MANY INNOCENTS ARE HARMED, ARE KILLED BECAUSE OF THIS.

THE NRA AND THE GUN RIGHTS PEOPLE SAY IT'S NOT GUNS, IT'S PEOPLE WHO KILL, OR THAT MORE GUNS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOOD GUYS MAKE IT A SAFER PLACE.

WHERE DO YOU STAND AFTER ALL THESE MASS SHOOTINGS THAT HAVE JUST BECOME PART OF THE BACKGROUND NOISE NOW?

THIS HAS BEEN A CONCERN OF MINE AND WORK THAT I'VE DONE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS IN OFFICE AND CONGRESSWOMAN GABBY GIFFORDS.

WE HAVE TOO MUCH ACCESS TO GUNS.

THAT'S THE CHALLENGE.

ANY TIME YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT ANY MEASURES TO PREVENT THAT ACCESS, IT'S ABOUT CONTROL.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE STORIES THAT YOU SEE, THERE ARE MORE STORIES IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY SOMEONE WITH A GUN, NOT SOMEBODY WHO'S PROTECTING THEMSELVES, BUT SOMEBODY WHO IS OUT TO DO HARM.

IT'S A VERY COMPLEX SCENARIO, BUT THE REALITY IS THERE'S TOO MUCH ACCESS AND WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, A LOT OF THE LOOPHOLES THAT ALLOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE GUNS THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE GUNS.

OTHER COUNTRIES DO NOT HAVE THAT TYPE OF ACCESS TO GUNS LIKE THE UNITED STATES DOES.

YEAH.

I'M SITTING IN ONE OF THOSE COUNTRIES THAT DOESN'T HAVE THAT KIND OF ACCESS AND THAT DOES HAVE LAWS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF A MASS SHOOTING.

THEY THEN DECIDED THE LAWS NEEDED TO BE CHANGE AND SENSIBLE GUN CONTROL PUT IN.

I WAS REALLY STUNNED TO READ THAT, YOU KNOW, GUNS ACCOUNT FOR MORE SUICIDES IN THE UNITED STATES THAN HOMICIDES.

DID YOU COME ACROSS THAT WHEN YOU WERE CHIEF?

WE HAD MORE STREET VIOLENCE THAN WE DID, BUT WE DID SEE THE INCREASE IN SUICIDES, OF COURSE.

IT'S SIMPLE, IT'S QUICK.

THERE AGAIN, IT'S ABOUT ACCESS.

IF MY DAD HAS GUNS IN THE HOME AND I'M HAVING CHALLENGES AND I WANT TO TAKE MY LIFE, THERE'S THAT POTENTIAL THERE.

AND IF THE GUN'S NOT THERE, THE POTENTIAL'S NOT THERE.

I JUST WANT TO END BY BRINGING IT BACK TO THE TRIAL.

WHAT IF DEREK CHAUVIN IS ACQUITTED?

WE ALREADY SEE MINNEAPOLIS, THE STATE PUTTING IN NATIONAL GUARD, PUTTING SOME SCHOOLS BACK TO ONLINE FROM HOME, DISTANCE LEARNING STARTING ON WEDNESDAY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE VERY VOCAL AND I THINK THINGS ARE GOING TO BE, FRANKLY, DANGEROUS FOR MANY PEOPLE IF THE RESULT ISN'T WHAT THEY WANT.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF UPTICK IN 911 CALLS AND ACTIVITY REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT TURNS OUT TO BE.

THE CHALLENGE FOR ALL OF US MOVING FORWARD IS, THIS IS THEN ABOUT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND WE HAVE TO ASK IF IT WORKS AND WHAT WE NEED TO CHANGE WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

THIS ISN'T SIMPLY JUST A POLICE ISSUE.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE LOOKED UPON AS POLICE ARE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH THINGS AND I THINK THAT'S DETRIMENTAL.

ON THAT NOTE, CHIEF JANEE HARTEAU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

NOW WE CONTINUE THAT CONVERSATION ON THE RISING SUICIDE CRISIS.

ACCORDING TO THE CDC, SUICIDE RATES HAVE SURGED BY 33% BETWEEN 1999 AND 2019.

MEN ARE SUFFERING IN SILENCE.

IT IS A GLOBAL PROBLEM.

HERE IN THE U.K., SUICIDE IS THE NUMBER ONE KILLER OF MEN UNDER 45.

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS BRITISH JOURNALIST MICHAEL McCARTHY.

HIS SON, ROSS, TOOK HIS OWN LIFE IN FEBRUARY AS HE BATTLED WITH DEPRESSION IN THE MIDST OF PANDEMIC LOCKDOWNS.

ALSO WITH US IS ANDREW REINER.

HIS BOOK 'BETTER BOYS, BETTER MEN' EXAMINES HOW MODERN MASCULINITY IS HURTING MEN.

GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

MIKE McCARTHY, I KNOW IT'S PAINFUL, BUT HOW ARE YOU DEALING?

HOW IS YOUR FAMILY COPING WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR SON, YOU KNOW, JUST IN FEBRUARY?

WE'RE ALL DEVASTATED.

THERE'S A MASSIVE VOID IN OUR LIVES.

ROSS WAS ONLY 31.

HE WAS A WARM-HEARTED, LOVING, FUNNY MAN WHO WAS DEVOTED TO HIS FAMILY.

AND WHAT WE'RE FINDING NOW IS THAT, I GUESS, WE'RE MOVING AT A DIFFERENT PACE, EACH MEMBER OF HIS FAMILY.

SOME DAYS ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS.

IN GENERAL, HIS MOM, MYSELF, HIS BROTHER TOM AND SISTER LAURA ARE FEELING DESOLATE.

