July 20, 2021

♪♪♪

> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PEACE IN AFGHANISTAN OR WILL THE TALIBAN SEIZE CONTROL ONCE THE U.S. IS OUT.

I SPEAK WITH THE TALIBAN AND THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SITE.

THEN NOTES ON GRIEF.

THE AWARD WINNING AUTHOR JOINS ME ONCOMING TO TERM WITH THE LOSS OF HER PARENTS.

PLUS --

THIS IS A REFLECTION OF SOMETHING DEEPLY TROUBLING AND OUR SYSTEM GOING INTO FULL RED ALERT MODE.

NARROWLY MISSING A WAR WITH IRAN?

INSIDE THE HEATED FINAL DAY OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

FAMILY.RYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

EVERYONE.E TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING ON THE TOTAL WITHDRAWAL OF ALL U.S.

FORCES FROM AFGHANISTAN.

AFTER 20 YEARS OF THE SO CALLED 'FOREVER WAR' THERE, WASHINGTON OF COURSE DOES NOT WANT THE KIND OF CHAOS IN KABUL THAT ACCOMPANIED ITS WITHDRAWAL FROM VIETNAM.

BUT CAN PEACE STICK IN AFGHANISTAN?

EVEN TODAY ROCKETS THERE LANDED NEAR THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.

DURING THE MUSLIM FESTIVAL.

THE ISLAMIC EXTREMIST GROUP TALIBAN HAVE USED PEACE TALKS TE COUNTRY.

U.S. INTELLIGENCE WARNS AFGHANS WHO HAVE BENEFITTED FROM THE LAST 20 YEARS OF AMERICAN SPONSORED DEMOCRACY, WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS ARE TERRIFIED OF A RETURN TO THE PAST.

THE TALIBAN INSISTS IT IS STILL COMMITTED TO PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.

THEIR SPOKESMAN JOINS ME NOW FROM DOHA QATAR.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT THE ATTACK NEAR THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.

ISIS HAS CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY.

YOU DENY IT.

BUT YOU DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO CALL A CEASE FIRE FOR THIS HOLY DAY OF AID.

WHY NOT?

YES, WE HAVE NOT ATTACKED -- AID CONDUCTED IN ARGA AND EVERY YEAR WE HAVE DE FACTO CEASE FIRE THOUGH SOMETIMES IT IS NOT ANNOUNCED BUT THE FACT THERE WILL BE CEASE FIRE FROM OUR SIDE AND THIS IS RESPONSIBILITY OF THIS INCIDENT IS TAKEN BY.

OKAY.

SO SOMETIMES THE ATTACKS ARE TAKEN AND ASCRIBED TO US.

I THINK THAT IS NOT A FEAR.

JUST INSIDE AFGHANISTAN BUT NOT THOSE WATCHING THESE NEGOTIATIONS WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT YOU TALK A PEACE GAME AND YOU TALK NEGOTIATIONS AROUND THE TABLE BUT ON THE GROUND YOU ARE FIGHTING OR YOU ARE GETTING, YOU KNOW, HOOVERING UP TERRITORY AND REALLY MAKING A LOT OF GAINS ACCORDING TO THE LATEST OFFICIALS YOUR FIGHTS HAVE MORE THAN TRIPLED THE NUMBER OF DISTRICTS UNDER TALIBAN CONTROL.

THAT MAKES PEOPLE SCARED THAT VICTORY.WANT IS DOMINANCE AND WHY -- I MEAN, SHOULDN'T PEOPLE?

IF WE HAD TAKEN ALL THOSE DISTRICTS BY FORCE, THEN WE CAN BE BLAMED.

IF THE SECURITY FORCES OF THE KABUL ADMINISTRATION ARE COMING TO OUR SIDE AND THEY ARE JOINING US ALONG WITH THEIR WEAPONS.

SO WHY WE SHOULD BE?

IT MEANS THAT THEY NO MORE TRUST THE KABUL ADMINISTRATION.

THEY CAST US.

OUR FORCES HAD GONE TO THE KABUL ADMINISTRATION, THEY WOULD HAVE OVERCOME THAT AND WE ALSO WILL COME THAT VIEW.

SO THEY ARE WANT TO PUT END TO THE FIGHTING SO THAT IS THEIR PROBLEM, THAT THEY ARE COMING TO US VOLUNTARILY, NOT BY FORCE.

OKAY.

YOU SAY THAT AND MAYBE IN SOME PLACES THAT IS THE CASE.

BUT IN MANY OTHER PLACES THERE IS FULL SCALE COMBAT ON THE GROUND.

WE READ ABOUT IT EVERY DAY.

WE SEE IT ALL THE TIME IN THE MEDIA.

AND I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, IS THE TALIBAN AFTER ALL THESE YEARS PREPARED FOR AN ACTUAL PEACE SETTLEMENT, ONE THAT ENABLES YOU AND THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SIDE AND ALL PARTIES TO ACTUALLY HAVE A STAKE IN THE?

OR ARE YOU STILL LOOKING FOR VICTORY NO MATTER HOW MUCH -- HOW IT COMES?

NOT OUR OPTION.ITARY COURT IS OUR POLICY IS TO REACH A PEACEFUL SOLUTION OF THE --. INCLUSIVE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT IN ADMINISTRATION.REPLACE KABUL AN -- ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT WHICH ALL AFGHANS HAVE PARTICIPATION.G HERE IN DOHA NEGOTIATION WITHTH.

SO THAT IS OUR POLICY.

THAT IS SOME DISTRICTS FAIL TO ASK BECAUSE THE SECURITY FORCES.

THEY JOINED US SO THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE CHANGED OUR POLICY.

IF, FOR EXAMPLE, THE OTHER SIDE, THE KABUL ADMINISTRATION HAD TAKEN MORE THAN 85% TERRITORY OF AFGHANISTAN, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TALKED WITH US.

THEY WOULD HAVE STOPPED NEGOTIATION WITH US.

BUT WE ARE NOT STOPPING.

WE BELIEVE THAT A PEACE CAN BE ACHIEVED WHEN WE HAVE NEGOTIATED --.

SO YOU HAVE JUST SAID YOU WANT AN ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF EXISTS RIGHT NOW.H ACTUALLY THAT IS ITS FORMAL WORD.

AND MANY ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT ALL YOU REALLY CARE IS ABOUT THE OLD IDEOLOGY THAT YOU BROUGHT TE '90s THAT WE SAW WITH THE TERRORISM IN THE EARLY 2000s.

SO WOMEN, FOR INSTANCE, THE WOMEN OF YOUR COUNTRY ARE VERY WORRIED.

THOSE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR FREEDOMS.

TO SCHOOL, TO GO TO WORK, TOGO HAVE A DIFFERENT LIFE.

LET ME READ YOU, OR LET ME PLAY FOR YOU, FOR INSTANCE, WHAT ONE.

THIS IS FATIMA GAYLANI.

AFGHAN NEGOTIATORS.NE OF THE SHE SAID THIS ABOUT THE PEACE TALKS.

LET ME JUST PLAY THIS.

THE REAL STORY IS THAT IF THERE IS A CIVIL WAR, WHEN THERE IS A CHAOS, THE BAD DOERS WILL TAKE REFUGE AND THEY WILL HAVE THEIR HOMES IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF MOUNTAINOUS AFGHANISTAN.

AND THEY WILL HAVE A RIGHT THEIR LIKE.AND TO DO WHATEVER THEY THEY COULD HARM NOT ONLY THE REGION.

WANT.COULD HARM ANYWHERE THEY WE SAW THE EXAMPLE BEFORE.

WHY DO WE WANT TO REPEAT HISTORY?

SO SHE'S TALKING ABOUT 9/11,. AND THE QUESTION TO YOU IS WHY SHOULD ANYBODY BELIEVE THAT THE TALIBAN, YOU KNOW, IN CONTROL OR IN POWER IN AFGHANISTAN SHOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT NOW THAN IT WA?

