Julie DiCaro: The Unfair Treatment of Women in Sports

BIANNA GOLODRYGA:  Well, now, tennis star, Naomi Osaka, broke her silence over the weekend, thanking fans for their support after she withdrew from the French Open to

focus on her mental health. Her decision to pull out rather than face the tournament’s press conference is triggering a conversation about the

relationship between athletes and the media.

For insight, we turn to sports journalist, Julie DiCaro, the author of “Sidelined: Sports, Culture, and Being a Woman in America.” Here she is

talking to Michel Martin about Osaka as well as her own experience with abuse as a woman in sport.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHEL MARTIN: Thanks, Bianna. Julie DiCaro, thank you so much for joining us.

JULIE DICARO, SR. WRITER/EDITOR, DEADSPIN: Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: People accept that there’s a certain amount of, you know, trash talk involved between athletes and then sometimes between broadcasters and

athletes, not so much but, you know, we can say depending on them for access and so forth. But when did you realize that your experience as a

woman sports talk host was just fundamentally different from that of your colleagues, your male colleagues?

DICARO: Yes. You know, I remember one day when one of my male colleagues got called sort of nasty name on the text line that comes into the station

and completely shut down for 15 minutes and wouldn’t talk to anybody.

And I sort of thought, gosh, I would kill to have be the worst thing that people called me. You know, the responses I got from people were very

gendered, they were very violent. So, while might get, you’re terrible at your job and you shouldn’t have this job. Women get, I hope you get raped.

You probably slept with your boss to get this job. You know, things along those lines.

So, you know, it was when I saw the things that upset the men and realized how much worse the things that people said to me were that I really

realized how different it was. And I think that women, by and large, feel like, it’s just me, that if people — it’s me because there’s something

wrong with me. And it wasn’t until women started — we all started sort of talking to each other on, you know, private Facebook groups and things like

that that we realized that there’s a lot of us in this boat.

MARTIN: Could you just back up for a second? Do you hear what you just said? Because I’m not sure that everybody understood what you just said.

You said that it was — I mean, you just said like, yes, you know, like people, you know, express their desire to see me get raped. I mean, come

on.

DICARO: Yes.

MARTIN: Like that’s a normal part of the workday?

DICARO: Yes. Absolutely. And I’ve seen it happen to other women. I’ve talked to women in my book who said, you know, they were fighting back

tears while at the same time trying to read sports scores on the radio. It is a tough, tough environment. And I think women are largely still not

accepted.

MARTIN: So, and this started just from the beginning? I mean, this started day one?

DICARO: Yes. It started day one. Yes. I mean, I think there’s an initial pushback to you — to women being in a space that is largely dominated by

men. So, first, you get complaints about your voice, about — you know, if you make a mistake, it’s because you’re a woman.

Those kinds of things. But when I started commenting on topics that are, I guess, hot-button issues, things like violence against women, things like

racial bias in sports, things like that, that is when it really came out. The claws really came out from other people. And I think that a lot of it

is that, you know, there are certain rules where women are allowed to stay.

If you look the right way, say the right things, if you sort of defer to the men and don’t sort of wade into the debates that people get upset

about, you’re treated much differently. But if you are a person with opinions who speaks out and talks especially about social justice, racial

justice in sports, then you are going to get a lot of vitriol sent your way.

MARTIN: And a couple of years ago, you and another colleague decided to let the world know what you’ve been experiencing. It was a YouTube video

that quickly got millions of views under the hashtag, #MoreThanMe, you and another colleague had male friends of yours, acquaintances of yours read

actual e-mails and tweets that were directed to you. These were not made up. I think we should play a short clip of that. Why don’t we do that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopefully, this skank, Julie DiCaro, is Bill Cosby’s next victim. That would be classic.

DICARO: I don’t know what to say to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don’t — I don’t think I can even say that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope your boyfriend beats you. I’m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why bring up your own rape in the story? Is it your way of firing back at critics who said you can’t get any?

DICARO: That’s something, huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I’m sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: And there’s more.

