George Packer: Americans Splitting Into Four Distinct Groups

OKAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S QUITE, I GUESS, SOBERING TO HEAR FROM YOU THAT MANY WORLD LEADERS ARE NOT 100% SURE WHETHER AMERICA IS BACK.

AND DO LOOK AT THE 74-PLUS MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP AND WONDER WHETHER THIS FRACTURIZATION, THIS WITHDRAWAL FROM THE WORLD IS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO COME BACK IN FULL FORCE IN FOUR YEARS OR THROUGHOUT.

I WANT YOU TO COMMENT ON THAT.

YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK SOMETHING HAS GONE WRONG WITH THE LAST BEST HOPE OF EARTH, AMERICANS KNOW IT.

THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT.

YOU'VE DESCRIBED IT HOW IT'S GONE WRONG.

HOW DOES ONE MAKE IT GO BACK INTO THE BOX?

NOTHING EVER RETURNS TO WHERE IT WAS IN HISTORY.

OBVIOUSLY, THINGS JUST SIMPLY KEEP EVOLVING FORWARD.

IN MY BOOK, I LOOK AT THE LAST HALF CENTURY OF AMERICAN LIFE AND I SEE FOUR WAYS IN WHICH AMERICANS IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AND THE COUNTRY, DOMINANT WAYS.

THERE ARE OTHERS THAT ARE NOT DOMINANT.

THESE ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE THE MOST INFLUENCE.

THEY'RE ALL IN THE KIND OF CONFLICT WITH EACH OTHER FOR SUPREMACY.

THERE'S A LOT OF STATUS COMPETITION.

IT'S THE SOURCE OF A GREAT DEAL OF OUR VITRIOL AND RESENTMENT AND POLARIZATION.

AND THEY'VE KIND OF PROCEEDED CHRONOLOGICALLY FROM WHAT I CALL FREE AMERICA, WHICH WAS REAGAN'S AMERICA, THE AMERICA OF UNBRIDLED CAPITALISM AND INDIVIDUAL ENTERPRISE TO SMART AMERICA, THE AMERICA OF THE CLINTONS, THE MERITOCRACY, EDUCATED, PROFESSIONAL AMERICA, TO REAL AMERICA WHICH BEGAN IN SOME WAYS WITH SARAH PALIN WHO USED THAT PHRASE AND HAD ITS FULLEST REALIZATION WITH DONALD TRUMP.

THE RIGHT-WING POPULISM THAT LOOKED AT AMERICANS AS ARE YOU A REAL AMERICAN OR ARE YOU ONE OF THEM, THE ELITES, THE NONWHITES, THE FOREIGNERS.

AND THEN WHAT I CALL JUST AMERICA WHICH IS A REBELLION ON THE PART OF A YOUNGER GENERATION THAT BELIEVES MERITOCRACY IS A SHAM.

IN SOME WAYS THERE ARE TWO ELITE NARRATIVES, FREE, LIBERTARIAN AND SMART, AND TWO REBELLIOUS NARRATIVES FROM BELOW, REAL, WHICH IS RIGHT-WING POPULIST, AND JUST, WHICH IS A SOCIAL JUSTICE NARRATIVE AND THAT -- THERE'S CONFLICTS BOTH ON EITHER SIDE OF THE RED/BLUE DIVIDE AND WITHIN EACH SIDE SO THAT IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN SIMPLY TWO COUNTRIES.

WE ARE TWO COUNTRIES.

BUT EACH COUNTRY IS AT WAR WITH ITSELF IN SOME WAYS.