WHAT MAKES ANYBODY BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD KEEP OUT THOSE EVIL DOERS AS SHE SAID, THE TERRORISTS AND THE OTHERS?

FIRST, WE KNOW HOW OUR OPPONENTS, THEY LABEL AGAINST US BASICALLY ALLEGATION.

THIS IS THEIR PART OF ROUTINE FROM NOT NOW, BUT FROM THE PAST.

SECONDLY, WE HAVE DOHA AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES SIGNED IN FEBRUARY LAST YEAR.

AND BASED ON THAT AGREEMENT, WE HAVE COMMITMENT NOT TO ALLOW ANY INDIVIDUAL OR GROUP OR ENTITY TO USE THE -- OF AFGHANISTAN AGAINST UNITED STATES ITS ALLY AGAINST OTHER COUNTS.

WE CONSIDER THIS OUR NATIONAL INTEREST NOT TO ALLOW ANYONE.

WHILE AT THAT TIME WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT AGREEMENT.

AND WHEN AT THAT TIME, WE WERE NOT PART WHAT WAS THEN --. WE WERE NOT PART OF THAT.

TRUE.LL THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY

WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.

-- AND THEY SAID IN ISLAMABAD AND YOU WERE ALSO THERE.

I CERTAINLY WAS.

AND I ADMIT SEVERAL TIMES AT THE TIME --

-- GAVE --

SO AT THAT TIME CONVENED PRESS CONFERENCE STRONGLY CONDEMNED 9/11 AND SHOWED OUR READINESS THAT WE ARE READY TO HELP IN -- IN PARTIAL -- IN MITIGATION OF THAT.

OF COURSE NONE OF THAT EVER OSAMA BIN LADEN HIS REFUGEAVE THERE.

-- LET ME CONTINUE --

-- SORRY.

WE HAVE SENT A MESSAGE TO ALL, ALL THOSE WHO -- WHO HAVE AN AGENDA AND THEY ARE USING THE SIGN OF AFGHANISTAN, THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN AFGHANISTAN.

THAT IS OUR COMMITMENT.

-- ALLOW ANYONE --UT WOMEN.

-- TRAINING CENTER, RECRUITMENT CENTER.

FUNDRAISING CENTER.

IT IS CLEARLY IN THE AGREEMENT.

WE WILL NOT ALLOW.

IF THERE IS ANYONE CAN SOMEONE

OKAY.THERE IS THAT CENTER.

WELL YOU CAN BE SURE EVERYBODY ISSUE.NG TO KEEP A CLOSE EYE ONR BUT I DO WANT TO ASK ABOUT WOMEN.

BECAUSE THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE IN YOUR COUNTRY AND WOMEN HAVE BENEFITTED SO MUCH OVER THE LAS.

MANY OF THEM.

LET ME READ WHAT AN AFGHAN JOURNALIST HAS WRITTEN ABOUT AN INTERVIEW SHE HAD WITH YOU IN DOE HALFTIME THIS IS HOW SHE DESCRIBED IT.

THIS IS THE 'NEW YORK TIMES.'

AFTER MEETING WITH YOU MY ENCOUNTER THE -- AND.

--

-- HOLD ON.

HOLD ON.

WHEN HE FINALLY ANSWERED ONE OF MY QUESTIONS HIS EYES MOVED IN EVERY DIRECTION BUT MINE.

HE EXAMINED THE WALL, THE CARPET ON THE FLOOR T CHAIR T DOOR.

HE COULDN'T EVEN LOOK AT ME.

EVEN WHILE I STOOD IN FRONT OF HIM.

IT WAS IF HE SAW ME AS AN EMBODIMENT OF SIN AND EVIL.

SO WHAT CAN YOU SAY TO THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN?

WILL THEY BE TREATED AS ORDINARY HUMAN BEINGS WITH HUMAN RIGHTS WHO HAVE THE RIGHT TO TALK TO SOMEBODY LIKE YOU, TO GO TO SCHOOL, TO WORK?

WILL THEY BE ALLOWED TO HAVE THAT?

BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE THAT UNDER YOUR PREVIOUS RULE IN AFGHANISTAN.

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR ABOUT THAT LADY, SAY THAT HE WAS NOT SEEING AT ME, LOOKING AT ME.

FIRST AT THAT TIME MANY JOURNALISTS, MANY JOURNALISTS, THEY ASK ME FOR INTERVIEW.

BUT WHEN SHE ASKED ME, I PREPARED HER AND THAT SHE IS A LADY AND I'M AFGHAN.

OVER OTHER JOURNALISTS I PREFER HER I TOLD FIRST I WILL GIVE YOU INTERVIEW, THEN TO OTHERS.

SO THIS IS ONE THING.

WHY DIDN'T SHE SAY THAT IN HER ARTICLE?

IF SHE WANTS TO MAKE FAKE CASE AND WANTED TAKE ASYLUM IN THE WESTERN COUNTRY AND USES THIS SCENE AS A FAKE REASONS, I THINK IT IS NOT GOOD FOR HER PERSONALITY.

WHEN SHOULD BE TRUE AT LEAST FOR HER CONSCIENCE.

I PREPARED HER OR OTHER JOURNALISTS OFF VERY FAMOUS MEDIA OUTLETS AND I WAS THERE AND --

ALL RIGHT.

-- AT THAT TIME.

MR. SHAHEEN --

-- OTHER JOURNALISTS.

I'VE GOT MOVE ON, SIR.

SO 50 JOURNALISTS INCLUDING 15 FEMALES HAVE HAD TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN.

MANY JOURNALISTS AND JUDGES AND TEACHERS.

WE WILL COME BACK TO THIS DISCUSSION.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND IT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

BUT I'M GOING TO HAVE TO GO TOT?

THANK YOU FROM DOHA.

I CAN'T RIGHT NOW.

I'M RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

THE UNITED STATES HAS WELCOMEDTD COMMITTED TO ACTUALLY ADVANCING THE AFGHANISTAN PEACE PROCESS.

SO LET'S GET THE PERSPECTIVE NOW FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

INTERVIEW IS SENIOR MEMBER OF THE AFGHAN PEACE NEGOTIATION TEAM.

I DON'T KNOW HOW SURPRISED YOU TO. BY WHAT WE'VE JUST LISTENING BUT WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ITEM ON YOUR AGENDA AND ON THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS AGENDA FROM THE AFGHAN SIDE RIGHT NOW?

IS IT ABOUT THE FOREIGN FORCES AND KEEPING THEM OUT?

IS IT ABOUT KEEPING, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND OTHERS WHO HAVE BENEFITTED FROM THE LAST 20 YEARS?

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET OUT OF THESE TALKS?

WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRIS.

I'M CERTAINLY SURPRISED.

BECAUSE IN THE PAST 10 MONTHS WE KEEP PUSHING FOR PEACEFUL SETTLEMENT.

WE HAVE SHOWN EVERY MOMENT THE SENSE OF URGENCY TO END THIS CONFLICT THROUGH PEACEFUL MEANS.

WHAT IS ON OUR AGENDA IS AN IMMEDIATE CEASE FIRE AND A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT.

WE HAVE JUST CONCLUDED TWO DAYS OF SENIOR LEVEL TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN IN DOHA.

AND EVERY ATTEMPT THAT WE HAVE MADE TO SHOW FLEXIBILITY, CREATIVITY AND COMMITMENT TO END THIS WAR THROUGH PEACEFUL MEANS WERE NOT AGREED UPON.

WE HAVE TRIED TO FIND A COMMON GROUND.

AND TRIED TO SHOW THE PEACEFUL PATH THAT IS IN THE BENEFIT OF OUR PEOPLE.

WE DID SUGGEST THAT WE NEED TO MAKE A CEASE FIRE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

BECAUSE OUR PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.

CHRISTIANE, MY OTHER HAD I WARE IS I CHAIR CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

WE HAVE LOOKED IN THE PAST THREE WEEKS OF THE CONFLICT AND SAW WHERE THE TALIBAN HAVE TAKEN OVER OR THE FIGHTS HAVE CARRIED OUT, WHAT WAS THE DAMAGE?