DICARO: Yes, there’s more. And Michel, you know, that was — those were the sort of intermediate-level tweets. We couldn’t even put the rated-X

ones on there, because we were afraid YouTube would take the video down. So, those were sort of — yes, those weren’t even the advanced level

tweets, those were just mid-range.

MARTIN: So, one of the reasons we’re bringing this up now is that — well, two reasons, one, we’re talking in the wake of Naomi Osaka’s decision to

withdraw from the French Open, because she had made the statement that she wasn’t willing to participate in press conferences during the open, as a

way to protect her mental health.

She got a lot of pushback from the tournament. And one of the reasons that we called you is that you wrote a book not just about those experiences,

your experiences as a woman in sports media. But also, you broadened it out to the experiences of women athletes. So, what’s your response to the Naomi

Osaka decision?

DICARO: I think, you know, the misogyny that’s directed against women, particularly women of color is all part of the same thing, right? Whether

you’re on the media side, whether you’re an athlete, it’s all part of this broader idea that women don’t belong in sports and that you’re only here —

you should be happy just to be here and you should play along with the rules and, you know, accept the way things have always been.

I think that what Naomi Osaka has done is incredibly brave. I think it sparked a conversation in media that we need to have. And it’s a

conversation on so many levels, right? It’s about mental health. It’s about the way that we treat women and women of color in sports. It’s about, you

know, the way that the media treats athletes in general. And certainly, we’ve seen other athletes come forward and sympathize with her and talk

about how hard press conferences are for them.

So, you know, it’s — I’m kind of shocked by the blowback that she’s gotten from this. It seems like it was such a simple request and it seems like it

would have been such a simple thing for them to do to just say, OK. You know, we’re excusing her for this tournament and afterwards we’ll have a

conversation about it and then we can move forward and see what we can do to help her going forward. But, you know, that wasn’t the response.

And I think that, you know — I think that the reasons that has blown up to such an extent and is involving, you know, people in this conversation who

don’t care about sports or tennis or any of it is that it is a woman, it is a woman of Japanese and Haitian descent pushing back against the status quo

and the way things have always done in an industry dominated largely by white men.

MARTIN: You know, I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear you say this, because you are a sportswriter. And some of the blowback has come

from sport journalists who basically say, hey, you know, we need access to these athletes. And, you know, they’re actually quite, you know, irritated.

And so, I just — I think people would be surprised to hear you, as a person, who’s been a part of those press scrums and has, you know, fought

for access to say that this is a legitimate concern.

DICARO: Yes. And certainly, some of my colleagues who I respect very much, I disagree with. I think that, you know, most, by and large, 90 percent of

the people in sports media scrums and these press conferences are incredibly professional, who do their jobs very professionally.

But, you know, I saw Rennae Stubbs, the former doubles champ, say that she feels that these press conferences have been over credentialed, that there

are maybe people in these press conferences who shouldn’t be there, maybe people who don’t cover tennis regularly or people who don’t necessarily

know that much about the sport. And, you know, I saw vice pulling out some of the questions that Naomi Osaka has been asked and some of the other

women have been asked.

MARTIN: Like what? Give me an example.

DICARO: Yes. Maria Sharapova at 15 was asked how she felt being a pinup. If she felt that was OK. Eugenie Bouchard was asked to twirl around and

show people her outfit. Naomi Osaka has been asked, why is your last name Osaka when your dad is Haitian? You know, I mean, just things that have

nothing to do with tennis, have no place really being asked by people.

And, you know, especially since Naomi Osaka has been someone who very courageously has spoken out against police brutality, she talks about the

murder of George Floyd, she infamously wore face masks of people who have been murdered by police at the U.S. Open. You know, things that she’s going

to be asked about. She’s of Japanese descent.

COVID is taking hold in Tokyo. The Olympics are coming up. I’m sure they’re going to ask about that. And I think that, you know, if you are someone who

suffers from anxiety and depression, like she has said she does, that you really worry about setting a foot wrong and upsetting people and saying the

right thing, and I think that’s got to be huge for a 23-year-old woman in the middle of French Open.