WE'RE LOST.

WE'RE SLOWLY COMING TO REALIZE THAT OUR LIVES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT HE WAS DEALING WITH AND THAT HE FELT HE COULDN'T GET HELP FOR?

ROSS HAD FOUGHT FOR A VERY LONG TIME WITH SEVERE DEPRESSION, MORE THAN TEN YEARS.

AND HE TRIED PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING.

SOME THINGS SEEMED TO WORK BETTER THAN OTHERS.

IN THE END, HE HAD TO PAY FOR AND FIND HIS OWN COUNSELLOR BECAUSE THE COUNSELLOR THAT WAS PROVIDED DIDN'T SEEM TO WORK FOR HIM.

AT CHRISTMAS WHEN WE WERE ALLOWED TO MEET AS A FAMILY WHEN THE COVID RESTRICTIONS WERE LIFTED TEMPORARILY, WE CELEBRATED THE FACT THAT ROSS HAD SEEMED TO HAVE MADE EXCELLENT PROGRESS.

HE SEEMED, IN HIS WORDS, TO FINALLY HAVE CRACKED IT.

AND THE COUNSELLOR THAT HE FOUND, HE PARTICULARLY RELATED TO.

AND AS WE AS A FAMILY DISCUSSED, THE HIGH POINTS OF 2020, WE ALL AGREED THAT ROSS'S PROGRESS IN HIS MENTAL HEALTH WAS THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO US AS A FAMILY.

BUT IT CAME BACK.

AND I THINK WE'LL NEVER KNOW FOR SURE, BUT I THINK THAT WAS THE FINAL STRAW AS FAR AS ROSS WAS CONCERNED.

WE KNOW HOW HARD HE TRIED.

WE KNOW HOW MUCH WE TALKED TO HIM.

WE KNOW HOW MUCH WE'VE LISTENED TO HIM.

WE ARE SO DEVASTATED BY THE FACT THAT HE WAS DUE TO GET MARRIED AND COULDN'T BECAUSE OF COVID AND HE HAD A LITTLE SON CHARLIE, WHO'S JUST 3 YEARS OLD.

ROSS WROTE QUITE A LONG FAREWELL LETTER IN WHICH HE ADDRESSED EACH MEMBER OF THE FAMILY.

I'VE ALWAYS FOUND THAT SHOCKING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY.

SOCIETY ISN'T SHOCKED ENOUGH TO WANT TO MAKE RADICAL CHANGES IN THE WAY THAT WE DEAL WITH MENTAL HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY AND AROUND THE GLOBE.

HIS WORDS TO HIS SISTER LAURA.

THE SUPPORT IS JUST NOT THERE.

THE THING THAT FRUSTRATED AND CONFUSED AND ANGERED ROSS MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE WAS THAT HE WAS WAITING FOR THERAPY AND WAS PUT ON A WAITING LIST FOR SIX MONTHS.

WE HAVE NO ANGER IN OUR HEARTS.

WE HAVE NO BLAME, BUT WE'D LIKE TO KNOW WHY SOMEONE WHO'S EFFECTIVELY TERMINALLY ILL IN THE SAME WAY THAT HE MIGHT HAVE HAD TERMINAL CANCER, WAS PUT ON WAITING LIST FOR SIX MONTHS.

IT IS SO TRAGIC.

I CAN OBVIOUSLY HEAR YOUR PAIN AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU TELLING THE STORY, BECAUSE IT'S SO IMPORTANT AND SO MANY MEN OUT THERE ARE IN THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER.

I WANT TO ASK ANDREW REINER, WHO HAS WRITTEN THIS BOOK, I MEAN, YOU CAN HEAR MIKE'S STORY, YOU CAN HEAR WHAT HAPPENED TO ROSS, BUT THE STATISTICS THAT ARE QUOTED IN THE BOOK, IN THE UNITED STATES SUICIDE IS A STATISTICALLY FAR HIGHER KILLER OF MEN THAN WOMEN IN EVERY AGE GROUP, ACCORDING TO THE CDC.

SUICIDE RATES IN MEN ARE JUST OVER TWICE AS HIGH AS FOR WOMEN ACCORDING TO OUR DATA.

YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING THESE ISSUES.

WHAT SPARKED YOUR INTEREST AND HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THESE HUGE SPIKES WHEN IT COMES TO MEN AND SUICIDE NOW, TODAY?

I JUST WANT TO SAY FIRST OF ALL I'M SO VERY SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS.

AS THE FATHER OF A SON, THE PAIN IS UNIMAGINABLE.

I CAN'T EVEN FATHOM IT.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR STORY TODAY BECAUSE THIS IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT STORY FOR US OF WHO WORK WITH BOYS AND MEN AND WHO HAVE CHILDREN.

WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE PANDEMIC IS THAT THE PANDEMIC REALLY, IT'S PULLING BACK THE CURTAIN ON A MASSIVE PROBLEM THAT'S ALREADY THERE.

A LOT OF TIMES WHEN IT COMES TO BOYS AND MEN WITH DEPRESSION ESPECIALLY AND TO SOME EXTENT ANXIETY, BUT MORE DEPRESSION, WE TEND TO DOWNPLAY IT.

IT'S TRUE IN THE STATES.

IT'S TRUE IN THE U.K.

AUSTRALIA ARE ALSO LEADING THE WAY WITH A LOT OF RESEARCH AS WELL AS THE U.K.