AND 160 DISTRICTS WE HAVE SEEN 260 PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION BUILDINGS AND INFRASTRUCTURE WERE DESTROYED.

THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT COST FOR A POOR COUNTRY LIKE US.

PART OF IT WHICH WAS PAID BY GENEROUSLY BY THE UNITED STATES AND OUR OTHER ALLY.

AT THE SAME TIME LOT OF OFFICES WERE LOOTED.

A LOT OF CIVILIANS WERE KILLED.

WE NEED TO END THIS WAR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

WOMEN RIGHTS ARE NOT SOMETHING THAT --

SO --

--

YEAH, I WANT TO ASK YOU -- I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MR. SHAHEEN JUST SAID.

HE WAS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE ISSUE OF ROLLING UP TERRITORY UNDER THE GUISE OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

HE SAID WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.

WE'RE NOT ON THE OFFENSIVE.

THEY ARE COMING TO US.

THEY ARE NEGOTIATING TO US.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON HOW MUCH TERRITORY IS FALLING VOLUNTARILY BY PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT HAVE ANYMORE FAITH IN THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AFTER ALL THESE YEARS?

WELL THERE HAVE BEEN A SMALLER NUMBER OF DISTRICTS WHO TURNED DOWN, PUT THEIR GUNS IN AND LEFT THE DISTRICTS AND IT WAS PART OF DEALING OR --. WE HAVE HAD SOME SETBACKS BUT YOU LOOK AT THE INDICATORS CHRISTIANE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DISPLACED FROM THE DISTRICT WHERE IS THE TALIBAN ARE RUNNING IS APPALLING.NG TAKEN OVER, IT UNITED NATIONS JUST REPORTED LAST WEEK THAT IT IS AROUND 65,000 PEOPLE WERE DISPLACED.

THAT IS ONE INDICATOR.

IF PEOPLE ARE VOLUNTARILY TURNING DOWN THEIR GUNS TO THEM OR THEIR TERRITORY, THEN WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING?

WHAT'S HAPPENING IS COMBINATION OF TACTICS.

THERE IS INTIMIDATION TO THE COMMUNITY.

COMMUNITIES ARE BEING PROVIDED WITH TWO OPTIONS.

FORCES TO LEAVE THEIR GUNS AND LEAVE FROM THE PROVINCE SO THAT FROM THE DISTRICTS SO THEY CAN USE IT AS A PROPAGANDA TOOL, OR YOU WILL FACE THE CONSEQUENCES.

THERE HAVE BEEN HEAVY FIGHTS IN NUMBER OF PROVINCES WAVES AFTER WAVE OF ATTACK BY THE TALIBAN.

USING NIGHT VISION AND THERMAL WEAPONS DETECTIONS AT THE NIGHT AND SNIPERS BUT OUR FORCES ARE PUSHING THEM BACK FROM CITIES AND PROVINCE LIKE -- NOW, THIS IS NOT ACCURATE --

OKAY.

LET ME ASK YOU NEXT.

SURE.

SORRY.

YOU HEARD MR. SHAHEEN SAID THAT THEY HAVE ESSENTIALLY CHANGED.

HE BASICALLY THE SAID.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANY DISRUPTIVE FOREIGN FORCES TO COME INTO AFGHANISTAN AND USE OUR COUNTRY AS A PLATFORM TO ALLIES OR ANYBODY ELSE.

THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND WHO WANT TO SEE THE U.S. PULL OUT BELIEVE THAT THE TALIBAN CARES ABOUT INTERNATIONAL ACCEPTANCE AND LEGITIMACY.

DO YOU BELIEVE THE TALIBAN CARES ABOUT THAT?

AND DO YOU BELIEVE A VERY CLEAR STATEMENT THAT MR. SHAHEEN SAID.

THAT THEY WILL NOT ALLOW AND THEY WILL COME TO AGREEMENTS THEY WILL NOT ALLOW FOREIGN DISRUPTIVE FORCES INTO AFGHANISTAN IN THE FUTURE.

CHRISTIANE, THE DOHA AGREEMENT HAD LOT OF WORDS AND LOT OF CONCESSION FROM THE AGAINST WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO NOT ALLOW TERRORIST GROUPS BUT LOOK AT THE UNITED THIRD PARTY REPORT.

THE UNITED NATIONS JUST LAST MONTH SUBMITTED REPORT TO SECURITY COUNCIL THAT CONFIRMED THERE IS STRONGER TIE IN GROWING TIE BETWEEN TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA AND NEVER BEEN A SEPARATION.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN PUBLIC ELIMINATION AND DENOUNCEIATION OF AL QAEDA AND OTHER TERRORIST GROUPS BY THE TALIBAN AND WE DO SEE THERE ARE AFFILIATION.

FOREIGN FIGHTERS FIGHTING, FOR EXAMPLE, IN WHERE TALIBAN AND FOREIGN FIGHTERS THAT, TERRORIST GROUPS RUN DISTRICT AND THEN EXTRAJUDICIALLY KILLED THOSE SOLDIERS WHO SURRENDERED THEMSELVES AND THOSE FOOTAGES WERE RELEASED BY CNN ALSO.

SO THERE IS A LARGE NUMBER OF MAJOR INTERNATIONAL CRIMES ARE HAPPENING AND BEING COMMITTED BY THE TALIBAN EVERY DAY AND THEY ARE FACILITATING THE GROUND FOR THOSE KIND OF GROUPS TO OPERATE.

NOW, THAT IS WHY WE SAY LET'S DO NOT REPEAT THE PAST.

AND LET'S COME TO A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A SHARED FUTURE FOR PEOPLE.

TO DEVELOP.

SO LET'S TALK A LITTLE ABOUT HOPES AND DREAMS.

YOUR COUNTRY'S BEEN IN FOUR DECADES OF THE WORST KIND OF OCCUPATION, CIVIL WAR, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE SITUATION.

AND MANY PEOPLE, I GUESS YOU ARE PART OF THAT GENERATION.

MANY WOMEN CERTAINLY, HAVE BENEFITTED.

AND I JUST WONDER WHAT YOU THINK YOURSELF, YOU KNOW, YOU STAND TO POTENTIALLY LOSE UNDER THIS WITHDRAWAL AND THE END OF THE U.S. INVOLVEMENT.

AND WHAT YOU HAVE GAINED IN THIS LAST 20 YEARS.

WELL, CHRISTIANE THERE IS THIS ASSUMPTION THAT DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND WOMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS ARE PHENOMENAS THAT CAME WITH THE UNITED STATES INTERVENTION IN AFGHANISTAN.

THAT IS NOT HISTORICALLY CORRECT.

AFGHANS, MY FATHER AND MANY OTHERS HAVE FOUGHT FOR THESE FREEDOMS FOR OUR CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY.

THERE HAVE BEEN NUMBER OF WOMAN LEADERS, FOR DECADES THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR MORE EQUAL RIGHT FOR AFGHAN WOMEN.

THE INTERVENTION OF INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATE POST 9/11 JUST EXPANDED THE SPACE FOR US AND ALLOWED US TO GROW FASTER AND INSTITUTIONALIZE SOME OF THOSE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AND THE LIBERTIES THAT OUR PEOPLE ARE IN LOVE WITH AND SACRIFICE SO MUCH FOR IT.

THE EIGHTIES, LOT OF WHAT HAPPENS HAPPENING AGAINST THE SOVIETS WAS TO UPHOLD OUR TRADITIONAL WAYS OF LOVING FREEDOMS AND EQUALITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN.

THOSE SOME OF WHICH ARE INSTITUTIONALIZED IN THE PAST 20 YEARS OR CONSTITUTION, BILL OF RIGHTSS, THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL PART OF TODAY'S AFGHANISTAN.

ENTIRE NEW GENERATION THAT WANTS DIFFERENT FUTURE FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

AND THEY WOULD BE UP THERE.

THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THIS AFGHANISTAN OR FOR GROWTH OF THIS AFGHANISTAN.

THAT INSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S BEEN THERE, ALL OF THOSE ARE WHAT OUR PEOPLE ARE CHERISHING AND THEY HAVE BEEN SACRIFICING NUMBER OF GENERATIONS FOR THOSE.

AND WE DON'T WANT TO JUST LET IT GO.

IF THE TALIBAN BELIEVING THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE IT BY FORCE IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

AFGHANS ARE JUST LOOKING IN THE NUMBERS OF THE POPULATION NUMBER OF DISTRICTS THEY HAVE TAKEN ARE MAKING ONE-THIRD OF THE POPULATION.

YOU CAN LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF CONSENSUS THE PAST THREE, FOUR YEARS AND YOU COULD CONCLUDE IT IS ONLY 13 MILLION AND IT IS ONE-THIRD OF THE POPULATION.

TWO THIRD OF POPULATION, THE CENTERS OF POPULATION T CITY ASKS -- PROTECTED BY FORCES AND -- STAND FOR DIFFERENT AFGHANISTAN WHICH IS A SOURCE OF HOPE AND INSPIRATION TO ME AND TO MANY OTHERS.

YEAH.

AND SO MANY EYES ARE ON YOUR COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> NOW MY NEXT GUEST IS THE AWARD WINNING AUTHOR CHIMAMANDA.

HER LATEST BOOK STRIKES MUCH CLOSER TO HOME.

NOTES ON GRIEF IS AN OUTPOURING OF LOVE TO HER FATHER WHO DIED IN THE MIDST OF THE PANDEMIC LAST YEAR AND IT IS HER REFLECTIONS ON THAT LOSS.

JUST BEFORE IT WAS PUBLISHED SHE SUFFERED ANOTHER DEVASTATING BLOW.

ADICHIE JOINS ME NOW FROM LAGOS NIGERIA.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I MUST OFFER MY CONDOLENCES AND START TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS AMAZING PIECE OF WORK.

AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU HOW YOU HAVE BEEN PROCESSING THIS GRIEF.

BECAUSE YOU WRITE ABOUT IT WITH SO MUCH EMOTION AND OF COURSE IT IS SO DIFFERENT.

THE IGBO TRIBE, YOU KNOW, MANIFESTATION OF GRIEF COMPARED TO PERHAPS IT HAPPENS OVER HERE IN THE WEST.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU ARE PROCESSING THIS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW I'M PROCESSING IT.

BECAUSE I THINK I'M STILL IN TH.

AND CAN I JUST SAY HOW LOVELY IT IS TO SEE YOU AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR COURAGE AND YOUR BRAVERY.

BECAUSE I THINK THAT TELLING US ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL LIFE HAS INSPIRED SO MANY WOMEN AND EDUCATED SO MANY WOMEN.

SO THANK YOU.

I DON'T KNOW, I THINK I'M LEARNING HOW GRIEF IS NOT SOMETHING THAT ONE CAN -- OH I'M LEARNING HOW LANGUAGE HAS FAILED ME.

AND I'M LEARNING HOW IT IS SUCH ON ONGOING PROCESS AND IT IS SUCH A MULTI FACETED PROCESS.

AND THERE ARE DAYS WHEN I THINK THAT I'M KIND OF GOING TO BE OKAY.

AND THERE ARE DAYS WHEN I JUST KIND OF BELIEVE WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US AND I REALLY HAVE TO FIGHT NOT ON OVERWHELMED BY DESPAIR AND KIND OF EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS OF EVERYTHING.

AND I FEEL AS --

-- YOU KNOW, I WONDER WHETHER BECAUSE YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT GAINING A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF COMFORT FROM THE RITUALS.

AND I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU DO GRIEVE, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR FAMILY, IN YOUR COMMUNITY COMPARED TO HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE IN AMERICA OR ELSEWHERE ARE PROCESSING GRIEF.

BECAUSE IT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD OF COURSE WITH THE COVID YEARS.

CAN YOU MAKE THAT DISTINCTION?

I THINK THERE ARE TWO THINGS.

BOTH MY PARENTS WERE CATHOLIC.

AND -- THAT'S OUR ETHNIC GROUP.

THE FUNERAL WERE BOTH OF THEM WERE CATHOLIC AND EBO.

WE HAVE HAD THE CATHOLIC MASS WHICH I FOUND SURPRISINGLY COMFORTING AS WELL.

I DID THE READINGS AT THE MASSES AND ONE READING IN ENGLISH AND ONE IN EBU.

AND EVEN THAT FELT COMFORTING BECAUSE MASS WAS SUCH A CENTRAL PART OF MY PARENT'S LIFE.

AND THEN THE EBU FUNERAL PART OF IT WHICH IS ACTUALLY KIND OF LIKE A CELEBRATION.

AND BEFORE THE FUNERALS I FELT VERY UPSET AT THE THOUGHT OF HAVING TO CELEBRATE.

BECAUSE I JUST THOUGHT THE MOST DEVASTATING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO ME HAS JUST HAPPENED.

I DO NOT WANT TO BLOODY DANCE.

BUT THEN AT THE FUNERAL I ACTUALLY FOUND IT VERY COMFORTING TO BE SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE TO DANCE, TO HOLD UP MY PARENTS PHOTOGRAPHS SO THERE IS A RITUAL IN WHICH YOU HOLD YOUR PHOTOGRAPH OF THE LOVED ONE WHO'S PASSED ON AND YOU KIND OF LAMENT.

SO I'M DANCING AND LAMENTING AND SINGING MY FATHER IS GONE AND HE WAS A GREAT MAN AND I STARTED TO UNDERSTAND THERE IS THAT A SENSE IN WHICH VOCALIZING PAIN IN THAT KIND OF COMMUNAL WAY CAN ACTUALLY BE -- BE COMFORTING.

YOU WROTE THERE IS VALUE IN THAT IGBO THAT THE FORMATIVE, EXPRESSIVE OUTWARD MOURNING.

AND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED A LOT OF THAT.

AND ALSO SAID THAT GRIEF IS A CRUEL KIND OF EDUCATION.

AND YOU HAVE TALKED JUST NOW ABOUT BEING CATHOLIC AND EGBO.

I THINK YOU DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS A QUESTIONING CATHOLIC.

HOW HAS YOUR FAITH UNDERPINNED NOT JUST THIS LOSS BUT WHAT EVERYBODY YOU AND OTHERS HAVEBEE COVID.

OH I DON'T THINK I WE HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MY FAITH.

IF ANYTHING, I THINK ONE OF THE ALSO HOW IT BRINGS A KIND OFHUN.

A HUNGER FOR COMFORT.

FOR ANSWERS AND ONE OF THEM TURNS TO I GUESS RELIGION.

AND SO WHAT'S HAPPENED TO ME IS THAT I HAVE STARTED GOING TO YEARS.WHICH I HADN'T DONE IN AND PART OF IT, I THINK IS THAT I WANT TO START TO PERFORM THE RITUALS OF BROUGHT SO MUCH COMFORT TO MY PARENTS.

MAY PARENTS WENT. CHURCH THAT AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS FOR ME ABOUT JUST SITTING THERE AND IMAGINING THEM THERE.

AND I'M STILL QUESTIONING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, DEATH IS SO FINAL.

AND SO UNKNOWABLE.

THAT I THINK IT ONLY MAKES SENSE TO TRY AND FIND ANSWERS IN THINGS THAT ARE INCOMPLETE.

BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE WHOLE POINT OF FAITH IS THAT ONE CAN NEVER KNOW FULLY.

AND SO I KIND OF FIND MYSELF BEING IN A PLACE WHERE I'M LOOKING FOR ANSWERS AND A CERTAIN KIND OF RELIGIOUS RITUAL IS NOT SO MUCH GIVING ME THE FINAL ANSWER BUT KIND OF GIVING PEACE.IND OF -- A KIND OF A I'VE FOUND THAT FOR ME, IT DOESN'T COMFORT ME WHEN PEOPLE SORT OF SAY THINGS THAT I THINK ARE PLATITUDES, WHEN PEOPLE SAY OH THEY ARE NOW ANGELS AND THEY ARE WATCHING OVER YOU.