I mean, you only get four chances a year to add grand slams to your resume. These are precious opportunities. And I think the fact that she would

rather walk away and give that up than face the press is a reason that the press sort of needs to take a look in the mirror and figure out why she

feels that way and what we’ve done to contribute to it.

MARTIN: Do you think this intrusive behavior is particularly directed at women, and beyond that, women of color? You know, I think a lot of people –

– a lot of the fans are saying, hey, that’s what you signed up for. That’s just how it is in sports in general. So, how — what — so, do you think —

so, what’s your take on that?

DICARO: Yes. I mean, I do I think that women and particularly women of color have different kinds of questions directed to them. I just saw, and I

think its Cambridge study, that talks about the words that sports media most uses to describe women. And with men, it was fastest, strongest, best.

And with women, it was married, unmarried and aged.

I mean, we’ve seen Serena Williams leave press conferences in tears. And aside from asking questions that are, you know, not about tennis, even when

we’re talking about tennis, you know, we’ve seen Naomi Osaka asked questions like, wow, you lost to her last year, is she in your head now?

How are you going to handle this? You know, just things that, I think, if you’re a person who suffers from anxiety, and even if you’re not, don’t put

you in a great head space either before or after a match.

You know, I came into this business from the blogging side. So, I didn’t have access to these press conferences when I first started. And I still

had to find ways to make things interesting, to engage readers. I think there’s a way to do that. You know, I’m all for access by reporters, but I

think that we need to have a conversation about what the parameters are, what the boundaries are. And I think that a lot of this is driven by the

fact that we are seeing a very young woman of color set boundaries for people who are older than her, who are white. And that is something that we

have not seen, and I think that’s where a lot of the pushback is coming from.

MARTIN: I’m trying to figure out, has there been another moment like this? Can you think of one?

DICARO: You know, I can think of Kevin Love coming out and talking about his mental health. DeMar DeRozan did the same thing. Michael Phelps. And I

remember Zack Greinke in 2006 saying he almost quite baseball because he was — he loved pitching but he hated all the press around it and it made

him really anxious and he too also suffered from social anxiety.

But I can’t think of another case where — well, maybe I can think of one. Simone Biles not wanting to go train at the Karolyi Ranch where so many

gymnasts were abused, forcing USA gymnastics to basically shut the ranch down and find another place to train. I mean, that was a pushback that

actually resulted in, you know, some change being made. And I feel like we see a lot of people talk about their mental health after the fact.

What made —

MARTIN: You mean, after they’ve retired? You mean, after they’ve retired?

DICARO: Yes. Or without advocating for any specific change. Just saying, you know, I have this, and I want the world to know. And, you know, if

anyone else has it, just know you’re not alone. Which is a laudable thing to do. But I think what makes Naomi Osaka different is that she is

advocating for change and she is pushing back against the status quo, a specific thing that she wants changed. And I don’t think we’ve seen anyone

do that. A time when (ph) we’ve seen athletes skip a post-game press conference.

But the way she tried to do it ahead of time by saying, this is what I’m doing, this is why, you know, and afterwards, I know I’m going to be fined.

I hope the money goes to a mental health charity. And then after this is over, I’d like to talk to you. You know, the powers that be (ph) about how

we can do this different. I don’t think we’ve seen that kind of response or that kind of approach to this before. And, you know, certainly from someone

so young, it’s incredibly courageous.

MARTIN: You know, it’s interesting because the fans who think they own these athletes or is it the leagues or the sports leagues or — who think

they own these athletes. And so, therefore, whatever they do or say to them is considered fair game. Is that — that’s the word that comes to mind?

DICARO: I think it’s hard to argue with that. I mean, you know, shut up and dribble, infamously Laura Ingraham said to LeBron I think is the

attitude a lot of people have. I don’t want to hear about your politics, I don’t care about your personal life, just go out there and entertain me.

And when someone says, you know, I’m not going to do that, there are a lot of people who feel, look, you make a ton of money, you’re famous, you have

all of these endorsement deals, get out there and do what you’re supposed to do.