BUT WHAT OFTEN HAPPENS IS THAT WE TEND TO THINK THAT THE RATES OF DEPRESSION HISTORICALLY YOU COULD EASILY GO ON AND GOOGLE DEPRESSION IN MEN AND WOMEN AND MUCH OF THE INFORMATION YOU WILL FIND SAY THAT WOMEN EXPERIENCE IT AT A RATE OF 2-1.

THERE'S MORE RESEARCH COMING OUT THAT SHOWS, IN FACT, WHEN YOU USE AN DIFFERENT METRIC FOR GAUGING DEPRESSION IN MEN BECAUSE IT OFTEN LOOKS DIFFERENT IN BOYS AND MEN THAN IT DOES IN GIRLS AND WOMEN.

WHEN YOU USE THAT METRIC AND COMBINE IT WITH THE MORE TRADITIONAL ONES THAT REALLY KIND OF GAUGE DEPRESSION IN WOMEN, YOU SEE THAT GAP CLOSING DRAMATICALLY.

SO THE PROBLEM IS THAT, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW THERE'S BEEN A LOT WRITTEN ABOUT HOW YOUNG MEN AND MEN OFTEN ARE RELUCTANT TO SEEK HELP.

THAT'S VERY TRUE.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM ALSO IS THE WAYS THAT WE ARE REALLY SPEAKING TO BOYS AND THAT WE'RE NOT SPEAKING TO BOYS AND TO YOUNG MEN.

THE DEPRESSION IS VERY REAL.

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU DURING THE COURSE OF MY RESEARCH EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THAT GIRLS AND WOMEN HAVE HIGHER RATES OF ANXIETY, I THINK BOYS AND MEN ARE CLOSING THE GAP AS WELL.

IN YOUR STUDY, YOU CAN SEE THAT MEN, BOYS DON'T HAVE THE SAME FRIENDSHIP GROUP THEY CAN REACH OUT TO.

THEY'RE STOIC.

THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO TELL OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT IT.

IT'S SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT WHAT GIRLS DO.

MAYBE THEY REACH OUT MORE.

WOMEN MAYBE REACH OUT MORE AND HAVE FRIEND GROUPS OR FAMILY THAT MAYBE THEY CAN TALK TO MORE.

WHAT KIND OF AWARENESS RAISING NEEDS TO HAPPEN THERE?

SURE.

THERE WAS THIS COMMON THREAD THAT I FOUND THAT REALLY SURPRISED ME WHEN I DID THE RESEARCH FOR MY BOOK.

SO OFTEN I'D BE GOING TO CLASSROOMS AND TALKING TO BOYS IN HIGH SCHOOL OR YOUNG MEN IN COLLEGE.

I WOULD TALK TO MEN IN THEIR 20s AND 30s AND 40s.

I'D SAY, WHO DO YOU GO TO FOR I EMOTIONAL SUPPORT?

THEY ALWAYS SAID I'VE GOT ONE OR TWO CLOSE GUY FRIENDS.

OKAY.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

THEY ALWAYS SAY THE THINGS THEY WERE SHARING WITH THEIR CLOSE MALE FRIENDS IS THAT IT WAS WHAT I CALL TARGETED TRANSPARENCY.

CAN I JUST TURN TO YOU, MICHAEL AND ASK YOU, BECAUSE IN THE LETTER THAT ROSS LEFT, HE ALSO TALKED ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND THE LOCKDOWN.

HE SAID, I GUESS THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LOCK SOMEONE UP FOR LONG ENOUGH.

CLEARLY IT HAD BEGUN TO GET HIM DOWN.

WE KNOW HOW THE PANDEMIC HAS EXACERBATED MENTAL HEALTH AT THE SAME TIME AS PEOPLE NOT HAVING SUCH ACCESS TO MENTAL HEALTH PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE LOCKDOWN AFFECTED YOUR SON?

COVID DIDN'T KILL MY SON, BUT I THINK THAT THE RESTRICTIONS ADDED TO THE WEIGHT OF THE BURDEN THAT HE WAS ALREADY CARRYING.

HE WAS DUE TO MARRY HIS FIANCEE LAST YEAR AND THAT COULDN'T GO AHEAD BECAUSE OF THE RESTRICTIONS.

THEY TRIED TO REARRANGE IT FOR THIS MONTH AND THEN THERE WAS UNCERTAINTY AT THE LAST MINUTE AS TO WHETHER THAT COULD GO AHEAD OR NOT.

ROSS WAS A VERY SPORTING CHARACTER.

HE LIKES TENNIS AND FOOTBALL.

HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE LOCAL GYM.

THE GYM HAD CLOSED.

HE LIKES NOTHING BETTER THAN TO TAKE CHARLIE TO SWIMMING CLASSES AND THEY WERE CLOSED.

AS A FAMILY, WE MET AT CHRISTMAS FACE TO FACE FOR THE LAST TIME WITH ROSS AND WE SPOKE TO HIM EVERY DAY ON FACETIME, BUT IT WASN'T THE SAME.

ROSS WAS VERY MUCH DEVOTED TO HIS FAMILY AND WE COULDN'T SEE HIM FACE TO FACE.

THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO ROSS.

WE DID DISCUSS THE PROBLEMS THAT HE HAD, BUT ONE THING THAT I'D LIKE TO SAY IF I MAY IS THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH VULNERABILITY IN MEN.

VULNERABILITY IS NOT A WEAKNESS.

WE SHOULD SPEAK OPENLY ABOUT SUICIDE.

WE SHOULD SAY THE WORD.

IT'S NO WORSE THAN CANCER.

WE ARE STILL USING THE LANGUAGE OF THE DARK AGES.

IN THE U.K. WE STILL SAY 'COMMITTING SUICIDE.'

THAT GOES BACK TO A SEEM WHEN IT WAS ILLEGAL.