BECAUSE IT JUST SEEMS TO ME A BIT TOO SIMPLISTIC.

BUT WHEN IT IS THE KIND OF -- WHEN YOU HEAR FROM PEOPLE WHO SAY THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT PROCESS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO LIVE WITH FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE TO FIND A CERTAIN KIND OF PEACE.

THAT MAKES MORE SENSE TO ME.

AND YOU OBVIOUSLY SO CLOSE TO BOTH YOUR PARENTS, PARTICULARLY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST LOVING HIM AS A FATHER BUT YOU LIKED HIM AS A PERSON.

YOU WRITE HE MADE ME FEEL THAT I DID NOT HAVE TO APOLOGIZE FOR BEING WHO I WAS OR FEEL THAT I HAVE TO SHING MYSELF.

HE REALLY MADE ME BRAVE.

WHERE DOES THAT BRAVERY FIT ROUND?

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT, WHAT ITEM OF BRAVERY DO YOU HANG ON RIGHT NO NOW?E TO YOUR FATHER

IT IS ACTUALLY DIFFICULT TO DECIDE WHAT ITEM OF BRAVERY.

I THINK MY HABITING THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT REFUSES TO APOLOGIZEA MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER.SED BY I THINK BECAUSE MY PARENTS GAVE ME ROOM TO BE WHO I WAS.

AND BECAUSE THEIR LOVE WAS SO UNCONDITIONAL, I'VE NEVER FELT THE NEED TO PERFORM LIKABILITY.

I LOVE TO BE LIKED.

I THINK MOST DO.

BUT I'VE NEVER NEEDED TO BE LIKED.

I THINK IN SOME WAYS BECAUSE I HAD ENOUGH FROM MY PARENTS.

SO THERE IS A SENSE WHICH I DIDN'T FEEL A LACK AND HAD TO APOLOGIZE TO THE WORLD FOR BEING WHO I AM.

I THINK ITS ENABLED ME TO SPEAK MY MIND, TO STAND UP FOR WHAT I BELIEVE IN.

AND THIS OBVIOUSLY LEADS ME DOWN TO SOME MORE NITTY-GRITTY.

BECAUSE YOU ARE A VERY IMPORTANT WRITER, THINKER.

YOU HAVE GOT SO MANY MILLIONS OF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN YOU ON TED AND ALL OVER THE PLACE AND PEOPLE FOLLOW WHAT YOU SAY VERY VERY CLOSELY.

YOU KNOW WHERE I'M GOING OBVIOUSLY WITH THIS.

BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT REFUSING TO APOLOGIZE FOR WHO YOU ARE.

AND I GUESS IT DATES BACK TO THE 2017 INTERVIEW WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT TRANS WOMEN AND YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, A TRANS WOMAN IS A TRANS WOMAN.

AND YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T MEAN TO CAUSE ANY HARM.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THAT.

YOU HAVE SAID THERE ARE SO MANY SOCIAL MEDIA SAVVY PEOPLE WHO ARE CHOKING ON SANCTIMONY AND LACKING IN COMPASSION WHO CAN FLUIDLY PONTIFICATE ON TWITTER ABOUT KINDNESS BUT UNABLE TO ACTUALLY SHOW KINDNESS.

SO WE HAVE A GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA TODAY SO TERRIFIED OF HAVING THE WRONG OPINIONS THAT THEY HAVE ROBBED THEMSELVES OF THE OPPORTUNITY T.

HOW HAVE YOU THOUGHT AND LEARNED AND GROW FROM THIS SITUATION, FROM THE BACKLASH, AND FROM WHAT YOU HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH AND WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GRAPPLING WITH IN THE CULTURE WARS AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA?

ONE OF THE THINGS, SO I FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT BEING ALLOWED TO THINK FOR MYSELF.

-- INTERESTED IN LIVING THE LIFE OF THE MIND.

SO I THINK AND I READ, A LOT.

AND SO I JUST REFUSE TO BE TOLD HOW TO THINK.

I CAN THINK FOR MYSELF.

AND AFTER THAT HAPPENED, ACTUALLY, WHAT I THEN WANT TO DO IS READ.

BECAUSE I DIDN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND WHY THERE WAS MUCH BACKLASH ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I THOUGHT WAS FAIRLY INNOCUOUS.

AND EVEN SELF EVIDENT.

AND SO I STARTED TO READ.

I READ QUITE A BIT ABOUT, ABOUT THAT SUBJECT.

I FEEL QUITE EDUCATED ON IT.

AND THERE IS A SENSE IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, I'M ABLE TO MAKE UP MY MIND ABOUT WHAT I THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS A LARGER PROBLEM.

IT IS A LARGER PROBLEM ABOUT THIS KIND OF PEOPLE FEELING COMPELLED TO CONFORM.

AND ALSO THE END OF GOOD FAITH.

SO NOW -- EXCHANGING IDEAS IN GOOD FAITH.

IT IS ABOUT THE KIND OF -- PERFORMANCE.

AND YOU HAVE PEOPLE REPEATING MANTRAS THEY CAN'T REALLY EXPLAIN AND THEY DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND AND THEY ARE TERRIFIED OF ASKING QUESTIONS BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF BACKLASH.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW.

I THINK THAT AS HUMAN BEINGS WE ARE -- THERE IS SOMETHING SORT OF CONSERVATIVE ABOUT US WHERE WE DON'T WANT TO PUT OURSELVES OUT THERE.

SO IF EVERYBODY IS SAYING THIS THING I BETTER SAY IT.

BUT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN THE PERSON TO WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE WHY AND HOW AND NUANCES OF THINGS.

AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT I REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE IN KIND OF ORTHODOXY THAT TO ME DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

AND I THINK THERE IS A KIND OF, THIS -- THERE IS SO MUCH TALK ABOUT FREE SPEECH IN THE WEST.

AND BY THE WEST, I MEAN THE U.S.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT IS IN FACT NOW PART OF THE WORLD WHERE ONE IS CONSTANTLY COMPELLED TO SAY THINGS IN A PARTICULAR WAY, OTHERWISE THE KIND OF CENSURE THAT YOU GET IS TERRIBLE.

AND I FIND THAT TROUBLING FOR SO MANY REASONS.

-- BAD FOR THE FUTURE OF ART, FOR EXAMPLE.

--

LET ME JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY GRAPPLING WITH.

THIS AS LOT OF PEOPLE.

INCLUDING YOUNG PEOPLE AT COLLEGES THE WHOLE IDEA OF CANCEL CULTURE AND WHERE THE LINES ARE.

SOME HAVE SAID THAT CRITICIZING CANCEL CULTURE IS A WAY OF SHIRKING SORT OF, YOU KNOW, RESPONSIBILITY OR SHIELDING ONE SELF FROM RESPONSIBILITY FROM LEGITIMATE CRITICISM.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

I'M ALL FOR LEGITIMATE CRITICISM.

AND I SHOULD ALSO SAY THAT I DON'T NECESSARILY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SUCH A THING AS ABSOLUTE FREE SPEECH.

WHICH IS WHY, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE AND SHOUT 'FIRE' WHEN THERE ISN'T A FIRE.

BUT I DO BELIEVE IT IS POSSIBLE TO GO TOO FAR IN KIND OF THINKING ABOUT ISSUES OF SOCIAL JUSTICE.

I THINK IT IS VERY EASY TO PATRONIZE AN OPPRESSED -- IN NAME OF PROTECTING THEM.

SO LEGITIMATE CRITICISM IS ONE THING.

HOW DO PEOPLE, FOR HAVING AN OPINION THAT COMES FROM AN EMOTIONALLY INTELLIGENT PLACE IS ANOTHER THING.

THERE IS A DIFFERENT.