But, you know, that doesn’t recognize athletes as fully formed emotional human beings. You know, I think we tend to feel that money erases all your

problems, which is clearly not the case. And, you know, a lot of people sort of resent the fact that someone who already, in their mind, has so

much more power than they do, in terms of money and celebrity, would say, you know, this is not OK.

That they feel that they should be grateful for what you have and go out there and do what you’re supposed to do. But that’s never been the rule for

the rest of us, right? I mean, in this country, if you have a disability, you have the right to ask for a reasonable accommodation from your

employer. Your employer has to make an effort to accommodate you. So, you know, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, has not been

the case for anyone’s job. That’s — you know, that’s just not the way it goes.

If you have a mental health disability, you’re, you know, entitled to ask your employer, this is something that would help me. Would you allow me to

do this? And I think that’s what she was making an effort at doing in a way that a 23-year-old who’s grown up on social media does, which is just kind

of throw it out to the world. But I didn’t think her request was unreasonable, in any way.

MARTIN: You know, it’s interesting, because I’m thinking about other athletes, particularly athletes of color, who are always labeled as

difficult because they demanded certain respect. I’m thinking about Roberto Clemente, right, the famous — you know, the Pittsburgh great, who was

consistently called Bobby by the sports media. I don’t think Roberto is that hard to say and was just viciously roasted by them, until, of course,

they started, you know, winning world series, and then all of a sudden, you know, it was OK.

So, I feel like what you’re saying is, there’s also the aspect of being a person of color, which invites this kind of commentary. Do you think that

that’s also true of the men? Like, I’m thinking about the blackout by the English Premier League a couple of week ago, the soccer league where the

players and coaches and many of the team management stayed off of social media to point out how many abusive communications are directed at athletes

of color there, because you think that the two are related. Are they related phenomenon?

DICARO: Oh, yes. I think it’s all related. I mean, I think anytime you have people of color who — especially who make a lot of money and who in

the eyes of the fans, you know, maybe don’t deserve it, you know, this is the same thing we see in major league baseball, where people are constantly

siding with the owners rather than with the labor, which are the players.

You know, that the owners can take and take and take, and diminish salaries and diminish salaries, and people always side with the billionaires, which

is, you know, something I’ve never understood. And I think that race probably has a lot to do with it.

I think back to last summer’s Black Lives Matter protests by the WNBA and the NBA, the WNBA sort of led the charge on a lot of that. And a lot of the

comments on social media were, shut up and play, nobody cares about your opinion. So, the idea especially that the players of color are supposed to

just go out there, perform for all of us while we toss quarters at them and then go sit down and shut up is one that’s been around this country for,

you know, decades.

MARTIN: Which was interesting given how many people who own sports teams are involved in politics, who give massive political donations to the

candidates of their choice, and even in the case of one of the NBA teams was a member of the United States Senate, and certainly took political

positions, but nobody told her to shut up. And — you know, which is interesting. Where does this go next in your view? What could change look

like in your view?

DICARO: It’s a really good question. You know, hopefully, the people in the media who may ask more sort of tabloidly questions and stuff will think

better of it. I know that my colleague, Jane McManus has talked about how – – what a great job the WTA did cracking down on reporters who sort of sexualized young women, young tennis players.

So, maybe we’ll see sort of the same thing. You know, maybe people are just going to have to ask questions that aren’t quite — that are, you know,

related to tennis, first of all. And that don’t just keep asking the same question over and over and over, particularly about somebody’s confidence

or skill when they just lost a match. You know, I just think that we need to be a little bit more sensitive than that.

These are human beings. Many of them are very young. You know, particularly, when we’re talking about college athletes or, you know,

someone in tennis where there’s a lot of young players. Swimmers are young. NBA players are very young, a lot of times. And I think we just need to

just talk to them the way you would talk to your child, not the way you talk to someone who’s an athlete who makes millions of dollars.

MARTIN: Julie DiCaro, thanks so much for talking with us.

DICARO: Thanks for having me, Michel.