THAT ILLEGAL STATUS WAS LIFTED IN 1961, BUT WE'RE STILL USING THE SAME LANGUAGE AS THOUGH IT'S THE SAME AS COMMITTING MURDER OR COMMITTING RAPE.

IF MY SON DID ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD, HE DID NOT COMMIT A CRIME.

WE HAVE TO BE OPEN ABOUT IT.

WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

I WANT POLITICAL LEADERS TO ENGAGE IN IT.

WHERE IS THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE?

WHERE IS THE PUBLIC DISCUSSION?

SUICIDE, ALTHOUGH GREAT ADVANCES HAVE BEEN MADE IN OPENING UP AND TALKING ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH, THERE ISN'T REALLY ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH DISCUSSION, PUBLIC DISCUSSION ABOUT SEVERE DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY, PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUNG MEN.

AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT THE BIGGEST THREAT TO A MAN IN THE U.K. UNDER THE AGE OF 45 ISN'T CANCER, IT'S NOT ROAD ACCIDENTS, IT'S HIMSELF.

THAT I HAVE ALWAYS FOUND A SHOCKING STATISTIC, NOT JUST SINCE ROSS DIED.

I'VE ALWAYS FOUND THAT SHOCKING.

I DON'T KNOW WHY SOCIETY ISN'T SHOCKED ENOUGH TO WANT TO MAKE RADICAL CHANGES IN THE WAY THAT WE DEAL WITH MENTAL HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY AND AROUND THE GLOBE.

IT IS A SHOCKING STATISTIC.

EVEN WHEN I ASKED THE FORMER CHIEF OF POLICE IN MINNEAPOLIS, YOU KNOW, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT THAT SUICIDES ARE MORE PREVALENT THAN HOMICIDES WHEN IT COMES TO GUN VIOLENCE, FOR INSTANCE.

MIKE, YOU'VE BEEN A BROADCASTER.

YOU'VE BEEN A JOURNALIST.

YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE DEALING WITH THE POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IF YOU COULD TALK TO THE PRIME MINISTER OR WHOEVER IS THE RELEVANT MINISTER TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

WHAT IS THE KEY THING YOU THINK IS 100% NECESSARY?

YOU KNOW, WE'RE HEARING IT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND IN MANY, OF COURSE THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE.

THERE IS A CRISIS ACROSS THE GLOBE.

800,000 PEOPLE EVERY YEAR TAKE THEIR OWN LIVES.

IMAGINE THAT OVER A SPAN OF TEN YEARS.

IMAGINE THE PAINS THAT THEY LEAVE BEHIND.

IMAGINE THE RIPPLE EFFECT.

IMAGINE ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO FEEL SO HELPLESS THAT THEY TRY TO TAKE THEIR OWN LIVES BUT ARE CAUGHT IN TIME.

JUST THINK OF THOSE NUMBERS FOR A SECOND.

I DON'T BELIEVE -- BECAUSE I'M AN OPTIMIST, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT POLITICIANS THINK THERE ARE NO VOTES IN THIS.

I'M SURE THEY WOULD LIKE TO DO SOMETHING.

I'M SURE THEY WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THE DEBATE AND MAKE REAL IMPROVEMENTS FOR THE FUTURE, BECAUSE WE CAN'T GO ON LIKE THIS.

WE DON'T FEAR A SUICIDE PANDEMIC BECAUSE WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT IT ENOUGH, BUT IT'S THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

MICHAEL McCARTHY, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

YOU HAVE OUR DEEPEST CONDOLENCES.

IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE IN NEED OF HELP, THERE ARE RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO YOU.

REACH OUT TO THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR SUICIDE PREVENTION OR BEFRIENDERS WORLD WIDE.

IF YOU'RE IN THE UNITED STATES, REACH OUT TO THE NATIONAL SUICIDE PREVENTION LIFELINE.

> NOW WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A DIVE INTO FREEZING WATERS WITH A MAN WHO OVERCAME HIS OWN MENTAL HEALTH STRUGGLES THROUGH THE HEALING POWER OF THE OCEAN.

NATURAL HISTORY FILMMAKER CRAIG FOSTER WAS BURNT OUT AND DEPRESSED WHEN HE DECIDED TO PUT HIS CAREER ON HOLD.

HE TOOK UP DAILY DIVING AT HOME IN CAPE TOWN, SOUTH AFRICA.

HE STRUCK UP AN UNUSUAL FRIENDSHIP WITH A WILD OCTOPUS.

THE FILM WAS SHOT OVER EIGHT YEARS.

IT'S CALLED 'MY OCTOPUS TEACHER.'

IT DOCUMENTS HOW THIS UNIQUE BOND TAUGHT HIM VALUABLE LESSONS.

LIFE.

I HAD THIS CRAZY IDEA.

WHAT HAPPENS IF I JUST WENT EVERY DAY?

♪♪♪

THE FILM WON A BEST DOCUMENTARY BAFTA AND IT IS NOMINATED FOR AN OSCAR.

HERE IS OUR HARI SREENIVASAN TALKING TO DIVER AND PRODUCER CRAIG FOSTER AND THE PRODUCER PIPPA EHRLICH.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

CRAIG, TAKE US BACK TO THAT FIRST DAY WHEN YOU, WELL, MET THIS OCTOPUS.

YEAH.

IT'S QUITE A LONG TIME AGO NOW.

SO SHE WAS IN A VERY STRANGE POSITION.

SHE WAS HOLDING ALL THOSE SHELLS AND STONES OVER HER PROTECTING HER.

I AT THAT TIME DIDN'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WAS THIS SOME STRANGE SORT OF OCTOPUS.