AND I THINK AS HUMAN BEINGS WE SHOULD HAVE THE KIND OF INTELLIGENCE, THE KIND OF NUANCE THINKING TO MAKE THE DISTINCTION.

AND SO IT IS VERY EASY TO SAY YOU CAN'T CRITICIZE CANCEL CULTURE BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT YOU WANT TO GET AWAY WITH AND THIS IS A WORD THAT'S BECOME QUITE COMMON, VIOLENCE AND AWORD I THINK -- MEANINGLESS.

IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO HAVE REAL CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE UNCOMFORTABLE.

WE DO NOT ALL HAVE TO AGREE.

AND DISAGREEING DOESN'T HAVE TO MEAN THAT ONE WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, DEPRIVE PEOPLE OF CERTAIN RIGHTS.

I'M A PERSON WHO BELIEVES VERY STRONGLY IN THE RIGHTS OF EVERY MINORITY AND OPPRESSED GROUP.

I'VE ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT.

BUT AGAIN IT IS REALLY A QUESTION OF I CAN THINK FOR MYSELF.

I'VE READ BOOKS AND I JUST REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE IN AN ORTHODOXY THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME.

IT IS SO INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU OUT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

> SO WE BEGAN THE PROGRAM EARLIER BY TALKING ABOUT THE DURABILITY OF DEMOCRACY IN AFGHANISTAN.

SIMILAR CONCERNS GRIP THE WORLD'S OLDEST DEMOCRACY, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

AND IT IS UNDERSCORED BY THIS QUESTION.

IN THE WANING DAYS OF HIS PRESIDENCY, WOULD DONALD TRUMP MANUFACTURE A WAR WITH IRAN SIMPLY TO STAY IN POWER?

THAT FEAR CONSUMED GENERAL MARK MILLEY WHO WAS THEN AND REMAINS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

THE NEW YORKER SUSAN GLASSER REVEALED THIS EXTRAORDINARILY CLASH.

AND HERE SHE IS TALKING ABOUT IT WITH MICHELLE MARTIN.

THANKS CHRISTIANE.

SUSAN GLASSER THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE SEVEN MONTHS INTO THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY, AND YET, THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS STILL DOMINATING CORNERS OF THE NEWS.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW THERE'S BEEN A FLOOD OF ARTICLES ABOUT BOTH THE END OF HIS PRESIDENCY, BUT ALSO HIS BUSINESS DEALS PRE PRESIDENCY.

WHAT ARE THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL THINGS THAT WE'VE LEARNED ABOUT THOSE FINAL MONTHS OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

WELL I THINK FOR ME CERTAINLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS REALLY STUNNING WAS TO HEAR THE ACCOUNTS AND TO DO REPORTING ABOUT THE SORT OF BACKSTAGE STRUGGLE, REALLY AN UNPRECEDENTED STRUGGLE I SHOULD SAY BETWEEN THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF MARK MILLEY WHO REMAINS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF EVEN UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, BETWEEN MILLY AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WHICH REALLY WENT ON FROM JUNE 1st LAST YEAR IN THAT INFAMOUS LAFAYETTE SQUARE PHOTO.

MILLY WAS CAUGHT UP IN IT.

HE WAS WEARING HIS COMBAT FATIGUES.

HE LATER APOLOGIZED FOR THIS, HN ANYWHERE NEAR THIS HIGHLY POLITICIZED EFFORT TO ESSENTIALLY PUT THE MILITARY ON DONALD TRUMP'S SIDE OF A VERY, VERY RAW DISPUTE OVER THE NATURE OF PROTESTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND FROM THEN ON, MILLIE BACKSTAGE WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT TWO THINGS.

ONE WAS THAT TRUMP WOULD ATTEMPT TO FURTHER POLITICIZE THE MILITARY OR TO LAUNCH A COUP IN A SENSE OF TRYING TO USE THE MILITARY, PUT THEM IN THE STREETS IN ORDER TO ILLEGITIMATELY REMAIN IN POWER AFTER THE ELECTION.

AND THEN THE OTHER WAS HIS CONCERN THAT TRUMP WAS DRIVINGTS WITH IRAN, PERHAPS LAUNCHING A MISSILE STRIKE THAT WOULD ESCALATE INTO A FULL SCALE WAR WITH IRAN, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE.

THAT'S A STORY THAT YOU BROKR ABOUT GENERAL MILLEY'S FIGHT TO STOP TRUMP FROM STRIKING IRAN AND START A WAR.

TELL US MORE ABOUT THE STORY THERE.

AND WHY THAT?

WHY IRAN?

WHY THAT PARTICULAR MOVE?

WELL, LOOK, IRAN FIRST OF ALL, INTERESTINGLY IS ONE OF ALL FOUR YEARS OF THE TRUMPUGH PRESIDENCY.

AS YOU RECALL HE STARTED OUT BY BEING VERY HAWKISH ON IRAN.

HE HIRED A SLEW OF ADVISORS, PEOPLE LIKE MIKE POMPEO, MINTZ.

HE HAD FOUR NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISORS, ALL OF THEM WERE IRAN HOCKS IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

TRUMP PULLED OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL.

HE CALLED IT THE WORST DEAL EVER.

AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF 20 HE LAUNCHED A MISSILE STRIKE ON QASEM SOLEIMANI WHO WAS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL FIGURES INSIDE IRAN, THE IRANIAN MILITARY.

AND REALLY THROUGHOUT 2020, EVEN DURING THE PANDEMIC, AND ESPECIALLY EVEN AFTER THE ELECTION, HIS ADVISORS, I THINK THEY WANTED TO FINISH WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD STARTED WITH THIS MAXIMUM PRESSURE CAMPAIGN ON IRAN.

THERE WAS REALLY A MOVEMENT TOWARDS REGIME CHANGE INSIDE THE ADMINISTRATION THROUGHOUT.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS A MORE AM THAT.ALENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS SOME OF HIS ADVISORs BUT HE WAS CONSTANTLY TEMPTED BY IT AND.

WHAT ALARMED MILLY IS THIS LINKAGE HIS ADVISORS WERE MAKING EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF 2020 BETWEEN TRUMP'S POLITICAL STATUS AND THE ELECTORAL SITUATION AND MILITARY ACTION.

AND OF COURSE THAT'S NOT A REASON, A LEGITIMATE REASON, TO LAUNCH MILITARY ACTION IS IF YOU THINK IT WILL BENEFIT YOU POLITICALLY OR IF YOU THINK HIS ADVISORS WERE EXPLICITLY SAYING IF WE LOSE THE ELECTION, THEN WE SHOULD DO THIS AND TRY TO TAKE OUT THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT IS VERY ALARMING.

BASED ON YOUR REPORTING, REAL CRISIS?LOSE WERE WE TO A YES, YOU HAVE -- YOU'VE VERY AMPLY AND IN GREAT DETAIL DESCRIBED MILLEY'S CONCERN.

BUT BASED ON YOUR REPORTING NOW AND ALL THE REPORTING COME OUT SINCE, HOW CLOSE WERE YOU TO A REAL CRISIS IN YOUR VIEW?

WELL IN SOME WAYS, YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION IS IN INSIDE OF CAN'T GET INTO.HEAD, WHICH WE BUT I CAN SAY THAT GENERAL MILLEY TOLD ASSOCIATES THAT HE BELIEVED WE HAD COME VERY CLOSE TO A CONFLICT WITH IRAN AND THAT IT WAS A MUCH CLOSER CALL THAN PEOPLE REALIZE, FIRST OF ALL.

SECOND OF ALL, YOU KNOW, HE SAW THESE AS INTERTWINED, QUOTE, NIGHTMARE SCENARIOS.

AND IT DIDN'T PLAY OUT EXACTLY AS HE FEARED.

BUT ON JANUARY 3rd WAS THE VERY LAST TIME THAT THE CHAIRMAN ANDE WITH DONALD TRUMP, HIS COMMANDE.

