Matthew Barzun: The Power of Giving Away Power

MATTHEW BARZUN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED KINGDOM:  How does it work in reality? It works in reality when groups of people — and I think your previous segment, all those wonderful guests were describing the process of healing and — or the attempted process of healing. So, it happens when people realize that lording power over others doesn’t work, hoarding it all to yourself doesn’t work, that there is an alternative, that you can make power together as a group. And it’s not about sweeping differences under the carpet, so to speak. It’s about — so much energy lives in different, so it’s about embracing and constructively dealing with differences to make something bigger than yourself.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Well, speaking about power, some of the world’s most powerful leaders will be convening in your old stomping ground in the U.K. later this month for the G7, obviously, a lot of foreign policy news to talk about and digest and work through. What are some of the top priorities, in your opinion?

BARZUN: Well, I think that phrase, Bianna, work through is one we don’t use enough, right? There’s so much of, whether it’s domestic or foreign policy, we talk about trying to win. And the minute you talk about winning, someone else — even if you say win-win, someone else immediately thinks about losing. And so much of the work ahead of us, whether it’s climate, whether it’s the global COVID-19 pandemic, this is about working through these things together. And I hope that’s what we will see at the G7.

GOLODRYGA: What we’re seen —

BARZUN: You know, it’s also the kind of place —

GOLODRYGA: Go ahead. Go ahead.

BARZUN: Go ahead.

GOLODRYGA: No, no. Finish your thought.

BARZUN: Well, I was just going to say, it’s — so often brings me back to my old jobs where I think we need to fight the instinct at gatherings like this to look for difference as if it is a bad thing. And I remember, there’s a set phrase that we use as diplomats, I must have said it a thousand times, there’s no daylight between us. You know, no daylight between the U.S. and the U.K. or among the G7 nations on topic X, Y or Z. It’s always said with that tone of voice that’s kind of often wrong, never a doubt. And I think it is a ludicrous standard of agreement. It is not true, it’s not helpful. And what’s so scary about daylight?

GOLODRYGA: I guess this happens also in the backdrop of so much change, not only the United States in terms of leadership in politics here but also in the E.U. with Brexit and the U.K. And I could see where people would argue with so much change, perhaps it is a bit reassuring to hear leaders when they meet to constantly use that same phrase, no daylight between us, or in the case of the United States with the U.K., that special relationship. What’s wrong with that if it makes people feel at ease?

BARZUN: Well, I love the phrase special relationship. And if you think about two people,