THEN SUDDENLY SHE LET THEM GO.

IT WAS THIS MAGICAL MOMENT.

I EVENTUALLY GOT TO KNOW HER SO WELL.

A REALLY UNUSUAL INDIVIDUAL.

PIPPA, HOW DO YOU GET INVOLVED IN THIS?

YOU'RE SWIMMING ALONG WITH CRAIG.

HE STARTS TELLING YOU THIS TALE THAT HE'S BEEN SHOOTING AN OCTOPUS FOR DAYS AND DAYS AND DAYS?

HE KIND OF MENTIONED VAGUE THINGS TO ME ABOUT THIS OCTOPUS.

HE HAD NEVER SAT ME DOWN AND TOLD ME THE WHOLE STORY AND ONE DAY HE DID.

HE KIND OF SAID, LOOK, I KNOW I SAID I WAS NEVER GOING TO MAKE ANOTHER FILM, BUT I THINK WE'VE GOT A STORY HERE.

IT HAD BEEN SUCH A TRANSFORMATIONAL EXPERIENCE FOR HIM THAT IT WAS SOMETHING HE REALLY WANTED TO SHARE.

I WAS SITTING AT MY DESK AT WORK ONE DAY AND HE SENDS ME THE TREATMENT AND I JUST STARTED CRYING.

SOMETHING IN THAT STORY RESONATED WITH ME ON A VERY BIG LEVEL.

I THINK IT'S BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY NEWSPAPER ARTICLES AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS OUT AT THE MOMENT ABOUT THE DESTRUCTIVE IMPACT OF HUMAN BEINGS ON NATURE AND THIS WAS A REALLY HOPEFUL AND INSPIRING FILM ABOUT THE IMPACT OF NATURE ON A HUMAN BEING.

THAT'S WHY I FELL IN LOVE WITH IT.

CRAIG, TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

THE TITLE SAYS TEACHER.

WHAT WAS THIS PROCESS LIKE?

WHAT WAS THIS OCTOPUS TEACHING YOU?

WELL, YOU CAN IMAGINE IF YOU NEED TO LEARN ABOUT AN ANIMAL, AT AN ANIMAL'S BEHAVIOR, WHERE'S THE BEST PLACE YOU COULD POSSIBLY GO ON THIS PLANET TO LEARN?

IT'S NOT AT A UNIVERSITY OR SCHOOL.

IT'S ACTUALLY DIRECTLY FROM THAT ANIMAL.

IF YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF VISITING AN ANIMAL LIKE THAT EVERY DAY FOR MONTHS ON END, IT'S A MASTER CLASS EVERY DAY.

WHEN THAT ANIMAL EVENTUALLY TRUSTS ONE, YOU GET LET INTO THE INNER WORLD, THE SECRET WORLD OF THE OCTOPUS.

SHE LET ME INTO HER WORLD AND SHOWED ME BEHAVIORS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.

I DIDN'T SEE HER AS A PET OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SHE'S LITERALLY WILD, WILD KIN.

SHE TAUGHT ME AT A VERY, VERY DEEP LEVEL, A VERY, VERY DEEP LEVEL ABOUT BEHAVIOR AND ABOUT HER LIFE.

PIPPA, WE'VE LIVED THROUGH AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY A GIANT POWER POINT DECK WITH FACTS AND FIGURES, BUT THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF CONSERVATION OR ENVIRONMENTAL FILM IN THE SENSE THAT YOU'RE NOT HITTING US OVER THE HEAD WITH IT.

IT'S JUST A SIMPLE PERSONAL STORY.

IT IS.

THIS WAS THE BIGGEST DEBATE WE HAD DURING THE FILMMAKING PROCESS.

THERE WAS LONG CONVERSATIONS DEEP INTO THE NIGHT BETWEEN CRAIG AND I AND OUR EP AND CRAIG'S WIFE.

EVERYBODY HAD A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON HOW WE SHOULD DO THIS.

BUT IN THE END I FELT LIKE THE STORY THAT WE HAD WAS SO INSPIRING AND SO HOPEFUL AND IT REALLY RATHER THAN BEING A PORTRAIT OF EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE DOING WRONG IN THE WORLD AND, AS I SAID EARLIER, THE DESTRUCTION THAT WE'RE WREAKING ON THE NATURAL WORLD.

CRAIG'S RELATIONSHIP TO NATURE PROVIDES A DIFFERENT VISION FOR WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HUMAN BEING, YOU KNOW, SHARING THIS PLANET WITH MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF OTHER SPECIES.

THERE WAS SOMETHING RESPECTFUL AND AWE INSPIRING ABOUT IT.

THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED THE MAIN MESSAGE TO BE.

CRAIG, BY THE TIME WE GET TO THIS POINT IN THE FILM, THE SEEN THAT I WOULD CALL BASICALLY FIRST CONTACT, IT'S LIKE YOU'VE DESCRIBED THE OCTOPUS AS AN ALIEN EARLIER ON, BUT THERE IS THIS MOMENT WHERE YOU PUT YOUR FINGER OUT AND SHE JUST REACHES ONE OF HER TENTACLES OUT AND TOUCHES YOU.

THEN IT JUST HAPPENS.

I PUT MY HAND OUT A TINY BIT.

♪♪♪

IT'S SOMETHING VISCERAL THAT HAPPENS TO THE AUDIENCE THAT'S WATCHING.

BY THAT TIME, WE KIND OF FEEL LIKE THERE'S SOMETHING SPECIAL GOING ON.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THAT MOMENT WAS LIKE?

YEAH.

IT'S HARD TO FORGET.

THAT FIRST MOMENT OF CONTACT IS OBVIOUSLY VERY, VERY POWERFUL.

SHE'S STILL NOT FULLY TRUSTING.

SHE'S TESTING.

SHE'S REACHING OUT AND TESTING, IS THIS THING SAFE AS I THINK IT MIGHT BE.

I'M VERY CURIOUS BUT I'M VERY FEARFUL.

THEN SHE COMES UP AND STARTS MOVING AROUND WITH ME AND ALLOWS ME TO GO ON HUNTS WITH HER.

THAT'S THE REAL PART.

THAT FOR ME WAS THE MOST MOVING THING, TO HAVE A CEPHALOPOD TRUSTING A HUMAN LIKE THIS AND SHOWING ME THESE INCREDIBLE BEHAVIORS AND HER STRATEGY, HER SOPHISTICATION AND HER TREMENDOUS CLEVERNESS.

THAT WAS DEEPLY MOVING AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY, YOU KNOW, MOVED ME TO MY ABSOLUTELY CORE.

PIPPA, YOU'RE PROBABLY ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE TO SEE THE FOOTAGE THAT HE HAD SHOT.

YOU KNOW, FROM AN OUTSIDER'S PERSPECTIVE, WHEN YOU SAW SOME OF THESE SCENES, DID YOU THINK THAT THERE WAS COGNITION, EMOTION, THINGS THAT MAYBE HUMANS, WE WANT TO PROJECT ONTO THE OCTOPUS, BUT AS CRAIG IS HAVING THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS OCTOPUS BECAUSE HE'S GETTING TO KNOW IT SO WELL, YOU'RE WATCHING THE FILM.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

MY MIND IS BEING BLOWN.

I THINK IF I WANT TO THINK ABOUT THE EMOTIONAL WORLD OF AN OCTOPUS, THERE'S A SCENE WHERE SHE'S LEARNING TO HAVE THE LOBSTERS.

THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF FOOTAGE OF THIS.

WE'VE PICKED THE BEST BITS AND WE'VE TOLD THE STORY AS WELL AS WE CAN.

BUT WATCHING THOSE, I WOULD SEE THIS ANIMAL BECOMING FRUSTRATED.

FOR ME, THAT IS SUCH A RELATABLE FEELING.

AND OF COURSE YOU CAN SEE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN HER AND CRAIG AND HOW CLEVER SHE IS.

BUT SOMETHING ABOUT THAT FRUSTRATION FELT VERY, VERY REAL TO ME.

CRAIG, IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU DIDN'T GIVE THIS OCTOPUS A NAME, DIDN'T TREAT IT AS A PET.

YOU EVEN MAINTAINED A CERTAIN DISTANCE THROUGH SOME TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCING IN ITS LIFE, WHEN A SHARK TAKES AN ARM AWAY.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE IN YOUR HEAD TO PROCESS KEEPING THAT CERTAIN DISTANCE OF SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE ESSENTIALLY GROWING CLOSER TO.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, BUT AS I SAID, WHEN YOU GET TO KNOW THIS ECOSYSTEM AND YOU GET TO KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS FOR INSTANCE FOR THE SHARKS TO REACH ADULTHOOD AND HOW VULNERABLE THEY ARE, HOW VULNERABLE THEY ARE AS A SPECIES, THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO AS A HUMAN IS INTERFERE IN THAT GRAND SCHEME OF NATURE THAT'S DEVELOPED OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS.

IT'S NOT OUR PLACE TO INTERFERE WITH THAT.

AS YOU THINK ABOUT THESE LIFE LESSONS THAT THIS OCTOPUS IS STARTING TO TEACH YOU THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, WHAT IS THE PROCESS YOU'RE GOING THROUGH?

HOW IS THIS OCTOPUS HELPING YOU HEAL?

WELL, WHEN YOU GET TAKEN INTO DEEP NATURE AND INTO AN ANIMAL'S LIFE LIKE THIS, YOU GET TO REALIZE HOW, FIRST OF ALL, HOW TOUGH HER LIFE IS AND HOW DANGEROUS IT IS AND HOW PRECIOUS IT IS.

OF COURSE, I'M GETTING TO KNOW MANY OF THE OTHER ANIMALS IN THE KELP FOREST AS WELL.

EVENTUALLY, AND THIS IS AFTER MANY YEARS OF DIVING EVERY DAY, YOU HAVE THESE GLIMPSES OF THIS GIANT BIOLOGICAL MIND, THIS HUGE MIND OF MOTHER NATURE THAT'S REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL OF OUR WELL-BEING.

THE REASON WE CAN TALK NOW, WE CAN BREATHE, WE CAN EAT IS ALL BECAUSE OF THAT.

WE'VE LOST THAT KNOWLEDGE.

WE'VE LOST THAT UNDERSTANDING.

BUT OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THE FOUNDATION OF EVERY SINGLE THING WE DO ON THIS PLANET AS HUMANS IS THANKS TO MOTHER NATURE AND TO THIS GIANT BIOLOGICAL MIND.

YOU START TO HAVE THESE GREAT REALIZATIONS AND IT'S ALL THROUGH THESE SLOW, DEEP UNDERSTANDINGS OF CREATURES LIKE THIS EXTRAORDINARY ANIMAL THAT CAME TO BE MY TEACHER.

PIPPA, THE PROJECT THAT YOU BOTH WORK ON, SEA CHANGE, TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS AREA THAT CRAIG WAS IN, BUT ALSO KIND OF THE LARGER CHALLENGES THAT KELP FORESTS ARE FACING.

SO THE SEA CHANGE PROJECT IS THE NAME OF THE ORGANIZATION THAT WE WORK WITH.

IT'S A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS AND STORY-TELLERS THAT HAVE FALLEN IN LOVE WITH THE GREAT AFRICAN SEA FOREST, WHICH IS THE PLACE WHERE THE OCTOPUS LIVES.

THIS IS A VAST UNDERWATER FOREST THAT STRETCHES FOR MORE THAN A THOUSAND KILOMETERS ALL THE WAY UP THE COAST OF NAMIBIA.

THE THING ABOUT THE KELP FOREST IS THAT THEY COVER ABOUT 25% OF OUR GLOBAL COASTLINES AND HARDLY ANYONE IS SPEAKING ABOUT THEM.

THAT'S A HUGE CHUNK OF MARINE HABITAT.

THEY HAVE BEEN LABELED AS THE SECOND MOST VULNERABLE MARINE ECOSYSTEMS TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

THEY ARE VERY, VERY PRECIOUS PLACES, BUT THEY'RE ALSO IN A LOT OF TROUBLE.

KELP FORESTS HAVE DISAPPEARED IN JUST A MATTER OF YEARS.

THE REASON THEY ARE SO IMPORTANT IS THEY ARE HUGE SEQUESTERERS OF CARBON.

THE BIODIVERSITY IN KELP FORESTS IS EXTRAORDINARY AS WELL AS THE MASSIVE LIFE THAT YOU FOUND THERE.

THEY ALSO PROTECT OUR COASTLINES FROM SWELL AND STORMS, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT IN THE AGE OF RISING SEA LEVELS.

SO THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL HABITATS, BUT THERE'S VERY LITTLE CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEM.

WITH REGARDS TO OUR KELP FOREST ITSELF, WHAT WE'RE HOPING IS TO BUILD SUPPORT IN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THE BEST WAY TO PROTECT AN ECOSYSTEM AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE IS TO MAKE IT AS RESISTANT AS YOU CAN, TO HAVE A GREAT LEVEL OF AWARENESS ABOUT WHY IT'S IMPORTANT AND HOW TO BEHAVE WITHIN IT.

CRAIG, SPEAKING OF ADD ADAPTATION AND BRILLIANCE, THE OCTOPUS SHOWS US THINGS THAT I DIDN'T KNOW AN OCTOPUS COULD DO.

THERE'S A SCENE WHERE IT'S BEING CHASED BY A SHARK AND IT JUST CRAWLS UP ON LAND.

YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS OCTOPUS FOR MONTHS BY THIS TIME.

DID YOU EXPECT IT TO JUST GET UP AND KEEP GOING?

NO.

SO MANY THINGS THAT SHE TAUGHT ME FOR MASSIVE SURPRISES.

THE INTELLIGENCE OF THIS ANIMAL IS SO EXTRAORDINARY.

IT'S EQUIVALENT TO MAMMAL INTELLIGENCE OR EVEN PRIMATE INTELLIGENCE.

THE EXTRAORDINARY THING ABOUT IT IS A LOT OF THE COGNITION, IN FACT TWO-THIRDS OF THE COGNITION IS IN THE ARMS, IN THE BODY AND OUTSIDE THE BRAIN.

IT'S THINKING IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY TO WHAT WE CAN IMAGINE.

SO IT'S HARD TO GET INSIDE HER HEAD, INSIDE HER BODY.

BUT WHAT SHE'S DOING IS JUST ABSOLUTELY REMARKABLE.

CRAIG, I REMEMBER A LONG TIME AGO IN HIGH SCHOOL BIOLOGY CLASS FINDING OUT THAT OCTOPUSES WERE COLOR BLIND, BUT I WATCH YOUR FILM AGAIN AND I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW DO THEY CAMOUFLAGE THEMSELVES IF THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT COLORS ARE BUT THEY FIT SO PERFECTLY INTO THEIR ENVIRONMENT?

GOOD MEMORY.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THEY SEE IN MONOCHROME, SO HOW ON EARTH ARE THEY ACTUALLY MATCHING THAT COLOR SO WELL?

IT'S STILL A BIT OF A MYSTERY.

ALSO WHAT THEY SOMETIMES DO, WHICH IS FASCINATING, IF THEY CAN'T MATCH THE COLOR TOO PERFECTLY, THEY'LL LOOK AT ANOTHER OBJECT OR ANIMAL NEAR THEM AND MATCH THAT.

YOU THINK IT'S JUST SOME PIERCE OF ALGAE ON THEIR ARM, BUT THEY'RE NOT MATCHING TO THEIR BACKGROUND, THEY'RE MATCHING TO SOMETHING RIGHT NEXT TO THEM.

IT'S EXTRA CLEVER, EXTRA SOPHISTICATED.

CRAIG, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WITNESSED, THINGS THAT YOU DOCUMENTED THAT HAVEN'T BEEN SEEN BEFORE?

IN THE BEHAVIOR WITH CREATING THIS ARMORING FROM THE SHELLS, THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I DISCOVERED THANKS TO HER.

SHE'S GOT A SOFT BODY.

IN EVOLUTION SHE HAS GIVEN UP HER SHELL SO SHE'S VERY VULNERABLE TO SHARK ATTACK.

SHE LIFTS UP SHELLS AND STONES, SOMETIMES UP TO 80 OF THEM AND IN A FRACTION OF A SECOND COVERS HER WHOLE BODY IN THIS SHELL AND STONE ARMOR TO PROTECT HERSELF FROM THE SHARK TEETH.

WHEN SHE'S FINISHED WITH THAT OR THE SHARK IS CONFUSED, JUST AT THE RIGHT MOMENT SHE'LL DROP ALL OF THOSE SHELLS AND HER SMELL WILL BE ON THOSE AND SHE'LL VANISH AND THE SHARK WILL OFTEN GO FOR THE SMELL ON THE SHELLS AND SHE'S ESCAPED.

I DON'T THINK IT'S IN THE FILM, BUT A SPECIES OF A SHRIMP THAT LIVES WITH HER IN THE DEN AND CONSEQUENTLY SOME OTHER SPECIES, SO SHE HELPED ME DISCOVER QUITE A FEW ANIMAL SPECIES, NEW SPECIES TO SCIENCE.

YOU KNOW, WE SAW EXTRAORDINARY BEHAVIORS LIKE HOW SHE LEARNS TO DEAL WITH CERTAIN PREY SO QUICKLY, LIKE LEARNING TO HUNT THE LOBSTER.

EVEN USING ME LIKE A SHIELD IN THE WATER WHEN SHE'S HUNTING.

SO JUST INCREDIBLE SOPHISTICATION.

PIPPA, WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY FROM THIS FILM?

ONE OF THE REASONS WE DIDN'T PUT A SPECIFIC CONSERVATION ISSUE INTO THE FILM IS WE DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE A MOVIE ABOUT GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS.

WE WANTED TO MAKE A FILM THAT EVERYBODY WAS PART OF.

EVERYBODY IS PART OF THE STORY, BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE, IS DEPENDENT ON NATURE AND THE OCEAN FOR EVERY BREATH THAT YOU TAKE, EVERY BIT OF FOOD THAT YOU PUT IN YOUR MOUTH.

I THINK WE REALLY HOPE THAT PEOPLE WOULD START TO THINK ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD IN TERMS OF WHAT IT MEANS FOR OUR HEARTS, MINDS, BODIES AND SPIRITS, BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN PART OF NATURE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

AS CRAIG SAID EARLIER, WE SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY.

AND THERE IS A DIFFERENT WAY OF BEING ON THIS EARTH.

THIS NEXT TEN YEARS THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW, THIS IS THE TIME THAT WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY THAT WE TREAT THE LIVING PLANET.

IF WE DO THAT, WE CAN CREATE ANY FUTURE THAT WE WANT FOR ALL OF THE HUMAN SPECIES AND ANIMAL SPECIES THAT COME AFTER US.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

YOU CAN WATCH 'MY OCTOPUS TEACHER' NOW ON NETFLIX.

> FINALLY, THE SMALL HELICOPTER NAMED INGENUITY LIFTED OFF FROM MARS TODAY MAKING HISTORY AS NASA'S FIRST-EVER POWERED FLIGHT ON ANOTHER WORLD.

IT'S THE LITTLE HELICOPTER WITH A VERY BIG MISSION.

NASA'S MINI CHOPPER NAMED INGENUITY BECAME THE FIRST AIRCRAFT TO ACHIEVE POWERED CONTROLLED FLIGHT ON ANOTHER PLANET.

INGENUITY'S FIRST FLIGHT IS INTENTIONALLY BRIEF.

IT WAS JUST SHOWING US A VIDE AND SHOWS US HOVERING THREE METERS ABOVE THE MARTIAN SURFACE.

IT'S AMAZING, BRILLIANT.

A SHORT HOP THAT IS THE CULMINATION OF MANY HITS AND MISSES.

INGENUITY HAS SURVIVED THE FRIGID MARTIAN NIGHTS AFTER SEPARATING FROM THE PERSEVERANCE ROVER ALLOWING ITS SOLAR POWERED BATTERIES TO FIRE UP INTERNAL HEATERS.

A SPIN TEST OF ITS ROTORS DELAYED A TEST.

NASA SAID IT SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED THE TEST.

SCIENTISTS SAY HAVING A BIRD'S EYE VIEW OF THE TRAIN COULD REVOLUTIONIZE THE WAY WE STUDY PLANETS.

INGENUITY WILL OPEN NEW POSSIBILITIES AND SPARK NEW QUESTIONS.

COULD WE IMAGINE AREAS NOT VISIBLE FROM SPACE OR THAT A ROVER COULDN'T REACH?

HOW TO PLOT THE MOST EFFICIENT COURSE FOR THE BEST SCIENCE.

FLYING ON THE RED PLANET PRESENTED SOME DIFFICULT ENGINEERING CHALLENGES BECAUSE OF THE LOW GRAVITY OF MARS AND AN ATMOSPHERE THAT IS 1% THE DENSITY OF EARTH.

NASA ENGINEERS SENT ALONG A GOOD LUCK CHARM.

ATTACHED TO INGENUITY IS A PIECE OF FABRIC FROM THE WING OF THE WRIGHT BROTHERS' FLIER.

INGENUITY'S TRIP WAS MODEST, RISING TEN FEET IN THE AIR AND HOVERING BEFORE UP THING BACK DOWN.

BUT THE ACHIEVEMENT IS ANYTHING BUT.

THIS WAS THE REACTION AT MISSION CONTROL.

ALTIMETER DATA.

INGENUITY HAS PERFORMED ITS FIRST FLIGHT OF A POWERED AIRCRAFT ON ANOTHER PLANET.

NOW, THE RESULTS WERE TRANSMITTED BACK TO EARTH EARLY THIS MORNING.

NASA'S ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF LIFE ON MARS.

PROJECT MANAGER SAID WE'VE BEEN TALKING FOR SO LONG ABOUT OUR, QUOTE, WRIGHT BROTHERS MOMENT ON MARS AND HERE IT IS.

INDEED THE MINI CHOPPER WAS OUTFITTED WITH A TINY PIECE OF FABRIC FROM THE WRIGHT BROTHER'S FIRST AIRPLANE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.