IRAN.HAT MEETING WAS ALL ABOUT ONCE AGAIN TRUMP PUSHING TALKING ABOUT IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM, WHAT COULD BE DONE ABOUT IT AND IT WAS ONLY WHEN TWO OF HIS VERY HAWKISH ADVISORS ACCORDING TO WHAT MILLEY TOLD TWO OF HIS ASSOCIATES, MIKE POMPEO AND ROBERT O'BRIEN BASICALLY SAID LOOK, BOSS, IT IS TOO LATE.

WE ARE LAME DUCKS.

YOU ARE LEAVING OFFICE.

AND REMARKABLY, YOU KNOW, AT THE VERY END OF THAT MEETING THEN YOU HAVE TRUMP BRINGING UP THE JANUARY 6 UPCOMING PROTEST AND SAYING TO MILLEY AND HIS ACTING DEFENSE SECRETARY, 'ARE YOU READY FOR IT?

IT IS GOING TO BE HUGE.'

JUST THIS CHILLING MOMENT.

AND JANUARY 6th IS NOT EXACTLY THE HITLER ROOISH TYPE SCENARIO MILLEY WARNED ABOUT IN THAT HE THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE RUNNING STREET BATTLES, AS THERE HAD BEEN EARLIER IN WASHINGTON D.C.

BETWEEN PRO TRUMP MILITIA TYPES AND ANTI-TRUMP DEMONSTRATORS AND THAT TRUMP WOULD USE THAT PERHAPS AS A PRETEXT FOR CALLING IN THE MILITARY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, EVEN GENERALLY MILLEY DID NOT ENVISION THAT THEY WOULD STORM THE CAPITOL IN THE EFFORT TO STOP THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.

I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PRESIDENT MEANT.

AND AS YOU SAID, LIKE IT IS HARD TO KNOW WHAT WAS IN HIS MIND. IT IS HARD TO KNOW WHAT IS IN ANYBODY'S MIND, BUT WHAT WAS HIS GOAL IN SAYING THAT TO GENERAL MILLIE?OU KNOW, WE DO KNOW BECAE THE RECORD WITH TRUMP IS HE OFTEN SAYS IN PUBLIC WHAT HE SAYS IN PRIVATE.

REMEMBER THAT HE HAD ALREADY TWEETED OUT A COUPLE WEEKS PROTESTS AND SAYING IT WAS GOING TO BE QUOTE UNQUOTE WILD.

WILD.

TALKING ABOUT THE PROSPECTS OF IT.

THE NEW BOOKS HAVE ADDITIONAL REPORTING AS WELL FROM INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE.

TRUMP BEING BY THEIR ACCOUNTS EXCITED.

AND, YOU KNOW, REVELING IN THE MOMENT.

DID YOU HEAR THIS?

HE APPARENTLY SAID THE NIGHT BEFORE.

BECAUSE THERE WERE ALREADY CROWDS GATHERING THE NIGHT BEFORE THE PROTESTS IN SUPPORT OF HIM.

AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THOSE WHO HAVE ADVISED TRUMP OR BEEN CLOSE TO HIM HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID IS THAT DONALD TRUMP, ONE OF HIS PROBLEMS WITH DENOUNCING RACIST ACTIONS LIKE THE PROTESTS IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, IN 2017, WHICH WAS A FIRST SHOCKING MOMENT I THINK OF HIS PRESIDENCY, WAS THAT WHEN A CROWD IS CHANTING DONALD TRUMP'S NAME AND THEY ARE IN FAVOR OF HIM, NO MATTER HOW REPREHENSIBLE THEIR BELIEVES OR ACTIONS ARE, DONALD TRUMP JUST, HE CANNOT DENOUNCE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM.

THAT IS JUST, YOU KNOW, PART OF HIS PSYCHOLOGICAL WIRING.

EXPLAIN PART OF HIS EXCITEMENT.

IT DIDN'T MATTER WHO THESE PEOPLE WERE.

THEY WERE THERE TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP IN THIS QUIXOTIC AND SORT OF UNBELIEVABLE CRUSADE TO OVERTURN THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, TO OVERTURN AN AMERICAN ELECTION RESULT.

WELL, OR HE AGREES WITH THEM.

THERE IS THAT.

OF COURSE.

IT IS NOT JUST THAT HE LIKES IT.

BUT THAT HE AGREE WITHES THEM.

THAT IS MY QUESTION, DID GENERAL MILLEY BELIEVE THE PURPOSE WAS TO CAUSE SO MUCH CHAOS THAT HE COULD SOMEHOW IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW.

THAT HE COULD SOMEHOW VOID THE RESULTS OF ELECTION?

I THINK THAT WAS THE GOAL.

YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

THAT WAS WHY WE HAVE THIS UNBELIEVABLE SITUATION.

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF TRULY BELIEVE THAT IT WAS A NIGHTMARE SCENARIO, BUT A REALISTIC POSSIBILITY THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WAS ENGAGING IN WHAT HE CALLED A REICHSTAG MOMENT, AND WAS CREATING A CRISIS IN ORDER TO SOLVE WIT MARTIAL LAW AND A MILITARY COUP.

THAT'S CORRECT.

WHAT WERE THE GUARD RAILS HERE?

WAS THIS REALLY DEPENDENT UPON THE VIRTUE T TRAINING AND THE VALUES OF THIS HANDFUL OF LEADERS, OR NOT?

THAT'S I THINK THE THING THAT'S HORRIFYING LOT OF PEOPLE.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

YEAH.

MY VIEW ISES THAT HOW CLOSE WE CAME.

AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT THIS IS THE MOST TERRIFYING REPORTING IN ESSENCE THAT I'VE EVER DONE.

TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, YOU KNOW, SPENT MORE THAN SIX MONTHS WORRYING EVERY SINGLE DAY AND EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, THAT HE AND A SMALL HANDFUL OF, YOU KNOW, UNIFORMED MILITARY CHIEFS WERE ALL THAT STOOD BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND A COUP.

AND THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WAS IN FACT ONE OF THE MOST SERIOUS NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND YOU MENTION, YOU KNOW, THE JOINT CHIEFS MEETING.

THEY WERE MEETING MULTIPLE TIMES PRIVATELY ACCORDING TO MY REPORTING WITH GENERAL MILLEY AT THE PENTAGON AND DISCUSSING THIS SCENARIO OF WHAT TO DO.

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS WAS TELLING THEM, REALLY TO ME AN ECHO OF NIXON AND THE FINAL DAYS WHEN HIS DEFENSE SECRETARY JAMES SCHLESINGER WAS WARNING THE JOINT CHIEFS DON'T DO ANYTHING, YOU KNOW, DON'T GO OFF HALF-COCKED WITH ANY ORDERS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE WITHOUT CHECKING WITH ME FIRST OR HENRY KISSINGER THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

AND TO ME THESE MEETINGS AND THIS DISCUSSION THAT WERE EXPLICITLY BEING HELD, YOU KNOW, BE ON THE ALERT, MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO UNLAWFUL ORDERS, CALL ME FIRST WITH ANYTHING.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A REFLECTION OF SOMETHING DEEPLY TROUBLING AND OUR SYSTEM GOING INTO FULL RED ALERT MODE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF ATTENTION PAID TO THE FACT THAT AMONG THE INSURRECTIONISTS, THE MOB AT THE CAPITOL THERE WAS A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH MILITARY TRAINING AND WITH A POLICE WITH A LAW ENFORCEMENT BACKGROUND WHICH IS VERY DISTURBING.

ON THE OTHER HAND THERE IS OTHER DATA TO SHOW THE MILITARY ON THE WHOLE.

THERE WAS -- SUMMER LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION SHOWED THE MAGENTA OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL AND CERTAINLY THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF OFFICERS IF THE POLLS ARE TO BE BELIEVED DID NOT SUPPORT THE FORMER PRESIDENT, HAD NO INTENTION TO VOTE FOR HIM.

DOES THAT SUGGEST IN A WAY THAT THERE WAS A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER WITHIN THE MILITARY THAT PERHAPS WE'RE GIVING THEM CREDIT FOR?

THAT THE SYSTEM DID HOLD IN THAT SENSE, THAT THE VALUES THAT UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION THAT VALUE COUNTRY OVER REVEEM REALLY HAVE TAKEN HOLD IN THE MILITARY?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

SO I ABSOLUTELY DO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE CASE.

BUT REMEMBER, WHEN WE SAY THE SYSTEM WORKED, IT SHOULDN'T BE ALL THAT COMFORTING THAT WE HAD TO USE THE EMERGENCY PARTS OF THE SYSTEM.

YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO IT, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE SYSTEM IS FLASHING RED IN THIS UNPRECEDENTED WAY -- AND IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

I WAS JUST HAVING THIS DISCUSSION WITH VERY SENIOR OFFICIALS.

WHEN YOU ARE DOWN TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF DEALING WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN THIS WAY, BELIEVING THAT NIGHTMARE SCENARIOS, QUOTE/UNQUOTE ARE COMING OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND ACTIVATING ESSENTIALLY THIS KIND OF EMERGENCY PROTECTION FOR THE CONSTITUTION MEASURES, LIKE THIS IS NOT REASSURING.

TO SAY THAT THAT PART OF THE SYSTEM WORKED IS TO SAY JUST WHEN YOUR HOME ALARM WORKS.

YOU KNOW, IT STILL MEANS THAT YOUR HOME, SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO BREAK INTO IT.

RIGHT?

AND I THINK THAT IT WAS A VERY CLOSE CALL.

IN A WAY THAT SHOULD, YOU KNOW, SHOCK ALL OF US.

AND THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT.

REMEMBER IN TRUE ON THE ELECTORAL SIDE AS WELL.

THE FACT THAT THERE WERE OFFICIALS, ELECTION -- REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIALS IN GEORGIA OR IN MICHIGAN ON THE BOARD OF CANVASSERS WHO REFUSED TO GO ALONG WITH THE SORT OF FRAUDULENT CLAIMS OF ELECTION RIGGING.

IT SHOULD NEVER COME DOWN TO ONE GUY ON THE MICHIGAN BOARD OF CANVASSERS.

LIKE TO ME YOU CAN SAY EITHER THE SYSTEM WORKED THERE OR YOU CAN SAY, WOW.

YOU KNOW, OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE INDIVIDUALS WHO FILL THOSE ROLES.

WHAT IS THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAD TO SAY ABOUT ALL OF THESE STORIES?

I KNOW HE SPOKE TO A NUMBER OF JOURNALISTS OVER THE COURSE OF REPORTING AND I KNOW HE'S HAD A NUMBER OF THINGS TO SAY.

WHAT -- HOW HE HAS RESPONDED TO ALL THIS?

WELL, YOU KNOW, TRUMP IN HIS EXILE HAS BEEN BANNED FROM SOCIAL MEDIA FRAMEWORKS TWITTER AND FACEBOOK.

HE NOW PUTS OUT THESE VERY VOLUMINOUS E-MAILED STATEMENTS AND HE HAS HAD A LOT TO SAY IN THOSE STATEMENTS ABOUT THIS NEW ROUND OF BOOKS.

HE SAID WELL I DON'T KNOW WHY I BOTHERED WITH THESE JOURNALISTS ANYWAYS.

HE GAVE INTERVIEWS TO MANY JOURNALISTS INCLUDING I SHOULD SAY TO MY HUSBAND AND MYSELF EARLIER THIS SPRING.

HE COMMENTED ON THE NEWS ABOUT GENERAL MILLEY SEVERAL TIMES BASICALLY SAYING HE DIDN'T THINK MUCH OF GENERAL MILLEY.

HE DIDN'T LIKE HIM.

AND ODDLY CONFIRMING IN SOME WAYS SOME EXTRAORDINARY DETAILS.

HE SAID BASICALLY I ONLY APPOINTED GENERAL MILLEY IN AN ACT OF SPITE AGAINST MY PREVIOUS DEFENSE SECRETARY WHICH IN AND OF ITSELF AND ANY OTHER PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE BEEN A HUGE REVELATION.

HE ALSO CRITICIZED GENERAL MILLEY AND BASICALLY CONFIRMED THAT I SOURED ON THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF AFTER HE APOLOGIZED FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE JUNE 1 LAFAYETTE SQUARE PHOTO OP.

AND THEN I KNEW ESSENTIALLY THAT HE WASN'T LOYAL AND HE WASN'T REALLY ON THE TEAM AND HE WAS WEAK.

WHICH AS YOU KNOW IS ONE OF DONALD TRUMP'S FAVORITE EPITHETS AND CRITICISMS OF THOSE WHO DISAGREES WITH.

AND TO ME AGAIN THAT IS KIND OF REMARKABLE.

TRUMP IS ADMITTING THAT HE WANTED THE GENERAL TO HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THIS POLITICIZED ACTION AND THAT HE WAS INFURIATED WHEN THERE WAS AN APOLOGY OFFERED.

WHICH IS BASICALLY CONFIRMING ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THAT I REPORTED IN MY STORY IN THE 'NEW YORKER,' WHICH IS THAT MILLEY HAD HAD A CONFRONTATION WITH TRUMP IN THE OVAL OFFICE AFTER HE APOLOGIZED PUBLICLY.

AND TRUMP RANTED AT HIM AND SAID, YOU KNOW, HOW DARE YOU DO THAT.

AND HE SAID APOLOGIES ARE A SIGN OF WEAKNESS.

AND THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF SAID NOT WHERE I COME FROM.

YOU KNOW WHEN YOU DO WRONG IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US IT IS AN ETHIC AND A DUTY THAT IF THE UNIFORM HAS BEEN POLITICIZED, THAT IS OUR MOST SACRED THING.

AND HE SAID TO TRUMP, I DON'T EXPECT YOU TO UNDERSTAND.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS SO REVEALING ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

BECAUSE CLEARLY DONALD TRUMP DI.

SUSAN GLASSER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THANK YOU.

> AND VERY REVEALING INDEED.

BUILD AS THE BILLIONAIRE SPACE RACE.

TODAY JEFF BEZOS BECAME THE SECOND BILLIONAIRE TO BLAST TO THE EDGE OF SPACE ABOARD HIS OWN ROCKET JUST NINE DAYS AFTER VIRGIN GALACTIC'S RICHARD BRANSON.

THE BLUE ORIGIN FIGHT LASTS JUST OVER TEN MINUTES AND RICHEST MAN ON EARTH HAILED IT AS THE BEST DAY EVER.

HERE IS WHAT JEFF BEZOS TOLD ANDERSON COOPER AFTER HE LANDED BACK IN TEXAS.

THE THING THAT WAS MOST PROFOUND FOR ME WAS THE VIEW OF EARTH.

IT WAS MORE PROFOUND FOR ME THAN I EXPECTED.

WE SEE THIS GIANT ATMOSPHERE WHERE WE LIVE IN.

WE THINK IT IS BIG WHEN WE ARE ON THE GROUND.

YOU GET UP THERE.

IT IS SO TINY.

ANDERSON.

THE AS SMALL LITTLE THING AND IT IS FRAGILE.

AND IT KIND OF DRIVES HOME THAT POINT THAT WE KNOW THEORETICALLY THAT WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH.

BUT IT REALLY MAKES IT VERY POWERFUL AND REAL.

NOTHING LIKE A FIRSTHAND LESSON.

BUT ARE THESE MORE THAN WHAT MANY ARE CALLING JOYRIDES FOR THE WEALTHY.

WOULD MONEY OF THE TAX AVOIDING SUPER RICH, FOR INSTANCE, BE CLIMATE CRISIS, PANDEMICS,, ON EQUALITY?

BEZOS SAYS CRITICS ARE MOSTLY RIGHT BUT THAT WE HAVE TO DO BOTH.

ANOTHER GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND OR JUST FOR THE WEALTHY.

LEAVING WITH YOU TONIGHT.E AND THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE